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Posted by: TJgalon.5012

TJgalon.5012

I guess I am also looking on the bright side of things and that is content added later, kinda like the ls, though i was late this party, I am glad to be here on time for HoT, even got the 100$ package my self, i figure the 50$ exrta was a way on donating to the hours i put in the last few months and had fun, looking forward to more, as I just finish one personal story with my first main, and few other I been playing with, is next. the 2 slots also were helpful to save me like $20 for them.

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Posted by: SnowPumpkin.1809

SnowPumpkin.1809

So I’ve heard veterans are now getting a free veteran character slot if they pre-purchase. That’s at least a little something considering new players get their core game credited back to them. Kind of feels like long time players are getting a slap in the face there, and also punished when they have used an authorized re-seller. I understand the importance of the buy one get one free idea to entice new players, but show your long time players the same kindness by doing something a little more to show you value them, obviously there are a lot of upset people who feel this is very unfair.

(edited by SnowPumpkin.1809)

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

However, I like many others, already own the core game and I don’t want to buy it again so why am I paying for it if I don’t want it exactly?

Whether or not HoT is worth $50 is a personal decision. Currently I am not convinced that it is worth buying at all. That, of course, may change as more information is released.

But, specifically in reference to the quoted section of your post, you are not buying the core game again. You are buying the expansion. In an attempt to draw in new players Anet is providing a bonus for new accounts. This isnt all that much different than what many retailers do to attract new customers.

Attracting new customers is important for Anet and GW2 because it means income. it is important to players because it means income to replace the inevitable drop off from those who leave or run out of things to buy in game. More people to play with, more resources for development, in general a healthier game.

Again, is $50 too much ? That will vary from person to person. Right now, based on what we have seen so far, I would say that $5 is too much. On the other hand I would be willing to pay $100 or more if the expansion addressed my concerns and desires for the game.

That’s their marketing, approach. If you don’t get the core game and HOT for 50$ then you’re really getting the short end of the stick. This is really the only way they could come close to justifying 50$ for HOT. If I didn’t own GW2, I would pay $50 for what they are selling because you get HOT and the core game. The expansion itself is simply not worth 50$ on it’s own. Furthermore I doubt HOT will be the only expansion GW2 ever has, no way will I drop $50 every time an expansion comes out if it is handled like HOT.

At least I’ve taken the time to explain why in my opinion I think they are over charging for HOT. When it does release I may buy it if I see the value in it but based on what I can see right now I wouldn’t spend more than $30 on it. I am being a little generous with that because before HOT was published I think the core game itself was $40 and would occasionally go on sale for $10 during a promotion to attract new players. The core game by itself is worth $40 considering all you get, but as i have listed above in my previous post there’s not enough content (or advertised content) for HOT to carry 50$ on it’s own.

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

However, I like many others, already own the core game and I don’t want to buy it again so why am I paying for it if I don’t want it exactly?

Whether or not HoT is worth $50 is a personal decision. Currently I am not convinced that it is worth buying at all. That, of course, may change as more information is released.

But, specifically in reference to the quoted section of your post, you are not buying the core game again. You are buying the expansion. In an attempt to draw in new players Anet is providing a bonus for new accounts. This isnt all that much different than what many retailers do to attract new customers.

Attracting new customers is important for Anet and GW2 because it means income. it is important to players because it means income to replace the inevitable drop off from those who leave or run out of things to buy in game. More people to play with, more resources for development, in general a healthier game.

Again, is $50 too much ? That will vary from person to person. Right now, based on what we have seen so far, I would say that $5 is too much. On the other hand I would be willing to pay $100 or more if the expansion addressed my concerns and desires for the game.

That’s their marketing, approach. If you don’t get the core game and HOT for 50$ then you’re really getting the short end of the stick. This is really the only way they could come close to justifying 50$ for HOT. If I didn’t own GW2, I would pay $50 for what they are selling because you get HOT and the core game. The expansion itself is simply not worth 50$ on it’s own. Furthermore I doubt HOT will be the only expansion GW2 ever has, no way will I drop $50 every time an expansion comes out if it is handled like HOT.

At least I’ve taken the time to explain why in my opinion I think they are over charging for HOT. When it does release I may buy it if I see the value in it but based on what I can see right now I wouldn’t spend more than $30 on it. I am being a little generous with that because before HOT was published I think the core game itself was $40 and would occasionally go on sale for $10 during a promotion to attract new players. The core game by itself is worth $40 considering all you get, but as i have listed above in my previous post there’s not enough content (or advertised content) for HOT to carry 50$ on it’s own.

The thing is that for some people $50 is under-priced. They would have paid more. For some people $50 is just right. It is the limit of what they were going to pay anyway. For others it is too much. For those people HoT will go on sale at some point.

A merchant wants to be able to reach as much of their potential target customer base as possible. They will start something at the upper limit of what some will pay and lower prices over time in order to draw in customers not willing to pay prime pricing for first access. The sales generally need to be delayed from launch to avoid convincing those willing to pay prime prices that waiting a few days or weeks will save them a significant amount of money. The key really is in finding that sweet spot of initial prime pricing and time delay for discounting.

Ultimately, if a product (any product, not just a game expansion) is priced beyond what one feels it is worth….one should hold off on buying it until the pricing comes down.

There is nothing wrong with a merchant attempting to maximize sales revenue, nor with a customer waiting for a sale.

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Posted by: MastaNeenja.1537

MastaNeenja.1537

The thing is that for some people $50 is under-priced. They would have paid more. For some people $50 is just right. It is the limit of what they were going to pay anyway. For others it is too much. For those people HoT will go on sale at some point.

A merchant wants to be able to reach as much of their potential target customer base as possible. They will start something at the upper limit of what some will pay and lower prices over time in order to draw in customers not willing to pay prime pricing for first access. The sales generally need to be delayed from launch to avoid convincing those willing to pay prime prices that waiting a few days or weeks will save them a significant amount of money. The key really is in finding that sweet spot of initial prime pricing and time delay for discounting.

Ultimately, if a product (any product, not just a game expansion) is priced beyond what one feels it is worth….one should hold off on buying it until the pricing comes down.

There is nothing wrong with a merchant attempting to maximize sales revenue, nor with a customer waiting for a sale.

Yeah that’s just business, they aren’t making this game out of the kindness of their hearts they need to feed the kids and pay the bills.

This is also a pricing feed back thread, and I wanted to constructively give my feed back on the pricing, as I encourage every one to do.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

HOT isn’t a full game so why pay full price for a partial game?

You must never buy expansions when they’re released with that reasoning. Ever.

