Guild Wars 2

Sarys.6520:

Josh Foreman.8250:

I certainly encourage anyone to express your desire for a Cantha region in GW2 in a positive and friendly way. It could be years away, but it’s worth asking for.

What about an nostalgic and musical way ?
This is my attempt : http://youtu.be/gTSBZstMZss

Very nice, and I would love to hear any future work you do on that.

I always liked the music that plays (usually) in the Imperial guild hall. I’m fairly certian it’s not on any of the soundtracks. I have the full soundtrack and the collector’s edition one, both with bonus tracks, and didn’t find it in anywhere.

Yeah, if there’s no Cantha, there’s a high chance I’ll stop playing. The game has already fulfilled my nostalgia of original GW:Prophecies since it takes place in the Tyrian continent. Out of the 2 standalone games that came after, Factions was my favorite. Factions offered some very interesting places, that unlike Elona, wasn’t mostly desert. I didn’t care for Elona all that much. Crystal Dessert from GW:Prophecies was great, but Korna/Desolation were extremely annoying. If we get an Elona but no Cantha, I will be extremely disappointed. I must know what happened to Kaineng and Fort Aspenwood in 250 years. Fort Aspenwood because I have a love/hate relationship with that place since I spent many hours working on Kurzick title there. Both the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest were amazing places, and I hope to see them at some point. I would love to see Jade Sea as water again (huge underwater zone maybe?) and I’d like to see what the Echovald Forest looks like un-petrified. Please do not forego doing Cantha content.

Also, can’t forget the bonus track 4 remix of original Factions theme that was on the Factions OST – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qz5k-y5LXs. This music was also used in one of the Factions trailers – so epic.

Nalora.7964:

The complete disappearance of Cantha makes absolutely no sense historically. Especially considering the “story bridge”: Winds of Change ended in Cantha with huge changes to the Guild Wars 1 world, including the possible melting of the Jade Sea.

Not to be disrespectful, but the Asian community needs to have the stick surgically removed from their hinter regions if they dislike a composite of the Asian world, then they should realize we are not on Earth here. The “white-anglo-saxon” world is also not “culturally sensitive” or even minimally “historically correct” if compared to the history of the planet Earth, but it is correct in the world of Tyria and beyond.

Cantha is either completely underwater if the Jade Sea did melt, or there are some islands of people left, and to be honest, the Luxons, who were masters of sailing solid water, would easily have adapted and survived to a Jade sea that had returned to liquid form.

I could easily see a Cantha Expansion as a water world.

I think I explained in the page before that I highly doubt it is the Asian community that has a problem. “Blade and Soul” is a Korean made MMO highly anticipated in Asia, but everything in it is a mix of Chinese and Korean cultures that include architecture, character classes, armor/fashion, NPCs, etc. There were no complaints, not to mention it was very well received. What do you make of this? A whole game based around the mix of said cultures, and Cantha, an Asian-inspired region in an already complete game.

Not releasing Cantha because of cultural sensitivities….

Should us of European descent be offended that Ascalon and Kryta are based on European culture?

No, of course not, because thats stupid.

Sarys.6520:

Josh Foreman.8250:

I certainly encourage anyone to express your desire for a Cantha region in GW2 in a positive and friendly way. It could be years away, but it’s worth asking for.

What about an nostalgic and musical way ?
This is my attempt : http://youtu.be/gTSBZstMZss

Wow, very beautiful….You’re very VERY talented.

I vote for Cantha to return. It was a well crafted continent (for the most part) and I loved the content that came with it. The story was good, the skills were good and the PvP maps were awesome. But if Cantha does return, please, please, pleeease give me some way to change my character to an Assassin .

First, it’s pretty weird an asian company make such an autoracism on asian ppl.
Second, Cantha is a very important part of Tyria, I’m sure most gw1 players loved it and we can’t wait to see the shing jea island, echovald forest and jade sea or the imperial palace rendered with the new gw2 engine, it would be just amazing.
Third, gw1 was general themed, there were ppl from all around the word, ascalonian (est europe), kryta (mediterranean), elona (african and arabic), cantha (asian).
If they want gw2 not being related to their other asian grindy games style they just need to NOT make gw2 a game like that, no need to remove a whole continent, our beloved cantha, like this.

The great collapse (originally the canthan district) is the meaning of what happened to cantha content in gw2, as Josh Foreman (a dev) said we should really shake the things up to have Cantha back.

Cantha of no dollars :P

Tyria (<3) must stay united.

Aedil.1296:

First, it’s pretty weird an asian company make such an autoracism on asian ppl.
Second, Cantha is a very important part of Tyria, I’m sure most gw1 players loved it and we can’t wait to see the shing jea island, echovald forest and jade sea or the imperial palace rendered with the new gw2 engine, it would be just amazing.
Third, gw1 was general themed, there were ppl from all around the word, ascalonian (est europe), kryta (mediterranean), elona (african and arabic), cantha (asian).
If they want gw2 not being related to their other asian grindy games style they just need to NOT make gw2 a game like that, no need to remove a whole continent, our beloved cantha, like this.

The great collapse (originally the canthan district) is the meaning of what happened to cantha content in gw2, as Josh Foreman (a dev) said we should really shake the things up to have Cantha back.

Cantha of no dollars :P

Tyria (<3) must stay united.

Nice map, where did you find it??

