Guild Wars 2

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

So where is the mastery gating again? Where do you need to grind for masteries?

The moment you venture into VB you’re confronted with all kinds of mushroom. Speed, adrenaline, bouncing. And interacting with them gives you a pop-up telling you you can’t use that content. That’s mastery gating.

You can get most of the “important” ones before you even leave Verdant Brink, if of course you follow the story and do a couple of the event chains of the outposts. Without the need to repeat content (aka grind)

maddoctor.2738:

I think players just forgot how GW2 was pre-HoT. For example I read a lot of complaints about Mastery points and how they are “grindy”.

First complaint: HoT story is gated behind mastery points. GW2 pre-HoT story was gated behind levels. And you need a LOT of experience points to progress your story. New characters can level up with tomes, but masteries are Account Bound. I don’t see how HoT story is more grindy than GW2 Personal Story.

Second complaint: You can’t reach places in HoT without first leveling masteries. In GW2 pre-HoT you can’t reach places if you are low level… same thing as the above really. I remember when players went to Frostgorge from Wayfarer’s and saw the high level mobs after they added the “guide”. Fun times.

Is the mastery system really a grind? Then the entire 1-80 leveling process of GW2 is a much worse grind. I’m sure after a couple of years players “forgot” how leveling works in the game, using their tomes, but if you think about it the Mastery system is not “grindy” compared to the regular leveling process.

That’s kind of like apples to oranges in a way, because you are deliberately excluding very important differences between the two, mainly vertical character progression.

Completing the story is the means to level your character and each level your character gains gives you considerably more power and new skills which allow you to influence the world in different ways. That structure of character development and growth is fundamental to RPGs; it’s like the entire point of the game.

By the time you complete the core content, you have a level 80 character that has considerably more power and abilities than a level 1. This is why the process of leveling is often enjoyable and rewarding.

This exists to some extent in HoT via elite specializations and their development, but that’s independent of the masteries. The masteries themselves are somewhat circular; you grind out content to level masteries which give you access to more content and masteries. Masteries are purely environmental and mostly restricted to HoT. At the end of the cycle, your character is relatively left unchanged in their ability to influence the world of Tyria via any development of increased power or ability.

As I said, elite specializations alleviate this issue somewhat, but depending on old your character is and how much content you have completed, you don’t necessarily need any of the masteries to get the skill points needed to max out an elite.

Making gliding available in central tyria also helped this as well.

But it’s still a night and day difference. There is no vertical progression in items in HoT like there where was in Tyria from levels 1 – 80. There is, in fact, very little incentive to acquire any of the items at all in HoT.

maddoctor.2738:

pepsis.5384:

maddoctor.2738:

pepsis.5384:

“Levelling there is something that just happens while you’re still discovering the world”

Of course when you discover than same poi or vista for the 5th (or 10th) time it’s such a natural feeling that you get while re-discovering the world. Natural leveling comes the first, and maybe the second time, a third if you stress it enough, from then on there isn’t much to discover anymore, you’ve already seen everything.

Maybe Im just not as burned out as you people. Im currently leveling up my 4th alt, he is at lvl55 with no books used. I’m just moving around following the story, grabbing hearts and hero points along the way, collecting mats etc. Feels very natural and if the vista is boring you just skip it and still get credit for it. Veterans who played it all 50 times over or people who simply have way too much spare time may disagree with me.

And why can’t you do the same in HoT? You can move around and follow the story, follow the events, gather mats, mastery insights and hero points in the process. What’s so unnatural in HoT zones that is in core tyria?

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

So where is the mastery gating again? Where do you need to grind for masteries?

The moment you venture into VB you’re confronted with all kinds of mushroom. Speed, adrenaline, bouncing. And interacting with them gives you a pop-up telling you you can’t use that content. That’s mastery gating.

No it’s not. A gate limits your progress. Those aren’t gates.

MadRabbit.3179:

But it’s still a night and day difference. There is no vertical progression in items in HoT like there where was in Tyria from levels 1 – 80. There is, in fact, very little incentive to acquire any of the items at all in HoT.

I always thought that having no vertical progression was one of the best features of HoT. The argument was that HoT story and HoT maps are gated behind a mastery grind, I gave similar “features” in pre-HoT GW2 that were also gating players and compared the two “grinds”. Yes they aren’t the same but someone asked to compare HoT to pre-HoT GW2, I tried my best to compare them.

I’m sorry but the whole argument “GW2 pre-HoT was far better and less grindy than HoT” which is used by many posters isn’t very accurate nor objective one either.

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

And searching for an event and if you actually need it for a collection, praying that is on, is so much better? Ever tried doing a legendary precursor collection?

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

pepsis.5384:

maddoctor.2738:

pepsis.5384:

“Levelling there is something that just happens while you’re still discovering the world”

Of course when you discover than same poi or vista for the 5th (or 10th) time it’s such a natural feeling that you get while re-discovering the world. Natural leveling comes the first, and maybe the second time, a third if you stress it enough, from then on there isn’t much to discover anymore, you’ve already seen everything.

