Guild Wars 2

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.
I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:
Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.
I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Guys honest question: why are we still replying to Vayne?

This is a good question. Considering neither of you or Vayne have decided to stake out a common ground to talk about, there’s not really a discussion here. Just a war over semantics.

(Which is incredibly amusing to watch. I made caramel popcorn just to eat while I watch.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Guys honest question: why are we still replying to Vayne?

This is a good question. Considering neither of you or Vayne have decided to stake out a common ground to talk about, there’s not really a discussion here. Just a war over semantics.

(Which is incredibly amusing to watch. I made caramel popcorn just to eat while I watch.)

Sorry Tobias, I’m not arguing semantics at all. I said Anet said something which I know for a fact they said. That’s not a semantic argument. I simply won’t trawl through dozens of four year old videos to find the proof.

But that’s not a semantic argument. Anet did use the Shadow Behemoth as a specific example of what they meant when they were talking about not grinding to get to the fun stuff. They said you get the fun stuff throughout the game. It’s not like other games where you have to grind to level before you get to the fun stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only guy who remembers, but how is that a semantic argument. Test is claiming it never happened. He’s wrong.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

You continue to assert that the manifesto didn’t reference gear grind. Colin specified in this very post that in fact gear was exactly what the manifesto meant. You’re stuck in a loop while the actual clarification you say is somewhere in cyber space that backs your claims is in fact on page 4 of this post and refutes your claims. Colin stated that the manifesto against grind did in fact mean gear grind. You’re not arguing semantics you’re arguing against confirmed fact.

Vayne.8563:

Sorry Tobias, I’m not arguing semantics at all. I said Anet said something which I know for a fact they said. That’s not a semantic argument. I simply won’t trawl through dozens of four year old videos to find the proof.

But that’s not a semantic argument. Anet did use the Shadow Behemoth as a specific example of what they meant when they were talking about not grinding to get to the fun stuff. They said you get the fun stuff throughout the game. It’s not like other games where you have to grind to level before you get to the fun stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only guy who remembers, but how is that a semantic argument. Test is claiming it never happened. He’s wrong.

Oh, Vayne, my friend . . . there’s not the semantics being argued. And you’re losing yourself in the inconsequential bits of the argument by being just constantly distracted by remembering the Manifesto and other interviews and all that. They’re not important at all.

No, the heart of the matter is the semantics around the topic of “grind”. See, that’s where all the argument is springing from. Some people feel there is grind which is unavoidable, and some others . . . like myself . . . feel the grind exists but is unimportant to the game – a postscript, something to do while waiting for something else to do.

(Why else does Fractals exist other than sheer busywork?)

Whatever the Manifesto said is irrelevant. Even Colin, straight up, admitted there was a problem with how to acquire Ascended Gear. But also that he felt it didn’t betray the design ideals they developed under. I sort of agree. It’s grindy as Grenth’s molars. It’s also entirely unnecessary to see every aspect of the game.

But what I think doesn’t really matter either. It’s a distracting set of thoughts which basically draws away from the heart of the issue.

People feel there is grind. Others disagree on whether it matters, and thus it descends into semantics with tons of side-shows.

Honestly? I just want people to stop trying to make me ashamed for liking the game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry Tobias, I’m not arguing semantics at all. I said Anet said something which I know for a fact they said. That’s not a semantic argument. I simply won’t trawl through dozens of four year old videos to find the proof.

But that’s not a semantic argument. Anet did use the Shadow Behemoth as a specific example of what they meant when they were talking about not grinding to get to the fun stuff. They said you get the fun stuff throughout the game. It’s not like other games where you have to grind to level before you get to the fun stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only guy who remembers, but how is that a semantic argument. Test is claiming it never happened. He’s wrong.

Oh, Vayne, my friend . . . there’s not the semantics being argued. And you’re losing yourself in the inconsequential bits of the argument by being just constantly distracted by remembering the Manifesto and other interviews and all that. They’re not important at all.

No, the heart of the matter is the semantics around the topic of “grind”. See, that’s where all the argument is springing from. Some people feel there is grind which is unavoidable, and some others . . . like myself . . . feel the grind exists but is unimportant to the game – a postscript, something to do while waiting for something else to do.

(Why else does Fractals exist other than sheer busywork?)

Whatever the Manifesto said is irrelevant. Even Colin, straight up, admitted there was a problem with how to acquire Ascended Gear. But also that he felt it didn’t betray the design ideals they developed under. I sort of agree. It’s grindy as Grenth’s molars. It’s also entirely unnecessary to see every aspect of the game.

But what I think doesn’t really matter either. It’s a distracting set of thoughts which basically draws away from the heart of the issue.

People feel there is grind. Others disagree on whether it matters, and thus it descends into semantics with tons of side-shows.

Honestly? I just want people to stop trying to make me ashamed for liking the game.

See when I see fans say someone is lying, and there are other explanations available, I want to make sure those other explanations are in plain site. Sure, the grind conversation is not furthered by this, nor is it furthered by calling people liars. I’m not even sure why that’s allowed, because it’s maligning something.

If what I say is true (and it is) then the definition of grind gets further enhancement from what was said back then. I mean you can hardly discuss grind without discussing what grind is and means.

Anet was pretty kitten ed clear back then, and just because some people don’t remember it, doesn’t mean it wasn’t said.

So yeah, maybe it is a distraction from the main argument, but knowing that that was at least part of what Anet meant, because they said so BACK THEN, does change the complexion of the argument.

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry Tobias, I’m not arguing semantics at all. I said Anet said something which I know for a fact they said. That’s not a semantic argument. I simply won’t trawl through dozens of four year old videos to find the proof.

But that’s not a semantic argument. Anet did use the Shadow Behemoth as a specific example of what they meant when they were talking about not grinding to get to the fun stuff. They said you get the fun stuff throughout the game. It’s not like other games where you have to grind to level before you get to the fun stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only guy who remembers, but how is that a semantic argument. Test is claiming it never happened. He’s wrong.

Oh, Vayne, my friend . . . there’s not the semantics being argued. And you’re losing yourself in the inconsequential bits of the argument by being just constantly distracted by remembering the Manifesto and other interviews and all that. They’re not important at all.

No, the heart of the matter is the semantics around the topic of “grind”. See, that’s where all the argument is springing from. Some people feel there is grind which is unavoidable, and some others . . . like myself . . . feel the grind exists but is unimportant to the game – a postscript, something to do while waiting for something else to do.

(Why else does Fractals exist other than sheer busywork?)

Whatever the Manifesto said is irrelevant. Even Colin, straight up, admitted there was a problem with how to acquire Ascended Gear. But also that he felt it didn’t betray the design ideals they developed under. I sort of agree. It’s grindy as Grenth’s molars. It’s also entirely unnecessary to see every aspect of the game.

But what I think doesn’t really matter either. It’s a distracting set of thoughts which basically draws away from the heart of the issue.

People feel there is grind. Others disagree on whether it matters, and thus it descends into semantics with tons of side-shows.

Honestly? I just want people to stop trying to make me ashamed for liking the game.

See when I see fans say someone is lying, and there are other explanations available, I want to make sure those other explanations are in plain site. Sure, the grind conversation is not furthered by this, nor is it furthered by calling people liars. I’m not even sure why that’s allowed, because it’s maligning something.

If what I say is true (and it is) then the definition of grind gets further enhancement from what was said back then. I mean you can hardly discuss grind without discussing what grind is and means.

Anet was pretty kitten ed clear back then, and just because some people don’t remember it, doesn’t mean it wasn’t said.

So yeah, maybe it is a distraction from the main argument, but knowing that that was at least part of what Anet meant, because they said so BACK THEN, does change the complexion of the argument.

