Guild Wars 2

Shiyo.3578:

33% healing reduction with nearly 100% up time on classes that are NOT supposed to have access to poison is better than anything you listed. Is 33% healing reduction really THAT underrated or misunderstood?

If everyone runs it and it’s so OP, then run generosity. It has the same CD and both removes the poison and gives it to your target.

If it’s not bad enough to need generosity, then your point is invalid.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Shiyo.3578:

33% healing reduction with nearly 100% up time on classes that are NOT supposed to have access to poison is better than anything you listed. Is 33% healing reduction really THAT underrated or misunderstood?

If everyone runs it and it’s so OP, then run generosity. It has the same CD and both removes the poison and gives it to your target.

If it’s not bad enough to need generosity, then your point is invalid.

You’re not going to give up doom/fire/air/intelligence/hydro/energy to counter doom sigil. It doesn’t even counter it because it’s not the only condition you have on you all the time because generosity has a 9 second ICD and only transfers a single condition.

This argument makes me so confused.

Shiyo.3578:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Shiyo.3578:

33% healing reduction with nearly 100% up time on classes that are NOT supposed to have access to poison is better than anything you listed. Is 33% healing reduction really THAT underrated or misunderstood?

If everyone runs it and it’s so OP, then run generosity. It has the same CD and both removes the poison and gives it to your target.

If it’s not bad enough to need generosity, then your point is invalid.

You’re not going to give up doom/fire/air/intelligence/hydro to counter doom sigil, this argument makes me want to uninstall GW2.

So you’re saying that fire/air/intelligence/hydro are all so powerful that you don’t even need to counter doom sigil when you have these.

Generosity has a 9 second ICD and transfers a single condition.

My head hurts.

Shiyo.3578:

Generosity has a 9 second ICD and transfers a single condition.

My head hurts.

Doom has a 9 second ICD and deals a single condition.

My head hurts.

Lol saying generosity is a counter to doom. Yes lets put our hopes in 100% RNGesus…

People saying doom is contering celestial, but most classes that run doom are ele/engi/war the celestial users. It makes as much sense as giving cele engi and cele ele a 50% dmg buff becuase they will counter each other.

Geomancy been op does not make doom any less op. Doom and geomancy were balanced before april’s update.

Mrbig.8019:

Chaith.8256:

Shiyo.3578:

Explain how classes that shouldn’t have access to poison(a HUGE 33% healing debuff) having essentially FREE access to 6 seconds of poison every 9 seconds isn’t overpowered.

Also, if it’s not the most overpowered sigil, what is?

Professions that aren’t supposed to have high critical chance suddenly have many crits with Intelligence Sigil

Professions that aren’t supposed to have vigor or more than baseline dodges suddenly have that with Intelligence Sigil

I mean, saying it in a hype way is useful to making a point, but really:

• Avoidable 6s poison attack on swap
• Unpreventable damage procs on Crit
• Unpreventable 50 Endurance refill on swap
• Unpreventable 2 Stacks of Might for 20s on swap
• Avoidable 975 damage & healing leech on swap
• Next 3 attacks guaranteed to crit, expends charges when attacks avoided.

I would say these are the best sigils…. why does there have to be one that’s the most overpowered, as you earlier claimed?

Objectively, the un-preventable ones such as Air/Fire and Energy are the most overpowered ones, but who cares, despite the game making sigils way too important to a build, the top 10 or so sigils are certainly well balanced with each other.

Doom sigil is the most OP right now cuz it allows cele builds to outsustain even better.

Aside engi ( which still has 2 condi clears every 15 secs) all cele proffs are the best at handling conditions.

It’s the same moot point of the the old " u can counter heal signet with poison lelelelel" without factoring that war has one of the best condi removal in game, even without zerk stance/shouts.

Moreover it allows to cover your burn ticks better, especially for the ele which wouldn’ have that free condi in their kitten nal ( u get dem 600 per tick burns covered by chill, 1-2 BLEED STACKS and other joke condies).

1 doom sigil proc on a mes will basically deal him 2 k free damage if he heals with it ( aside generosity on staff/sword but it’s basically the same if he has weap swap on cd) while on ele u just attune to water and gg.

Pls.

Sigils are powerful, build altering options. This is true, but there are no great arguments at this time as to why a single target, avoidable, 6 second duration poison attack after swapping weapons, is objectively better than the the other top swap sigils, or crit sigils.

“Doom Sigil is OP because Celestial Builds can outsustain better.”