Maybe Im just not as burned out as you people. Im currently leveling up my 4th alt, he is at lvl55 with no books used. I’m just moving around following the story, grabbing hearts and hero points along the way, collecting mats etc. Feels very natural and if the vista is boring you just skip it and still get credit for it. Veterans who played it all 50 times over or people who simply have way too much spare time may disagree with me.

And why can’t you do the same in HoT? You can move around and follow the story, follow the events, gather mats, mastery insights and hero points in the process. What’s so unnatural in HoT zones that is in core tyria?

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

1, you don’t have to do the meta, you can just play the game as you do in tyria- dip into events as you want.
2. or you could have zones like in other game expansions, where you play through the new zones once, do the quest line once, then repeat dailies while ignoring the old zones that are dead because of scaling.

maddoctor.2738:

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

And searching for an event and if you actually need it for a collection, praying that is on, is so much better? Ever tried doing a legendary precursor collection?

Sure, i’m doing all of them.

Obtena.7952:

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

So where is the mastery gating again? Where do you need to grind for masteries?

The moment you venture into VB you’re confronted with all kinds of mushroom. Speed, adrenaline, bouncing. And interacting with them gives you a pop-up telling you you can’t use that content. That’s mastery gating.

No it’s not. A gate limits your progress. Those aren’t gates.

That’s not the definition of a gate. A gate limits access to something, not necessarily progress.

maddoctor.2738:

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

And searching for an event and if you actually need it for a collection, praying that is on, is so much better? Ever tried doing a legendary precursor collection?

That’s absolutely not better. I did the tier 1 collection for Dawn. It was horrible, easily one of the most boring things I did in this game.

Another mark against HoT.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

pepsis.5384:

maddoctor.2738:

pepsis.5384:

“Levelling there is something that just happens while you’re still discovering the world”

Of course when you discover than same poi or vista for the 5th (or 10th) time it’s such a natural feeling that you get while re-discovering the world. Natural leveling comes the first, and maybe the second time, a third if you stress it enough, from then on there isn’t much to discover anymore, you’ve already seen everything.

Maybe Im just not as burned out as you people. Im currently leveling up my 4th alt, he is at lvl55 with no books used. I’m just moving around following the story, grabbing hearts and hero points along the way, collecting mats etc. Feels very natural and if the vista is boring you just skip it and still get credit for it. Veterans who played it all 50 times over or people who simply have way too much spare time may disagree with me.

And why can’t you do the same in HoT? You can move around and follow the story, follow the events, gather mats, mastery insights and hero points in the process. What’s so unnatural in HoT zones that is in core tyria?

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

1, you don’t have to do the meta, you can just play the game as you do in tyria- dip into events as you want.
2. or you could have zones like in other game expansions, where you play through the new zones once, do the quest line once, then repeat dailies while ignoring the old zones that are dead because of scaling.

Or we could have been presented with a respectable number of new zones instead of the pittance we got.

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

And searching for an event and if you actually need it for a collection, praying that is on, is so much better? Ever tried doing a legendary precursor collection?

That’s absolutely not better. I did the tier 1 collection for Dawn. It was horrible, easily one of the most boring things I did in this game.

Another mark against HoT.

Because a feature years in the making is the fault of the expansion. Legendary Collections are independent of HoT with the exception of the actual HoT Legendaries.

Sykper.6583:

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

And searching for an event and if you actually need it for a collection, praying that is on, is so much better? Ever tried doing a legendary precursor collection?

That’s absolutely not better. I did the tier 1 collection for Dawn. It was horrible, easily one of the most boring things I did in this game.

Another mark against HoT.

Because a feature years in the making is the fault of the expansion. Legendary Collections are independent of HoT with the exception of the actual HoT Legendaries.

Except they aren’t independent, because one must purchase HoT to access Masteries. Not connected to magus Falls != not connected to the XPac.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Sykper.6583:

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

And searching for an event and if you actually need it for a collection, praying that is on, is so much better? Ever tried doing a legendary precursor collection?

That’s absolutely not better. I did the tier 1 collection for Dawn. It was horrible, easily one of the most boring things I did in this game.

Another mark against HoT.

Because a feature years in the making is the fault of the expansion. Legendary Collections are independent of HoT with the exception of the actual HoT Legendaries.

Except they aren’t independent, because one must purchase HoT to access Masteries. Not connected to magus Falls != not connected to the XPac.

This is a fine hair to split. You’re factually right. But I strongly suspect the precursor hunt we received was being worked on before it was going to be delivered as part of the expansion.

For example people blame the dungeon nerf on the expansion. I say it’s due to free to play.

A lot of people demanded an expansion and Anet took what they were working on and made it into an expansion. It’s entirely likely that even without Heart of Thorns, the precursor crafting we got would be the precursor crafting we were going to get anyway.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Sykper.6583:

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

And searching for an event and if you actually need it for a collection, praying that is on, is so much better? Ever tried doing a legendary precursor collection?

That’s absolutely not better. I did the tier 1 collection for Dawn. It was horrible, easily one of the most boring things I did in this game.

Another mark against HoT.