You have the time to continually post saying you’re right but refuse to spend any of your time to Google and link this empirical data that proves your veracity and cements your forum supremacy? I’ve followed GW2 as long as you have if not longer and I recall the no grind interviews and my take away was always that GW2 was a game where everyone was equal at cap, no gear grind, it was about skill. I’ll put my memory against anyones.

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry Tobias, I’m not arguing semantics at all. I said Anet said something which I know for a fact they said. That’s not a semantic argument. I simply won’t trawl through dozens of four year old videos to find the proof.

But that’s not a semantic argument. Anet did use the Shadow Behemoth as a specific example of what they meant when they were talking about not grinding to get to the fun stuff. They said you get the fun stuff throughout the game. It’s not like other games where you have to grind to level before you get to the fun stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only guy who remembers, but how is that a semantic argument. Test is claiming it never happened. He’s wrong.

Oh, Vayne, my friend . . . there’s not the semantics being argued. And you’re losing yourself in the inconsequential bits of the argument by being just constantly distracted by remembering the Manifesto and other interviews and all that. They’re not important at all.

No, the heart of the matter is the semantics around the topic of “grind”. See, that’s where all the argument is springing from. Some people feel there is grind which is unavoidable, and some others . . . like myself . . . feel the grind exists but is unimportant to the game – a postscript, something to do while waiting for something else to do.

(Why else does Fractals exist other than sheer busywork?)

Whatever the Manifesto said is irrelevant. Even Colin, straight up, admitted there was a problem with how to acquire Ascended Gear. But also that he felt it didn’t betray the design ideals they developed under. I sort of agree. It’s grindy as Grenth’s molars. It’s also entirely unnecessary to see every aspect of the game.

But what I think doesn’t really matter either. It’s a distracting set of thoughts which basically draws away from the heart of the issue.

People feel there is grind. Others disagree on whether it matters, and thus it descends into semantics with tons of side-shows.

Honestly? I just want people to stop trying to make me ashamed for liking the game.

See when I see fans say someone is lying, and there are other explanations available, I want to make sure those other explanations are in plain site. Sure, the grind conversation is not furthered by this, nor is it furthered by calling people liars. I’m not even sure why that’s allowed, because it’s maligning something.

If what I say is true (and it is) then the definition of grind gets further enhancement from what was said back then. I mean you can hardly discuss grind without discussing what grind is and means.

Anet was pretty kitten ed clear back then, and just because some people don’t remember it, doesn’t mean it wasn’t said.

So yeah, maybe it is a distraction from the main argument, but knowing that that was at least part of what Anet meant, because they said so BACK THEN, does change the complexion of the argument.

you need to realize that advertising and marketing arent really expected to be truthful.

Anet is not going to be truthful in marketing and public face, when it doesnt suit their needs. Its peoples jobs to go out there and say what the company line is, even if it isnt accurate.
truth is when they were promoting the manifesto, they knew that it might not be how things were going to end up. They had already started to considering how and when to shift their options.

The manifesto is not the first inconsistency, it wont be the last.

So yeah, they were dishonest. Just accept it and move on. Is it shocking that company isnt truthful?

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry Tobias, I’m not arguing semantics at all. I said Anet said something which I know for a fact they said. That’s not a semantic argument. I simply won’t trawl through dozens of four year old videos to find the proof.

But that’s not a semantic argument. Anet did use the Shadow Behemoth as a specific example of what they meant when they were talking about not grinding to get to the fun stuff. They said you get the fun stuff throughout the game. It’s not like other games where you have to grind to level before you get to the fun stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only guy who remembers, but how is that a semantic argument. Test is claiming it never happened. He’s wrong.

Oh, Vayne, my friend . . . there’s not the semantics being argued. And you’re losing yourself in the inconsequential bits of the argument by being just constantly distracted by remembering the Manifesto and other interviews and all that. They’re not important at all.

No, the heart of the matter is the semantics around the topic of “grind”. See, that’s where all the argument is springing from. Some people feel there is grind which is unavoidable, and some others . . . like myself . . . feel the grind exists but is unimportant to the game – a postscript, something to do while waiting for something else to do.

(Why else does Fractals exist other than sheer busywork?)

Whatever the Manifesto said is irrelevant. Even Colin, straight up, admitted there was a problem with how to acquire Ascended Gear. But also that he felt it didn’t betray the design ideals they developed under. I sort of agree. It’s grindy as Grenth’s molars. It’s also entirely unnecessary to see every aspect of the game.

But what I think doesn’t really matter either. It’s a distracting set of thoughts which basically draws away from the heart of the issue.

People feel there is grind. Others disagree on whether it matters, and thus it descends into semantics with tons of side-shows.

Honestly? I just want people to stop trying to make me ashamed for liking the game.

See when I see fans say someone is lying, and there are other explanations available, I want to make sure those other explanations are in plain site. Sure, the grind conversation is not furthered by this, nor is it furthered by calling people liars. I’m not even sure why that’s allowed, because it’s maligning something.

If what I say is true (and it is) then the definition of grind gets further enhancement from what was said back then. I mean you can hardly discuss grind without discussing what grind is and means.

Anet was pretty kitten ed clear back then, and just because some people don’t remember it, doesn’t mean it wasn’t said.

So yeah, maybe it is a distraction from the main argument, but knowing that that was at least part of what Anet meant, because they said so BACK THEN, does change the complexion of the argument.

you need to realize that advertising and marketing arent really expected to be truthful.

Anet is not going to be truthful in marketing and public face, when it doesnt suit their needs. Its peoples jobs to go out there and say what the company line is, even if it isnt accurate.
truth is when they were promoting the manifesto, they knew that it might not be how things were going to end up. They had already started to considering how and when to shift their options.

The manifesto is not the first inconsistency, it wont be the last.

So yeah, they were dishonest. Just accept it and move on. Is it shocking that company isnt truthful?

Not shocking at all. The only thing that I find disturbing is that fans defend it. With The xpac on the horizon their past actions are relevant.

phys.7689:

Coffee.7058:

phys.7689:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

eotm train, and silverwastes is the big ones nowadays, i hear orr still has people doing events for cash too

“eotm "?

Edge of the mists, its the wvw lite map, but the way it is actually played, is to go around taking all the castles with a skirmish breaking out every 30 min or so. Lots of champs, vets and events.

Oh yeah, sorry had a brain fart. I hit that up every now and again.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry Tobias, I’m not arguing semantics at all. I said Anet said something which I know for a fact they said. That’s not a semantic argument. I simply won’t trawl through dozens of four year old videos to find the proof.

But that’s not a semantic argument. Anet did use the Shadow Behemoth as a specific example of what they meant when they were talking about not grinding to get to the fun stuff. They said you get the fun stuff throughout the game. It’s not like other games where you have to grind to level before you get to the fun stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only guy who remembers, but how is that a semantic argument. Test is claiming it never happened. He’s wrong.

Oh, Vayne, my friend . . . there’s not the semantics being argued. And you’re losing yourself in the inconsequential bits of the argument by being just constantly distracted by remembering the Manifesto and other interviews and all that. They’re not important at all.

No, the heart of the matter is the semantics around the topic of “grind”. See, that’s where all the argument is springing from. Some people feel there is grind which is unavoidable, and some others . . . like myself . . . feel the grind exists but is unimportant to the game – a postscript, something to do while waiting for something else to do.

(Why else does Fractals exist other than sheer busywork?)

Whatever the Manifesto said is irrelevant. Even Colin, straight up, admitted there was a problem with how to acquire Ascended Gear. But also that he felt it didn’t betray the design ideals they developed under. I sort of agree. It’s grindy as Grenth’s molars. It’s also entirely unnecessary to see every aspect of the game.

