Guild Wars 2

raahk.2786:

I hope that update to thief pistol mainhand actually makes it viable since thieves are getting nerfed yet again, while warriors still get never-ending buffs that they don’t deserve or need.
The only reason people complained about flanking strike was because it made bunkering harder for pvp babies, and, as usual in any MMO or really any game that includes a stealth-based class, people just have to call for nerfs.

I’m sick of nerfs. I shouldn’t have to use food buffs and D/D to be viable in world versus world, and spvp is going to be more of a pain since flanking strike is going to be nerfed yet again, while bunkers still reign supreme. Or condition stacking, but that’s another issue entirely, at least until the update hits and rangers are suddenly able to reveal thieves and disable a core mechanic at the push of a button. The counter to stealthing is being a good player, but there’s a severe lack of those in this game.

Again, I hope that pistol update makes it so I can actually use pistols without being laughed at. Maybe I’ll be able to disable mesmer clones, or halve the damage output of a warrior with it.
But since it’s not a change to “unload” then I’m just going to assume it’s an update to bodyshot that doesn’t change the functionality of pistols in the slightest. Especially dual pistols, which you need to build all of your traits around just to function, poorly.

This. Sure is a good thing we have one class that never gets any love but that stream of nerfs is NEVER ENDING.

raahk.2786:

Considering the burst available to a ranger, the conditions, and how easy it is to be downed as thief, then I’d say yes, at least if the thief is stealth-based. You’ve obviously never played as thief.

An earlier counter one of you thieves gave for countering a thief is to not run glassy. A ranger is only capable of acceptable burst if they are glassy. Rangers don’t do high burst. Which you would know if you actually played a ranger.

And yes, I have a thief. She’s one of my two WvWers. Cuz my ranger sure as heck isn’t. And you could have told that I run a thief. Check my sig, good sir.

Archon.7516:

This. Sure is a good thing we have one class that never gets any love but that stream of nerfs is NEVER ENDING.

Really? Really? Thief has gotten buffs. Multiple times.

Now the ranger. The ranger has gotten nerfed. Every time rangers found a way around our weaknesses. Instead of people discovering the counter plays they got nerfed due to cries from the community. Every time.

So please don’t tell me you’re the weakest class. You’re really not.

Ranger Dots already are a hard counter for thief.. lets give them EVEN MORE tools against. At this point I’m pretty much done with this game, between YET ANOTHER nerf and this idiotic gem grubbing League system it is clear you do not care/listen to your community.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

Considering the burst available to a ranger, the conditions, and how easy it is to be downed as thief, then I’d say yes, at least if the thief is stealth-based. You’ve obviously never played as thief.

An earlier counter one of you thieves gave for countering a thief is to not run glassy. A ranger is only capable of acceptable burst if they are glassy. Rangers don’t do high burst. Which you would know if you actually played a ranger.

And yes, I have a thief. She’s one of my two WvWers. Cuz my ranger sure as heck isn’t. And you could have told that I run a thief. Check my sig, good sir.

Except if rangers don’t run glassy, they run conditions, which do an extremely large amount of damage if not removed quickly, and if they don’t do that, they can run bunker, which still does good damage and has extremely survivability. What do thieves have outside damage and stealth?

Oh wait, nothing. Our conditions consist of bleeds, which can -still- be overwritten by something like another player’s autoattack. We have no options for any other builds other than glassy because otherwise, thieves aren’t viable. Sure, you can be annoying in world versus world with pistol/dagger, but it’s unusable in spvp and it never accomplishes anything in either gametype, either.

Rangers have multiple options. Thieves? Not so much. k

edit

Thieves being buffed has been circumventing by them nerfing the only useful buffs that we have gotten, case in point, the sword/dagger buff that has been since nerfed into oblivion and will be nerfed yet again to the point of near-uselessness.

It’s funny that you think rangers have gotten nerfed as badly as thieves have, even though they’ve been dominating the pvp metagame since beta.

Unless you’re just talking pve, in which case yes, you’re only good for your spotter and frost spirit.

Doomdesire.9365:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough. Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp. Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Thieves being useless without Stealth =/= Stealth being a core mechanic of Thieves.

I could claim that Warriors are useless without the ability to remove Cripple/Immobilize/Chill, that does not make Snare Removal a core mechanic of the Warrior.
And Warriors really are useless without Snare Removals.

You haven’t explained why stealth isn’t a core mechanic yet. All you’ve done is say it isn’t and bring up an example that really doesn’t make sense. There are viable builds without snare removal for warriors. I don’t supposed you’ve ever seen a perplexity CC spamming warrior, have you?

Stealth has an entire trait line for thieves. How is that not a core mechanic? There isn’t any entire trait line devoted to snare removal for warriors. The comparison doesn’t make sense.

He defined core mechanic as a mechanic that the class cannot play without. If you define core mechanic as “entire trait line”, then Guardians have an entire trait line devoted to Blocking. Then Blocking is a core mechanic to Guardians. Remove all Unblockable attacks from the game. Why should Thieves get a core mechanic that is not removable and Guardians dont?
CORE MECHANICS SHOULD HAVE NO COUNTER, RIGHT?
While you are at it, make my Mesmer clones Invulnerable until i Shatter them. People killing my clones are stopping me from using my “core mechanic which has a dedicated trait line” of Shatter skills.

I think is a GREAT idea to rethink the support role of elementalist’s skills (water on top of the list as said almost everywhere in this thread ), but please do not sacrifice the DPS/condition-maker role of some of them (es fire or earth), because if i’m running alone in the world and a group of mob spots me..i need DPS skills not “support” because i’m alone .
In this optic i think that the ele’s weapons could have a specific role

staff: support
dagger: fast/hight dps
focus: defence
scepter: mixed dps/support (as it is i think)

Another thing that lacks in the elementalists is the possibility to switch weapon.
I know that ele’s skills change theirs weapon skills based on the attunament and having the possibility to switch the weapon in combat is a too big advantage, but add the possibility to switch when i’m OUT of the combat as it is now but WITHOUT

open the inventary→ search for the weapon- >double click on it→ close the inventary

will be FANTASTIC, often something hit you when you have just open the inventary

I think that add this way to fast change the weapon could help the players to switch more often between two or more weapons and encourage to use the ele as supporter when you see somene in difficulty

and only another thing…i’m asking too much if i suggest to reduce time in wich you are out of combat? Expecially in dungeons i’ve seen that players without condition and not under attack presists in a “combat state” for a long period making the defeated player unable to rezone.

Thank!!!

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough. Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp. Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Thieves being useless without Stealth =/= Stealth being a core mechanic of Thieves.

I could claim that Warriors are useless without the ability to remove Cripple/Immobilize/Chill, that does not make Snare Removal a core mechanic of the Warrior.
And Warriors really are useless without Snare Removals.

You haven’t explained why stealth isn’t a core mechanic yet. All you’ve done is say it isn’t and bring up an example that really doesn’t make sense. There are viable builds without snare removal for warriors. I don’t supposed you’ve ever seen a perplexity CC spamming warrior, have you?

Stealth has an entire trait line for thieves. How is that not a core mechanic? There isn’t any entire trait line devoted to snare removal for warriors. The comparison doesn’t make sense.

He defined core mechanic as a mechanic that the class cannot play without. If you define core mechanic as “entire trait line”, then Guardians have an entire trait line devoted to Blocking. Then Blocking is a core mechanic to Guardians. Remove all Unblockable attacks from the game. Why should Thieves get a core mechanic that is not removable and Guardians dont?
While you are at it, make my Mesmer clones Invulnerable until i Shatter them. People killing my clones are stopping me from using my “core mechanic which has a dedicated trait line” of Shatter skills.