I think your wording here has made it evident the problem does not lie within the Doom Sigil but in Celestial Builds. Please tell me about how good Doom Sigil is whenever your profession doesn’t have poison, when anyone who can use Air/Fire is doing so, even if they have no poison.

Chaith.8256:

Sigils are powerful, build altering options. This is true, but there are no great arguments at this time as to why a single target, avoidable, 6 second duration poison attack after swapping weapons, is objectively better than the the other top swap sigils, or crit sigils.

“Doom Sigil is OP because Celestial Builds can outsustain better.”

I think your wording here has made it evident the problem does not lie within the Doom Sigil but in Celestial Builds. Please tell me about how good Doom Sigil is whenever your profession doesn’t have poison, when anyone who can use Air/Fire is doing so, even if they have no poison.

1. Sigil of Doom isn’t exactly avoidable in most uses. Perhaps against a warrior where you can pay attention to the weapon-swap, but against something like an ele or engie that can swap attunements/kits mid-attack, thus instantly applying, its not really avoidable.

2. High sustain builds on classes like ele and warrior play the attrition game via might-stacking to win. Regardless of cele amulet, soldier (warr), or valks (ele), doom sigil synergizes with that strategy to such a powerful degree and pushes their high-healing over-the-top in a fight by applying so much -healing pressure to opponents. These classes are balanced around not having access to lots of poison.

3. Experience. Fight as a d/d cele ele without doom sigil and you do WAY less pressure than with. I have even watched streams of either OE or you (can’t recall which) from a few months back when people were figuring out the meta, and stating that your pressure is WAY higher (as an engie) when you have doom sigil, even though you had access to a good amount of poison with nades. You can still test this. Play a cele ele or warrior without doom and your TTK goes WAY up, even against non-cele builds. In fact, some fights that would be unfavorable are now in your favor as a cele ele thanks to doom sigil.

Also, fire/air is stupid too, for different reasons, but that should also be fixed as well. However, I will say that builds that use fire/air still have burst potential without these sigils. Cele builds (esp. warr/ele) have NO access to poison in any way without this sigil.

Chaith.8256:

Mrbig.8019:

Chaith.8256:

Shiyo.3578:

Explain how classes that shouldn’t have access to poison(a HUGE 33% healing debuff) having essentially FREE access to 6 seconds of poison every 9 seconds isn’t overpowered.

Also, if it’s not the most overpowered sigil, what is?

Professions that aren’t supposed to have high critical chance suddenly have many crits with Intelligence Sigil

Professions that aren’t supposed to have vigor or more than baseline dodges suddenly have that with Intelligence Sigil

I mean, saying it in a hype way is useful to making a point, but really:

• Avoidable 6s poison attack on swap
• Unpreventable damage procs on Crit
• Unpreventable 50 Endurance refill on swap
• Unpreventable 2 Stacks of Might for 20s on swap
• Avoidable 975 damage & healing leech on swap
• Next 3 attacks guaranteed to crit, expends charges when attacks avoided.

I would say these are the best sigils…. why does there have to be one that’s the most overpowered, as you earlier claimed?

Objectively, the un-preventable ones such as Air/Fire and Energy are the most overpowered ones, but who cares, despite the game making sigils way too important to a build, the top 10 or so sigils are certainly well balanced with each other.

Doom sigil is the most OP right now cuz it allows cele builds to outsustain even better.

Aside engi ( which still has 2 condi clears every 15 secs) all cele proffs are the best at handling conditions.

It’s the same moot point of the the old " u can counter heal signet with poison lelelelel" without factoring that war has one of the best condi removal in game, even without zerk stance/shouts.

Moreover it allows to cover your burn ticks better, especially for the ele which wouldn’ have that free condi in their kitten nal ( u get dem 600 per tick burns covered by chill, 1-2 BLEED STACKS and other joke condies).

1 doom sigil proc on a mes will basically deal him 2 k free damage if he heals with it ( aside generosity on staff/sword but it’s basically the same if he has weap swap on cd) while on ele u just attune to water and gg.

Pls.

Sigils are powerful, build altering options. This is true, but there are no great arguments at this time as to why a single target, avoidable, 6 second duration poison attack after swapping weapons, is objectively better than the the other top swap sigils, or crit sigils.

“Doom Sigil is OP because Celestial Builds can outsustain better.”

I think your wording here has made it evident the problem does not lie within the Doom Sigil but in Celestial Builds. Please tell me about how good Doom Sigil is whenever your profession doesn’t have poison, when anyone who can use Air/Fire is doing so, even if they have no poison.

