Nerf Celestial Already
Nerfing ele’s damage further would make the class really boring to play imo. d/d playstyle is already boring enough as is.
Well maybe that way eles would try to spend some traits into offensive traitlines and use offensive amulets?
Well maybe that way eles would try to spend some traits into offensive traitlines and use offensive amulets?
Offensive eles are thieves/mesmers meat. As long as those two professions reign supreme in zerker department, ele is forced into bunker/bruiser.
Well maybe that way eles would try to spend some traits into offensive traitlines and use offensive amulets?
Offensive eles are thieves/mesmers meat. As long as those two professions reign supreme in zerker department, ele is forced into bunker/bruiser.
But everytime someone asks for a balance/nerf to zerker mesmer and thief a crowd of players come QQing on the forums.
Nerfing ele’s damage further would make the class really boring to play imo. d/d playstyle is already boring enough as is.
Well maybe that way eles would try to spend some traits into offensive traitlines and use offensive amulets?
So tell me and everyone else what are the offensive traits that would be useful and what you would give up in the water or arcana trees to get them.
Nerfing ele’s damage further would make the class really boring to play imo. d/d playstyle is already boring enough as is.
Well maybe that way eles would try to spend some traits into offensive traitlines and use offensive amulets?
Not possible because anet intentionally designed ele to be extremely squishy but gave them traits/utilities to be tanky, aka forced into 6 water 6 arcane 3 cantrips until the end of time.
-snip-
1. You’ve said this several times, but I don’t understand why it’s a bad thing that Eles get high burning uptime on Drake’s Breath. I think the nerf was justified that has been given, but Ele has to still be able to provide some sustained damage.
2. Every class can get rewards from weapon swapping, depending on sigils and traiting. I don’t see why Ele should be excluded from those benefits simply because they do not have a simple weaponswap. Having attunement swap benefits also encourages—or forces—Eles to use their swap critically.
3. Frost Aura has a 40s cd as it is, and has a really obvious tell, like every other aura. As a class with the lowest health pool and armor tier, Eles need to be able to counter melee burst with auras, boons, and traits that they can use actively.
4. Cleansing Water synergies well with Soothing Disruption, and I think this combination make it one of the more skill-reliant traits available to Eles by allowing or forcing them to use cantrips to counter condition burst. I disagree that this is “passive.”
5. I like Elemental Shielding because, as an active trait, it gives me more control over my build and allows me to use my traits critically, like Cleansing Water. This trait is also countered by any sort of boonrip.
6. I can see why people don’t like Renewing Stamina, but I’ve never considered Ele vigor uptime to be a major balance issue. Also, like the protection from Elemental Shielding, it’s countered by boonrip.
My end argument is this: If you want to specialize into support/sustain, you should excel in one and be good in another. That’s it. You shouldn’t excel not only in the tree’s you’ve invested in but also other aspects of combat(cc/dmg/mobility). My example before was Bunker Guardian and how that was the case of having to specialize and being sub par at everything else. No one profession should be able to do EVERYTHING exceptionally well.
I think the point of view that D/D Cele Eles do everything exceptionally well is a matter of opinion. They excel in sustain, and provide stellar support in teamfights. While they can provide decent cc, damage, and mobility, those are all functions that can be performed significantly better by other classes.
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It is a bad thing since burning is the highest dmg condition in the game and with such easy access to it, it makes literally zero sense. Even though Engineer’s have a random crit-proc it’s still only single-target based and STILL has a lower duration overall with runes factored in.
Except not every profession is rewarded with kit-swapping. The example of sigils is a moot point since everyone has access to it.
It has an obvious tell but having the only counter be, “don’t attack” is dumb. I’ve dealt with low health since the beginning(Guardian here), it doesn’t mean I should have copious amounts of boons given to me.
I was leaning more towards Soothing wave. Not to mention removing conditions when applied to yourself and/or allies makes it incredibly powerful.
You make it seem like every profession has access to constant boonstrip, this is obviously not the case, a poor argument at best.
Again, see my argument above about boon-strip.
Sorry dude, your defense of EVERYTHING I’ve suggested leads me to assume your bias is out and in the open very clearly.
Edit: Once again, I have zero issue giving the Elementalist more innate defense’s(whether it be more health and/or armor).
(edited by Arken.3725)
The issue is passive gameplay.
I play Mes since beta, and have been playing it in PvP too for about 2 years. I’m still learning a lot of things about the class, but I can consider myself a veteran Mes player already (1,6k games). I know how to adapt my rotations, how to burst quickly, how to use every weapon, and most important: how to kite and avoid almost all damage from any enemy.
