Guild Wars 2

Hm, now I see why Sylvari don’t have their own children _. What will they do with the Grove? Is it going to turn out like Lion’s Arch and get attacked and become bleh?

Well we? think that Ronan and Ventari gave the Pale Tree positive influence which helped her to grow the way she did and create the dream to protect her children so they could have their own future and possibly destroy the dragon instead of being controlled.

So the thing with Malyck is maybe his Tree just got planted but no one stayed around to influence her. Although that tree is in Maguuma somewhere. I’m not really sure why Malyck is more similar to our sylvari even though apparently his Tree never produced a dream to protect it’s sylvari. We could just say that since the dragon was sleeping already his influence wouldn’t have started until he awoke. But then Malyck/his people are probably going to be all Mordy controlled at this point. =/

Lilyandra.1465:

As a lover of Sylvari I am upset that it actually turned out this way. I didn’t want my favorite race to be dragon minions

Good. You’re supposed to be opinionated about it. You’re supposed to not want to be evil or lack free will. This is the correct response. Claiming that the story should be changed because you have this response is the incorrect response.

Oh, I’m sucking it up haha.

In my experience with games when people start complaining about how a game is going wanting it to change, when they change it/if they change it, it makes it worse not better. Our Player characters aren’t likely to start turning insane on their own. But there will be tension! And probably mass burning of the Grove =(

BrunoBRS.5178:

Zhaneel.9208:

Lore becomes useless when no effort is made to be consistent. What is the point in making the Sylvari dragon minons? Angst? We might as well make Guild Wars a Space adventure first person shooter. Those are popular, right?

Wake me up when they’ve moved on from the Sylvari to focus on other races.

i’m surprised there really are people that believe it was a recent decision.

While I find it silly myself, it’s not actually that surprising. People get skeptical when material posed as evidence isn’t conclusive and since many don’t like losing, it makes sense that denial is a key factor. Really though, a lot of those who were against the entire “thing” (since it’s not a theory anymore) were entering the discussion with all of these preconceived notions based on bias. For example, I myself didn’t like the Sylvari at the start so the idea that the Sylvari were Tyria’s immune system to combat the Dragons was absurd to me. :P

In the end judging from the fact that almost everyone saw the Sylvari being Mordrem coming it would seem that the obvious solution no matter how ugly must be the truth!

Therefore:

Scarlet is a Sylvari(confirmed)

Scarlet is a Mordrem(confirmed)

Zhaitan is the Green Orb due to the order of the orbs(confirmed).

Sylvari are Mordrem(confirmed)

Toxic Krait are Mordrem(blatantly obvious)

Flame Legion Charr are corrupted into Destroyers(they have magma eyes and magma hands)

Molten Alliance Dredge are Destroyers(they have magma arms and magma heads)

Plant Stalkers, Thornbrushes, Corrupted Roots, Enchanted Brambles, Ibogas and Jacaranda are all Demons created by Abaddon’s followers(a quest makes this obvious)

Aloes are fungi given life by unrestrained magic(made blatantly obvious in Eye of the North)

Imps are created by Abaddon(why else would the Sparks of the Titans look like Imps?)

Sentient trees allied with the Sylvari and Mordremoth are Mordrem while the rest are creations of Melandru(seems obvious)

Crystalline Elementals like the ones in the Dragon’s Lair and in the Charr Homelands are Branded(obvious considering that the Dragon’s Lair holds Kralkatorrik’s Champion Glint and the fact that the Charr Homelands was right next to Kralkatorrik when we visited it)

Earth Elementals and Ice Elementals are created by Elementalists except for the Djinn who are ghosts bound to an Element

Dragon Lillies, Undergrowths, Dragon Mosses, Brooding Thorns, Burning Brushs, Twisted Barks, Thorn Wolves and Island Gaurdians are all Mordrem(most look like Dragons while Thorn Wolves in the Maguuma are confirmed Mordrem)

Kuunavang has been infected by the Chalice of Corruption no thanks to Usoku or his successor taking advantage of the plans being in the possession of the Ministry of Purity(hinted at during PAX where ArenaNet called Glint the only good Dragon)

Evon Gnashblade is trying to bring a Fractal version of Abaddon into Tyria causing Nightfall(ArenaNet claims that his interest in the Mists is Religious)

Primordus is in the Maguuma Jungle(Maguuma Wastes is dry and magma breathing Dragons plus one other molten monstrosity working alongside a Mordrem are in the Heart of Thorns trailer)

Primordus is allied to Mordremoth(Molten Alliance was created by Mordremoth’s agent and I repeat there is a molten monstrosity working alongside a Mordrem in the Heart of Thorns trailer)

Molten Alliance represent Primordus, Aetherblades represent Glint’s egg and the Toxic Alliance represent Mordremoth himself.