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Posted by: JohannaOmO.2831

JohannaOmO.2831

I don’t really feel like this expansion will be worth $50, it doesn’t sound like it adds enough to warrant that price tag. I paid $20 for this game when it was on sale on Amazon, which I know is a lot cheaper than some people paid. However even with that $20, if I then had to pay $50 for the expansion, that leaves me paying $70. The newcomers who would be buying for the first time get it all for $50? Sounds like a lot of people who play the game already will be getting screwed. What a great way to acquire new customers and screw the veterans.

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Posted by: Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

Can we just buy the expansion pack at a reduced price without the Standard Copy of the game? A good chunk of us already bought the standard copy of the game. Including me at Day one.

Honestly, I’d rather not have to pay the same price I had at day one for another copy of a game I already have and it’s expansion.

And if not… can the people whom previously owned the game get something else?

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Posted by: Turamarth.3248

Turamarth.3248

It would be the same price without the core game.
You can find more info here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/HoT-Price-Feedback-Base-game-included-merged

Veteran players get an extra character slot.

Brandar – Kodash [DE]
[SPQR]

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Posted by: Hyper Cutter.9376

Hyper Cutter.9376

The “bundle” is just Anet trying to pretend they’re not charging $50 for something worth, at best, half that.

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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

The extra character slot only applies if you pre-purchase it. It was the absolute least they could do for this forced bundle to be acceptable in any way. That offer is gone the day HoT is released. So you can’t even wait to see if it ends up being worth the price.

Probably best to wait till shortly after release. I’m expecting a quick price drop, because in all the months of hype they’ve yet to show anywhere near $50 worth of expansion content. If it turns out to really be just a “season pass” for LS chapter 3, they’re not likely to be selling many copies at that price.

Footsteps Of War [FoW] | Yak’s Bend
Seer Of The Divine | Sarina Starlight | Tireasa | Caedyra

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Posted by: Snow.2048

Snow.2048

Just don’t prepurchase, wait until you actually know enough to make an informed decision. If its not worth the price to you once you learned enough, just wait for it to go on sale.

This is true for all digital content (or anything where you are not familiar/have built trust with the company but digital content tends to burn people more often in my personal experience)

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Posted by: cyberjanet.3258

cyberjanet.3258

ArenaNet has shown they are not interested in loyal players. They want to churn through new players. They expect everyone to leave after six months (most of the loyal players from Guild Wars in our guild did) and never come back, and who cares about them anyway.

I have no reason to pay full price for a game I already have. I don’t want another character slot as I have no interest in the revenant. I don’t even have an interest in half of the characters I have. My husband has three unused character slots. I do have an interest in a guild hall, but it’s not worth the price of another game. There are plenty of other games to spend the money on.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

The opinions in this thread are amazing to me. Really amazing.

The game was on sale several times already for $10. The game is worth less because it’s OLDER. It’s harder for new people to start.

If you buy the new WoW expansion, you pay $50 and you’re still paying a monthly fee, and you only have to buy the current expansion and WoW. Every single other expansion comes for free.

Guild Wars 2 must compete with other MMOs and they can’t do that by charging full price for every single expansion. What happens when there are two expansions? Three? The barrier to new players entering the game keeps going up.

EQ does the same thing. You get the game you get all the previous expansions.

I’m not even sure why this is such an issue.

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Posted by: dsslive.8473

dsslive.8473

For the millionth time, the price of the expansion IS $50 , the base game coming free for new buyers doesn’t at all affect the price.

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Posted by: Monk Tank.5897

Monk Tank.5897

Fifty dollars is nothing to a game with no monthly fee. My five EvE accounts cost me 75 dollars a month (unless i plex them, which is no problem with 5 guys). I just cant see where people have a hard time saying fifty dollars is too much for a game you can play as much as you want with what again? No Monthly Fee. Sure you can pay as much as you want in the gem store, but you can also farm your face off and buy the stuff in the store..for free!

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Posted by: Korsakoff.7805

Korsakoff.7805

I preordered the coregame as soon as it was announced, as I was looking for a game that was similar to the other known one, but without the montly sub. A company that would focus more on the players, and less on the profit.

This is an attempt to get new players into the game, sure, it’s a great pack for new players, it really is, for existing players, it’s a scam.

This wiki entry alone
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns
is telling us that this is not worth €50, give us an option to simply upgrade to the expansion for €25.

That’s a bit overpriced as well, but still manageable.

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Posted by: Snow.2048

Snow.2048

Fifty dollars is nothing to a game with no monthly fee. My five EvE accounts cost me 75 dollars a month (unless i plex them, which is no problem with 5 guys). I just cant see where people have a hard time saying fifty dollars is too much for a game you can play as much as you want with what again? No Monthly Fee. Sure you can pay as much as you want in the gem store, but you can also farm your face off and buy the stuff in the store..for free!

The gem store funds everything thus far, its not “free” because even if you farm it, someone else has bought the gems. Just like plexing doesn’t make eve free, you’re working ingame for someone else to pay for your game. Paying a poorer content per value amount (which the expansion may or may not be, which won’t be clear until later so why even buy it now?) than the first time around simply because you find that you got a great deal the first time isn’t really a good way of doing things, it encourages further production of the lower content per value because why would you make more if people will pay the same for less.

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Posted by: Darkness.9732

Darkness.9732

For now mate don’ t pre purchase the game.
Many people are waiting…when they realease the content that we might enjoy.
If you want my personal opinion..so far 50$ are a lot for the few content they have announced.
And i bet that price will go down fast. So just wait mate. There is still no release date…why pre purchasing?^

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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

The opinions in this thread are amazing to me. Really amazing.

The game was on sale several times already for $10. The game is worth less because it’s OLDER. It’s harder for new people to start.

If you buy the new WoW expansion, you pay $50 and you’re still paying a monthly fee, and you only have to buy the current expansion and WoW. Every single other expansion comes for free.

Guild Wars 2 must compete with other MMOs and they can’t do that by charging full price for every single expansion. What happens when there are two expansions? Three? The barrier to new players entering the game keeps going up.

EQ does the same thing. You get the game you get all the previous expansions.

I’m not even sure why this is such an issue.

I think most of us realize that it’s going to be cheaper after 3 years. But some cost (seems Anet/NC values GW2 core at about $10) is absorbed into the price of HoT. So it’s basically a $40 expansion that’s forcibly bundled with a $10 core game. It’s not really the best way to handle it. The bonus char slot for vets shouldn’t be limited to pre-purchasers only, or they should just sell a HoT-only package for $10 less. But that’s not even the issue for a lot of us.