But when it comes to passive procs its just stupid, and no matter how well I do, there are randoms burns/bleeds/poisons procs everywhere and I just can’t counterplay it or avoid it all, because yeah passive gameplay just happens and I have to deal with it kittenter Mes that has 0 con removal, and in the end of the fight at the log combat after I die there are 1xk burn dmg / 1xk bleed dmg and 0 other sources of dmg.
Then get some passive gameplay and add it to the baby first amulet: Cele, and you will have lot of room for mistakes and incentive to keep being carried by kitten t.h.a.t j.u.s.t h.a.p.p.e.n.s with 0 effort ¯\(?)/¯.
This game is full of passives that save your kitten all the time, and it is just not good for a game that is based on Action Combat. You know why Mes and Thieves are almost non existent in the meta? Yeah, they lack some of the strongest passive gameplay that other classes have. But one of the biggest examples of how a class can be underpowered by not having passive gameplay: Necros, that have 0 vigor, 0 protection, 0 regen, and almost 0 passive con removal (heal, Staff, 4 Scepter and one signet? All skills that require correct usage) or other source of passive gameplay.
(edited by inhearth.2038)
The issue is passive gameplay.
I play Mes since beta, and have been playing it in PvP too for about 2 years. I’m still learning a lot of things about the class, but I can consider myself a veteran Mes player already (1,6k games). I know how to adapt my rotations, how to burst quickly, how to use every weapon, and most important: how to kite and avoid almost all damage from any enemy.
But when it comes to passive procs its just stupid, and no matter how well I do, there are randoms burns/bleeds/poisons procs everywhere and I just can’t counterplay it or avoid it all, because yeah passive gameplay just happens and I have to deal with it kittenter Mes that has 0 con removal, and in the end of the fight at the log combat after I die there are 1xk burn dmg / 1xk bleed dmg and 0 other sources of dmg.
Then get some passive gameplay and add it to the baby first amulet: Cele, and you will have lot of room for mistakes and incentive to keep being carried by kitten t.h.a.t j.u.s.t h.a.p.p.e.n.s with 0 effort ¯\(?)/¯.
This game is full of passives that save your kitten all the time, and it is just not good for a game that is based on Action Combat. You know why Mes and Thieves are almost non existent in the meta? Yeah, they lack some of the strongest passive gameplay that other classes have. But one of the biggest examples of how a class can be underpowered by not having passive gameplay: Necros, that have 0 vigor, 0 protection, 0 regen, and almost 0 passive con removal (heal, Staff, 4 Scepter and one signet? All skills that require correct usage) or other source of passive gameplay.
Are you saying mesmer has no passive or rng? Tell me more about how you get 1 free clone every dodge with no internal cd or how your ilusions inflict bleeding on crit or about the fire+air sigil, etc..
Should Ele’s Cleansing Water have a 1s ICD again?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-April-15-2014/first#post3957343
Cleansing Water: This trait no longer has an internal cooldown while in PvP.
I think it was removed previously.. but two Ele’s grouped together will abuse that trait.
I don’t think their damage should be touched imo.
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Are you saying mesmer has no passive or rng? Tell me more about how you get 1 free clone every dodge with no internal cd or how your ilusions inflict bleeding on crit or about the fire+air sigil, etc..
It’s not a “free” clone because you have to use a trait slot for it.
Also, clones only bleed on crit if you have spent points in dueling.
I know you have no clue about how mesmer works but you should really try to write your comments to at least appear informed.
As for celestial, i think it’s not OP as some say, but looking at PvP lately it should probably be nerfed just for the sake of the game.
Celestials are perfect to queue up alone, self-sufficent, no need to rely on team mates. But if you take the team aspect of it, PvP becomes less interesting.
(edited by serenke.4806)
It is a bad thing since burning is the highest dmg condition in the game and with such easy access to it, it makes literally zero sense. Even though Engineer’s have a random crit-proc it’s still only single-target based and STILL has a lower duration overall with runes factored in.
Engies have an access to more conditions than elementalists. Why do you think there’s no viable condition build for eles if they have such an easy access to the highest damaging condition? Same as guardians.
>Do you guys prefer this meta to past metas?
Kinda yes, since it potentially opens team-comps to consider all classes, reducing the discrimination other classes expirience (if all classes had viable cele builds)
Kinda no, since the classes identity kinda becomes foggy and slips into the background, due to cele builds all serving as bruiser role, with individual animations. It’s a more open meta, but stale to watch or play.
>If you could rebalance the game so ALL of these comps were viable, would you? Do you want to face meta viable Decap/bunker/berserker teams?
