My god, what have you done to conditions
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So you are implying that power build can’t kill just as fast?
So you are implying that power build can’t kill just as fast?
People simply feel powerless against conditions because before they could be ignored, to a point at least.
I personally don’t think that conditions themselves are overtuned but maybe a few skills applying them (Reapershroud 4 for example).
Comes back after 2 year break, dies against people who have been active, calls everyone noobs and asks everyone to be nerfed.
So you are implying that power build can’t kill just as fast?
People simply feel powerless against conditions because before they could be ignored, to a point at least.
I personally don’t think that conditions themselves are overtuned but maybe a few skills applying them (Reapershroud 4 for example).
That is pretty mild compared to Poison Volley.
So you are implying that power build can’t kill just as fast?
People simply feel powerless against conditions because before they could be ignored, to a point at least.
I personally don’t think that conditions themselves are overtuned but maybe a few skills applying them (Reapershroud 4 for example).
That is pretty mild compared to Poison Volley.
It was an example, nothing more.
2 years ago condition builds were useless (and I say this as someone who played them anyway). IF you were the only person in that fight using conditions you might be able to contribute meaningful damage but anyone else using conditions actually reduced your damage because everyone was sharing the same stack limit.
And since it’s pretty much impossible to avoid using conditions (even on a pure power build some skills will still trigger conditions) you were better off just using power, unless you were playing solo in PvE and willing to accept that if anyone else showed up they may reduce your damage.
Now condition builds basically work the same way as power builds – you do your damage, everyone else around you does theirs and if you’re attacking the same target it all adds up.
Yes it does mean that in PvP you need to use condition removal, but in many cases you can get that from traits so it happens automatically and you don’t even need to do anything.
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The condition damage in this game is out of control.
you can kill a person in 3-5 seconds with condition burst.
and you can kill people in 2 seconds with power burst.
i click 5 on my staff thief, every enemy around me takes 10k dmg.
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Comes back after 2 year break, dies against people who have been active, calls everyone noobs and asks everyone to be nerfed.
Seems legit. After all, only noobs can kill you in a couple of seconds!
how many meta builds are based on conditions and how many are based on bunker/direct damage ?
The argument of the OP is valid. Conditions rely on only one stat and were meant to kill slowly while giving the player two other stats (vita, toughness) to sustain.
Conditions were by design not meant to burst people down!
Today condition builds can burst like power builds. ANet “fixed” the sustain issue by removing tanky amulets form sPvP. The result is a complete mess in WvW.
(edited by KrHome.1920)
we are on pvp forum , not wvw. In spvp how many condi builds are there ? For sure Chrono Mesmer and necro , for the others i think that power builds usually are more effective . So there is no problem with conditions in spvp . If you have problem with them you have a wrong build. And in any case builds are done to kill. Condi builds have to let you kill as power, otherwise, if you want a real balance, you have to cut all the damage … condition damage and direct damage also …..
PS .. i don’t play condi .
The condition system does need to be revamped in my opinion. And Resistance needs to be toned down. Even though ANet won’t admit it, I do believe that part of the reason condi builds have access to large bursts is because of resistance granting immunity to all condis, and bursting before they can pop it off is the most reliable way to fight anyone with access to resistance.
At the same time, the boon system needs to be revamped as well. Boons are too easy to access for every class at the moment
So you are implying that power build can’t kill just as fast?
People simply feel powerless against conditions because before they could be ignored, to a point at least.
I personally don’t think that conditions themselves are overtuned but maybe a few skills applying them (Reapershroud 4 for example).
I agree with this and I also agree with the person who said about conditions 2 years ago were bad because they could be overwritten so easily like burn and poison with less damaging ones from power builds.
However I do think conditions in general have come to a point where they’re instead of being tactically applied get applied without any thought. This isn’t a stab at the current condition builds, though necros seem to apply 6 conditions extremely fast, this is about how cover conditions from power builds cover the damaging conditions of condition based builds.
As an example if there’s a DH in a fight and you trigger a trap you will get 6s of cripple and usually 1.5s slow. Add in the spear and you have burn, that’s 3 conditions. If you were already fighting a condi mesmer and had some confusion and torment on you you will cleanse the DHs conditions as they were applied last and you could have 2-3 other conditions on you depending on sigils.
