(edited by Enokitake.1742)
To ppl that asked for vertical progression...
And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.
Where do players like you come from?
I’m serious, I really want to know.
Mostly they’re people who yearn for some sort of gratification in their lives. These are the people who impact the industry the most. The less you think about it the less depressing the realization that the mmo market is nothing more than Angry Birds or Candy Crush. A market that once was heralded as something of wonder and adventure, now just a series of spreadsheets on how to best profit off those that have no self control.
Ascended gear ruined my game experience for GW2 and I decided to quit. I just got sick of the feeling of to do things that gave me the mats i needed to get the gear, that’s all i did with most of my game time and I stopped having fun. This is after making about 7-9 ascended weapons for my toons, once the armor came out though i said forget it. I haven’t had many other games to play so I logged in today to check the game out again but after about 10 mins I just didn’t feel like playing. GG on ruining the game grinding gamers; oh well c’est la vie.
Sorry, but you’re the one who changed the yard stick.
You’re saying it’s ONLY VP when it’s gear, and NOT VP when it isn’t. Even if both amount to the exact same thing.
If I need X skill in order to complete content or if X skill makes it easier to complete content and if not everyone has X skill from character creation, that is indeed vertical progression. Just not stat gear based.
You gave an example of gear based Vertical progression, which is only a type not it’s entirety.
Whether it is shallow VP or steep is irrelevant.
Wrong. Read again.
I didn’t say its ONLY VP if its gear… I said its VP if its ONLY gear. Unless you’re playing a game where the only factor is what weapon you have and its passive attack power, you’re not playing a purely vertical game. All games have both horizontal/verticle elements.
What defines the category is which one primarily determines the outcome of competition.
" If I need X skill in order to complete content or if X skill makes it easier to complete content and if not everyone has X skill from character creation, that is indeed vertical progression. Just not stat gear based."
You just said EXACTLY, what I said when I typed…
“Yes, You may have to UNLOCK said abilities in horizontal games, making them slightly vertical in nature depending one what requirement is placed on acquisition but…”
So… ? Again, it is which one primarily determines the outcome of competition.
And I say again, it is the same thing. “Depending on which skills you are using” Can be replaced with “Depending on what gear you are using” “I have to do X content to get this skill” “I have to do X content to get this gear” Each one leads to being able to do more content, more efficiently.
Progression does not deal with the outcomes of battles or how you fight the battle, but with the mechanics in how you got to the battle in the first place. Was the player always able to fight this battle from the beginning, or did they have to acquire things in order to fight it? In both cases from your examples, they had to travel vertically to get there. If Horizontal, then I could get there whenever I want, without doing anything extra. For you it’s about “How much?” or “How steep?” When instead it’s a binary choice.
Although connected, combat systems do not determine progression. It is camouflage.
You want innovation and meaningful gameplay, you shouldn’t be playing commercial MMOs.
Judge Banks is right, the modern MMO is nothing more than a callous exercise in separating customers from their cash.
The interesting stuff is happening in games like Dark Souls, DayZ or Rust.
If you’re disillusioned with Guild Wars 2, I can tell you now that you’ll be just as disappointed with Wildstar or The Elder Scrolls Online or Neverwinter or World of Warcraft or Everquest Landmark / Next. They all, to a man, are designed not with the interest of the player at heart. The only interest they cater to is that of share-holders.
Modern MMO “Progression” systems, be they horizontal OR vertical, aren’t designed with fun in mind.
They’re designed as addictive feedback systems.
ArenaNet is the pusher and the players are the junkies.
Please note that due to restrictions placed on my account, I am only allowed 1 post per hour.
Therefore I may take some time replying to you.
Therefore I may take some time replying to you.
You want innovation and meaningful gameplay, you shouldn’t be playing commercial MMOs.
Judge Banks is right, the modern MMO is nothing more than a callous exercise in separating customers from their cash.
The interesting stuff is happening in games like Dark Souls, DayZ or Rust.If you’re disillusioned with Guild Wars 2, I can tell you now that you’ll be just as disappointed with Wildstar or The Elder Scrolls Online or Neverwinter or World of Warcraft or Everquest Landmark / Next. They all, to a man, are designed not with the interest of the player at heart. The only interest they cater to is that of share-holders.
Modern MMO “Progression” systems, be they horizontal OR vertical, aren’t designed with fun in mind.
They’re designed as addictive feedback systems.
ArenaNet is the pusher and the players are the junkies.
Except, those games use the same progression systems to make you buy more games like them. It’s not just MMO’s, it’s all games.
Progression does not deal with the outcomes of battles
I’m not so sure about that part (or perhaps I misunderstand your point there). An objective increase in character power level tied to the outcome of a particular battle is not all that uncommon a form of progression in my experience.
“You must defeat mega-villain-monster-man in order to get the +1 pinky-ring of awesomehood,” is a classic approach to character progression dating back to table top DnD. The outcome of the battle determines whether or not your character experiences vertical progression.
Except, those games use the same progression systems to make you buy more games like them. It’s not just MMO’s, it’s all games.
Seriously?
You’re really going to generalise that much?
That’s akin to saying “Media exists to make you buy more media!”.
There’s a distinction between self-contained monetisation systems such as commercial MMOs, and independent titles.
But of course, this is the Internet. Only sweeping generalisations are true and everything is an argument to be won.
Please note that due to restrictions placed on my account, I am only allowed 1 post per hour.
Therefore I may take some time replying to you.
Therefore I may take some time replying to you.
Except, those games use the same progression systems to make you buy more games like them. It’s not just MMO’s, it’s all games.
Seriously?
You’re really going to generalise that much?
That’s akin to saying “Media exists to make you buy more media!”.There’s a distinction between self-contained monetisation systems such as commercial MMOs, and independent titles.
But of course, this is the Internet. Only sweeping generalisations are true and everything is an argument to be won.
Honest question here,
Why is his sweeping generalization a bad thing, and yours not ?
And I say again, it is the same thing. “Depending on which skills you are using” Can be replaced with “Depending on what gear you are using” “I have to do X content to get this skill” “I have to do X content to get this gear” Each one leads to being able to do more content, more efficiently.
Wrong. Non-equivalents due to nature of their function.
The skill is active. The gear is passive. You equip the gear and forget about it. You have to ACTIVATE the actual skill in combat. You might. You might not. But it has no effect if you don’t use it, unless it comes with a passive effect (see signets).
If I hit you with spiked gloves my strike will hit harder… but it will deal no damage at all unless I choose to hit you. The choice to hit is a skill. The glove is a passive gear-piece.
You may be able to overcome the hit with a block that negates all damage (active skill), a dodge that means it never lands (active skill), or a helmet that absorbs the spikes (passive) but those aren’t categorically the same function of skill mitigation.
Your argument is really lacking.
Progression does not deal with the outcomes of battles or how you fight the battle, but with the mechanics in how you got to the battle in the first place. Was the player always able to fight this battle from the beginning, or did they have to acquire things in order to fight it? In both cases from your examples, they had to travel vertically to get there.
We already said unlocking skills is vertical unless you’re given every skill at the start. So you’re arguing a moot point you already agreed on to boost a bad argument.
You can’t progress past the battle if you don’t have the damage from your skills AND your passive stat gear in … World of warcraft, Aion, Ragnarok Online, Tera… So unlocking is a vertical, gear is also a vertical…
But the choice of how you execute skills is a horizontal which also determines win or loss, but you WON’T EVER beat the DPS meter if your item score is -500 points under required item score, no matter what combination of skills you use.
If Horizontal, then I could get there whenever I want, without doing anything extra. For you it’s about “How much?” or “How steep?” When instead it’s a binary choice.