Yes. The cele amulett is the epitome of balancing a class’ capabilities in its own, but specialising towards a single role (decap / bunker / dps) should always come with rewarding outcomes, on the cost of obvious incapabilities. In essence, cele should and must be able to compete with specialized amulets, but should never dominate them, nor get dominated.
>Do you like this about the celestial meta? Do you prefer the rotational requirements of other metas or the mechanical requirements of the celestial meta?
I enjoy both and would love to find a-net a golden path in the middle between both metas. tune down the impact of conditions, so they become supportive dots or utility effects, rather than complete shutdowns. also increase base-values of skills, and lessen their dramatic scaling (healing-skills are nicely balanced with healing power all across the classes for example, but power and condi-dmg do scale way too drastically with some skills, which is one of the reasons why cele currently dominates that dramatically).
>Do you want celestial builds for all classes so that the role that elementalist/engineer/warrior fill right now could be filled by any class?
Again, yes and no.
It would be awesome to give all classes the option to run a cele bruiser build, but more-so it is imprtant to maintain a class’ identity.
Necros are natural counter-offensive tools against condi-play.
Thiefs should always be able to jump in, work their magic and leave as fast as they appeared.
Guardians should always be able to maintain a groups survivability.
Warriors should bring blunt offensive force and offensive group-buffs, while maintaining their very own safety.
Mesmers should always be able to confuse and mess with opponents offensive mechanics, while bringing group-mobility to the table
Ranges should always be able to roam and snipe single targets, be it with arrows from afar or movement-impairing traps and mobility in close range
Engineers should always be able to deny areas, be it with explosives, turrets or blunt cc’s
And eles should always stay the physical weak, but extremely offensive class that they are, allowing for focused burst, aerial support/healing or areal denial with raw dmg.
If I had a saying in how classes should be balanced in general, I’d keep most as it is right now, but would allow each class to profit nicely from defensive stats if they choose to pick them, change damaging conditions to scale with a players’ toughness, and increase the direct base-dmg of most skills, while also tuning down their scaling with power.
Currently the game feels like “go burst or bust”, reducing most encounters to 10-15sec of ability-spam, while on the other hand cele builds negate any identity a class formerly had, just leaving them with unique attack-patterns and different animations. this must change in order for gw2 to truly become e-sports ready (not that I care about e-sports that much, but since that is a-nets proclaimed goal, they should consider drastic changes in their balancing to reach it).
I’m not slugging through 4 pages of intense arguing. I’ll just state my simple opinion:
I don’t think the celestial amulet itself is OP. I think if changes should be made, it should be to specific Ele and Engi skills that make them OP when utilizing celestial amulet. Do NOT nerf the amulet itself.
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
It is a bad thing since burning is the highest dmg condition in the game and with such easy access to it, it makes literally zero sense. Even though Engineer’s have a random crit-proc it’s still only single-target based and STILL has a lower duration overall with runes factored in.
Engies have an access to more conditions than elementalists. Why do you think there’s no viable condition build for eles if they have such an easy access to the highest damaging condition? Same as guardians.
Engies have more access but shorter duration burning. This is a fact. In fact, when you die to an Ele, the vast majority of the time it’s due to burning.
Engies have more access but shorter duration burning. This is a fact. In fact, when you die to an Ele, the vast majority of the time it’s due to burning.
Because you fight him over a long period of time and because the combat log doesn’t care what was the source of the burn. It could be drake’s breath, burning speed, ring of fire, cleansing fire, fire shield, magnetic grasp (with ring of fire), evasive arcana or arcane precision. That’s why condition damage is usually on top of the death log instead of a direct damage. Heck, if you die to a shoutbow, burning is on top as well.
There are two classes who have the best access to burning yet only those two classes have non-viable condition damage build (plus maybe a thief who is the only class who doesn’t have an access to burning). Coincidence?
I’m not slugging through 4 pages of intense arguing. I’ll just state my simple opinion:
I don’t think the celestial amulet itself is OP. I think if changes should be made, it should be to specific Ele and Engi skills that make them OP when utilizing celestial amulet. Do NOT nerf the amulet itself.
Celestial amulet gives ~20% more raw stats than others. Obviously, it should give more because that’s a game design with other amulets but perhaps it should be shaved a bit.
I’m not slugging through 4 pages of intense arguing. I’ll just state my simple opinion:
I don’t think the celestial amulet itself is OP. I think if changes should be made, it should be to specific Ele and Engi skills that make them OP when utilizing celestial amulet. Do NOT nerf the amulet itself.
