Guild Wars 2

Fixing the forum bug.

Cynz.9437:

Problem 1: CD needs to go, this change was uncalled for on first place.

Problem 2: either massive AoE spam needs to go from all classes or thief needs ways to deal with it. Changing all classes like this would require a lot of work, take also pve into account – it won’t happen. Only way would be giving thief some kind of buff while in stealth to deal with AoE, e.g. reduce damage taken from all sources (ik there is SA trait, but SA itself is laughable compared to DD atm so nobody will take it) – but then everyone would cry that they can’t kill thief and stealth camping would be even more prevalent.

Problem 3: as with problem 2, it would require quite few nerfs to survival of other classes. Let’s assume Anet does implement it. It would once again heavily affect raids, wvw and interaction between those classes. Anet could also give thieves better way to land backstab (e.g. make it unblockable/ignoring protection if landed from behind on X CD) but then people relying on all their passives will cry rivers that they are dying to backstab.

Bottom line: thief is a glassy damage dealer that gave up everything but mobility and stealth for damage. They are meant to do damage. Regardless in what way they are dealing damage, players will be never satisfied and will complain about the class. The joke is, thief damage is still 99% single target, unlike traps and co.
.

Ok thanks for the reply and I would like to now talk about some of the points you mentioned above.

1. You mentioned that the CD on backstab needs to go and yes I 100% agree that it needs to go so we’re on the same page there.

2. The aoe is annoying but it actually balances out thieves mobility. Thief was designed as a hit and run type of class, while others like guardians are meant to hold a point. The Issue here is that HoT gave other classes that were meant to be point holders more mobility, making it more difficult for thief to do its job, and gave everyone more defenses so thieves can’t +1 as effectively.

3. If you look at metabattle and look at the builds for raids and fractals you’ll see that they mainly focus on dps. Reducing their Defenses wouldn’t actually cause them too many problems. If you remove their dps then they will cry. Look at pve scrappers as an example, they cry about having low dps after the damage nerf and would have preferred to lose things like their reflects and blocks from the hammer since raids and fractals are all about how fast you can kill things. Don’t forget that in wvw things like midline support tempest would still be a thing if you reduced their ability to tank (tempest not eles since HoT is the problem.), because they have tank gear like nomads.

In general, just try to remember that thieves were not seen as op back when they changed the trait system and updated condition damage. If HoT and all its over the top defenses didn’t come in the game and thieves got their auto attack boost and their stealth attacks didn’t have the 1s CD, we would be in a much better place today. The only exception would have been condition builds since they were never addressed since HoT made a huge mess covering them up. The first goal that I would like to achieve is reducing all these over the top defenses to the point where we can bring tank amulets back in pvp. Honestly the best rout for this to go is to strip those defenses first and not touch damage (that would mean leaving PI alone for now). After these changes what would most likely happen is people would then cry about PI more, then it would justified to place an ICD to the trait ID and taking a look at other over the top traits and skills on thief.

DeceiverX.8361:

apharma.3741:

Moises.2196:

apharma.3741:

Moises.2196:

Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.

Editted it down to the part that’s relevant not because of any underhandedness.

The thing is I’ve seen a lot of nerf mesmer threads as well, it’s not until you explain that a mesmers shield is the highest cool down block for duration in the entire game that people start to realise maybe it’s not actually imbalanced.

Anyway as I’ve said many times as well a lot of HoT things need toning down, I posted in the mesmer section a long time ago how I would reduce the class to how I thought the elite spec should be.

I can’t find it but I’ll give you the gist of it, no continuum split, alacrity mesmer only mechanic, less quickness and even then chrono would be a trait line that would be a good option in many cases. However it would be utterly attrocious if every other class was left the same way and I would expect some seriously deep nerfs to others as well.

The point is moot though as ANet clearly showed with the first 2 balance patches that they would rather change core aspects than nerf the power creeped HoT specs and the clear imbalances within them.

I agree with this 100%, and yes I feel that if the community had these discussions we would be able to come to an agreement across all classes and player base, but anet keeps going at it the wrong way. I’m hoping that if we have more discussions like this where the community can agree on nerfs and buffs than anet might eventually see what we are really asking for which is a balanced game that is fun.

The thing is mesmer wouldn’t be in a great place with the above suggestion (though it would bring the elite spec in line) as they still have pathetic sustained damage due to balancing around clones and phantasms. It might also delete them from PvE and WvW roaming would be back to core mesmer most likely because stealth is so OP there.

Even nerfs on this level to other classes doesn’t really help as there are deep seated issues within the classes. HoT pets for ranger are way too tanky in 1v1s but die super easy in team fights, ele does not have anything but support builds as they don’t have the tools to be a roamer or a bruiser anymore, thief having bouncing off the walls crazy mobility but no ability to be a team fighter. That’s just to name a few.

Thing is, this was to be expected as soon as we saw a PvE-oriented design focus.

I’d really like to just see a big step away from the trend they’ve followed and make the nature of the game much simpler; to deal damage, you need to attack and make yourself vulnerable on some level; to negate damage, you need to stop attacking and defend. Aside from a very select few weapon skills like Pistol Whip, Blurred Frenzy, and the occasional major cooldown like Endure Pain or well-timed Virtue of Courage every 30+ seconds. Nothing or very little should be able to do both at the same time without some very serious investment/pre-cast animations.

Ok so I want to see nerfs across all elite specs in one way or another as they are all a bit over the top, but things like focus on mez I would like to see buffed. I would say something like every time the phantasmal warden attacked is would apply weakness to foes aoe 240 or something and and into the void would do something extra like strip 1 boon from nearby foes and apply reveal aoe. Same thing for things like warrior offhand axe should destroy incoming projectiles (not reflect). Those are things I would like to see, but there are bigger issues hindering people from enjoying the game.