But what I think doesn’t really matter either. It’s a distracting set of thoughts which basically draws away from the heart of the issue.

People feel there is grind. Others disagree on whether it matters, and thus it descends into semantics with tons of side-shows.

Honestly? I just want people to stop trying to make me ashamed for liking the game.

See when I see fans say someone is lying, and there are other explanations available, I want to make sure those other explanations are in plain site. Sure, the grind conversation is not furthered by this, nor is it furthered by calling people liars. I’m not even sure why that’s allowed, because it’s maligning something.

If what I say is true (and it is) then the definition of grind gets further enhancement from what was said back then. I mean you can hardly discuss grind without discussing what grind is and means.

Anet was pretty kitten ed clear back then, and just because some people don’t remember it, doesn’t mean it wasn’t said.

So yeah, maybe it is a distraction from the main argument, but knowing that that was at least part of what Anet meant, because they said so BACK THEN, does change the complexion of the argument.

You have the time to continually post saying you’re right but refuse to spend any of your time to Google and link this empirical data that proves your veracity and cements your forum supremacy? I’ve followed GW2 as long as you have if not longer and I recall the no grind interviews and my take away was always that GW2 was a game where everyone was equal at cap, no gear grind, it was about skill. I’ll put my memory against anyones.

I don’t care if you remember it. I remember it. Other people in my guild remember it. And whether you believe me or not, it’s not my responsibility to back up what I say. You don’t have to believe it.

If I remember seeing a ride at Disneyworld and I express my recollection, that’s it. That’s how I recall it. I don’t go through old tapes because your belief doesn’t make something true or not true.

If it was text and not videos, I’d go through it, because search functions make that easy, but contrary to popular belief, I don’t have blocks of time to sit down and watch videos to find it.

But my recollection of the event isn’t wrong. I don’t care if you remember it or not…it absolutely happens.

Maybe after I’ve finished moving, and then my trip which will take me away for six weeks, I MIGHT have time to look for those videos, but not now. All I do now is answer some posts while taking a break from packing up my house.

You can call me a liar if you want, but you’d be wrong.

Well you can’t both be right.

I remember them saying that you.would be.equal at.cap with no grind.

Colin confirmed that they changed their minds. I still am upset over it, but it isn’t my.call… But it does give me pause on.the expansion.

petespri.6548:

Well you can’t both be right.

I remember them saying that you.would be.equal at.cap with no grind.

Colin confirmed that they changed their minds. I still am upset over it, but it isn’t my.call… But it does give me pause on.the expansion.

The game has definitely changed direction. There’s no question about that. Because games do evolve and some things people think will work won’t work. Rift had to change direction, Wildstar had to change direction and probably did too late…if games don’t evolve they die.

Inevitably they lose people in that process…but that’s what happens to MMOs. Anet lost a lot of people when they came out with ascended gear, but they also gained some, and kept some.

Was it a bad gamble? Maybe. I don’t know how we’ll ever know for sure.

Vayne.8563:

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.

Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]

Vayne.8563:

Nope, I’m saying I’m an editor by profession and I know how to read English and I can look at things with years of preconceptions because I was trained to. If you look at the words of the manifesto, they bear out what I’m saying and they don’t bear out what you’re saying.

Well..

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I still maintain my interpretation of the manifesto is right. I’d love Colin to come on here and answer my question about who wrote it.

Are you married?

I can see the scene, a few years after the marriage:

Vayne: “You know dear, I don’t think we’re married”

Partner: “What?!”

Vayne: “Our marriage was years ago, you can’t expect me to remember what I said that day”.

Partner: “We recorded it! You can watch right here!”

Vayne: “Still, I was just saying an intention, not necessarily what I was going to do.”

Partner: “You swore it!”

Vayne: “Maybe. But when I said ‘I do’, did I write that myself? Or did I read what someone else had written? You cannot hold me accountable for something I said that someone else had written. So, we’re not married. Bye.”

Nice hyperbole.

This is not a hyperbole.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.

Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]

Surely you realize it’s also likely they grind doing that because there’s literally (not practically, literally) nothing else to be doing once you’ve had a turn at everything else. Or, to be blunt, anything they care to be doing.

Sort of like how people would “grind” things in GW1 because it was potentially lucrative. Or fun, but since having fun is forbidden . . .

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.

Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]

Your whole argument makes no sense. Why do people “grind” those trains if they feel like that is a grind (i’m assuming grind is a negative thing)? Are you saying that everybody who runs dungeons or joins a train finds the activity really boring and is just generally upset at the grind all the time?

For that matter, people who spend hours in WvW could be accused of grinding too, yet they would probably say they had fun fighting for their realm.
Or pvpers who play two dozen matches in a row, are they grinding too? They are doing the same thing over and over again.

Maybe if you play a game just to get some shiny, you shouldn’t be playing games at all or just buy gems, convert to gold and buy stuff.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.

Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]

Surely you realize it’s also likely they grind doing that because there’s literally (not practically, literally) nothing else to be doing once you’ve had a turn at everything else. Or, to be blunt, anything they care to be doing.

Sort of like how people would “grind” things in GW1 because it was potentially lucrative. Or fun, but since having fun is forbidden . . .

Sure, so people grind because there is nothing else to do. But then my request would still be the same. Let me hunt down items directly instead of having only the grind option for them. Then there would be stuff to do, hunting down items.

serenke.4806:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.

Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]

Your whole argument makes no sense. Why do people “grind” those trains if they feel like that is a grind (i’m assuming grind is a negative thing)? Are you saying that everybody who runs dungeons or joins a train finds the activity really boring and is just generally upset at the grind all the time?

For that matter, people who spend hours in WvW could be accused of grinding too, yet they would probably say they had fun fighting for their realm.
Or pvpers who play two dozen matches in a row, are they grinding too? They are doing the same thing over and over again.

Maybe if you play a game just to get some shiny, you shouldn’t be playing games at all or just buy gems, convert to gold and buy stuff.

“Why do people “grind” those trains if they feel like that is a grind” That’s what a grind is, right. People repeating content not for the content but to earn something they want. So in GW2 it’s mainly grinding for gold to buy the items they want. Sure some might like the trains themselves and for them it’s not grinding but probably most simple ‘can put up with them’ but do it not for the train but for the gold.

Then again, everybody knows this so not sure why you ask and why I explain this.

“Are you saying that everybody who runs dungeons or joins a train finds the activity really boring” No not everybody, a large portion however just ‘puts up with it’ to get the stuff they want / need. Not because of the fun of the train.

You are trying to suggest that all these grind are just there because people like that activity and not because people are mainly doing them to earn gold and if you really believe that you are fooling yourself. Again, some people are many aren’t.

The problem is also not those who like it, the problem is that if you want to items, most of them are simply only obtainable by gold and so grinding for them. I don’t mind people grinding, I mind that there is no other option for obtaining most things.

“Maybe if you play a game just to get some shiny, you shouldn’t be playing games at all or just buy gems, convert to gold and buy stuff.”

Why? This game is all about cosmetics and I have always had loads of fun hunting down those items. Being is hunter pets, special weapon-skins, mini’s, mounts. I always had a lot of fun hunting those down in MMO’s. And in fact it’s something a lot of people do and have fun doing. So why shouldn’t I? Buying them, that is what makes no sense as that is not playing a game.

But of course, that fun part of hunting down items is what is so boring in GW2 because the only way to get 90% of them is grinding gold for them.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.

Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]

You can be as sarcastic as you like. People have always grinded in games including Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 was filled with things to grind for..but you didn’t have to. That’s the trade off.

There is ZERO percent chance that a game company can make content fast enough for people to keep playing it without something to work towards. You have to have long term goals. You want to call that grinding, you’re perfectly entitled to.

But you can work on the same goals slowly without grinding too. That then becomes a choice.

