Guild Wars 2

@BuddhaKeks

Body count wise, I meant that the charr killed more people than the mursaat did in gw1, since we were discussing the evilness of the races.

Well I did hear the Mursaat will return in GW2, but exactly how I don’t know, just that they still have more to be told about them.

Jurrzy.1594:

Most Likely (and my personal wishes):

1. Tengu: Way too much potential and context to not be. Plus, an avian race is pretty cool. The fact that they were originally going to be playable also gives them momentum.

Problems: Their “blocked off area” is barely large enough to hold one city, let alone a whole starting area as well. I guess they could share Caledon forest and Kessex hills, but that doesn’t seem fair to this new race. Anet would have to change existing land or add new, illogical land (like they did with Southsun Cove)

2. The Largos: Humanoid models make them easier to code for. They’re very interesting and have a lot to work with. The little info we have on them ends up making them EASIER to add, since they don’t have to shoehorn them into a random, previously unheard of area. They also make sense to add in a Deep Sea Dragon expansion. Plus: mostly or entirely aquatic starting zone=awesome.

Problems: As said by others, they’re supposed to be heavy isolationists. It would be weird to see hundreds of them running across Tyria if it wasn’t explained.

3.Kodan: Polar bear people! My personal number one choice, but they’re lower because they’re less likely. They’ve got a cool settlement design, cool culture, and interesting outlook on life (even if I don’t agree with it). Also, statements that they’re not customizable make no sense. All Largos and Tengu have basically identical models as well, but I don’t see anyone bringing THAT up. We would still probably be able to change skin(fur?) tone from white to a light yellow or light gray, plus all body, face, and accessory customizations. We could also have teeth and claws to customize as well. They’ve also been shown to have fur paintings/tattoos on them in concept art, so that would add another layer of customization. We all also love the look of their sanctuaries, wouldn’t it be cool to see a full city on one? Finally: they were apparently supposed to be much larger before release, as the Snowden Drifts loading screen indicates. Why would the devs scale them down to Norn size, if not to make them possibly playable?

Problems: Only problem I can think of is finding them a home. All known sanctuaries are either under attack or too small. They could have one near the Woodland Cascades, but that would ruin the snow/ice theme unless they made part of the woods snowy or chilly. Still, only a minor obstacle.

Races that probably won’t happen

-Quaggen(models too weird to work)
-Centaurs(see above)
-Skritt (to frequently fought as enemy race0
-Dredge (see above)

One point about the Largos. If we can remember the Asura were isolationists before they were forced out of their caves. Is it weird to see a lot of Asura running around?

Anet took care of that problem already with the Asura. Why would it be a problem with the Largos where they have more freedom to decide what they want to do with them still being an unknown race?

Erukk.1408:

@BuddhaKeks

Body count wise, I meant that the charr killed more people than the mursaat did in gw1, since we were discussing the evilness of the races.

Oh I see, sorry then, though it still could be more or less equal in that case, since the Mursaat probably committed genocide on the Seers and it’s debatable if the deaths in Orr would count for the Charr, they were the reason the cataclysm happened, but they did not execute it.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Erukk.1408:

@BuddhaKeks

Body count wise, I meant that the charr killed more people than the mursaat did in gw1, since we were discussing the evilness of the races.

Oh I see, sorry then, though it still could be more or less equal in that case, since the Mursaat probably committed genocide on the Seers and it’s debatable if the deaths in Orr would count for the Charr, they were the reason the cataclysm happened, but they did not execute it.

I’m at fault as well, since i should have been more specific. Though I do wish we knew more about the Mursaat/Seer war, and what was the cause of it. From what we learned about the Mursaat in gw1, and what little we found out about the Seers in gw2, they were both magical races that would put to shame all of the races of today. I’m guessing that the fully unbound magic of Tyria, before the creation of the Bloodstone, had something to do with that.

The my point basically boils down too… With good enough writing, and maybe a small dose of retcons (or “new knownledge” as it were), the writers can turn any evil race morally grey enough to be playable.

1)Skritt-Can be explained as a large amount of Skritt could be found hiding in fear from the Dragon. After being alloud to join the war against the dragons they could, over time adapt a symbiotic relationship with the other five races of Tyria. (Skritt multiply very fast. So eventually passing the trait of intelligence on to their young each litter.)
I would still like the Skritt to still seem distracted and confused but now they bounce information through body language, scent, and sounds created by the other races to gather information instead of just other Skritt.