Because a feature years in the making is the fault of the expansion. Legendary Collections are independent of HoT with the exception of the actual HoT Legendaries.

Except they aren’t independent, because one must purchase HoT to access Masteries. Not connected to magus Falls != not connected to the XPac.

This is a fine hair to split. You’re factually right. But I strongly suspect the precursor hunt we received was being worked on before it was going to be delivered as part of the expansion.

For example people blame the dungeon nerf on the expansion. I say it’s due to free to play.

A lot of people demanded an expansion and Anet took what they were working on and made it into an expansion. It’s entirely likely that even without Heart of Thorns, the precursor crafting we got would be the precursor crafting we were going to get anyway.

I am one of the people who blame the dungeon nerf on HoT, raids to be precise. Free to play came in handy as a sidewalk explanation, I gladly give that.

A content that is designed for the top 10% (pulling that out of thin air) of players needs massive carrots to let the other 90% at least try it and give the designers ammunition for the shareholder meeting. Running a company with shareholders is based on numbers and passing the evaluation of the board of directors and the shareholder meeting.

Nobody cares where these numbers come from if they are presented well:
“Our company has designed this feature called raid. It was visited by X% of all our customers at the first week of it going online. Good numbers, ladeis and getleman.”
A CEO is as much an actor and hype train driver as he is a business man. You can expect that a large majority of shareholders have never set foot in a GW2 raid or just in the form of a very carefully constructed attempt with safety breaks everywhere.
So they see that people have raided for some weeks and are happy with the results until the next meeting where the situation maybe is totally different and the managers have to beg for their jobs because raids lack sustainability by nature. Or the hype train manages to jump onto new tracks and the raid issue is kept in the closed basket with the other lemons. Some shareholders don´t even know they are shareholders and the NcSoft share is just one in a large list of shares and they trust their voices to banks and companies who may or maybe not like the numbers and sell/keep their shares. Everyone who has a combined fixed money/shares with his bank trusts the bank to invest on the stock market for him. You could basically hold shares of a wool manufacture in the darkest backwater corner of India and not even know it.

Nerfing content on the other hand is probably not spoken on in such a meeting if it is basically for free or does not lose massive amount of fixed costs.

So if the shareholder is not a fan, he will probably never see the whole product and the question if this and that makes sense never is asked.

Sird.4536:

If you think HoT is grindy then none of you have played a Korean mmo

I play TERA, a Korean MMORPG. It’s very gear-grindy, but its grindwalls are soft grindwalls. You can ignore them with enough combat skill. I’ve seen a few players take on the toughest hard-mode dungeons using only third-rate endgame gear.

Heart of Thorns grindwalls are hard grindwalls. You absolutely cannot access certain areas without grinding. You don’t even get the satisfaction of getting your butt kicked if you try.

maddoctor.2738:

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

So where is the mastery gating again? Where do you need to grind for masteries?

The moment you venture into VB you’re confronted with all kinds of mushroom. Speed, adrenaline, bouncing. And interacting with them gives you a pop-up telling you you can’t use that content. That’s mastery gating.

You can get most of the “important” ones before you even leave Verdant Brink, if of course you follow the story and do a couple of the event chains of the outposts. Without the need to repeat content (aka grind)

How many event chains (or amount of events) do you consider as " a couple"? You need for most level 1 masteries around 1,000,000 xp, and receive without boosters around 20-25k in Verdant Brink. So maybe for you as a hardcore(?) player doing ~50 events per mastery is just a couple but that’s not valid for everyone. And unlike Tyria’s PS xp reward where the xp gain was massive compared to a normal event or completeing heart quests, HoT’s story xp reward isn’t that much more than successfully comleting an event.

Call me strange but leveling more than half of my 9 characters the normal way through Tyria was for me less annoying than earning HoT-zone mastery levels. Obviously playing a few character through VB + a few events helped the overall cause, instead of only using one “main character”. Yet, to be fair, I assume this difference may be simply because I prefer the old quest or heart style to the event-only maps from Orr onwards.

It takes a 1-2 months of daily play to max the masteries for all your characters. How is this a grind?

ProtoGunner.4953:

It takes a 1-2 months of daily play to max the masteries for all your characters. How is this a grind?

A month or two… when you’re grinding them. Otherwise it will take a lot more.

What is grind to you? I was farming for Astralaria and doing DS the same time. Stacked up all possible XP boosters and did about 1 level per DS run. Since every crap in this game gives XP why do you need to ‘grind’? Alternate maps, do some Central Tyria and it just becomes pretty natural. After all, you do something in this game. Interpret everything as grind if you want. I don’t.

ProtoGunner.4953:

What is grind to you? I was farming for Astralaria and doing DS the same time. Stacked up all possible XP boosters and did about 1 level per DS run. Since every crap in this game gives XP why do you need to ‘grind’? Alternate maps, do some Central Tyria and it just becomes pretty natural. After all, you do something in this game. Interpret everything as grind if you want. I don’t.

And just how many DS runs did you do? An event cycle that boring and repetitive feels like a grind to me about halfway through the first run. The monotonous blend of combat sounds of dozens of players ripping into endless streams of indistinguishable monsters during the zergy escorts lulled me to sleep. Literally. I had to shake the cobwebs from my head and go do something else. I ended up exploring the place, behind the 3 fronts.