But if I were in a game where the only gear better than mine was in a specific dungeon, to get that gear I’d have to run that dungeon repeatedly, which to me IS grind. There is no other option but to run that dungeon.

Someone who likes to hang out in Queensdale can level to 80 in Queensdale. Do you know how few MMOs that’s true of?

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.

Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]

Surely you realize it’s also likely they grind doing that because there’s literally (not practically, literally) nothing else to be doing once you’ve had a turn at everything else. Or, to be blunt, anything they care to be doing.

Sort of like how people would “grind” things in GW1 because it was potentially lucrative. Or fun, but since having fun is forbidden . . .

Sure, so people grind because there is nothing else to do. But then my request would still be the same. Let me hunt down items directly instead of having only the grind option for them. Then there would be stuff to do, hunting down items.

But you can hunt down items right now. You don’t have to buy collections off the TP, you can do the events and kill the bosses that drop those items, which is exactly what you’re asking for.

thehipone.6812:

Except GWAMM was nothing more than an optional title. Heck, you could get at least 25/30 just by playing through once in normal mode and once in hard mode and a bit of vanquishing/skill capture.

It was a reward given for repeating content ad nauseum because there was nothing else to do. 25/30 is not GWAMM and your ignoring the fact this was one of the most grindy rewards ever created in the genre. Getting to 75% quickly holds little relevance when the remaining 25% takes way more time and grind to attain.

The term “optional” is often thrown around as defense of grind based reward. It’s null and void given the mechanics of the game…think about it…

Vayne.8563:

~

“You can be as sarcastic as you like. People have always grinded in games including Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 was filled with things to grind for..but you didn’t have to. That’s the trade off.”

You did not have to.. the most bad excuse ever if it comes to grind. But sure your right. If I want the flying carpet in WoW I can do a craft for it, if I want a mini in that game most of them I can earn with quest or as a drop from a dungeon or get with a craft.

In GW2 if I want to hunt down such things I have 2 options buy them (what is not playing) or grind gold. So in order to get them I have to grind!

Then you say.. but you do not need the items. Sure, in WoW in order to do the highest level raids you need to grind for gear (or at least so they told me, I did never try that). But of course that would then also not be valid because you do not have to do the highest level raids.

So if I would be to follow this logic grind is always optional, it’s only not optional IF you want something. In GW2 it’s not optional IF you want to collect cosmetics, in WoW it’s not optional IF you want to do highest level raids and because it’s an IF it does not could. So the term grind is a fantasy word, it does not exist (in games). At least by following this “you don’t have to, so it does not count” logic.

Now back to reality, I never said people should not be allowed to grind or games may not allow for grind. The problem here is that it’s the only option IF you want something (like cosmetics) while the game-play of hunting then down in the world has been replaced by the grind. Now you might not consider it grind because it’s optional but that does not change the fact that for other people it does matter. And maybe enough to matter for the game as a whole.

“There is ZERO percent chance that a game company can make content fast enough for people to keep playing it without something to work towards.”

While false (I still play Wolfenstein:ET and in fact prefer the original maps.. A game out of development for what.. 10 years?) but irrelevant because it’s great what you say.. I want to work towards things.. I want to work towards those cosmetics by hunting them down, not by grinding some currency for them. So the goals Anet creates would still be the same, the way to achieve the goal however would be another mechanic then grind (or buy).

“You have to have long term goals. You want to call that grinding, you’re perfectly entitled to.” No I don’t consider any long term goal grinding, I consider grinding for gold to get almost any item (long term or short term) grinding.

“But you can work on the same goals slowly without grinding too. That then becomes a choice.” Not true, they will add new items faster than you would ever earn the stuff by normal playing (depending on your playstyle) plus that because other people grind, prices will go up meaning those who don’t will always be behind (you want item x, cost 5 gold, you get 5 gold by now it cost 6 gold, you got 6 gold it cost 6,1 and then the next step you manage to get it, meanwhile 5 new items you like were added.).

“But if I were in a game where the only gear better than mine was in a specific dungeon, to get that gear I’d have to run that dungeon repeatedly, which to me IS grind. There is no other option but to run that dungeon.” But that is only IF you want that better gear, so it’s optional, That then becomes a choice. So no grind if I follow what you did say before.

“Someone who likes to hang out in Queensdale can level to 80 in Queensdale. Do you know how few MMOs that’s true of?” Not sure how that is relevant.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.

Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]

Surely you realize it’s also likely they grind doing that because there’s literally (not practically, literally) nothing else to be doing once you’ve had a turn at everything else. Or, to be blunt, anything they care to be doing.

Sort of like how people would “grind” things in GW1 because it was potentially lucrative. Or fun, but since having fun is forbidden . . .

Sure, so people grind because there is nothing else to do. But then my request would still be the same. Let me hunt down items directly instead of having only the grind option for them. Then there would be stuff to do, hunting down items.

But you can hunt down items right now. You don’t have to buy collections off the TP, you can do the events and kill the bosses that drop those items, which is exactly what you’re asking for.

Only true in a few cases. Not true for any of the items that are directly, or indirectly on the cash-shop. What is where most cosmetics are being added these days. And then there are items that do drop in the world but you can’t also directly hunt down because it has an extreme low drop-rate but drops from many different mobs. (so it will end up on the TP but directly hunting it down is not a realistic option). Not to mention that you are referring to farming what is still the least interesting way.. but would be oke in a mix of ways to hunt down items. And then there are only a few that are indeed added in a correct way to directly hunt them down, you know like Liadri.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

~

“You can be as sarcastic as you like. People have always grinded in games including Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 was filled with things to grind for..but you didn’t have to. That’s the trade off.”

You did not have to.. the most bad excuse ever if it comes to grind. But sure your right. If I want the flying carpet in WoW I can do a craft for it, if I want a mini in that game most of them I can earn with quest or as a drop from a dungeon or get with a craft.

In GW2 if I want to hunt down such things I have 2 options buy them (what is not playing) or grind gold. So in order to get them I have to grind!

Then you say.. but you do not need the items. Sure, in WoW in order to do the highest level raids you need to grind for gear (or at least so they told me, I did never try that). But of course that would then also not be valid because you do not have to do the highest level raids.

So if I would be to follow this logic grind is always optional, it’s only not optional IF you want something. In GW2 it’s not optional IF you want to collect cosmetics, in WoW it’s not optional IF you want to do highest level raids and because it’s an IF it does not could. So the term grind is a fantasy word, it does not exist (in games). At least by following this “you don’t have to, so it does not count” logic.

Now back to reality, I never said people should not be allowed to grind or games may not allow for grind. The problem here is that it’s the only option IF you want something (like cosmetics) while the game-play of hunting then down in the world has been replaced by the grind. Now you might not consider it grind because it’s optional but that does not change the fact that for other people it does matter. And maybe enough to matter for the game as a whole.

“There is ZERO percent chance that a game company can make content fast enough for people to keep playing it without something to work towards.”

While false (I still play Wolfenstein:ET and in fact prefer the original maps.. A game out of development for what.. 10 years?) but irrelevant because it’s great what you say.. I want to work towards things.. I want to work towards those cosmetics by hunting them down, not by grinding some currency for them. So the goals Anet creates would still be the same, the way to achieve the goal however would be another mechanic then grind (or buy).

“You have to have long term goals. You want to call that grinding, you’re perfectly entitled to.” No I don’t consider any long term goal grinding, I consider grinding for gold to get almost any item (long term or short term) grinding.

“But you can work on the same goals slowly without grinding too. That then becomes a choice.” Not true, they will add new items faster than you would ever earn the stuff by normal playing (depending on your playstyle) plus that because other people grind, prices will go up meaning those who don’t will always be behind (you want item x, cost 5 gold, you get 5 gold by now it cost 6 gold, you got 6 gold it cost 6,1 and then the next step you manage to get it, meanwhile 5 new items you like were added.).