The bigger issue is the impression Anet is giving that HoT isn’t really worth that $40(+$10). Bundle or not, I don’t mind paying $40-50 for an expansion, as long as it’s worth $40-50. But you can’t just say it’s fine because WoW/etc has a similar price, since we don’t know how much content we’re getting compared to a WoW expansion. And that is the problem. What Anet has to show so far doesn’t live up to the price.

Footsteps Of War [FoW] | Yak’s Bend
Seer Of The Divine | Sarina Starlight | Tireasa | Caedyra

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Posted by: soakman.7539

soakman.7539

The opinions in this thread are amazing to me. Really amazing.

The game was on sale several times already for $10. The game is worth less because it’s OLDER. It’s harder for new people to start.

If you buy the new WoW expansion, you pay $50 and you’re still paying a monthly fee, and you only have to buy the current expansion and WoW. Every single other expansion comes for free.

Guild Wars 2 must compete with other MMOs and they can’t do that by charging full price for every single expansion. What happens when there are two expansions? Three? The barrier to new players entering the game keeps going up.

EQ does the same thing. You get the game you get all the previous expansions.

I’m not even sure why this is such an issue.

I think most of us realize that it’s going to be cheaper after 3 years. But some cost (seems Anet/NC values GW2 core at about $10) is absorbed into the price of HoT. So it’s basically a $40 expansion that’s forcibly bundled with a $10 core game. It’s not really the best way to handle it. The bonus char slot for vets shouldn’t be limited to pre-purchasers only, or they should just sell a HoT-only package for $10 less. But that’s not even the issue for a lot of us.

The bigger issue is the impression Anet is giving that HoT isn’t really worth that $40(+$10). Bundle or not, I don’t mind paying $40-50 for an expansion, as long as it’s worth $40-50. But you can’t just say it’s fine because WoW/etc has a similar price, since we don’t know how much content we’re getting compared to a WoW expansion. And that is the problem. What Anet has to show so far doesn’t live up to the price.

No. It is a fifty dollar game with a free core game. They are doing this so the new community won’t be split into the “haves” & “have-nots” simply because of pricing.

Stop saying that the core game is $10. It is not. It is free with purchase.

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

What Anet has to show so far doesn’t live up to the price.

Is it really what Arenanet have show so far that doesnt live up to the price is it more what they havent shown people decided doesnt live up to the price even if its still unknown?

Let me explain what I mean…. What has Arenanet shown so far?

Masteries. A whole new progression system. It includes tracks for the new content and and this is key for the old content While every Expansion generally provides a progression system its generally limited to the new content released with that expansion. Not Gw2, its progression system spans both old a new content. So its safe to say progression in HoT exceeds progression in most expansions.

Elite specializations + Revenant. Elite specializations bring with them 1 new weapon, 1 new healing skill, 4 new utilities, 1 elite skill and 1 new trait line and 1 new mechanic. All in all this makes every elite specialization about 1/5 of a full profession ergo HoT essentially contains exactly the equivalent of 3 professions. Generally Expansions contain only 1 or 2… we get 3, once again HoT exceeds what other Expansions generally have.

Guild Halls. Do I really need to go through this? Most expansions that brought guild halls to MMOs provided castle size guild halls, HoT provides an entire MAP that can be changed at will with no penalty once unlocked. Again exceeds what most other Expansions did.

PvP what we get in sPvP and WvW isnt really bigger then what other expansions do but it isnt smaller either. Well at least compared with those expansions that actually release new PvP content, plenty of examples of expansions that didnt contain any PvP content. That being said I wouldnt say this exceeds expectation but that it rather meets them.

Quality of life.
HoT will also redesign Guild chat, Guild Currencies, Guild missions, guild claiming in WvW, the trait system and PvP Queuing system (already happened but was dont for HoT), introduce PvP Leagues, Map reward bonuses, Fractal redesign, fractal leader boards, revised WvW Scoring. Certainly not the first Expansion to include a quality of life update to an existent system but personally I’ve never see one that includes so many updates to so many systems all at once. Once again as expansion go this is bigger then what you generally get with an expansion.

That all that was revealed so far and none of it is really underwhelming like people seem to claim. Based on what we know so far, this expansion is definitely not smaller then what you generally get, quite the opposite, its pretty bigger on all accounts.

That being said there of course is a concern that it will be lacking in terms of new maps.. thats possible especially since Colin more then once said that they’re not focusing on making a huge number of maps but rather making quality maps. So yeah its possible it may lack in that respect however we dont know anything in that regard so we cant really judge. Besides the number of maps on its own is meaningless. It needs to be taken in context with content. I mean having a ton of empty maps is not better then having a few content rich maps. We have to wait and see when they get around to unveiling what content HoT will have in that regard.

Lets stop claiming that what we know so far isnt worth the price because its far from true. What we know so far exceeds in scope of what other expansion of similar or slightly less price offer.

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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

No. It is a fifty dollar game with a free core game. They are doing this so the new community won’t be split into the “haves” & “have-nots” simply because of pricing.

Stop saying that the core game is $10. It is not. It is free with purchase.

The concept is commonly called “there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch”

There is no “free” when it comes to business. Everything has a cost/value. Anything that appears to be free has its cost calculated and absorbed elsewhere.

If the game were really free, Anet would have no issues giving all of us existing players a core game key to gift or make an extra account with.

Footsteps Of War [FoW] | Yak’s Bend
Seer Of The Divine | Sarina Starlight | Tireasa | Caedyra

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

I’m not sure Galen Grey. I’m a fan of gw2 and pre-purchased right away because I knew I would buy it whatever they gave us. That said, they didn’t gave us that much information about the expansion so far. It could be small or big and we just don’t have enough info to know that.

Masteries : It could be like you said. But from what I saw and heard, it take around 1 hours to level one mastery. Which mean that in less than 40 hours you could unlock everything and poof just like that no more progression. If you add all the experience bonus, most people will finish that in 2 weeks/1 month.

Guild Halls : Yes it’s big, but it can very easily end up only to be a crafting/bank spot for the guild. We don’t really know if all those build will be really useful/interesting to use.

PvP : I’m actually hype by the league, but stronghold is a terrible disappointement. What if you only get 1 new map for 1 new (bad imo) mode. That’s very very low amount of content.

QoL : Those are nice, but we were getting them for free with the Living World so… What is important is content.

Fractal : This could be nice, but will they add new islands? new bosses? Will the instability be nice or just like the instability we have now we’ll choose the easiest and forget about 99% of them. We could just level up to 100 under a month and then do the same fractal over and over like we do now.

4 Maps : It could be more than 4 maps, we don’t really know. But it seem to be only 4 maps. Even there. It could be 4 maps of 3 complete layers that actually have the content of 8-12 maps. Or it could be 4 maps, with just some small portion in the other 2 layers and really be like 5 maps at best.