I simply think we have too many conditions being applied in general not specifically condition damage builds or damage components that make it a lot harder to cleanse what you need to cleanse.
Yeah, the real problem is that conditions were originally intended to supplement direct damage, not replace it altogether. A “condition build” should really be a hybrid build, where the ideal is that power/prec/ferocity deals equivalent damage to power/malice/expertise, with the latter sacrificing some burst potential for slightly higher sustained DPS and better overall utility.
In that context, I do think a lot of condition application (especially burning) is over-tuned, which has in turn created a situation where condi cleanse has become too necessary, too powerful, and too prolific.
(edited by Einlanzer.1627)
Play a burn guardian (admittedly one of the builds that qualifies for your complaint) and go against a team with a support ele and come back with the result. I promise you the conditions don’t feel over tuned.
Are conditions strong 1v1, yes. Not more so than a power build though. Like power the application can be avoided. However, the damage can also be avoided after the fact even after a square hit right in the face.
However, most strong builds (outside theif and Rev) have condi removal of some kind that can be supplemented to counter the damage of conditions by heals, condi removal from other teammates (ele/guardian), and resistance.
I enjoy burn guardian cause it punishes thieves (which are slightly overtuned at the moment), block spam as a reaction rather than proactive defense, and most importantly, multiple forms of damage avoidance. (burn still ticks through Renewed Focus, Endure Pain, theif and Rev evade spam, ect.)
Plus, it’s also nice to down someone, start a stomp, watch them get ressed by a kittenty teammate of mine going hard down , then finish the stomp when the go down from the condis they still have. Nothing frustrates me more than a fight being turned around or a kill lost cause one of my allies died a split second before my target does.
They punish poor decisions, passive defense that do not directly counter them, and apply pressure on targets that ignore them.
we are on pvp forum , not wvw. In spvp how many condi builds are there ? For sure Chrono Mesmer and necro , for the others i think that power builds usually are more effective . So there is no problem with conditions in spvp . If you have problem with them you have a wrong build. And in any case builds are done to kill. Condi builds have to let you kill as power, otherwise, if you want a real balance, you have to cut all the damage … condition damage and direct damage also …..
PS .. i don’t play condi .
1. You should look for the definition of “side note” (WvW). Of course we are talking about PvP.
2. Conditions are broken atm. Their full potential is only held back due to amulet removals in the past and some silly resistance mechanics, which is lazy design.
3. Every class has a viable condition build when it comes to pure fighting capabilities. You just don’t see them in ESL because of tournament team comp. rules – no one cares about that on Solo Q.
(edited by KrHome.1920)
I think part of the reason that people feel conditions are so powerful is because the system is setup so that so called “cover conditions” are dis-proportionally powerful. In which case a proper condition cleanse hierarchy should be implemented by ANet so that the most dangerous conditions (based on a predefined table) are always cleansed first.
This would instantly be a huge blow to condi builds because their most dangerous conditions would be cleansed first. So if this were to happen, I would like to see condition application looked at. Specifically, toning down how many are applied at once, since some are obviously cover conditions in some builds (ideally just remove most of those), and increasing damage/duration of the ones that remain.
The reason condition builds feel so much more OP than power builds is because you can apply the conditions and then run. With power builds, you have to stay active, but conditions are more passive. At least you still have to hit with the condition applying skills, but once you do, if your target doesn’t have resistance or enough cleansing, they’re done for while being effectively unable to hit you because you can just sit from far away. Or worse yet, there are those builds that can condi bomb you and then sit on you because they have so much regen or sustain (Warriors, Thieves, Rangers). Other professions need to stay far away to survive while bombing you (Mesmers, Necros, Engis). And why doesn’t condi Rev work? Because it can bomb you but it doesn’t have the same level of sustain or the ability to kite effectively while letting the condis do the work.
Condis are passive and thus they shouldn’t do as much damage as power attacks. However, we shouldn’t butcher condi builds. They need to exist because some professions are weak to them, and without conditions, those builds would reign supreme. Plus, more flavour is added to the game with more build variety. Conditions do need a nerf, but it must be done carefully.
You can either nerf conditions slightly across the board, or you can reduce the ability for professions to “bomb” you with conditions and do 2-3k dps and then play passively. I think one of the best solutions may be to reduce the duration of conditions. Don’t reduce the duration on all of them. Only some last too long, others are fine.
- Confusion is fine overall.