I find it a grind because you have nowhere to go except those 4 maps, and no decent options for xp other than to play the meta events. And when I say 4 maps, I’m being generous. Dragon’s Stand is a big joke. Exploring it takes no time at all and I found it to be easier than Orr. The only reason I didn’t complete it in just a single run of the event was the timer, but lucky for me I only missed some hero points. An hour in EotM fixed that. Also pretty boring, but I didn’t need to check my watch to get into that and it had some mildly interesting asides when I ran off to fight stragglers from other servers.

To compare, I maxed my Tyrian masteries on a new character. It started at level 1. I played it until it was 80 and then I started on the masteries. This character didn’t repeat a thing. I had maxed the masteries when I was about 80% done with world completion.

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

And searching for an event and if you actually need it for a collection, praying that is on, is so much better? Ever tried doing a legendary precursor collection?

That’s absolutely not better. I did the tier 1 collection for Dawn. It was horrible, easily one of the most boring things I did in this game.

Another mark against HoT.

But if the old maps were on a schedule, like HoT maps, there wouldn’t be a problem with those collections if you need specific events. I still think it was a huge mistake to remove Orr Temple events from the daily schedule then add so many collection achievements on those. You might hate the 2-hour timers of HoT but the <uncertain amount of time> timer on Orr Temples is much much worse.

maddoctor.2738:

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

There are only 4 zones, with events on a constant, unchanging schedule. This gets old very fast.

And searching for an event and if you actually need it for a collection, praying that is on, is so much better? Ever tried doing a legendary precursor collection?

That’s absolutely not better. I did the tier 1 collection for Dawn. It was horrible, easily one of the most boring things I did in this game.

Another mark against HoT.

But if the old maps were on a schedule, like HoT maps, there wouldn’t be a problem with those collections if you need specific events. I still think it was a huge mistake to remove Orr Temple events from the daily schedule then add so many collection achievements on those. You might hate the 2-hour timers of HoT but the <uncertain amount of time> timer on Orr Temples is much much worse.

Of course there would be a problem. I would have to adjust my playing times to that schedule. That is actually my #1 complaint with HoT, with some distance. The schedules are what kills HoT for me.

The problem with those precursor hunt events isn’t that they’re not on a schedule, the problem is that they’re shopping lists of completely trivial tasks that you can’t even do when you want to do them. A schedule would make it more predictable, but they would still be shopping lists of completely trivial tasks that you can’t even do when you want to do them.

ProtoGunner.4953:

It takes a 1-2 months of daily play to max the masteries for all your characters. How is this a grind?

1-2 months of long play sessions maybe.

morrolan.9608:

ProtoGunner.4953:

It takes a 1-2 months of daily play to max the masteries for all your characters. How is this a grind?

1-2 months of long play sessions maybe.

I haven’t maxed out because I don’t have enough achievement points for the last mastery, but I found that even only playing a half our here and there, only completing a tiny handful of metas, I was able to max out my masteries.

What stopped me wasnt’ experience, it was the mastery points themselves. I always ended up with too much experience and not enough mastery points.

morrolan.9608:

ProtoGunner.4953:

It takes a 1-2 months of daily play to max the masteries for all your characters. How is this a grind?

1-2 months of long play sessions maybe.

That’s true, it was actually the only thing I did after work, between 4-6h/day.

If you don’t want to grind out legendary armor or weapons… you don’t like pvp or wvw… what is there left to do?

morrolan.9608:

ProtoGunner.4953:

It takes a 1-2 months of daily play to max the masteries for all your characters. How is this a grind?

1-2 months of long play sessions maybe.

Not really. I maxed out my masteries soon after launch so I don’t know if this is still the fastest method. Google maguuma timer and you will get a list of nice sites that tell you when DS is going to start. Log in 5 mins before and taxi to a map and for only 2 hours you will get a good amount of xp. I’m sure even casuals can manage 2 hours a day, and if you want to really push it then AB starts straight after DS.

It’s about 6-8 DS metas for leyline gliding alone. With 2 hours of ds per day, it’s a week. For a single mastery, not even a whole tier. And yes, dedicating 2 hours a day, day after day, to a specific activity you do mostly for mastery xp is definitely a grind, and not something casuals are likely to do, unless they have a ton of free time.

I used one DS a day as an example for the super casual player. If you are that casual you have no right in my eye to complain about grind. If you do 2 a day (4h30 including the time before reset) than you will max out Leyline in, according to your math, 4 days and add any boosters and it will be faster. I can agree that just doing one map over and over for xp is boring but that is not a grind and if a casual does have free time then they aren’t casuals.

I have said this before and I will keep saying it. The core game allowed players to get whatever they wanted so cheap and fast that any kind of challenge or progression you have to work for causes uproar.

Doing one map over and over is a grind. Especially if the map itself consists of doing the same thing several times and it’s not very interesting to begin with.

