Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They’re going back to those ideas because, I must say this is important . . .

A lot of people seem to enjoy what they had in GW1 over what they tried to do in GW2.

So, it’s a matter of “let’s keep the players we DO have”.

I think you are right, though I will say they still did it better in GW1 from my point of view. Perhaps in a bit more time it will be closer yet and more interesting to play again.

Gehenna.3625:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They’re going back to those ideas because, I must say this is important . . .

A lot of people seem to enjoy what they had in GW1 over what they tried to do in GW2.

So, it’s a matter of “let’s keep the players we DO have”.

I think you are right, though I will say they still did it better in GW1 from my point of view. Perhaps in a bit more time it will be closer yet and more interesting to play again.

Of course they did “it” better in GW1. GW1 was built for those purposes and those systems in mind as opposed to retrofitting something else to emulate it.

Test.8734:

Obtena.7952:

You’re not recognizing how MMO’s appeal to different players and I’ve already explained this to you. I’m not sure how your lack of comprehension makes me wrong but to be clear

See, you are so stuck on your preconceived notions that you cannot see the answer right in front of you.

You can choose to be pedantic; my answers to whatever your questions are don’t address the topic. I’m not going to let you lead me down tangents about why grinding is a ‘thing’ in MMO’s to go off topic. I already explained it actually; appealing to different kinds of players, sense of achievement from work, etc… I understand how that’s getting lost on younger generations but it’s still a ‘thing’ to some people, so I can understand why there is a small but non-mandatory part of this game that has it … and I understand why it shouldn’t affect anyone who isn’t willing to do it as well. You’re missing those things. I’m just going to bring you back to what Anet’s goals for the game are and how your position is not acknowledging it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Of course they did “it” better in GW1. GW1 was built for those purposes and those systems in mind as opposed to retrofitting something else to emulate it.

yeh that was kinda my point I guess.

I suppose I still have no idea what GW2 was built for exactly.

Test.8734:

Obtena.7952:

It’s not ONLY used by people that like to grind. It’s also used by people that understand that working for something is part of the reward system in any MMO.

In other words, people who want more of the same instead of wanting a MMO that breaks conventions.

Vayne.8563:

Just because gold is needed for a small portion of some of it, doesn’t mean you can buy it with gold. If you had nothing but gold, you couldn’t get it.

You need to make your arguments better. Saying you can get something without gold (which you said) is different from saying you cannot get something using gold (which you also said, and in which you were wrong).

Actually my argument is fine. Sometimes context is everything. Taking a sentence out of a bunch of sentences to try to prove a point only means you’ve lost the argument.

Actually, according to rules of debate if you rage quit over your opponent making no sense? They win.

To clarify, to avoid misunderstanding.

Devata’s complains is focused on the fact that everything comes back to gold. That is to say that you have to endlessly farm gold to buy what you want.

My response involves the newest armor and weapons in the game.

The ambrite weapons involve farming Drytop for both geodes and unidentified insect parts, as well as farming ambrite which can be done in the Silverwastes or Drytop. There is also a PvP reward track that provides what you need to make these weapons. Gold costs are minimal.

The Glorious Armor is a reward for PvPing and requires no gold to attain.

The carapace armor set requires farming in the Silverwastes for most of the components. There is a small gold cost involved, but it’s the kind of gold you’d naturally get by farming the rest of the stuff in the Silverwastes anyway. In other words, by the time you’ve gotten the other stuff you need, you’d have the gold without additional farming.

The luminscent armor comes from getting the carapace armor and requires no outlay of gold.

There are things in game that are being added that you can work for in game. There are also things you can get from black lion chests (particularly weapon sets) that would require gold farming in game to get. To be clear. I’ve never been in favor of this.

However there are still plenty of things you can get in game by playing.

I think the company is moving in the right direction. Naturally this type of shift takes time, but from what I can see, the game is improving in this area.

The irony; many of these new items that you can’t buy … require grinding. People aren’t understanding that it’s not the grinding they don’t like, it’s the way the game gives you ‘stuff’ and what kind of ‘stuff’ it gives you.

There is nothing grindy about unlocking traits; you do 1 event per trait per character, and all of the required events are different with no repeats, which means, you have to do each event only once. That is not a grind, for the definition of grind involves boring repetition, having to do the same thing over and over again. So where, prey tell, is the repetition in doing something once?

You may claim that it is not ‘once’ per trait, because you have to do it with each and every character, but that goes for just about everything in GW2; class lvl, personal story chapter, crafting lvl, armor and weapon acquisition, world map completion; all of these have to be done AGAIN each time you make a new character, and thus if you consider re-earning a trait to be ‘grinding’, then so must be everything involved in making and developing a new character.

However, it is your CHOICE to make a new character, your choice to lvl it to 80, choice to redo world completion, choice to complete personal story, and choice to re-earn a new set of top tier gear, and as such, your choice to complete again each event required to acquire its respective trait. This would thus fall under the ‘optional grind’ clause, as you are not required to do any of it.

Obtena.7952:

The irony; many of these new items that you can’t buy … require grinding. People aren’t understanding that it’s not the grinding they don’t like, it’s the way the game gives you ‘stuff’ and what kind of ‘stuff’ it gives you.

Well Devata, who I was responding to, doesn’t seem to have problems with farming. Her issue is the cash shop and how everything is all about gold acquisition.

Of course, the new stuff IS grindy, but then, it’s just a skin. It doesn’t prevent me from playing content.

Vayne.8563:

To clarify, to avoid misunderstanding.

Devata’s complains is focused on the fact that everything comes back to gold. That is to say that you have to endlessly farm gold to buy what you want.

My response involves the newest armor and weapons in the game.

The ambrite weapons involve farming Drytop for both geodes and unidentified insect parts, as well as farming ambrite which can be done in the Silverwastes or Drytop. There is also a PvP reward track that provides what you need to make these weapons. Gold costs are minimal.

The Glorious Armor is a reward for PvPing and requires no gold to attain.

The carapace armor set requires farming in the Silverwastes for most of the components. There is a small gold cost involved, but it’s the kind of gold you’d naturally get by farming the rest of the stuff in the Silverwastes anyway. In other words, by the time you’ve gotten the other stuff you need, you’d have the gold without additional farming.

The luminscent armor comes from getting the carapace armor and requires no outlay of gold.

There are things in game that are being added that you can work for in game. There are also things you can get from black lion chests (particularly weapon sets) that would require gold farming in game to get. To be clear. I’ve never been in favor of this.

However there are still plenty of things you can get in game by playing.

I think the company is moving in the right direction. Naturally this type of shift takes time, but from what I can see, the game is improving in this area.

If you truely believe this game is not 100% designed around a gold standard, you are wrong.

There might be fluff outside of it, but all GW2 is at its core is a monetary system embedded in a virtual economy. The whole GW2 B2P system only works because of its gold standard.

That is why most stuff is mostly hidden behind RNG, this is why we can’t have nice things as rewards.

This won’t change, because this is the way ANet makes money.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Vayne.8563:

To clarify, to avoid misunderstanding.

Devata’s complains is focused on the fact that everything comes back to gold. That is to say that you have to endlessly farm gold to buy what you want.

My response involves the newest armor and weapons in the game.

The ambrite weapons involve farming Drytop for both geodes and unidentified insect parts, as well as farming ambrite which can be done in the Silverwastes or Drytop. There is also a PvP reward track that provides what you need to make these weapons. Gold costs are minimal.