2)Margonite: I find this race to be Highly unlikely as a playable race, but I would love them to be one.

3)Tengu:The most likely of my top 3 but not my favorite.

C’mon Skritt Engineer!

( if you had a large mass of Skritt. And you taught the leader to learn and teach then they would all learn at relatively the same time. And if you sustained the same family of Skritt and let their population grow. Perhaps learning to be more intelligent as an inbred trait like in mice and rats. Eventually the Races teaching the Skritt would be psychologically accepted as a member of their group. Perhaps evolving a way past the communication barrier for their own survival. )

And if not that, then teach it how to become a Mesmer and it can make its own clones to increase its intelligence, then it can teach the rest of them XD

1. Tengu
2. Skritt
3. Female Dwarf. (None of the female dwarves turned to stone, imho.)

1. Skritt
2. Tengu/Largos/Kodan (depending on the nature of the expansion, tengu if we go to cantha, largos if we fight bubbles without going to cantha, kodan if we fight jormag)
3. Risen/one of Palawa Joko’s undead (we know that zhaitan’s death hasn’t killed off the risen, theyre in arah explorable after all, and when they’re not doing what zhaitan wants they carry on with their lives, if we go to elona, we could be a member of palawa’s army)

Nalora.7964:

3. Female Dwarf. (None of the female dwarves turned to stone, imho.)

All dwarves did go through the ritual at one point. Females are no exception (if they even exist, but they probably do and maybe even look like the males).

I can only definitely say tengu as I don’t quite like their implementation in GW2 (they were much better in GW1). I don’t like the voice acting, either, so there’s a lot to improve. It’s also a galore of lore just waiting to be tapped into, and they are very customizable and familiar to the series like charr.

Skritt and quaggan would be fun but they’re so perfect as minor races; no changes. Kodan are also fantastic but I feel they’d displace the norn, who would be seen as weaker imitations of real bears; less intelligent too. Yes, it’s my norn pride. We need to be the biggest and baddest (with a long transformation phase please!).

I’d consider dredge if they weren’t utterly hideous, but I’ll throw a vote to hylek assuming strong aesthetic design enhances.

I must be able to play as a Koda.

NO dredge!!

I like the Charr personality and presence at the same time that I lament the fact that they’re a cat race that can’t exactly be called pretty. While I know some players find the Charr to be beautiful, I think that opinion is subjective. In terms of popular opinion, I think they might be considered the least attractive playable race in the game (esp. the females). And Charr are about a hundred times more attractive than the dredge!

Devs don’t need to waste their effort on races that are irredeemably ugly, IMO. Just not worth it for the miniscule fraction of players who would actually roll an ugly race just for the novelty of it.

1. STEAM CREATURES!!! Or whoever made ’m…
2. Tengu because I wanna make a Tengu thief
3. Skritt because its my nickname in game

schizandra.4587:

What about the Mursaat being evil spellcasters who fear ED’s makes you conclude that we won’t see them as enemies?

I said unlikely not definite

The Murzaat left Tyria because they feared their own extinction and the hands of the Elder Dragons
they only ever returned to dominate humans and take over Kryta
to which they suffered massive losses and lost many of their greatest generals

to return now of all times with the Elder Dragons once again awake and not to mention the alliance of many Races doesn’t make sense to me
unless they came back with good intentions which is unlikely they would literally be trying to take over the world by taking on the whole world including the massive army’s commanded by their greatest enemies

it just doesn’t seem like something such a advanced, intelligent Elder Race would do

Erukk.1408:

@BuddhaKeks

Body count wise, I meant that the charr killed more people than the mursaat did in gw1, since we were discussing the evilness of the races.

Were the Charr Evil though?

Originally Ascalon was Charr land and the Humans drove them out and built Ascalon on top of it

What the Charr did in Gw1 was little more than Revenge

Teratus.2859:

Erukk.1408:

@BuddhaKeks

Body count wise, I meant that the charr killed more people than the mursaat did in gw1, since we were discussing the evilness of the races.

Were the Charr Evil though?