If EVERY game has BOTH aspects, then the ONLY question is HOW MUCH of each aspect do they have.
It isn’t a binary because you can’t play a video game that doesn’t have both aspects unless its an RNG version of rock paper scissors or a fighting game with all characters pre-unlocked.
Name a purely vertical video game, where any skill combination makes no difference.
Now name a purely horizontal video game, where any gear combination makes no difference (it has to have a gear system… no “street fighter”).
You’ll find both somewhat difficult. You can play with semantics as much as you want to, your argument is still terrible. Because its not binary and you know that. It’s categorized by which system takes precedence.
(edited by Enokitake.1742)
Progression does not deal with the outcomes of battles
I’m not so sure about that part (or perhaps I misunderstand your point there). An objective increase in character power level tied to the outcome of a particular battle is not all that uncommon a form of progression in my experience.
“You must defeat mega-villain-monster-man in order to get the +1 pinky-ring of awesomehood,” is a classic approach to character progression dating back to table top DnD. The outcome of the battle determines whether or not your character experiences vertical progression.
Yes, the reward is tied to progression. And the combat mechanics could be influenced by the slope of the vertical progression. But combat mechanics themselves do not make something VP or HP. They are a symptom, not a cause.
Progression is about how you get places. If you replace +1 pinky ring of awsomehood with Skill " Protection from Sri Lankan Face Ferrets for 5 seconds", and you know that later you’re going to be fighting Face Ferrets, the skill is just as VP as the +1 ring.
Both are VP, just couched differently. In both cases you will need things or certain things will become easier if you have the McGuffin.
With a HP approach, you need neither and used nothing other than your own skill to get to the fight. The reward is then anything you don’t need to get to the next fight, let’s say for instance a spell to make your fireballs cyan instead or orange.
Progression is the journey to get to the fight, and may color how the fight is fought and the reward. “What do I need to do to get to the dragon?”
Progression is the journey to get to the fight, and may color how the fight is fought and the reward. “What do I need to do to get to the dragon?”
Progression is anything that either moves one toward a goal, or provides an objective movement into a superior state of being. It can occur (be pursued) for its own sake even when not moving toward the next fight/match. A player who plays almost exclusively in the Queensdale champion trains, farming for enough gold to buy the legendary of his choice, is experiencing progression even if he never uses the legendary to fight anything other than those same Queensdale champions.
What you describe is one, but not the only, form of progression.
Time to get some sleep. Thank you for a very interesting discussion.
And I say again, it is the same thing. “Depending on which skills you are using” Can be replaced with “Depending on what gear you are using” “I have to do X content to get this skill” “I have to do X content to get this gear” Each one leads to being able to do more content, more efficiently.
Wrong. Non-equivalents due to nature of their function.
The skill is active. The gear is passive. You equip the gear and forget about it. You have to ACTIVATE the actual skill in combat. You might. You might not. But it has no effect if you don’t use it, unless it comes with a passive effect (see signets).
If I hit you with spiked gloves my strike will hit harder… but it will deal no damage at all unless I choose to hit you. The choice to hit is a skill. The glove is a passive gear-piece.
You may be able to overcome the hit with a block that negates all damage (active skill), a dodge that means it never lands (active skill), or a helmet that absorbs the spikes (passive) but those aren’t categorically the same function of skill mitigation.
Your argument is really lacking.
Progression does not deal with the outcomes of battles or how you fight the battle, but with the mechanics in how you got to the battle in the first place. Was the player always able to fight this battle from the beginning, or did they have to acquire things in order to fight it? In both cases from your examples, they had to travel vertically to get there.
We already said unlocking skills is vertical unless you’re given every skill at the start. So you’re arguing a moot point you already agreed on to boost a bad argument.
You can’t progress past the battle if you don’t have the damage from your skills AND your passive stat gear in … World of warcraft, Aion, Ragnarok Online, Tera… So unlocking is a vertical, gear is also a vertical…
But the choice of how you execute skills is a horizontal which also determines win or loss, but you WON’T EVER beat the DPS meter if your item skill is -500 points under required item score, no matter what combination of skills you use.
If Horizontal, then I could get there whenever I want, without doing anything extra. For you it’s about “How much?” or “How steep?” When instead it’s a binary choice.
If EVERY game has BOTH aspects, then the ONLY question is HOW MUCH of each aspect do they have.
It isn’t a binary because you can’t play a video game that doesn’t have both aspects unless its an RNG version of rock paper scissors or a fighting game with all characters pre-unlocked.
Name a purely vertical video game, where any skill combination makes no difference.
Now name a purely horizontal video game, where any gear combination makes no difference (it has to have a gear system… no “street fighter”).
You’ll find both somewhat difficult. You can play with semantics as much as you want to, your argument is still terrible. Because its not binary and you know that. It’s categorized by which system takes precedence.
You’re still trying to discuss the difference between skill based and gear based combat. Those don’t determine progression. They are a symptom of the degree of it and whether a designer chose to use gear based combat. Not even sure what you are going on about any more. You can have entirely skill based combat and it could still have vertical progression to get to the fight in the first place.
I won’t have to find any examples. My whole argument has been about whether a mmorpg could function without VP. I said there were no good examples of such, and it would not succeed without some form of VP. As yet, I have seen no examples of such.
You’re still trying to discuss the difference between skill based and gear based combat. Those don’t determine progression. They are a symptom of the degree of it and whether a designer chose to use gear based combat. Not even sure what you are going on about any more. You can have entirely skill based combat and it could still have vertical progression to get to the fight in the first place.
I won’t have to find any examples. My whole argument has been about whether a mmorpg could function without VP. I said there were no good examples of such, and it would not succeed without some form of VP. As yet, I have seen no examples of such.
On that I agree, because no game can, except maybe very specific genres. You can only marginalize it.
Well GW2 was supposed to be the MMORPG that broke the chains, changed the rules and shifted paradigm of the MMORPG genre.
To quote Steve Jobs “You can’t look at the competition and say we’re going to
do it better. You’ve got to say we’re going to do it different.”That should have been the mantra that Anet lived by.
Isn’t that exactly what they did on many levels?
Well GW2 was supposed to be the MMORPG that broke the chains, changed the rules and shifted paradigm of the MMORPG genre.
To quote Steve Jobs “You can’t look at the competition and say we’re going to
do it better. You’ve got to say we’re going to do it different.”That should have been the mantra that Anet lived by.
Isn’t that exactly what they did on many levels?
That’s how it began, yes. But somewhere along the lines they thought adding a massive gear grind only reliably obtainable through crafting was a good idea.
If I’m going to do the whole gear grind thing, I’d rather be playing other games that know how to do it right. EG: Gear rewards through PVP. And that’s what I’m currently doing.
Well GW2 was supposed to be the MMORPG that broke the chains, changed the rules and shifted paradigm of the MMORPG genre.
To quote Steve Jobs “You can’t look at the competition and say we’re going to
do it better. You’ve got to say we’re going to do it different.”That should have been the mantra that Anet lived by.
Isn’t that exactly what they did on many levels?
Well, they most surely tried to!
RIP ‘gf left me coz of ladderboard’ Total views: 71,688 Total posts: 363
Character advancement has been one of the basic elements of RPGs ever since these games existed, on pen and paper. I’m sorry to say, but if you don’t like vertical progression, this entire genre of games is only going to give you grief. Yeah, that’s right, a lot of people in this thread kept arguing over what an MMO is, but forgot that this is an MMORPG.