Shanna.4762:

Aedil.1296:

First, it’s pretty weird an asian company make such an autoracism on asian ppl.
Second, Cantha is a very important part of Tyria, I’m sure most gw1 players loved it and we can’t wait to see the shing jea island, echovald forest and jade sea or the imperial palace rendered with the new gw2 engine, it would be just amazing.
Third, gw1 was general themed, there were ppl from all around the word, ascalonian (est europe), kryta (mediterranean), elona (african and arabic), cantha (asian).
If they want gw2 not being related to their other asian grindy games style they just need to NOT make gw2 a game like that, no need to remove a whole continent, our beloved cantha, like this.

The great collapse (originally the canthan district) is the meaning of what happened to cantha content in gw2, as Josh Foreman (a dev) said we should really shake the things up to have Cantha back.

Cantha of no dollars :P

Tyria (<3) must stay united.

Nice map, where did you find it??

It’s a fan-made map. Can be found on the gw1 wiki.

There are a lot of new Korean MMOs out there that are releasing in a year’s time frame. Better start releasing Cantha to compete imo!

Mouhappai.5406:

Shenmue – A single player game produced by a Japanese company. The entire story was based in Hong Kong, but every character in the game speaks Japanese. No complains.
Hero Online – An age-old MMO. The story was based in ancient China, but the theme song with vocals are sung in Korean, no complains either.
Blade and Soul – A Korean MMO with a mix of mostly Korean and Chinese cultural elements including architecture, fashion and class abilties. Not a single complaint was made. In fact, both the Koreans and Chinese love it to death.

So who is stopping Cantha from making an appearance in GW2? I certainly do not think it is the playerbase.

I have a feeling that someone at NCSoft decided that Westerners just are not able to do an Asian theme with out it somehow being racist or disrespectful of the source. Or that we just can not even comprehend their culture and way of thinking, so any even a well meaning attempt by a Western developer to make an Asian themed game is folly.

Also, yes, there is a lot of friction between the various Asian cultures at the moment, so maybe that plays some role in it as well.

If NCSoft demanded that some of it’s people advise and contribute on any and all Asian themed content in GW2, I could understand if Arenanet just decided it wasn’t worth the effort. They have enough pressures with the ongoing development of the game with out having to worry about cultural politics.

Now, maybe it would behoove Arenanet to hire a writer with experience creating Asian themed lore for MMOs, someone with experience and talent on par with the head writers that laid the foundation for the lore in GW2, and have that person work out Canthan lore that would allow for it’s integration into the current game, while keeping NCSoft happy. If it works out, then you have an option to go forward. If it doesn’t work out, then nothing will really have changed.

As I see it, if Arenanet had to scrap Canthan themed content late in development due to some word from NCSoft, then of course it doesn’t make much sense for them to even consider a Canthan based expansion for GW2 unless they could be absolutely certain that work wouldn’t be hampered by corporate involvement.

As a player, I’m not at all happy to hear this news. I definitely hoped and expected that Cantha would be a clear part of their five year plan, even if it ended up being towards the far end of that time frame. To find out that it’s not part of their five year plan and may never appear at all is disappointing.

Wo….. i didn’t even know they wouldn’t include the “old GW1 continents” into GW2..this is the first time i hear about this.

….Is NCsoft really going to go against their customers desires on this? Cantha was just beautiful to play in, in GW1. I really hope they do add the old continents in some playable shape or form. U did 80% of the game the correct way till now, if u fail to add massive content that is both awesome and nostalgic like those 2 huge parts, i will be extremely disappointed.

Why would they even consider cutting out something that would attract both new players and old players to buy expansions? I don’t get this, i really hope there will be a REAL debate with the community on this when the time comes and it’s easily assurable that the community will hands down want that type of content.

I know this sounds stupid, but this is a REAL issue for the future of GW2 both economically and fanbase. I don’t want debates about this between NCSoft and the Dev team from anet..that equals a big 0…this debate should be with the customers and what they want/expect from the future of this game if they really want to keep their customers. Sry anet..but it’s just true…your decision in this doesn’t really matter at all…the only decision that matters when it comes to my money, is “mine and mine alone”.

Rebound.3409:

….Is NCsoft really going to go against their customers desires on this?

The only thing we’ve heard about customers being against this was the beta feedback from the Asian markets about the Divinity’s Reach Canthan District mixing Chinese and Korean architecture. I don’t have sales and player statistics to look at, but how much of GW2’s playerbase is actually in either of these countries? GW2 is a western MMO made by an American company (that just happens to be owned by a Korean company), and it’s very different from any Asian MMO I’ve seen.

A lot of (all that I know of) succesful eastern MMOs have been very grindy games. Games that make GW2, or any other western MMO, look like a single player RPG you just speed through. There is nothing wrong with that, but it’s just not the type of game that does well in the western market. Likewise, eastern MMOs focus on aspects like stories and lore, rather than grind (even if some grind is still present), and don’t do very well in Asian markets. I don’t think there is a mid-ground that will satisfy both markets, so NC needs to pick one before they drive us both away.

I don’t want to see GW2 turn into an overly “culturally sensitive” game that is too generic to stand out, too grindy for western markets, and not grindy enough for Asian markets. You can’t please everyone, and trying to do it just ends up pleasing no one.

mrstealth.6701:

You can’t please everyone, and trying to do it just ends up pleasing no one.

Amen.
This is the problem of most studios nowadays, and what causes the fall of great franchises.

@mrstealth: It’s already grindy considering the only 4 attractions this game has endgame are FoTM, WvW, for real sadomasochists Orr and AC to grind money. This game offers nothing atm other then the above listed (2 small and easy dungeons, 1 boring map and an excuse of a RvR system which fails in a lot of parts to make ppl actually put effort and dedication in what they do).