Infact i agree the problem resides on cele builds.

Point is sigils are totally broken since sigil patch.

If cele gets nerfed then we’re back to air/fire kitten-geo/doom kitten. Nothing will change because we’ve reached a disgusting power creep.

Cele ele is the sum of power creep: 600 burn damage per burn tick, 5 k fire grabs, 3-4 k burning speeds and 2 k air autos.

It’s a joke, and cele engi deals even more damage.

Would be nice if there was some equal ground for those for and against. Probably a live discussion and explanation as to why you think things should be changed might help appeal to your reasoning. I still stand by my original argument earlier and have stated changes but again, i’m all for a discussion as to why they should or shouldn’t be through investigation and objectivity.

xDudisx.5914:

Lol saying generosity is a counter to doom. Yes lets put our hopes in 100% RNGesus…

People saying doom is contering celestial, but most classes that run doom are ele/engi/war the celestial users. It makes as much sense as giving cele engi and cele ele a 50% dmg buff becuase they will counter each other.

Geomancy been op does not make doom any less op. Doom and geomancy were balanced before april’s update.

Generosity/Purity only procs when you have a condition. Otherwise the sigil “sleeps” until there’s a condition on you. Once you have a condition, it’ll try procing and go on icd.
So more like 60% RNG depending on a number of scenarios.

Doom hurts self sustaining classes like Cele Ele more than it hurts Zerks or other dps classes. I’m not sure what argument you’re trying to make here, but you’re not fooling anyone.

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Lol saying generosity is a counter to doom. Yes lets put our hopes in 100% RNGesus…

People saying doom is contering celestial, but most classes that run doom are ele/engi/war the celestial users. It makes as much sense as giving cele engi and cele ele a 50% dmg buff becuase they will counter each other.

Geomancy been op does not make doom any less op. Doom and geomancy were balanced before april’s update.

Generosity/Purity only procs when you have a condition. Otherwise the sigil “sleeps” until there’s a condition on you, then it’ll try procing go on icd.
So more like 60% RNG depending on a number of scebarios.

Doom hurts self sustaining classes like Cele Ele more than it hurts Zerks or other dps classes. I’m not sure what argument you’re trying to make here, but you’re not fooling anyone.

d/d , rifle engi and shoutbow war have way more condis than just doom. So who said you are trasfering doom back? . I’m not sure what argument you’re trying to make here, but you’re not fooling anyone.

Doom is another condition with a very high uptime making even easier for celestial users to stack condis and so do more dmg. Oh you were going to remove my burning/bleeding? Too back you wasted condi clear in my poison.

Are you also trying to say that poison won’t affect ether feast, healing from meditations, shelter, regen or withdraw?

BlackBeard.2873:

Chaith.8256:

Sigils are powerful, build altering options. This is true, but there are no great arguments at this time as to why a single target, avoidable, 6 second duration poison attack after swapping weapons, is objectively better than the the other top swap sigils, or crit sigils.

“Doom Sigil is OP because Celestial Builds can outsustain better.”

I think your wording here has made it evident the problem does not lie within the Doom Sigil but in Celestial Builds. Please tell me about how good Doom Sigil is whenever your profession doesn’t have poison, when anyone who can use Air/Fire is doing so, even if they have no poison.

1. Sigil of Doom isn’t exactly avoidable in most uses. Perhaps against a warrior where you can pay attention to the weapon-swap, but against something like an ele or engie that can swap attunements/kits mid-attack, thus instantly applying, its not really avoidable.

2. High sustain builds on classes like ele and warrior play the attrition game via might-stacking to win. Regardless of cele amulet, soldier (warr), or valks (ele), doom sigil synergizes with that strategy to such a powerful degree and pushes their high-healing over-the-top in a fight by applying so much -healing pressure to opponents. These classes are balanced around not having access to lots of poison.

3. Experience. Fight as a d/d cele ele without doom sigil and you do WAY less pressure than with. I have even watched streams of either OE or you (can’t recall which) from a few months back when people were figuring out the meta, and stating that your pressure is WAY higher (as an engie) when you have doom sigil, even though you had access to a good amount of poison with nades. You can still test this. Play a cele ele or warrior without doom and your TTK goes WAY up, even against non-cele builds. In fact, some fights that would be unfavorable are now in your favor as a cele ele thanks to doom sigil.

Also, fire/air is stupid too, for different reasons, but that should also be fixed as well. However, I will say that builds that use fire/air still have burst potential without these sigils. Cele builds (esp. warr/ele) have NO access to poison in any way without this sigil.