You just stated that he defined a core mechanic as a mechanic that the class cannot play without, and then you go and list off a traitline that most guardian players, myself included, play without.

Stealthing is a core mechanic because not only does it make sure that a thief is able to live for more then five seconds, it’s also one of the most useful traitlines, has an appearance on all but two skill bars on the weaponsets, and is featured in some of the most useful utility skills.

You thinking that stealthing is just as overpowered as invincible mesmer clones shows your naivety.
And it’s essentially proving mine and other’s points about how stealthing is a core mechanic of thieves, since you again made the comparison of mesmer clones to thief stealthing.

raahk.2786:

It’s funny that you think rangers have gotten nerfed as badly as thieves have, even though they’ve been dominating the pvp metagame since beta.

Dominating PvP since beta? No. They were nerfed hard between beta and launch. Most of the time they’ve been near the bottom alongside the warrior. We’ve had three seperate builds become viable before getting nerfed. First trap ranger. Then beastmaster. Then spirit ranger. All have been partially nerfed. And not a single one was considered at the top. Spirit ranger has been the most powerful one, but still was never the top. Never dominating.

If you want to look at dominating, there are several other classes I can point to. Like necro, elementalist, and guardian.

I may not play PvP, but I do know my class in all game modes. Even if for no other reason than to know why we’ve been nerfed time and time again.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

It’s funny that you think rangers have gotten nerfed as badly as thieves have, even though they’ve been dominating the pvp metagame since beta.

Dominating PvP since beta? No. They were nerfed hard between beta and launch. Most of the time they’ve been near the bottom alongside the warrior. We’ve had three seperate builds become viable before getting nerfed. First trap ranger. Then beastmaster. Then spirit ranger. All have been partially nerfed. And not a single one was considered at the top. Spirit ranger has been the most powerful one, but still was never the top. Never dominating.

If you want to look at dominating, there are several other classes I can point to. Like necro, elementalist, and guardian.

I may not play PvP, but I do know my class in all game modes. Even if for no other reason than to know why we’ve been nerfed time and time again.

Except all three of those have been considering as being at the top for various amounts of time, and all of them are still viable as builds. Rangers were nerfed hard in between beta and launch, but they were the most powerful class in pvp during beta and were only made better after the nerf. Spirit ranger especially since it’s still really, really good.
If you don’t play PvP, than you don’t jack all about your class, buddy, and shouldn’t be commenting on how you’re at the bottom of the barrel when you’re actually standing above everyone else.

And you shouldn’t be complaining about other classes you only think are dominating when you’ve just stated that you DON’T PLAY PVP.

raahk.2786:

— snip —

Heh. Seems I’ve riled you a bit and got your attention. Good. I’m sorry you don’t care to hear my opinions because they must obviously be false as they’re not yours.

Yes, spirit ranger is still really good. I know this. It’s currently the most powerful ranger build in PvP. Near useless outside of PvP, though.

Which is a point in and of itself.

All class balance should not revolve around PvP. PvP is the least played game mode. ANet has confirmed this. Class balance should involve all game modes. You may not like changes in PvP that are added because of balance elsewhere. Honestly, I don’t care. PvE and WvW players have suffered through PvP-only balance related patches time and time again. This time it may be the turn for PvP players.

If the devs are still reading, it would be very nice to see a blog post similar to last years, where it took each class, discussed it’s current position in the game, how close you felt them to being in an okay spot (or the spot you want them in), and what spot the dev team is actually aiming for, with the functions the class should be performing well at, and how.

If you guys can take the time to do it that is, we know it’s a busy schedule.

Zanthrax.6538:

liefbread.9513:

Hi, as a thief, it seems as if you’re literally removing the viability of one of our builds if you nerf flanking strike, it will lead to everyone running d/d or d/p… Doesn’t seem logical when trying to promote build variety.

If you honestly think s/d thieves and their flanking strike / larc strike combo doesnt need nerfing then your in denial. Its very strong even highly skilled thieves that play nothing but thief understand the purpose of nerfing it.

Well yeah, the current larcenous strike is strong now, but is it that strong? Considering how fast some classes can apply buffs. S/d is a viable counter for boon reliant builds. Could you say the same after the nerf?

I would understand the nerf myself if:
Larcenous strike applied to multiple targets.
It was spammable, as in there was no flanking strike between.
It stole might stacks first, always.

I agree with liefbread, I think it will cut down build variety. S/d will be still viable after the nerf, yeah, but there’s just better options. In an exaggerated humoristic sense it’s like: “Let’s play rock-paper-scissors. BTW you’re not allowed to use paper”

Jonathan, if you guys think larcenous strike really needs to be changed, how about one of these

Make larcenous strike steal 1 boon and lower the init cost back to 1.

Make larcenous strike remove 2 boons instead off stealing them.

Make larcenous strike remove 1 boon and steal 1.

Keep the 2 boon steals, but make it blockable.

Make larcenous strike remove/steal 1 boon and apply a short daze.

Make larcenous strike remove/steal 1 boon and restore 1 init for every 2 boons the enemy has.

Remove the boon stealing and make it restore 1 init for every boon the enemy has.

Make larcenous strike remove/steal 1 boon and apply few stacks of might or fury for few seconds.

Make larcenous strike remove/steal 1 boon and make it shorten steal CD for 5 seconds if the strike is successful.

Make a successful flanking strike apply a “mark for larceny” for 5-10 seconds. If the target has the mark, larcenous strike will steal 2 boons. If not, then larcenous strike will remove 2 boons.

Sneek

I main Ranger still, but I don’t like the sound of this at all.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Ranger
Sick ‘Em will now apply ‘Revealed” to enemies they target. We want to introduce some counter play to Stealth (players have asked for that for a while), so we thought a pet “catching your scent” might be a cool way to insinuate some anti-stealth into the game.

Unless stealth won’t drop the target anymore, this won’t work. Sic ‘m needs a target, but stealth drops the target. In fact, Sic ’Em is very buggy and stops working for various odd reasons:
“The effect will end prematurely if a shout is used, the pet is given an order, the pet falls in battle, or the pet’s target becomes invisible or defeated. This skill will fail when used while further than 2000 range from the target." (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em%22)

On top of this, I don’t think people are willing to waste a utility slot on it. You don’t encounter stealth all that often and I doubt it’ll be very useful with its 40 second cooldown.

So unless this skill gets a complete overhaul, this won’t be any good.

JonathanSharp.7094:

To help Rangers support allies, we increased the ability ranger pets have to support allies. For instance, the Bear condition removal isn’t strong enough, so we’ll be improving that. Moas and Fern Hound will also be improved.

Pets are a terrible platform. Pets will often die in any and all group content. Give the Ranger utility / elite / weapon skills and traits to support allies, which can not die and don’t have pathing issues.

JonathanSharp.7094:

There will also be # changes to some of the Ranger weapons.

This doesn’t bode well.

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough. Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp. Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Thieves being useless without Stealth =/= Stealth being a core mechanic of Thieves.

I could claim that Warriors are useless without the ability to remove Cripple/Immobilize/Chill, that does not make Snare Removal a core mechanic of the Warrior.
And Warriors really are useless without Snare Removals.