Yes i understand all to well what u say above..but that doesn’t mean we have to cut diversity all together. I am talking about Asiatic-themed continents not the mechanics behind them. I just want to explore/enjoy different themes in 1 game, also available for story. If you can’t offer someone diversity in an MMO, that mmo will die eventually..take it however u want.

What’s the difference if they add Cantha to the game? A few maps with different textures to match asiatic culture and a story that has meaning and ties to GW1. I don’t see the “overly grinding part”..atleast not as much as it is now.

The game mechanics/system are already there and already limits “by their nature” the tipical “chinese-grinding” mmos. Even if they do or don’t add new things, the grinding system remains the same…BUT it’s worst not to add then to add if u want to keep buyers happy and paying.

“You can’t please everyone, and trying to do it just ends up pleasing no one.”
That would be valid if GW1 didn’t exist GW1 proved this wrong. It combined not 2, but 3 completely different cultures into 1 game. I don’t know of anyone ever saying something bad about that…and they all had the same level of grinding in them. If u went to Cantha that didn’t mean u needed to grind 10x more because it was asiatic themed… that’s just silly.

Rebound.3409:

@mrstealth: It’s already grindy considering the only 4 attractions this game has endgame are FoTM, WvW, for real sadomasochists Orr and AC to grind money. This game offers nothing atm other then the above listed (2 small and easy dungeons, 1 boring map and an excuse of a RvR system which fails in a lot of parts to make ppl actually put effort and dedication in what they do).

Yes i understand all to well what u say above..but that doesn’t mean we have to cut diversity all together. I am talking about Asiatic-themed continents not the mechanics behind them. I just want to explore/enjoy different themes in 1 game, also available for story. If you can’t offer someone diversity in an MMO, that mmo will die eventually..take it however u want.

What’s the difference if they add Cantha to the game? A few maps with different textures to match asiatic culture and a story that has meaning and ties to GW1. I don’t see the “overly grinding part”..atleast not as much as it is now.

The game mechanics/system are already there and already limits “by their nature” the tipical “chinese-grinding” mmos. Even if they do or don’t add new things, the grinding system remains the same…BUT it’s worst not to add then to add if u want to keep buyers happy and paying.

“You can’t please everyone, and trying to do it just ends up pleasing no one.”
That would be valid if GW1 didn’t exist GW1 proved this wrong. It combined not 2, but 3 completely different cultures into 1 game. I don’t know of anyone ever saying something bad about that…and they all had the same level of grinding in them. If u went to Cantha that didn’t mean u needed to grind 10x more because it was asiatic themed… that’s just silly.

If anything Anet actually learned well and progressed a lot with each release. Prophecies had a long drawn out leveling curve, which was great and it worked.
With Factions they laid it out differently and you hit max level much much much quicker, and Nightfall added Heroes to the mix. So each campaign sort of lessened ‘grind’, although I really hate that word especially in relation to GW1 because the only things that were a grind were titles and they were completely optional.

We need Cantha Anet. It is such a beautiful continent with an amazingly rich history and a lot of important ties to Tyria. So <3 please bring it back at some point!

Rebound.3409:

@mrstealth: It’s already grindy considering the only 4 attractions this game has endgame are FoTM, WvW, for real sadomasochists Orr and AC to grind money. This game offers nothing atm other then the above listed (2 small and easy dungeons, 1 boring map and an excuse of a RvR system which fails in a lot of parts to make ppl actually put effort and dedication in what they do).

Yes i understand all to well what u say above..but that doesn’t mean we have to cut diversity all together. I am talking about Asiatic-themed continents not the mechanics behind them. I just want to explore/enjoy different themes in 1 game, also available for story. If you can’t offer someone diversity in an MMO, that mmo will die eventually..take it however u want.

What’s the difference if they add Cantha to the game? A few maps with different textures to match asiatic culture and a story that has meaning and ties to GW1. I don’t see the “overly grinding part”..atleast not as much as it is now.

The game mechanics/system are already there and already limits “by their nature” the tipical “chinese-grinding” mmos. Even if they do or don’t add new things, the grinding system remains the same…BUT it’s worst not to add then to add if u want to keep buyers happy and paying.

“You can’t please everyone, and trying to do it just ends up pleasing no one.”
That would be valid if GW1 didn’t exist GW1 proved this wrong. It combined not 2, but 3 completely different cultures into 1 game. I don’t know of anyone ever saying something bad about that…and they all had the same level of grinding in them. If u went to Cantha that didn’t mean u needed to grind 10x more because it was asiatic themed… that’s just silly.

I think you missed the point I was making. I was not meaning that game mechanics would (or should) change, the point was that GW2 is already focused on the western market, so making visual changes to appease the Asian market doesn’t really make sense. The reason I brought up gameplay at all was to point out that GW2 is not the type of MMO that has typically sold well in Asian markets. If NC wanted better sales in the eastern markets, they would have to make huge changes to gameplay. But this is not something likely to happen, so why go to such lengths because some people from this market didn’t like the architectural style?

I understand NC wanting to make the game more globally appealing, but the west and east MMO markets are just too different to make a single game that fits well into both. And leaving out Cantha is a decision that attempts to appease a minority of the game’s market, at the cost of displeasing the majority.

As for GW1, yes it did mix visual styles from eastern and western influences, but it did not have the gameplay influences of eastern games.