A couple patches ago, killing Phanta with Battle/Doom on my Engi was often impossible without a godly amount of RNG, with Intelligence over Doom, it was possible.

Doom is certainly more fire and forget than Intelligence though, I’ll say that much.

Also, when I dueled Toker’s Acro-SD Thief with Leeching/Doom, I hit maybe like one in 4 due to his ability to dodge most auto-attacks. So I typically went like 30 seconds at a time where Leeching/Doom were literally doing absolutely nothing. Mesmers are similar, Doom/Leeching are totally unreliable with clones eating it/dodging of auto attacks/invulns.

Also everyone in this thread talks about Doom in a 1v1 setting where it most shines. What about other fights where poison upkeep is literally a joke to achieve? Stacking Doom Sigils doesn’t translate into more pressure. This is why things like Battle/Intelligence/Air/Fire shine harder, because Conquest isn’t a long string of 1v1s.

Chaith.8256:

BlackBeard.2873:

Chaith.8256:

Sigils are powerful, build altering options. This is true, but there are no great arguments at this time as to why a single target, avoidable, 6 second duration poison attack after swapping weapons, is objectively better than the the other top swap sigils, or crit sigils.

“Doom Sigil is OP because Celestial Builds can outsustain better.”

I think your wording here has made it evident the problem does not lie within the Doom Sigil but in Celestial Builds. Please tell me about how good Doom Sigil is whenever your profession doesn’t have poison, when anyone who can use Air/Fire is doing so, even if they have no poison.

1. Sigil of Doom isn’t exactly avoidable in most uses. Perhaps against a warrior where you can pay attention to the weapon-swap, but against something like an ele or engie that can swap attunements/kits mid-attack, thus instantly applying, its not really avoidable.

2. High sustain builds on classes like ele and warrior play the attrition game via might-stacking to win. Regardless of cele amulet, soldier (warr), or valks (ele), doom sigil synergizes with that strategy to such a powerful degree and pushes their high-healing over-the-top in a fight by applying so much -healing pressure to opponents. These classes are balanced around not having access to lots of poison.

3. Experience. Fight as a d/d cele ele without doom sigil and you do WAY less pressure than with. I have even watched streams of either OE or you (can’t recall which) from a few months back when people were figuring out the meta, and stating that your pressure is WAY higher (as an engie) when you have doom sigil, even though you had access to a good amount of poison with nades. You can still test this. Play a cele ele or warrior without doom and your TTK goes WAY up, even against non-cele builds. In fact, some fights that would be unfavorable are now in your favor as a cele ele thanks to doom sigil.

Also, fire/air is stupid too, for different reasons, but that should also be fixed as well. However, I will say that builds that use fire/air still have burst potential without these sigils. Cele builds (esp. warr/ele) have NO access to poison in any way without this sigil.

A couple patches ago, killing Phanta with Battle/Doom on my Engi was often impossible without a godly amount of RNG, with Intelligence over Doom, it was possible.

Doom is certainly more fire and forget than Intelligence though, I’ll say that much.

Also, when I dueled Toker’s Acro-SD Thief with Leeching/Doom, I hit maybe like one in 4 due to his ability to dodge most auto-attacks. So I typically went like 30 seconds at a time where Leeching/Doom were literally doing absolutely nothing. Mesmers are similar, Doom/Leeching are totally unreliable with clones eating it/dodging of auto attacks/invulns.

Also everyone in this thread talks about Doom in a 1v1 setting where it most shines. What about other fights where poison upkeep is literally a joke to achieve? Stacking Doom Sigils doesn’t translate into more pressure. This is why things like Battle/Intelligence/Air/Fire shine harder, because Conquest isn’t a long string of 1v1s.

Current meta is 2points snowball where 1 point holder holds 1vs2 long enough to snowaball.

So yes, 1vs1 and 2vs2 are THAT important right now.

1v1/2v2 are 90% of the fights in my spvp games. No idea about pro games.

xDudisx.5914:

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Lol saying generosity is a counter to doom. Yes lets put our hopes in 100% RNGesus…

People saying doom is contering celestial, but most classes that run doom are ele/engi/war the celestial users. It makes as much sense as giving cele engi and cele ele a 50% dmg buff becuase they will counter each other.

Geomancy been op does not make doom any less op. Doom and geomancy were balanced before april’s update.