That’s an over-simplistic (and incorrect) view of the MMORPG genre. The seminal paper on this is Richard Bartle’s “Players Who Suit MUDs” from 1996. To summarize, he divided online multiplayer RPG players into four groups:
- Achievers – people who like progression
- Explorers – people who like to see new things and figure out stuff
- Socializers – people who like to talk with each other
- Killers – people who like to impose their will onto others
A Bartle Test was quickly made, and the sample size is now over 800,000 players. If you’re an Achiever type and think you represent the bulk of gamers, I’m sorry – you don’t. The most common player type is actually Explorers (people who like “horizontal progression”), not Achievers (people who like “vertical progression”). (I’m ESAK btw.)
Yet the most common type of MMORPG is tailored to satisfy Achievers. Why? Because it turns out to be the best way to make money. It hooks Achievers and gets them to come back to play day after day (spend $$$) on the game. But it also gets the other player types to do the same. They don’t like it, but they feel compelled to do it. Usually it’s so they won’t fall behind and become unable to continue to play with friends (or in the case of killers, unable to kill enemies). It becomes like a second job just so they can continue to play the same game their friends are playing. On a more sublime level it’s also like an itch that needs to be scratched. They don’t enjoy scratching it and know that scratching it is bad for their health, but presented with the opportunity they find their more base human nature leads them to scratch it. I find myself falling for this too – planning out a schedule to get a legendary or using ascended equipment in build editors. Before I remind myself that I have a life and can only play casually, and I’m supposed to be playing this game for fun, not as a second job.
GW1 was rather unique among MMOs in that it was designed to appeal primarily to Explorers. Yes there was progression (levels and gear), but it was ridiculously short. The deeper aspects of the game were almost entirely exploration-related. You had to find which bosses held certain elite skills. You had to do all sorts of different things to earn achievement titles. And most impressively, you had to learn and understand the skills so you could gauge the synergies in a gazillion possible combinations to come up with a good build. That was Explorer nirvana. I think I actually spent more time playing around with build editors and doing math on the skills than I did playing the game. It was brilliant.
This is the clientele GW2 was promised to serve. The Explorers, the Killers, the Socializers – the casual players. Achievers were supposed to be given the lowest priority. Even with the concessions Anet has made to Achievers, this is still true. Ascended equipment only gives about a 5% bonus. The legendary weapons are pretty to look at, but I’ve never felt I had to have one. Unlike other MMORPGs which try to make you waste time doing the same thing over and over again (because that’s the only way to slow down the progress of someone who’s playing 6-12 hours a day), the bulk of the GW2’s content has been aimed at pushing you to do different things. Diminishing returns in loot drops to discourage you from farming the same area continuously. Achievement points for trying out all the different aspects of each new living story release. Daily achievements which change every day. The skill system isn’t as rich and complex as GW1’s, but it still has enough depth that in most cases the best way to figure out if a build is good is to go out there and try it in PvE and PvP. They’re planning to nerf berserker’s stats because it’s The Best Choice in too many situations. All of these are designed to push you outside your comfort zone and try new and different things. To make you explore different parts of the game.
In that respect, it’s still an Explorer’s game despite the introduction of ascended and legendary gear. I just wish the skill system had as much depth and complexity as GW1.
Thanks for bringing it back to my original statement as well. MMO means massive amounts of players.
How do you get players to play? Carrots.
Who chases carrots more than anyone else? Hardcores, elitists, min maxers, grinders etc etc
Who populates the worlds to make them massive in the first place? Non casuals.
Who are MMOrpgs targeted at? People who will play a lot, or in GW2’s case, people who will also buy gold to shortcut the grind.
Actually, this is a common misconception usually promoted by hardcore players who see themselves as most important because they play the most. The hardcore players actually represent the biggest drain on a game. They pay the same (for a monthly fee game) or buy roughly the same amount (for a cash shop game). But because they’re online 6-12 hours a day, they consume a disproportionately large amount of the game’s operational resources (servers, network bandwidth, GM support, etc).
The players who drive the game to financial success are the casual players. The ones who pay their $12.95 every month and log in for an hour every other day. Or buy the latest fashion in the cash shop and wear it once a week. (Consumables are purchased at the same rate for both relative to time played.) Casual players represent the largest amount of income per operational resources consumed. Taken as a zero-sum average, the company makes money off of casual players, but loses money on the hardcore players.
Hardcore players bring other benefits to the game, like viral publicity and a more active community. But strictly on the basis of income, casual players represent the higher profit margin.
This is my thoughts on the matter;
This game has an overall.. Odd design. What you have, is that everything has the potential to drop something valuable. HOWEVER, to make up for this, the drop rates for everything are EXTREMELY low. Even for boss-specified skins, like the Wurm and Tequatl Ascended gear. The result is you can only access it on a practical level via crafting, which from almost everyone I’ve heard of, is dull and boring. Which I’m inclined to agree with.
The next problem is the Ascended Gear’s very conceptual design. It’s time gated in crafting, so that people can’t rush. However I for on remember many threads with “First to make Ascended _ (Server name here)” when Weapons and Armor released respectively. And this was within hours of release. So on the one hand, it’s time gated to slow people down, yet clearly the design failed to do this. On top of that, Ascended was designed for people who were more hardcore in a sense of progression.. Yet.. it was time gated for people to be able to keep up? Wut? The whole design of VP to some degree is that some people are stronger than others for working towards a goal. So having those people restricted seems restricted for people who don’t want to be left behind seems a bit ironic, given its design requires people to be on unequal levels.
Ascended was made for fractals, yet, it is available outside of fractals for use. This is okay, I guess, but it’s not really something that should’ve been allowed to filter into WvW. Anet could’ve easily changed WvW to make it like the sPvP environment but they didn’t so there’s that. I understand why, but I’ll get to that later. The other issue is the stat curve. The stat curve isn’t remotely worth the grind, yet it’s just enough to be at that point where you’re better off getting it than not. There’s already people asking for “Ascended only”, so yay for that. Finally the stats are rigid as heck. So if tommorow Anet changed stat-interaction, or made condition builds more viable and Zerks less so or such, you’ll have to grind a whole new set and spend a month or so again. GG WP for that. And both those things are easy to understand.
Now; Why?
The reason and rational is pretty simple.
It’s a psychological game. VP is a egg laid by whoever was the first person to realize how they could use Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs in the industry of MMOs. The last tier of MHN is “Self-Actualization” – that sense of pride, of accomplishment, superiority and greatness. This is where Ascended comes from. It is precisely in the middle of useless and necessary, and that’s why people hate it, but need it. The reason why they’ve made the stats so rigid, is so that they can change it – as they are with fury – and so that you need to spend more time grinding to feel that same accomplishment again. And assume that no PVE player cared for it, they made WvW unofficially require it by again making the stat gain precisely too great to ignore and too small to consider serious. Finally, it works because the vast majority of users are still in that mindset, and even though they don’t want VP, it’s sort of like a forbidden fruit that they can’t truly resist.
Now you can quote me with a tin-foil hat post, but this is the basic law of marketing; You need to make the client feel like they need whatever you’re selling. They need to want it and chase it, you shouldn’t need to come to them to get them to buy it. And look what’s happening? It’s a self rewarding system. There will come a time where not having ascended will be frowned upon because that’s what the ultimate goal is. Anet won’t have any traffic if there’s nothing for the players to bite at.
Good or bad? That’s individual opinion. I don’t like it, but I’ll quote my dad on the matter;
“..Gamers are loyal to their games, but games are never loyal to gamers..”
I ? Karkas.
I read the first page of responses to this thread, mine probably wont be read but I will say this anyway.
Currently ascended armour is the worst form of progression I’ve ever seen on an MMORPG. I know many people don’t want progression but it really stumps as to why not, why would you NOT want to have goals to aim for.