Celestial amulet gives ~20% more raw stats than others. Obviously, it should give more because that’s a game design with other amulets but perhaps it should be shaved a bit.
But what would be acceptable “shaving”? Celestial will go back to being a useless amulet in pvp. I occasionally and effectively use celestial in unranked for a few of my Mesmer builds. Why should those builds suffer because there’s two classes that are able to abuse celestial amulet based on the OP design of their select skills? Once again, I think if you nerf some of the specific issues with elementalist and I guess engineer on a profession basis, celestial amulet becomes balanced.
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
the tears are real and they feed me ;3
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Celestial amulet gives ~20% more raw stats than others. Obviously, it should give more because that’s a game design with other amulets but perhaps it should be shaved a bit.
No.
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But what would be acceptable “shaving”? Celestial will go back to being a useless amulet in pvp. I occasionally and effectively use celestial in unranked for a few of my Mesmer builds. Why should those builds suffer because there’s two classes that are able to abuse celestial amulet based on the OP design of their select skills? Once again, I think if you nerf some of the specific issues with elementalist and I guess engineer on a profession basis, celestial amulet becomes balanced.
Just a few percents, nothing extreme, kinda like healing signet shaving, when everyone said it’s pointless to nerf it just by 7% but since then I haven’t seen any complaints about it.
Both engie and elementalist were most likely designed with celestial gear in mind. They are typical hybrids. An elementalist just by swapping attunements change the playstyle and optimal gear/stats that should be used in that specific attunement (e.g. healing power in water, power with ferocity/precision in air, power/condition damage in fire). Skills are not the main issue here. Also, let’s not forget about certain sigils like doom which might be used to circumvent intended lack of an access to poison.
So for some I am gathering some find the old version is useless, but for others the new version is too strong and there isn’t really a inbetween right now?
Now look at Litany of Wrath, well that engineer put up that Gear Shield and you lose so much healing, …
That’s exactly how Litany of Wrath should work!
It’s a risk/reward skill. If you use it well, you can heal a lot. If you use it poorly – like against an engi who has gear shield off cooldown – it sucks. You can argue the numbers need tweaked, but the design is solid.
The design is awful. Guard is the most kitable class in the game, so sticking to targets is hard enough. Litany is just straight up worse than Shelter.
And yes, if one item is the undisputed king of PvP it should indeed be nerfed, as much as engies and eles would hate they can’t be immortal anymore.
So doing some maths on this whole celestial thing and whether or not there is an overrepresentation of it in the game. I came up with the following from the WTS qualifiers for both EU and NA. Of the 45 people (9 teams total) streamed between EU and NA:
- 29 of those players used a celestial amulet
- Those same 29 players played either ele, engi, or warrior
- Elementalist was the most represented class between EU and NA
- Engi was most represented on NA and second most represented over all tied with warrior.
- Thief was the third most represented class with 5 players total on thief
- Mesmer guardian, and necro were all tied for fourth most represented class (mesmers only having Supcutie NA, no necros played WTS quals EU.)
- Rangers were the least represented class with only Eura, and Genyen playing ranger NA.
Some things to note. This does not take into account any profession swapping after the first game, I did one player: one profession. If the player swapped to a different class at any time they were still only marked as listing their initial profession on the first match.
What this shows, over half of the players that played in WTS (64%) were using the celestial amulet, the second most used was berserkers, with other random amulets (Nos using Carrion) sprinkled in here and there.
My feelings on celestial are already pretty clear, it doesn’t allow classes to be jacks of all trades, it helps three specific classes turn into masters of all trades. If you think that a meta where 64% of the players are using the same amulet (and for the most part the same builds), leaving any other build to be useless is okay. Then go a head and tell me these classes with this amulet is okay. If not, don’t stop telling ANET what is wrong with this until they fix it.
My feelings on celestial are already pretty clear, it doesn’t allow classes to be jacks of all trades, it helps three specific classes turn into masters of all trades.
I feel like this is pretty accurate.
My feelings on celestial are already pretty clear, it doesn’t allow classes to be jacks of all trades, it helps three specific classes turn into masters of all trades.
I feel like this is pretty accurate.
yep this is basically how it is i will add something tho just to deter trolls it allows 3 specific classes to utalise a specific build to become master of all trades
My feelings on celestial are already pretty clear, it doesn’t allow classes to be jacks of all trades, it helps three specific classes turn into masters of all trades.
I feel like this is pretty accurate.
yep this is basically how it is i will add something tho just to deter trolls it allows 3 specific classes to utalise a specific build to become master of all trades
Awesome, so play it, and see how masterful the build is…
EDIT : And don’t forget to record.