I think the problem here is people who demand absolutely everything. You do not need leyline gliding, you can play the game and never even use it, its not even usable in 99.9% of the world and not even needed in the places it does exist.

People who want 100% completion should expect some grind, casuals (actual casuals not the forum users who pretend they are) can play the game with very little grind and any grind they participate in is entirely self imposed.

Thats the problem with the forums, people here demand 100% completion but try to pretend they are arguing to help casuals – we see through you.

Torolan.5816:

Vayne.8563:

…people blame the dungeon nerf on the expansion. I say it’s due to free to play.

I am one of the people who blame the dungeon nerf on HoT, raids to be precise. Free to play came in handy as a sidewalk explanation, I gladly give that.

I strongly suspect ANet has multiple reasons for most of what they do. Was the dungeon nerf about creating an incentive to buy HoT? Given that the reason stated (on these boards for a change) by John Smith was to encourage people to move to raids and fractals and away from dungeons, that’s kind of a no-brainer. Did it also serve to limit the gold intake of PFF players? Absolutely, and I doubt that escaped ANet’s attention, either..

Coulter.2315:

I think the problem here is people who demand absolutely everything. You do not need leyline gliding, you can play the game and never even use it, its not even usable in 99.9% of the world and not even needed in the places it does exist.

People who want 100% completion should expect some grind, casuals (actual casuals not the forum users who pretend they are) can play the game with very little grind and any grind they participate in is entirely self imposed.

Thats the problem with the forums, people here demand 100% completion but try to pretend they are arguing to help casuals – we see through you.

So, casuals by definition don’t want to be completionists? Not that I disagree that grind in GW2 is to a great extent self-imposed, but casual can mean time-limited as well as don’t-give-a-kitten. Combine time-limited with a desire to max out progression and the societal trend in the first world toward instant gratification. Presto, complaints about grind.

Now, I’m not one to complain about grind in an MMO. That would be kind of like complaining about having to kick the ball a lot during a football match. However, I’m about as casual as it gets (inclination, not time-limited), and I do get the feeling that HoT offers less to do, and less of a feeling of accomplishment for my play preferences than core did. Sure, core is still there, but its getting on 3.5 years old, and that can be old even for casuals.

So we can conclude something from that then I suppose?
-Anet stated through Mr. Smith that they not only do not support dungeons anymore, they nerf them for raids and fractals. Classic shoehorning tactic in my mind, with the audacity to even proclaim this here.

I still fail to see the long term wisdom in this move, especially with raids not being more than a band aid probably. Maybe Anet finally gave in to the raid gamer mentality because they blew it with the horrible ls2 and had to bring some good numbers to stay afloat?

@Coulter
I usually don´t share but can respect your arguments, but I think you´re wrong here. Everyone who posts on a forum is a hardcore player? I have some posts on a soccer forum but have not visited it for years to post something, i would be a hardcore soccer fan with your idea but i wasn´t in a stadium or watched a full game for years.

And even if that really were the case, the marks who have no clue would be vastly outnumbers by the smarks who at least read forums and blogs. Only because companies and governments want to believe that people who look for and create information on the internet are still stupid and clueless, it is not necessarily true in some cases.
I know this sounds a little bit like tinfoil hatery,, but whistleblowing came a long way around the goverment and companies to bite them between the legs.^^

Manasa Devi.7958:

Obtena.7952:

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

So where is the mastery gating again? Where do you need to grind for masteries?

The moment you venture into VB you’re confronted with all kinds of mushroom. Speed, adrenaline, bouncing. And interacting with them gives you a pop-up telling you you can’t use that content. That’s mastery gating.

No it’s not. A gate limits your progress. Those aren’t gates.

That’s not the definition of a gate. A gate limits access to something, not necessarily progress.

Then having gates in MMO’s isn’t really a problem in the first place because you can define almost everything as a gate, including:

1. Levels
2. Not starting out with gold
3. Not knowing how to play
4. Not having instance access to all content

You’re complaint is quite ridiculous in the context you define ‘gates’; ONLY complain about the gates you encounter in HoT, and not any of MANY MORE you had to overcome in Core? You’re arguments just aren’t logical.

Obtena.7952:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Obtena.7952:

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

So where is the mastery gating again? Where do you need to grind for masteries?

The moment you venture into VB you’re confronted with all kinds of mushroom. Speed, adrenaline, bouncing. And interacting with them gives you a pop-up telling you you can’t use that content. That’s mastery gating.

No it’s not. A gate limits your progress. Those aren’t gates.

That’s not the definition of a gate. A gate limits access to something, not necessarily progress.

Then having gates in MMO’s isn’t really a problem in the first place because you can define almost everything as a gate, including:

1. Levels
2. Not starting out with gold
3. Not knowing how to play
4. Not having instance access to all content

You’re complaint is quite ridiculous in the context you define ‘gates’; ONLY complain about the gates you encounter in HoT, and not any of MANY MORE you had to overcome in Core? You’re arguments just aren’t logical.

The issue with gates like levels, is as you pass them, your character gets stronger, you get more abilities, it actually has a reward for completing the gate, and the gate can be completed in a reasonable amount of time.