What do you aim for if there’s no gear progression, living story? pve? wvw? all these could be a lot better with gear progression.
If there was no progression in this game then what would people aim for? weapons and armour skins? sorry but I got bored 10 months ago of trying to look like a special snowflake compared to everyone else. I want enticing content with rewards that matter, I want challenges and offer me decent rewards or rewards that are acceptable for the time/effort of said challenges. NOT pve story content which ends every month and poor balance updates… sigh, this game has so much but it’s just going no where
Klaus Night (Necro)/ Elvahaduken (Engi) [TaG] Gunnars Hold
Cannon
And yet, you still haven’t bothered to answer my questions either, why should I bother with yours?
If you think advancing your skills in a game like Eve makes it a VP game, you’re fooling yourself. Why not post that question in the Eve forums and see what response you get.
And yes, casuals chasing carrots. GW2 is the crowning achievement of the carrot-chasing casual. The Achievement system, the mini’s, the dyes, the map completions, the skins, etc…all carrots. The one’s that don’t go after carrots much, unless you count challenge as a carrot, are the pvpers and hard-core gamers.
Bubbles
That’s a very limited definition of rpg. I can log into GW2, role-play for months, and never advance my character in levels if I want. Old-school D&D is just one approach to role-play, there are thousands of ways to do it.
Oh, and I haven’t lost the argument bud. Nor am I ignoring him.
Because you never asked a question? Just wanted to make a couple snarky one liners and not actually be called on it.
Apparently you define a casual as someone who has an inordinate amount of time to spend in game and is obsessively goal oriented , while a hardcore is someone who doesn’t and isn’t. Not sure where you’re getting your definitions. If your idea of EvE as HP is any indication, perhaps from there?
Sure I did, I asked you to name an mmorpg without a skillbar. If you wanted to just make snarky one-liners, that’s alright I guess. But I still get to call you out on it.
When did I say a casual is goal-oriented? I hate to tell you this, but leveling isn’t any more goal-oriented than a birthday is. There’s no challenge or skill involved in leveling or grinding for gear, it’s a rat race. You probably think getting 20k Achievement points is a goal-oriented activity, no? Also, a high time-investment doesn’t necessarily exclude a casual, there are plenty of casuals who spend eons of time in GW2. Not sure where you’re getting your definitions either.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.
Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.
Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles
It’s common sense.
You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.
Nope. Google the terms if you want to know what they mean. You will not find opinion pieces, at least not on what character progression is. There really aren’t opinions on this aspect of character progression. Opinions come in around whether you prefer a given mode of character progression. I’m not going to respond to you again because you are simply wrong. All you need to do is google the terms to know this, so you are now wrong by choice. The definitions I used are conventionally understood. They are not narrow. And, you do not understand what the terms mean.
I completely understand what they mean. I just choose not to cherry pick.
There’s your two search queries. Opinions everywhere.
Give me an example of a hit where they suggest that skill or ability progression represents an example of vertical progression, which is what you said it was. What you will find, if you read the results from major gaming sites, is that they all say the same thing about what vertical progression and horizontal progression are. There are no opinions about that. There are opinions about whether one or the other are better. And, if you read the search results, you will learn what the terms mean.
Interestingly, Mike O, founder of Anet agrees with me on this. You said that the kind of progression, skill/ability, that GW1 had was ‘vertical’ progression. Mike said “Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 — no VP ever, year after year…”. Mike said that skill/ability progression is not vertical progression. Nothing special here though, as most people know what the terms mean.
(edited by Raine.1394)
LoL-Not an MMO
DotA- Not an MMO
GW1-Not an MMO
DayZ-Not an MMO
TF2-Not an MMOWhat MMO has been thriving and raking in the most money?
You mean what WoW clone is successful? Umm... none.
News - flash: MMO =/= Everquest clone.
Rubios – Tales of the Sunless [TXS]
(edited by Spiuk.8421)
I read the first page of responses to this thread, mine probably wont be read but I will say this anyway.
Currently ascended armour is the worst form of progression I’ve ever seen on an MMORPG. I know many people don’t want progression but it really stumps as to why not, why would you NOT want to have goals to aim for.
What do you aim for if there’s no gear progression, living story? pve? wvw? all these could be a lot better with gear progression.
If there was no progression in this game then what would people aim for? weapons and armour skins? sorry but I got bored 10 months ago of trying to look like a special snowflake compared to everyone else. I want enticing content with rewards that matter, I want challenges and offer me decent rewards or rewards that are acceptable for the time/effort of said challenges. NOT pve story content which ends every month and poor balance updates… sigh, this game has so much but it’s just going no where
Well, to me, active progression is much greater than passive progression. GW1 handled this well by having the player max his/her passive progression (armor, runes, etc) early in the game, while providing a long active progression system (acquiring skills).
With passive progression you pick a build, then you find gear for that build. The gear does not change the build whatsoever besides making the numbers bigger.
With active progression, the the rewards you get from progression actively change the way you play the game. You have a build set up with your current skills, but then you find another skill that makes you want to try another build. Or, you find a skill that compliments your build and you have to actively use it, thus changing how you play the game.
GW2 offers me nothing after I have unlocked all the skills for my character. For me, the game ends there. The only thing to do after level thirty is get passive gear pieces so my numbers get bigger, and that is not at all engaging to me.
The thing that irks me the most is the trait system. ArenaNet claimed they made the skill pool smaller in GW2 because of balance issues, but all they really did is cut all the activated passive skills from GW1 and add them as traits.
For me, it is much more fun to have triggered effects in an active manner rather than a passive manner. In GW2, you choose a trait that “whenever you X, you gain Y”. In GW1, you would have an enchantment skill that you actively used which accomplished the same thing. The difference is that in GW2 once you have it, you do not have to think about it (similar to gear). In GW1, you had to choose when and where was the best time in a fight to use such a skill, thus leading to more strategic choices for the player. Not to mention that these effects, when used at the wrong times, could be removed or stolen.
Examples of actived passive abilities from GW1:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Channeling
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Explosive_Growth
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Contagion
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hundred_Blades
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Archer%27s_Signet
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blessed_Aura
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_Remedy
The strategic value of these activated passive skills was enhanced by the fact you had a limited skill bar. These features are all parts of GW1 that, to me, made it a one-of-a-kind and innovative game.
GW2 is overflowing with passive choices and effects. You pick nine skills, and then every choice that you make as a player after you have picked your skills is a passive benefit that, to me, is not engaging at all.
TL;DR
GW2 would be more unique and engaging to the player if the progression system revolved around active changes to your character rather than passive changes to your character.
(edited by stayBlind.7849)
I’m curious to know if you, the people that asked for vertical progression/gear grind/carrot on a stick, are happy with Ascended gear being added to the game. Is this what you were after? Are you now satisfied? Or are you disappointed? Are you now craving the next level of grind/progression/carrot chasing? Or have you already returned to whatever game it is you came from?
I’d really like to know if this was really worth damaging the game for me and many others.
Those that say Vertical Progression/gear grind is necessary for a games longevity, then how do you explain successful games such as LoL, DOTA 2, GW1, DAY Z and TF2 (currently 10 x more popular than Planteside 2, even after over 6 years.) all thriving with little to no vertical progression/gear grind?
First of all;
Guildwars 2 = Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMORPG)
DotA 2 = Massive Online Battle Arena (MOBA)
LoL = Massive Online Battle Arena (MOBA)
TF2 = Online Multiplayer FPS
DAYz = Online Shooter/Hack’n’Slash
THESE ARE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT GENRE’S. AND AS THUS, THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN HOW THEY ARE BALANCED, MARKETED, EVOLVED, PLAYED AND CREATED.