- Torment could use a slight shave.
- Poison should be shorter because of the healing reduction it does, but overall it’s fine. Maybe instead, just reduce how easily it can be stacked.
- Bleeding lasts way too long, especially with how easily it’s stacked.
- Burning lasts too long with condition duration builds and can be stacked too easily by Guardians and Engis.
Some none damage conditions could use some duration fixes too.
- Weakness is fine.
- Slow is fine.
- Vulnerability duration could use a slight shave, but it might be better to reduce its output by some specs.
- Immobilize is fine with some specs and far too OP with others.
- Crippled could be reduced.
- Chilled should be flat out changed. It should reduce movement speed by 33% and CD slowing rate by 33%, to match Alacrity.
- Blind should only ever last a few seconds, even from Thieves.
You need to be careful when nerfing duration so that specs don’t require expertise in order for them to be viable, but they shouldn’t be OP with expertise either. So, changes to how easily some professions can stack condis will need to be made, as well as how damaging some conditions are too. An actual balance needs to be made.
By the way, some power builds are OP too, but at least they have to be active to do their damage.
Condition damage is passive because you can apply it and run away? So on a power build you’re saying that when you land 5k damage on a single hit you need to stand by your opponent and make sure he is ok with damage you just hit him with? Someone should tell Thieves that they are cheating then. Whether it be power or Condi damage, you have to be hit to take damage. You can avoid condi damage the same way you avoid power damage with some exceptions. You can reduce power damage with things like protection and weakness, and you can negate (not reduce) condi damage with things like resistance and cleanses. Power damage deals it all up front, condi damage has to be stacked and then tick over the course of its duration.
Yet somehow we have decided that power damage is active and condi damage is passive. Oh and fyi, certain classes like Necro and Warrior need to be in melee to condi bomb you, just as other classes like ranger and such can burst you with power damage from range, so that argument is also flawed.
The only thing that needs to be addressed is the rate at which some professions can apply conditions, and then cleanses need to be looked at in return. Same goes for aoe power damage that is being tossed around and the insane rates that boons are being handed out. We don’t have a condi problem, we have a general balance problem.
Aside from Necros and Mesmers no other class can burst you with condis (well, maybe burn Guard, but they are a one trick pony).
The only condition that seems wrong is confussion, due is a low risk-high reward form of damage that makes prevents you from playing, like that decks from Magic TG that removed cards from your hand.
I’d like to point out the different between attrition condis and burst condis.
Burn is burst condi, it’s short duration but large damage.
Bleed and poison are attrition condis, they take a long time to kill a target.
Condi classes built around burst (like burn guard) don’t have many cover condis.
Condi classes built around attrition (like necro) have lots of cover condis.
And that is how it should be.
though necros seem to apply 6 conditions extremely fast,
Necro condi bombs involve a combination of corrupts and transfers. The condi bombs look scary but then you realize that most of the condis are utility condis like vuln, cripple, and weakness and the damage you are taking from the necro condi bomb is not as high as it first looks.
Sanity is for the weak minded.
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The reason condition builds feel so much more OP than power builds is because you can apply the conditions and then run. With power builds, you have to stay active, but conditions are more passive. At least you still have to hit with the condition applying skills, but once you do, if your target doesn’t have resistance or enough cleansing, they’re done for while being effectively unable to hit you because you can just sit from far away. Or worse yet, there are those builds that can condi bomb you and then sit on you because they have so much regen or sustain (Warriors, Thieves, Rangers). Other professions need to stay far away to survive while bombing you (Mesmers, Necros, Engis). And why doesn’t condi Rev work? Because it can bomb you but it doesn’t have the same level of sustain or the ability to kite effectively while letting the condis do the work.
Condis are passive and thus they shouldn’t do as much damage as power attacks. However, we shouldn’t butcher condi builds. They need to exist because some professions are weak to them, and without conditions, those builds would reign supreme. Plus, more flavour is added to the game with more build variety. Conditions do need a nerf, but it must be done carefully.
You can either nerf conditions slightly across the board, or you can reduce the ability for professions to “bomb” you with conditions and do 2-3k dps and then play passively. I think one of the best solutions may be to reduce the duration of conditions. Don’t reduce the duration on all of them. Only some last too long, others are fine.
- Confusion is fine overall.
- Torment could use a slight shave.
