Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]
(edited by xDudisx.5914)
Nerf Celestial Already
That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.
How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?
Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.
What makes a PvP build celestial then?
Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!
Why would you wanna bold something only to make an incorrect statement about it?
Ok guys, let’s just say Cele engi has too much of everything.
but in the end, we may only need to change one area just to bring it down from having too much of everything.False statements like this are part of the perception problem.
How do they have too much stability?
How do they have too much condition cleanse? (they have the least of all profession)
How do they have too much stealth?
How do they have too much might stacking?
None of those things are in the linked build the are complaining about
As pointed out before, the problem isn’t the skills themselves. It is the fact that too many of those skills either lack an animation for counter play avoidance, or lack a cast time for interrupt options.
Your right as well that IP is one of those aspects of the problem by lacking a counter play tell of any kind. The only problem with singling it out, is that plenty of traits across all profession offer passive damage or effect that others avoid because it might effect their profession negatively.
You are breaking things apart again..
we are talking of (having too much of everything) as a whole.
NOT being top in each and every individul areas.
if you understand what it means.
and tbh i have no intend to continue this pointless conversation, as in we already have an agreement in what should be nerfed.
which means this pointless conversation is pure personal perspective.
(edited by Simon.3794)
Again? That is not what everything means.
Unless it all fits into one build it means nothing. All the build that was posted for targeting offers is a lot off CC and average damage.
Stop trying to pretend players are using a mythical 6/6/6/6/6 build in PvP.
Again? That is not what everything means.
Unless it all fits into one build it means nothing. All the build that was posted for targeting offers is a lot off CC and average damage.
Stop trying to pretend players are using a mythical 6/6/6/6/6 build in PvP.
Im sorry, i thought we already have clarified multiple times it’s cele rifle build we are talking about here. tell me a thing which i listed in my previous comments which not include in the builds, or you just simply dissagree on what should be nerfed (which is agreed by every one else including engineers in this thread)
Or you are just simply being kitten over the word “everything”, then im sorry, i’ll change the word to “a lot of things” and lets move on. like i said it’s simple personal perspective, this conversation has no out come.
That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.
How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?
Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.
What makes a PvP build celestial then?
Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!
Why would you wanna bold something only to make an incorrect statement about it?
Looking at meta pvp builds and condition clear, engis have one skill that clears 3 specific conditions, and a heal skill that clears 2 conditions.
Mesmers have…..
….. ………… …. Oh that’s right. Meta mesmer builds have 0 condition clear. Mesmers are only useful for portal to their team (there is one skill slot taken), blink is taken because we need to be able to get out of trouble some way, and decoy is taken because we have no other way to break target in the current build (unless they take torch but bleh torch).
When it comes to agreement, engineer has a few skills that everyone pretty much unanimously thinks is OP (Overcharged Shot, Slick Shoes, Gear Block). Even warrior, players can mostly agree that war banner is a very strong skill.
- What skills can both sides of this argument agree on are too strong and COULD be shaved for elementalist? I highly doubt a massive nerf to celestial elementalists is going to happen, so what can we agree is OP or lacks counterplay for elementalist?
Main: Raine Avina (Engineer)
Message me any time in game.
Message me any time in game.
When it comes to agreement, engineer has a few skills that everyone pretty much unanimously thinks is OP (Overcharged Shot, Slick Shoes, Gear Block). Even warrior, players can mostly agree that war banner is a very strong skill.
- What skills can both sides of this argument agree on are too strong and COULD be shaved for elementalist? I highly doubt a massive nerf to celestial elementalists is going to happen, so what can we agree is OP or lacks counterplay for elementalist?
The might stacking. In PVP only reduce might duration from 20s to 10s when an ele stacks might. A celestial ele that puts nothing into power has more power damage than a berserkers amulet.
Elemental attunement, definitely.
without talking about other boons it already offers.
5 seconds of protection for not only himself but every one around hin on a 10 seconds CD is ridic.
Again? That is not what everything means.
Unless it all fits into one build it means nothing. All the build that was posted for targeting offers is a lot off CC and average damage.
Stop trying to pretend players are using a mythical 6/6/6/6/6 build in PvP.
Im sorry, i thought we already have clarified multiple times it’s cele rifle build we are talking about here. tell me a thing which i listed in my previous comments which not include in the builds, or you just simply dissagree on what should be nerfed (which is agreed by every one else including engineers in this thread)
Or you are just simply being kitten over the word “everything”, then im sorry, i’ll change the word to “a lot of things” and lets move on. like i said it’s simple personal perspective, this conversation has no out come.
I already stated
As pointed out before, the problem isn’t the skills themselves. It is the fact that too many of those skills either lack an animation for counter play avoidance, or lack a cast time for interrupt options.
Your right as well that IP is one of those aspects of the problem by lacking a counter play tell of any kind. The only problem with singling it out, is that plenty of traits across all profession offer passive damage or effect that others avoid because it might effect their profession negatively.
As to what you are asking, I had trouble catching that as it appears there was a system edit for you. If you are asking if I was you to speak in realistic terms instead of strict hyperbole and unreasonable exaggeration, then my answer was yes. If you were saying something else, it wasn’t very clear with the censoring in there.
and Magnetic Grasp needs 3/4 cast time for counter play.
but even so, it still can’t change the huge utility advantage.
having blink on certain map is just op for a point holder(tanky) build
blink spots op.
(edited by Simon.3794)
That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.
How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?
Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.
What makes a PvP build celestial then?
Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!
Why would you wanna bold something only to make an incorrect statement about it?
Anyone that plays this game knows that when people say celestial users or celestial builds it is reffering to d/d ele rifle engi and war.They are the only 3 classes that use celestial in the meta. If you are new to the game I understand your lack of knowledge about it.
Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]
This ‘Jack/Master of all trades’ saying was burned and buried a long time ago in the history of MMOs. It should stay there, if you ask me.
The fact of the matter is that conquest dictates each team picks at least two bunkers/node fighters. Celestial Ele/War (Ele especially) is an utterly superior alternative to the previous builds which were pure bunker/support.
Clerics, Settlers, Soldiers, Sentinels, these defensive archetypes once had a purpose, such as Bunker Guardians, Eles, Tanky Rangers, Decap Engineer (good riddance), but now simply are replaced by Cele Eles/War across the board.
Bunkers are so dead right now. Cele Eles/Warriors have replaced every single one.
Engineer shares the same amulet, but does a roamer’s role and can’t compete for those 2 team slots for on-point fighters, currently 100% dominated by Cele Ele/War.
If Bunker Guardian/Warrior was brought back, and/or other support focused builds (Support Staff Ele, Support Engi) were brought up from Garbage tier, a team could have 2 pure bunkers/support and 3 roamers instead of 2 Cele off-bunkers and 3 roamers.
Is that better though, I’m not sure. What’s more fun to watch, 2 Cele Eles battling, or 2 Bunker res-bot Warriors, for example? I think the Cele Eles.. but what people really want is build diversity. Why should Cele Ele as a package be simply better than:
- Bunker Guardian, Virtues or Altruistic Healing.
- Bunker (Res-Bot) Warrior
- Bunker Engi (So far only Decap/Turrets have surfaced, ew)
- Bunker Beastmaster Ranger
- Support Staff Ele
- Support Spirit Ranger
^These are just the builds that have actually seen use in previous metas throughout the years. None have survived, there is only Cele Ele! (Cough, occasional Cele War is good). That’s a big lost opportunity, in terms of build diversity.
Roamers are not perfect, (Engi OP) but much more balanced than the Bunker/support options are right now.
I figure since we see pretty much next to zero dedicated support and dedicated bunkers in competitive games on NA (EU still reps some), that should raise some flags.
Here. Chaith summed it up 2 pages ago.
Celes are not OP. They are just the best at their role. If they were OP you’d have 5 of them on your team…
At the moment we have 2/3 roaming roles and 5 classes to fill that role. That is the problem.