So yes, people can claim that what we know so far isn,t worth the price because it’s not right now. They didn’t announced everything and everything they announced, they never went deep except for the Elite specialization.

Right now, what they announced isn,t worth 50$, but it could because I think they only gave us a small sip of each content.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

The concept is commonly called “there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch”

There is no “free” when it comes to business. Everything has a cost/value. Anything that appears to be free has its cost calculated and absorbed elsewhere.

If the game were really free, Anet would have no issues giving all of us existing players a core game key to gift or make an extra account with.

The core game isn’t free. But Anet is ready to give it free to players that buy their expansion because it’s marketing and it will give them more revenue by doing so. But it’s a really bad PR.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

Is it really what Arenanet have show so far that doesnt live up to the price is it more what they havent shown people decided doesnt live up to the price even if its still unknown?

Let me explain what I mean…. What has Arenanet shown so far?

PvP what we get in sPvP and WvW isnt really bigger then what other expansions do but it isnt smaller either. Well at least compared with those expansions that actually release new PvP content, plenty of examples of expansions that didnt contain any PvP content. That being said I wouldnt say this exceeds expectation but that it rather meets them.

Quality of life.
HoT will also redesign Guild chat, Guild Currencies, Guild missions, guild claiming in WvW, the trait system and PvP Queuing system (already happened but was dont for HoT), introduce PvP Leagues, Map reward bonuses, Fractal redesign, fractal leader boards, revised WvW Scoring. Certainly not the first Expansion to include a quality of life update to an existent system but personally I’ve never see one that includes so many updates to so many systems all at once. Once again as expansion go this is bigger then what you generally get with an expansion.

That all that was revealed so far and none of it is really underwhelming like people seem to claim. Based on what we know so far, this expansion is definitely not smaller then what you generally get, quite the opposite, its pretty bigger on all accounts.

These aren’t even really part of HoT. QoL, PvP, and WvW changes are for everyone. QoL updates are one of the major things that the gemstore is intended to fund. PvP and WvW have seen little changes since release. Updates to these two parts of the game have been needed for a long time. It should have been done already.

That is one of the core problems with HoT’s value. The fact that its feature list is heavily padded with things that aren’t HoT exclusives, or that have been pushed back just so it would seem to be a HoT feature.

Adding a new class and new specs is great. Although, the specs aren’t really that big of an addition. It does give something new to play with. But what HoT seems to be lacking is actual playable content. Not doing the same old things on a new character, but new things to do. They have shown very little of it.

Footsteps Of War [FoW] | Yak’s Bend
Seer Of The Divine | Sarina Starlight | Tireasa | Caedyra

(edited by mrstealth.6701)

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

No. It is a fifty dollar game with a free core game. They are doing this so the new community won’t be split into the “haves” & “have-nots” simply because of pricing.

Stop saying that the core game is $10. It is not. It is free with purchase.

The concept is commonly called “there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch”

There is no “free” when it comes to business. Everything has a cost/value. Anything that appears to be free has its cost calculated and absorbed elsewhere.

If the game were really free, Anet would have no issues giving all of us existing players a core game key to gift or make an extra account with.

Its called opportunity cost. Arenanet forgo the profit selling a base copy of the game would get them in “the hope” that will lead to great expansion sales.

No because you’re not considering that if Anet would do what you suggest most of those keys would end up on sale on sites like G2A for $10 which in turn would actually destroy the benefit Arenanet get for giving away the core game for free. Dont forget anyone interested in having a 2nd account already bought one when the game was $10. Besides Anet give the option of a free account to everyone already, you want another account for free? apply the HoT code on a new account, you like everyone else will get your free account. Only like this you are not able to resell it.

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Posted by: dallasdirty.8524

dallasdirty.8524

This pretty much sucks-I purchased both GW1 and 2 at the beginning and have always been pleased with the way ArenaNet did stuff but this is a crock of kitten…
I paid $59 for the game a couple years ago and now I have to pay again? I just purchased the game for my son which comes with both-cheaper than I paid originally…Why the hell would I pay over $100 total as a veteran player and the newby pays $49. Way to stick it to those who have stuck with you ArenaNet

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Posted by: Therasohl.5917

Therasohl.5917

I’ve owned and played this game since release day, and I’ve never felt the urge to post on these forums until now. I can’t believe Anet’s lack of a response to the community’s outcry on this.

“We included the core game as a free bonus to make it easier for new players to get into it.”

That’s fantastic incentive for new players- but where’s the incentive for existing players? What about me, as someone who has supported this game literally since day one? The price has obviously been bumped up as a result of this “free” core game- I feel like this is akin to paying taxes for stuff that I really don’t care about- I’m spending extra money so Anet can throw free copies at new players- that’s an incredibly frustrating notion. I’ve loved this game since day one but nothing ruins a good vibe better than a blatant cash grab. Until discounted “expansion only” versions or satisfactory incentives for veteran players are announced, I personally will not be purchasing this expansion- and I’m honestly very glad to see that I’m not the only one.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

The price is not being bumped up for veteran players. Companies offering discounts to new customers is common practice. Veteran players are not entitled to special discounts/bonuses. It’s not a requirement but many people think it is because they got used to it when companies started doing that for pre-orders and now they expect it.

If people want the same offer as the new players then apply the expansion key to a new account. You’ll start off exactly in the same position as a new player would.

(edited by Ayrilana.1396)

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

Is it really what Arenanet have show so far that doesnt live up to the price is it more what they havent shown people decided doesnt live up to the price even if its still unknown?

Let me explain what I mean…. What has Arenanet shown so far?

PvP what we get in sPvP and WvW isnt really bigger then what other expansions do but it isnt smaller either. Well at least compared with those expansions that actually release new PvP content, plenty of examples of expansions that didnt contain any PvP content. That being said I wouldnt say this exceeds expectation but that it rather meets them.

Quality of life.
HoT will also redesign Guild chat, Guild Currencies, Guild missions, guild claiming in WvW, the trait system and PvP Queuing system (already happened but was dont for HoT), introduce PvP Leagues, Map reward bonuses, Fractal redesign, fractal leader boards, revised WvW Scoring. Certainly not the first Expansion to include a quality of life update to an existent system but personally I’ve never see one that includes so many updates to so many systems all at once. Once again as expansion go this is bigger then what you generally get with an expansion.

That all that was revealed so far and none of it is really underwhelming like people seem to claim. Based on what we know so far, this expansion is definitely not smaller then what you generally get, quite the opposite, its pretty bigger on all accounts.