“But if I were in a game where the only gear better than mine was in a specific dungeon, to get that gear I’d have to run that dungeon repeatedly, which to me IS grind. There is no other option but to run that dungeon.” But that is only IF you want that better gear, so it’s optional, That then becomes a choice. So no grind if I follow what you did say before.

“Someone who likes to hang out in Queensdale can level to 80 in Queensdale. Do you know how few MMOs that’s true of?” Not sure how that is relevant.

I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.

And like the stuff in the Guild Wars 2 cash shop, they’re cosmetic.

For the rest of the stuff, you can farm for stuff, or you can buy it, or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out. If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.

Glad I don’t play that way.

Devata.6589:

In GW2 if I want to hunt down such things I have 2 options buy them (what is not playing) or grind gold. So in order to get them I have to grind!

You can also focus your in game activities on the ones where you can get an ascended chest : Fractals, Teq, TT and some guild missions I think.

Vayne.8563:

I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.

And like the stuff in the Guild Wars 2 cash shop, they’re cosmetic.

For the rest of the stuff, you can farm for stuff, or you can buy it, or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out. If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.

Glad I don’t play that way.

“I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.”

I did play it and yes there are a few of those items (so little that in a list of about 300 mounts I wanted to hunt down, only 10 where not possible because they were in the cash-shop or on a card game or something like that). Still the majority I can hunt down in the world, while the majority in GW2 I can only grind for. Really I rather have a few items I can’t get at all (without buying) and by far most that I can hunt down in the world. Then to be able to get them almost all but by far most only by grinding (or by buying) and a small number I can directly hunt down in the world.

This is because I want to have fun in the game, and I don’t consider grinding boring, not fun.

“or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out.” Oow I am not talking about all. Just once in a few a new thing gets added that you might like. It would still be out of reach with ‘casual’ playing.

“If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.” Well for me an MMORPG is for a large part about that yes, not only but a large part. I like the hunt. Not a problem in most MMO’s, in fact it’s a lot of fun, but in GW2 that’s just a boring grind. Nice for you, you don’t play that way but many do.. Why do you think Anet does focus so much on cosmetics? Because it knows people like that. But then they also decide to monetize that hoping people with spend cash on it instead of playing for it resulting in people grinding for it but the hunt for it is dead.

Aidenwolf.5964:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

You continue to assert that the manifesto didn’t reference gear grind. Colin specified in this very post that in fact gear was exactly what the manifesto meant. You’re stuck in a loop while the actual clarification you say is somewhere in cyber space that backs your claims is in fact on page 4 of this post and refutes your claims. Colin stated that the manifesto against grind did in fact mean gear grind. You’re not arguing semantics you’re arguing against confirmed fact.

I think you quoted the wrong person here friend. :P I’m not Vayne.

So, anyone care to discuss the post I made that Aiden mistakenly quoted?

(Seems people care more about arguing over a death horse with Vayne then moving the discussion forward…)

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.

And like the stuff in the Guild Wars 2 cash shop, they’re cosmetic.

For the rest of the stuff, you can farm for stuff, or you can buy it, or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out. If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.

Glad I don’t play that way.

“I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.”

I did play it and yes there are a few of those items (so little that in a list of about 300 mounts I wanted to hunt down, only 10 where not possible because they were in the cash-shop or on a card game or something like that). Still the majority I can hunt down in the world, while the majority in GW2 I can only grind for. Really I rather have a few items I can’t get at all (without buying) and by far most that I can hunt down in the world. Then to be able to get them almost all but by far most only by grinding (or by buying) and a small number I can directly hunt down in the world.

This is because I want to have fun in the game, and I don’t consider grinding boring, not fun.

“or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out.” Oow I am not talking about all. Just once in a few a new thing gets added that you might like. It would still be out of reach with ‘casual’ playing.

“If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.” Well for me an MMORPG is for a large part about that yes, not only but a large part. I like the hunt. Not a problem in most MMO’s, in fact it’s a lot of fun, but in GW2 that’s just a boring grind. Nice for you, you don’t play that way but many do.. Why do you think Anet does focus so much on cosmetics? Because it knows people like that. But then they also decide to monetize that hoping people with spend cash on it instead of playing for it resulting in people grinding for it but the hunt for it is dead.

Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.

Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.

Anyway I think your entire outlook on this whole not just grind situation but game situation is completely unrealistic. I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Aidenwolf.5964:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

You continue to assert that the manifesto didn’t reference gear grind. Colin specified in this very post that in fact gear was exactly what the manifesto meant. You’re stuck in a loop while the actual clarification you say is somewhere in cyber space that backs your claims is in fact on page 4 of this post and refutes your claims. Colin stated that the manifesto against grind did in fact mean gear grind. You’re not arguing semantics you’re arguing against confirmed fact.

I think you quoted the wrong person here friend. :P I’m not Vayne.

It’s okay, I’m ignoring the lot of you now anyway. Since you have pretty much called my a liar, saying that what I said couldn’t be said and since I don’t have time these days to look through hours and hours of four year old videos, it’s easier just to move on.

Hope someone does take the time to do that and proves what I’m saying, but it really doesn’t matter.

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Aidenwolf.5964:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

You continue to assert that the manifesto didn’t reference gear grind. Colin specified in this very post that in fact gear was exactly what the manifesto meant. You’re stuck in a loop while the actual clarification you say is somewhere in cyber space that backs your claims is in fact on page 4 of this post and refutes your claims. Colin stated that the manifesto against grind did in fact mean gear grind. You’re not arguing semantics you’re arguing against confirmed fact.

I think you quoted the wrong person here friend. :P I’m not Vayne.

It’s okay, I’m ignoring the lot of you now anyway. Since you have pretty much called my a liar, saying that what I said couldn’t be said and since I don’t have time these days to look through hours and hours of four year old videos, it’s easier just to move on.

Hope someone does take the time to do that and proves what I’m saying, but it really doesn’t matter.

I’m not calling you a liar, unless you’d argue that the manifesto specifically states that gear grind is not a part of the no-grind philosophy (because that would be a lie). I’m just saying that the post you make are completely irrelevant and you keep this discussion going in circles instead of moving forward to more relevant topics regarding grind in GW2.

Seriously, whenever I read a post from you or anyone else about the semantics of the manifesto I’m yelling “O MY GOD WHO THE HELL CARES?” to my screen (well, not really, but I yell it in my mind).

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Aidenwolf.5964:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

You continue to assert that the manifesto didn’t reference gear grind. Colin specified in this very post that in fact gear was exactly what the manifesto meant. You’re stuck in a loop while the actual clarification you say is somewhere in cyber space that backs your claims is in fact on page 4 of this post and refutes your claims. Colin stated that the manifesto against grind did in fact mean gear grind. You’re not arguing semantics you’re arguing against confirmed fact.

I think you quoted the wrong person here friend. :P I’m not Vayne.

It’s okay, I’m ignoring the lot of you now anyway. Since you have pretty much called my a liar, saying that what I said couldn’t be said and since I don’t have time these days to look through hours and hours of four year old videos, it’s easier just to move on.

Hope someone does take the time to do that and proves what I’m saying, but it really doesn’t matter.

I’m not calling you a liar, unless you’d argue that the manifesto specifically states that gear grind is not a part of the no-grind philosophy (because that would be a lie). I’m just saying that the post you make are completely irrelevant and you keep this discussion going in circles instead of moving forward to more relevant topics regarding grind in GW2.

Seriously, whenever I read a post from you or anyone else about the semantics of the manifesto I’m yelling “O MY GOD WHO THE HELL CARES?” to my screen (well, not really, but I yell it in my mind).