I think Cantha should be added to GW2, with the same visual styles originally intended. It shouldn’t be a huge concern that some players outside of the focused market aren’t happy with it.

vespers.1759:

that might make sense if every in-game holdiay wasn’t based around the christian holidays (christmas, halloween and soon valentine’s day)

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition…

TBH, Tyria always used to seem a bit Greek to me… Now it’s more like a bad Shakespeare play with reallity TV undertones… With Pirates.. Modern Christianity at it’s finest? (bad joke? too soon?).

“As for GW1, yes it did mix visual styles from eastern and western influences, but it did not have the gameplay influences of eastern games.”

Whoever said anything about gameplay changes? This talk is purely about esthetics and story that was already made in GW1 and just needs to fit the current lore of GW2….so again ANet did it right in GW1..why would they have to cut it out in GW2?

What u said above is exactly what we want and are supposedly DENIED by ncsoft for a reason i have yet to read a correct explenation.

You keep introducing a feature (gameplay influences or possibly mechanics) that GW1 never had and nobody wants everyone agrees with you. The talk is about aesthetics/lore.

All we want is for ANet to make in GW2 what they did in GW1. That means on a basic scale updated graphics of the other continents to transition from GW1 to GW2 and a lore that ties to GW1…period. As for the rest..the same mechanics used in GW2 and so on, which we already know.

Rebound.3409:

“As for GW1, yes it did mix visual styles from eastern and western influences, but it did not have the gameplay influences of eastern games.”

Whoever said anything about gameplay changes? This talk is purely about esthetics and story that was already made in GW1 and just needs to fit the current lore of GW2….so again ANet did it right in GW1..why would they have to cut it out in GW2?

You keep introducing a feature (gameplay influences or possibly mechanics) that GW1 never had and nobody wants everyone agrees with you. The talk is about aesthetics/lore.

All we want is for ANet to make in GW2 what they did in GW1. That means on a basic scale updated graphics of the other continents to transition from GW1 to GW2 and a lore that ties to GW1…period. As for the rest..the same mechanics used in GW2 and so on, which we already know.

Again, the reason I mentioned gameplay/mechanics was only to point out that GW2 (and GW1) is not primarily marketed to eastern/Asian players. The removal of the Canthan district of Divinity’s Reach was a move to appease the eastern/Asian players. It really does not make sense to make a massive change to appeal to a market that your game already isn’t focused on.

If, key word here is if, NC wanted to make a serious attempt to draw in the eastern market, the gameplay/mechanics I mentioned would have to be a part of that. Then it would make sense to also alter visual styles to appease that market.

GW1 did just fine adding in Asian visual themes into a game with western gameplay/mechanics. That trend should continue with GW2.

“GW1 did just fine adding in Asian visual themes into a game with western gameplay/mechanics. That trend should continue with GW2.”

Finally ^

If NCsoft really wants to make money, they would let ANet do what it did in the past and have success with it which translates into $$. If they keep adding new dull maps to the same style of play, i won’t even consider buying more then 1 expansion.

But if they add completely new themes that actually makes u feel like u go from 1 world to a completely changed one..makes you want to explore those new lands like it’s a whole new game, that would actually impress me enough to pay money.

It’s up to them…u either make money from westerners or not..the options are down to those really. We are leaving in a world without borders because of internet. I go on the internet and play games with ppl from allover the world..that’s what attracts me to MMO in the first place.

If u put borders inside a world where ppl go specially because there are no borders, then you failed in a biblical way and deserve your title to die as fast as possible.

I consider not having the capability of seeing/feeling other cultural aspects in a game besides the standard we already know/are used to, to be a big border.

Just look at WoW….the only patch that wasn’t criticized as much as ..well basically all of them where, was that panda thing whatever. Why? they added a totally new feeling and culture to the game. It wasn’t because of the pandas..they added new classes in the past also and got flamed to the bone anyway. There are other examples similar to this also. Call it a “westerner trend”. You either are with the trend and actually have success, or you don’t.

Rebound.3409:

“GW1 did just fine adding in Asian visual themes into a game with western gameplay/mechanics. That trend should continue with GW2.”

Finally ^

That’s the point I was making all along. GW1 did great without the gameplay that typically appeals to the eastern market. I think the Asian playerbase mostly died out after release. I know there were some events/promos/competitions in that market early on, but don’t recall anything like that beyond the first year or so. I think the game just did not continue doing well in that market for the same reasons that most Asian MMOs don’t do well in the US. Asian devs could try making games with a more western visual style, but it wouldn’t do them any good because the gameplay still wouldn’t appeal to us. I’m sure some of their home/Asian market might like the change in scenery, though. Just like us westerners enjoyed the visuals of Cantha. And if a westerner does get upset over a Greek-looking monument being placed in a zone resembling the American deserts, they should let it be and not worry about appeasing people outside the target market.

The only change I’m aware of due to cultural reasons was the removal of a panda NPC that was in the pre-release preview weekend of Factions. It was removed due to a law in China regarding any depiction of a dead animal on the endangered species list. This obviously became less of an issue later on, as about a year ago (Feb 9 2012) the panda was made available as a ranger pet in GW1.

I absolutely loved Cantha… When I got my Prophecies Monk their and set foot into Kaineg City… I was totally in love… so much nostalgia and good memories of that place…

I miss it enough that I might go re-install GW1 and just explore Cantha for a bit

Please bring it back

mrstealth.6701:

NC needs to pick one before they drive us both away.

Seems to me – with the destruction of that tiny echo of Cantha in Divinity’s Reach – that they’ve already made their choice.

U mean the big black scary hole in DR? Don’t worry..nothing a good “patch” can’t fix.