Generosity/Purity only procs when you have a condition. Otherwise the sigil “sleeps” until there’s a condition on you, then it’ll try procing go on icd.
So more like 60% RNG depending on a number of scebarios.

Doom hurts self sustaining classes like Cele Ele more than it hurts Zerks or other dps classes. I’m not sure what argument you’re trying to make here, but you’re not fooling anyone.

d/d , rifle engi and shoutbow war have way more condis than just doom. So who said you are trasfering doom back? . I’m not sure what argument you’re trying to make here, but you’re not fooling anyone.

Doom is another condition with a very high uptime making even easier for celestial users to stack condis and so do more dmg.

Let me tell my anti-burn guard buddies that burn guards have a high burn uptime from just F1 because our immobilize/blinds/vulnerability gives awesome condition coverage.
No need to have Judge’s Intervention or Torch, yup, we have high uptime in burns already.
….They will have a field day with that kind of logic.

xDudisx.5914:

Are you also trying to say that poison won’t affect ether feast, healing from meditations, shelter, regen or withdraw?

Do you realize how much passive regen Cele Ele and cele Wars have? I’ll say it again, Doom hurts Celestial self-sustaining builds more than Doom hurting dps classes.

xDudisx.5914:

Oh you were going to remove my burning/bleeding? Too back you wasted condi clear in my poison.

Cleansing the most damaging condition in the game, followed by long duration bleeds that are stackable.. now I can actually use my utilities to cleanse poison, or should I save it for the Ele’s fire breath again?

Back to original argument. If you think Doom is That OP (it isn’t) use purity/generosity or other condi Cleansing skills/traits.

Chaith.8256:

BlackBeard.2873:

Chaith.8256:

Sigils are powerful, build altering options. This is true, but there are no great arguments at this time as to why a single target, avoidable, 6 second duration poison attack after swapping weapons, is objectively better than the the other top swap sigils, or crit sigils.

“Doom Sigil is OP because Celestial Builds can outsustain better.”

I think your wording here has made it evident the problem does not lie within the Doom Sigil but in Celestial Builds. Please tell me about how good Doom Sigil is whenever your profession doesn’t have poison, when anyone who can use Air/Fire is doing so, even if they have no poison.

1. Sigil of Doom isn’t exactly avoidable in most uses. Perhaps against a warrior where you can pay attention to the weapon-swap, but against something like an ele or engie that can swap attunements/kits mid-attack, thus instantly applying, its not really avoidable.

2. High sustain builds on classes like ele and warrior play the attrition game via might-stacking to win. Regardless of cele amulet, soldier (warr), or valks (ele), doom sigil synergizes with that strategy to such a powerful degree and pushes their high-healing over-the-top in a fight by applying so much -healing pressure to opponents. These classes are balanced around not having access to lots of poison.

3. Experience. Fight as a d/d cele ele without doom sigil and you do WAY less pressure than with. I have even watched streams of either OE or you (can’t recall which) from a few months back when people were figuring out the meta, and stating that your pressure is WAY higher (as an engie) when you have doom sigil, even though you had access to a good amount of poison with nades. You can still test this. Play a cele ele or warrior without doom and your TTK goes WAY up, even against non-cele builds. In fact, some fights that would be unfavorable are now in your favor as a cele ele thanks to doom sigil.

Also, fire/air is stupid too, for different reasons, but that should also be fixed as well. However, I will say that builds that use fire/air still have burst potential without these sigils. Cele builds (esp. warr/ele) have NO access to poison in any way without this sigil.

A couple patches ago, killing Phanta with Battle/Doom on my Engi was often impossible without a godly amount of RNG, with Intelligence over Doom, it was possible.

Doom is certainly more fire and forget than Intelligence though, I’ll say that much.

Also, when I dueled Toker’s Acro-SD Thief with Leeching/Doom, I hit maybe like one in 4 due to his ability to dodge most auto-attacks. So I typically went like 30 seconds at a time where Leeching/Doom were literally doing absolutely nothing. Mesmers are similar, Doom/Leeching are totally unreliable with clones eating it/dodging of auto attacks/invulns.

Also everyone in this thread talks about Doom in a 1v1 setting where it most shines. What about other fights where poison upkeep is literally a joke to achieve? Stacking Doom Sigils doesn’t translate into more pressure. This is why things like Battle/Intelligence/Air/Fire shine harder, because Conquest isn’t a long string of 1v1s.

For mesmers, you still get the leech on clones tho. Esp when you have geo/leech.