The Glorious Armor is a reward for PvPing and requires no gold to attain.

The carapace armor set requires farming in the Silverwastes for most of the components. There is a small gold cost involved, but it’s the kind of gold you’d naturally get by farming the rest of the stuff in the Silverwastes anyway. In other words, by the time you’ve gotten the other stuff you need, you’d have the gold without additional farming.

The luminscent armor comes from getting the carapace armor and requires no outlay of gold.

There are things in game that are being added that you can work for in game. There are also things you can get from black lion chests (particularly weapon sets) that would require gold farming in game to get. To be clear. I’ve never been in favor of this.

However there are still plenty of things you can get in game by playing.

I think the company is moving in the right direction. Naturally this type of shift takes time, but from what I can see, the game is improving in this area.

If you truely believe this game is not 100% designed around a gold standard, you are wrong.

There might be fluff outside of it, but all GW2 is at its core is a monetary system embedded in a virtual economy. The whole GW2 B2P system only works because of its gold standard.

That is why most stuff is mostly hidden behind RNG, this is why we can’t have nice things as rewards.

This won’t change, because this is the way ANet makes money.

I’m not arguing it is or isn’t. I’m saying the newest stuff available to us in game doesn’t depend on the gold standard. That’s fairly self explanatory.

Every business is generally centered on making money. In WoW it’s a monthly fee and a cash shop both. Clearly the gem store is a part of the game’s income. Clearly Anet is going to want to encourage gem store sales.

That said I don’t personally find the gem store that intrusive.

Obviously a balance has to exist between in game rewards and gem store rewards. For a while, the balance was in favor of the gem store but more recently that’s changed.

And that’s all I’m saying.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you truely believe this game is not 100% designed around a gold standard, you are wrong.

There might be fluff outside of it, but all GW2 is at its core is a monetary system embedded in a virtual economy. The whole GW2 B2P system only works because of its gold standard.

That is why most stuff is mostly hidden behind RNG, this is why we can’t have nice things as rewards.

This won’t change, because this is the way ANet makes money.

Which is why you aim for what you can afford, and the only time you get rewards that are nice is by pure chance and the fact that ANet wants to use you (special) little you as walking, talking advertising billboard for free! because if no one paid there wouldn’t be enough of the item around to entice other players to go for that item to look cool too.

The way you fix this ascend armor rubbish is to upgrade the stats of exotic to the same stats as ascended, which is the way it should have been to begin with so it was the same as getting obsidian armor in GW1, which by the way took me two years before I saw obsidian armor and when I did get it a few months later my account got hacked and lost it all, thankfully that horrid mistake of mine had a happy ending as I had good set of lovely friends who helped out to get another set back again within a couple of weeks.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

@Vayne

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

~

~

~

And with a lot of the new stuff there is a direct way to get it. That is to say you can get ambrite weapons without gold. You can get carapace armor without gold. You can get luminencent armor without gold. you can get the new PvP armor without gold.

Do you even play this game anymore?

Tigirius is wrong because there was RNG for many of the things you needed or you farmed gold to get them. He has a bug with the RNG in this game even though RNG existed in the last game. He believes he has an unlucky account. He has an hot button issue just like you do. Those issues are related but not the same.

So the last three armor sets added to this game you can actually get without spending gold, but yes, you have to farm for them. In fact, there’s no way to get them with gold.

You were saying?

I don’t play it as much anymore as I used to but yeah I do still play and I know you can get those items without gold, however now it’s with another currency so in stead of grinding gold people need to be grinding the new currency (like for the Ambrite) if they want that. Still not really a direct way. Nonetheless, the way it’s implemented is a step in the right direction but it’s far from optimal.

It’s basically like the dungeon token systems, and what I have always said about the dungeon token system is that they are great but only as a side thing! Your main goal for items in a dungeon should imho firstly be some special reward you get for completing it (maybe depending on the difficulty levels or on the paths), then there might be some special RNG drops in there you might wanna get, that should be like your second most reason to wanna do the dungeon (based on the way they put the items in there) and then the tokens would be a great thing your would earn along the way. Something you are not even really farming but you earn it while going for those other things. [I think the caparace stuff is an better example of something you earn along the way and the coat as a direct reward for completing something.]

So the tokens in the new map you can use to buy the skins are for sure better then ones that are only obtainable by grinding gold but are still far from an interesting hunt imho. It’s also not something you do earn along the way while trying to work towards other goals in the area, it’s something people are grinding for.

And personally I don’t even like the skins but that of course personal (while I think it’s easy to see why some of the BL weapons skins like the Tempest skins will be preferred more then the Ambrite skins). The things I do like still mainly require gold grinds.

But I agree not only since S2 but during the whole lifespan of the game it does look like they did try to improve the game on the part of rewards by putting some more rewards in the game, but at the same time they have also have been putting most fun items or good looking skins behind the gold-grind (this is where I blame the cash-shop focus again.. it’s not really like they had a choice then focusing on that thing to generate income). It’s not really like the gold-grind for such items has gotten any less or there are less items to grind gold for.. that also has still been going up. Meaning the grind (we talk about here) has not gone down simply because they also put some items in the game. They simply also have been putting some more stuff in the game itself (of what some behind another currency grind). What is nice for sure but does not solve the grind problem.

“Tigirius is wrong because there was RNG.” I personally have not a big problem with RNG as long as it’s within reasonable numbers. I prefer it over currency grinds! Like I just said the way I would structure a dungeon reward system is a reward for completing, then RNG and then tokens you earn along the way. So I am not really against RNG if it’s a part of the total reward system.

“You were saying?” That there is way to much grind (mainly gold grind) in this game.
Have been saying that all the time, you have not been paying attention?

Anyway, this is a good addition to the thread. Maybe Anet also thinks the grind get less if they also make some stuff available in-game, but that is of cource not the case. If I want to collect skins and special items the grind is still just as much there and if I want to hunt down for specific items changes are big those are still behind the gold-grind (or another currency grind).

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You also get them for doing the Living Story parts. I got all of mine doing that, plus the one guaranteed Coat box for beating the Vinewrath.

So . . . do you even play this game anymore, yourself?

Yep. I never said there isn’t a way to get them without gold; only that it’s not true that you cannot use gold to get them, as Vayne said.

You need to follow the argument better. Devata is saying the only way to get this stuff it to grind gold.

I’m saying you don’t have to grind gold to get this stuff. That is to say you have to play a lot of stuff in game to get this stuff. There is a NOMINAL gold fee associated with it which is very small. But many of the pieces you can get by just playing the story anyway and not paying any gold at all.

It’s nice to try to nitpick specific sentiments, but since my response was to Devata talking about farming gold to buy new stuff, this doesn’t really fall under that umbrella. And you can’t buy it with gold. Gold is one small component of what you need. You’re buying it with badges, which you can’t buy with gold.

Just because gold is needed for a small portion of some of it, doesn’t mean you can buy it with gold. If you had nothing but gold, you couldn’t get it.

Lets just keep it on the subject in stead of fighting with each other. Yes I talk about the grind, the only way to get something is with a currency it mainly being gold. So at that you are right Vayne the fact that you have one option where you also can spend partly gold is not what we talked about. But I did not day that specifically about ‘this stuff’ but in general about that is how you earn most. So there you are completely wrong.