I think ANET needs to move away from their defined class roles, because they are too limiting in a 5v5 conquest game.
They should be aiming for each class to have a dps/support/tank role. How else are you going to get 9 classes into 5 roles?
John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]
That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.
How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?
Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.
What makes a PvP build celestial then?
Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!
Why would you wanna bold something only to make an incorrect statement about it?
Anyone that plays this game knows that when people say celestial users or celestial builds it is reffering to d/d ele rifle engi and war.They are the only 3 classes that use celestial in the meta. If you are new to the game I understand your lack of knowledge about it.
Then why are you discussing a non meta build on the engineer? The true meta is Elixir S not Slick Shoes. So, I am not sure if your being intentionally hypocritical for comedic reasons or are contradicting yourself in the manner of cutting off your nose to spite your own face. Anyway, if you assume 1 single build is all that can define a “meta” build for a profession, then you probably shouldn’t come at folks so aggressively.
Point is, like it or not there are absolutely, variation and differences, that are "meta’ themselves with in the basic “meta” builds. If your adhering to only one strict build, and trying to do partial comparisons of only what is strong, while ignoring the weaknesses, then you have already exlude yourself from the real conversation.
A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
This ‘Jack/Master of all trades’ saying was burned and buried a long time ago in the history of MMOs. It should stay there, if you ask me.
The fact of the matter is that conquest dictates each team picks at least two bunkers/node fighters. Celestial Ele/War (Ele especially) is an utterly superior alternative to the previous builds which were pure bunker/support.
Clerics, Settlers, Soldiers, Sentinels, these defensive archetypes once had a purpose, such as Bunker Guardians, Eles, Tanky Rangers, Decap Engineer (good riddance), but now simply are replaced by Cele Eles/War across the board.
Bunkers are so dead right now. Cele Eles/Warriors have replaced every single one.
Engineer shares the same amulet, but does a roamer’s role and can’t compete for those 2 team slots for on-point fighters, currently 100% dominated by Cele Ele/War.
If Bunker Guardian/Warrior was brought back, and/or other support focused builds (Support Staff Ele, Support Engi) were brought up from Garbage tier, a team could have 2 pure bunkers/support and 3 roamers instead of 2 Cele off-bunkers and 3 roamers.
Is that better though, I’m not sure. What’s more fun to watch, 2 Cele Eles battling, or 2 Bunker res-bot Warriors, for example? I think the Cele Eles.. but what people really want is build diversity. Why should Cele Ele as a package be simply better than:
- Bunker Guardian, Virtues or Altruistic Healing.
- Bunker (Res-Bot) Warrior
- Bunker Engi (So far only Decap/Turrets have surfaced, ew)
- Bunker Beastmaster Ranger
- Support Staff Ele
- Support Spirit Ranger
^These are just the builds that have actually seen use in previous metas throughout the years. None have survived, there is only Cele Ele! (Cough, occasional Cele War is good). That’s a big lost opportunity, in terms of build diversity.
Roamers are not perfect, (Engi OP) but much more balanced than the Bunker/support options are right now.
I figure since we see pretty much next to zero dedicated support and dedicated bunkers in competitive games on NA (EU still reps some), that should raise some flags.
Here. Chaith summed it up 2 pages ago.
Celes are not OP. They are just the best at their role. If they were OP you’d have 5 of them on your team…
At the moment we have 2/3 roaming roles and 5 classes to fill that role. That is the problem.
I think ANET needs to move away from their defined class roles, because they are too limiting in a 5v5 conquest game.
They should be aiming for each class to have a dps/support/tank role. How else are you going to get 9 classes into 5 roles?
You do realise that best at their roles and kill off every single other builds also mean OP.
Cele ele is op as a point holder compare to every point holder out there.
and cele engi is just superior damage pressure then every same role build out there
and thief is just way better in terms of roaming around the map while mesmer is good alternative, it’s single mobility vs group mobility which is diversity inside a single role, but these are better then every other zerker roaming +1 fights builds out there.
This ‘Jack/Master of all trades’ saying was burned and buried a long time ago in the history of MMOs. It should stay there, if you ask me.
The fact of the matter is that conquest dictates each team picks at least two bunkers/node fighters. Celestial Ele/War (Ele especially) is an utterly superior alternative to the previous builds which were pure bunker/support.
Clerics, Settlers, Soldiers, Sentinels, these defensive archetypes once had a purpose, such as Bunker Guardians, Eles, Tanky Rangers, Decap Engineer (good riddance), but now simply are replaced by Cele Eles/War across the board.
Bunkers are so dead right now. Cele Eles/Warriors have replaced every single one.
Engineer shares the same amulet, but does a roamer’s role and can’t compete for those 2 team slots for on-point fighters, currently 100% dominated by Cele Ele/War.
If Bunker Guardian/Warrior was brought back, and/or other support focused builds (Support Staff Ele, Support Engi) were brought up from Garbage tier, a team could have 2 pure bunkers/support and 3 roamers instead of 2 Cele off-bunkers and 3 roamers.
Is that better though, I’m not sure. What’s more fun to watch, 2 Cele Eles battling, or 2 Bunker res-bot Warriors, for example? I think the Cele Eles.. but what people really want is build diversity. Why should Cele Ele as a package be simply better than:
- Bunker Guardian, Virtues or Altruistic Healing.
- Bunker (Res-Bot) Warrior
- Bunker Engi (So far only Decap/Turrets have surfaced, ew)
- Bunker Beastmaster Ranger
- Support Staff Ele
- Support Spirit Ranger
^These are just the builds that have actually seen use in previous metas throughout the years. None have survived, there is only Cele Ele! (Cough, occasional Cele War is good). That’s a big lost opportunity, in terms of build diversity.
Roamers are not perfect, (Engi OP) but much more balanced than the Bunker/support options are right now.
I figure since we see pretty much next to zero dedicated support and dedicated bunkers in competitive games on NA (EU still reps some), that should raise some flags.
Here. Chaith summed it up 2 pages ago.
Celes are not OP. They are just the best at their role. If they were OP you’d have 5 of them on your team…
At the moment we have 2/3 roaming roles and 5 classes to fill that role. That is the problem.
I think ANET needs to move away from their defined class roles, because they are too limiting in a 5v5 conquest game.
They should be aiming for each class to have a dps/support/tank role. How else are you going to get 9 classes into 5 roles?
You do realise that best at their roles and kill off every single other builds also mean OP.
Cele ele is op as a point holder compare to every point holder out there.
and cele engi is just superior damage pressure then every same role build out there
and thief is just way better in terms of roaming around the map while mesmer is good alternative, it’s single mobility vs group mobility which is diversity inside a single role, but these are better then every other zerker roaming +1 fights builds out there.
Yes but nerfing the cele’s or even thief isn’t going to magically bring balance, because not every class can perform the required roles.
Instead of saying:
“we’re going to make ranger best ranged dps”
“we’re going to make ele jack of all trades”
“we’re going to make thief the most mobile”
..they should be trying to give every class a dps/tank/support option.
John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]
You do realise that best at their roles and kill off every single other builds also mean OP.
Cele ele is op as a point holder compare to every point holder out there.
and cele engi is just superior damage pressure then every same role build out there
and thief is just way better in terms of roaming around the map while mesmer is good alternative, it’s single mobility vs group mobility which is diversity inside a single role, but these are better then every other zerker roaming +1 fights builds out there.
Are you suggesting you can beat every skill level of player and every build with either of your 3 beloved celestial builds? To m it seems as you are projecting a skill level difference that doesn’t exist. They do not innately “kill every single other build” as you appear to be suggesting.
The problems are very very different between the 3. Eles reasons from being problematic strike me as more a problem of over stacking boons and healing. Engineers problem strikes me as a lack of cast times and visual cues to allow for proper game play to counter them, and less the actual skills themselves. As to warriors, I feel that the might nerf effected them a bit more directly, but I do not personally feel they are directly OP.