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Saiyan.1704:

xDudisx.5914:

Lol saying generosity is a counter to doom. Yes lets put our hopes in 100% RNGesus…

People saying doom is contering celestial, but most classes that run doom are ele/engi/war the celestial users. It makes as much sense as giving cele engi and cele ele a 50% dmg buff becuase they will counter each other.

Geomancy been op does not make doom any less op. Doom and geomancy were balanced before april’s update.

Generosity/Purity only procs when you have a condition. Otherwise the sigil “sleeps” until there’s a condition on you, then it’ll try procing go on icd.
So more like 60% RNG depending on a number of scebarios.

Doom hurts self sustaining classes like Cele Ele more than it hurts Zerks or other dps classes. I’m not sure what argument you’re trying to make here, but you’re not fooling anyone.

d/d , rifle engi and shoutbow war have way more condis than just doom. So who said you are trasfering doom back? . I’m not sure what argument you’re trying to make here, but you’re not fooling anyone.

Doom is another condition with a very high uptime making even easier for celestial users to stack condis and so do more dmg.

Let me tell my anti-burn guard buddies that burn guards have a high burn uptime from just F1 because our immobilize/blinds/vulnerability gives awesome condition coverage.
No need to have Judge’s Intervention or Torch, yup, we have high uptime in burns already.
….They will have a field day with that kind of logic.

xDudisx.5914:

Are you also trying to say that poison won’t affect ether feast, healing from meditations, shelter, regen or withdraw?

Do you realize how much passive regen Cele Ele and cele Wars have? I’ll say it again, Doom hurts Celestial self-sustaining builds more than Doom hurting dps classes.

xDudisx.5914:

Oh you were going to remove my burning/bleeding? Too back you wasted condi clear in my poison.

Cleansing the most damaging condition in the game, followed by long duration bleeds that are stackable.. now I can actually use my utilities to cleanse poison, or should I save it for the Ele’s fire breath again?

Back to original argument. If you think Doom is That OP (it isn’t) use purity/generosity or other condi Cleansing skills/traits.

Nothing you said makes any sense. Doom just makes the celestial meta more powerful.

Thief and necro don’t even need doom because they have poison and won’t be effected by nerfing doom. Medi guard doesnt use doom. Rangers if power based don’t use doom. If condi they already have poison and dont use doom. Most people running doom are celestial.

Doom is just leting celestial classes reduce everyone else’s healing. The only thing doom does is make cele d/d, rifle engi and war stronger.

Normally the only case where doom is reducing celestial builds’ healing is when they are fighting another celestial build….

Ok so heres a list of changes i made from my experience and every one’s comments in this thread.

-Nerf celestial amulet down to 400 per stat

Ele:

-Increase magnetic grasp to 3/4 sec cast time*
-Half the boons duration provided by elemental attunement to allies (not to the user itself)
-Decrease the damage reduction from frozen aura

Engi:
-Add animation to Overcharge*
-Slick shoes need to be looked at
-Gear block increase cooldown
-Net shot increase cooldown

*: important.

Shiyo.3578:

1v1/2v2 are 90% of the fights in my spvp games. No idea about pro games.

Don’t know how the subject became whether you’re 1v1 or 2v2, but rather the percentage of the time when the target already has poison which can only detract from sigil of Doom’s usefulness. It’s comp dependant mainly! Generally it’s only duelists who take Doom, Eng/Ele/War, but we always have a Thief/Engi/Necro gank the 1v1s literally as soon as possible, and poison will be brought when that happens. Clearly Doom makes sense for Eng/Ele/War duel focused builds but not for much else. Far from an apex predator, as the saying goes.

Key words “As soon as possible”, an ele/warrior will be applying poison in the 1v1 before teammates arrive, meaning the target will be lower health from less healing. That gives the ele/warrior an advantage they shouldn’t have because their class isn’t supposed to have this condition in the first place.

Doom sigil is completely and utterly broken beyond belief because it gives access to one of the strongest debuffs in the entire game with nearly 100% uptime to classes that are NOT supposed to have access to it.

You also need to remember how powerful poison is on downed bodies, where you used to go out of your way to make sure to poison the bodies with actual skills/abilities, but now you “accidently” poison them all the time on classes that shouldn’t even have access to the debuff.

Shiyo.3578:

Key words “As soon as possible”, an ele/warrior will be applying poison in the 1v1 before teammates arrive, meaning the target will be lower health from less healing. That gives the ele/warrior an advantage they shouldn’t have because their class isn’t supposed to have this condition in the first place.