I will add this about it.. While sure it’s not that much gold it’s the same as with some of the guild items you can buy with guild-tokens…. AND 5 gold. Then I am always like.. Come on.. really? Why always the gold again. I know the answer, gold drain but the problem is everything is already so much a gold grind we really don’t need a gold drain until they remove the grind.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You also get them for doing the Living Story parts. I got all of mine doing that, plus the one guaranteed Coat box for beating the Vinewrath.

So . . . do you even play this game anymore, yourself?

Yep. I never said there isn’t a way to get them without gold; only that it’s not true that you cannot use gold to get them, as Vayne said.

You need to follow the argument better. Devata is saying the only way to get this stuff it to grind gold.

I’m saying you don’t have to grind gold to get this stuff. That is to say you have to play a lot of stuff in game to get this stuff. There is a NOMINAL gold fee associated with it which is very small. But many of the pieces you can get by just playing the story anyway and not paying any gold at all.

It’s nice to try to nitpick specific sentiments, but since my response was to Devata talking about farming gold to buy new stuff, this doesn’t really fall under that umbrella. And you can’t buy it with gold. Gold is one small component of what you need. You’re buying it with badges, which you can’t buy with gold.

Just because gold is needed for a small portion of some of it, doesn’t mean you can buy it with gold. If you had nothing but gold, you couldn’t get it.

Lets just keep it on the subject in stead of fighting with each other. Yes I talk about the grind, the only way to get something is with a currency it mainly being gold. So at that you are right Vayne the fact that you have one option where you also can spend partly gold is not what we talked about. But I did not day that specifically about ‘this stuff’ but in general about that is how you earn most. So there you are completely wrong.

I will add this about it.. While sure it’s not that much gold it’s the same as with some of the guild items you can buy with guild-tokens…. AND 5 gold. Then I am always like.. Come on.. really? Why always the gold again. I know the answer, gold drain but the problem is everything is already so much a gold grind we really don’t need a gold drain until they remove the grind.

Having played other games without adequate gold sinks, I can tell you that inflation sucks a whole lot worse than gold sinks. Be that as it may, there’s still the idea that if you only want to make one or two weapons, or only one a single weight of armor, the grind isn’t that bad. In fact, you can get carapace armor just by going through the story, except for the chest, which isnt’ that hard to get either.

Reading through all this debate on ascended grind, it’s pretty obvious to me that the hefty amount of t5 mats is there since it’s just so abundant. I imagine it might have been harder to rebalance than it was to just make a huge sink. It did manage to do a few things too, like help make crafting profitable. All in all, the ascended grind really isn’t all that bad, but i still think they need a way for people to stat change this rather large investment.

I dont think arenanet needed to make ascended gear available outside of fractals. The gear is specifically for fractals…just let it drop in side of fractals. Then this entire debate is put to bed.

I dont think, for the rest of the game, ascended gear was needed. Levels and any sort of gear grind, no matter how small, is an illusion of content. Instead, they could have kept us engaged with interesting systems, encouragement to explore any part of the world we wanted on any given day(even places we have been to), etc.

Ive said it a dozen times on these forums… if we had a system for PvE/Dynamic Events similar to the WvW system (in that as a playerbase we need to successfully complete dynamic events across the entire world to receive buffs, etc) I think the game would have been better off.

cesmode.4257:

I dont think arenanet needed to make ascended gear available outside of fractals. The gear is specifically for fractals…just let it drop in side of fractals. Then this entire debate is put to bed.

Please educate me as it’s a little hard to look up on a wiki of what terms to define a search for it, do PvP players (note I am not one, and never will be) when they use a PvE geared character use those stats on their armor in PvP ?

If its the case that stats from PvE are imported to your PvP character then its very much more important than just fractals, I’d say its essential equipment if you was going to be playing PvP to have the best the game as to off.

@cesmode

If the gear was introduced to keep people playing, limiting it to Fractals would have made little sense.

Of course now, it would make less sense. How do you tell all the people who invested in making that stuff that it’s now only usable in Fractals?

Vayne.8563:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Vayne.8563:

~

~

I’m not arguing it is or isn’t. I’m saying the newest stuff available to us in game doesn’t depend on the gold standard. That’s fairly self explanatory.

Every business is generally centered on making money. In WoW it’s a monthly fee and a cash shop both. Clearly the gem store is a part of the game’s income. Clearly Anet is going to want to encourage gem store sales.

That said I don’t personally find the gem store that intrusive.

Obviously a balance has to exist between in game rewards and gem store rewards. For a while, the balance was in favor of the gem store but more recently that’s changed.

And that’s all I’m saying.

Nice to see that people finally come to the same conclusions as the ones I came to what resulted in my dislike for the cash-shop focus. Of course what you find intrusive is personal and depends on what you like. Btw WoW focuses on the monthly free not on the cash-shop. If GW2 would focus on expansions but also had a cash-shop things could be very different (that is a difference). And to Kaiyanwan this is not so much the B2P model as that suggest finance the game on game-sales but with them releasing the first expansion more then 2,5 years after release thats not the case, they are focusing on the cash-shop like a F2P model or let’s name it a cash-shop model. Again why I always ask for a true B2P model with more regular expansion.

You see, it’s not like I simply have some unfounded hate for the cash-shop. While that would be a easy way to dismiss my statements it’s not that simple. Thinks are connected to each other, I dislike the rewarding system / the grind what seems related to the cash-shop. First there was the temporary nature of the LD what I did at least partly also see as a way to get people to buy more of the stuff ‘before it’s gone’. Was that a false idea because they removed the temporary nature? Well when removing the temporary nature they added the fact that you have to pay gems to unlock missed episodes. I see this as a way to compensate what they figure they would lose by not having the temporary pressure for people to get there stuff. Meaning they did did think about in correlation of the temporary pressure and the gem-sales. Sure we will never know for sure but at least all the puzzle peaces seem to fit.
Even in those discussions I often said ‘they can remove this but as long as they focus on the cash-shop they will try to replace it with something else’.

What brings me to the to the base point if it comes to monetization. A sensitization does effect the game and imho a F2P or cash-shop model does so the most because the company must! find ways to get people to spend money in the game, meaning some decisions in-game are not based on ‘what is best for the game’ or ‘what is the most fun’ but on ‘how d we get people to spend money in the game’. Is a true B2P always free of this sort of bad decisions? No it’s possible they want to leave out elements just to release them in later expansions (we did see this recently with The Sims. Luckily people did not accept it) but overall I find it the least intrusive system in the game. The company can simply focus on building the best, most fun game and hopefully get rewarded by the sales of the game and expansions in stead of having to build the game around ‘how to get people to spend money’ resulting into game-mechanics like the gold-grind. What finally brings us back to the subject.

PS: “Devata’s complains is focused on the fact that everything comes back to gold. That is to say that you have to endlessly farm gold to buy what you want.” Most, not all. I am guessing you are using a hyperbole here what is fine by me but you always attack people who use hyperboles by saying it’s factually wrong what they say.

As previously mentioned, I broke my bank crafting one piece of ascended armor — just one! -- Zojja’s doublet — for my NPE ele. And this after weeks of salvaging every piece of light armor she (and my 13 other characters at the time) could get their hands on for the silk. But by golly, I finally got it done! Woo hoo. And it was kinda ugly… ahem.