Originally Ascalon was Charr land and the Humans drove them out and built Ascalon on top of it

What the Charr did in Gw1 was little more than Revenge

wheras adelbern nuked both sides, and enslaved one and doomed it to eternal torment.

Yes, they were the evil villainous race at the beginning of gw1. What with them udderly destroying the southern Ascalon region, trying to wipe out or enslave any survivors, or you know… eating them. They were being lead my the flame shamans after all. The race didn’t get its morally shades of grey until Eotn.

I’d rather not get into the “X was owned my Y” war of territory. Because originally, all of Tyria was held by the old races, and I doubt any of the new races will move if a forgotton slithers up and hands them an eviction notice.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Nalora.7964:

3. Female Dwarf. (None of the female dwarves turned to stone, imho.)

All dwarves did go through the ritual at one point. Females are no exception (if they even exist, but they probably do and maybe even look like the males).

In fact I remember a battle quote by Ogden in gw1 about you probably having already met a female dwarf and don’t know how to diferentiate them. It may be just a joke, but who knows…

Easy choices:
Sand Wurms from the desert – GW1… ure one.. u got some awesome attacks ^^ (culture and cities might be a problem thow… )
- joke mode off -

Pulling from GW1.
A Developed Dinasour.. they did all vanish (wonder why and where in the 250 years between GW1 and 2 – T-Rex in the bar? GTFO! ) – anyway – perhaps a few was kept in cages by asura’ns.. given intelligence… survived? – far out, but.. perhaps in Maguuma – if it becomes availible.

Giants. Well, there isnt many.. thow.. we dont actually know anything bout them…

Imps – yeah, they fly… but besides that.. theyre present in GW1 AND 2.. theyre intelligent, and they could pop up anywhere both in Elona or Cantha… Why wouldnt atleast one imp somewhere see the greater picture and choose differently.. or how bout a small group.

Flame Legion Charr. Even they must know that the dragons gonna come for them eventually – ure already at war with the rest of the charr’s… u have all the classes from GW1.. u have ure own homeland.. and u can pretty much use any armor or wpn developed for charr. Story wise would be interesting.. do ANET add a Flame Legion char as a “desertor”, or did the entire flame legion join the Pact, but independent off the rest of the charr.. Customization – add some differences from the regular Charr.. Fur, armors, little things.. enough to be visible.. perhaps to close to the existing ones. In either case – flame legion desertor..

I highly doubt that the Pact would allow the Flame Legion to join their ranks, or vice versa. First, the Pact is highly supported by the Charr High Legions, and by allying themselves with the Flame Legion, they would lose the 3 other Legions as allies. Not only that, but why would the Flame Legion ally with the group that joined up with the Seraph and the High Legions and killed their leader, wiping out their greatest fortification at the same time.

Lokheit.7943:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Nalora.7964:

3. Female Dwarf. (None of the female dwarves turned to stone, imho.)

All dwarves did go through the ritual at one point. Females are no exception (if they even exist, but they probably do and maybe even look like the males).

In fact I remember a battle quote by Ogden in gw1 about you probably having already met a female dwarf and don’t know how to diferentiate them. It may be just a joke, but who knows…

It is actually a common joke in RPG games. I often play a female dwarf in tabletop games because they are rare. (As I have said before, I began playing RPG in 1978) This is why I can say with complete confidence that female dwarves would never go through the ritual of turning to stone.

How about the Oni? I always love how crazy they look. Perhaps after Kanaxai died, they form their own functioning sociality. They are the arch rival to the Largos, who also claim to be the best assassins in the world. Although this rivalry has more to do with race honour than actual hatred. The results are undecided, with wins and loses going both ways.

First of all, I’ll take anything over the aquatic-butterfly-drizzt knockoffs. But beyond that.

1. Centaur
2. Tengu (didn’t care at first, but they’ve grown on me)
3. Ogres

Additionally, some people have named undead, but that doesn’t seem possible. However one group of Undead that may be possible are the Fleshreaver’s, unlike the rest of the undead they are their own race. However they are incredibly evil, and multiply only by dismembering the living and using the parts to create new fleshreavers, or to supplement their own form.

Tengu
Pro – They are already located in/near the current game area, they have clearly developed a culture and have a homeland, and have some interesting lore potential as to the explanation of their unification.
Con – We’re already short for space in and around the Domain of Winds.