Doom sigil is completely and utterly broken beyond belief because it gives access to one of the strongest debuffs in the entire game with nearly 100% uptime to classes that are NOT supposed to have access to it.

A thief with 6 points in acrobatics and trickery will be applying massive damage from fire and air procs in 1v1 before teammates arrive, meaning the target will be lower health from random passive damage. That gives the thief an advantage they shouldn’t have because a thief build with 6 in acro and trickery should not have this much damage in the first place.

Fire/air sigil is completely and utterly broken beyond belief because it gives access to one of the highest dps in the entire game with random procs that have no tell to builds that are NOT supposed to have access to it.

A warrior (shoutbow, axe, hambow, axe/horn) will be getting guarenteed crit damage on their high damage skills in 1v1 before teammates arrive, meaning the target will be lower health from taking crit damage. That gives warriors an advantage they shouldn’t have when running with soldier or celestial amulet, which have inherently low crit rate in the first place.

Intelligence sigil is completely and utterly broken beyond belief because it gives access to 100% crit chance on the highest single hit damage in the entire game to classes that are NOT supposed to have access to it.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

A thief with 6 points in acrobatics and trickery will be applying massive damage from fire and air procs in 1v1 before teammates arrive, meaning the target will be lower health from random passive damage. That gives the thief an advantage they shouldn’t have because a thief build with 6 in acro and trickery should not have this much damage in the first place.

Fire/air sigil is completely and utterly broken beyond belief because it gives access to one of the highest dps in the entire game with random procs that have no tell to builds that are NOT supposed to have access to it.

A warrior (shoutbow, axe, hambow, axe/horn) will be getting guarenteed crit damage on their high damage skills in 1v1 before teammates arrive, meaning the target will be lower health from taking crit damage. That gives warriors an advantage they shouldn’t have when running with soldier or celestial amulet, which have inherently low crit rate in the first place.

Intelligence sigil is completely and utterly broken beyond belief because it gives access to 100% crit chance on the highest single hit damage in the entire game to classes that are NOT supposed to have access to it.

About fire/air – agreed. That is one thing people have been complaining needs a fix since before the change was even rolled out. This is a mechanic that lacks counterplay, its automatic damage.

Intelligence, while very strong, is a bit different. For one, it is 3 hits that crit, and those hits can be dodged. Intelligence either causes a low damage attack to crit (and who cares then?) or a high-damage attack to do more damage (and which you should have been focused on dodging in the first place). This one actually has some counterplay, imo.

Doom can really only be random-dodged on ele (and to a lesser extent warrior). As Chaith pointed out, you can miss many doom procs agaisnt S/D thief (who spends like 60% of its time in evade frames when its not out of range), but that is due to having MANY random dodges put together.

So…just because air/fire is broken, it doesn’t mean doom can’t be too! I say we fix them both (and other mechanics that lack counterplay)!!!

BlackBeard.2873:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

A thief with 6 points in acrobatics and trickery will be applying massive damage from fire and air procs in 1v1 before teammates arrive, meaning the target will be lower health from random passive damage. That gives the thief an advantage they shouldn’t have because a thief build with 6 in acro and trickery should not have this much damage in the first place.

Fire/air sigil is completely and utterly broken beyond belief because it gives access to one of the highest dps in the entire game with random procs that have no tell to builds that are NOT supposed to have access to it.

A warrior (shoutbow, axe, hambow, axe/horn) will be getting guarenteed crit damage on their high damage skills in 1v1 before teammates arrive, meaning the target will be lower health from taking crit damage. That gives warriors an advantage they shouldn’t have when running with soldier or celestial amulet, which have inherently low crit rate in the first place.

Intelligence sigil is completely and utterly broken beyond belief because it gives access to 100% crit chance on the highest single hit damage in the entire game to classes that are NOT supposed to have access to it.

About fire/air – agreed. That is one thing people have been complaining needs a fix since before the change was even rolled out. This is a mechanic that lacks counterplay, its automatic damage.

Intelligence, while very strong, is a bit different. For one, it is 3 hits that crit, and those hits can be dodged. Intelligence either causes a low damage attack to crit (and who cares then?) or a high-damage attack to do more damage (and which you should have been focused on dodging in the first place). This one actually has some counterplay, imo.

Doom can really only be random-dodged on ele (and to a lesser extent warrior). As Chaith pointed out, you can miss many doom procs agaisnt S/D thief (who spends like 60% of its time in evade frames when its not out of range), but that is due to having MANY random dodges put together.