These aren’t even really part of HoT. QoL, PvP, and WvW changes are for everyone. QoL updates are one of the major things that the gemstore is intended to fund. PvP and WvW have seen little changes since release. Updates to these two parts of the game have been needed for a long time. It should have been done already.

That is one of the core problems with HoT’s value. The fact that its feature list is heavily padded with things that aren’t HoT exclusives, or that have been pushed back just so it would seem to be a HoT feature.

Let me quote what a wise man once said

There is no “free” when it comes to business

yes they are bundled for free with the core game but because they have no other choice. Obviously just cause they’re giving them away for free it doesnt mean it didnt cost them anything to develop them and its pretty obvious they developed them to support HoT. Trait streamline wasnt needed if there was no Specalization etc..

Anet arent crazy, they’re not going to create 2 versions of client just so they can make sure to charge everyone for every single line of code they wrote for HoT. So stuff thats glue like the trait revamp has to go in the core client for free. That doesnt mean they dont deserve to get paid for the work they put into that.

As for updates for WvW and PvP, updates have been needed for a long time? what the updates they go already dont count? new sPvP maps dont count? EotM doesnt count? map revamp in WvW didnt count? WvW progression system in WvW didnt count? All those things generally come with paid expansions lets not use what Anet gave us for free as an excuse why they shouldnt charge us for more of their work shall we?

Why is that such a bad thing? Should Anet not be paid unless content is exclusive? They still did the work which means they still paid the cost and its done for our benefit. Air conditioning was not invented exclusively for my car but does that mean just cause someone can get a ride and enjoy air conditioning for free I shouldn’t get to pay for it if I buy a new car that includes AC?

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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

Its called opportunity cost. Arenanet forgo the profit selling a base copy of the game would get them in “the hope” that will lead to great expansion sales.

No because you’re not considering that if Anet would do what you suggest most of those keys would end up on sale on sites like G2A for $10 which in turn would actually destroy the benefit Arenanet get for giving away the core game for free. Dont forget anyone interested in having a 2nd account already bought one when the game was $10. Besides Anet give the option of a free account to everyone already, you want another account for free? apply the HoT code on a new account, you like everyone else will get your free account. Only like this you are not able to resell it.

Making all existing players that buy HoT also pay for the core game is Anet covering their “free” game with opportunity and social cost. It’s an excuse to charge more to existing customers, knowing that they aren’t really going to get that many new ones. It’s an expansion, the primary market is existing customers. Not new ones. Anyone interested in having a GW2 account at all would most most likely bought it during one of the $10 sales.

Giving all existing players that key would still be opportunity cost, as it is still getting them more customers they can market HoT/gemstore items to. They’d likely make even more money if you gave/sold that key to someone else, because that person is more likely to spend money on it than we would for a 2nd account. Since another $10 sale isn’t likely for quite some time, that’s one of the few ways they’ll pick up any new customers that aren’t willing to pay $50 for HoT.

Footsteps Of War [FoW] | Yak’s Bend
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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Didn’t we have this discussion enough times already? Their policy is clear and it will affect all future expansions as well, it’s their pricing model to not add extra barriers for new players and it’s something most MMORPGs do anyway.

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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

yes they are bundled for free with the core game but because they have no other choice. Obviously just cause they’re giving them away for free it doesnt mean it didnt cost them anything to develop them and its pretty obvious they developed them to support HoT. Trait streamline wasnt needed if there was no Specalization etc..

Anet arent crazy, they’re not going to create 2 versions of client just so they can make sure to charge everyone for every single line of code they wrote for HoT. So stuff thats glue like the trait revamp has to go in the core client for free. That doesnt mean they dont deserve to get paid for the work they put into that.

As for updates for WvW and PvP, updates have been needed for a long time? what the updates they go already dont count? new sPvP maps dont count? EotM doesnt count? map revamp in WvW didnt count? WvW progression system in WvW didnt count? All those things generally come with paid expansions lets not use what Anet gave us for free as an excuse why they shouldnt charge us for more of their work shall we?

Why is that such a bad thing? Should Anet not be paid unless content is exclusive? They still did the work which means they still paid the cost and its done for our benefit. Air conditioning was not invented exclusively for my car but does that mean just cause someone can get a ride and enjoy air conditioning for free I shouldn’t get to pay for it if I buy a new car that includes AC?

The cost of these things isn’t really in the expansion price, that’s the purpose of the gemstore. They’ve continued putting new items in that store, while content output has stopped. Now they’re bundling that year’s worth of already paid for updates and trying to charge an upfront fee for it. They’ve remained adamant that the gemstore business model was very successful for them, so why do they now need need that plus kitten sale to give us content?

And they’ll continue raking in gemstore money while they roll out the rest of LS3/HoT story, remaining legendaries, and who knows what else. All while acting like that was part of HoT’s price. They’re double dipping into their customers’ wallets.

What HoT needs to be is $50 content drop on its own, at release day (not content over time), and without having stopped all existing updates for a year while still taking in the money that was supposed to be supporting it.

Footsteps Of War [FoW] | Yak’s Bend
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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

Didn’t we have this discussion enough times already? Their policy is clear and it will affect all future expansions as well, it’s their pricing model to not add extra barriers for new players and it’s something most MMORPGs do anyway.

I think it’s actually a decent pricing model, though I’d rather see it sold unbundled at least till sometime after release. Expansions are mostly marketed to existing customers anyway. And they really shouldn’t limit the bonus char slot for existing players to pre-purchase.

[edit]
And since everyone does keep comparing to WoW. It should be noted that the latest expansion, Warlords of Draenor, is sold for $50 and still requires the $20 base game. WoW’s model is that with each new expansion, all previous expansions are added to the core game for all players.

Footsteps Of War [FoW] | Yak’s Bend
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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

I’m not sure Galen Grey. I’m a fan of gw2 and pre-purchased right away because I knew I would buy it whatever they gave us. That said, they didn’t gave us that much information about the expansion so far. It could be small or big and we just don’t have enough info to know that.

Masteries : It could be like you said. But from what I saw and heard, it take around 1 hours to level one mastery. Which mean that in less than 40 hours you could unlock everything and poof just like that no more progression. If you add all the experience bonus, most people will finish that in 2 weeks/1 month.

It takes 1hr to level up LEVEL 1 of a mastery. But LeveL 1 requires 381k XP, level 6 requires 8m which means every level takes twice as long as the previous one. all things being equal it will take approx 128 hours to level a single mastery line to max. There are 8 lines for a total of 1024 hours. based on say 20 hrs a week play time thats like a year.