- Poison should be shorter because of the healing reduction it does, but overall it’s fine. Maybe instead, just reduce how easily it can be stacked.
- Bleeding lasts way too long, especially with how easily it’s stacked.
- Burning lasts too long with condition duration builds and can be stacked too easily by Guardians and Engis.Some none damage conditions could use some duration fixes too.
- Weakness is fine.
- Slow is fine.
- Vulnerability duration could use a slight shave, but it might be better to reduce its output by some specs.
- Immobilize is fine with some specs and far too OP with others.
- Crippled could be reduced.
- Chilled should be flat out changed. It should reduce movement speed by 33% and CD slowing rate by 33%, to match Alacrity.
- Blind should only ever last a few seconds, even from Thieves.You need to be careful when nerfing duration so that specs don’t require expertise in order for them to be viable, but they shouldn’t be OP with expertise either. So, changes to how easily some professions can stack condis will need to be made, as well as how damaging some conditions are too. An actual balance needs to be made.
By the way, some power builds are OP too, but at least they have to be active to do their damage.
false argumentations
make a little suposition
someone whith a power build have to hit you 10 times to kill you whith condi build have to hit you the same amount of times to build that condi burts, but the power build insta kills you and the condi build had to wait Y seconds for condi ticks to aply and kill you, skill and active play is the same but having a big counter on your head saying you will be dead in 10,9…..2,1,now while the enemy dances around you makes the biased impresion of passive game( and big impotence )when is the oposite, the condi player has killed you (aplied the condi stack that will kill you while your condiclear is in CD) and have to survive that seconds extra to not be killed, while a power player havent to do that extra effort, after hitting you are dead period
other think is how in this moments some profesions had acces to combined condi bombs of milliads of low staked condis so perfectly mixed that penalizes you even for breathing (confusion + torment)
in my opinion condi damage is ok, condi aplication and cleanse must be reworked to play around a toon aplying less conditions (1-2 max) and working to build high stacks to burst or keeping med stacked to presure , and massive cleans reduced to be a valuable resource for the times you had to play vs more than one condi toon apliing diferent conditios
Comes back after 2 year break, dies against people who have been active, calls everyone noobs and asks everyone to be nerfed.
If you played the game actively since release you would know conditions have been highly over tuned from the previous “DOT” status to a burst status.
I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.
….. And Elementalist.
Comes back after 2 year break, dies against people who have been active, calls everyone noobs and asks everyone to be nerfed.
If you played the game actively since release you would know conditions have been highly over tuned from the previous “DOT” status to a burst status.
Burn was always a burst condi.
Also all non-burn condi builds are less bursty than their power counterparts.
Sanity is for the weak minded.
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I think more skills need to have their functionality changed for each game mode. they did this in gw1, started to do it here, I know you hate to hear this but give it a bit of time.
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Comes back after 2 year break, dies against people who have been active, calls everyone noobs and asks everyone to be nerfed.
If you played the game actively since release you would know conditions have been highly over tuned from the previous “DOT” status to a burst status.
Burn was always a burst condi.
Also all non-burn condi builds are less bursty than their power counterparts.
Burn was the high damage condition but it never used to stack the way it does now, you could add duration to the burn but it was a steady tick of 700 roughly (dot), not 5.6k a tick (burst).
I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.
….. And Elementalist.
(edited by sephiroth.4217)
Comes back after 2 year break, dies against people who have been active, calls everyone noobs and asks everyone to be nerfed.
If you played the game actively since release you would know conditions have been highly over tuned from the previous “DOT” status to a burst status.
Burn was always a burst condi.
Also all non-burn condi builds are less bursty than their power counterparts.
Burn was the high damage condition but it never used to stack the way it does now, you could add duration to the burn but it was a steady tick of 700 roughly, not 5.6k a tick.
It’s now a burst condition.
You’ll notice that burn has a really really low duration compared to attrition condis like bleed.
Sanity is for the weak minded.
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I must admit, I fail to see the point have having condition damage if it can kill just as fast, only requires one stat to be successful, and is naturally tanky because of it.
Then I remember that things doing a lot of damage with an over abundance of defensive options is kind of standard and why no one wants to watch this game.
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“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
Comes back after 2 year break, dies against people who have been active, calls everyone noobs and asks everyone to be nerfed.