So…just because air/fire is broken, it doesn’t mean doom can’t be too! I say we fix them both (and other mechanics that lack counterplay)!!!

Kinda like Incendiary Powder, Spinal Shivers Procs, Rune of the nightmare fear, etc. I mean if we are gonna talk about on or two random procs we should talk about them all.

Chaith.8256:

I disagree with your idea of what Celestial is or should be, that’s not exactly clear. Let me start with saying that my opinion over time has changed and I do think the amulet itself should be shaved down to 400 stats in its respective category, down from 438.

You see ‘Celestials’ as D/D Ele or Shoutbow War, but your descriptions of what those professions are actually doing in a match, ie, rolling around, surviving, stacking might, loafing around in mediocrity, that’s just not how it works.

Celestial Ele and Warrior only have their potential unlocked when the player has really mastered playing aggressively as a cohesive unit with the DPS roamers. Shoutbow Warrior can be a big player in winning fights with properly timed Pin Downs, and D/D Ele Updrafts, Earthquakes, Immobilizes, these just ends lives when combo’d with an Engineer or Necro. Someone playing like you describe has no damage game, no CC game.

For example, Phantaram and I can lock select Warriors/Engineers with weak stunbreaks who get caught without them for up to 12 seconds. And that’s not even the maximum, it’s just Earthquake into Updraft, into Overcharged Shot, into Slick Shoes, none of those abilities with a cooldown over 45 seconds.

Once you start tapping into the wreck-your-face mentality, I don’t know how anyone can call Celestials benign might stackers who troll around the point.

I have a question, and I apologize if it is a dumb question. It seems to me that you are suggesting that celestial builds are only really strong in combination with other dps roamers, and that this strength is actually due to the massive amount of cc that can be put out. So, if that’s true, then what will reducing celestial stats by 10% (my guess is that this will translate into only a small reduction of survivability and damage in any case) actually accomplish?

jportell.2197:

BlackBeard.2873:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

A thief with 6 points in acrobatics and trickery will be applying massive damage from fire and air procs in 1v1 before teammates arrive, meaning the target will be lower health from random passive damage. That gives the thief an advantage they shouldn’t have because a thief build with 6 in acro and trickery should not have this much damage in the first place.

Fire/air sigil is completely and utterly broken beyond belief because it gives access to one of the highest dps in the entire game with random procs that have no tell to builds that are NOT supposed to have access to it.

A warrior (shoutbow, axe, hambow, axe/horn) will be getting guarenteed crit damage on their high damage skills in 1v1 before teammates arrive, meaning the target will be lower health from taking crit damage. That gives warriors an advantage they shouldn’t have when running with soldier or celestial amulet, which have inherently low crit rate in the first place.

Intelligence sigil is completely and utterly broken beyond belief because it gives access to 100% crit chance on the highest single hit damage in the entire game to classes that are NOT supposed to have access to it.

About fire/air – agreed. That is one thing people have been complaining needs a fix since before the change was even rolled out. This is a mechanic that lacks counterplay, its automatic damage.

Intelligence, while very strong, is a bit different. For one, it is 3 hits that crit, and those hits can be dodged. Intelligence either causes a low damage attack to crit (and who cares then?) or a high-damage attack to do more damage (and which you should have been focused on dodging in the first place). This one actually has some counterplay, imo.

Doom can really only be random-dodged on ele (and to a lesser extent warrior). As Chaith pointed out, you can miss many doom procs agaisnt S/D thief (who spends like 60% of its time in evade frames when its not out of range), but that is due to having MANY random dodges put together.

So…just because air/fire is broken, it doesn’t mean doom can’t be too! I say we fix them both (and other mechanics that lack counterplay)!!!

Kinda like Incendiary Powder, Spinal Shivers Procs, Rune of the nightmare fear, etc. I mean if we are gonna talk about on or two random procs we should talk about them all.

I was just providing two examples to undermine his complaint about doom sigils.

jportell.2197:

Kinda like Incendiary Powder, Spinal Shivers Procs, Rune of the nightmare fear, etc. I mean if we are gonna talk about on or two random procs we should talk about them all.

Of course, but that is getting WAY off-topic. More relevant is the power that doom sigil gives to the celestial builds and makes them stronger.

When people say mostly doom sigil users are celestial, why stick to only meta builds? I can’t remember the last I didn’t equip that sigil on condi war,or condi shatter mesmer even condition guard. Energy goes for necro and shatter mesmer as well,stop referring to only meta builds when making discussions like these or is because it affects the meta build you are using…?