Guild Halls : Yes it’s big, but it can very easily end up only to be a crafting/bank spot for the guild. We don’t really know if all those build will be really useful/interesting to use.

and a pvp arena at least. They also said it will tie in with challenging group content somehow as well as other features they couldnt talk about. But lets forget about what we dont know. if the guild hall is being used just as a social hub, how is that different then other guildhalls in other MMOs? still would have the same scope but with a bigger environment which still means its a larger offering right?

PvP : I’m actually hype by the league, but stronghold is a terrible disappointement. What if you only get 1 new map for 1 new (bad imo) mode. That’s very very low amount of content.

Dont want to name games but lets just say 2 recent Expansions of different MMOs didnt even include a single map much less a new map, leagues, strong hold and a big WvW maps. Yes if you dont like Stronghold its a bummer, I am not a PvP person myself so all of this is not high in my priority list but just cause you dont like something it doesnt mean its invalidated and much less does it mean the offered value is less. Unfortunately games arent a la carte menu’s you cannot simply nitpick the features you like and as such the price they ask has to reflect their totality, its only fair.

QoL : Those are nice, but we were getting them for free with the Living World so… What is important is content.

No they were not part of the living world update, they’re a standalone update to prepare the game for HoT deployment. So much so that if you go to the living world release pages you will not see the release documented there. regardless they’re arguably more important then content itself in that said content depends on them.

Fractal : This could be nice, but will they add new islands? new bosses? Will the
instability be nice or just like the instability we have now we’ll choose the easiest and forget about 99% of them. We could just level up to 100 under a month and then do the same fractal over and over like we do now.

Thats a good question so far we dont know. An interview kind of indirectly implied we’re not going to get more. For an unrelated question an Anet employee said what was announced in the blog post is what we’re getting. Now its possible the reply was intended for that specific question but well it may also imply there will be no new fractals too.

4 Maps : It could be more than 4 maps, we don’t really know. But it seem to be only 4 maps. Even there. It could be 4 maps of 3 complete layers that actually have the content of 8-12 maps. Or it could be 4 maps, with just some small portion in the other 2 layers and really be like 5 maps at best.

Problem with data mining is it essentially tells you the minimums and even then they’re subject to change. For example its actually at least 6 maps because on the Guild hall reveal it was already stated that the guildhalls themselves are maps in the open world that you have to conquer before an instance version is unlocked for your guild. And its not the size of the maps, i mean new maps are great but at the end of the day people play content not maps. That being said I am primarly an explorer and something I love from Gw2 is there are hidden secrets to discover, hope that holds true for the new maps as well.

So yes, people can claim that what we know so far isn,t worth the price because it’s not right now. They didn’t announced everything and everything they announced, they never went deep except for the Elite specialization.

Right now, what they announced isn,t worth 50$, but it could because I think they only gave us a small sip of each content.

Thats alway true for every Expansion though. I mean you never get a breakdown of everything because that would kill the anticipation. Every expansion leaves some details for the players to discover why does that have to be an issue here?

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Posted by: Jimson.5168

Jimson.5168

Didn’t we have this discussion enough times already? Their policy is clear and it will affect all future expansions as well, it’s their pricing model to not add extra barriers for new players and it’s something most MMORPGs do anyway.

Indeed. You might force the student to attend the class but you can’t force them to listen to the lecture.

I expect a lot for my $50. Free bug fixes, updates, PS/LS content, code maintenance, and stable server side functionality until the next expac comes out. I am paying not only for a product but also prepaying for a service contract to support that product. Even with that said, I suddenly stopped playing the game at all just recently. Not sure why… and I find myself browsing around the forum just so I don’t have to play. Have I wasted my money on the expansion? Possibly… but if I decide to come back, I will have HoT to mess around with.

Most of the complaining seems to be about new players getting the core game for free and veterans not getting an extra core game key to do whatever with. Nothing I can say will dissuade people thinking that they’ve been cheated out of getting free stuff. If you met the ordering time frame, you got your free compensatory stuff or you got your refund. If you did nothing but cry about it on the forum, no one can help you.

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Posted by: Orochimaru.4730

Orochimaru.4730

What Anet has to show so far doesn’t live up to the price.

Let me explain what I mean…. What has Arenanet shown so far?

Masteries.

Elite specializations + Revenant.

Guild Halls.

PvP what we get in sPvP and WvW isnt really bigger then what other expansions do but it isnt smaller either.

Quality of life.

When I buy a game I dont buy it for stuff that should already be part of the game.

Masteries, Specializations, Guild Halls, QoL.
All these things I expect to be included in the game without charge.

I pay for playability and content. I dont pay for stuff that should have already been in the game.

Changes to traits etc are all part of balancing the game, you should not be paying for balance, you pay for content.

So far HoT looks more like a balance update and fixes than a real expansion.

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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

I expect a lot for my $50. Free bug fixes, updates, PS/LS content, code maintenance, and stable server side functionality until the next expac comes out. I am paying not only for a product but also prepaying for a service contract to support that product.

Those are all things funded by the gemstore. If HoT’s price is paying for these things, then the gemstore can be removed.

I expect $50 to get me an expansion that includes $50 worth of content on release day, and to continue being supported afterwards by the gemstore. That is their business model, after all.

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

Making all existing players that buy HoT also pay for the core game is Anet covering their “free” game with opportunity and social cost. It’s an excuse to charge more to existing customers, knowing that they aren’t really going to get that many new ones. It’s an expansion, the primary market is existing customers. Not new ones. Anyone interested in having a GW2 account at all would most most likely bought it during one of the $10 sales.

no its not and with all due respect doesnt make sense. Thats like going to a super market and you find your favourite bar of chocolate that usually costs $10 (yeah its super premium chocolate) only today its selling for $22 has an extra bar attached with it and a big colourful sticker stating that for a limited time buying one bar will get you one for free. ($10 for the normal bar, $10 for the extra bar, $2 for the sticker) Why would it not make sense? cause opportunity cost isnt something you can offloaded, that wouldnt make it an opportunity cost at all. when your super market gives you a free bar of chocolate with the chocolate bar you buy the cost is incured by the manufacturer / supplier with the hopes that its going to lure in new customers who cannot resist the allure of the free chocolate bar (who can?) and then discover how this bar of chocolate is actually the best thing since chocolate They do this even though what the manufacturer / supplier are giving up isnt simple potential profit but actual costs associated with the product. Digital goods dont have such costs. So why it is so hard to believe they can actually give away a copy for free?

But lets assume your theory is right. lets assume for a second that indeed they feel their expansion isnt worth $50 but for some reason have to sell it for $50 and thus decide to bundle stuff with it to artificially make it worth $50. Why on earth would they choose the free game? I am sure any person at Anet can point at that and say you know what? Veterans arent going suddenly decide our expansion is worth $50 just because we’re giving them a free core game they cannot use, why dont we intead give them 10 dyes or 4 bank slots or even a couple of free outfits? If they needed an excuse to charge more why would they pick the core game? Surely you can see its like the worst choice possible!