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I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.
- For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
- For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…
Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.
Trying to fight the good fight is admirable, some just won’t listen. I’ll list some changes I think should help.
Ele:
Drake’s breath: Reduce to 1 second per tick. This skill has an absurdly low cd attached to it on top of too much burning. No other profession can apply as much burning in an aoe(or single-target).
Elemental attunement: Reduce the boon duration from 5 to 3 seconds. Even if Elementalist’s spec fully into boon duration, it’ll be about 50% which is still quite a bit.
Frozen aura: Reduce duration from 7 to 5 seconds.
Cleansing water: Put back the 5 second ICD.
Elemental Shielding: Reduce duration from 3 to 2 seconds.
Renewing Stamina: Increase ICD to 10 seconds.
Just some suggestions. Obviously the Ele/Engie community won’t like these but I think some of these would certainly help bringing them in line.
Basically your aim is to reduce the passive defense/offense ratio of the ele regardless of the amulet used, fair enough.
Can’t say your suggestions are misguided, they serve a purpose that I can see clearly even though I was asking for a representation of in combat situation but nvm.
As I have stated, your changes would reduce the ele ability to passively sustain himself during a fight and passively rely on a condi to do dmg for him, less passive gameplay and more active gameplay, excellent, if this is the way you think you should have no problem with the following suggestions aimed at maintaining the offensive potential of the ele who has now lost the ability to remain in a fight for very long.
-You like active condi clear then…
Cleansing Wave Dagger OH skill 5
Now removes two conditions from one condition, the CD is 40s, so no problem here
-You like active combat then…
Fire Grab Dagger OH skill5
Added a wind up animation of 1/2s, cone attack pattern increased from 45 degree to 160 degree
Churning Earth Dagger OH skill 5
Two options:
-remove the rooting aspect, the 3s channelling gives way more than the necessary counterplay, stun/block/daze the ele or pay huge consequences
-Increase the cripple effect to 2s so that it’s not that easy to walk out of a channelling ele
Ride the lightning and Earthquake Dagger OH skill 4-5
Increase base dmg by 100%- from 340 base to 680 base dmg ( 1.2 dmg coefficient ) , the skills have respectively 40 and kitten CD so increasing the dmg should be no problem at all, ride the lightning has the most obvious animation in the game…no need for further justifications really.
The aim of these suggestions is to keep D/D ele on the ball without rely on passive gameplay, the less passive gameplay the more active gameplay is required
-snip
They can’t fix what is not broken, and that would be most players attitude.
In all these talks of celestial OP and nerf requests, I never see mentioned the possible skill level of the player behind the ele. Automatically assume that every player behind an ele is simply a terribad noob carried by an amulet..will be your downfall and it will bring you back on the forum..to complain about some other aspect of the ele
Over half of the players that played in WTS (64%) were using the celestial amulet, the second most used was berserkers, with other random amulets (Nos using Carrion) sprinkled in here and there.
My feelings on celestial are already pretty clear, it doesn’t allow classes to be jacks of all trades, it helps three specific classes turn into masters of all trades. If you think that a meta where 64% of the players are using the same amulet (and for the most part the same builds), leaving any other build to be useless is okay. Then go a head and tell me these classes with this amulet is okay. If not, don’t stop telling ANET what is wrong with this until they fix it.
Thanks for that info Jportell. It’s time the perfect trio gets an appropriate nerf. There’s a reason why a few teams utilize two Ele’s instead of one. Awesome support + damage while doing great 1v1, able to bunk + high mobility. Oh they all can do that? What’s the biggest differences?
Engi is ‘ok’ because he has very little condi cleanses.
Syncs well with Ele’s team cleanses.
Cele War is ‘ok’ because he has very little condi cleanses.
Syncs well with Ele’s team cleanses.
Two Ele’s completely repel the War and Engi’s counter builds.
Most of Ele’s Team cleanses are 240 radius. Two Ele’s mainly use Lightning Flash + Ride the Lightning for emergency rotations, cc, etc.
The Nerf
Cleansing Wave’s radius needs to be 180 instead of 240. Like how Guardians are having to use Flashing Blade + Torch to pull off its activated,180 radius burn ability, it’s time Ele’s receive the same treatment. Let them be forced to use Lightning Flash to pull off said combos.
Or
The team cleanse Regen on Cantrips needs to be a fixed 180 radius effect.
Or
Water Attunement itself needs to be 180.
Something has to give.
EDIT
I don’t necessarily agree with Cleansing Water for the simple fact that they wouldn’t do as hawt in 1v1’s. I said to nerf it before, but I take it back.