Nightmare Court are amazing!
I love them better than the ’dreamers’ Sylvari...!
I wish I could choose between joining sides..
Atleast most or all my Sylvari characters have Nightmare Court- appereance
Faolain <3

Why you gotta necro the thread, Bobby? Y U DO DIS?!

Isn’t it obvious? For the glory of EU! Best server region confirmed!

Bobby Stein is actually Verata, which is why GW2 recently referenced him.

Whoohoo EU ftw. (and all the other things people might scream at this point, I am not familiar with)

Now we just have to play “Where is Bobby” , though.

However for this thread. I guess, without new info we went about almost everything right now. Hope the thread helps to get insight in how we (at least here in the lore section) think and which parts of the new lore has to be adressed to fit in more tight, instead of feeling like a crammed in concept for shock value (which some people feel like. Though most just wanted to feel more embeded into the stuff they already know).

devs can jump between NA and EU? ‘cause i’m pretty sure i had a very brief conversation with him when episode 5 started :P

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

With the Sylvari however, people were yelling it as soon as we went into the Mordremoth plot. They instantly guessed it. And a lot of lore fans still disagreed, because it simply did not make sense considering what we knew, and know today, about dragon minions. And that still holds true, it doesn’t make sense. But regardless, the writers should have reconsidered. It wasn’t a very good twist, and it didn’t have a very good basis either from a lore point of view.

Agreed. Although, people had been pulling that theory even before the Invasive Weed came into existence. That’s how bad it was. They could’ve made the sylvari related to the druids, or evolved forms of mosshearts, or something else on their own entirely.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There was a real opportunity here for the writers, to delve into the Nightmare Court, and show us that things aren’t quite so black and white. That the Nightmare Court aren’t just evil, but a valid alternative philosophy. But the real disappointment comes from how they’ve done exactly the opposite. I think this also explains a lot of the disappointment regarding the idiot-ball plot with Caithe’s storyline. Its not just that Caithe is so willfully ignorant of reality to further the plot, but also that Faolain is so incredibly unrealistically black-hat. There seems no nuance, and it utterly ruins the race in my opinion.

Again, agreed. Some of Cadeyrn’s issues with the tablet had some potential. Same with Gavin, (who only shows up in the White Stag storyline) who genuinely thought he was doing what was right and had a sense of honor. Aside from that, every other courtier we encounter is just evil.

And the memory seed flashblacks utterly ruin Caithe and Faolain. We could’ve seen Faolain have a nicer side to her but eventually darken over time due to her experiences. Instead, she’s already pretty much evil right from the start. Meanwhile, Caithe seems to have barely any personality herself. Why do these two love each other again?

Also, here’s a question: Why couldn’t Caithe have just killed Faolain, and then Cadeyrn and the others? She could’ve prevented the Nightmare Court from forming. Even if others eventually formed it anyway, the Court probably wouldn’t have been as big of a threat as it had gotten.

Ironically, her stealing the egg (which we still don’t know the reason for) is what led to us finding out the secret in the end. And, if Caithe is to be believed, the Pale Tree knew of these events already (or at least Wynne’s death). So…why didn’t she just tell us this?

Why didn’t Caithe warn Trahearne? I know you want to keep this secret, but I’m sure Trahearne won’t blab about it, and him knowing about this could’ve prevented the disaster, or at least made it not as bad…seriously, it like everything bad so far is happening because the main characters are either stupid or keeping secrets unnecessarily. It’s not good storytelling.

Just because some people don’t agree with a story doesn’t mean it isn’t good. And just because people predicted it, doesn’t make it “Omg the WORST story ever!” Not everything has to be a Scooby Doo mystery. It really COULD be a dragon this whole time, and not the creepy human-plant farmer in a really elaborate mask. What if this entire time the Sylvari were NOT mordrem spawn? Because last I checked that was also a theory that was thrown around at launch. And no less valid a theory than the opposite. Then all the pro-dragon spawn people would be throwing the tantrum saying “OMG, this was SO obvious the entire time, because people have caught on since…forever ago!” Sometimes people are wrong. It happens. No reason to freak out and say “This story is garbage and the devs are all fan pleasing LIARS >:o”

Faolin COULD have had a nicer side, but honestly (and this is just my opinion) that would just be too cliche. There are so many “good people losing their way” tropes, it’s actually kind of nice to see someone who just so happens to be an insufferable kitten from the start. Not everyone is nice. Why should Faolin be? Caithe though…she’s comes off as naive and even spineless. They can probably mold her into someone a little more tolerable. But again, personal opinion.