There is a person in this thread who said Anet lied. That Colin lied. Everyone is a liar. You may think that behavior is acceptable, but I don’t. If you guys want to believe what you think the manifesto said despite what Anet said about it around the time it was made, that’s fine. I don’t care.

If you want to malign people who are hard working developers on the flimiest of evidence that would be laughed out of any court of law, that’s another story.

You guys want to talk about grind, surely you can do it without directly attacking people.

Ehh I am going to add my 2c here. someone said that its not possible for people who claim that anet added no grind and those who claim the game is grindy to be both right… actually its very possible and not just possible but they’re indeed both right.

see the manifesto is a declaration of intent, what the design is going for. Now people incorrectly assume that going for a none grind based design means there would be no goals that require a long time to achieve.

This is an MMO by definition it needs to have long term goals, that isnt a change of direction thats how it has to be. Hence what arenanet did to keep in line with their declared intend of having no grind is by making sure no matter whatever you may feel like doing contributes towards the goal you want to achieve.

At the end of the day there is more then one way to skin a cat <— seriously who came up with this, we need a new less gruesome saying. Anet didnt remove grind by making sure you can get stuff with relative easy as that would make for one short boring MMO. They removed grind by letting you keep doing what you’re doing in order to achieve your goal. Example even someone who never spent a second to gather stuff to get ascended gear by now can probably easily get a full set (provided they played regularly and leveled up their crafting) if they didnt level up their crafting they probably have the resources to do it.

Its like free healthcare in a way. free healthcare is an intent… it doesnt mean healthcare doesnt cost any money whatsoever it just mean people who need it have it without having to pay. indirectly they’re still paying for it through taxes but the intention behind it is not that no money is spent on healthcare its that if you needed you’ll never be denied cause you arent able to pay.

now at the end of the day whether the game is grindy or not depends on your play style.

if you’re the type of player who plays to enjoy the game rather then get specific rewards the game will not feel grindy for you. It also means it will take months for you to get what others get in weeks but you dont care because you’re playing the game for months anyway and not having those rewards is not stopping you from enjoying any part of the game. Such players will claim Anet didnt lie and they delivered their intent successfully.

Then there is another type of player who plays primary for the rewards. This kind of player will see what is required to earn the reward they’re interested in and they will go methodologically completing each requirements in the most efficient way possible. Naturally these player unless they’re lucky enough to have the requirements be the same thing they enjoy doing are going to feel the game is extremely grindy and it would be grindy for them.

Neither play style is wrong of course and neither player is doing anything wrong. But yes its also certainly possible to have a game that 1 player finds has no grinding at all and an other player finds is the most grindy thing they have ever played. It all depends on how you approach the game. As for lies I dont feel any have been told, they went about with a design that supports the vision they stated in the manifesto that that vision might not be how every player wanted it implemented is irrelevant.

Some people feel that Free to play should mean you never have to pay for anything. Thats naturally never the case because every publisher’s (or nearly every publisher) definition of free to play is “we dont charge you to play the game, we charge you for extras instead” If players complain that MMO x isnt really free to play cause they sell cosmetic stuff in the cash shop it doesnt mean the publisher lied when they said the game is free to play.

Same here. They designed a lot of stuff in such a way to make sure grinding could be avoided. Designs that had costs associated with them (like having gold a currency that could be used to acquire nearly everything for example) That made a lot of things less fun then they could be and caused them quite a few PR nightmares but it was necessary in the grand scheme of things. Its the major driver of how people can easily avoid grinding.

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Aidenwolf.5964:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

You continue to assert that the manifesto didn’t reference gear grind. Colin specified in this very post that in fact gear was exactly what the manifesto meant. You’re stuck in a loop while the actual clarification you say is somewhere in cyber space that backs your claims is in fact on page 4 of this post and refutes your claims. Colin stated that the manifesto against grind did in fact mean gear grind. You’re not arguing semantics you’re arguing against confirmed fact.

I think you quoted the wrong person here friend. :P I’m not Vayne.

It’s okay, I’m ignoring the lot of you now anyway. Since you have pretty much called my a liar, saying that what I said couldn’t be said and since I don’t have time these days to look through hours and hours of four year old videos, it’s easier just to move on.

Hope someone does take the time to do that and proves what I’m saying, but it really doesn’t matter.

I’m not calling you a liar, unless you’d argue that the manifesto specifically states that gear grind is not a part of the no-grind philosophy (because that would be a lie). I’m just saying that the post you make are completely irrelevant and you keep this discussion going in circles instead of moving forward to more relevant topics regarding grind in GW2.

Seriously, whenever I read a post from you or anyone else about the semantics of the manifesto I’m yelling “O MY GOD WHO THE HELL CARES?” to my screen (well, not really, but I yell it in my mind).

There is a person in this thread who said Anet lied. That Colin lied. Everyone is a liar. You may think that behavior is acceptable, but I don’t. If you guys want to believe what you think the manifesto said despite what Anet said about it around the time it was made, that’s fine. I don’t care.

If you want to malign people who are hard working developers on the flimiest of evidence that would be laughed out of any court of law, that’s another story.

You guys want to talk about grind, surely you can do it without directly attacking people.

You’re barking up the wrong tree here mate. I never called Anet or Colin a liar and I never attacked either of them.

I am, however, unhappy with the direction Anet took GW2 in and I am here to discuss the grind we have in GW2 and who the game feels so grindy and how Anet could potentially solve this feeling. I am not here to discuss semantics or irrelevant details about what has or has not been written in the manifesto.

I do think that GW2 is grindy. I think all MMOs, to some extent are grindy.

Do people think that it’s possible to have a long term goal that isn’t grindy? By that I mean a goal that keeps players occupied in the time between when different content patches are released?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Aidenwolf.5964:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?

You continue to assert that the manifesto didn’t reference gear grind. Colin specified in this very post that in fact gear was exactly what the manifesto meant. You’re stuck in a loop while the actual clarification you say is somewhere in cyber space that backs your claims is in fact on page 4 of this post and refutes your claims. Colin stated that the manifesto against grind did in fact mean gear grind. You’re not arguing semantics you’re arguing against confirmed fact.

I think you quoted the wrong person here friend. :P I’m not Vayne.

It’s okay, I’m ignoring the lot of you now anyway. Since you have pretty much called my a liar, saying that what I said couldn’t be said and since I don’t have time these days to look through hours and hours of four year old videos, it’s easier just to move on.

Hope someone does take the time to do that and proves what I’m saying, but it really doesn’t matter.

I’m not calling you a liar, unless you’d argue that the manifesto specifically states that gear grind is not a part of the no-grind philosophy (because that would be a lie). I’m just saying that the post you make are completely irrelevant and you keep this discussion going in circles instead of moving forward to more relevant topics regarding grind in GW2.

Seriously, whenever I read a post from you or anyone else about the semantics of the manifesto I’m yelling “O MY GOD WHO THE HELL CARES?” to my screen (well, not really, but I yell it in my mind).

There is a person in this thread who said Anet lied. That Colin lied. Everyone is a liar. You may think that behavior is acceptable, but I don’t. If you guys want to believe what you think the manifesto said despite what Anet said about it around the time it was made, that’s fine. I don’t care.

If you want to malign people who are hard working developers on the flimiest of evidence that would be laughed out of any court of law, that’s another story.

You guys want to talk about grind, surely you can do it without directly attacking people.

You’re barking up the wrong tree here mate. I never called Anet or Colin a liar and I never attacked either of them.

I am, however, unhappy with the direction Anet took GW2 in and I am here to discuss the grind we have in GW2 and who the game feels so grindy and how Anet could potentially solve this feeling. I am not here to discuss semantics or irrelevant details about what has or has not been written in the manifesto.