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(edited by Saiyan.1704)
only there is no team cleanse on soothing disruption as the trait is for personal use only…..do we play the same class?
The team cleanse comes from elemental attunement( which grants aoe regen) and it’s a single condi….
And there is staff also that use elemental attunement, the 240 radius is necessary for staff ele but guess people tends to become forgetful in their crusade for revenge on d/d
This ‘Jack/Master of all trades’ saying was burned and buried a long time ago in the history of MMOs. It should stay there, if you ask me.
The fact of the matter is that conquest dictates each team picks at least two bunkers/node fighters. Celestial Ele/War (Ele especially) is an utterly superior alternative to the previous builds which were pure bunker/support.
Clerics, Settlers, Soldiers, Sentinels, these defensive archetypes once had a purpose, such as Bunker Guardians, Eles, Tanky Rangers, Decap Engineer (good riddance), but now simply are replaced by Cele Eles/War across the board.
Bunkers are so dead right now. Cele Eles/Warriors have replaced every single one.
Engineer shares the same amulet, but does a roamer’s role and can’t compete for those 2 team slots for on-point fighters, currently 100% dominated by Cele Ele/War.
If Bunker Guardian/Warrior was brought back, and/or other support focused builds (Support Staff Ele, Support Engi) were brought up from Garbage tier, a team could have 2 pure bunkers/support and 3 roamers instead of 2 Cele off-bunkers and 3 roamers.
Is that better though, I’m not sure. What’s more fun to watch, 2 Cele Eles battling, or 2 Bunker res-bot Warriors, for example? I think the Cele Eles.. but what people really want is build diversity. Why should Cele Ele as a package be simply better than:
- Bunker Guardian, Virtues or Altruistic Healing.
- Bunker (Res-Bot) Warrior
- Bunker Engi (So far only Decap/Turrets have surfaced, ew)
- Bunker Beastmaster Ranger
- Support Staff Ele
- Support Spirit Ranger
^These are just the builds that have actually seen use in previous metas throughout the years. None have survived, there is only Cele Ele! (Cough, occasional Cele War is good). That’s a big lost opportunity, in terms of build diversity.
Roamers are not perfect, (Engi OP) but much more balanced than the Bunker/support options are right now.
I figure since we see pretty much next to zero dedicated support and dedicated bunkers in competitive games on NA (EU still reps some), that should raise some flags.
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Why should Cele Ele as a package be simply better
Why should an entire profession be balanced around a single amulet?
The celestial amulet simply magnify the design concept of the ele, which is jack of all trades and master of none, a concept which very unfortunately made it in GW2 and got pinned down on ele for some unknown reason despite the fierce opposition of the GW1 old ele population, that wanted eles to remain master of a single element at any given time.
If you nerf the entire profession because of celestial amulet, what will happen to that small minority of players who don’t give a kitten about your esport and want to play the profession the way they want?
If you want dedicated roles then nerf the amulet that allows ele to increase dramatically their ability to supplement any role, don’t take away the possibility of the ele to use any other amulet, that would be absurd.
You nerf condi dmg, sustain and dmg on ele because of cele amulet..then give me a single reason after that to go:
- zerker ele
- cleric ele
- settler ele
You know what @Chaith, you’re right! The concept of jack of all trades has never truly worked. At this point I would like the ask the devs a favour delete the GW2 ele and bring back the GW1 ele with its single element mechanic
The devs have proved that they can’t balance the ele at this point, it’s either cold or it’s hot..so just delete it and everybody happy.
Classes that are like 3 classes in one that can do everything at once shouldn’t exist in PVP.
The devs have proved that they can’t balance the ele at this point, it’s either cold or it’s hot..so just delete it and everybody happy.
You’re right, but really it’s simply D/D Ele that you’re describing.
I think that Arenanet can get it right eventually, the last time they just annihilated Cleansing Water foolishly, breaking the build sending it into garbage tier.
The expansion this year will turn every concept of balance we have on its head, so we will perhaps even see an alternative to D/D Cele in PvP.
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Are you saying mesmer has no passive or rng? Tell me more about how you get 1 free clone every dodge with no internal cd or how your ilusions inflict bleeding on crit or about the fire+air sigil, etc..
It’s not a “free” clone because you have to use a trait slot for it.
Also, clones only bleed on crit if you have spent points in dueling.
I know you have no clue about how mesmer works but you should really try to write your comments to at least appear informed.As for celestial, i think it’s not OP as some say, but looking at PvP lately it should probably be nerfed just for the sake of the game.