A MOBA is based upon competitive arena matches. Everything is supposed to be balanced in such a way that you have enemies you got advantages over, and some enemies got advantages over you.
A FPS game is just that, a first person shooter. You point, you click, you shoot and avoid getting shot back.
A shooter is simply a game where you blow enemies apart using guns and or whatever you got at hand without any real motivation behind the whole ordeal other then “kill because (insert shallow reasoning)”. If you kill random mobs using melee with that same conscept, it is called a hack’n’slash game.
For MMORPG’s, vertical progression is a must at some point, sometimes, it arrives too soon, other times, it arrives way way too late.
Lv 80 Guard, Ranger, Ele, Thief, warr, engi
Currently @ some T1 server in EU
Currently @ some T1 server in EU
I hope they bring in vertical progression on gear. I am having enough trouble logging anymore with new content all being zergy & skilless. I have broken my addiction to the game. Additional gear grind would be the nail in the coffin for my GW2 experience.
For MMORPG’s, vertical progression is a must at some point, sometimes, it arrives too soon, other times, it arrives way way too late.
Why? Why is it a must?
I hope they bring in vertical progression on gear.
Additional gear grind would be the nail in the coffin for my GW2 experience.
You want more vertical progression, but you don’t want a grind …. i don’t get it. Was the 1st statement sarcasm or something?
Developers have tried HP for years, it doesn’t work. People don’t want it. It doesn’t populate a world. It’s too casual. It doesn’t make people log in.
People who log in every day, who populate servers, who make the zerg, who make the guilds, the Hardcores people sneer at, the min maxers, the elitists. These are the people who MMO’s are targeted at.
A casual, horizontal progression based pve focused MMO wouldn’t keep people logging in. And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO. Horizontal progression is a carrot that isn’t a carrot. Players need a why. To look pretty? May as well play Super Fun Barbie Adventure Dress Up Time. Do you see a SFBADUT mmo?
It’s why Ascended isn’t drawing people to this game. There is no reason to go after it. It’s an empty, shallow, pointless progression system. There is zero reason for it to be in there.
Horizontal “progression” will never successfully happen in an mmorpg focused on pve content. It’s human nature. People want to progress, and they want that progression to matter.
Therein lies the ultimate issue: ArenaNet didn’t want to upset all the GW1 fans (arguably the ones that should be the staunchest GW supporters) by implementing a crazy expensive, time-gated grind that was NECESSARY to succeed at the game.
They had already felt the fallout and lashback from the player-base with the initial introduction of Ascended.
So they kept it to a 5% increase on stats…
It’s beneficial, but not required.
However, it’s extremely time-gated and expensive…
So if it’s not required, and the armor doesn’t look that great (most people would probably just Transmute over top of it)…
Then what’s the point to crafting it?
They failed to appease vertical progressionists because it doesn’t give them enough artificial superiority…
And it just upset the horizontal progressionists (who arguably supported ANet the most… with GW1 and then pre-ordering GW2 on the promise of horizontal gameplay).
Actually, it is not a failure it is rather brilliant on that part and here is why.
By making it the difference between having ascended armor and exotic low, the player that hate VP, don’t feel compelled to get to it and they don’t feel punished for not having it. By making it ugly, it gives the people that hate VP an even bigger reason to not waste their time getting the armor. If the armor actually looked good, a lot more people would be compelled to get it which leads to more discontent.
So the only ones getting the armor are those that enjoy vertical progression, the ones that have to have the BiS. Everybody wins, the people who love VP get their +5 percent , the ones who hate VP, don’t waste their time over 5% + ugly armor.
The percentage difference is not significant in any mode of combat. IT is not in WvW, unless you are equally skilled, same lag, 1v1, same build, same foods and same amount of luck. Too many variables to control.
As u know im pro. ~Tomonobu Itagaki
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
(edited by silvermember.8941)
In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.Armbrace of Truth.
That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.
It’s a matter of perception of course but I would say the same about ascended gear – the difference is too small to make me feel worse off then someone in full ascended, to the point that I only pursue them very leisurely (have 3 trinkets and 1 weapon – despite trinkets being practically free).
As long as Anet doesnt compound the issue by releasing “enlightened” gear with even higher stats, I consider the complaints about ascended gear as vastly overblown diatribe.
It’s a matter of perception, alright. To me the stat difference is not small and all the complaints are perfectly justified.
I remember hearing a tiny alarm go off in my head when I learned that GW2 would feature lots of character stats on gear. I poo-pooed the thought based on what ANet was saying about gear progression prior to launch, and based on my experiences in GW. Unfortunately, the stats-on-gear decision opened up the possibility of people asking for more stats on gear. In that respect I should have listened to my doubts.
On the other hand, Ascended is a compromise between the hard-capped, easy to attain max gear of GW and the seriously-improved stats that completely trivialize prior content tied to specific content in WoW-style MMO’s. Smaller stat improvements and tying acquisition to a variety of content were attempts to ameliorate the negatives of introducing gear chase to the game in the first place.
Different folks will react differently to the way Asc was implemented. My take was that trinkets and backs were for the most part OK, but that crafting as the only realistic means to gain weapons and armor was not. This is because, for me, herd content is not fun. Frankly, if they were going to tie gear acquisition to specific group content, I would have preferred it were dungeons. Turns out that the emphasis on large encounters in the persistent world was the pre-launch hype I should have paid more attention to.
For MMORPG’s, vertical progression is a must at some point
No.
Rubios – Tales of the Sunless [TXS]
If I wanted vertical progression I would have stuck to WoW, their game was built for vertical progression and is a much more rewarding experience. I came to GW2 to play wvw and the happy thoughts that I wouldn’t have to upgrade my pvp gear every season, like you need to do in WoW every 6 months, but two months into release and that illusion wkittentered.
Now every time I step into wvw I always have to think about obtaining ascended gear, because sooner or later enough people are going to have enough pieces to make a difference in battles. Why oh why was this game not build with spvp and wvw systems separate from pve.
I have the exact same opinion. I came to this game from wow for the same reason.
I came to GW2 from RO for the same reason as well.
First of all;
Guildwars 2 = Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMORPG)
DotA 2 = Massive Online Battle Arena (MOBA)
LoL = Massive Online Battle Arena (MOBA)
TF2 = Online Multiplayer FPS
DAYz = Online Shooter/Hack’n’SlashTHESE ARE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT GENRE’S. AND AS THUS, THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN HOW THEY ARE BALANCED, MARKETED, EVOLVED, PLAYED AND CREATED.
A MOBA is based upon competitive arena matches. Everything is supposed to be balanced in such a way that you have enemies you got advantages over, and some enemies got advantages over you.
A FPS game is just that, a first person shooter. You point, you click, you shoot and avoid getting shot back.
A shooter is simply a game where you blow enemies apart using guns and or whatever you got at hand without any real motivation behind the whole ordeal other then “kill because (insert shallow reasoning)”. If you kill random mobs using melee with that same conscept, it is called a hack’n’slash game.For MMORPG’s, vertical progression is a must at some point, sometimes, it arrives too soon, other times, it arrives way way too late.
If that’s really the definition of MMORPG than this genre ought to die. Remember when MMORPG were RPG that were all about the immersion of playing a character/person with powers you can’t archieve IRL, just for the sake of it plus awesome adventures- but with thousands of other people who populate your world? Me neither. For some reason every single mmorpg there is got lost somewhere down the road and focuses on gear and stats / spreadsheet based combat now. However that doesn’t change my defintion of MMORPGs which doesn’t involve those things at all. VP is a degenerated feature which merely mutated to the most important aspect of MMORPGs because the last time somebody dared innovation was back when the first everquest mmo was released…
(edited by Escadin.9482)
It’s a matter of perception, alright. To me the stat difference is not small and all the complaints are perfectly justified.