As to thieves though, are you suggesting celestial thieves are a problem? First I really heard of this. If not, it a none cele build has no business in the discussion.
A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
(edited by coglin.1867)
That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.
How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?
Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.
What makes a PvP build celestial then?
Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!
Why would you wanna bold something only to make an incorrect statement about it?
Anyone that plays this game knows that when people say celestial users or celestial builds it is reffering to d/d ele rifle engi and war.They are the only 3 classes that use celestial in the meta. If you are new to the game I understand your lack of knowledge about it.
Then why are you discussing a non meta build on the engineer? The true meta is Elixir S not Slick Shoes. So, I am not sure if your being intentionally hypocritical for comedic reasons or are contradicting yourself in the manner of cutting off your nose to spite your own face. Anyway, if you assume 1 single build is all that can define a “meta” build for a profession, then you probably shouldn’t come at folks so aggressively.
Point is, like it or not there are absolutely, variation and differences, that are "meta’ themselves with in the basic “meta” builds. If your adhering to only one strict build, and trying to do partial comparisons of only what is strong, while ignoring the weaknesses, then you have already exlude yourself from the real conversation.
The meta engi can use slick shoes. The only one saying false things here is you. “Mediocre condi dmg” “Mediocre direct dmg” hahahahaha.
You are the one ignoring things here. Ignoring all the strong parts and talking like if engi was a weak class.
Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]
Specific class roles are toxic it’s no different than trinity. All roles should be available to all, I tough it was when I first saw the game but nope,even when they give you the options, those are broken and affect player base.
I see it differently stats>class. Who here can prove crit chance/damage are balanced? 3 stats doing same thing while others 1.. prove to me it’s balanced. Imagine a “zerker” spec with power+malice(condition duration+damage)+ boon duration using weakening and controls condis+offensive boons to deal burst instead of basic damage multipliers. Crit=" Oh no this doesn’t crit, I don’t crit enough to activate this,oh no my crit damage is useless since I have low crit". Who here likes that and can prove it’s balanced even a dev any of them? I DARE YOU.
Those two need to go,stats with gear/traits need to go as well then open customization in pvp. Of course it would need rework of boons,condition applications/system, traits,sigils etc. but isn’t it required? Have fun debating about celestial while little zerkers don’t get proper burst, the current system is based on chance, my proposition would result in setup>reward no bumps in between. They know their game hopefully and if they want the population to come back after every balance patch/expansion then that’s their choice and a bad one.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
(edited by Sagat.3285)
That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.
How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?
Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.
What makes a PvP build celestial then?
Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!
Why would you wanna bold something only to make an incorrect statement about it?
Anyone that plays this game knows that when people say celestial users or celestial builds it is reffering to d/d ele rifle engi and war.They are the only 3 classes that use celestial in the meta. If you are new to the game I understand your lack of knowledge about it.
Then why are you discussing a non meta build on the engineer? The true meta is Elixir S not Slick Shoes. So, I am not sure if your being intentionally hypocritical for comedic reasons or are contradicting yourself in the manner of cutting off your nose to spite your own face. Anyway, if you assume 1 single build is all that can define a “meta” build for a profession, then you probably shouldn’t come at folks so aggressively.
Point is, like it or not there are absolutely, variation and differences, that are "meta’ themselves with in the basic “meta” builds. If your adhering to only one strict build, and trying to do partial comparisons of only what is strong, while ignoring the weaknesses, then you have already exlude yourself from the real conversation.
The meta engi can use slick shoes. The only one saying false things here is you. “Mediocre condi dmg” “Mediocre direct dmg” hahahahaha.
You are the one ignoring things here. Ignoring all the strong parts and talking like if engi was a weak class.
I have not seen your math on damage comparisons. Where did you say you posted them?
When one of your pillars of complaints is a builds CC, the difference in slick shoes and Elixir S is massive. Particularly given that I can quote all of your previous post as referring to the engineer build as a singular celestial build, in this case. I am not ignoring anything actually. You are simply posting one thing, yet you appear to mean something different. Oddly enough, you approach it as if the community is at fault for not discerning the difference in what you said and what you meant.
A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.
How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?
Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.
What makes a PvP build celestial then?
Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!
Why would you wanna bold something only to make an incorrect statement about it?
Anyone that plays this game knows that when people say celestial users or celestial builds it is reffering to d/d ele rifle engi and war.They are the only 3 classes that use celestial in the meta. If you are new to the game I understand your lack of knowledge about it.
Then why are you discussing a non meta build on the engineer? The true meta is Elixir S not Slick Shoes. So, I am not sure if your being intentionally hypocritical for comedic reasons or are contradicting yourself in the manner of cutting off your nose to spite your own face. Anyway, if you assume 1 single build is all that can define a “meta” build for a profession, then you probably shouldn’t come at folks so aggressively.
Point is, like it or not there are absolutely, variation and differences, that are "meta’ themselves with in the basic “meta” builds. If your adhering to only one strict build, and trying to do partial comparisons of only what is strong, while ignoring the weaknesses, then you have already exlude yourself from the real conversation.
The meta engi can use slick shoes. The only one saying false things here is you. “Mediocre condi dmg” “Mediocre direct dmg” hahahahaha.
You are the one ignoring things here. Ignoring all the strong parts and talking like if engi was a weak class.
I have not seen your math on damage comparisons. Where did you say you posted them?
When one of your pillars of complaints is a builds CC, the difference in slick shoes and Elixir S is massive. Particularly given that I can quote all of your previous post as referring to the engineer build as a singular celestial build, in this case. I am not ignoring anything actually. You are simply posting one thing, yet you appear to mean something different. Oddly enough, you approach it as if the community is at fault for not discerning the difference in what you said and what you meant.
Where did you post your math calculations to say the dmg is mediocre? You made false claims and never posted anything to support them. But when anyone post something that is common sense you requests videos, pictures. The cooldowns and durations of the skills are on the wiki. Go learn something about your own class.
Oh so now you speak for the “community”. If the player does not know the meta that is not my problem. Even metabattle has the base build there.
Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]
(edited by xDudisx.5914)
The discussion seems to be hitting on a big point here:
Bunkers are not used much anymore.
So here’s my questions now:
- Is this because Cele is too strong or because bunkers are too weak?
- If bunkers are too weak, should the support be buffed so that Cele Ele doesn’t creep on it?
- If cele is too strong, what part of it is too strong? Should the defense go down and the support remain just as strong? Should the defense stay the same and the support potential go down? Is it the damage?
- On this note, would it help if some of the support that eles have be other ally only? For example, Cleansing Wave only removing conditions from allies or the healing on certain skills being less effective on the ele, but more effective on allies? Please take this as a concept, not a specific suggestion.
- The DPS role is taken up by pure DPS players still. While you don’t see mesmer/thief/ranger/guardian/necro as a DPS role as often as Cele Engi, you still see it plenty. That said, we sort of scoff at bunker guardians currently.
- Is this because the pure DPSers have a niche or because they excel at DPS enough that they overtake the cele engi role? For example, mesmer has an AMAZING burst, but they also have portal (their niche). If mesmer didn’t have portal, would you still take it? What about thief without stealth or power ranger without entangle?
- Do bunker roles need this niche (Some special skill that cannot be matched by other builds) or an increase in their ability to support allies (more heals/condi clears/boons)?
1 & 2: It’s not that bunkers are weak or Cele is strong. Cele doesn’t need to “DPS” as much as they just need to win 1v1’s and/or concentrate on survival and bunk long enough for reinforcements. Which they can, and can do quite well.
The rest.
DPS roles are taken by the Ele, because no other DPS class (celestials or off celestials) can sustain as well while also doing constant, respectable aoe damage, team support, and finally, be mobile in “oh crap” situations. We’ve seen this with Wakkey at Beijing. You could say he was the reason why Foefire’s mid was contested for the longest time. His Vigor and peels were insane in Middle’s big node area.