During a profusely plethoric assault on a certain Pact base, her armor wound up getting broken. Guess which piece broke first?

That’s right! The danged ascended doublet!

/e crowd noise boo! hiss! freebird!

Must have got hold of some inferior silk. Probably that synthetic stuff they’re making in Rata Sum. Only buy Canthan silk, friends, or you might as well use potato sacks.

@Devata,

I haven’t come to the same conclusions you have. I think WoW depends more heavily on the cash shop than you think (plenty if their really cool mounts are only available in the cash shop) and I don’t think that this game has the issues you think.

That is to say I agree that the game is funded by the cash shop, but I don’t see the problems you do. I think your dislike of it magnifies a lot of the issues with it. I’ve almost never had a problem with the cash shop in this game.

Of course, I’ve played Turbine games and Perfect World before this, and that might be way.

Compared to most MMOs with a cash shop that have no subscription, this game still feels like a breath of fresh air.

Vayne.8563:

@Devata,

I haven’t come to the same conclusions you have. I think WoW depends more heavily on the cash shop than you think (plenty if their really cool mounts are only available in the cash shop) and I don’t think that this game has the issues you think.

That is to say I agree that the game is funded by the cash shop, but I don’t see the problems you do. I think your dislike of it magnifies a lot of the issues with it. I’ve almost never had a problem with the cash shop in this game.

Of course, I’ve played Turbine games and Perfect World before this, and that might be way.

Compared to most MMOs with a cash shop that have no subscription, this game still feels like a breath of fresh air.

Did a google search for you. WoW has a total of 425 mounts, there are 343 mounts available in-game so that excludes all the ones that where removed or the ones you get with expansion packs or the cash-shop or you get for inviting people to the game and so on. In there shop (what has 36 items in total!) they have 9 mounts! And we can have different tastes I am also willing to agree most of those 9 are cool but still some of the coolest are in fact available in-game. I once made a list of all mounts I might want to collect in WoW, only 1 was in the cash-shop. (It where about 80 mounts.. you see that’s what I like, hunting down these sorts of things in the game)

Now imagine we do the same with mini’s (as you have them in both games). Really wanna go argue with me that WoW’s cash-shop is similar to GW2’s? Come on Vayne. You might want to defend Anet’s approach but lets try not to fool each other.

If you focus on the cash-shop to earn most of your money it will have more effect on the game then if you don’t.

“I’ve almost never had a problem with the cash shop in this game.” Well I run into them all the time. You see what I just said about those 80 mounts, I like to hunt down in WoW (or special ranger pets, or toys, or mini’s or other skins). I did try to do the same in GW2.. Oow he has a cool mini oow need to grind gold for it. Oow nice weapon skin.. oow Black lion scrap skin. If I was to make a list of 80 cosmetics I would like in GW2 I would be very lucky if 10 would be available in a viable way ingame without some boring grind. And thats just how it is, that has nothing to do with opinions or seeing problems magnified. That’s just a fact. And when of those 80 things 10 are reasonable to get the whole fun of collecting them is gone (including those 10) at least for me. If it was the other way around I could be fine with it.

I am not saying ‘compared to other cash-shop games’ this game is bad. I say for a B2P game this game is bad. Simply because I expect a B2P game to focus on the game / expansions to earn money (like GW1) and so have very cash-shop influence while I expect a F2P / cash-shop game to focus on the cash-shop. You see, there is a reason I do not play those other games but I did come to GW2. So that comparison does not make it any better.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

@Devata,

I haven’t come to the same conclusions you have. I think WoW depends more heavily on the cash shop than you think (plenty if their really cool mounts are only available in the cash shop) and I don’t think that this game has the issues you think.

That is to say I agree that the game is funded by the cash shop, but I don’t see the problems you do. I think your dislike of it magnifies a lot of the issues with it. I’ve almost never had a problem with the cash shop in this game.

Of course, I’ve played Turbine games and Perfect World before this, and that might be way.

Compared to most MMOs with a cash shop that have no subscription, this game still feels like a breath of fresh air.

Did a google search for you. WoW has a total of 425 mounts, there are 343 mounts available in-game so that excludes all the ones that where removed (I think) or the ones you get with expansions pack or the cash-shop or you get for inviting people to the game and so on. In there shop (what has 36 items in total!) they have 9 mounts! And we can have different tastes I am also willing to agree most of those 9 are cool but still some of the coolest are in fact available in-game. I once made a list of all mounts I might want to get in WoW and only one of them was in the cash-shop, two where removed at some point, 1 was in the cash-hop. (It where about 80 mounts.. you see thats what I like, hunting down these sorts of things in the game)

Now imagine we do the same with mini’s (as you have them in both games). Really wanna go argue with me that WoW’s cash-shop is similar to GW2’s? Come on Vayne. You might want to defend Anet’s approach but lets try to fool each other.

If you focus on the cash-shop to earn most of your money it will have more effect on the game then if you don’t.

“I’ve almost never had a problem with the cash shop in this game.” Well I run into them all the time. You see what I just said about those 80 mounts I like to hunt down in WoW (or special ranger pets, or toys, or mini’s or other skins). I did try to do the same in GW2.. Oow he has a cool mini oow need to grind gold for it. Oow nice weapon skin.. oow Black lion scrap skin. If I was to make a list of 80 cosmetics I would like in GW2 I would be happy is 10 would be available in a viable way ingame without some boring currency grind mainly gold. And thats just how it is, that has nothing to do with opinions or seeing problems magnified. That’s just a fact. And when of those 80 things 10 are reasonable to get the whole fun of collecting them is gone (including those 10) at least for me. If it was the other way around I could be fine with it.

I am not saying ‘compared to other cash-shop games’ this game is bad. I say for a B2P game this game is bad. Simply because I expect a B2P game to focus on the game / expansions to earn money (like GW1) while I expect a F2P / cash-shop game to focus on the cash-shop. You see, there is a reason I do not play those other games but I did come to GW2. So that comparison does not make it any better.

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t get them with gold alone. And the amount of gold you need to get them is neglible. Also many of them aren’t sold.

Excuses (again), so you won’t admit you are wrong (again)?

And he is not wrong
You can unlock the Crapase Armor from the PvP track for free .
NO GOLD … NONE … ZIPP …

If you dont know something , about what things lies INSIDE the game , dont try to lecture us ….

Or should i try to make a ’’sig’’ about it ?

Devata.6589:

I am not saying ‘compared to other cash-shop games’ this game is bad. I say for a B2P game this game is bad. Simply because I expect a B2P game to focus on the game / expansions to earn money (like GW1) and so have very cash-shop influence while I expect a F2P / cash-shop game to focus on the cash-shop. You see, there is a reason I do not play those other games but I did come to GW2. So that comparison does not make it any better.

I’m sure ‘private servers’ are result of some of those choices companies have made above.

Vayne.8563:

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I don’t know but it seems to me that the WoW players, of which there are many and I am not one of them, are willing to fork out cash for that game.

So is Blizzard more greedy or are their customers less stingy? Apparently these players enjoy the game to the point of having no issue spending money on it even for something as a shiny horse.

And correct me if I am wrong, there are also content updates in WoW between the major expansions. Blizzard certainly knows how to make money with WoW, but I don’t think they would be successful if it was just them being greedy. Perhaps they are simply able to create an experience where people enjoy the game to the point of spending some extra cash on it. I never liked WoW but I can’t argue with those numbers and it seems to simple to just pin the pricing down to greed.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I don’t know but it seems to me that the WoW players, of which there are many and I am not one of them, are willing to fork out cash for that game.