You haven’t explained why stealth isn’t a core mechanic yet. All you’ve done is say it isn’t and bring up an example that really doesn’t make sense. There are viable builds without snare removal for warriors. I don’t supposed you’ve ever seen a perplexity CC spamming warrior, have you?

Stealth has an entire trait line for thieves. How is that not a core mechanic? There isn’t any entire trait line devoted to snare removal for warriors. The comparison doesn’t make sense.

He defined core mechanic as a mechanic that the class cannot play without. If you define core mechanic as “entire trait line”, then Guardians have an entire trait line devoted to Blocking. Then Blocking is a core mechanic to Guardians. Remove all Unblockable attacks from the game. Why should Thieves get a core mechanic that is not removable and Guardians dont?
While you are at it, make my Mesmer clones Invulnerable until i Shatter them. People killing my clones are stopping me from using my “core mechanic which has a dedicated trait line” of Shatter skills.

You just stated that he defined a core mechanic as a mechanic that the class cannot play without, and then you go and list off a traitline that most guardian players, myself included, play without.

Stealthing is a core mechanic because not only does it make sure that a thief is able to live for more then five seconds, it’s also one of the most useful traitlines, has an appearance on all but two skill bars on the weaponsets, and is featured in some of the most useful utility skills.

You thinking that stealthing is just as overpowered as invincible mesmer clones shows your naivety.
And it’s essentially proving mine and other’s points about how stealthing is a core mechanic of thieves, since you again made the comparison of mesmer clones to thief stealthing.

He defined core mechanic as something the class cannot play without. I gave example of something a class cannot play without, without that being a core mechanic.
Stealth is NOT a core mechanic according to his definition, or Snare Removal is also a core mechanic for Warriors.

You defined core mechanic as “entire trait line dedicated to that mechanic” at first. I showed you another trait line that has a counter to it, Blocking, the Valor traitline for Guardians.

Now you add both definitions of core mechanic and say “entire trait line that a class cannot play without”. Then by logic, either that trait line is OP and broken and needs a serious nerf/counter or whole class needs an overhaul, or YOU have not explored the possibilities of the other trait lines.

Please define core mechanic, what you are saying makes no sense.

raahk.2786:

No, I don’t care for your opinions about pvp because you’ve proven to me that you’re just parroting information you’ve heard from others since you just explicitly stated that you don’t play it, at all, and so you’re now trying to change your argument to something different to shift it from the topic at hand. That’s why your opinions are false, and it isn’t because they aren’t mine, it’s because you’re a parrot.

And for the record, I agree that there needs to be a permanent split of balance from spvp, world versus world, and pve. Ranger isn’t the only class that gets shafted in these balance updates.

Not parroting. Information has been gleaned from my own research and observations. My opinions are as valid as yours. That’s why they’re called opinions after all. And I won’t insult you if you won’t insult me again, kay?

No. Ranger isn’t. Nor is thief. Many classes have gotten the short end of the stick somewhere-or-other. That’s the nature of the game. But please don’t try to stop the game from evolving because you don’t like a single change. No class that’s gotten something nerfed liked the change. But you know what? They learned to work around it. Learned new counter play.

That is where you should focus your efforts. That is how we grow and evolve. Not by crying foul and calling for change to not occur.

STAFF ELE –
please fix how slow our skills are. the only thing i think an ele is fast at doing in pvp is rallying thier downed enemies :P

Turtle Dragon.9241:

It seems as if it’s the opposite, and that what you are saying makes little to no sense at all. I clearly defined why stealth is a core mechanic for thieves, but you have seemed to completely ignore what I’ve said, and shoehorn in your own paltry definitions and reasons as to why you think “Sic Em” is a competely fair and unbiased skill.

I’ll state it again, since you need to be spoonfed: Stealthing is a core mechanic of a thief because it is
1) The survivability of a thief, as without stealth a thief is prone to nearly instant death even with an armor type that isn’t berserker due to a lack of any other forms of utility that allow for the survival of a thief
2) the fact that the basic weapon combinations of a thief, all except two, allow a thief to enter stealth
3)The utilities that allow access into stealth, shadow refuge and blinding powder, easily outshine nearly every other form of utility, especially with the trait that increases the duration of stealth.

That good enough? Those enough reasons?
And for the record, there aren’t traitlines based solely around blocking for the guardian, nor is there one solely based around snare removal for the warrior, while on the other hand there are very few other options outside of stealthing traits when specced into the shadow arts line, which makes those comparisons pointless.

And even if a developer comes in here and says “Actually, stealthing isn’t a thief core mechanic” then it still wouldn’t be acceptable for a class to have a stealth removal skill.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

No, I don’t care for your opinions about pvp because you’ve proven to me that you’re just parroting information you’ve heard from others since you just explicitly stated that you don’t play it, at all, and so you’re now trying to change your argument to something different to shift it from the topic at hand. That’s why your opinions are false, and it isn’t because they aren’t mine, it’s because you’re a parrot.

And for the record, I agree that there needs to be a permanent split of balance from spvp, world versus world, and pve. Ranger isn’t the only class that gets shafted in these balance updates.

Not parroting. Information has been gleaned from my own research and observations. My opinions are as valid as yours. That’s why they’re called opinions after all. And I won’t insult you if you won’t insult me again, kay?

No. Ranger isn’t. Nor is thief. Many classes have gotten the short end of the stick somewhere-or-other. That’s the nature of the game. But please don’t try to stop the game from evolving because you don’t like a single change. No class that’s gotten something nerfed liked the change. But you know what? They learned to work around it. Learned new counter play.

That is where you should focus your efforts. That is how we grow and evolve. Not by crying foul and calling for change to not occur.

Except the reason why they’re introducing this skill in the first place is because people didn’t learn how to grow and evolve. They didn’t learn counter play, they kittened and moaned until they’ve finally gotten their way.

Change can be a bad thing too, you know.

raahk.2786:

Except the reason why they’re introducing this skill in the first place is because people didn’t learn how to grow and evolve. They didn’t learn counter play, they kittened and moaned until they’ve finally gotten their way.

Change can be a bad thing too, you know.

It’s no different than the nerf rangers received to spirits and pets because people couldn’t learn counter play then. It’s change for better or worse. And it’s our job to roll with it and show how we’ll evolve.

Hello Jon
And where is the mighty mobility buff for the thiev?

U guys mind tweak how regeneration boon works? Unlike other boons that gives FLAT bonuses from different players, regeneration varies depending on each players healing power so how do we know what the exact of amount of HP healed per second when regeneration is refreshed from another player with less/more healing power than the previous player that apply the regeneration boon?thats y i’m suggesting :
1.change the regeneration skill tooltip to be more precise as to X hp healed/second rather than a vague X hp healed/10 seconds (it helps how my cleric guard could survive multiple burst damage at once by calculating precisely how much i can endure)
2.more importantly make it so that the amount of hp healed from regeneration stacks cumulatively from different players as long as the duration of the boon (and please make it so that we can see the numbers HP healed/second easily by either making an extra number frame on HP UI)

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

Except the reason why they’re introducing this skill in the first place is because people didn’t learn how to grow and evolve. They didn’t learn counter play, they kittened and moaned until they’ve finally gotten their way.

Change can be a bad thing too, you know.

It’s no different than the nerf rangers received to spirits and pets because people couldn’t learn counter play then. It’s change for better or worse. And it’s our job to roll with it and show how we’ll evolve.