If you played the game actively since release you would know conditions have been highly over tuned from the previous “DOT” status to a burst status.
Burn was always a burst condi.
Also all non-burn condi builds are less bursty than their power counterparts.
Burn was the high damage condition but it never used to stack the way it does now, you could add duration to the burn but it was a steady tick of 700 roughly, not 5.6k a tick.
It’s now a burst condition.
You’ll notice that burn has a really really low duration compared to attrition condis like bleed.
Yes, it’s now a burst condition, like most conditions, like OP is complaining about.
I already had my whinge about it so to speak but I do agree with OP, I’ve just accepted it a long time ago and keep hoping for the best in terms of this game.
Burns also don’t need long durations, 3 seconds is enough to kill someone not paying attention to their condition bar.
Shortly after they made the changes to conditions, they went and nerfed Ele Dagger offhand Ring Of Fire because people kept killing themselves by running over the fields too many times but Purging Flames from Guardian that gets dropped on someones head from range remained untouched.
I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.
….. And Elementalist.
(edited by sephiroth.4217)
Burn is still the only burst condition (and maybe confusion against stupid targets that keep spamming skills) and its still not much compared to what powerbuilds can pull off.
Also keep in mind that there is a lot more healing in the game now, so you need higher dmg to kill stuff. Put one stack of the old burn on current warrior and he would take zero dmg, because it would just get outhealed.
I feel like damaging conditions have more or less lost their meaning in the current game. It’s near impossible for me to make a decision based on what conditions are currently afflicting me because there are just too many that kill too quickly. Each condition on it’s own is probably fine, but it’s the fact that condi builds have access to so many conditions that make them a problem. It’s just… unfun to try and fight these types of builds.
Some examples:
Torment? I should try to move less to take less damage from this.
Bleeding? Does slow damage over time, maybe I can save my cleanses for more threatening conditions.
Confusion? Spamming fast skills will hurt me, lets try to use fewer, more impactful skills.
Poison? Healing won’t work as well, I should try to clear that before healing myself.
Burning? Does high damage quickly, now might be a good time to use condition removal.
Each of these on their own? Fine. There’s a meaningful decision that can be made to combat each of these. The problem is when a class can apply multiple stacks of all of these (and more) with a few button presses. Suddenly, the gameplay goes out the window and it becomes “Gotta clear all these red squares off my UI quick before I die in a couple seconds.” And even then, you clear out those conditions and they’re usually back on you again in almost no time.
I would honestly like to see classes’ access to some conditions reduced, and then you could probably even bump the damage up on them somewhat. Not a straight nerf to conditions, but a change so that there’s time for players on both sides of the fight to make meaningful decisions regarding what conditions to apply, and how to defend against them.
Necro condi bombs involve a combination of corrupts and transfers. The condi bombs look scary but then you realize that most of the condis are utility condis like vuln, cripple, and weakness and the damage you are taking from the necro condi bomb is not as high as it first looks.
Don’t get me wrong I know a lot are debuff conditions or utility or whatever people want to call them however the point I was making is these other conditions are pumped out like rabbits. These cover the dangerous ones that really will kill you but it can be very difficult to clear and cannot be targeted specifically for a cleanse a lot of the time.
Necro condi bombs involve a combination of corrupts and transfers. The condi bombs look scary but then you realize that most of the condis are utility condis like vuln, cripple, and weakness and the damage you are taking from the necro condi bomb is not as high as it first looks.
Don’t get me wrong I know a lot are debuff conditions or utility or whatever people want to call them however the point I was making is these other conditions are pumped out like rabbits. These cover the dangerous ones that really will kill you but it can be very difficult to clear and cannot be targeted specifically for a cleanse a lot of the time.
Necro’s damage comes from bleed and poison both of which are extremely low damage condis, that require large amounts of time to kill someone.
If necros couldn’t cover condi necros would be non-viable because they would never be able to apply damage.
Sanity is for the weak minded.
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how many meta builds are based on conditions and how many are based on bunker/direct damage ?
Currently?
Only Chronophantasma Shatter among the meta builds uses Conditions for Damage, but you’re going to run into Rabid Macebow Burst Warriors, Carrion Procmancers/Corruptionmancers, Burn Guards and Evade-spamming Condi Thieves anyways because even if they’re not “Meta”, they work in solo and duo queue.