As for the warning Trehearne bit, I think she probably kept it from him for the same reason she kept it hidden from literally every other Sylvari that exists or has ever existed. That knowledge won’t help anyone. At all. Not if it got out at least. Trehearne’s purpose is to kill dragons. It’d probably be a lot easier for him to just go at Mordremoth thinking “Oh its just another enemy” and not worry about silly little things like “This is my creator!” Plus, Caithe has no reason to trust that Trehearne will keep his mouth shut on the issue and not spill the information to someone that might be able to abuse said information. Like any soundless that might be in the pact, or any nightmare /general enemy that captures someone under Trehearnes command who might have found out (should Trehearne be the overly forth-coming type).

It’s a trap! Or a double blind. Double cross? Something sneaky and nefarious.

Who has seen Cloverdale? Spoilers if you haven’t. The big monster (dragon) had all these human-sized parasite thingees (sylvari) falling off of it, running wild in the streets, quite independent of their former host. One might say the parasites ‘belong to’ the monster. Eh? Eh?

Maybe that’s a truer representation of the relationship between Ol’ Mordy and the sylvari than the dragon + dragon minions interpretation. And maybe Mordy ‘took control’ of the Pact sylvari because his agents spiked the Pact’s drinking water with the Tyrian equivalent of Miracle-Gro, which set them off on a hyper-invigorated rampage. Trahearne and any player character sylvari weren’t affected because, being ranking officers, they got to drink wine (of the finest vintages, of course) from some personal stash instead of water and ale from barrels kept in storage. Anyway, there goes a big chunk of the invading enemy force, all in one swell foop. Mordy targeted the sylvari, of course, because they are plants! And he’s all about the plants, ’bout the plants, no mammals.

What Wynne actually saw in the Dream was an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato, or whatever.

So there. A perfectly feasible, all parts fitting, alternate scenario.

Oh, and Caithe arranged the murder of Scarlet because Scarlet knew what a stinkweed Caithe really is.

I still think it might be old Farmer McCready. Using holograms (we know we have them. Remember Dragon Bash?) and powerful fertilizer. Any old person can raise a farm with produce. Tomatoes here, carrots there. But the human/plant hybrid market? That’s untapped potential! And McCready can’t have competition. He needs to corner the market. So he makes the whole “Mordremoth” charade to make the Sylvari™ unappealing! And when this all blows over, and the “dragon” is gone, all that’s left is MCready and his super crop of eerily humanoid plants for sale.

Only problem is, he never counted on those pesky sleuths, the Biconics and their GOLEM.

I’m admittedly a newbie to the lore forum, and I apologize if this has already been presented or refuted, but just because the sylvari were “meant” to serve Mordremoth doesn’t mean they are true dragon minions in my mind, but rather the carefully cultivated children of a creature that is a true dragon minion. My interpretation is the following:

Mordremoth or his champions created seeds meant to create powerful new champions. As seeds they did not yet have any sentience, and only the most minimal amount of Mordremoth’s influence upon them, without even the most basic mind yet they couldn’t be fully corrupted. These seeds were stolen before they could be used by Ronan and possibly others.

Growing outside of Mordremoth’s influence they might have followed Mawdrey and just been a benign Mordremoth vine in appearance, but these seeds grew into sentient champions (equally sentient to any of the other dragon champions, but having grown without corruption in the first place) and had some influence over their appearance choosing at least in the pale tree’s case to be something more pleasing to those she grew amongst and watching. Sylvari are able to manipulate their own appearance to some extent (see the twins / young Caithe vs current Caithe), and unless I’m remembering incorrectly the Pale Tree’s avatar is of her own choosing, so it’s not hard to imagine the pale tree having significant influence on how she grows aesthetically.

Still largely uninfluenced by a sleeping Mordremoth at this point the pale tree begins to bear fruit, her nature allows her to likely make all sorts of horrific minions, but she chooses to create children in the image of those she grew amongst and their pets (Leading to human sylvari and doglike fern hounds). Her sister(s) (Malyck’s tree and possibly others) make similar choices in form based on those they grow around, but possibly not similar choice in terms of how they raise them.