Celestials are perfect to queue up alone, self-sufficent, no need to rely on team mates. But if you take the team aspect of it, PvP becomes less interesting.
Oh first you qq about " randoms burns/bleeds/poisons procs everywhere " and passive stuff then after I point out the passive stuff in your class you justify because of traits? Well all other classes have passives because some sigil or trait. A mesmer using air+fire+doom has 3 passive only from the sigils. Mesmer as passive as any other class. Deal with it.
You run a build with no condi clear because you choose to do so. Mesmer have immunes, blinks, stealths, clones and does very easy to land ranged dmg don’t need condi clear.
The expansion this year will turn every concept of balance we have on its head, so we will perhaps even see an alternative to D/D Cele in PvP.
This…
I stopped with my regular debates/complaints prior to the announcement, and got genuinly surprised when they said they wanted to introduce a new class and new class mechanics – something that will, no matter how impactful it will feel to your class, throw balance into the blender, and create a delicious mess of things…
It will take months before people even realize the true potential of a Revenant alone I suspect, and with the specializations, you can see a lot of chaos going to be created…
The concerns might be real for the current meta, but changing it for but a few months makes no sense either… Who knows, maybe everyone will be complaining about Shaman’s Druid being the most broken thing since Dhuumfire
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only there is no team cleanse on soothing disruption as the trait is for personal use only…..do we play the same class?
Nope! Made and played Ele once, just to understand their traits and playing style. I’m bound to make mistakes.. so thanks for the correction :p
The devs have proved that they can’t balance the ele at this point, it’s either cold or it’s hot..so just delete it and everybody happy.
I personally don’t want to nerf Ele’s, just their team composition. In other words, I think their a balanced classs until you place them with a self sustaining comp like Engi, Warrior, and another Ele. They do everything so well, it’s hard to replace them.
I understamd this game is purposely imbalanced, it promotes creative rotational play, interesting team compositions, to beat said comp. The issue I have is, 1) There’s hardly any creative play, or team comp, to face this team . 2) I’m a strong believer in that win percentage makes the best team, not Team A counters Team B, so Team A is best in game.
Even if there was a counter comp for The Abjured, you need to be good enough to beat every other non Celestial team composition class. You may have a 90%+ win rate vs Abjured and a 60% win rate vs everyone else. While the Abjured has a 90%+ win rate across the board… against every single comp they come across.
Celestial Comps are destined to make the best Conquest Teams. That’s what i’m not ok with.
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(edited by Saiyan.1704)
So doing some maths on this whole celestial thing and whether or not there is an overrepresentation of it in the game. I came up with the following from the WTS qualifiers for both EU and NA. Of the 45 people (9 teams total) streamed between EU and NA:
- 29 of those players used a celestial amulet
- Those same 29 players played either ele, engi, or warrior
- Elementalist was the most represented class between EU and NA
- Engi was most represented on NA and second most represented over all tied with warrior.
- Thief was the third most represented class with 5 players total on thief
- Mesmer guardian, and necro were all tied for fourth most represented class (mesmers only having Supcutie NA, no necros played WTS quals EU.)
- Rangers were the least represented class with only Eura, and Genyen playing ranger NA.
Some things to note. This does not take into account any profession swapping after the first game, I did one player: one profession. If the player swapped to a different class at any time they were still only marked as listing their initial profession on the first match.
What this shows, over half of the players that played in WTS (64%) were using the celestial amulet, the second most used was berserkers, with other random amulets (Nos using Carrion) sprinkled in here and there.
My feelings on celestial are already pretty clear, it doesn’t allow classes to be jacks of all trades, it helps three specific classes turn into masters of all trades. If you think that a meta where 64% of the players are using the same amulet (and for the most part the same builds), leaving any other build to be useless is okay. Then go a head and tell me these classes with this amulet is okay. If not, don’t stop telling ANET what is wrong with this until they fix it.
if gw2 devs had some decency, looking at these stats and old go4 cups, they would have banned cele ammu till balanced.
sadly they’ve none
We seem to be circling back around to Celestial Amulet being the culprit. It’s not the primary offender but it does accentuate the problem. I also believe that when HoT releases the state of balance will change, just not sure if for the better. Let me explain:
Ever since the GW2’s creation, every single iteration of balance has leaned towards a more tanky, self sustaining era of balance. We’ve went from the Berserker meta(my favorite) to the Condi-tank meta and finally, to the Celestial meta. Each time we’ve leaned towards more and more tankiness as well as encouraging more condition application vs. positioning and setting up burst.