Speaking of The Great Collapse of the promontory …

when it pierces is compler you? / butcher / fill?

A Ebonhawke, workers talk to recap, with their stones from the quarry.

Is that one day you will rebuild the neighborhood?

I loved Cantha, such a beautiful place, especially the Shing Jea Island and then going into the concrete jungle known as Kaineng City and escaping through the sewers to the Echovald Forest/Jade Sea. And fighting Shiro, good times.

Well, it was a beautiful continent. I would imagine a majority of Cantha is gone. Ecovald Forest would be underwater as well as a major part of Kaineng, sewer systems and underground tunnels completely submerged, only leaving the top of the city to survive. Which would leave Shing Jea Island, I’d imagine most of the island is still there but much of the smaller villages going higher into the mountains.

And I’m sure in time, they will rebuild in DR with time as they figure out how to build properly lol.

Maybe a Shiro return? Anybody? Tyrian invasion?

Factions was my favorite GW1 expansion. So it’s no wonder that it too, like the personal home instance, guild hall, no horizontal progression and other things I liked about Guild Wars 1, got put in the ‘maybe if we ever feel like it but don’t get your hopes up’ pile.

For what it’s worth, I constantly get the feeling that there are some higher up suits that don’t know much about gaming, but much more about supposed political correctness. They’ve turned Guild Wars 2 into a WoW clone (because that game makes a lot of money!) and shun away from anything that’s even remotely different, even if that’s the reason Guild Wars 1 became such a huge succes in the first place.

Newsflash to the suits: WoW also made an Asian expansion. Now, if I were Asian, I’d be more offended by a bamboo-stick-wielding beer-gut panda than the stuff ArenaNet made.

I don’t think gameplay changes would need to be made in order to appease the Asian market, but not having a lot of Asian culture in the game will probably hurt the games performance over there. Also, it’s been many years since GW1 and the Asian market has slowly begun to move away from the grindy games. I think the opportunity is better than ever to try and make an impact there where as GW1 came at a time where the market was stuck in a loop in both regions. Everything else was the same, and GW1 arguably wasn’t an MMO.

A couple of you are right when you say that you can’t please everyone and by trying pleases no one.

It sounds apparent to me with what Josh Foreman said about how NCsoft has approached ArenaNet with a more hands off approach, so I don’t think anything is set in stone and this “decision” could of been made many years ago when GW2 was just a basic concept. The best thing we can do is continue discussing Cantha and asking for it, eventually it’s bound to get their attention and possibly their consideration if they aren’t already planning on going forward with it anyway.

In case you all haven’t seen these yet, I thought you might like a look at what we so narrowly missed out on having in Divinity’s Reach. Some screenshots have survived around the ’net.

You can see them here and here. (Sorry to have to simply link them, the forums don’t like me today and I’m having some trouble adding the images to my post. :P )

That was the completely finished Canthan district that was removed at the last minute. If you visit the Great Collapse area now, you can see exactly how it matches up with the pictures. The surrounding walls are the same, just a big hole instead of all these lovely Canthan buildings.

So sad, and what a waste of the artists’ wonderful efforts.

Edit: typos!

So now i know that it was NCsoft who ruined GW2.

Lady Vireo.5189:

/snip

So sad, and what a waste of the artists’ wonderful efforts.

Wow. Wow. Thanks for finding those. I’ve browsed the thread and suddenly felt that revisiting Cantha was the thing I hoped for the most… Pre-release PVP Factions event was when I tried the game for the first time. The first Dragon Festival was around my birthday, I loved that expansion.

Yeah, I won’t bring much to the discussion, as I indeed feel a little homesick and sad now.

People really need to read some Edward Said’s work on Orientalism (and I mean an actual book/essay, not a Wikipedia Article) and realize that representing the East, especially from a Western point of view, is not easy and can be very problematic. Cantha is very much included in this, despite however much you guys want to think it is flawless.

Ratphink.4751:

People really need to read some Edward Said’s work on Orientalism (and I mean an actual book/essay, not a Wikipedia Article) and realize that representing the East, especially from a Western point of view, is not easy and can be very problematic. Cantha is very much included in this, despite however much you guys want to think it is flawless.

I think that is making it far more complicated and serious than it really needs to be. In the end of Anet needs to employ specialists from Asia in order to realize Cantha then fine, but it’s still a game, and a fantasy series..Nobody is depicting real life China, Japan, or Korea. And on that note I don’t think anyone has said it’s flawless…Many have made suggestions towards improving Cantha all around from general to more complex situations. The bottom line is many people love Cantha, many people loved Cantha in GW1 and want to see it even more in GW2. It was a beautiful set of work in GW1, and is a culture that is very deeply rooted in the GW franchise..There are a lot of reasons why it needs to be in this game.

Right. So what if a lot of people loved Cantha? I can just as easily say ‘A lot of people hated Cantha’. Anecdotal ‘bunch of people <insert this> really means nothing. And clealry NCSoft seem to have an issue with it, and a bunch of shrewd businessmen aren’t going to be making decisions all willy nilly with no reason. For every person who likes it they also have to compare it with negative cultural impacts. Yes, negative cultural impacts. You know, because things you interact with on a daily basis actually do have effects on how you perceive your surroundings. Particularly surroundings you are not likely to encounter personally save through media.

Further, they may also be as tired as I am of the tropes that (Yes, even Cantha) often rely on in order to maintain Western interest.

Marge, glad you enjoyed them! I feel the same way! I got Factions as a birthday gift, and it was my first GW game, at a very formative time in my life, too. I still play GW1, otherwise I would miss it too much!