I never replied to you till you attacked me. Read through Test’s posts. It was him calling people a liar that pulled me into this to this degree. I responded to him, you responded to me.

At that point, since I’m defending against him I also have to defend against you. If you want to support those kind of allegations, go ahead. But if you respond to me, you can bet I’ll respond to you.

As I said many times, there were changes in the game. It’s obvious there were. I don’t believe most of those changes were intended from the days of the manifesto, I believe they resulted from something else completely.

I still think that it’s easy to tell people they were wrong to add ascended gear without having all the fact, and none of us have those facts.

But the facts we do have are definitely being twisted by someone who is out to malign the company. And I’m not really okay with that.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.

And like the stuff in the Guild Wars 2 cash shop, they’re cosmetic.

For the rest of the stuff, you can farm for stuff, or you can buy it, or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out. If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.

Glad I don’t play that way.

“I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.”

I did play it and yes there are a few of those items (so little that in a list of about 300 mounts I wanted to hunt down, only 10 where not possible because they were in the cash-shop or on a card game or something like that). Still the majority I can hunt down in the world, while the majority in GW2 I can only grind for. Really I rather have a few items I can’t get at all (without buying) and by far most that I can hunt down in the world. Then to be able to get them almost all but by far most only by grinding (or by buying) and a small number I can directly hunt down in the world.

This is because I want to have fun in the game, and I don’t consider grinding boring, not fun.

“or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out.” Oow I am not talking about all. Just once in a few a new thing gets added that you might like. It would still be out of reach with ‘casual’ playing.

“If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.” Well for me an MMORPG is for a large part about that yes, not only but a large part. I like the hunt. Not a problem in most MMO’s, in fact it’s a lot of fun, but in GW2 that’s just a boring grind. Nice for you, you don’t play that way but many do.. Why do you think Anet does focus so much on cosmetics? Because it knows people like that. But then they also decide to monetize that hoping people with spend cash on it instead of playing for it resulting in people grinding for it but the hunt for it is dead.

Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.

Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.

Anyway I think your entire outlook on this whole not just grind situation but game situation is completely unrealistic. I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.

“Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.” We are talking about playing the game in general (and how that feels grindy to many people), not about how to get one specific item. So sorry but the only thing irrelevant here is this statement of yours.

“Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.” Grind (the problem we talk about) and cash. And it puts most new stuff in the in the cash-shop resulting for a big part of the grind we see. Yes.

“I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.” Are you now saying.. “yeah it’s bad, but better is not possible”?, I think it is and I have seen better examples of things like hunting down items vs grind in other games.

Galen Grey.4709:

~snip for space

Same here. They designed a lot of stuff in such a way to make sure grinding could be avoided. Designs that had costs associated with them (like having gold a currency that could be used to acquire nearly everything for example) That made a lot of things less fun then they could be and caused them quite a few PR nightmares but it was necessary in the grand scheme of things. Its the major driver of how people can easily avoid grinding.

You are right for the biggest part. I also always say it depends on your playstyle.

However the ‘design choice’ to make everything based on gold is a little strange. You see, if they would really find this important the only thing they would have to do is make all items not account-bound (Personally I think some should be, and some should not.. but that’s another discussion).

Then put items behind specific content so those who like to hunt down items still can. Now the option to hunt is there (Obviously this is a problem for the cash-shop approach but then again, that is why we did buy a B2P game and not a F2P game and why I also always mention that and how they should focus on expansions). But the option to grind for gold.. or like you say, play like you want and earn gold that way, is also there. All those items that are not account-bound will end up on the TP so you will be able to buy them.

Now those who like to hunt down items can, and those who like to grind can and those who want to do other stuff, get some money and one in a while buy something they like buy.

So I think it’s a little strange to think they somehow had to design it this way to prevent the need to grind and let people play the way they want. Because the opposite is true. Now people cannot play the way they want, if what they want is hunting down items.

No it’s more likely they designed it this way in a way to earn money on those items, so not with best interest of the game but pure financially. What can be very well defended in a F2P game as you mention but imho not in a B2P game.

this design had nothing to do with improving the game or making it so that people could play the way they liked and if it was it was the worse design ever because it resulting in exactly the opposite.

I find this conversation hilarious because the same one is going on in two other forums for games that I play right now. The Exact Same Conversation.

Galen Grey.4709:

now at the end of the day whether the game is grindy or not depends on your play style.

This is used again and again as rebuttal for games like Grind Wars 2.

“It’s totally up to how you want to play…..stand in a field all day with your rusty spoon wacking on potatoes…no grind at all…”.

The vast majority of people who play games like this want the best loot they can get. It’s an inherent part of the genres mechanic, the need to attain. The most efficient way to garner or attain such loot is too repeat content over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again in the most efficient way possible.

This game dictates that. Repetition of content is a core mechanic in order to attain reward.

That is grind….

TooBz.3065:

I do think that GW2 is grindy. I think all MMOs, to some extent are grindy.

Do people think that it’s possible to have a long term goal that isn’t grindy? By that I mean a goal that keeps players occupied in the time between when different content patches are released?

Why does it have to be one big goal? could it not also be many different smaller goals? and yes I think that is very well possible.

It’s how I played other mmo’s and I did never feel a heavy grind there, nothing close to what GW2 offers, if I was to do what I like (hunting down items, from cosmetics, to hunter pets). Now I do not do that in GW2 because I dislike the grind but is does mean a big part of the game and ‘the way I like to play’ is gone making the game as total more boring as it could be.

You design a game that is all build around cosmetics, talk about a no-grind-philosophy and that people can play the way they want. But in the same game the only way to get those cosmetics is by grinding for them and if you like to hunt them down it’s not possible to play that way. How and why are people even defending this or do they think this does not affect the game in a negative way as total?

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I find this conversation hilarious because the same one is going on in two other forums for games that I play right now. The Exact Same Conversation.

Not sure why that is then hilarious but it for sure is a problem you see in more games. In fact, because this is a problem in multiple games this game even used it to promote the game with the ‘no-grind-philosophy’.

TooBz.3065:

I do think that GW2 is grindy. I think all MMOs, to some extent are grindy.

Do people think that it’s possible to have a long term goal that isn’t grindy? By that I mean a goal that keeps players occupied in the time between when different content patches are released?

There is only one way, what guild wars does…. long term goals you can achieve by playing the content you want. Alas even though technically its a great idea in practice it doesnt play that well for people arent content to simply achieve that goal but they want to achieve it in the shortest time possible which is where in my opinion that approach falls apart.

33 pages of “Colin said this” vs “No, he said that”

WTF does it matter what he said or what he meant?? And do any of you realize that the argument you are having is actually about what “grind” means, which is entirely subjective and differs from player to player? Also, to the people arguing there is a grind in this game, why don’t you just kittening do something else if you don’t like it? This is the stupidest thread, and you people are arguing for no kittening reason other than nobody will let it go.

Specifically the blame for this thread falls on the people who continually refer to Colin’s statements in the Manifesto as if they were in any way a legally binding agreement. Guess what? Things change in 4 years! Even if you’re 100% right about what he said, and not twisting it for your own argument (which is a joke, because that’s exactly what you’re doing), who cares if things are different now? That’s how the universe works! If you can’t deal with it, your life is going to look like this thread. Is that what you want?

So, seeing as no amount of asinine debating is going to change the reality of the game, those of you who are legitimately upset about this are left with a couple options:

1. Get over it and stop playing GW2
2. Get over it and keep playing GW2

I swear… this thread moved past constructiveness long ago and should be locked ASAP. This is just ridiculous, and you should all feel bad for continuing to engage in this pointless conversation.