Kodan
Pro – Currently emigrating from the north, have a unique philosophical and fairly well-established culture, fit with current professions as far as we know.
Con – Could overlap quite severely with the Norn motif – big, northern hunters, are bears; different Sanctuaries may be totally separate social entities.

Hylek
Pro – Would make for interesting animation, already integrated into a number of areas.
Con – Need to be fleshed out as a race/culture, are often hostile without clear separation of factions.

I don’t see quaggan (too peaceful), centaur (definitely an enemy story-wise), largos (too individualistic/secretive), skritt (low intelligence, unlikely to be justified unless we get to play a group of like 15), or ogres (mostly hostile), ever becoming playable.

quaggan quaggan quaggan and then dredge… why dredge? because judge dredge thats why.

Conncept.7638:

First of all, I’ll take anything over the aquatic-butterfly-drizzt knockoffs. But beyond that.

1. Centaur
2. Tengu (didn’t care at first, but they’ve grown on me)
3. Ogres

Additionally, some people have named undead, but that doesn’t seem possible. However one group of Undead that may be possible are the Fleshreaver’s, unlike the rest of the undead they are their own race. However they are incredibly evil, and multiply only by dismembering the living and using the parts to create new fleshreavers, or to supplement their own form.

Maybe there is a good race of Fleshreavers that only cut up cows for meat, instead of people for meat? ^^

1. Kodan. They’re awesome, make since lore-wise, and can conceivably be any profession, unlike the Largos for example, who would all be thieves.

2. Tengu. It’s HEEAVILY foreshadowed that they’re coming anyway, and bird people rock.

3. Dwarves. Far less likely since Anet seems to be pushing the angle that they’re not just hiding out underground and only have a couple survivors left, but would still be cool.

Largos
Tengu
Kodan

Most of us can agree on Tengu and somewhat agree on Largos and Kodan. I believe the Largos do stand a good chance to be playable, having not much lore. Anet has a lot of freedom to decide if they wanted to make them playable and I think that gives them one of the best chances.

CHIPS.6018:

How about the Oni? I always love how crazy they look. Perhaps after Kanaxai died, they form their own functioning sociality. They are the arch rival to the Largos, who also claim to be the best assassins in the world. Although this rivalry has more to do with race honour than actual hatred. The results are undecided, with wins and loses going both ways.

Yep given how from the “current” Tyrian races I only see Largos and Tengu as possibilities I sugested Oni too some pages back.

But what I sugested was more on the lines of a possibility of a sub-branch of onis being traped in the Jade or tyranized by Kanaxai so we never get to see them during gw1, and now with Kanaxai out of the equation and the Jade in a melting process, we get to see them in the world.

Them trying to emulate Largos would make a too similar race (when Norn already try to hunt the biggest preys to build their legends) IMO.

Onis probably are one of the very few races strong enough/mobile enough to avoid being wiped from Cantha by the new xenophobic emperor.

Also, they would allow for a lot of physical properties and imagination from a character creation pespective.

It won’t happen, but I’d say:

Skritt
Tengu
Centaur

And with special guest star, golems.

Feel that the quaggan, kodan & skritt would probably work the best in the current collection of races though i’d prefer another, as it’d be quite easy to have a dwarven race in the depths of the lands from Guild Wars1 Factions/Nightfall finding a way to the rest of the current world of GW2.

I am being realistic, unlike 80% of these posts..
1) Tengu, several reasons, they are a more developed race, their homeland already exists between Lion’s Arch and Caledon Forest. They are best pick probably, once the dragons will become a bigger threat they will probably cooperate more with other races.
2) Kodan, dispite having the pre-requisites, they way Anet approached us to them is almost too direct to make me think of anything coming soon. Probably they will become playable once we will re-conquer Far Shiverpeaks from Jormag.
3) Largos, perhaps in a future expansion regarding DSD, however I hardly imagine any of Largos being a scholar class. (Not that a Mesmer Kodan is easier to concept, but well, there are Mesmer Charrs.. still, what about Largos Elementalist?).

Anyone that actually belives that Skritt/Quaggans/Centaurs should re-read their whole lore again and then think about the problems about their introduction inside the game (Centaurs leggins!? srly!?). People probably don’t realize that Tyria can’t have geared giants/ogres/jotuns/harpies running around either… Also these are all too primitive, don’t seem to have a reasonable homeland at all (Centaurs probably have it, but at this point I don’t see why not make Dredges playable too).
Dwarves are very unlikely, also knowing that females are hardly different from males already makes already con.