Proof
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1xGvbYnmbo#t=2385
Commentators @ 00:39:45 video time
“One thing I have noticed so far is that TCG has not had as good an openings as Abjured.
Almost every single game the Abjured is outplaying them early game and TCG is always trying to play catchup.
We saw that three man push into mid there, trying that early game into wakkey.
They weren’t able to pull it off as fast as they wanted to. In fact, it’s still neutral in mid right? We still have players back and forth and Wakkey is still alive here.”
“I think the thing we need to keep in mind is that the Abjured can make a lot more mistakes than TCG can. Like the smaller mistakes, like missed cooldowns. They can afford to make mistakes because they’re just built tankier.”
aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
(edited by Saiyan.1704)
How on earth are DPS roles taken by Ele? lol
How on earth are DPS roles taken by Ele? lol
Just meant you see more Celestial Ele’s than other DPS classes. Some comps run double Celestial Eles.
aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.
How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?
Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.
What makes a PvP build celestial then?
Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!
Why would you wanna bold something only to make an incorrect statement about it?
Anyone that plays this game knows that when people say celestial users or celestial builds it is reffering to d/d ele rifle engi and war.They are the only 3 classes that use celestial in the meta. If you are new to the game I understand your lack of knowledge about it.
Then why are you discussing a non meta build on the engineer? The true meta is Elixir S not Slick Shoes. So, I am not sure if your being intentionally hypocritical for comedic reasons or are contradicting yourself in the manner of cutting off your nose to spite your own face. Anyway, if you assume 1 single build is all that can define a “meta” build for a profession, then you probably shouldn’t come at folks so aggressively.
Point is, like it or not there are absolutely, variation and differences, that are "meta’ themselves with in the basic “meta” builds. If your adhering to only one strict build, and trying to do partial comparisons of only what is strong, while ignoring the weaknesses, then you have already exlude yourself from the real conversation.
The meta engi can use slick shoes. The only one saying false things here is you. “Mediocre condi dmg” “Mediocre direct dmg” hahahahaha.
You are the one ignoring things here. Ignoring all the strong parts and talking like if engi was a weak class.
I have not seen your math on damage comparisons. Where did you say you posted them?
When one of your pillars of complaints is a builds CC, the difference in slick shoes and Elixir S is massive. Particularly given that I can quote all of your previous post as referring to the engineer build as a singular celestial build, in this case. I am not ignoring anything actually. You are simply posting one thing, yet you appear to mean something different. Oddly enough, you approach it as if the community is at fault for not discerning the difference in what you said and what you meant.
Where did you post your math calculations to say the dmg is mediocre? You made false claims and never posted anything to support them. But when anyone post something that is common sense you requests videos, pictures. The cooldowns and durations of the skills are on the wiki. Go learn something about your own class.
Oh so now you speak for the “community”. If the player does not know the meta that is not my problem. Even metabattle has the base build there.
Well the fact that stat points are invested equally in condition damage, precision, and power, at significantly lower amount then other amulets, is very obvious. It has been broken down by myself, and several others in both engineer threads, this very sub forums.
Speaking for the community? No, not at all. Why do you assume so?
Thank you for posting that link, it absolutely supported my point. The previously posted build that was being discussed had Slick Shoes, not Elixir S, even EG makes it an entirely different play style and discussion as a whole. It is a very different discussion between the three utilities in the aspect of CC, which was one of the complaints. In professions with no weapon swap, there is a very dynamic and different discussion between the build you posted, and the one that was being discussed.
A video on what weak PvPer’s and WvWer’s want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
(edited by coglin.1867)
The discussion seems to be hitting on a big point here:
Bunkers are not used much anymore.
So here’s my questions now:
- Is this because Cele is too strong or because bunkers are too weak?
Cele (actualy ALL) builds do too much damage now. The 2x sigil procs just made it so bunkers can’t really keep up. Cele builds have just a little less survivability/support but way more damage.
- If bunkers are too weak, should the support be buffed so that Cele Ele doesn’t creep on it?
Please no. We have had too much power creep already. I would like to see nerfs to cele builds offensive or defensive (especially non-trait changes) capabilities.
- If cele is too strong, what part of it is too strong? Should the defense go down and the support remain just as strong? Should the defense stay the same and the support potential go down? Is it the damage?
Its kind of a total-package thing. Cele builds each need a shave somewhere. As an ele, I would like to see cele builds shaved in damage capabilities. This could come from shaving sigils, shaving runes, or shaving individual skills. With how long cele ele survives (and should survive as a veritable bunker), it should have much lower damage potential. I do not have as closely intimate knowledge of the other builds to suggest a modus of change.
- On this note, would it help if some of the support that eles have be other ally only? For example, Cleansing Wave only removing conditions from allies or the healing on certain skills being less effective on the ele, but more effective on allies? Please take this as a concept, not a specific suggestion.
If the suppportive traits were just for allies, eles would not take it. They trait how they do because they need to maximize their own defense. It just so happens that some of them also provide great support. Perhaps, however, the degree to which these skills apply to allies could be reduced (going the other way). One of the problems of an ele is that it still scales really well in a teamfight while also being great 1v1. Take away SOME of that support potential, so now stacking them isn’t as beneficial. This also prevents the class from going straight to trash-tier because they can’t stay alive.
- The DPS role is taken up by pure DPS players still. While you don’t see mesmer/thief/ranger/guardian/necro as a DPS role as often as Cele Engi, you still see it plenty. That said, we sort of scoff at bunker guardians currently.
- Is this because the pure DPSers have a niche or because they excel at DPS enough that they overtake the cele engi role? For example, mesmer has an AMAZING burst, but they also have portal (their niche). If mesmer didn’t have portal, would you still take it? What about thief without stealth or power ranger without entangle?
The problem with bunker guard is that it is so slow, it requires building around it (and usually means taking a mesmer, which then means you have the guard/mes/thief combo b/c mesmer needs a thief so it doesn’t just get farmed). DPS classes having their niche means that team comps can be built where that role is valuable, so it is a very good thing. Celes being very good at everything just kind of take away from others’ niche.
- Do bunker roles need this niche (Some special skill that cannot be matched by other builds) or an increase in their ability to support allies (more heals/condi clears/boons)?
They kind of already do. Bunker guard is the best at team stab, great at providing boons, and from surviving power focus-fire. Unfortunately, because of the changes to sigils, everybody just farts out so many condis constantly that it plays into their weakness. Bunker guardian is still strong, and shouldn’t really be buffed imo. In a different meta, the same build will once again rise to prominence. The problem is everybody else has been severely power-creeped, and the dominant builds could use a little shave.
How on earth are DPS roles taken by Ele? lol
Just meant you see more Celestial Ele’s than other DPS classes. Some comps run double Celestial Eles.
I wouldn’t call Eles a DPS class. They have DPS, but they are more node trolls than anything else.
It is a bad thing since burning is the highest dmg condition in the game and with such easy access to it, it makes literally zero sense. Even though Engineer’s have a random crit-proc it’s still only single-target based and STILL has a lower duration overall with runes factored in.
It seems like you’re also not factoring in attunement swap cooldowns. Eles can’t and don’t simply camp fire all day long and hit Drake’s Breath every time it’s off cooldown.
Except not every profession is rewarded with kit-swapping. The example of sigils is a moot point since everyone has access to it.
I don’t understand this argument. Not every profession is rewarded with kit-swapping because other professions can use an offhand weaponset. Eles and Engis cannot, and therefore use kits and attunements to proc those benefits.
It has an obvious tell but having the only counter be, “don’t attack” is dumb. I’ve dealt with low health since the beginning(Guardian here), it doesn’t mean I should have copious amounts of boons given to me.
Why is that dumb? It’s also detrimental to attack people with retal, or attack while you have confusion. And what is a “copious” amount of boons? Auras in the meta d/d build only give protection.