So is Blizzard more greedy or are their customers less stingy? Apparently these players enjoy the game to the point of having no issue spending money on it even for something as a shiny horse.

And correct me if I am wrong, there are also content updates in WoW between the major expansions. Blizzard certainly knows how to make money with WoW, but I don’t think they would be successful if it was just them being greedy. Perhaps they are simply able to create an experience where people enjoy the game to the point of spending some extra cash on it. I never liked WoW but I can’t argue with those numbers and it seems to simple to just pin the pricing down to greed.

There are precious few content updates between expansions. That’s why people play for three months and then subs fall off until the next expansion comes out.

But don’t make the mistake that WOW has these numbers because it’s such a great game. It is definitely an addictive game, though, I’ll give it that.

I have two sons that are subscribed to WoW again, and they’re bored already. But this happens every time an expansion comes out. They buy it. They subscribe to it. One of my sons doesn’t even like it that much but he does it anyway. He ends up not playing more than he plays…but he still subscribes.

WoW does advertise heavily and they have tons of people vested in the game for years on end, so sure, they have that advantage. But they don’t have regular content updates, trust me on that.

There’s also plenty of grind. Ask people about faction grind one day.

Vayne.8563:

There are precious few content updates between expansions. That’s why people play for three months and then subs fall off until the next expansion comes out.

But don’t make the mistake that WOW has these numbers because it’s such a great game. It is definitely an addictive game, though, I’ll give it that.

I have two sons that are subscribed to WoW again, and they’re bored already. But this happens every time an expansion comes out. They buy it. They subscribe to it. One of my sons doesn’t even like it that much but he does it anyway. He ends up not playing more than he plays…but he still subscribes.

WoW does advertise heavily and they have tons of people vested in the game for years on end, so sure, they have that advantage. But they don’t have regular content updates, trust me on that.

There’s also plenty of grind. Ask people about faction grind one day.

And yet with all of that it is the most successful MMO of all and people keep coming back.

My guess is that they do not need everybody to be playing all the time because they can afford people to come and go as they do. Clearly the game is so old that it also is not so expensive to build new content for as new games do, so it is a great money maker.

I would not be surprised if their new MMO that went by the name Titan has been delayed simply because there is no need for them to replace WoW.

I am guessing that these regular content updates that people talk about are not needed there.

Any MMO will bore most people at some point I would think. Constantly being kept busy by a game is an impossible feat unless you accept repetition and enjoy it.

I do think though that WoW has a lot more to offer than GW2, aside from whether or not you like the game and its content.

No matter the semantics of words like grind and farming, I think that for a lot of people GW2 is boring because of senseless repetition being the main activity for level 80s. I call it senseless at least.

WoW has plenty of that as well, but that little thing called progression, does make a difference for a lot of people I think.

That’s why I think that a game without endgame progression needs other meaningful activities and for me it was clear that GW2 lacks in quality alternatives for this. You seem to be enjoying the game still. That will forever remain a mystery to me

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

There are precious few content updates between expansions. That’s why people play for three months and then subs fall off until the next expansion comes out.

But don’t make the mistake that WOW has these numbers because it’s such a great game. It is definitely an addictive game, though, I’ll give it that.

I have two sons that are subscribed to WoW again, and they’re bored already. But this happens every time an expansion comes out. They buy it. They subscribe to it. One of my sons doesn’t even like it that much but he does it anyway. He ends up not playing more than he plays…but he still subscribes.

WoW does advertise heavily and they have tons of people vested in the game for years on end, so sure, they have that advantage. But they don’t have regular content updates, trust me on that.

There’s also plenty of grind. Ask people about faction grind one day.

And yet with all of that it is the most successful MMO of all and people keep coming back.

My guess is that they do not need everybody to be playing all the time because they can afford people to come and go as they do. Clearly the game is so old that it also is not so expensive to build new content for as new games do, so it is a great money maker.

I would not be surprised if their new MMO that went by the name Titan has been delayed simply because there is no need for them to replace WoW.

I am guessing that these regular content updates that people talk about are not needed there.

Any MMO will bore most people at some point I would think. Constantly being kept busy by a game is an impossible feat unless you accept repetition and enjoy it.

I do think though that WoW has a lot more to offer than GW2, aside from whether or not you like the game and its content.

No matter the semantics of words like grind and farming, I think that for a lot of people GW2 is boring because of senseless repetition being the main activity for level 80s. I call it senseless at least.

WoW has plenty of that as well, but that little thing called progression, does make a difference for a lot of people I think.

That’s why I think that a game without endgame progression needs other meaningful activities and for me it was clear that GW2 lacks in quality alternatives for this. You seem to be enjoying the game still. That will forever remain a mystery to me

Their new MMO was scrapped completely and the resources used in it are making a new game, an FPS I think. They currently don’t have a new MMORPG planned AFAIK.

I don’t believe that most people who play WoW do end game progression. They do, however, level their characters to max level. I can’t prove this, but I believe it.

But there’s definitely grind there, that’s my point. And the grind there never really ends.

Vayne.8563:

But there’s definitely grind there, that’s my point. And the grind there never really ends.

Oh I agree completely, but in spite of all that the game is still successful and people keep buying these expansions by the millions.

So perhaps grind itself isn’t the problem?

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

@Devata,

I haven’t come to the same conclusions you have. I think WoW depends more heavily on the cash shop than you think (plenty if their really cool mounts are only available in the cash shop) and I don’t think that this game has the issues you think.

That is to say I agree that the game is funded by the cash shop, but I don’t see the problems you do. I think your dislike of it magnifies a lot of the issues with it. I’ve almost never had a problem with the cash shop in this game.

Of course, I’ve played Turbine games and Perfect World before this, and that might be way.

Compared to most MMOs with a cash shop that have no subscription, this game still feels like a breath of fresh air.

Did a google search for you. WoW has a total of 425 mounts, there are 343 mounts available in-game so that excludes all the ones that where removed (I think) or the ones you get with expansions pack or the cash-shop or you get for inviting people to the game and so on. In there shop (what has 36 items in total!) they have 9 mounts! And we can have different tastes I am also willing to agree most of those 9 are cool but still some of the coolest are in fact available in-game. I once made a list of all mounts I might want to get in WoW and only one of them was in the cash-shop, two where removed at some point, 1 was in the cash-hop. (It where about 80 mounts.. you see thats what I like, hunting down these sorts of things in the game)

Now imagine we do the same with mini’s (as you have them in both games). Really wanna go argue with me that WoW’s cash-shop is similar to GW2’s? Come on Vayne. You might want to defend Anet’s approach but lets try to fool each other.

If you focus on the cash-shop to earn most of your money it will have more effect on the game then if you don’t.

“I’ve almost never had a problem with the cash shop in this game.” Well I run into them all the time. You see what I just said about those 80 mounts I like to hunt down in WoW (or special ranger pets, or toys, or mini’s or other skins). I did try to do the same in GW2.. Oow he has a cool mini oow need to grind gold for it. Oow nice weapon skin.. oow Black lion scrap skin. If I was to make a list of 80 cosmetics I would like in GW2 I would be happy is 10 would be available in a viable way ingame without some boring currency grind mainly gold. And thats just how it is, that has nothing to do with opinions or seeing problems magnified. That’s just a fact. And when of those 80 things 10 are reasonable to get the whole fun of collecting them is gone (including those 10) at least for me. If it was the other way around I could be fine with it.