Masteries, on the other hand… it’s a grind for a skill that you barely use. The grind takes a VERY long time, and the content is NOT engaging at all. In core tyria you had a BUNCH of maps to level on, in HOT you have…. 4. That’s the problem, it’s not the grind, it’s the fact you feel the grind.

Maximillian Greil.1965:

Obtena.7952:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Obtena.7952:

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

So where is the mastery gating again? Where do you need to grind for masteries?

The moment you venture into VB you’re confronted with all kinds of mushroom. Speed, adrenaline, bouncing. And interacting with them gives you a pop-up telling you you can’t use that content. That’s mastery gating.

No it’s not. A gate limits your progress. Those aren’t gates.

That’s not the definition of a gate. A gate limits access to something, not necessarily progress.

Then having gates in MMO’s isn’t really a problem in the first place because you can define almost everything as a gate, including:

1. Levels
2. Not starting out with gold
3. Not knowing how to play
4. Not having instance access to all content

You’re complaint is quite ridiculous in the context you define ‘gates’; ONLY complain about the gates you encounter in HoT, and not any of MANY MORE you had to overcome in Core? You’re arguments just aren’t logical.

The issue with gates like levels, is as you pass them, your character gets stronger, you get more abilities, it actually has a reward for completing the gate, and the gate can be completed in a reasonable amount of time.

Masteries, on the other hand… it’s a grind for a skill that you barely use. The grind takes a VERY long time, and the content is NOT engaging at all. In core tyria you had a BUNCH of maps to level on, in HOT you have…. 4. That’s the problem, it’s not the grind, it’s the fact you feel the grind.

Engaging or not, the definition the poster uses for a gate makes Masteries the same kind of gate as anything else that limits your progress, like levels, lacking gold, or basically ANYTHING you have to play to earn or learn about the game. If the poster had a more reasonable definition for a gate, he wouldn’t look so ridiculous using it as a premise to complain about GW2.

Outside of WvW being on hiatus, Pre-HoT you would:

- Grind Dungeons daily for liquid gold, running the same quick paths in the same identical movements due to ease of content not truly forcing you to use anything outside your DPS rotation.
- Grind World Boss Train, effective still for Rares and by approximation, Ectos
- Grind Silverwastes (We do it now still)
- Fractals were longer, albeit harder and some could argue it might have been better back then since you would spend more time in them.

And somehow HoT was MORE grindy than Core? Give me a break. There’s more variety in HoT PvE content, however many times you want to repeat it, than there was in Core, and in fact it layers on top of those old painful grinds.

If you ever participated in the first three options yet complain about HoT ‘Grind’ I believe you might be a hypocrite.

Obtena.7952:

Maximillian Greil.1965:

Obtena.7952:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Obtena.7952:

Manasa Devi.7958:

maddoctor.2738:

So where is the mastery gating again? Where do you need to grind for masteries?

The moment you venture into VB you’re confronted with all kinds of mushroom. Speed, adrenaline, bouncing. And interacting with them gives you a pop-up telling you you can’t use that content. That’s mastery gating.

No it’s not. A gate limits your progress. Those aren’t gates.

That’s not the definition of a gate. A gate limits access to something, not necessarily progress.

Then having gates in MMO’s isn’t really a problem in the first place because you can define almost everything as a gate, including:

1. Levels
2. Not starting out with gold
3. Not knowing how to play
4. Not having instance access to all content

You’re complaint is quite ridiculous in the context you define ‘gates’; ONLY complain about the gates you encounter in HoT, and not any of MANY MORE you had to overcome in Core? You’re arguments just aren’t logical.

The issue with gates like levels, is as you pass them, your character gets stronger, you get more abilities, it actually has a reward for completing the gate, and the gate can be completed in a reasonable amount of time.

Masteries, on the other hand… it’s a grind for a skill that you barely use. The grind takes a VERY long time, and the content is NOT engaging at all. In core tyria you had a BUNCH of maps to level on, in HOT you have…. 4. That’s the problem, it’s not the grind, it’s the fact you feel the grind.

Engaging or not, the definition the poster uses for a gate makes Masteries the same kind of gate as anything else that limits your progress, like levels, lacking gold, or basically ANYTHING you have to play to earn or learn about the game. If the poster had a more reasonable definition for a gate, he wouldn’t look so ridiculous using it as a premise to complain about GW2.

The term gating is only thrown at something if what it take to surmount the gating mechanism is something significant. No one will scream: “I’m being distance-gated!” if something they want is a few feet away.

Also, the term isn’t used if there’s already a more established term for the type of gating. There’s a specific term for experience gating: “level requirement”. There’s also a specific term for gold gating: “price”, or “cost”.

So leveling a character to 80 is not something significant to get access to endgame content? Earning gold to get gear is not significant to outfit your characters? Understanding how to play and learning how to do things isn’t significant? All those examples I provided fit EXACTLY your definition for gating. I did NOT mention anything about being ‘distance-gated’, so don’t pretend my examples are less valid because you came up with a completely ridiculous one.