3. Dwarves. Far less likely since Anet seems to be pushing the angle that they’re not just hiding out underground and only have a couple survivors left, but would still be cool.

Umh. Not really. They’ve been consistently back-tracking on ‘dwarves extinct’ since the start of GW2. Ogden outright states in Arah Explorable that the dwarves are still fighting Primordus in the depths.

Dwarves are very unlikely, also knowing that females are hardly different from males already makes already con.

And Charr females didn’t exist in game in GW1. That’s not really an argument to level against non-playable dwarves.

1. Tengu – With such a fascinating culture, music, and appearance, combined with the originality of this race as a whole, it seems to be a slam dunk.

2. Stone Dwarf – So much potential for additonal lore and plot twists here. Besides these, dwarves tend to be overly generic in games (Scottish/Irish drunkards who love smashing things and making fools of themselves), but GW2 has done a phenominal job with taking sterotypes and completely shattering them in a good way. Let’s do it again, ANet!

3. Quaggan – Once again, such a culturally rich, original race! There is no match to their pacifistic culture yet in the game, and a shapeshifter mechanic could make gameplay and aesthetics much more interesting!

Other possibilities and why they are less likely in my mind:

1. Centaur – While very cool and still screaming to be done in many MMORPGs, centaurs are quadrupedal. This makes animation attempts a lot harder. Plus, with the cultural reconciliation needed between them and humans, it would be too similar to the Charr plot and hence feel repetitive.

2. Kodan – Talk about a cool race! The primary reason these would not be used would be their cultural similarity to the Tengu and Norn (feeling like some kind of hybrid culturally). Additionally, their culture and the fact that they are bears, sad to say, would get HUGE criticism and accusation because of its similarity to WoW’s Pandaren.

3. Grawl – Though these guys are comical and would offer a primitive culture to play, Grawl just lack an element of interest that so many other races have.

4. Hylek – These are not so far-fetched. The primary reason they would not be included, as mentioned in an earlier comment, would have to be the poison immunity that would be difficult to balance with other game mechanics, though a solution to this might be making a racial skill that grants poison immunity when activated.

1. Largos, because I like blue people with white hair (see also Andorians). I am intrigued by the Largos and would like to see more of them.

2. Centaurs, because I can outrun a centaur. I have wanted to play a centaur since Nightfall.

3A. Earth Ponies because the flying in this game is too limited for effective Pegasi and Unicorns are OP and because somebody posted a GW2 video with an MLP remix thing in it and before I knew what went wrong I’d watched all three seasons of FiM, so there. /)

3B. Tengu, in the event that ponies don’t make it in. Then again, bird flu.

3C. Skritt. More come, yes? They could be different colors and stuff.

I would love dwarves but I definitely expect Tengu (there’s even a starting city for them already right next to lions) and possibly Kodan.

Perhaps the Largos too but I haven’t seen any of them out of the water and having a water based race that doesn’t have an advantage fighting in the water would be dumb (giving them the advantage would have players of the other races up in arms about the balancing).

I would be surprised to see the quaggans as a playable race too, to me they are like moogles and should remain as npcs.

I would love to play as a baby dragon. I know this is very far fetched. But maybe some descendants of Glint survive and went into hiding. Now they want revenge against the Elder Dragons.

Maybe the lore will say that it takes baby dragons a few hundred years to grow up. So in the GW2 storyline they will be small, similar size to a Charr.

Don’t think playable dragons has ever happened in a mmo before.

Skritt! Really, there’s already an in game explanation begging to be used as the Asura have been playing around with skritt IQ. This would explain skritt PCs running around by their lonesome without turning into dimwits.

What I want:

1. Tengu
2. Dwarf
3. Kodan

Alternatives I would like:
4. Largos
5. Skritt

Extra alternatives that I’d like but probably won’t happen ever:
6. Harpy
7. Centaur

But yeah, if we don’t get Tengu I’m going to raise some mighty confused eyebrows. They seem a dead ringer.