It’s actually a lot different considering the spirit ranger was legitimately overpowered in that the only counterplay was killing said spirits, which just gave further buffs to the ranger controlling them, and that those builds still remained viable even after being nerfed, whereas thieves are getting a skill directed towards them that counters a core mechanic (at least to those of us that play thieves) and getting an unremovable debuff in the process. While it may not shaft stealth builds completely, it’s still something that will have to be thought of whenever you’re facing a ranger as a thief, and not taking in consideration the skill level of the opponent, what build they’re using, etc.

Meanwhile, I get low on health, use my heal that stealths me, and suddenly I’m revealed. No thinking, no anything, just hitting a button.

people think that stealth is immediately nullified because of 1 ability on a pet….all it does it give you revealed….guess what….4 seconds later you can go back into perma stealth…calm down thieves its hilarious the panic you people do…

Just for clarity, when you say pvp, make sure you put the ‘s’ in front of it, as most of what you are saying only applies to spvp or solo fights in wvw.

And are they REALLY going to nerf healing spring in all forms of the game just because in spvp it might be useful?

I really wish they would separate all changes between spvp and the real game as almost every change made solely for ‘balance’ in spvp is completely stupid when applied to wvw or pve.

And to the thiefs moaning about a 40 second cool down skill that will miss 90% of the time in any form of the game other than spvp where you are standing guarding some objective and have decided not to move- almost all rangers WILL NOT waste a utility space on a skill that is so useless.

It will be about as useful as the LB skill 3 giving 3 seconds of stealth- which only works if your shot lands on the target and isn’t dodged, blocked by your own pet, blocked by aegis, misses as your blinded, etc etc making it miss most of the time when you actually want to use it.

Pet skills will continue to be useless most of the time in wvw – 1.5 seconds to cast a skill while the pet stands still, try it and see how often that pet stun skill hits…and ranged pet attacks are just lol.

Of course they work fine on bunkers standing on an objective in spvp and we all know that’s the only thing they look at, so dreaming that they will change things so they work in wvw is a waste of time.

raahk.2786:

It’s actually a lot different considering the spirit ranger was legitimately overpowered in that the only counterplay was killing said spirits, which just gave further buffs to the ranger controlling them, and that those builds still remained viable even after being nerfed, whereas thieves are getting a skill directed towards them that counters a core mechanic (at least to those of us that play thieves) and getting an unremovable debuff in the process. While it may not shaft stealth builds completely, it’s still something that will have to be thought of whenever you’re facing a ranger as a thief, and not taking in consideration the skill level of the opponent, what build they’re using, etc.

Meanwhile, I get low on health, use my heal that stealths me, and suddenly I’m revealed. No thinking, no anything, just hitting a button.

Not really any different. It’s change because the community cried and/or ANet decided independently to change it instead of learning counter-play.

Now the way it’s different is that unlike the pet and spirit nerfs, this one is a small temporary setback from a single skill that currently has a 40 second timer. It’ll do nothing more than force you out of stealth for a short period of time. And only if the ranger decides that they want to run thief/mesmer-hate more than more widely useful skills.

Is that really that scary? That you might be without stealth for a short bit? That you might occasionally need to find other ways of surviving/escaping/fighting? If so … how did you reach the top of the leaderboards? *scratches head*

Fun changes! I main a ranger, so my focus is on their changes specifically.

I agree with Holland above – Sick ‘em is very buggy in its current state. I would love for a new reason to bring this shout with me, but until I know that it’s reliable, it might stay off my utility belt.

No, this probably won’t be a skill I kept on my bar 24/7 – however, utilities should be changed around depending on the challenge faced. You bet I’ll bring Sick ‘Em along for the Moss Man fight, and with WvW bloodlust, I’m bringing it with me there when thieves do their annoying thief thing. This looks like a fun change, and I anticipate future balancing to bring this ability up to a point of usefulness. (Probably will take a couple iterations to balance it just right.)

And as far as the health boost to minions – that’s pretty great news. It doesn’t fix the problems, but it’s still a nice head start. It makes me want to use spirits again. I ask that in PvE and WvW though, that spirits don’t die after 60 seconds and act more like necro pets (go on CD upon death). I’ve stopped running with them even before this latest patch because oh my goodness is the re-summoning annoying. Perhaps add this to the grandmaster spirit trait – spirit unbound and no spirit suicide for PvE?

EDIT: I forgot to add something important! I mentioned Sick ‘em is bugged (or very picky) and for that reason I don’t want to use it… But you see, as a ranger player, it’s so important for me to know what my pet’s status is. What boons it has, what conditions it has, and I just can’t with this current system. Please allow me to add my pet to my party or something, so I can see their status. So I can see if they have the sick ‘em “boon”, if I canceled it or if the timer ran out. How many stacks of might did Rampage as One give my pet? Should I heal up my pet because their boons are so great, or just swap pets because they’re a blank slate? And what about the ranger trait that increases our bond with our pet? I’ve never used that trait because I have no idea what it does (the tool tip is unclear, [“increases bond every time you kill a foe”???]) nor can I see it. This transparency is important and falls in line with the changes aimed for this update. Please, if we can somehow get the option to view our pet’s status without selecting the pet mid-combat, all rangers would be incredibly grateful.

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

It seems as if it’s the opposite, and that what you are saying makes little to no sense at all. I clearly defined why stealth is a core mechanic for thieves, but you have seemed to completely ignore what I’ve said, and shoehorn in your own paltry definitions and reasons as to why you think “Sic Em” is a competely fair and unbiased skill.

I’ll state it again, since you need to be spoonfed: Stealthing is a core mechanic of a thief because it is
1) The survivability of a thief, as without stealth a thief is prone to nearly instant death even with an armor type that isn’t berserker due to a lack of any other forms of utility that allow for the survival of a thief
2) the fact that the basic weapon combinations of a thief, all except two, allow a thief to enter stealth
3)The utilities that allow access into stealth, shadow refuge and blinding powder, easily outshine nearly every other form of utility, especially with the trait that increases the duration of stealth.

That good enough? Those enough reasons?
And for the record, there aren’t traitlines based solely around blocking for the guardian, nor is there one solely based around snare removal for the warrior, while on the other hand there are very few other options outside of stealthing traits when specced into the shadow arts line, which makes those comparisons pointless.

And even if a developer comes in here and says “Actually, stealthing isn’t a thief core mechanic” then it still wouldn’t be acceptable for a class to have a stealth removal skill.

1) The survivability of a Thief does not depend on Stealth. You just dont know how to survive without it and are using Stealth as a crutch. Thieves have a lot of Shadowstep and dodge skills, you just prefer Stealth because it is OP. see 3)
2)
Excluding Fields,
The following weapon skills allow the Thief to enter Stealth
Cloak and Dagger
Including Fields,
Cluster Bomb
Heartseeker
Total amount of weapon skills that allow Thief to enter Stealth = 1
With Fields included = 3

The following weapon skills allow the Guardian to Block.
Protector’s Strike
Zealot’s Defense
Shield of Wrath
Shield of Absorption
Refraction
Total amount of Skills that allow the Guardian to Block = 5

The following weapon skills allow the Mesmer to create Clones
Mirror Blade
Phantasmal Berserker
Phase Retreat
Phantasmal Warlock
Ether Clone
Illusionary Counter
Illusionary Leap
Illusionary Riposte
Phantasmal Swordsman
Phantasmal Warden
Phantasmal Duelist
Phantasmal Mage
Feigned Surge
Illusionary Mariner
Spinning Revenge
Illusionary Whaler

Total amount of weapon skills that allow the Mesmer to create clones = 16

1 skill from 1 offhand weapon does NOT make Stealth a core mechanic of Thieves,
5-16 skills from multiple weapons make Blocking and Clones the core mechanic of Guardians and Mesmers respectively.