I’m only applying your very vague and general description of gating to just a few other MMO examples where it’s applicable, but of course, it doesn’t dawn on you that you switch your meanings around at your leisure to suit whatever arguments you have about why HoT is a failure.

I get you don’t like Hot, but if you aren’t going to have a honest discussion about why, then you aren’t really too serious about it in the first place. Claiming that HoT is a failure for you because for one example, mushrooms are ‘gated’ by Masteries? That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense considering all of the countless OTHER content you have done that is MUCH worsely ‘gated’ than mushrooms are. One has to wonder how you even managed to get out of your first map if you really feel ‘gated’ by such a minor thing a mushrooms …

Simply put, complaining there are ‘things’ in the game that limit your progress (don’t CARE what you want to call those ‘things’) is rather dumb, consider that’s ALL an MMO is … ‘things’ you have to do (called PLAYING the GAME) to achieve ‘stuff’. (I’m vague here to avoid ridiculous arguments about definitions).

What separates GW2 from other MMOs is that relative to other MMO’s, fewer of those ‘things’ actually prevent you from doing much of the ‘stuff’ in the game. Yes, you are still limited in progression, but if you think it’s significant compared to industry standard, then you just aren’t being objective or you just have no clue about what the standard in the industry actually is.

I think its just a disconnect really.

GW2 did too good of a job making everything so…FREE to earn, that it set a precedent for 3 years of mindlessly easy content. We are starting to see it go in a direction that gives it a little bit of depth by adding at least some effort to pay attention to the screen, ala Shatterer Rework in which I am willing to bet some people find too difficult.

It’s unfortunate that A-Net did such a poor job attempting to scale up the difficulty steadily, you can see some failed attempts such as the Tower of Nightmares mobs requiring a ‘stomp’ but is that really difficult? Compared to normal HoT mobs they are still leagues away.

That being said, it is really just a disconnect of players with different MMO backgrounds, many of which probably had zero and some have been around the block to know certain nostalgically bad instances of just terrible…MMO times.

There is always room for improvement, but it has been a long time coming for GW2 to actually take off as an MMO and not just a social game with some lingering easy games that don’t require much thought, such as the majority of Core Tyria.

Sykper.6583:

It’s unfortunate that A-Net did such a poor job attempting to scale up the difficulty steadily, you can see some failed attempts such as the Tower of Nightmares mobs requiring a ‘stomp’ but is that really difficult? Compared to normal HoT mobs they are still leagues away.

But did they? I don’t really think so. Every mob army put in or revamped beginning in November, 2012 upped the ante to some degree. This included Karka, revamped Risen and Krait, Molten Alliance, Nightmare Alliance, Aetherblades and Mordrem. Every one of those armies generated some degree of complaint about difficulty.

I see almost no difference in difficulty between Mordrem in SW and in HoT zones, with the almost being a bit more knock. HoT zones even include a few less-challenging mobs, like boars, tigers and raptors. The thing is, the zones as a whole contain more mobs that are near the upper end of the mob continuum, so it seems like the zones are harder.

Players who want to pride themselves on their skill get used to mob moves quickly, and the nature of the game allows them to negate mob attacks to the point they no longer find them difficult. I cannot think of a single piece of content that has been put into the game which was not generating comments of “too easy” within a relatively short time period. I’ve even seen comments about raids, the supposed pinnacle of PvE difficulty, being too easy.

That does not mean that ANet did a poor job of preparing the player-base for HoT difficulty. It’s just the nature of people to complain about things they don’t enjoy, whether that is difficulty or lack thereof.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Sykper.6583:

It’s unfortunate that A-Net did such a poor job attempting to scale up the difficulty steadily, you can see some failed attempts such as the Tower of Nightmares mobs requiring a ‘stomp’ but is that really difficult? Compared to normal HoT mobs they are still leagues away.

But did they? I don’t really think so. Every mob army put in or revamped beginning in November, 2012 upped the ante to some degree. This included Karka, revamped Risen and Krait, Molten Alliance, Nightmare Alliance, Aetherblades and Mordrem. Every one of those armies generated some degree of complaint about difficulty.

I see almost no difference in difficulty between Mordrem in SW and in HoT zones, with the almost being a bit more knock. HoT zones even include a few less-challenging mobs, like boars, tigers and raptors. The thing is, the zones as a whole contain more mobs that are near the upper end of the mob continuum, so it seems like the zones are harder.

Players who want to pride themselves on their skill get used to mob moves quickly, and the nature of the game allows them to negate mob attacks to the point they no longer find them difficult. I cannot think of a single piece of content that has been put into the game which was not generating comments of “too easy” within a relatively short time period. I’ve even seen comments about raids, the supposed pinnacle of PvE difficulty, being too easy.

That does not mean that ANet did a poor job of preparing the player-base for HoT difficulty. It’s just the nature of people to complain about things they don’t enjoy, whether that is difficulty or lack thereof.

Well yes, but in the Silverwastes you could suck and you wouldn’t necessarily notice it. In the HoT zones, that’s not really the case. A lot of players didn’t complain because they could be carried. Now that they can’t be carried anymore, they’re annoyed that the game is harder. Getting harder only matters to people if it affects their ability to accomplish stuff.