I was leaning more towards Soothing wave. Not to mention removing conditions when applied to yourself and/or allies makes it incredibly powerful.
I think Cleansing Water is strong, but not ridiculously so. It’s a grandmaster trait, and Eles only have 2 weapon skills that apply aoe regeneration: Healing Rain on staff, and Water Trident on scepter.
I think bumping the ICD on Soothing Wave to 12-15 seconds would tone it down a little without making everyone give it up for Cantrip Mastery.
Edit: I originally mistook Soothing Wave for Cleansing Wave. Why do so many of the Water Magic traits have such similar names?
You make it seem like every profession has access to constant boonstrip, this is obviously not the case, a poor argument at best.
Again, see my argument above about boon-strip.
I couldn’t find it after skimming your post history for this thread, sorry.
If every profession had “constant boonstrip,” then boon application would be pointless. However, there are meta builds for Thief, Mes, and Necro that all provide boonstrip. Two for Thief, in fact.
Sorry dude, your defense of EVERYTHING I’ve suggested leads me to assume your bias is out and in the open very clearly.
I’m so glad you’re here to be an unbiased pillar of enlightenment in this biased world.
Prosper
Brought to you by ArenaNet. Soon™.
Brought to you by ArenaNet. Soon™.
(edited by Rusc.4978)
When it comes to agreement, engineer has a few skills that everyone pretty much unanimously thinks is OP (Overcharged Shot, Slick Shoes, Gear Block). Even warrior, players can mostly agree that war banner is a very strong skill.
- What skills can both sides of this argument agree on are too strong and COULD be shaved for elementalist? I highly doubt a massive nerf to celestial elementalists is going to happen, so what can we agree is OP or lacks counterplay for elementalist?
Is there really need for this question?
You can see for yourself how biased and blinded are some people, if I’d be you I would not expect realistic answers.
Nerfs will happen at this point, I know they will, but I find solace in knowing that the Anet of nowadays doesn’t nerf anymore a profession to a level where a player who has reached a certain level would lose to a player of inferior skills.
Basically as long as the better player wins, I will be fine with every incoming changes.
Regardless of all this, I think you did great as forum specialist, you did try to reason with people invoking the laws of common sense, but as you can see, blinded people will never answer to common sense
only there is no team cleanse on soothing disruption as the trait is for personal use only…..do we play the same class?
Nope! Made and played Ele once, just to understand their traits and playing style. I’m bound to make mistakes.. so thanks for the correction :p
The devs have proved that they can’t balance the ele at this point, it’s either cold or it’s hot..so just delete it and everybody happy.
I personally don’t want to nerf Ele’s, just their team composition. In other words, I think their a balanced classs until you place them with a self sustaining comp like Engi, Warrior, and another Ele. They do everything so well, it’s hard to replace them.
I understamd this game is purposely imbalanced, it promotes creative rotational play, interesting team compositions, to beat said comp. The issue I have is, 1) There’s hardly any creative play, or team comp, to face this team . 2) I’m a strong believer in that win percentage makes the best team, not Team A counters Team B, so Team A is best in game.
Even if there was a counter comp for The Abjured, you need to be good enough to beat every other non Celestial team composition class. You may have a 90%+ win rate vs Abjured and a 60% win rate vs everyone else. While the Abjured has a 90%+ win rate across the board… against every single comp they come across.
Celestial Comps are destined to make the best Conquest Teams. That’s what i’m not ok with.
I apologise then for my irking comment, the majority of times people tend to comment on certain aspect of the game without really knowing then.
For the rest I fully agree with you, I hope that in the future ele will be nerfed to a level where having more than one will damage your team, but it will be still considered a serious threat as profession, as every class should be
The devs have proved that they can’t balance the ele at this point, it’s either cold or it’s hot..so just delete it and everybody happy.
You’re right, but really it’s simply D/D Ele that you’re describing.
I think that Arenanet can get it right eventually, the last time they just annihilated Cleansing Water foolishly, breaking the build sending it into garbage tier.
The expansion this year will turn every concept of balance we have on its head, so we will perhaps even see an alternative to D/D Cele in PvP.
I really hope so, at the very least I know that I’ll make a revenant as my 3rd main, furthermore I believe that stronghold will change the rules of team composition so we will see some interesting things in the future
When it comes to agreement, engineer has a few skills that everyone pretty much unanimously thinks is OP (Overcharged Shot, Slick Shoes, Gear Block). Even warrior, players can mostly agree that war banner is a very strong skill.
- What skills can both sides of this argument agree on are too strong and COULD be shaved for elementalist? I highly doubt a massive nerf to celestial elementalists is going to happen, so what can we agree is OP or lacks counterplay for elementalist?
By shaving celestial amulet. Also will shave lots of other stupid stuff without hurting half of non-OP builds, other classes and PvE.
But I guess it gonna be again class nerfs or even base game mechanic nerf, because yolo.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
That is more cc than any other celestial class. More cc than mesmer, thief and ranger. Only thing that has more cc than that is a fearmancer.
How does celestial amulet and CC define anything?
Where did I say that the amulet is defining the CC? I just compared the celestial engi with d/d ele and war which are the other 2 classes that use celestial. Pay more attention when reading.
What makes a PvP build celestial then?
Bolded part would be mesmers. Thanks and have a great day!
Why would you wanna bold something only to make an incorrect statement about it?
Anyone that plays this game knows that when people say celestial users or celestial builds it is reffering to d/d ele rifle engi and war.They are the only 3 classes that use celestial in the meta. If you are new to the game I understand your lack of knowledge about it.
Then why are you discussing a non meta build on the engineer? The true meta is Elixir S not Slick Shoes. So, I am not sure if your being intentionally hypocritical for comedic reasons or are contradicting yourself in the manner of cutting off your nose to spite your own face. Anyway, if you assume 1 single build is all that can define a “meta” build for a profession, then you probably shouldn’t come at folks so aggressively.
Point is, like it or not there are absolutely, variation and differences, that are "meta’ themselves with in the basic “meta” builds. If your adhering to only one strict build, and trying to do partial comparisons of only what is strong, while ignoring the weaknesses, then you have already exlude yourself from the real conversation.
The meta engi can use slick shoes. The only one saying false things here is you. “Mediocre condi dmg” “Mediocre direct dmg” hahahahaha.
You are the one ignoring things here. Ignoring all the strong parts and talking like if engi was a weak class.
I have not seen your math on damage comparisons. Where did you say you posted them?
When one of your pillars of complaints is a builds CC, the difference in slick shoes and Elixir S is massive. Particularly given that I can quote all of your previous post as referring to the engineer build as a singular celestial build, in this case. I am not ignoring anything actually. You are simply posting one thing, yet you appear to mean something different. Oddly enough, you approach it as if the community is at fault for not discerning the difference in what you said and what you meant.
Where did you post your math calculations to say the dmg is mediocre? You made false claims and never posted anything to support them. But when anyone post something that is common sense you requests videos, pictures. The cooldowns and durations of the skills are on the wiki. Go learn something about your own class.
Oh so now you speak for the “community”. If the player does not know the meta that is not my problem. Even metabattle has the base build there.
Well the fact that stat points are invested equally in condition damage, precision, and power, at significantly lower amount then other amulets, is very obvious. It has been broken down by myself, and several others in both engineer threads, this very sub forums.
Speaking for the community? No, not at all. Why do you assume so?
Thank you for posting that link, it absolutely supported my point. The previously posted build that was being discussed had Slick Shoes, not Elixir S, even EG makes it an entirely different play style and discussion as a whole. It is a very different discussion between the three utilities in the aspect of CC, which was one of the complaints. In professions with no weapon swap, there is a very dynamic and different discussion between the build you posted, and the one that was being discussed.
The link does not support your point at all. Swap slick shoes for elixir is a small change, a matter of personal preference, in the engi meta build. Asides from slick shoes all the other problems stay the same even running elixir S: IP +overcharged shot +gear shield. The change is not significant enough to say it completely changes the playstyle. Meta engi was op even before people started using slick shoes.