3) With this, you admit that Stealth is OP given that it outshines every other utility that the Thief has. You are stating that YOU cannot play a Thief without Stealth, that Stealth is YOUR preferred utility slots and that you think every other Thief utility skill is trash. If Stealth utility skills are that much better than everything else, then it clearly deserves a counter or a nerf.

We are talking about 1(one) skill with a 40s cooldown from a PET that stops you from Stealthing for barely a few seconds. We are not talking about every attack from every class removing Stealth from the Thief. A few seconds of Revealed every 40s, that single skill is going to kill every Thief in the whole of GW2? Get good. Even better, learn to use the other utilities that will help you hold out for 4 seconds until you can Stealth again. You just want to remain uncounterable? Me too. Invulnerable Mesmer Clones until Shattered this way please.

again….revealed buff is 4 seconds…then you can go back into stealth again…thieves….its not even a big deal…

Will there be any buffs for condition mesmers in PVE? We are nothing compared to necromancers and we’re just gimping ourselves when we don’t go shatter/phantasm power build. I know cond mesmers got great defence(but then again, so do necromancers) and that “lasting” element works great in PvP, but in PvE damage is just much more important.

Having confusion deal more damage in PvE(or having it do a fixed amount of damage if it doesn’t proc after the dot timer has reached 0) would be a great improvement.

It took Anet one year to finally realize that stealth needs a conter, gamedesign basics…well, better late than never.

This whole stealth crap shouldn’t be in GW2 in the firts place.

I have yet to meet anyone that says “oh, just fought a thief, that was fun!”

The only good fix is the stunbreaker change outside of that most just proves again how bad the balance is, buffing war/gaurd/staff ele will make wvwvw bunkerzergs even more immortal and no counterplay/tools atm for it.

Adding more aoe condi removal because engi/necro condi is out of hand and you simply powercreep condi removal to react is not a good way to balance again, means classes that spec for condi but don;t have the overload like these classes will be hurt even more.

Adding a counter skill to a class mechanic is silly, can i expect skills to stop mesmers from creating clones ? war from gaining adrenaline, ranger from using pets ele’s from swapping atunements etc etc, i hope that the skill ranger get have a fair cd a fair duration are applied from a melee pet and have a clear animation at least.

Next part is specific to what i enjoy playing myself atm and concerns about it.

I mostly play a p/d thief myself, when i see you want to change pistol mainhand to give more support i get worried that you might kill off the condi spec even though inferior to other condi class setups, what p/d currently needs is a small tweak in base bleed duration being upped, 1 extra torment on sneak attack, and a rework on venoms to make them worthwhile, for instance cd to 36 seconds and adding confusion/burn/bleed to these so each venom has at least one offensive condition on it.

reworking body shot to something more worthwhile could be good but i’d still like to see it at least give a condition so you coud cover for removals.

One way to solve (or lessen) the conditions/stack problem could be to limit the number of stacks each skill causes to 1.

Take the elementalist for example: rather than having eruption deal 8 stacks, condense all that damage into a single stack that deals 8 times the damage. Seeing as how the damage is already dependant on the player’s condition damage, adding an ‘8 times modifer’ to the condition damage for that particular skill’s stack should be relatively easy to implement.

The servers would still track the same amount of information, but instead of 3 elementalists reaching the cap, you’d need 25 to reach the cap.

legendary weapon pvp, mom pls

JonathanSharp.7094:

Class balance:

Ranger
Sick ‘Em will now apply ‘Revealed” to enemies they target. We want to introduce some counter play to Stealth (players have asked for that for a while), so we thought a pet “catching your scent” might be a cool way to insinuate some anti-stealth into the game.

To help Rangers support allies, we increased the ability ranger pets have to support allies. For instance, the Bear condition removal isn’t strong enough, so we’ll be improving that. Moas and Fern Hound will also be improved.

There will also be # changes to some of the Ranger weapons.

OMG OMG OMG OMG
They DO listen:

Esrever.8613:

Make pets sense cloaked enemies. I think pets need this. They are so useless against anything that cloaks. Even the AIs.

Maybe make it a trait or something.

awe extender.1908:

+1

Make pets “see” hidden enemies on map.

The proces just takes a long time :-) Quotes are from 8 months ago!

As a main ranger since beta days, I’m really excited about the upcoming fixes.

Now, if only the messy trait lines would get a fix as well ;-)

JonathanSharp.7094:

Class balance:
Elementalist
We’re working on the staff in an effort to make it a stronger support weapon, and we also improved the conjure weapons so that they’re stronger for support. You’ll see improvements to all 4 of the conjure weapons to make them stronger and better for support.

We also increased the healing on Water Blast, the radius on Geyser and we reworked
Unsteady Ground to make it function more like line of warding.

The main issue with the staff is its ability to land its spells. Supportwise, it’s in a pretty good place already. Minor things like making Lava Font deal its damage at the START of the second instead of at the END, making projectiles travel faster and maybe a small buff to non-fire auto attack damage would adress most of this.

Ranger changes look cool, but I still miss 1 very important thing: Longbow users have to choose 2 of 3 Marksman traits (Piercing Arrows, Eagle EyE, Remorseless). No other weapon has such problem – when you want to spec fully into weapon, you always can pick all related traits. I think it’s REALLY needed to either merge 2 of those traits, or move one of them to 1 tier so we can pick them all.

ozzieballista.8015:

No mention of a fix for the WvW lag. With out this these updates mean nothing.

This pretty much the stability of the servers in WvW is pretty bad , I have never experienced this much Skill Lag , usually WvW was running smooth even near big zergs but nowdays it’s just unplayable.

Thank you for the transparency increase guys. This is something we really needed!
Keep up the good work

LionZero.3479:

The only good fix is the stunbreaker change outside of that most just proves again how bad the balance is, buffing war/gaurd/staff ele will make wvwvw bunkerzergs even more immortal and no counterplay/tools atm for it.

As i said somewhere else:

Implying that Anet cares of anything outside Spvp when comes down to balance.

Funny that what’s gettin buffed for sake of spvp is already meta/OP in WvW.

raahk.2786:

Quotes aren’t working, so @turtledragon

So you’re just going to talk trash about the way I play, without knowing how I play, alright, sure, that’s fair, and then assume that you’re automatically correct and that I agree with you? You are a moron.

I use stealth, dodging, and shadowstep. I use stealth not as a crutch, but BECAUSE THERE’S AN ENTIRE TRAITLINE DEVOTED TO IT THAT GIVES BENEFITS FOR STEALTHING.

And your little point about how more weapon skills on other classes means that a thief’s core mechanic isn’t stealthing is just downright pathetic. Thieves have access to stealth on all but two weapon sets. We don’t need more skills to stealth, and thinking that other professions have more of a certain type of skill discounts a thief’s core mechanic being stealth is just downright idiotic.

I haven’t admitted anything. All you’ve done is make baseless assumptions on a player you don’t even know.

To add in to your last little remark, the “get good”, the only reason that this skill is being updated to reveal stealth is because other players couldn’t “get good”. They whined and complained until they got their way, while you go on to claim that I don’t want this because it makes stealth “uncounterable”, even though the most required to counter a thief using stealth is a basic thought process that many guild wars 2 players seem to lack.

Yourself included.