The difference is small if you know the game mechanics, but you are right in a way. To someone losing 10 bucks isn’t that big of a deal to some it losing 10 bucks is a huge deal.
As u know im pro. ~Tomonobu Itagaki
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
If that’s really the definition of MMORPG than this genre ought to die. Remember when MMORPG were RPG that were all about the immersion of playing a character/person with powers you can’t archieve IRL, just for the sake of it plus awesome adventures- but with thousands of other people who populate your world? Me neither. For some reason every single mmorpg there is got lost somewhere down the road and focuses on gear and stats / spreadsheet based combat now. However that doesn’t change my defintion of MMORPGs which doesn’t involve those things at all. VP is a degenerated feature which merely mutated to the most important aspect of MMORPGs because the last time somebody dared innovation was back when the first everquest mmo was released…
Bingo.
Game companies relish VP because it’s a superb way to monetize the game, not because it’s part of an MMO’s DNA or something. It’s just been this way so long we all assume it has to be in there.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
Well another one of THESE posts. I thought I had finally seen the last of these. Well I will give my opinion since thread is here.
I am a casual player. I don’t have the time to play like I did when I was younger and didn’t have a family. I also don’t have the money to buy my way through either. Just getting that out of the way. I actually enjoy having some progression in this game. It gives me something to work towards while playing. But I don’t understand where everyone comes up with this grind.
I have played many games that had grind, what it takes to get ascended in this game is not a grind unless you make it a grind. I enjoy fighting world boss events and temples, I run dungeons and fractals almost every night because it is what I enjoy the most. I don’t run with pugs and do almost everything with my friends in my guild. I take days off here and there to spend time with my family doing other fun stuff. I have one toon almost totally outfitted with ascended and two other ones with weapons and trinkets. I don’t feel I grinded for any of it. I am in no hurry to get it. There is nothing in this game that requires it unless your doing really high level fractals and even then it should only require the weapons.
So where is this grind you speak of. I don’t see it. I have gotten all my mats from playing the game the way I want to play it and until they add content that requires it, then there is no reason to hurry and get it, which would cause a grind. If you feel there is a grind then it is a self imposed grind not one that is there naturally like in so many other games.
As for VP, a little VP isn’t a bad thing. YOu will never have a successful MMO without a little VP. The game won’t be able to support itself. I think GW2 does a good balance. I wish they would bring in more of the armor skins from GW1 which you had to farm dungeons for or bosses, but that is a different story. The OP brought GW1 up in his post, you know it had a lot of grind to it, getting the weapon drop you wanted, or gathering the mats to make one of the armors. Those were grinds but since it was a grind for something that doesn’t matter everyone looks past them. Currently ascended doesn’t matter except for one area of the game, so I think the “grind” for it isn’t bad.
Now talking about some other modes of GW2, WvW the ascended might make a dent but nothing mind blowing. I know I still get my butt handed to me out there in my ascended stuff if I am not paying really good attention. But the current META of zerg this and zerg that, it doesn’t really come down to anything other then luck, well maybe luck isn’t the right word but I can’t think of another right now. But the nice thing is they added ways for people who only play WvW to obtain ascended, so I don’t see how that changes much.
Hjorje
______________________________________
Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of my way.
______________________________________
Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of my way.
If I wanted vertical progression I would have stuck to WoW, their game was built for vertical progression and is a much more rewarding experience. I came to GW2 to play wvw and the happy thoughts that I wouldn’t have to upgrade my pvp gear every season, like you need to do in WoW every 6 months, but two months into release and that illusion wkittentered.
Now every time I step into wvw I always have to think about obtaining ascended gear, because sooner or later enough people are going to have enough pieces to make a difference in battles. Why oh why was this game not build with spvp and wvw systems separate from pve.
I have the exact same opinion. I came to this game from wow for the same reason.
I came to GW2 from RO for the same reason as well.
First of all;
Guildwars 2 = Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMORPG)
DotA 2 = Massive Online Battle Arena (MOBA)
LoL = Massive Online Battle Arena (MOBA)
TF2 = Online Multiplayer FPS
DAYz = Online Shooter/Hack’n’SlashTHESE ARE FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT GENRE’S. AND AS THUS, THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN HOW THEY ARE BALANCED, MARKETED, EVOLVED, PLAYED AND CREATED.
A MOBA is based upon competitive arena matches. Everything is supposed to be balanced in such a way that you have enemies you got advantages over, and some enemies got advantages over you.
A FPS game is just that, a first person shooter. You point, you click, you shoot and avoid getting shot back.
A shooter is simply a game where you blow enemies apart using guns and or whatever you got at hand without any real motivation behind the whole ordeal other then “kill because (insert shallow reasoning)”. If you kill random mobs using melee with that same conscept, it is called a hack’n’slash game.For MMORPG’s, vertical progression is a must at some point, sometimes, it arrives too soon, other times, it arrives way way too late.
If that’s really the definition of MMORPG than this genre ought to die. Remember when MMORPG were RPG that were all about the immersion of playing a character/person with powers you can’t archieve IRL, just for the sake of it plus awesome adventures- but with thousands of other people who populate your world? Me neither. For some reason every single mmorpg there is got lost somewhere down the road and focuses on gear and stats / spreadsheet based combat now. However that doesn’t change my defintion of MMORPGs which doesn’t involve those things at all. VP is a degenerated feature which merely mutated to the most important aspect of MMORPGs because the last time somebody dared innovation was back when the first everquest mmo was released…
There is a reason why MMORPG =/= RPG. If you hate grind don’t play an MMORPG.
MMORPG to me are inherently bad video games. The purpose of a video game is to have fun, the purpose of an MMORPG it to waste your time as much as possible in other to make you think you are having fun.
Ultimately, your definition of an MMORPG is irrelevant to anything. You can scream it all you want, but companies are catering to what they think is the majority of the market desire. So your opinion of the what constitutes an MMORPG doesn’t mean kitten, if you strongly feel that way make an MMORPG that suits that vision. Until then you will have to take whatever companies make and you can either play it or not.
Finally, it is always amusing seeing player idealize Everquest and see them bemoan how current MMORPG lack the soul of the EQ without ever trying to figure why that is. They complain how modern MMO don’t seem to capture EQ and blah blah blah. Let me tell you, the reason why no MMORPG can stand up to EQ is probably because people tend to idealize the past and they expect a other MMO to recapture an idealization (same reason why older folks love to idealize the 50s). Nothing will ever beat the first time you experience something you enjoy.
As u know im pro. ~Tomonobu Itagaki
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
That’s an over-simplistic (and incorrect) view of the MMORPG genre. The seminal paper on this is Richard Bartle’s “Players Who Suit MUDs” from 1996. To summarize, he divided online multiplayer RPG players into four groups:
- Achievers – people who like progression
- Explorers – people who like to see new things and figure out stuff
- Socializers – people who like to talk with each other
- Killers – people who like to impose their will onto others
A Bartle Test was quickly made, and the sample size is now over 800,000 players. If you’re an Achiever type and think you represent the bulk of gamers, I’m sorry – you don’t. The most common player type is actually Explorers (people who like “horizontal progression”), not Achievers (people who like “vertical progression”). (I’m ESAK btw.)
…
There’s no relationship between Achievers/Explorers and Vertical/Horizontal progression.
Achievers are described as “players that give themselves game-related goals, and vigorously set out to achieve them”.