I am not saying ‘compared to other cash-shop games’ this game is bad. I say for a B2P game this game is bad. Simply because I expect a B2P game to focus on the game / expansions to earn money (like GW1) while I expect a F2P / cash-shop game to focus on the cash-shop. You see, there is a reason I do not play those other games but I did come to GW2. So that comparison does not make it any better.

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I see what you did there. Changing the subject to what is more greedy to end with a ‘in the end I am right’ as if that was the subject. Yes WoW is more greedy, thats what I dislike about WoW. But you where talking about there cash-shop before, saying how intrusive that was, what is simply untrue, just as you now say they don’t have bigger patches in-between what is also untrue. The game itself has less or really no influence from the cash-shop and there is less grind (like the type we see in Gw2) for these type of items, you earn by far most of them directly ingame.. what is what we where talking about, not what company was more greedy.

This might all be very interesting but in the end the discussion is about the grind in GW2 (or the sub discussion between us, the cash-shop involvement between them… btw a sub-discussion you started, not me). And then GW2 still is very grindy if it comes to those things, the cash-shop is very likely to blame for it. Therefor the solution likely also lays in there payment model.

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I don’t know but it seems to me that the WoW players, of which there are many and I am not one of them, are willing to fork out cash for that game.

So is Blizzard more greedy or are their customers less stingy? Apparently these players enjoy the game to the point of having no issue spending money on it even for something as a shiny horse.

And correct me if I am wrong, there are also content updates in WoW between the major expansions. Blizzard certainly knows how to make money with WoW, but I don’t think they would be successful if it was just them being greedy. Perhaps they are simply able to create an experience where people enjoy the game to the point of spending some extra cash on it. I never liked WoW but I can’t argue with those numbers and it seems to simple to just pin the pricing down to greed.

There are precious few content updates between expansions. That’s why people play for three months and then subs fall off until the next expansion comes out.

But don’t make the mistake that WOW has these numbers because it’s such a great game. It is definitely an addictive game, though, I’ll give it that.

I have two sons that are subscribed to WoW again, and they’re bored already. But this happens every time an expansion comes out. They buy it. They subscribe to it. One of my sons doesn’t even like it that much but he does it anyway. He ends up not playing more than he plays…but he still subscribes.

WoW does advertise heavily and they have tons of people vested in the game for years on end, so sure, they have that advantage. But they don’t have regular content updates, trust me on that.

There’s also plenty of grind. Ask people about faction grind one day.

Those sons that also stopped playing GW2? So maybe the lack of updates you talk about (The ones GW2 does have) is not the reason?

If I read this I would almost conclude the solution would be more regular expansions… Oow wait, thats what I have been suggesting all the time.

Devata.6589:

Those sons that also stopped playing GW2? So maybe the lack of updates you talk about (The ones GW2 does have) is not the reason?

If I read this I would almost conclude the solution would be more regular expansions… Oow wait, thats what I have been suggesting all the time.

Orrrrr , they wanted to give 2nd chance to WoW , to remember the good old times (like myself) :P

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Orrrrr , they wanted to give 2nd chance to WoW , to remember the good old times (like myself) :P

I would have to ask though….would you feel equally inclined to give WoW a second or third chance if there was not such an occasion from time to time as a new expansion?

It seems to me that expansions are key moments for people to give a game another go.

Vayne.8563:

@cesmode

If the gear was introduced to keep people playing, limiting it to Fractals would have made little sense.

Of course now, it would make less sense. How do you tell all the people who invested in making that stuff that it’s now only usable in Fractals?

My whole point is that creating a treadmill, however slight even in the case of GW2 ascended gear, is a fallacy.

There are more interesting ways to keep people playing and entertained than introducing more levels or a new tier of gear.

D3 is a decent example. They released their first expansion, and since then they have implimented seasons, new sets, new pieces of gear to acquire that do different things and promote different gameplay and build diversity, but they havent increased the level cap since they released their first expansion. Season 2 is right around the corner with new sets and new legionaries to create more build diversity.

Its just an example that you dont need to climb the level ladder or stat ladder in order to keep people playing.

Outside of fractals, ascended gear is not needed…so why is it available outside of fractals? If there is a pocket of players that wanted that sort of progression, fine. Give them fractals, and within the fractals themselves make the ascended gear available. Injecting ascended gear into the rest of the game served no purpose because the true benefit of ascended gear can only be felt in fractals.

I hope im explaining myself clearly.

As to your second point, obviously. It can’t be undone now. Im saying this is how I think it should have been handled from the start.

aerial.7021:

cesmode.4257:

I dont think arenanet needed to make ascended gear available outside of fractals. The gear is specifically for fractals…just let it drop in side of fractals. Then this entire debate is put to bed.

Please educate me as it’s a little hard to look up on a wiki of what terms to define a search for it, do PvP players (note I am not one, and never will be) when they use a PvE geared character use those stats on their armor in PvP ?

If its the case that stats from PvE are imported to your PvP character then its very much more important than just fractals, I’d say its essential equipment if you was going to be playing PvP to have the best the game as to off.

My point was this:

There was a pocket of players that wanted this sort of progression.
Seemingly endless fractals was a nice way to go, with a fractal-only stat(Agony Resistance) on each ascended piece. Agony only exists in fractals and you need AR to climb the fractal levels.

Since Agony only exists in Fractals, wouldn’t it have made more sense to only make ascended gear available in fractals, and only USABLE in fractals? Im sorry, I think that last point I was not clear in my first post. Only usable in fractals.

Outside of fractals, you would still use exotic gear and would be unable to use Ascended gear.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I don’t know but it seems to me that the WoW players, of which there are many and I am not one of them, are willing to fork out cash for that game.

So is Blizzard more greedy or are their customers less stingy? Apparently these players enjoy the game to the point of having no issue spending money on it even for something as a shiny horse.

And correct me if I am wrong, there are also content updates in WoW between the major expansions. Blizzard certainly knows how to make money with WoW, but I don’t think they would be successful if it was just them being greedy. Perhaps they are simply able to create an experience where people enjoy the game to the point of spending some extra cash on it. I never liked WoW but I can’t argue with those numbers and it seems to simple to just pin the pricing down to greed.

WoW has content every three months, mostly in the form of a raid (which they time gate nowadays so players don’t burn through it) and maybe a dungeon or two or a new area. That’s the usual content update. Once in a rare while they add a new system (I think twitter is the new one now) or something else big.

But they have never been good with the lack of content between xpacs. What was it between MoP and WoD? A year+? Then there was the lack between wotlk and cata….

And so wait, so now “grinding” for mounts in WoW isn’t “grinding?” I could’ve sworn it was. I kept going for that tiger mount every reset and never got it. Then there was the lightsaber sword that dropped off of a rarespawn that you had to check every so often, see if it was there, pray someone else wasn’t near to steal or backstab (if on PvP), kill it, then hope RNG was good to you.

I mean, if that’s the type of system we are looking for….wtf?

Serophous.9085:

WoW has content every three months, mostly in the form of a raid (which they time gate nowadays so players don’t burn through it) and maybe a dungeon or two or a new area. That’s the usual content update. Once in a rare while they add a new system (I think twitter is the new one now) or something else big.