The reason you see a lot of celestial is only because the abundance of d/d eles and engis. Those 2 builds happen to be optimal when running celestial. The problem again is not the stats is the d/d and engi skills.
Take a look at the numbers of non ele/engi that used celestial.
Nerf the amulet because of 2 builds and therefore hurting any other class build that try to use celestial is just dumb. Imagine if every time that they have decided to nerf thief they had nerfed zerker amulet instead?
remove some blast finishers and ele will be balanced. cele warrior does not feel overpowered to me, nor does cele engi.
remove some blast finishers and ele will be balanced. cele warrior does not feel overpowered to me, nor does cele engi.
Funny thing is a think there is a thread going on the Ele subforum asking for another skill to be made into a blast finisher.
My Suggestion to nerf cele would be
remove ferocity = lower burst combined with int sigil ( shoutbow engie )
remove healingpower = ele engie and shoutbow have good sustain anyway and with this its to superior
If healingpower got removed then sigil of doom needs a nerf, higher cd or lower duration
remove some blast finishers and ele will be balanced. cele warrior does not feel overpowered to me, nor does cele engi.
Funny thing is a think there is a thread going on the Ele subforum asking for another skill to be made into a blast finisher.
They were asking a blast finisher for staff. While d/d has 2 blast fields on weapon skills staff has only 1. If the ele is using staff it also doesn’t have perma vigor as d/d.
As for that I can’t think of many profession that between two weapon sets have that 2 blast finishers so I can’t really sympathize with them there.
I can only assume that their vigor trait was untouched due to being a major trait (whimsy logic at best as the profession is loath to avoid that traitline so the not like it is costing much) similarly to the endurance recover of signet of stamina that escape the systematic hunt for low investment sources of endurance recovery.
We seem to be circling back around to Celestial Amulet being the culprit. It’s not the primary offender but it does accentuate the problem. I also believe that when HoT releases the state of balance will change, just not sure if for the better. Let me explain:
Ever since the GW2’s creation, every single iteration of balance has leaned towards a more tanky, self sustaining era of balance. We’ve went from the Berserker meta(my favorite) to the Condi-tank meta and finally, to the Celestial meta. Each time we’ve leaned towards more and more tankiness as well as encouraging more condition application vs. positioning and setting up burst.
That’s mostly cuz in zerk era everything could be one shotted by thief-mes, hell even thief alone/ mes alone could shot everything ( mes still can).
Point is instead of buffing active defenses aNet went easymode buffing passive kitten like healing signet/vigor/prot uptime and healz.
Joke.
I can only assume that their vigor trait was untouched due to being a major trait (whimsy logic at best as the profession is loath to avoid that traitline so the not like it is costing much) similarly to the endurance recover of signet of stamina that escape the systematic hunt for low investment sources of endurance recovery.
Actually, people pleaded not to nerf renewing stamina, not for the sake of d/d, but for any other ele build. The closest ele has to a competitive build outside of d/d is s/f, which already gets farmed by a decent s/d thief. Taking away more dodging capability just destroys that build.
This is the problem with trying to nerf d/d ele: EVERY ele build uses the same traits to get some survivability because 80% of their ability to survive comes from those traits. D/D stacks every defensive trait it can, while any other ele build struggles to survive. Trying to nerf d/d can take ele straight to trash bin because if you overdo it, and make d/d unviable, then there are no builds that ele can truly play that aren’t just thief food. (Side note, this explanation just makes me mad how much thief, as a class, hurts build viability in this game)
Elementalist, trait-wise is a complete mess. The whole class is balanced around some incredibly OP traits, and as such there is next to no build diversity. Trying to nerf those traits not only hurts the meta spec, but also any semblance of competitiveness other specs can get. This is why eles defend their defensive traits so much – without them the class goes strait to C-tier.
Point is instead of buffing active defenses aNet went easymode buffing passive kitten like healing signet/vigor/prot uptime and healz.
Active defenses are useless against thief as a squishy unless they are on a short enough CD to be cycled very quickly. Case in point: s/f ele (which is mostly active defensive skills) can just be farmed by a decent s/d thief who is patient enough to force long-CD invulns. The combination of ports that ignore LOS (acting like on-demand psuedo-invuln) and stealth (which allows you to decide when to open a fight with a large burst, and can be an invuln when combined with ports to gtfo) creates an atmosphere where high passive defenses are required in order to reliably fight. Add high evasion up-time to the mix and you have a mess of a class that prevents a zerker meta from every happening. As long as thief exists as it is, you will NEVER have a zerker meta (unless they start giving stealth more counterplay and putting revealed on more skills).