Thieves and stealthing has always been counterable. I’ve had plenty of times where I’ve died in stealth because other players knew what they were doing, or have even gotten lucky. It’s not hard, but people like you make it out to be by claiming that stealthing is “uncounterable”.

I think that the person who thinks their whole class will be useless if 1 skill with a 40 second cooldown from a Pet applies Revealed to them is the one who should get good. Thank you.

Guardians whined as much when they introduced Signet of Might that bypassed Aegis.
Eles whined as much when they introduced Destruction of the Empowered trait on Warriors.

You cry because 1 additional counter to you is added to the game?

Just like Thieves get perma Stealth, I want
Guardians to perma Block all attacks.
Mesmers have Invulnerable clones.
Necros apply Fear to anyone who targets them.
Warriors 100 Blades actually hits 100 times.
Elementalist have all 4 attunements at the same time.

Okay?

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Quotes aren’t working, so @turtledragon

So you’re just going to talk trash about the way I play, without knowing how I play, alright, sure, that’s fair, and then assume that you’re automatically correct and that I agree with you? You are a moron.

I use stealth, dodging, and shadowstep. I use stealth not as a crutch, but BECAUSE THERE’S AN ENTIRE TRAITLINE DEVOTED TO IT THAT GIVES BENEFITS FOR STEALTHING.

And your little point about how more weapon skills on other classes means that a thief’s core mechanic isn’t stealthing is just downright pathetic. Thieves have access to stealth on all but two weapon sets. We don’t need more skills to stealth, and thinking that other professions have more of a certain type of skill discounts a thief’s core mechanic being stealth is just downright idiotic.

I haven’t admitted anything. All you’ve done is make baseless assumptions on a player you don’t even know.

To add in to your last little remark, the “get good”, the only reason that this skill is being updated to reveal stealth is because other players couldn’t “get good”. They whined and complained until they got their way, while you go on to claim that I don’t want this because it makes stealth “uncounterable”, even though the most required to counter a thief using stealth is a basic thought process that many guild wars 2 players seem to lack.

Yourself included.

Thieves and stealthing has always been counterable. I’ve had plenty of times where I’ve died in stealth because other players knew what they were doing, or have even gotten lucky. It’s not hard, but people like you make it out to be by claiming that stealthing is “uncounterable”.

I think that the person who thinks their whole class will be useless if 1 skill with a 40 second cooldown from a Pet applies Revealed to them is the one who should get good. Thank you.

I never said useless, but feel free to make more baseless assumptions.

And whose to say that they won’t decrease the cooldown?
Whose to say they won’t add more, similar skills?

Not only are your points invalid and idiotic, but you also fail to look at the bigger picture.

They totally should, thanks for suggesting it.
Devs please include more skills like Sic Em. All classes should be able to counter Stealth. Spirit Greatsword should apply Revealed within its AoE when Commanded.
Diversion should apply Revealed when Shattered.
Mine Field should apply Revealed when triggered.

And i mean it. Spirit Greatsword has a good enough cooldown to be viable doing it. Same for Diversion. Mine Field is perfect in that it must be triggered by the Thief. This game should reward people who predict where the stealthed Thief is by Revealing the Thief. Thieves should get good about not getting hit by the skills that apply Revealed to them.

Also about Sic Em, dodge button is this way little Thief.

Will we ever get skillbars? Missing them from GW1

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Quotes aren’t working, so @turtledragon

So you’re just going to talk trash about the way I play, without knowing how I play, alright, sure, that’s fair, and then assume that you’re automatically correct and that I agree with you? You are a moron.

I use stealth, dodging, and shadowstep. I use stealth not as a crutch, but BECAUSE THERE’S AN ENTIRE TRAITLINE DEVOTED TO IT THAT GIVES BENEFITS FOR STEALTHING.

And your little point about how more weapon skills on other classes means that a thief’s core mechanic isn’t stealthing is just downright pathetic. Thieves have access to stealth on all but two weapon sets. We don’t need more skills to stealth, and thinking that other professions have more of a certain type of skill discounts a thief’s core mechanic being stealth is just downright idiotic.

I haven’t admitted anything. All you’ve done is make baseless assumptions on a player you don’t even know.

To add in to your last little remark, the “get good”, the only reason that this skill is being updated to reveal stealth is because other players couldn’t “get good”. They whined and complained until they got their way, while you go on to claim that I don’t want this because it makes stealth “uncounterable”, even though the most required to counter a thief using stealth is a basic thought process that many guild wars 2 players seem to lack.

Yourself included.

Thieves and stealthing has always been counterable. I’ve had plenty of times where I’ve died in stealth because other players knew what they were doing, or have even gotten lucky. It’s not hard, but people like you make it out to be by claiming that stealthing is “uncounterable”.

I think that the person who thinks their whole class will be useless if 1 skill with a 40 second cooldown from a Pet applies Revealed to them is the one who should get good. Thank you.

I never said useless, but feel free to make more baseless assumptions.

And whose to say that they won’t decrease the cooldown?
Whose to say they won’t add more, similar skills?

Not only are your points invalid and idiotic, but you also fail to look at the bigger picture.

edit

And no thieves get perma stealth. There’s always a point as to when they’re unstealthed, but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything.

But yes, sure, compare “not accomplishing anything” to being invincible, or brokenly overpowered. Yes. Sure.

“but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything”

I’m sure everyone is familiar with the scenario below:
The Thief attacks you. The Thief cant kill you. The Thief spams dagger/pistol combo to stealth and runs off. The Thief waits for all his skills to recharge. The Thief comes back and tries again, over and over. You on the other hand, cannot do anything about this stealth harasser, because he runs away invisible before you can finish him off. Wait, the Thief can see you and will make sure to run in a completely different direction that you are going to chase him.

So then after the Thief realizes he cannot kill you, he waits for someone to attack you, and then jumps in too. You kill the guy who attacked you, but the Thief realized his ally is dead, and stealths and runs away again, repeat over and over.

What did the Thief accomplish?
He did not get killed by using a broken mechanic.

What did the Thief not accomplish?
Killing You.

So compared with Guardians blocking all incoming attacks and not getting killed while dealing 0 damage themselves, and Necros fearing everyone who targets them, I see their level of survival they provide to be equal to that of Stealth, that is: OP and Broken.

Warrior

Good changes! Condi damage warriors are finally good, Damage dealing and also CC Warriors are in a good place as well, you are buffing just where they need buffing, defensive support.
As you already claimed, they are in a pretty decent place in all formats of the game currently.
You’ve been doing a great job with Warriors as a whole lately, maybe tuning down a little bit of their regen sustain while providing high damage and CC would be good too (which is all cumulative right now), but so far so good.

Guardian

Focusing on Consecrations is a good move, some of them like Consecrated Ground and Purging flames were uderused, improving or reworking underused or underpowered skills is a good move most of the time, all things considered.
With that said, it’s nice to have Instant Meditations without traits finally, but I’m not so sure about adding more damage to Meditation builds is what these DPS Guardian builds actually need to gain more viability. These guardian types, unless carrying reliable swiftness or Greatsowrd are just a sitting duck with relatively poor condition protection and little to no soft CC to avoid kites, it also has no disengage nor roaming capabilities. It sorely needs field movement/roaming. Maybe making Merciful intervention ground targeted would be a good move, with the huge CD it would still be balanced, the skill would see more use and would be more reliable, it would also provide clutch disengage and a small boost to field movement out of combat. (You already know my other suggestions in this regard Jonathan).
Improving mobility through weapon skills and utilities should be a good move. Fury, outside of providing a little more flexibility in gear choises or added damage, it does very little to improve the lacking perks that are holding down DPS Guardians in my opinion.