Ratphink.4751:

People really need to read some Edward Said’s work on Orientalism (and I mean an actual book/essay, not a Wikipedia Article) and realize that representing the East, especially from a Western point of view, is not easy and can be very problematic. Cantha is very much included in this, despite however much you guys want to think it is flawless.

I’m very familiar with Said and his theories of Orientalism. I have read a bit of his own work and definitely a lot of the literature to which his critique applies. (I’m a lit major and soon-to-be grad student. ;P) I agree it’s very important to bring this into the discussion.

Personally I’m not saying Cantha is perfect, I’m saying it means a lot to me. That doesn’t mean I don’t look at it intelligently.

I think leaving it out of the game is not the answer to avoiding Orientalism. Including it and giving it a complex and sensitive portrayal would be better, although naturally much more challenging.

It’s also important to consider how many Asian devs or devs with Asian heritage worked on Factions and are currently part of the Anet team. This is not a cut-and-dried case of westerners creating their fantasy of Asia.

I would hope and expect Anet to be sensitive to the problem when recreating a Canthan expansion. But in light of GW2’s emphasis on tolerance, I would expect this to be a wonderful opportunity to overcome the issue, rather than a danger of falling face-first into it. I am confident Anet would have the same sensitivity as they have in the current game’s portrayal of interracial conflicts, same-sex relationships, and gender equality. No, it’s not easy, but they have done an admirable job so far of overcoming stereotypical and problematic images in fantasy. Any game where we have Kalla Scorchrazor, Caithe and Faolain, and so many other examples seamlessly worked into the world without it being a political sledgehammer is remarkable and gives me respect for the Anet team.

TL;DR: I regard whitewashing Guild Wars and leaving out Asian elements to be just as wrong as including Asian elements in a way that construes them as “other” and falls into the problematic view Said calls Orientalism. I believe Anet has shown they can do a good job portraying Cantha, if given the chance.

Here’s my take, If they really wanted no Cantha why did we even have Asian faces or the ability to generate such faces and skin tones?

What is the logic involved there?

So, pretty much if you don’t like Cantha or have never been you are effectively declining yourself the chance to beat the best villain in the GW universe.

Nuff said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBAxPYq0WYw

If ANet knows whats good for them…. Shiro will rise again…..

Lady Vireo.5189:

Ratphink.4751:

People really need to read some Edward Said’s work on Orientalism (and I mean an actual book/essay, not a Wikipedia Article) and realize that representing the East, especially from a Western point of view, is not easy and can be very problematic. Cantha is very much included in this, despite however much you guys want to think it is flawless.

I’m very familiar with Said and his theories of Orientalism. I have read a bit of his own work and definitely a lot of the literature to which his critique applies. (I’m a lit major and soon-to-be grad student. ;P) I agree it’s very important to bring this into the discussion.

So basically, you’re saying we cannot add it to the game because we don’t have a proper understanding of the Asian culture?

Did you ever check how Asians portray us? Even if you leave out the North Korean view of the western people, you can hardly state that they portray us in a proper, politically correct way.

And the same goes for the western cultures portrayed in Guild Wars 2. You can hardly state that it’s done properly.

And who cares? it’s NOT REAL.

ThiBash.5634:

Lady Vireo.5189:

Ratphink.4751:

People really need to read some Edward Said’s work on Orientalism (and I mean an actual book/essay, not a Wikipedia Article) and realize that representing the East, especially from a Western point of view, is not easy and can be very problematic. Cantha is very much included in this, despite however much you guys want to think it is flawless.

I’m very familiar with Said and his theories of Orientalism. I have read a bit of his own work and definitely a lot of the literature to which his critique applies. (I’m a lit major and soon-to-be grad student. ;P) I agree it’s very important to bring this into the discussion.

So basically, you’re saying we cannot add it to the game because we don’t have a proper understanding of the Asian culture?

Did you ever check how Asians portray us? Even if you leave out the North Korean view of the western people, you can hardly state that they portray us in a proper, politically correct way.

And the same goes for the western cultures portrayed in Guild Wars 2. You can hardly state that it’s done properly.

And who cares? it’s NOT REAL.

Pretty much this…It goes both ways and when you try to insert the intellectual argument into the equation without even bothering to look at how it’s handled on the other side …..Yeah I don’t even need to continue with that as the point has been made.

I believe that Anet will approach Cantha intelligently, they won’t just toss out a bunch of “oriental stereotypes” at us as they didn’t really do that much in the 1st game, and I see no reason to believe they would do that in this one, either. At the end of the day, like I said before it is a game, it is not real life, nobody is making a statement on anybodies real life culture, politics or structure. I’m sure there are people who hate Cantha, I have seen people say they don’t like it but speaking from -MY OWN- experience I have seen far more people say they want Cantha then I have seen people that say they don’t. It’s a conversation that comes up relatively frequently in the game when people start talking about potential expansions or new regions in updates that they would like to see and it usually is Cantha and Elona that get a huge majority of people in the conversation going. Sure, it’s not a total and complete census of the entire player-base but I bet if there were to be one and most players contributed to that poll it would support what I have seen.

So my understanding of the situation is that they don’t want to be non-inclusive so they are keeping Cantha Away?

Last time I checked in the world today, there are people of all different races from all walks of life in this world. The world of Guild Wars 1 reflected that. ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE.