Giving all existing players that key would still be opportunity cost, as it is still getting them more customers they can market HoT/gemstore items to. They’d likely make even more money if you gave/sold that key to someone else, because that person is more likely to spend money on it than we would for a 2nd account. Since another $10 sale isn’t likely for quite some time, that’s one of the few ways they’ll pick up any new customers that aren’t willing to pay $50 for HoT.

No its the opposite of opportunity cost, its like take away my opportunity cost. Why?
let assume 1/2 the people who get the free key sell it for $10. lets say that amounts to 1m accounts for sale at $10. That will attract up to 1 million people who decide Gw2+HoT is worthy (they didnt buy up till now) but $50 is too much so much so they decide to go for the cheaper $10 option potentially figuring out that with the core game and potentially free updates they can enjoy the game up until the next expansion and then get HoT for free. Now a person who feels the need to save $40 you think is one thats likely to spend a lot on the cash shop? now obviously not all will sell and obviously not everyone falls in this category but what you’re suggesting could potentially cost Anet about $50M in lost profits. How is that a good idea?

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

And since everyone does keep comparing to WoW. It should be noted that the latest expansion, Warlords of Draenor, is sold for $50 and still requires the $20 base game. WoW’s model is that with each new expansion, all previous expansions are added to the core game for all players.

actually no, up until recently WoW model was you need to buy WoW and every single expansion if you want to get the latest expansion.

They recently decided thats a bad idea so now they made it you can buy wow for a low price and they give you all previous expansion for free.

Anet just decided they’ll go straight for the next evolution thats all. And think about it is what Blizzard do really the best course of action?

if you’re a new player would you buy WoW and WoD together? or simply fork $20 for WoW, get to max level and then buy WoD once you complete all the content from the core game and all the expansions you get for free?

in case of blizzard its not a big deal because well the bulk of the income is in the subs anyway but imagine if there were no sub fees.

This model encourages people to buy the cheaper option as that will last a long while. What are the chances people would get bored before getting to the point were they need WoD? lets assume 50% stay. That means out of every 1m player you loose $15M compared with if you had to give core game and previous expansions for free with WoD.

Thats exactly why what Anet is doing is a smart move.

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

I expect a lot for my $50. Free bug fixes, updates, PS/LS content, code maintenance, and stable server side functionality until the next expac comes out. I am paying not only for a product but also prepaying for a service contract to support that product.

Those are all things funded by the gemstore. If HoT’s price is paying for these things, then the gemstore can be removed.

I expect $50 to get me an expansion that includes $50 worth of content on release day, and to continue being supported afterwards by the gemstore. That is their business model, after all.

Check out Blizzards yearly financial report.s

approximately they make 1.5b from subs some 350m off box sales and they spend about $200m on all their online business so strictly speaking WoW doesnt need a sub to cover the costs does that mean they should remove it?

This isnt a charity, no business strives to simply break even. You’re offered a service and they try to monetize it in different ways. arguments like hey free updates are covered by the gem store are as true as arguments that expansions in a sub game should be free or games with a box sale dont need subs. They’re potentially all true but miss the crucial point every business has to maximize their profits.

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Posted by: Galen Grey.4709

Galen Grey.4709

What Anet has to show so far doesn’t live up to the price.

Let me explain what I mean…. What has Arenanet shown so far?

Masteries.

Elite specializations + Revenant.

Guild Halls.

PvP what we get in sPvP and WvW isnt really bigger then what other expansions do but it isnt smaller either.

Quality of life.

When I buy a game I dont buy it for stuff that should already be part of the game.

Masteries, Specializations, Guild Halls, QoL.
All these things I expect to be included in the game without charge.

I pay for playability and content. I dont pay for stuff that should have already been in the game.

Changes to traits etc are all part of balancing the game, you should not be paying for balance, you pay for content.

So far HoT looks more like a balance update and fixes than a real expansion.

so what you’re saying is if they never update balance and never implemented the wallet / the other great QOL updates we got you’d be perfectly happy as long as you got new content to play?

Also I always love statements like that should have been included at launch. How do you decide what should or shouldnt be included in the game? and more importantly if the game lacked 3 years worth of updates how did you justify buying it 3 years ago? I dont know about you but what I bought 3 years ago was great enough for the price and I would certainly not think anet should have waited till now to release Gw2 so they could finish completing what should have been included in the game. I am saying this because people love saying this should have been included from day one but generally fail to realize including that on day one means delaying the game so that feature could be developed.

as for balancing, I disagree both with the statement that trait changes are merely balancing chances, they’re not, they’re much more so much so people in general really hated the previous iteration on Traits and that was not because Class A is now OP or UP. and secondly with such updates being free or not. If they dont get paid that whats going to happen is what happens in most other F2P MMOs, you’ll never see a single QOL update or balance change much less an iteration on a whole game system like traits. Why would you? it costs them money and they get nothing out of it. Its not like the trait system at release didnt work after all.

all in all that would make for a much poorer game and what for? to save $10 over a 3 year period?

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Posted by: Jimson.5168

Jimson.5168

Oh, my! We’ve strayed off topic to discuss business models. I don’t care what source of funds pays for what piece of the game. I paid the price to get the product. I don’t expect it all to be there or even working properly on day 1 of release (excuse me for being realistic).

Either buy it or not. Stop complaining that you think it’s a bad deal and just decline to accept the offer.

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

What Anet has to show so far doesn’t live up to the price.

Let me explain what I mean…. What has Arenanet shown so far?

Masteries.

Elite specializations + Revenant.

Guild Halls.

PvP what we get in sPvP and WvW isnt really bigger then what other expansions do but it isnt smaller either.

Quality of life.

When I buy a game I dont buy it for stuff that should already be part of the game.

Masteries, Specializations, Guild Halls, QoL.
All these things I expect to be included in the game without charge.

I pay for playability and content. I dont pay for stuff that should have already been in the game.

Changes to traits etc are all part of balancing the game, you should not be paying for balance, you pay for content.

So far HoT looks more like a balance update and fixes than a real expansion.

Then don’t buy it until more info is released about it. Why kitten when you just have no idea? Just wait for the info, and then ask yourself if it’s worth it.

Also your trait point is invalid, they are adding an entire new trait line+weapon+skill set+proffesion mechanic for each proffesion+ adding an entire new one. That is not simply balancing. That is the biggest class update any expansion has ever brought to any mmo i know of. But seeing how you talk about the elite specs makes me think you haven’t even looked at them properly.