Having no weapon swap doesn’t mean less skills because normal engi has at least 2 kits. They end up havving more skills than most classes. They also have 4 profession mechanic skills (f1,f2,f3 and f4) while some classes have 1.
Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]
When it comes to agreement, engineer has a few skills that everyone pretty much unanimously thinks is OP (Overcharged Shot, Slick Shoes, Gear Block).
The pvp specialist is right. Those skills are OP and need to be nerfed.
Ouroboro Knight’s [OK]
When it comes to agreement, engineer has a few skills that everyone pretty much unanimously thinks is OP (Overcharged Shot, Slick Shoes, Gear Block). Even warrior, players can mostly agree that war banner is a very strong skill.
Be careful with the forums. People will say something is OP because it’s the most noticeable ability when they died; not because it’s how they died or what’s too strong.
- Incendiary Powder is too strong because you can’t avoid being hit by it and because it’s difficult to remove with lots of cover conditions. The trait should be completely reworked, but for now, a duration reduction would help a lot
- Slick Shoes is too strong and frustrates players because it’s too easy to knock them down multiple times. However, I would argue that Slick Shoes should retain the ability to knock down twice, but only with good planning.
- Overcharged Shot should be left alone for now. It has no tell for its use, but you can reasonably predict it and it self-CC’s. Unless the engineer uses a stun break, of which they have few, they aren’t going to be able to unleash a ton of damage onto you. You have to anticipate it coming and use blocks, blinds, stability, stun breaks, etc appropriately. It’s not like the old Pin Down (warrior longbow #5) with a 0.25sec cast time and 3sec immob. Fix the first two things before you change this. Overcharged shot doubles as an interrupt and defense against glass cannon melee and adding a cast time breaks that.
- What skills can both sides of this argument agree on are too strong and COULD be shaved for elementalist? I highly doubt a massive nerf to celestial elementalists is going to happen, so what can we agree is OP or lacks counterplay for elementalist?
There’s no consensus because there’s no agreement about what d/d ele’s strenths and weaknesses should be. Is its sustain too strong and damage okay? Or is the damage too strong, but sustain good? Is the group utility right or is it too much? Should it be weaker in 1v1, team fights, or both? All of the above? I haven’t seen a consistent answer about where d/d celestial ele should fit.
Kirrena Rosenkreutz
(edited by Exedore.6320)
When it comes to agreement, engineer has a few skills that everyone pretty much unanimously thinks is OP (Overcharged Shot, Slick Shoes, Gear Block). Even warrior, players can mostly agree that war banner is a very strong skill.
Be careful with the forums. People will say something is OP because it’s the most noticeable ability when they died; not because it’s how they died or what’s too strong.
- Incendiary Powder is too strong because you can’t avoid being hit by it and because it’s difficult to remove with lots of cover conditions. The trait should be completely reworked, but for now, a duration reduction would help a lot
- Slick Shoes is too strong and frustrates players because it’s too easy to knock them down multiple times. However, I would argue that Slick Shoes should retain the ability to knock down twice, but only with good planning.
- Overcharged Shot should be left alone for now. It has no tell for its use, but you can reasonably predict it and it self-CC’s. Unless the engineer uses a stun break, of which they have few, they aren’t going to be able to unleash a ton of damage onto you. You have to anticipate it coming and use blocks, blinds, stability, stun breaks, etc appropriately. It’s not like the old Pin Down (warrior longbow #5) with a 0.25sec cast time and 3sec immob. Fix the first two things before you change this. Overcharged shot doubles as an interrupt and defense against glass cannon melee and adding a cast time breaks that.
- What skills can both sides of this argument agree on are too strong and COULD be shaved for elementalist? I highly doubt a massive nerf to celestial elementalists is going to happen, so what can we agree is OP or lacks counterplay for elementalist?
There’s no consensus because there’s no agreement about what d/d ele’s strenths and weaknesses should be. Is its sustain too strong and damage okay? Or is the damage too strong, but sustain good? Is the group utility right or is it too much? Should it be weaker in 1v1, team fights, or both? All of the above? I haven’t seen a consistent answer about where d/d celestial ele should fit.
Slick Shoes isn’t OP because of the multiple CC, it is OP because of multiple CC plus a short CD stun breaker.
When it comes to agreement, engineer has a few skills that everyone pretty much unanimously thinks is OP (Overcharged Shot, Slick Shoes, Gear Block). Even warrior, players can mostly agree that war banner is a very strong skill.
Be careful with the forums. People will say something is OP because it’s the most noticeable ability when they died; not because it’s how they died or what’s too strong.
- Incendiary Powder is too strong because you can’t avoid being hit by it and because it’s difficult to remove with lots of cover conditions. The trait should be completely reworked, but for now, a duration reduction would help a lot
- Slick Shoes is too strong and frustrates players because it’s too easy to knock them down multiple times. However, I would argue that Slick Shoes should retain the ability to knock down twice, but only with good planning.
- Overcharged Shot should be left alone for now. It has no tell for its use, but you can reasonably predict it and it self-CC’s. Unless the engineer uses a stun break, of which they have few, they aren’t going to be able to unleash a ton of damage onto you. You have to anticipate it coming and use blocks, blinds, stability, stun breaks, etc appropriately. It’s not like the old Pin Down (warrior longbow #5) with a 0.25sec cast time and 3sec immob. Fix the first two things before you change this. Overcharged shot doubles as an interrupt and defense against glass cannon melee and adding a cast time breaks that.
- What skills can both sides of this argument agree on are too strong and COULD be shaved for elementalist? I highly doubt a massive nerf to celestial elementalists is going to happen, so what can we agree is OP or lacks counterplay for elementalist?
There’s no consensus because there’s no agreement about what d/d ele’s strenths and weaknesses should be. Is its sustain too strong and damage okay? Or is the damage too strong, but sustain good? Is the group utility right or is it too much? Should it be weaker in 1v1, team fights, or both? All of the above? I haven’t seen a consistent answer about where d/d celestial ele should fit.
Bout to quote the crap out of this in my report. Exactly what I’ve gathered from all of this debate.
Main: Raine Avina (Engineer)
Message me any time in game.
Message me any time in game.
Bout to quote the crap out of this in my report. Exactly what I’ve gathered from all of this debate.
Okay so my next big question is, if Cele Ele won’t be touched. What needs to change. Because as it stands they are really dominating pvp matches, and the meta in general. The Abjured even stated that their entire playstyle hinges on Phanta and Wakkey.
and engi will still do very good compare to other builds with same role like staff ele, for the close to zerker engi damage out put, access to a lot of conditions to cover, and good survibility and kitting ability
and about Overcharge shot, no, it will never be predictable, it has no cast time, it will always be pure RNG, you think it’s predictable, only because the engis you’ve meet use it at the same situation every time or they are simply bad and try to use it the moment you get close.
one more thing about overcharge with no cast time, it’s almost impossible to predict that in big team fights.
(edited by Simon.3794)
When it comes to agreement, engineer has a few skills that everyone pretty much unanimously thinks is OP (Overcharged Shot, Slick Shoes, Gear Block). Even warrior, players can mostly agree that war banner is a very strong skill.
Be careful with the forums. People will say something is OP because it’s the most noticeable ability when they died; not because it’s how they died or what’s too strong.
- Incendiary Powder is too strong because you can’t avoid being hit by it and because it’s difficult to remove with lots of cover conditions. The trait should be completely reworked, but for now, a duration reduction would help a lot
- Slick Shoes is too strong and frustrates players because it’s too easy to knock them down multiple times. However, I would argue that Slick Shoes should retain the ability to knock down twice, but only with good planning.