If there is no Cantha nor Elona in Guild Wars 2 because of NCsoft, they are saying that in this world there should not be all kinds of people from all walks of life. Thats some foolishness right there. ArenaNet Knows how to be tastefully inclusive. I want to return to the shores of Cantha. Need to see what happened after the sea melted and the forest woke up. And Canthan New Year

And if we are talking about inclusion. When was the last time any video game in the world that include holiday events or anything has anything for Channukah or Pesach or Sukkot or anything. I’m used to it in the real world so I know there isn’t anything to hope for in a video game. But my point is you either have to let everything happen or nothing happen.

ThiBash.5634:

Lady Vireo.5189:

Ratphink.4751:

People really need to read some Edward Said’s work on Orientalism (and I mean an actual book/essay, not a Wikipedia Article) and realize that representing the East, especially from a Western point of view, is not easy and can be very problematic. Cantha is very much included in this, despite however much you guys want to think it is flawless.

I’m very familiar with Said and his theories of Orientalism. I have read a bit of his own work and definitely a lot of the literature to which his critique applies. (I’m a lit major and soon-to-be grad student. ;P) I agree it’s very important to bring this into the discussion.

So basically, you’re saying we cannot add it to the game because we don’t have a proper understanding of the Asian culture?

Did you ever check how Asians portray us? Even if you leave out the North Korean view of the western people, you can hardly state that they portray us in a proper, politically correct way.

And the same goes for the western cultures portrayed in Guild Wars 2. You can hardly state that it’s done properly.

And who cares? it’s NOT REAL.

I don’t think Orientalism can really be applied to a fantasy game. It’s not a representation of Asia, it’s an artificial world with stylistic and mythological influences from these Asian cultures. The fact that Guild Wars is set in the made up world of Tyria instead being set on Earth changes a lot. If this were a Call of Duty game, where it there is a real-world setting, then such representations become as issue, as they can be compared directly to their real-world counterparts.

ThiBash.5634:

So basically, you’re saying we cannot add it to the game because we don’t have a proper understanding of the Asian culture?

Hi, ThiBash, I’m not sure if you’re addressing Ratphink or me since you’re quoting us both. But if you were writing this to me, I want to point out that if you read the rest of my post, I actually argue the exact opposite of what you just said. I want Cantha back and believe Anet will do a great job. I think leaving Cantha out is just as bad as putting it in and portraying it in a way that is stereotypical or insensitive. I also don’t think the original Factions game was an example of Orientalism. I thought Elona and Cantha added depth and multiculturalism, not stereotypes, to the original Guild Wars.

I do think it’s worthwhile to discuss the problem of Orientalism in context of fantasy games, just like it’s worthwhile to talk about sexism, racism, prejudice against the GLBT community or any other real-life issue. Computer games do reflect real-life attitudes and they do influence people’s opinions about real life. If a game is sexist, I don’t give it a free pass just because it’s not about real women in a real culture. If a game were to endorse one race oppressing another, I’d call it racism, it doesn’t matter if the people are fantasy races instead of real human ethnic groups.

I love that Anet has made a game that is complex and sensitive and leads to meaningful conversations about these things.

KeybladeMaster.3148:

So my understanding of the situation is that they don’t want to be non-inclusive so they are keeping Cantha Away?

Last time I checked in the world today, there are people of all different races from all walks of life in this world. The world of Guild Wars 1 reflected that. ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE.

If there is no Cantha nor Elona in Guild Wars 2 because of NCsoft, they are saying that in this world there should not be all kinds of people from all walks of life. Thats some foolishness right there. ArenaNet Knows how to be tastefully inclusive. I want to return to the shores of Cantha. Need to see what happened after the sea melted and the forest woke up. And Canthan New Year

And if we are talking about inclusion. When was the last time any video game in the world that include holiday events or anything has anything for Channukah or Pesach or Sukkot or anything. I’m used to it in the real world so I know there isn’t anything to hope for in a video game. But my point is you either have to let everything happen or nothing happen.

well if i read up on the wiki right , palawa joko from GW1 eventually conquered elona? i could be wrong of course and this can all be subject to change. but if he conquered it (and hes sorta undead-ish?) i doubt many elonans were left after his army went out and took down the sunspears , and whatevers left of the kornan troops (probably converted to sunspears i think) , hard to say how that was handled as well. Cantha is not out of the question though , theyre supposedly still in one piece , just sorta kicked out any non humans i believe.

Enundr.9305:

well if i read up on the wiki right , palawa joko from GW1 eventually conquered elona? i could be wrong of course and this can all be subject to change. but if he conquered it (and hes sorta undead-ish?) i doubt many elonans were left after his army went out and took down the sunspears , and whatevers left of the kornan troops (probably converted to sunspears i think) , hard to say how that was handled as well. Cantha is not out of the question though , theyre supposedly still in one piece , just sorta kicked out any non humans i believe.

You read wrong. Joko didn’t slaughter everyone. Why would he? He blocked off the river Elon and forced Vabbian surrender because it was much more effective than just stroming in all guns blazing. He took out the Ossan line and the Sunspears who opposed him, but those who bent the knee, he treated well and even made them part of his elite guard.

At present, he’s attempting to hold Kralkattorik in the Crystal Desert, which once more sets him up as a potential ally.

I’d really love to see Arenanet take that route, because let’s face it, who here isn’t sick of fighting undead? And Joko’s kinda awesome.

Conversely, Kisu’s successor did wreck through Cantha all guns blazing. He tore throught he Luxons and Kurzicks, seized their lands and forced all sentient non-humans out of the mainland, and eventually out of the whole country. How charr, norn, asura and sylvari would get through that barrier remains to be seen.