Any players devoted to farming for a cool skin (horizontal progression) is strictly an achiever.
An Explorer archetype appreciate horizontal progression through tons of classes, skills, traits and gear choices to mix, match and play with. On the other hand, they couldn’t care less about a cosmetic-type horizontal progression.
GW1 was amazing for Explorers, but IMHO GW2 clearly caters to achievers and maybe socializers.
There’s for sure a lot for a fresh explorer to discover and enjoy, but the game is too simple in terms of build optimizing (specially for PvE) and the interest will eventually vanish.
Finally, it is always amusing seeing player idealize Everquest and see them bemoan how current MMORPG lack the soul of the EQ without ever trying to figure why that is. They complain how modern MMO don’t seem to capture EQ and blah blah blah. Let me tell you, the reason why no MMORPG can stand up to EQ is probably because people tend to idealize the past and they expect a other MMO to recapture an idealization (same reason why older folks love to idealize the 50s). Nothing will ever beat the first time you experience something you enjoy.
Wow, speak for yourself man. I remember my first time in bed with a woman. She was about as much fun as log in a forest.
Old folks like the 50’s because it reminds them of their youth. You know…when they could do whatever they want and not have a care in the world? Kinda like a lot of us here? It has little to do with being the “first” experience of their lives.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
Finally, it is always amusing seeing player idealize Everquest and see them bemoan how current MMORPG lack the soul of the EQ without ever trying to figure why that is. They complain how modern MMO don’t seem to capture EQ and blah blah blah. Let me tell you, the reason why no MMORPG can stand up to EQ is probably because people tend to idealize the past and they expect a other MMO to recapture an idealization (same reason why older folks love to idealize the 50s). Nothing will ever beat the first time you experience something you enjoy.
Wow, speak for yourself man. I remember my first time in bed with a woman. She was about as much fun as log in a forest.
Old folks like the 50’s because it reminds them of their youth. You know…when they could do whatever they want and not have a care in the world? Kinda like a lot of us here? It has little to do with being the “first” experience of their lives.
Good for you buddy, but i was talking about things you enjoyed and had a big emotional impact.
I guess you are the antithesis of nostalgia.
As u know im pro. ~Tomonobu Itagaki
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
Vertical progression has been around through the vast array of single player computer RPGs that have been made. Even if there were no levels in the RPG (something that is very rare to not have), there was still the equipment. Run around with a normal sword until the +1 sword comes along, and immediately swap to that because… it was better. Armor would get better, magic items would appear, allowing you to further progress to tougher and tougher creatures until you finished the last quest, thus ending the game.
Tabletop RPGs (PnP) were no different. Yes, there was actual roleplaying involved, and yes you’d get immersed in the world. However, there was always that tinge of excitement when you’d gain a level or find that item that made you more powerful. And even if you didn’t find the item, you could save up gold and… gasp buy that item. And why would you buy the item? Why, to become more powerful, of course! And eventually, you would complete the last quest and finish the campaign, retiring your hero as a champion of the world, or if unlucky, a dead hero or martyr.
Here’s the bottom line, folks. Vertical progression has existed throughout the RPG history. MMORPGs are no different when it comes to progression. There has to be a goal to achieve. In fact, since the MMORPG never really ends, one could say that vertical progression, either through skills or gear, has to be there. What other incentive could there be to continue playing the game? It is all about the power of the character… of achieving bigger and better things, if for no other reason than to go and kill the next big bad monster around the corner. Vertical progression is a necessity.
The argument of whether or not there should be vertical progression is moot. The way the vertical progression has been doled out, however, is a valid topic of debate. I personally don’t have an issue with how it’s been handled, but I can certainly see why others wouldn’t like it as much. I play the game for the enjoyment of playing all aspects of the game… even crafting. This style of progression doesn’t affect me. I do, however, know there are others that don’t enjoy crafting at all, and I agree that they shouldn’t be forced to do it.
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
Good for you buddy, but i was talking about things you enjoyed and had a big emotional impact.
Well yeah, there are those too. But they didn’t have anything to do with just being a long time ago. Meaning, the level of nostalgia is not directly proportional to the amount of time passed.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
There is a reason why MMORPG =/= RPG. If you hate grind don’t play an MMORPG.
MMORPG to me are inherently bad video games. The purpose of a video game is to have fun, the purpose of an MMORPG it to waste your time as much as possible in other to make you think you are having fun.
Ultimately, your definition of an MMORPG is irrelevant to anything. You can scream it all you want, but companies are catering to what they think is the majority of the market desire. So your opinion of the what constitutes an MMORPG doesn’t mean kitten, if you strongly feel that way make an MMORPG that suits that vision. Until then you will have to take whatever companies make and you can either play it or not.
Finally, it is always amusing seeing player idealize Everquest and see them bemoan how current MMORPG lack the soul of the EQ without ever trying to figure why that is. They complain how modern MMO don’t seem to capture EQ and blah blah blah. Let me tell you, the reason why no MMORPG can stand up to EQ is probably because people tend to idealize the past and they expect a other MMO to recapture an idealization (same reason why older folks love to idealize the 50s). Nothing will ever beat the first time you experience something you enjoy.
Yep that’s exactly my problem: Companies do not care about my personal opinion and why should they? I don’t denamd they do, I just wanted to write my frustation down for a change.
On the other hand I have see quite a few MMO games which come much closer to what MMORPGs should be. Yes some of them had VP too but it was a feature – not the point. And yet those game don’t seem to be a commercial fail. Indie projects occasionally proof that innovation can have marketing value and imo the biggest part of the current MMORPG audience is happy with what they have, but they wouldn’t cry if something fresh was created.
And yet Anet rather goes through the agony of balancing flawed gamemechanic ontop of flawed gamemechanics (called new feature), wastes ressources on content that doesn’t really matter/fit by design (turret and minions skills or stealth for example) and all the negative feedback from that smaller part of the community which cares about what they play, because they take it a bit more seriously.
All in all it just doesn’t seem impossible, hard or unprofitable to change the genre to me, which is what makes this stalemate so frustrating.
PS. Don’t get me wrong I don’t idealize EQ. I have never even played it but they say it’s origin of what most people call MMORPG today, and this genre simply never had any real innovation since birth, so EQ is also the first and last time innovation happened.
(edited by Escadin.9482)
Vertical progression has been around through the vast array of single player computer RPGs that have been made. Even if there were no levels in the RPG (something that is very rare to not have), there was still the equipment. Run around with a normal sword until the +1 sword comes along, and immediately swap to that because… it was better. Armor would get better, magic items would appear, allowing you to further progress to tougher and tougher creatures until you finished the last quest, thus ending the game.
Tabletop RPGs (PnP) were no different. Yes, there was actual roleplaying involved, and yes you’d get immersed in the world. However, there was always that tinge of excitement when you’d gain a level or find that item that made you more powerful. And even if you didn’t find the item, you could save up gold and… gasp buy that item. And why would you buy the item? Why, to become more powerful, of course! And eventually, you would complete the last quest and finish the campaign, retiring your hero as a champion of the world, or if unlucky, a dead hero or martyr.
Here’s the bottom line, folks. Vertical progression has existed throughout the RPG history. MMORPGs are no different when it comes to progression. There has to be a goal to achieve. In fact, since the MMORPG never really ends, one could say that vertical progression, either through skills or gear, has to be there. What other incentive could there be to continue playing the game? It is all about the power of the character… of achieving bigger and better things, if for no other reason than to go and kill the next big bad monster around the corner. Vertical progression is a necessity.