- Overcharged Shot should be left alone for now. It has no tell for its use, but you can reasonably predict it and it self-CC’s. Unless the engineer uses a stun break, of which they have few, they aren’t going to be able to unleash a ton of damage onto you. You have to anticipate it coming and use blocks, blinds, stability, stun breaks, etc appropriately. It’s not like the old Pin Down (warrior longbow #5) with a 0.25sec cast time and 3sec immob. Fix the first two things before you change this. Overcharged shot doubles as an interrupt and defense against glass cannon melee and adding a cast time breaks that.
- What skills can both sides of this argument agree on are too strong and COULD be shaved for elementalist? I highly doubt a massive nerf to celestial elementalists is going to happen, so what can we agree is OP or lacks counterplay for elementalist?
There’s no consensus because there’s no agreement about what d/d ele’s strenths and weaknesses should be. Is its sustain too strong and damage okay? Or is the damage too strong, but sustain good? Is the group utility right or is it too much? Should it be weaker in 1v1, team fights, or both? All of the above? I haven’t seen a consistent answer about where d/d celestial ele should fit.
Bout to quote the crap out of this in my report. Exactly what I’ve gathered from all of this debate.
Maybe it’s too strong on every single of these things ?
“best 1vs1 proff, especially on point”
“too much damage for its suatain”
“too much sustain for its damage”
“too much mobility”
“too much support”
“too much might stacking” ( it’s support too, but worth of a mention)
It’s not like bunker guard ( full support) is any better, not even on condi clears.
Bunk guard with soldier runes = 2/30+2/35+2/60 = 1 condi clear every 15 secs ( approx).
1 ele properly rotating its attunements will give 1 condi clear every 10 secs AND more healz.
50% prot uptime and might stacking.
Moreover it can be stacked, something u just can’t do with eles.
Basically EVERY SINGLE ELE ASPECT IS OP.
The only thing guard is worth for is SyG.
Maybe it’s too strong on every single of these things ?
“best 1vs1 proff, especially on point”
“too much damage for its sustain”
“too much sustain for its damage”
“too much mobility”
“too much support”
“too much might stacking” ( it’s support too, but worth of a mention)
It’s not like bunker guard ( full support) is any better, not even on condi clears.
Bunk guard with soldier runes = 2/30+2/35+2/60 = 1 condi clear every 15 secs ( approx).
1 ele properly rotating its attunements will give 1 condi clear every 10 secs AND more healz.
50% prot uptime and might stacking.
Moreover it can be stacked, something u just can’t do with eles.
Basically EVERY SINGLE ELE ASPECT IS OP.
The only thing guard is worth for is SyG.
best 1vs1 proff, especially on point
It’s not.
too much damage for its sustain
Not really.
too much sustain for its damage
That isn’t the culprit.
too much mobility
I’d agree with this.
too much support
Two Ele’s in Group is.
[i] ahem,{/i] Cleansing Water’s icd of 5 was changed to 0… nerf to 2s icd pls.
“too much might stacking” ( it’s support too, but worth of a mention)
It’s fine.
The only thing guard is worth for is SyG.
Have you fought a good guard? You should duel me sometime.
aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
(edited by Saiyan.1704)
Maybe it’s too strong on every single of these things ?
“best 1vs1 proff, especially on point”
“too much damage for its sustain”
“too much sustain for its damage”
“too much mobility”
“too much support”
“too much might stacking” ( it’s support too, but worth of a mention)
It’s not like bunker guard ( full support) is any better, not even on condi clears.
Bunk guard with soldier runes = 2/30+2/35+2/60 = 1 condi clear every 15 secs ( approx).
1 ele properly rotating its attunements will give 1 condi clear every 10 secs AND more healz.
50% prot uptime and might stacking.
Moreover it can be stacked, something u just can’t do with eles.
Basically EVERY SINGLE ELE ASPECT IS OP.
The only thing guard is worth for is SyG.
best 1vs1 proff, especially on point
It’s not.too much damage for its sustain
Not really.too much sustain for its damage
That isn’t the culprit.too much mobility
I’d agree with this.too much support
Two Ele’s in Group is.
[i] ahem,{/i] Cleansing Water’s icd of 5 was changed to 0… nerf to 2s icd pls.“too much might stacking” ( it’s support too, but worth of a mention)
It’s fine.The only thing guard is worth for is SyG.
Have you fought a good guard? You should duel me sometime.
tell me why is it used every where and it’s considered op?
mobility can’t be it, because thief has way more mobility, and i doubt it’s only cleansing water either. it has to be something, much like multiple things that make ele stands out so much! you tell me man.
Maybe it’s too strong on every single of these things ?
“best 1vs1 proff, especially on point”
“too much damage for its sustain”
“too much sustain for its damage”
“too much mobility”
“too much support”
“too much might stacking” ( it’s support too, but worth of a mention)
It’s not like bunker guard ( full support) is any better, not even on condi clears.
Bunk guard with soldier runes = 2/30+2/35+2/60 = 1 condi clear every 15 secs ( approx).
1 ele properly rotating its attunements will give 1 condi clear every 10 secs AND more healz.
50% prot uptime and might stacking.
Moreover it can be stacked, something u just can’t do with eles.
Basically EVERY SINGLE ELE ASPECT IS OP.
The only thing guard is worth for is SyG.
best 1vs1 proff, especially on point
It’s not.too much damage for its sustain
Not really.too much sustain for its damage
That isn’t the culprit.too much mobility
I’d agree with this.too much support
Two Ele’s in Group is.
[i] ahem,{/i] Cleansing Water’s icd of 5 was changed to 0… nerf to 2s icd pls.“too much might stacking” ( it’s support too, but worth of a mention)
It’s fine.The only thing guard is worth for is SyG.
Have you fought a good guard? You should duel me sometime.tell me why is it used every where and it’s considered op?
mobility can’t be it, because thief has way more mobility, and i doubt it’s only cleansing water either. it has to be something, much like multiple things that make ele stands out so much! you tell me man.
The thing that makes ele stand out, is the stackability of them. Each profession brings something unique to the table, however each profession should also have a glaring weakness that requires it to be made up for by another teammate.
That being said, in general stacking classes in this game is bad (oh no two rangers, oh no two necros, oh no two thieves, oh no two mesmers etc.)
However certain classes bring so much to the table that when they are stacked they synergize even better together. Ele is the biggest culprit. 2 eles SHOULD put your team at a huge disadvantage because well these two eles are supposed to have a weakness that gets maginified when they are stacked on a team, right now two eles just cover for each others weaknesses.
So my big question is, how do we change elementalist (specifically the d/d cele build) to where if two are on a team, you know that it is going to detract from your team overall?
Elemental Attunement, please
5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown is already ridic, when combined with 2 ele, it’s even more ridic..
Slick Shoes isn’t OP because of the multiple CC, it is OP because of multiple CC plus a short CD stun breaker.
I can see it being both. Engineer is generally weak against CC, so a low cooldown stun break is powerful. And it can be combined with overcharged shot to lessen the negative impact of the skill.
and about Overcharge shot, no, it will never be predictable, it has no cast time, it will always be pure RNG, you think it’s predictable, only because the engis you’ve meet use it at the same situation every time or they are simply bad and try to use it the moment you get close.
I’ve avoided it against good engineers too.
Overcharged shot is only 400 range. Engineer is pretty bad at sustained melee, so if the engineer starts to move close to you, especially with rifle out, they’re mostly likely going for Overcharged Shot or Blunderbuss. Maybe Pry Bar or Slick Shoes. You want to avoid any of those skills.
Further, if they sit in their self-CC, you’re not that bad off. If they break the self-CC, they likely don’t have any other stun breakers, so you can CC them back once you recover. And if they use their stun break, it’s a good idea to also use yours.
Edit: I’d like to add that Ranger’s Point Blank Shot is a 0.5 second cast time and is still hard to avoid. At 900(1200) range. So that kinda shoots down the wind-up idea for Overcharged Shot unless you want to completely re-work the skill.
Basically EVERY SINGLE ELE ASPECT IS OP.