Dr Ritter.1327:

jade maw fractal is in cantha…

Uhm, if I understand correctly the ‘Jade Maw fractal’ is in the Mists, and is merely an echo of past events.

Please consider this post further support for the release of a Canthan campaign. I adored every part of it. I hope whatever barriers might be in the way they can be overcome.

I hope there Cantha expansion at some point, if not it will be another proof that GW2 is iggorings his roots.

GW is Tyria, and Tyria is Tyria, Elona and Cantha, why make beyond missions or create the movement of the world if you just ripp of 1/3 part of their world.

Cantha was a great map, Kaineng was a little boring but i think that the engine was the culptirit to make some great city map, but Kurzick Forest and Jade Sea in Luxon was great, throw Cantha to garbage because some Asian angry will be the worst decision to GW saga, then dont launch more Tyria maps because Europe/American players would be angry.

And of course the same would be with Elona, we need say “Hello” to Palawa again, i need revenge for kill my Paragons >< and the Sunspears.

I always expect that the natural progresion is when we kill the dragons who block the way to Cantha and Elona ( Mr.Bubbles, Zaithan and Kralkatorric) the path to Cantah and Elona will be open to make alternative storys and rest a little of dragons theme.

Josh Foreman.8250:

This went down long before anyone even know MOP was coming.

Well, Blizzard’s roadmap showing Pandaria was leaked in late 2007, IIRC, and with all the ex-Blizzard people working at Arena Net I doubt you didn’t know about it even sooner.

Not saying one thing influenced the other, but I’m pretty sure it “went down” after at least some people knew that MoP was coming.

Also, I really don’t understand the reasoning behind cancelling it. If anything, having multiple cultures would make it more “universal” (in a way, that’s what the different playable “races” – technically species – are there for). I do think that making in-game cultures too similar to Earth cultures is a bit limiting (as opposed to creating completely original cultures), but in a way it makes new players feel more familiar with them, and makes the artists / art director’s job easier.

Anyway, this kind of contradicts what Mike O’Brien said numerous times (that NCsoft had given Arena Net full creative freedom and hadn’t interfered on the game design). Makes you wonder what else in the game’s development (both pre- and post-release) was also decided by the marketing department…

Lady Vireo.5189:

I do think it’s worthwhile to discuss the problem of Orientalism in context of fantasy games, just like it’s worthwhile to talk about sexism, racism, prejudice against the GLBT community or any other real-life issue. Computer games do reflect real-life attitudes and they do influence people’s opinions about real life. If a game is sexist, I don’t give it a free pass just because it’s not about real women in a real culture. If a game were to endorse one race oppressing another, I’d call it racism, it doesn’t matter if the people are fantasy races instead of real human ethnic groups.

I think someone who’s real life opinions of a race/culture/etc are effected by a fantasy video game about completely fictional locations and cultures probably shouldn’t be playing fantasy video games. I understand that Cantha was designed with Asian influences, but I know there is not any real eastern country with an army of pirates riding around on giant turtles with canons strapped to their backs. The influences in Cantha aren’t even modern day influences, so it’s hard to label them as falsely representing current Asian cultures.

I think sexism (and prejudice against GLBT) are more of “black and white” issues. They are more readily comparable to real-world issues, because male/female is a line that crosses all cultures and all times. I understand why people might be more likely to find sexism in a game (or other entertainment media) offensive, but unless the game is falsely portraying a specific race/culture/person, I still don’t see any issue.

Looking at both Guild Wars games, there are already examples of oppression/racism, and I’ve not heard of anyone being offended by them. In GW2 the centaur and krait both oppress members of just about any other race to use them as slaves. Given the chance, either of these would oppress the entire population. In GW1 the tengu were opressed by the empire and forced to live in a small camp in Kaineng City, and tengu everywhere had to deal with prejudice. Humans are certainly involved in both instances here, being on both sides of the issue. The key difference is that centaur, krait, and tengu are non-human fantasy races/species. Is that really any different than Krytans, Canthans, Elonians being fantasy races?

It all comes down to personal perception. For me, I understand that it’s a game and that none of it is real or representative of anything that is real. While I would not be offended myself, I think it’s reasonable for people to be offend by a game that portrayed a real-life military/policitcal conflict. This has been a real issue with at least one recent military shooter game’s portrayal of conflicts between the US and forces from foreign nations/terrorist groups. The people offended by this have the right to voice their opinions, but they don’t have the right to demand the game be changed or removed from stores.

Account.9832:

Josh Foreman.8250:

This went down long before anyone even know MOP was coming.

Anyway, this kind of contradicts what Mike O’Brien said numerous times (that NCsoft had given Arena Net full creative freedom and hadn’t interfered on the game design). Makes you wonder what else in the game’s development (both pre- and post-release) was also decided by the marketing department…

Agree, they have guts to go against the community with Ascend items, but it seem that they lack of it againts NCsoft to put Cantha in game.

The months pass and each day im more sure that this is less a GW by Arena.net game and more a NCsoft game, they are getting rid of many things that made GW1 great ( Lot PVP modes, No vertical progression, listen the community ).

And now if they just simple throw to the garbage something so basic and simple like 1/3 of the original GW map and history like Cantha only why Ncsoft dont like the “Fantasy asian theme” in GW2 it will show how little rights Arena.net have in his own game and a “faceslap” to all their GW fans ( another one …..).

Im not begging for a Mike O´brian answer, but it would be good that at least Colin or other “big fish designer” will answer about this, and if they are planning forget all about Cantha in GW2 and why, telling us now , not have us waiting months speculating for for an answer, and im almost sure that they already read this thread.