The argument of whether or not there should be vertical progression is moot. The way the vertical progression has been doled out, however, is a valid topic of debate. I personally don’t have an issue with how it’s been handled, but I can certainly see why others wouldn’t like it as much. I play the game for the enjoyment of playing all aspects of the game… even crafting. This style of progression doesn’t affect me. I do, however, know there are others that don’t enjoy crafting at all, and I agree that they shouldn’t be forced to do it.
Vertical progression is not necessary. What is actually necessary is character progression. Ideally, we are invested in our characters and want to see them progress. The amount of identification with a character varies greatly but all players want their character to expand-evolve-advance whatever you want to call it.
Now, this is where you get to the two dominant methods of character progression, vertical and horizontal. Before you go any further, google “horizontal progression” and read the first couple three hits. These will generally contrast it to vertical progression. Horizontal progression, primarily through ability progression, allows players to vastly expand their characters. Vertical progression actually provides nothing but new numbers on a character sheet. In WoW I started at around 10-15k HP. Now I’m around 500k HP with corresponding increases is power and nothing has changed. I die just as fast and mobs take just as long to kill. The emperor of VP has no clothes.
Contrast that to ability progression where you explore, unlock new skills, and discover ways to enhance those skills. This may completely change your gameplay and utility in groups. This is where true build diversity occurs.
No, vertical progression is not necessary in an MMO. Google ESO +"character progression". What they talk about on their video is essentially skill progression of the horizontal variety regardless of what they do with VP. Why? Because it offers true character progression rather than the larger number VP offers.
(edited by Raine.1394)
There is a reason why MMORPG =/= RPG. If you hate grind don’t play an MMORPG.
MMORPG to me are inherently bad video games. The purpose of a video game is to have fun, the purpose of an MMORPG it to waste your time as much as possible in other to make you think you are having fun.
Ultimately, your definition of an MMORPG is irrelevant to anything. You can scream it all you want, but companies are catering to what they think is the majority of the market desire. So your opinion of the what constitutes an MMORPG doesn’t mean kitten, if you strongly feel that way make an MMORPG that suits that vision. Until then you will have to take whatever companies make and you can either play it or not.
Finally, it is always amusing seeing player idealize Everquest and see them bemoan how current MMORPG lack the soul of the EQ without ever trying to figure why that is. They complain how modern MMO don’t seem to capture EQ and blah blah blah. Let me tell you, the reason why no MMORPG can stand up to EQ is probably because people tend to idealize the past and they expect a other MMO to recapture an idealization (same reason why older folks love to idealize the 50s). Nothing will ever beat the first time you experience something you enjoy.
Yep that’s exactly my problem: Companies do not care about my personal opinion and why should they? I don’t denamd they do, I just wanted to write my frustation down for a change.
On the other hand I have see quite a few MMO games which come much closer to what MMORPGs should be. Yes some of them had VP too but it was a feature – not the point. And yet those game don’t seem to be a commercial fail. Indie projects occasionally proof that innovation can have marketing value and imo the biggest part of the current MMORPG audience is happy with what they have, but they wouldn’t cry if something fresh was created.
And yet Anet rather goes through the agony of balancing flawed gamemechanic ontop of flawed gamemechanics (called new feature), wastes ressources on content that doesn’t really matter/fit by design (turret and minions skills or stealth for example) and all the negative feedback from that smaller part of the community which cares about what they play, because they take it a bit more seriously.All in all it just doesn’t seem impossible, hard or unprofitable to change the genre to me, which is what makes this stalemate so frustrating.
PS. Don’t get me wrong I don’t idealize EQ. I have never even played it but they say it’s origin of what most people call MMORPG today, and this genre simply never had any real innovation since birth, so EQ is also the first and last time innovation happened.
The problem you seem to have it, you are divorcing the money = from the design part.
Games are made to generate a lot of income especially games with AAA budgets. Indies can afford to go all crazy because they are not dealing 60+ million dollar budgets. So their threshold for profitability is extremely low compared to the bigger budget. The reason why most AAA video games seem safe when compared to indies is because they want to appeal to as many people as they can to recoup those high budgets. Indies can try all the risk because losing 10 mil is alot easier than losing 60 mil.
The lack of innovation in big budget projects is not exclusive to mmo, it is common in single player and it is common in terms of story, characterization and acting in most movies, compare a summer blockbuster to the usual movie that wins the oscar for best acting or actor aka a michael bay movie vs oscar nominated movie (not always though).
Personally, guild wars 2 has done a lot to move forward the genre forward but at the same time it took some of the trappings of the previous MMORPG. I don’t like VP but I am not going to pretend I don’t understand why they did it. I was in orr within the first 2 weeks of it release and the biggest complaints after people cheated their way to get full orr within 3 days was “where is the end game?” I got full crafted exotics 7 days after after hitting 80. I don’t think Anet decided to screw over players just for kitten and giggles.
finally, my EQ point was just me saying what I think about the people who love to claim EQ was the best thing ever, you just gave me the chance. They keep confusing nostalgia with reality
As u know im pro. ~Tomonobu Itagaki
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.
(edited by jheryn.8390)
Jeez. These threads are broken records. First we had ascended trinkets/back items and then weapons and then armor. Ascended items have been around for a long time and are not going away. It doesn’t matter at this point what I or anyone else thinks about ascended items. They are here to stay. Get over it. Move on.
My problem is not with ascended items—at all. As far as I’m concerned they can stay forever. My problem is with vertical progression. That can stop at any time. And, it’s more likely to stop if players complain about it. That’s why you see these threads over and over and over.
Vertical progression is not necessary. What is actually necessary is character progression. Ideally, we are invested in our characters and want to see them progress. The amount of identification with a character varies greatly but all players want their character to expand-evolve-advance whatever you want to call it.
Now, this is where you get to the two dominant methods of character progression, vertical and horizontal. Before you go any further, google “horizontal progression” and read the first couple three hits. These will generally contrast it to vertical progression. Horizontal progression, primarily through ability progression, allows players to vastly expand their characters. Vertical progression actually provides nothing but new numbers on a character sheet. In WoW I started at around 10-15k HP. Now I’m around 500k HP with corresponding increases is power and nothing has changed. I die just as fast and mobs take just as long to kill. The emperor of VP has no clothes.
Contrast that to ability progression where you explore, unlock new skills, and discover ways to enhance those skills. This may completely change your gameplay and utility in groups. This is where true build diversity occurs.
No, vertical progression is not necessary in an MMO. Google ESO +"character progression". What they talk about on their video is essentially skill progression of the horizontal variety regardless of what they do with VP. Why? Because it offers true character progression rather than the larger number VP offers.
I did as you requested and looked up horizontal progression and how it corresponds to vertical progression. I actually read through every topic that came up on the first page of Google, and I found this little nugget under the title “Horizontal Progression Options” and how to expand upon them:
Crafting
Allow players to discover legendary crafting recipes that can produce some of the best items, effects and features in the game. The ingredients would be a challenge to find and prepare, but the results could be comparable to running the most difficult content. All crafting systems – mining, blacksmithing, cooking, woodcrafting – would have these legendary recipes, so there is room for great variety in the items that could be created. It would take time and effort to both find the recipes and craft the items they contain.
Sound familiar?
As far as ESO, their idea of skill progression sounds interesting. However, if there are weapons and armor that can be found that augment damage, healing, whatever, and they create new weapons and armor that are better than what is in the game originally, then I believe that falls under vertical progression, so it exists even in your example. Of course, we won’t know that until the game is underway for at least few months, so only time will tell.
I stick to my original statement that vertical progression (either skill or gear) is a necessity in an MMORPG, unless you want there to be a point where people get bored and stop playing.
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563