But in the meta, Condis have mostly been traded for massive Direct Damage burst specs such as GS/Mace Zerker Berserkers and Power Axe Boonstrip Reapers.
Warrior – Wardancer | Guardian – Lorekeeper | Revenant – Vindicator |
Thief – Duelist | Ranger – Strider | Engineer – Technician |
Elementalist – Spellweaver | Necromancer – Warlock | Mesmer – Trickster |
Thief – Duelist | Ranger – Strider | Engineer – Technician |
Elementalist – Spellweaver | Necromancer – Warlock | Mesmer – Trickster |
I would honestly like to see classes’ access to some conditions reduced, and then you could probably even bump the damage up on them somewhat. Not a straight nerf to conditions, but a change so that there’s time for players on both sides of the fight to make meaningful decisions regarding what conditions to apply, and how to defend against them.
this is good, but condi classes would need cover condis and/or more application of whatever condi they specialize in to be viable. maybe cleanses could be reworked to clear the biggest damaging one first, then the longest lasting soft cc etc.
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(edited by Stand The Wall.6987)
The biggest problem of players complaining about conditions damage is because they don’t think they should be killed by condition damage.
The main reason after the conditions able to kill is just because no one want to use something that grant you nothing.
Before the condi rework there was not a single condition build in game, no one used it (unless for few weeks of dhuumfire or ranger spirits, immediatly nerfed to the ground). They was used few times with bunker builds, that’s the reason back to the condi amulets with more than one defensive stat.
To grant more build variability ANet made the great choice to make conditions viable to kill people, removing the stack limit, making poison and burn stackable and granting to confusion a little amount of damage/sec.
But also ANet introduced Resistance, a boon able to make you ignore your conditions effects and damage and granting the perfect chance to kill every single condi user you see on your way easy and fast. (and they introduced it on the warrior, a class made to be weak to conditions… Devs choice…)
Then, they seen that condi amulets was too much tanky, then they removed all the bunerous ones and left the ones granting you only a single defensive stat (unless Sage, that no one use).
To make even better balance they added amulets with both the direct damage potential and a good defensive stat (or twoo: Mender amulet).
Now we have two possible source of damage, two ways to protect you from the enemy damage (example: protection and condi removal or direct damage immunity and Resistance) and amulets granting you good stats for both the source of damage.
More balanced than that..!!!!
What do you want???
Necro condi bombs involve a combination of corrupts and transfers. The condi bombs look scary but then you realize that most of the condis are utility condis like vuln, cripple, and weakness and the damage you are taking from the necro condi bomb is not as high as it first looks.
Don’t get me wrong I know a lot are debuff conditions or utility or whatever people want to call them however the point I was making is these other conditions are pumped out like rabbits. These cover the dangerous ones that really will kill you but it can be very difficult to clear and cannot be targeted specifically for a cleanse a lot of the time.
Necro’s damage comes from bleed and poison both of which are extremely low damage condis, that require large amounts of time to kill someone.
If necros couldn’t cover condi necros would be non-viable because they would never be able to apply damage.
If the condition system was reworked as a whole to lower access to condis in each build, and specifically to lower the ability of condi classes to apply cover condis (but not remove entirely, just lower) then I would like to see Necro’s condition skills adjusted because of reasons similar to this. But I don’t think 1 class should stop the whole system from being reworked, because I don’t think the system is in a good spot right now. Some conditions are way more powerful than others are, cleanses can’t keep up with cover conditions whatsoever, a single boon allows you to completely ignore condition classes in their entirety. Its just a mess.
The biggest problem of players complaining about conditions damage is because they don’t think they should be killed by condition damage.
this is the main issue here. people don’t want condi to be a viable damage source. currently it is, although power is still vastly more popular & more widely played. power has more immediate & often larger burst, hence it’s prevalence.
condi isn’t any harder to play against, both apply damage in the same way.
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(edited by choovanski.5462)
In the first place condi system should not be based on how many condi you have, but on what condi you have, something like “cover condition” should not exist.
I am also astonished on how they innovate Conditions, but as oppose, does it really need nerfing on its current state? in spite of previews difficulty against sustainability of each profession back then and if i recall correctly that is on Season 0.5 if memory serves me right?
[Urge]
Between a master and apprentice, i would love to see the differences.
Between a master and apprentice, i would love to see the differences.