Which arguably is more than some other games do if you add in the expansions but even if there are low times between expansions as you say, it hasn’t really hurt WoW since people still buy the expacs and play WoW. Just not all the time but that doesn’t seem to be a problem.

Serophous.9085:

But they have never been good with the lack of content between xpacs. What was it between MoP and WoD? A year+? Then there was the lack between wotlk and cata….

Sure and people came back and Blizzard sold millions of copies again.

Serophous.9085:

And so wait, so now “grinding” for mounts in WoW isn’t “grinding?” I could’ve sworn it was. I kept going for that tiger mount every reset and never got it. Then there was the lightsaber sword that dropped off of a rarespawn that you had to check every so often, see if it was there, pray someone else wasn’t near to steal or backstab (if on PvP), kill it, then hope RNG was good to you.

I dunno who said it wasn’t grinding but that wasn’t me. I just said that apparently plenty of people are ok with grinding as long as it feels like a reward. I get the feeling that grinding in GW2 just doesn’t feel rewarding in the end. I think the problem lies more in that corner than in the question whether or not there is grind in a game.

Serophous.9085:

I mean, if that’s the type of system we are looking for….wtf?

Well, people do tend to like the proverbial carrot. Not everybody of course but a big MMO tends to need to cater to various groups of players and not just one. Whether you call it a carrot or not, a lot of people need goals with steps and variety at the same time. There has to be a sense of direction. At the same time it should be possible to step away from that. I think GW2 lacks the former. When I leveled the characters I did a lot of it just felt senseless going from one zone to the next, and the next and the next and the next.

I prefer endgame progression now because it means I have something to strive for. It’s about gearing up but also about beating content like tricky boss fights and such and get a sense of accomplishment that way. Is everybody like that? No.

But there are a lot of people who do like that. And sorry but the boss fights in GW2 are not exactly interesting. I am sure there are exceptions but what I saw in GW2 was bosses with big HP and armour to extend the length of the fight who throw around tons of circles and having insta kill abilities. Basically dodge and ress bosses. I don’t mind a couple of bosses like that but it’s not really exciting in my book.

Maybe you really hate endgame progression in general, maybe you haven’t taken breaks so that you ended up hating it. Either way. Anet have shut the door on endgame progression beyond what there is when it comes to gear and levels. So it’s still about grinding ascended then? I dunno. It seems if they really want to bring home the no grind policy they should remove stat tiers from level 80 gear and let it all be about cosmetics, not stats.

What do you think though. Would there be an outrage if all level 80 gear would get ascended stats?

So now the thread is arguing whether cash shops are “intrusive” or not? Here you go. It’s subjective.

As far as repeating content (possible perceived grind) for rewards, some people prefer:

1) RNG based rewards with specific mobs or types of mobs dropping Desirable Item
2) Incremental rewards, where you collect tokens and buy Desirable Item from a vendor

GW2 has both, but it also has

3) Get Desirable Item from drops which can happen everywhere
4) Craft Desirable Item using materials collected or bought

There are drawbacks to all 4 systems.

1. Accessibility of content; the rarity of the item depends on the relative inaccessibility of content. For some people rarity = desirability and an item can stop being desirable if everyone has it. If the content is inaccessible, then those who want it but cannot or will not access the content are unhappy.
2. Set the required token count too high and people complain. Set it too low and people get the item quickly and then complain they want something else to play for.
3. Massive drop tables. If a large variety of items can be gained from “everywhere,” the chances of getting the one item a player might want are reduced.
4. Can have any of the above drawbacks depending on the nature of the various items one needs to collect. GW2’s implementation requires RNG drops (precursors, T6 Blood, Scales, etc. if farmed) which , while not available everywhere, are available in enough areas that the drop tables for them result in very small chances to get some items. It also has the added drawback of the sheer number of materials needed to craft Ascended or Legendary items. I know a couple of people who are in the process of collecting to make a legendary weapon. Both are using a spreadsheet to track what they need to get. One even made a second sheet to track what had been acquired, because of how depressing the first list was.

But it’s neither “grind mob kills to level” nor “grind dungeons/raids for BiS gear over and over” so I guess it’s all good… :/

Vayne.8563:

I think WoW depends more heavily on the cash shop than you think

…what?

There are 431 mounts if we don’t count the retired and thus unobtainable ones. 9 of those come from the cash shop. 3 from promotions. 5 from the recruit-a-friend program. 17 from the trading card game which has been discontinued a while ago.

That means that if you don’t wish to pay, you can earn 397 mounts. 402 mounts if the recruit-a-friend program is available in your country.

There are 692 mini pets if we don’t count the retired and thus unobtainable ones. 15 of those comes from the cash shop. 35 from promotions. 4 from the recruit-a-friend program. 15 from the trading card game.

That means that if you don’t wish to pay, have never attended any Blizzard events and have never participated in any promotion, you can collect 638 pets. 642 if the recruit-a-friend program is available in your country.

So how many mini pets come from the gem store as opposed to the game in GW2?

/edit – forgot about some pets

Loiterer.4235:

So how many mini pets come from the gem store as opposed to the game in GW2?

/Log in
/push ’’O’’
/go ’’Others’’ and the ’’Minis’’
/count 182

/go in ‘’Gem Store ’’ section
/count 10

Bored to look in the Wiki about limited pets from the Achivement-2week stories or the Limited edition Gem store sale .

/now i am truly bored to check how many 30+ lvl istances set from the start of the existed till now , VS the gem store salees … sorry …

And calcualate all that in a 10 year game that just started to push their Store in this x-pack , vs a 2,5 game

Gehenna.3625:

What do you think though. Would there be an outrage if all level 80 gear would get ascended stats?

It would be better , to give more options to aquire the Rings+Earings+Amuelt and let the 6-piece gear to grind alot – waste a lot of gold .
If they waste their gold in the Crafting , then the Gold vs Gem ratio will be still low , for the rest of the population and not see somthing like :
‘’you need 100 gold for 100 gems’’ in the near future

Edit" Or atleast , Rings+Earings+Amuelt + 2 set pieces , are almost be extremly easy to get like exotics

Killthehealersffs.8940:

/Log in
/push ’’O’’
/go ’’Others’’ and the ’’Minis’’
/count 182

/go in ‘’Gem Store ’’ section
/count 10

Bored to look in the Wiki about limited pets from the Achivement-2week stories or the Limited edition Gem store sale .

“Too bored to look. Will just throw out random data.”

That is a great way to win a debate.

Gem Shop – 224

Set 1 Pack – 54
Set 2 Pack – 46
Set 3 Pack – 49
Black Lion Chest – 5
Southsun Crate – 2
Consortium Chest – 3
Other – 65

Promotions – 7

Collector’s Edition – 1
Hall of Monuments – 4
PvP / Giveaway – 2
Birthday Gift – 1

Game – 50 (actually 38)

Mystic Forge – 17
Laurels – 8
Boss Loot – 3
Guild Mission – 3
Events – 16
Achievements – 3

Keep in mind that for the Mystic Forge ones to work, you need to melt pets that DO come from the gem shop with the exception of the Winterday toys (5) so in theory the number is 50, in practice it’s 38.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

It would be better , to give more options to aquire the Rings+Earings+Amuelt and let the 6-piece gear to grind alot – waste a lot of gold .
If they waste their gold in the Crafting , then the Gold vs Gem ratio will be still low , for the rest of the population and not see somthing like :
‘’you need 100 gold for 100 gems’’ in the near future

Edit" Or atleast , Rings+Earings+Amuelt + 2 set pieces , are almost be extremly easy to get like exotics

I also think it would be better to have stat neutrality at level 80. Just wondering if it would upset a lot of people. The thing is they are clearly coming back to GW1 style approaches but only partially. That might not be as successful unless they completely take stat differences out of level 80 gear.