Manasa Devi.7958:

That’s right. I don’t have a clue. I haven’t played any other MMOs in over a dozen years. I don’t need a that clue though to have an opinion about how HoT differs from basic GW2.

You, Sir, are absolutely correct. No one needs any special expertise or knowledge to post on the forums or render an opinion. Nor should they need that knowledge. Everyone should be able to participate in the conversation.

Opinions come in all shapes and sizes. Informed opinions aren’t necessarily correct and uninformed opinions are not necessarily wrong.

On the topic of the changing, I don’t know how anyone can deny it. Of course the game has changed, in some ways drastically. It’s certainly a less casual game than it was. That doesn’t mean that all casuals will have a problem with it, but no one can deny many casual players do.

Thrist.9046:

Well yes, but in the Silverwastes you could suck and you wouldn’t necessarily notice it. In the HoT zones, that’s not really the case. A lot of players didn’t complain because they could be carried. Now that they can’t be carried anymore, they’re annoyed that the game is harder. Getting harder only matters to people if it affects their ability to accomplish stuff.

I think that’s the most important part as far as the entire “difficulty makes a game harder for casuals” argument goes. If we accept that casuals are players who don’t enjoy difficulty/challenge, which isn’t exactly accurate but for the sake of argument let’s say it is, the main question is wether you can be carried on HoT maps or not.

Other than that, I get the feeling that many players expected HoT to be like Champion trains, World boss trains, PVP rank farms and Silverwastes chest farming in terms of difficulty, which is saddening to say the least. All those 4 were mistakes, not because they are too easy or because they offer great rewards, no. But because they “trained” players that they can get everything by standing still in a corner and auto attacking, or pressing F, while watching a movie on a second monitor. And then they expected HoT to be the same.

If someone is to quit the game, or hate HoT, because you must play the game and you can’t get the rewards it offers by doing any of the above brainless “content” types, then all I can say about that is “good riddance”.

Sykper.6583:

It’s unfortunate that A-Net did such a poor job attempting to scale up the difficulty steadily, you can see some failed attempts such as the Tower of Nightmares mobs requiring a ‘stomp’ but is that really difficult? Compared to normal HoT mobs they are still leagues away.

The worst part about the scaled up difficulty was the removal of LS1 content after it was done. Although most of LS1 was way harder than anything in Core Tyria, they removed it few days later, so we went from brainless easy to more challeging and then back, too many times. I believe if LS1 was permanent all the issues with difficulty in HoT would be non-existant.

maddoctor.2738:

Sykper.6583:

It’s unfortunate that A-Net did such a poor job attempting to scale up the difficulty steadily, you can see some failed attempts such as the Tower of Nightmares mobs requiring a ‘stomp’ but is that really difficult? Compared to normal HoT mobs they are still leagues away.

The worst part about the scaled up difficulty was the removal of LS1 content after it was done. Although most of LS1 was way harder than anything in Core Tyria, they removed it few days later, so we went from brainless easy to more challeging and then back, too many times. I believe if LS1 was permanent all the issues with difficulty in HoT would be non-existant.

I think I remember casuals complaining about LS 1 also, if I’m not mistaken.

Thrist.9046:

maddoctor.2738:

Sykper.6583:

It’s unfortunate that A-Net did such a poor job attempting to scale up the difficulty steadily, you can see some failed attempts such as the Tower of Nightmares mobs requiring a ‘stomp’ but is that really difficult? Compared to normal HoT mobs they are still leagues away.

The worst part about the scaled up difficulty was the removal of LS1 content after it was done. Although most of LS1 was way harder than anything in Core Tyria, they removed it few days later, so we went from brainless easy to more challeging and then back, too many times. I believe if LS1 was permanent all the issues with difficulty in HoT would be non-existant.

I think I remember casuals complaining about LS 1 also, if I’m not mistaken.

So they’ve been complaining for the last 3 years and then stopped until HoT was released and they start complaining again? I’m sure there were complaints about LS2 as well, so there’ve been complaints from casuals since forever…

maddoctor.2738:

Thrist.9046:

maddoctor.2738:

Sykper.6583:

It’s unfortunate that A-Net did such a poor job attempting to scale up the difficulty steadily, you can see some failed attempts such as the Tower of Nightmares mobs requiring a ‘stomp’ but is that really difficult? Compared to normal HoT mobs they are still leagues away.

The worst part about the scaled up difficulty was the removal of LS1 content after it was done. Although most of LS1 was way harder than anything in Core Tyria, they removed it few days later, so we went from brainless easy to more challeging and then back, too many times. I believe if LS1 was permanent all the issues with difficulty in HoT would be non-existant.

I think I remember casuals complaining about LS 1 also, if I’m not mistaken.

So they’ve been complaining for the last 3 years and then stopped until HoT was released and they start complaining again? I’m sure there were complaints about LS2 as well, so there’ve been complaints from casuals since forever…

Precisely my point. Every time challenging content was released, a percentage of people complained. The harder the content, the higher the percentage. It seems like some people don’t play this game to be challenged, and never have.