#bird’s
#insects
#Simians

[img]http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/110/3/2/captain_simian_by_wing_saber-d35v5cs.jpg[/img]

I already put three up, but another I’d like to add are the Mist born human-ish beings like Razah. They would be an interesting addition, and since the are only made by templets; they can have all sorts of weird and awesome stuff in their character creation.

tengu-as shown above.
quaggans-they are great!
largos-i liked the idea…

Largos, Tengu and Kodan seem to be likely candidates for future races. Personally i’d like to see Quaggan, Hylek and Skritt.

1.Tengu
2.Largos
3. Krait
(4. Palawa Joko’s “free” undead)

either of those could be potentially the racial opposition against the “deep sea dragon” (Bubbles)
It wouldn’t be Skritt or Quaggan, nor Grawl, because in Lore these are considered “lesser races,” that is they’re not as refined. Krait may fall under this heading, but they’re pretty much all evil, so a ‘rebel faction’ of them doesn’t seem likely. Tengu seems the most likely for an expansion race; their hub city is already in a set area and connects to a 1-15 lvl zone (Caledon Forest), and could easily connect to Kessex Hills, and already connects to Lion’s Arch. It may also connect to Southsun Cove.

Largos are mostly unknown about, but a race that was rooted in aquatics would make for a nice change, and the lack of knowledge about them leaves a LOT of wiggle room for developers. But where would they be based at? Most of the world map is accommodated for something else (even though not released/available yet)

However.. Palawa Joko’s “free” undead could prove to be (unoriginal) assets too. If we take into account the known and suspected dragons (Jormag-Ice/Primordius-Fire, “deep sea dragon”-Water(deep things)/Kralkatorrik-Land(elevated things), Zhaitan-Death/“jungle dragon”-Life), and since no set race is (so far) singally set against the deep sea dragon, that leaves the “jungle dragon” to be set against.. The Sylvari are diametrically opposed to the death-dragon, so Joko’s undead would be diametrically opposed to the “life”-dragon.

Tengu, Kodan, Dwarves.

My first pick would be the Tengu, because honestly I want to see what those little birdies are hiding in the Dominion of Winds.
Second pick would be the Centaurs, mostly in particular the Veldrunners. Ever since doing their quests in Guild Wars I’ve always had a deep interest in them. I think I would dance for joy if they were ever added in as a playable race.
Thirdly would be the Kodan, because I love polar bears and doing all the events in Frostgorge Sound got me thinking about them too. Koda is quite the interesting thing.
Which reminds me, for those of you who are discounting the centaurs because of water issues, horses can actually swim quite well! Here’s a video showing an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfb3Pg_qQos

1 Dwarfs – it would be great.
2 Let it be Tengu.
3 I don’t know, maybe Seers.

But Dwarfs my main wish.

Well I would Love to play a Centaur but that isn’t ever going to happen. Everything would just be too difficult. Armour, animations…could you imagine one of them trying to do a jumping puzzle? Or performing death blossom? Charr feel a little too slow when they run, a centaur would be far worse for that.

A Naga/ forgotten/Krait like race would be cool as well but have the same issue centaur have. I don’t really see any race that doesn’t have two arms and two les working in an mmo that isn’t a click to move where you can’t jump, swim or climb

I would also love to play a tengu and fortunately that one is very likely!

The most likely races to become playable are Tengu and Largos. I’m not sold on Largos but an underwater city could be awesome. Kodan are another that might become playable although it might be a challenge to give distinct appearance options to a polar bear race.

Ony the tengu has chances. Skritt, quaggans and so on, these are called lesser races, and it has a reason why. Centaurs? Really? They are in war with the humans. Besides, can you imagine them doing a dodge roll? Same goes for the krait, they are savages and haven’t go legs.. for leg armor.

The charr took 250 years to be at the state of making peace with humans.

The kodan are too norn-like.

Margonites were/are humans.

Harpies are too primitive and aggressive, they exist without capital, cities, lore or own playfields.

Largos are too few and prefer to hide.

Maybe dwarves, if the ritual would break after the defeat of Primordus, but I don’t think so.

So in my opinion, only the Tengu could be the 6th atm, and in a further expansion, the canthan Humans, (so nothing new race), but new starter areas and palyfields from lvl 1-80.

1. Largos (and i hate underwater combat)
2. Tengu
3. Skritt (just love ’em rats)