When comparing condis to direct damage people forget few things:
1. condis ignore toughness/armor. You could argue that people have condi cleanse or resistance but same goes for blocks/protection etc. vs direct dmg.
2. condis have side effects like healing reduction or preventing player from casting skills because they were meant as utility originally and not burst damage. Imagine backstab would stun you or put your heal on extra CD – yeaaaah, this is exactly how condis work atm.
3. condis require 1 stat to work where for proper direct damage you need at least 2 stats, 3 stats ideally.
Overall i think they shot themself in the knee when they allowed certain condis stack and increased their damage. Condis became so absurd that anti-condi measurements were needed and so powercreep was introduced in form of resistance and passive condi cleanses. There is no going back from this anymore.
I think Anet won’t change the damage condis do, however in this case condis need to lose their utility with more stacks, e.g. the more poison stacks you have the less (exponentially) is healing debuff or the less damage do confusion stacks if target casts a spell. It would be nightmare to programm (dot damage is generally nightmare to programm) but, as i said, devs created such rather unconfortable situation themself. Of course they can just ignore the issue :/
All is Vain~
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1. Condi ignores thoughness and protection – power ignores cleanses and resistance. The first two things are more common/passive/easier to use, the latter two can be more powerful though, because they can negate up to 100% of the dmg. Everything else (blocks, evades, blinds, …) works against both.
2. The side effects from condis are the same for power and condi builds.
3. Soldier amulet was a thing in the past, so power can work with only 1 stat. Power dmg benefits a lot from precison and ferocity, which makes those stats so strong but not always mandatory. Condi builds benefit from condi dmg and expertise and sometimes also from precision. 3 stats again. The gain from those stats might be less compared to power builds, because additional duration can be 100% negated by cleanses while critical hits deal always more dmg than normal hits.
1. Condi ignores thoughness and protection – power ignores cleanses and resistance. The first two things are more common/passive/easier to use, the latter two can be more powerful though, because they can negate up to 100% of the dmg. Everything else (blocks, evades, blinds, …) works against both.
2. The side effects from condis are the same for power and condi builds.
3. Soldier amulet was a thing in the past, so power can work with only 1 stat. Power dmg benefits a lot from precison and ferocity, which makes those stats so strong but not always mandatory. Condi builds benefit from condi dmg and expertise and sometimes also from precision. 3 stats again. The gain from those stats might be less compared to power builds, because additional duration can be 100% negated by cleanses while critical hits deal always more dmg than normal hits.
Good post! Only direct damage benefits from critical; conditions cannot critically hit and that by design. Hybrids of this type are higher risk/reward builds (e.g. rampager’s, viper’s, etc.)
Kyrie eleison…Dies irae, dies illa…Quando judex est venturus
1. Condi ignores thoughness and protection – power ignores cleanses and resistance. The first two things are more common/passive/easier to use, the latter two can be more powerful though, because they can negate up to 100% of the dmg. Everything else (blocks, evades, blinds, …) works against both.
2. The side effects from condis are the same for power and condi builds.
3. Soldier amulet was a thing in the past, so power can work with only 1 stat. Power dmg benefits a lot from precison and ferocity, which makes those stats so strong but not always mandatory. Condi builds benefit from condi dmg and expertise and sometimes also from precision. 3 stats again. The gain from those stats might be less compared to power builds, because additional duration can be 100% negated by cleanses while critical hits deal always more dmg than normal hits.
Good post! Only direct damage benefits from critical; conditions cannot critically hit and that by design. Hybrids of this type are higher risk/reward builds (e.g. rampager’s, viper’s, etc.)
In return, there are plentiful traits and sigils that all proc additional Conditions on Critical Hits, allowing you to stack more Conditions on your target in bursts, for instance.
Warrior – Wardancer | Guardian – Lorekeeper | Revenant – Vindicator |
Thief – Duelist | Ranger – Strider | Engineer – Technician |
Elementalist – Spellweaver | Necromancer – Warlock | Mesmer – Trickster |
Thief – Duelist | Ranger – Strider | Engineer – Technician |
Elementalist – Spellweaver | Necromancer – Warlock | Mesmer – Trickster |
1. Condi ignores thoughness and protection – power ignores cleanses and resistance. The first two things are more common/passive/easier to use, the latter two can be more powerful though, because they can negate up to 100% of the dmg. Everything else (blocks, evades, blinds, …) works against both.