Loiterer.4235:

Killthehealersffs.8940:

/Log in
/push ’’O’’
/go ’’Others’’ and the ’’Minis’’
/count 182

/go in ‘’Gem Store ’’ section
/count 10

Bored to look in the Wiki about limited pets from the Achivement-2week stories or the Limited edition Gem store sale .

“Too bored to look. Will just throw out random data.”

That is a great way to win a debate.

Hey !
I tried !
(But still in the Ah version there are 182 … did i calculate wrong ?)
Atleast i dont have to pay 15 euro per months (to access the servers) + the real money in the Store :P
But rather farm some dungeons if i need to , and not drop a single penny to the company (uneployed) :P

Serophous.9085:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I don’t know but it seems to me that the WoW players, of which there are many and I am not one of them, are willing to fork out cash for that game.

So is Blizzard more greedy or are their customers less stingy? Apparently these players enjoy the game to the point of having no issue spending money on it even for something as a shiny horse.

And correct me if I am wrong, there are also content updates in WoW between the major expansions. Blizzard certainly knows how to make money with WoW, but I don’t think they would be successful if it was just them being greedy. Perhaps they are simply able to create an experience where people enjoy the game to the point of spending some extra cash on it. I never liked WoW but I can’t argue with those numbers and it seems to simple to just pin the pricing down to greed.

WoW has content every three months, mostly in the form of a raid (which they time gate nowadays so players don’t burn through it) and maybe a dungeon or two or a new area. That’s the usual content update. Once in a rare while they add a new system (I think twitter is the new one now) or something else big.

But they have never been good with the lack of content between xpacs. What was it between MoP and WoD? A year+? Then there was the lack between wotlk and cata….

And so wait, so now “grinding” for mounts in WoW isn’t “grinding?” I could’ve sworn it was. I kept going for that tiger mount every reset and never got it. Then there was the lightsaber sword that dropped off of a rarespawn that you had to check every so often, see if it was there, pray someone else wasn’t near to steal or backstab (if on PvP), kill it, then hope RNG was good to you.

I mean, if that’s the type of system we are looking for….wtf?

There are indeed a few very hard to get ones but also a lot more doable or enough that simply reward for completing content. That is the same in GW2, there are some very hard to get (as in, require a lot of gold grind) cosmetics and less hard (less gold to grind) cosmetics. The difference is that it’s mostly rewarded direct from the content while in many cases grinding gold is also an option. In GW2 grinding gold is usually the only option. So yes that would be the type of system we are looking for.. Not with only the extremely hard to get because very low RNG, the ones you are now pointing to, but the complete total system that has a nice mix and also the RNG ones should all be doable.

IndigoSundown.5419:

So now the thread is arguing whether cash shops are “intrusive” or not? Here you go. It’s subjective.

As far as repeating content (possible perceived grind) for rewards, some people prefer:

1) RNG based rewards with specific mobs or types of mobs dropping Desirable Item
2) Incremental rewards, where you collect tokens and buy Desirable Item from a vendor

GW2 has both, but it also has

3) Get Desirable Item from drops which can happen everywhere
4) Craft Desirable Item using materials collected or bought

There are drawbacks to all 4 systems.

1. Accessibility of content; the rarity of the item depends on the relative inaccessibility of content. For some people rarity = desirability and an item can stop being desirable if everyone has it. If the content is inaccessible, then those who want it but cannot or will not access the content are unhappy.
2. Set the required token count too high and people complain. Set it too low and people get the item quickly and then complain they want something else to play for.
3. Massive drop tables. If a large variety of items can be gained from “everywhere,” the chances of getting the one item a player might want are reduced.
4. Can have any of the above drawbacks depending on the nature of the various items one needs to collect. GW2’s implementation requires RNG drops (precursors, T6 Blood, Scales, etc. if farmed) which , while not available everywhere, are available in enough areas that the drop tables for them result in very small chances to get some items. It also has the added drawback of the sheer number of materials needed to craft Ascended or Legendary items. I know a couple of people who are in the process of collecting to make a legendary weapon. Both are using a spreadsheet to track what they need to get. One even made a second sheet to track what had been acquired, because of how depressing the first list was.

But it’s neither “grind mob kills to level” nor “grind dungeons/raids for BiS gear over and over” so I guess it’s all good… :/

Well GW2 has them all but mainly has 3 then 2 (or if you would count gold as tokens 2 would be first) and then 1.

Number 4 is separate as it simply uses the other 3. And the mats you usually need simply drop in to low quantity’s to really being farmed by yourself. If I compare that to other MMO’s I never really had a problem with collecting mats. I checked what mob drops the maps, I went there and farmed them for a few min, an hour max and I got what I needed. The real time went into getting the recipe’s I needed to make what I wanted. Again like all cosmetics they usually where rewarded for a dungeon, or dropped from a mob or where rewarded from a quest-line. That is how you earned them and that’s what kept you busy. It’s also way more interesting sending you all over the world with a much more clear goal, that one recipe. In stead of.. I need 250 charged lodestones then I can not really get anywhere so lets start gold-grinding to buy them.

What is the problem you have with your number 3 is drops are to low.

The token system imho should be something you would in most cases something you earn along the way. The goals you want people to go for would be items directly rewarded from completing something or that are RNG based but also in a doable way. And of course a few exceptions to this to create some really rare items is oke.

Test.8734:

Here we have a full transcript of yesterday’s presentation (thanks to the guy who wrote all that down).

Interestingly, twice Colin mentions “our no-grind philosophy for Guild Wars 2”.

It appears ArenaNet really believes their own Manifesto, when the same Colin said, “We don’t want players to grind”.

We just need to let them know that, between Ascended items and slow dungeon rewards and Legendaries and the new level-based unlocks and the new trait system unlock and etc etc, well… Their “no-grind philosophy” has been extremely grindy.

Agreed

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Loiterer.4235:

Killthehealersffs.8940:

/Log in
/push ’’O’’
/go ’’Others’’ and the ’’Minis’’
/count 182

/go in ‘’Gem Store ’’ section
/count 10

Bored to look in the Wiki about limited pets from the Achivement-2week stories or the Limited edition Gem store sale .

“Too bored to look. Will just throw out random data.”

That is a great way to win a debate.

Hey !
I tried !
(But still in the Ah version there are 182 … did i calculate wrong ?)
Atleast i dont have to pay 15 euro per months (to access the servers) + the real money in the Store :P
But rather farm some dungeons if i need to , and not drop a single penny to the company (uneployed) :P

That is the ‘grind gold’ part we where talking about. You see the title of the thread.. It’s about the grind. You can get all the ones from the cash-shop with gold, being it by buying gems from gold or from the TP (So from people who did buy the boxes from the cash-shop but did not get the minis they wanted). But is results in the grind.