Ranger

I always said it, and I will always say it, improving and buffing pets directly buffs all possible Ranger builds. So buffing the main class mechanic is the smartest move to improve build diversity as pets can grant from support, to CC or even respectable damage/burst damage.
Concerning the Sick’Em change, I hope it’s just like how you’ve been doing with the Torment condition, slowly adding the revealed debuff to other skills from other professions. Stealth is a mechanic in serious need of a counter right now; a single skill from a single profession wont suffice, but it’s a good starting point to see how it does.
I also agree some Ranger weapon skills need some improvements or overall changes, Sword chain #1 comes to mind.

Thief

Venomous Aura allways had a lot of (mostly offensive) potential support. I always liked how traited venoms can heal, thus providing some help for the thief picking up venoms himself (Leeching Venoms). Said heals could also be improved, at least for the thief him/herself to make those venoms a more desirable choise for the thief. Now concerning defensive support, I think thieves have a lot of potential in terms of boon share, like Mesmers, but not quite, it would be from traits (trickery line?) and steal rather than utility skills.
Now with the Pistol, quite evidently, the better candidate for a rework is the infamous Body Shot. I suggested several months ago for it to be changed into a finisher, being it leap or a blast. A blast would definetly be more supportive, it would also raise P/P viability while comboing it with Black Powder providing the set that much needed escape option.

continues…

…continues here

Engineer

Elixirs are in a good place right now, and also make for decent and viable builds but gaining random boons was often a chore and even gamechanging sometimes. Gaining reliable on demand stealth and stability is both a QoL and a buff. A very good change that will make many Engies happy.
Turrets will recieve a much much needed change, such iconic skills should definetly have a place in the meta, hopefully we could see turret point holder Engies in the near future, or causing some choke point maihem in WvW. Some improvements to direct damage benefitial skills such as Utility Googles or Throw mines could make or break the awaited return of DPS Engies or just to see something else other than all Condition Engies.

Elementalist

The Unsteady Ground change alone could bring back Staff eles to sPvP again, all the added support it’s just added bonus. As I always said, the greatest way to bring build viability to the table is improving weapon skills first and foremost, as clearly seen with Flanking Strike. I always felt Staff was always close to sPvP viability, it’s already strong in WvW also.
A conjure weapon focused Ele is a beast of a build in the making, buffed and traited conjured weapons are definetly going to be really really strong. If Elementalists werent so dependant on either weapon skills or utilities to provide either damage or survivability, this particular build (or utility skills) could be, potentially pretty beastly indeed. I honestly think you are on the right track on this one. If conjures ever change in use similar to Engineer kits (maybe with a CD?), the full viability should be set!

Mes

Mantras were always a favourite of mine, and always needed a little push to reach viability. The main problem holding them back is definetly the cast times, too long for how fast paced the game currently is. I suggest to reduce their cast times from 2¾s to 1½, but increase all the cast times from instant to ¼ of a second, several instant casts can be tricky to balance when it comes to counterplay so it would be an improvent on that regard as well. Yes, no longer usable while CCed, but much more usable while incombat, it would be a fair balance. Area stability and area condi removal are both extremetly strong (ask Guardians if not), and that is a huge boost to support. Good changes

Necromancer

Our beloved dark/blood mages could be on the rise. A selfsustainable life leeching Necromancer is a goal they attempted to reach since beta just by reading the patches. If these changes are as good as they sound, some life leech lovers will definetly rejoice. Life force improvents are always welcome.
Necromancers always had a lot of build diversity: Minions, Wells, terrormancers, and now life force focused, direct damage and the always strong condimancers, or hence a mix of most of them. They always kind of lacked on their bloodline, and you are buffing just that. Just like Warriors, Necromancers are in a very good place right now.

All very good stuff to come, definetly in the right direction. It would have been nice to see some of the nerfs (besides FS), but I’m grateful you’ve given us this preview nonetheless!

JonathanSharp.7094:

Also, pistol main hand may see one of its skills reworked to better support allies. We have multiple prototypes that we’re trying out, so we’ll have to see which we settle on by the next release.

Let me guess which skill is that you’re reworking :P

GOSU.9574:

Please, for the love of kittens, change Ranger sword auto (#1) so you are NOT glued into the combat animation. The one glaring issue with using Sword Ranger in PvP/WvW.

It’s nifty useful in PvE where you can faceroll stay on target since the animation locks you into constantly closing on the target, but this isn’t a reason to leave it as broken as it is.

With all due respect I completely disagree. The stick like glue to your target is an incredibly powerful feature of the ranger Sword #1 attack.

Turn off autoattack.

Someone dodges away? No worries, just press 1 and be back on top them.
You are crippled? No worries, just press 1 and leap to be right on top of your opponent.

For those of us who have worked to master the sword mechanic, removing the stick like glue feature would be a significant nerf.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Quotes aren’t working, so @turtledragon

So you’re just going to talk trash about the way I play, without knowing how I play, alright, sure, that’s fair, and then assume that you’re automatically correct and that I agree with you? You are a moron.

I use stealth, dodging, and shadowstep. I use stealth not as a crutch, but BECAUSE THERE’S AN ENTIRE TRAITLINE DEVOTED TO IT THAT GIVES BENEFITS FOR STEALTHING.

And your little point about how more weapon skills on other classes means that a thief’s core mechanic isn’t stealthing is just downright pathetic. Thieves have access to stealth on all but two weapon sets. We don’t need more skills to stealth, and thinking that other professions have more of a certain type of skill discounts a thief’s core mechanic being stealth is just downright idiotic.

I haven’t admitted anything. All you’ve done is make baseless assumptions on a player you don’t even know.

To add in to your last little remark, the “get good”, the only reason that this skill is being updated to reveal stealth is because other players couldn’t “get good”. They whined and complained until they got their way, while you go on to claim that I don’t want this because it makes stealth “uncounterable”, even though the most required to counter a thief using stealth is a basic thought process that many guild wars 2 players seem to lack.

Yourself included.

Thieves and stealthing has always been counterable. I’ve had plenty of times where I’ve died in stealth because other players knew what they were doing, or have even gotten lucky. It’s not hard, but people like you make it out to be by claiming that stealthing is “uncounterable”.

I think that the person who thinks their whole class will be useless if 1 skill with a 40 second cooldown from a Pet applies Revealed to them is the one who should get good. Thank you.

I never said useless, but feel free to make more baseless assumptions.

And whose to say that they won’t decrease the cooldown?
Whose to say they won’t add more, similar skills?

Not only are your points invalid and idiotic, but you also fail to look at the bigger picture.

edit

And no thieves get perma stealth. There’s always a point as to when they’re unstealthed, but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything.

But yes, sure, compare “not accomplishing anything” to being invincible, or brokenly overpowered. Yes. Sure.

“but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything”

I’m sure everyone is familiar with the scenario below:
The Thief attacks you. The Thief cant kill you. The Thief spams dagger/pistol combo to stealth and runs off. The Thief waits for all his skills to recharge. The Thief comes back and tries again, over and over. You on the other hand, cannot do anything about this stealth harasser, because he runs away invisible before you can finish him off. Wait, the Thief can see you and will make sure to run in a completely different direction that you are going to chase him.

So then after the Thief realizes he cannot kill you, he waits for someone to attack you, and then jumps in too. You kill the guy who attacked you, but the Thief realized his ally is dead, and stealths and runs away again, repeat over and over.