Okay, so which ones should be toned down and which should be left alone? That’s the predicament. We have a pretty good idea where d/d ele is at – but not where it belongs in terms of strengths and weaknesses.
Once you figure out where d/d cele ele should fit, you can better identify which skills need tweaked.
Kirrena Rosenkreutz
(edited by Exedore.6320)
I keep seeing the same kitten quoted by people “5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown” and similar. Uh NO it is NOT. No one attunes just for the boon and then attunes back right away (that’s the only case where it would be remotely close to 10s). Attunements are not kits and are a class profession. It’s like me complaining about ranger pets being too stonkk kitten kitten .
Again, if I started listing everything about what every class could do it would be deemed too strong…
Zwim Elementalist
Consigliere
The Dragoon Brotherhood
Consigliere
The Dragoon Brotherhood
The discussion seems to be hitting on a big point here:
Bunkers are not used much anymore.
I fear if I answered your questions directly, the big picture would be clouded. Instead, I’ll address the overall point.
What happened to old-school bunkers?
In a nutshell, players got better. Dedicating a person to each of two points is simple, but not optimal. If you pay attention to where your enemies are, you can leave a point undefended and assist your team. If your team sits a player on an uncontested node, but your opponents don’t, they have an extra person in the team fight and will likely win. And without the threat of a decap, a team can freely do this. Backpack’s Rotations Video explains this in more detail.
So why not just move the bunkers around the map?
The old bunker specs are ineffective offensively. They can’t kill anything or de-cap anything in a 1v1, so the opponent will still get points from a node being assaulted by a bunker by just sitting a player on the point with the bunker. In a 2v2 between bunker+DPS and DPS+(DPS or “bruiser”), the DPS with the bunker will be rendered ineffective. At best, the match-up stalemates.
Why did cele builds replace bunkers?
Like the traditional bunkers, cele d/d ele and cele warrior can sustain for a long time in a 1v1. They also have group support for team fights. The key difference is that these cele builds can put out decent damage. It’s enough to force opponents off nodes in a 1v1, especially against a DPS, and in a 2v2 fight, they can assist a full DPS and make the match-up pretty even.
It’s important to note that the full bunkers were already in decline when cele d/d rose to dominance; the rise of cele d/d ele just accelerated their demise.
Can we overhaul the old bunkers?
If the main problem was being too tanky, can’t the old bunkers just drop some defense and pick up offense? Especially guardian with it’s powerful group utility? Why don’t they just slap on celestial amulet and go?
Unfortunately, it’s not that simple. Guardians with celestial amulets don’t hit hard enough. The same is true for other bunker builds. I personally blame the amulet system.
The amulet problem
Currently, with the exception of celestial, the amulet system only allows extreme damage, or incredibly tanky with a poor stat allocation and too little damage. Further, professions have different base HP values, and the low HP professions (elementalist, guardian, thief) need vitality to be somewhat tanky, which eliminates most of the amulet choices.
So it’s no surprise that celestial amulet is popular for d/d ele, cele rifle engi, and shoutbow warrior. Celestial provides a good amount of defense spread among the three defensive stats, but not too much in each or total. The offense is weak because the power value is low. But if you can supplement with power from a trait line (engineer) or might (d/d ele and warrior), it’s not that weak anymore.
If you can’t supplement the low power or take good advantage of at least 6 or the 7 stats on celestial, it doesn’t work. Guardian can’t stack might reliably and its power trait line is awful for PvP. Additionally it’s benefit from healing power is crippled in PvP due to the 50% penalty on Selfless Daring (heal on dodge). Non-shout warrior builds just don’t get enough benefit from healing power, so their sustain suffers, and they already have high HP.
Fix the PvP stat system
The amulet system is smothering builds and professions. Low base HP professions suffer without additional vitality. Low armor professions are “exploded” without a little extra toughness. But no one needs 900 toughness or vitality. Even 600 is a bit much. But they need some of each. Similarly, power damage without precision and ferocity is crippled. But without defenses, you’re too easy to kill.
Split the amulet stats into multiple items. I suggest a 50/25/25% split (amulet and two rings). This allows DPS builds to pick up some toughness while still having vitality, precision, and ferocity. It allows for builds which can’t use full celestial for a semi-bunker to mix and match to get something more effective.
Kirrena Rosenkreutz
I keep seeing the same kitten quoted by people “5 seconds of Aoe protection in 10 seconds cooldown” and similar. Uh NO it is NOT. No one attunes just for the boon and then attunes back right away (that’s the only case where it would be remotely close to 10s). Attunements are not kits and are a class profession. It’s like me complaining about ranger pets being too stonkk kitten kitten.
This does bring up a good point: What is a d/d ele’s protection up-time?
First, What’s a reasonable time between Earth attunement swaps? I think 15sec – 20sec is a good estimate.
If we look at at 60 second window (hopefully a battle will be decided by then), we have the following sources for self-protection:
- 6 sec from Armor of Earth
- 6 sec from Shocking Aura x2
- 3 sec from Frost Aura
- 15 sec from Elemental Attunement (Earth) x3
- +30% boon duration from 6 points in Arcane
Add it up and the d/d ele gets 39 seconds of Protection on himself in that 60 second window – 65% uptime. Group is only affected by Elemental Attunement, so that’s 19.5 seconds – 32.5% uptime.
Edit: Fixed duration on Elemental Shield to 3sec.
Kirrena Rosenkreutz
(edited by Exedore.6320)
Jon Peters
Game Design LeadI think the big question here is the base health/armor of the elementalist. Of course if you are just an elementalist you just want us to raise these, but balance must work around some fixed things and profession health and armor are an important part of defining what a profession is so that we can create powerful tools that players can actively use to circumvent these weaknesses
Dec 2013 Ele Sub Forum
As you can see the high protection uptime was given to eles as compensation for having the lowest armor/health in the game. The ele community already asked to change this the other way around ( more health at the very least and far less protection uptime), but the devs categorically refuse to change anything about ele base design as you can clearly see from the quote above
Furthermore the skill level of player beyond the ele get never conveniently taken into consideration, the protection uptime means nothing if you are a bad player to start with and you will get burst down easily by pretty much anything
Jarvis.9540
I have been playing with the meta build off and on for a couple of months now. I understand the rotations, the need to break rotations, interrupts, cleansing w/ cantrips/water attunement, how to stack might, etc. – but I cannot kill anything. All the studying in the world isn’t helping because of how long it takes for me to get set up. These are usually the scenarios that happen to me when I’m in a 1v1 encounter:
- It’s a burst class, and I’m killed before I can get through any part of my rotation. Can’t get might stacks, can’t do damage, and breaking my rotation to play dynamically just causes even more problem. This is especially true vs lb ranger & s/d thief.
- It’s a bunker build, and I can’t damage him. I get might stacks up, position correctly, but nothing does enough damage to burn him down.
It seems the only place I’m able to have any success is in a 2v2 situation because I cause so much chaos. However, I usually get cc’d in that scenario (even after I cleanse out of it) and beaten down. All the wins I’ve seen in videos make sense until I try those strategies myself and fall on my face. I’m really frustrated. I keep hearing how powerful this build is, andI like the jack of all trades aspect of this class so much, but I feel like I shine in no situation. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!
PS – Here is the build I’ve been using: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Dagger/Dagger
So yes, you don’t play D/D and magically start to wins fights with zero effort, the majority(over 80%) of eles in GW2 did put effort in learning not only their profession but also all other ones. From @Swim to @Blackbeard, they’ve been around an awful lot on ele, if you’re a new/bad player player who jump on ele after reading all the stories found on the forum…well not even 200% protection uptime will save them from being bursted down in seconds.
Players like @Phantaram don’t win because of this protection uptime, sure it helps, but he doesn’t win ’cause of it, he wins ’cause he knows where the dodge button is among other things like : rotation, prediction, positioning etc etc
(edited by Supreme.3164)