2. The side effects from condis are the same for power and condi builds.
3. Soldier amulet was a thing in the past, so power can work with only 1 stat. Power dmg benefits a lot from precison and ferocity, which makes those stats so strong but not always mandatory. Condi builds benefit from condi dmg and expertise and sometimes also from precision. 3 stats again. The gain from those stats might be less compared to power builds, because additional duration can be 100% negated by cleanses while critical hits deal always more dmg than normal hits.
Good post! Only direct damage benefits from critical; conditions cannot critically hit and that by design. Hybrids of this type are higher risk/reward builds (e.g. rampager’s, viper’s, etc.)
In return, there are plentiful traits and sigils that all proc additional Conditions on Critical Hits, allowing you to stack more Conditions on your target in bursts, for instance.
Good point and true, but without some sort of condition damage rating to back it, it’s damage will be negligible. Otherwise, just pointing out that conditions do not critical and do not benefit from critical directly, so that more people don’t think condition damage is out of control.
Kyrie eleison…Dies irae, dies illa…Quando judex est venturus
What have they done? They still did not figure out that balance should be done with PvP in mind and another balance for PvE and another balance for WvW.
Every time Anet fix something for a game mode, they usually break it for the others. They only recently started to try and balance for PvP only. WvW is still the child that they kick in order to keep PvP-Child happy.
‘’roaming condition meta my friends’’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFoiGSiizHI
When comparing condis to direct damage people forget few things:
1. condis ignore toughness/armor. You could argue that people have condi cleanse or resistance but same goes for blocks/protection etc. vs direct dmg.
2. condis have side effects like healing reduction or preventing player from casting skills because they were meant as utility originally and not burst damage. Imagine backstab would stun you or put your heal on extra CD – yeaaaah, this is exactly how condis work atm.
3. condis require 1 stat to work where for proper direct damage you need at least 2 stats, 3 stats ideally.Overall i think they shot themself in the knee when they allowed certain condis stack and increased their damage. Condis became so absurd that anti-condi measurements were needed and so powercreep was introduced in form of resistance and passive condi cleanses. There is no going back from this anymore.
I think Anet won’t change the damage condis do, however in this case condis need to lose their utility with more stacks, e.g. the more poison stacks you have the less (exponentially) is healing debuff or the less damage do confusion stacks if target casts a spell. It would be nightmare to programm (dot damage is generally nightmare to programm) but, as i said, devs created such rather unconfortable situation themself. Of course they can just ignore the issue :/
1 blocks block condis equal, you had to be hit to get a condi
2 not all condis have side efects burning, bleeding haven’t
I’d like to point out the different between attrition condis and burst condis.
Burn is burst condi, it’s short duration but large damage.
Bleed and poison are attrition condis, they take a long time to kill a target.Condi classes built around burst (like burn guard) don’t have many cover condis.
Condi classes built around attrition (like necro) have lots of cover condis.
And that is how it should be.though necros seem to apply 6 conditions extremely fast,
Necro condi bombs involve a combination of corrupts and transfers. The condi bombs look scary but then you realize that most of the condis are utility condis like vuln, cripple, and weakness and the damage you are taking from the necro condi bomb is not as high as it first looks.
If condi builds were that weak compared to power builds..you would not see this type of thread as there would be no need.
-Anti condi runes, condiclear traits…still not enough when the enemy team made up of 5 condi builds constantly applies 3-4 condis with AA or short CD skills/utilites which are AoE most of the times.
They can stay on the point spamming condis that quickly eat at your HP with nothing that you can do other than use your 20s CD min condi clear that will clear 1-2 useless cover condis applied 1s later by AA triggering traits/sigils.
But despite all…here we are with the 100th thread asking to take a hard look at condis in this game when all forget that condis were buffed to make them useful in PvE against bosses with 2million HP and were not designed for PvP
Every thread like this get swamped by the cape crusaders in defense of condi builds that apparently are that much weaker respect to power..-_-
Once again I don’t actually think conditions are in a bad spot, it’s just a few skills that need tuning down slightly. The main culprit though is that HoT brought power creep in damage, defences but also in conditions applied by power builds. This isn’t a problem per say but it gets hard to cleanse the slowly building 7 bleeds and 4 poison when you have 3 or 4 other control conditions being applied consistently from power classes.
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