What did the Thief accomplish?
He did not get killed by using a broken mechanic.

What did the Thief not accomplish?
Killing You.

So compared with Guardians blocking all incoming attacks and not getting killed while dealing 0 damage themselves, and Necros fearing everyone who targets them, I see their level of survival they provide to be equal to that of Stealth, that is: OP and Broken.

And you’re telling me to get good.
Follow your own advice if you think that a situation like that in world versus world of all things is actual proof of stealth being overpowered.

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Quotes aren’t working, so @turtledragon

So you’re just going to talk trash about the way I play, without knowing how I play, alright, sure, that’s fair, and then assume that you’re automatically correct and that I agree with you? You are a moron.

I use stealth, dodging, and shadowstep. I use stealth not as a crutch, but BECAUSE THERE’S AN ENTIRE TRAITLINE DEVOTED TO IT THAT GIVES BENEFITS FOR STEALTHING.

And your little point about how more weapon skills on other classes means that a thief’s core mechanic isn’t stealthing is just downright pathetic. Thieves have access to stealth on all but two weapon sets. We don’t need more skills to stealth, and thinking that other professions have more of a certain type of skill discounts a thief’s core mechanic being stealth is just downright idiotic.

I haven’t admitted anything. All you’ve done is make baseless assumptions on a player you don’t even know.

To add in to your last little remark, the “get good”, the only reason that this skill is being updated to reveal stealth is because other players couldn’t “get good”. They whined and complained until they got their way, while you go on to claim that I don’t want this because it makes stealth “uncounterable”, even though the most required to counter a thief using stealth is a basic thought process that many guild wars 2 players seem to lack.

Yourself included.

Thieves and stealthing has always been counterable. I’ve had plenty of times where I’ve died in stealth because other players knew what they were doing, or have even gotten lucky. It’s not hard, but people like you make it out to be by claiming that stealthing is “uncounterable”.

I think that the person who thinks their whole class will be useless if 1 skill with a 40 second cooldown from a Pet applies Revealed to them is the one who should get good. Thank you.

I never said useless, but feel free to make more baseless assumptions.

And whose to say that they won’t decrease the cooldown?
Whose to say they won’t add more, similar skills?

Not only are your points invalid and idiotic, but you also fail to look at the bigger picture.

edit

And no thieves get perma stealth. There’s always a point as to when they’re unstealthed, but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything.

But yes, sure, compare “not accomplishing anything” to being invincible, or brokenly overpowered. Yes. Sure.

“but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything”

I’m sure everyone is familiar with the scenario below:
The Thief attacks you. The Thief cant kill you. The Thief spams dagger/pistol combo to stealth and runs off. The Thief waits for all his skills to recharge. The Thief comes back and tries again, over and over. You on the other hand, cannot do anything about this stealth harasser, because he runs away invisible before you can finish him off. Wait, the Thief can see you and will make sure to run in a completely different direction that you are going to chase him.

So then after the Thief realizes he cannot kill you, he waits for someone to attack you, and then jumps in too. You kill the guy who attacked you, but the Thief realized his ally is dead, and stealths and runs away again, repeat over and over.

What did the Thief accomplish?
He did not get killed by using a broken mechanic.

What did the Thief not accomplish?
Killing You.

So compared with Guardians blocking all incoming attacks and not getting killed while dealing 0 damage themselves, and Necros fearing everyone who targets them, I see their level of survival they provide to be equal to that of Stealth, that is: OP and Broken.

And you’re telling me to get good.
Follow your own advice if you think that a situation like that in world versus world of all things is actual proof of stealth being overpowered.

What? Was the discussion about Stealth being OP anywhere else other than WvW?
Stealth is OP in WvW, Stealth is not OP in PvE, nor PvP because you cant cap while Stealthed.
You speak of counters to stealth in WvW?
Name them please?
Name on each profession please.
Show me them counters, I wanna see. Since I obviously cant see the thief so i wanna see the counter to the little thief in the scenario above.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Quotes aren’t working, so @turtledragon

So you’re just going to talk trash about the way I play, without knowing how I play, alright, sure, that’s fair, and then assume that you’re automatically correct and that I agree with you? You are a moron.

I use stealth, dodging, and shadowstep. I use stealth not as a crutch, but BECAUSE THERE’S AN ENTIRE TRAITLINE DEVOTED TO IT THAT GIVES BENEFITS FOR STEALTHING.

And your little point about how more weapon skills on other classes means that a thief’s core mechanic isn’t stealthing is just downright pathetic. Thieves have access to stealth on all but two weapon sets. We don’t need more skills to stealth, and thinking that other professions have more of a certain type of skill discounts a thief’s core mechanic being stealth is just downright idiotic.

I haven’t admitted anything. All you’ve done is make baseless assumptions on a player you don’t even know.

To add in to your last little remark, the “get good”, the only reason that this skill is being updated to reveal stealth is because other players couldn’t “get good”. They whined and complained until they got their way, while you go on to claim that I don’t want this because it makes stealth “uncounterable”, even though the most required to counter a thief using stealth is a basic thought process that many guild wars 2 players seem to lack.

Yourself included.

Thieves and stealthing has always been counterable. I’ve had plenty of times where I’ve died in stealth because other players knew what they were doing, or have even gotten lucky. It’s not hard, but people like you make it out to be by claiming that stealthing is “uncounterable”.

I think that the person who thinks their whole class will be useless if 1 skill with a 40 second cooldown from a Pet applies Revealed to them is the one who should get good. Thank you.

I never said useless, but feel free to make more baseless assumptions.

And whose to say that they won’t decrease the cooldown?
Whose to say they won’t add more, similar skills?

Not only are your points invalid and idiotic, but you also fail to look at the bigger picture.

edit

And no thieves get perma stealth. There’s always a point as to when they’re unstealthed, but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything.

But yes, sure, compare “not accomplishing anything” to being invincible, or brokenly overpowered. Yes. Sure.

“but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything”

I’m sure everyone is familiar with the scenario below:
The Thief attacks you. The Thief cant kill you. The Thief spams dagger/pistol combo to stealth and runs off. The Thief waits for all his skills to recharge. The Thief comes back and tries again, over and over. You on the other hand, cannot do anything about this stealth harasser, because he runs away invisible before you can finish him off. Wait, the Thief can see you and will make sure to run in a completely different direction that you are going to chase him.

So then after the Thief realizes he cannot kill you, he waits for someone to attack you, and then jumps in too. You kill the guy who attacked you, but the Thief realized his ally is dead, and stealths and runs away again, repeat over and over.

What did the Thief accomplish?
He did not get killed by using a broken mechanic.

What did the Thief not accomplish?
Killing You.

So compared with Guardians blocking all incoming attacks and not getting killed while dealing 0 damage themselves, and Necros fearing everyone who targets them, I see their level of survival they provide to be equal to that of Stealth, that is: OP and Broken.

And you’re telling me to get good.
Follow your own advice if you think that a situation like that in world versus world of all things is actual proof of stealth being overpowered.

What? Was the discussion about Stealth being OP anywhere else other than WvW?
Stealth is OP in WvW, Stealth is not OP in PvE, nor PvP because you cant cap while Stealthed.
You speak of counters to stealth in WvW?
Name them please?
Name on each profession please.
Show me them counters, I wanna see. Since I obviously cant see the thief so i wanna see the counter to the little thief in the scenario above.

Yeah, that’s kinda what the entire discussion has been about. Spvp and Wub.

The counter?

Getting good.