Btw you bought the original game fully aware that most of these things that “should have all ready been there” weren’t in the game. So no, you can’t come and say, this should be already in there. Because the original game clearly stated they wouldn’t have guild halls, and elite specs and masteries weren’t ever mentioned. So if you bought the original game expecting these, you didn’t make an informed decision based on the info, and that’s on you.

So maybe you should take a lesson from this and not buy HoT until you are certain you want to actually play it.

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

No its the opposite of opportunity cost, its like take away my opportunity cost. Why?
let assume 1/2 the people who get the free key sell it for $10. lets say that amounts to 1m accounts for sale at $10. That will attract up to 1 million people who decide Gw2+HoT is worthy (they didnt buy up till now) but $50 is too much so much so they decide to go for the cheaper $10 option potentially figuring out that with the core game and potentially free updates they can enjoy the game up until the next expansion and then get HoT for free. Now a person who feels the need to save $40 you think is one thats likely to spend a lot on the cash shop? now obviously not all will sell and obviously not everyone falls in this category but what you’re suggesting could potentially cost Anet about $50M in lost profits. How is that a good idea?

There’s a huge difference between someone not being interested in dropping $50 on the game, and someone picking it up for $10 and spending some cash in the gemstore. It’s a lot easier to get someone to spend money on something they already like, versus trying to get them to pay $50 to try something new. And if they like it that much, they’re likely to still buy HoT. It’s a bigger risk/opportunity cost, but it’s one going into a market that Anet has already been exhausting themselves.

Most people that wanted to buy GW2 for $10 have already done so by now anyway. Anet spent the first half of 2015 tapping that market, and now they aren’t going to be touching it themselves for a good while. Having the game available somewhere for that price is still going to attract the stragglers that aren’t going to pay more.

The extra key is also a bit of incentive for existing players to buy HoT. Being able to get a friend/relative into the core game or get back a few bucks on your purchase would probably pick up a few extra sales for them.

It’s just up to them as to much they’re willing to risk there. And it’s really the least of the issues at hand. The expansion being worth its price in content is a lot more important than how its bundled with the core game or other bonuses. The biggest parts of the bundling issue were the lack of any bonus to existing players and marketing the core game as a prerequisite, both of which Anet resolved to an acceptable degree.

[edit]
My original statement about giving out separate core game keys was only an example showing why the core game isn’t actually free. Which was in reply to someone claiming it was really free.

It’s certainly something they could have done, but I doubt anyone here has access to enough data to show which decision would have really been best.

Footsteps Of War [FoW] | Yak’s Bend
Seer Of The Divine | Sarina Starlight | Tireasa | Caedyra

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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

I don’t expect it all to be there or even working properly on day 1 of release (excuse me for being realistic).

This is the single worst problem in the games industry right now. And it’s something that will just keep getting worse as developers push the limits of what they can get away with.

Why would any developer actually work to get a functional, complete product to market, when people will gladly pay for something half finished and broken?

Even worse is the fact that many of these people act like those trying to be advocates for consumers are doing something wrong. Holding developers to a standard of releasing complete, working products is better for all consumers.

Here’s a nice video on pre-order culture (warning: NSFW due to language)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4JCFONptk

Footsteps Of War [FoW] | Yak’s Bend
Seer Of The Divine | Sarina Starlight | Tireasa | Caedyra

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Posted by: Jimson.5168

Jimson.5168

I don’t expect it all to be there or even working properly on day 1 of release (excuse me for being realistic).

This is the single worst problem in the games industry right now. And it’s something that will just keep getting worse as developers push the limits of what they can get away with.

Why would any developer actually work to get a functional, complete product to market, when people will gladly pay for something half finished and broken?

Even worse is the fact that many of these people act like those trying to be advocates for consumers are doing something wrong. Holding developers to a standard of releasing complete, working products is better for all consumers.

Here’s a nice video on pre-order culture (warning: NSFW due to language)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4JCFONptk

You might demand finished working products when you buy them but I still maintain it is unrealistic to ever expect it to happen. Now excuse me while I take my car back to the dealer… it was recalled due a manufacturing defect. (And no, I don’t like it either… but pointing out an expectation of “good enough” products not being so does not mean I support this trend). The only way I could protest this activity is to refuse to buy anything… again, just being realistic.

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Posted by: mrstealth.6701

mrstealth.6701

The only way I could protest this activity is to refuse to buy anything… again, just being realistic.

You can refuse to buy it until you are informed enough to make a decision about whether it’s worth it. You probably didn’t buy your car before test driving it, and you likely wouldn’t have went through with the purchase if it had obvious flaws preventing it from functioning. Of course, a car is a much more major and costly purchase. But what reason do you really have to take the risk of early pre-orders?

If you feel the need to pre-order a game, there is really no reason to do so until the last possible moment. You’ll spend the same amount, get the same incentives, and might just be more informed about your purchase.

Flaws do happen, and most things can’t realistically be expected to be perfect. But we should at least expect them to functional and complete as advertised. A company knowingly releasing a product that does not meet that rather low expectation should be condemned for doing so. If your game is not functional on launch day, delay it.

The constant push to pre-order, incentives (held back content) for doing so, and review embargoes have too quickly become business as usual, and are far too accepted. Just a few years ago, you could at least find reviews of a game that were out soon enough to still get a pre-order in. Or cancel a pre-order if the game turned out bad.

Today, review copies are often not even given to journalists until release day or very shortly before. And they are commonly under embargoes that prevent reviews being published till after release. They actively try to prevent consumers from being informed about pre-purchases. A developer trying to hide reviews/info about their game, while asking money for it up front, should be an immediate red flag for any consumer.

There are too many devs banking on pre-orders, because they know that after reviews are out they won’t be able to sell copies. By the time people realize how bad things are, they’re likely stuck with the game. If they’re lucky, they might still be within the refund limits of digital stores like Steam or Origin, or have a console version they can at return/trade in.

People continuing to fall for these tactics only encourage them to be more common. If consumers refuse to pay up front for a product they can’t even read a review about, companies will be forced to change their policies to allow more informed decisions. This would be a big win for all consumers.

Footsteps Of War [FoW] | Yak’s Bend
Seer Of The Divine | Sarina Starlight | Tireasa | Caedyra

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Posted by: Jimson.5168

Jimson.5168

<blink> I seem to notice most people want “new” and “shiny”. They really don’t seem to care about actually checking something out before they buy. When they find the tarnish on their “new and shiny” thing, they start crying and demanding their money back. Did someone lead them astray or is it all self-delusion? Who really caused the problem you describe, the seller or the buyer? Not sure I could answer that. Not sure anyone could.