Andred.1087:

33 pages of “Colin said this” vs “No, he said that”

WTF does it matter what he said or what he meant?? And do any of you realize that the argument you are having is actually about what “grind” means, which is entirely subjective and differs from player to player? Also, to the people arguing there is a grind in this game, why don’t you just kittening do something else if you don’t like it? This is the stupidest thread, and you people are arguing for no kittening reason other than nobody will let it go.

Specifically the blame for this thread falls on the people who continually refer to Colin’s statements in the Manifesto as if they were in any way a legally binding agreement. Guess what? Things change in 4 years! Even if you’re 100% right about what he said, and not twisting it for your own argument (which is a joke, because that’s exactly what you’re doing), who cares if things are different now? That’s how the universe works! If you can’t deal with it, your life is going to look like this thread. Is that what you want?

So, seeing as no amount of asinine debating is going to change the reality of the game, those of you who are legitimately upset about this are left with a couple options:

1. Get over it and stop playing GW2
2. Get over it and keep playing GW2

I swear… this thread moved past constructiveness long ago and should be locked ASAP. This is just ridiculous, and you should all feel bad for continuing to engage in this pointless conversation.

I think there is a very interesting discussion to be had about goals, attainability of those goals, replayability, customer retention, and other things that are all related to the perception of grind (not that most people are interested in having them).

But I agree that the manifesto discussion is a distraction.

However, yelling and people and telling them to feel bad is equally counter productive.

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

~snip for space

Same here. They designed a lot of stuff in such a way to make sure grinding could be avoided. Designs that had costs associated with them (like having gold a currency that could be used to acquire nearly everything for example) That made a lot of things less fun then they could be and caused them quite a few PR nightmares but it was necessary in the grand scheme of things. Its the major driver of how people can easily avoid grinding.

You are right for the biggest part. I also always say it depends on your playstyle.

However the ‘design choice’ to make everything based on gold is a little strange. You see, if they would really find this important the only thing they would have to do is make all items not account-bound (Personally I think some should be, and some should not.. but that’s another discussion).

Then put items behind specific content so those who like to hunt down items still can. Now the option to hunt is there (Obviously this is a problem for the cash-shop approach but then again, that is why we did buy a B2P game and not a F2P game and why I also always mention that and how they should focus on expansions). But the option to grind for gold.. or like you say, play like you want and earn gold that way, is also there. All those items that are not account-bound will end up on the TP so you will be able to buy them.

Now those who like to hunt down items can, and those who like to grind can and those who want to do other stuff, get some money and one in a while buy something they like buy.

So I think it’s a little strange to think they somehow had to design it this way to prevent the need to grind and let people play the way they want. Because the opposite is true. Now people cannot play the way they want, if what they want is hunting down items.

No it’s more likely they designed it this way in a way to earn money on those items, so not with best interest of the game but pure financially. What can be very well defended in a F2P game as you mention but imho not in a B2P game.

this design had nothing to do with improving the game or making it so that people could play the way they liked and if it was it was the worse design ever because it resulting in exactly the opposite.

Quite the opposite. hiding rewards behind specific content creates a much larger grind. If they say hide ascended weapons behind dungeons than if you wanted an ascended weapon and you just could stand dungeons you had no other option but grind dungeons. Further more if today you’re totally fed up with dungeons playing something else to variety a bit will result in you making 0 progress towards your target.

You might argue you could do them both, which well they already did. Strictly speaking your ascended weapon could drop at any time. Granted the implementation could use some work I am totally with you there in that if they want to keep this extremely low drop rate the least they could do is make sure if it drops you’re free to select stats type and weapon type. which I dont believe they do yet (I might be wrong never had one drop on me) A slight bump up in odds of one dropping would also be a good idea

The crux of what I disagree with what you said is this " Because the opposite is true. Now people cannot play the way they want, if what they want is hunting down items."

Rewards themselves are not game play and weren’t designed to be game play. You dont play getting the reward you play content and get the reward from doing so. play the way you want means choosing which ever content you want to play and hunting down items directly is not content.

Andred.1087:

Also, to the people arguing there is a grind in this game, why don’t you just kittening do something else if you don’t like it?

Here I was with the false assumption this was the medium given to the player base to debate such things. Clearly I forgot that if I or any other player takes issue with any part of the game I should just “get over it” and move on.

Apologies for the inconvenience and thanks for pointing it out…rather than just doing something else.

Devata.6589:

“Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.” We are talking about playing the game in general (and how that feels grindy to many people), not about how to get one specific item. So sorry but the only thing irrelevant here is this statement of yours.

“Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.” Grind (the problem we talk about) and cash. And it puts most new stuff in the in the cash-shop resulting for a big part of the grind we see. Yes.

Lets have some fun conversations for the next 4 weeks
When an old gg is feeling some ’’burnout’’ and he needs a break , i feel happy for him . He can work again later on as ‘’external storyteller’’ :P

So when you blamed GW2 as P2W in an other thread , without understanding at all that that you can buy 100% of the gem store items without wasting any real money , but in WoW it is ok ….
What kind of logic is that ???
Have you stepped back for a sec with the heavy metal keystrokes and think that ?
Have you consider that the UNIFIED CURRENCY that you let you buy anything in the gem store+Action House is gold ? And the the GOLD like all games in rewarded from various activities and not a specific spot-activity ?

You havent played Hardcore Raids in WoW ?
Then why when i asked you about : ‘’if they implant a item into the raids with low chance , isnt that Grind ?’’
And you answered ‘’YOU DONT HAVE TO DO IF YOU WANT’’

Have you again stepped back and think what you type?
I say it once more …. YOU WANT GRIND . YOU WANT MORE THINGS TO COLLECT INGAME AND WITH THE ACHIV PANEL WITH MINIMUL AMOUNT OF %DROP CHANCE

Lets do that more hardcore …..
Show us a link us some photos of your account …
Wardrobe + Pet Collection …etc…
I want to see if you have some minipets that have low chance to drop from some bosses and some other info i want to see …
I want to see how does a COLLECTOR acccount LOOKS LIKE .
Otherwise for the next 4 weeks we will go in circles and the thread will be closed .

BTW, I am still waiting for answers, and evidence for these questions…

Please answer the following questions in no more than a single sentence, and please provide at least 1 link to confirm your answer.

Are there enemies in the game that do not provide the regular materials (or the means to aquire said materials) needed to craft Ascended armor of any weight? (excluding World Bosses and world boss “adds”)

How many methods are there for aquiring ascended crafting materials? (i.e. Bloodstone dust, Empyreal fragments, dragonite ore)

Which game mode (i.e. open world PvE, dungeons, WvW, PvP, EotM, etc.) does not provide the materials (ascended or otherwise) needed to craft ascended armor?

Which game mode do I have no choice but to participate in in order to craft ascended armor? (not counting crafting, as it’s kind of a key component?)

Which game mode does not provide any in-game money?

Which activities in the game do not provide any in-game money?

Am I barred from crafting ascended armor if I choose not to participate in any particular game mode at any time?

Am I required to participate in any particular game mode, do specific events, or kill specific enemies in order to craft ascended?

Am I required (having no choice) to do anything in-game repeatedly without variation in order to craft ascended armor? (i.e. kill specific enemies, do specific events, etc.)

Note: Please. We all know that this game, as well as any other MMO in the history of MMOs does have a repetitive nature. Repeating content is VERY different from grinding. The former is simply because there is only so much one can do. The latter is being stuck in a single event chain, or area with no option to leave because there is no other way to progress. And progression in this context refers to crafting ascended armor, and aquiring materials.

That’s redundant rebuttal.

Grind walks hand in hand with efficiency of attaining reward. Your argument is that players have the choice to attain such rewards otherwise in a vastly inferior manner, if not pure coincidence…so that negates grind.

Grind by it’s very nature negates such argument.