This in my mind makes Sylvari twice removed from Mordremoth, not quite dragon minions, and being quite different from standard dragon minions as a result. Had the pale tree and her sisters grown as intended they would likely be churning out harvests of husks, thrashers and the like, but growing amongst humans and not as intended they have borne very different fruit. The tree herself and her children would be very vulnerable to Mordremoth, but not to the point of the dragon instantly taking them all over. I do suspect at this point all remaining sisters of the pale tree have been fully corrupted by Mordremoth and are responsible for much of the bulk of his army.

I think being creations of the pale tree vs creations of Mordremoth directly is why sylvari follow largely different rules. The Pale Tree quite likely does consume magic, and she may even be somewhat privy to the hive mind of Mordremoth’s other minions, but she has crafted her children as she saw fit, following Ventari’s tablet and making them physically as close to humans as she could since that is what she knew and cared for.

Shiren.9532:

All this talk about corruption.

Are the destroyers corrupted or are they simply destroyers? Corruption of a creature that was never a dragon minion is possibly different from a creature that is brought into the world as a dragon minion. Corruption means to change from it’s true form, arguably any sylvari that fights Mordremoth is the one that is corrupted, not sylvari that embrace their true purpose and serve their master.

We simply don’t know how sylvari went from “meant to serve the dragon” to the dragon fighting army we know today. It might be simply the positive nurturing of the Pale Tree, no magic involved, it might be the power of a forgotten ritual performed off-screen, perhaps Glint intervened or Ventari and Ronan did more than we know. It’s simply unknown at this point.

We don’t even know how a sylvari goes from loyal Pact member to turning on its allies in the blink of an eye. Was there a pollen in the air? Did their minds become vulnerable because the Pale Tree is weak? Is it proximity to the dragon? Do some of them have weak wills? We simply don’t know.

I remember this from my A-level Psychology class under Child Development stuffs. It was entitled Nature Vs. Nurture.

The sylvari do seem to exist in a grey area between dragon spawn and dragon corrupted creature. “We were meant to serve the dragon”, is an ambiguous statement that still leaves some subtle details unanswered.

I’m very interested in Caithe. I have read the Edge of Destiny book and I enjoyed her fearless curiosity and sense of adventure. It did hurt me a bit to see Caithe so young and naive, and I had to keep reminding myself that she is only two years old in the vision.

It also hurt to see Caithe so blind to Faolain’s selfish thirst for power, but then I reminded myself that for those two years Caithe and Faolain were the only sylvari who sought to adventure beyond the Pale Tree’s roots in which they formed a deep relationship.

I am looking to see how Heart of Thorns expands on Caithe’s story (and Faolain). I’m excited for all of the new gameplay and mechanics, but one thing I’m sad that I have heard nothing about is Caithe.

Infatum.2481:

Mordremoth or his champions created seeds meant to create powerful new champions. As seeds they did not yet have any sentience, and only the most minimal amount of Mordremoth’s influence upon them, without even the most basic mind yet they couldn’t be fully corrupted. These seeds were stolen before they could be used by Ronan and possibly others.

Lack of sentience doesn’t seem to be proof against corruption – there are previously ordinary plants in the Brand and in Sparkfly that have been corrupted.

What’s possibly more likely is that Mordremoth wanted a ‘sleeper army’ that wouldn’t be immediately identified as belonging to a dragon – not necessarily expecting them to be as deeply involved in the opposition as they’ve turned out to be, but it likely knew that it would be the last to awake and wanted to have an army waiting for him that wouldn’t be pre-emptively culled before he awoke.

Maybe the sylvari are evolving. Maybe this time around they aren’t the same as last time. Maybe the seeds were subjected to radiation from solar flares, or gamma ray bursts, or the planet passed through some wacky space cloud. Who knows? Maybe this patch has a bunch of sylvanus superior in amongst ’em!

And maybe our characters are… The Uncannable X-Plants!

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned, nor if it is of much worth now.

My partner is Swedish and I’ve picked up a fair amount of the language. I was playing in the Silverwastes and, mysteriously, my brain translated Mordrem for me into english.

In Swedish:

• Mor: Mother
• dröm: Dream

dröm is pronounced more or less just lke “drem” is in english.

So we end up with Motherdream.

Sorry for necropost.