As for the big step in making the game simpler like you said I agree. I would say that things like Shield of Courage are the problem in this case. I think that that skill shouldn’t allow the guardian to attack without dropping it first as it is an aoe block that can be used for your allies. Warrior Endure pain would be fine if they reduce how long it lasted from 4s to 3s and reduce the cooldown to 50s since they updated the trait Defy pain making power builds just sit there watching them heal and go ham.

Weakness is too powerful of an effect to apply as an AoE and be re-applied so quickly. AoE reveal is also completely excessive; stealth stacking for all professions – scrapper, mesmer, ranger, and including thief, need nerfs, not more forced reveals.

DeceiverX.8361:

Weakness is too powerful of an effect to apply as an AoE and be re-applied so quickly. AoE reveal is also completely excessive; stealth stacking for all professions – scrapper, mesmer, ranger, and including thief, need nerfs, not more forced reveals.

Just a wild thought, but I would like to see more more utility on under used skills and weapons to see some more verity in pvp.

DeceiverX.8361:

Weakness is too powerful of an effect to apply as an AoE and be re-applied so quickly. AoE reveal is also completely excessive; stealth stacking for all professions – scrapper, mesmer, ranger, and including thief, need nerfs, not more forced reveals.

Warden attacks relatively slowly and can’t move once his attack starts. If it applied weakness at the end of it, it would allow for suitable counterplay of just simply walking away from it.

Not necessarily advocating to put weakness on the iWarden, but I don’t think it would be too powerful if done correctly.

OriOri.8724:

Azukas.1426:

apharma.3741:

Azukas.1426:

So by your irrefutable math PI hits for 4k in PvP……yeah I’ma just let you truck on with that one.

Defense rests.

Next.

If you want to do the math I laid it all out there for you to check. The reason PI doesn’t usually do 4k in PvP is many targets have protection when it hits as it’s a delayed hit. Still doesn’t change the base damage of the skill or how strong it is.

What defence? You haven’t disproved a single thing I’ve put where as I have put factual information backed up with mathematics which the game is based on.

PI doesn’t hit for 4k in PvP

Consider yourself disproven

This is just nitpicky. But if someone has protection up, PI only has to hit for 2,680 for it to have done 4,000 damage to someone without prot. Besides, you haven’t disproven anything, all you’ve done is say

“It doesn’t happen, therefore you are wrong.”

That’s not proving anything, its almost the exact opposite of debating

You’re not going to hit for 2600 on someone with protection b/c you will never hit 4k. It’s as simple as that

4k PI is definitely doable. Not the result of the meta build in most circumstances per se, but easily doable considering it only requires like a 7.5k backstab crit -equivalent of power given marauder amulet.

So like DA with Executioner + EW and Bound + Lead Attacks on Trickery will get you there with no problems.

DeceiverX.8361:

4k PI is definitely doable. Not the result of the meta build in most circumstances per se, but easily doable considering it only requires like a 7.5k backstab crit -equivalent of power given marauder amulet.

So like DA with Executioner + EW and Bound + Lead Attacks on Trickery will get you there with no problems.

Yet still not overpowered. 4k is not a lot of damage. I get that and more off a Shadow shot or the AA chain or a HS off a DP build.

It does not matter that it spammable as the counter to this is INI lost.

All that happens when they start removing Thief Damage from the INI type skills is more pressure is put on them having to deal damage with the AA type skills because the damage has to come from someplace and it has to come quickly in a class that is so fragile in other respects.

Added to that people seem unable to clue into the fact that damage is damage.

My warrior can chain together a headbutt with a ponmmle strike, shield smash and Mace burst for 4 interrupts chained in a row. The damage from all of these attacks is not predicated on an interrupt. It up front raw damage. The headbutt alone can do 10k easily WITHOUT needing to interrupt a skill meaning it not a waste if I do not manage to get an interrupt.

If a thief spams a head shot at me I can afford to eat the damage as there little on the raw attack. I can do nothing and take 4 headshots in a row and take little damage. Very few can afford to just eat a headbutt or a burst attack from a mace because even if they do not manage an interrupt they deal out lots of damage.

DeceiverX.8361:

cut AoE reveal is also completely excessive; stealth stacking for all professions – scrapper, mesmer, ranger, and including thief, need nerfs, not more forced reveals.

Off topic but true.

This is forcing the “evade spam” your seeing from every thief. the fact of the matter is in pvp stealth is one of the worst defensive mechanic in the game. changes like reveal, the increase of Aoe / channels and procs. and even small Qol changes like “auto turn before shooting a projectile” have invalidated stealth as a defense.
Evade or die.

Anyway, alot of these posts might seem off topic but there necessary, thieves are a fickle beast to balance

DeceiverX.8361:

4k PI is definitely doable. Not the result of the meta build in most circumstances per se, but easily doable considering it only requires like a 7.5k backstab crit -equivalent of power given marauder amulet.

So like DA with Executioner + EW and Bound + Lead Attacks on Trickery will get you there with no problems.

The meta build is basically that w/out bound instead of dash. An extra 10% damage isn’t going to get you 4k PI’s.

Like I said earlier I’m waiting for someone to actually refute my previous points that pretty much put this thread to rest. All we have now is ppl posting more thinking that will validate this farce.

The great thing about looking at damage values in a vacuum is they will never be accurate except under those perfect conditions. If it’s in an actual fight there are so many different variables that make trying to determine the number s in a vacuum irrelevant.

fishball.7204:

Maybe increase the initiative cost a little bit, right now it feels very spammable

I agree with this statement!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Anyone else tried Distracting Dagger plus Pulmonary Impact? by its current design and tool tip description they synergize pretty well. i might be wrong ofcourse.

Azukas.1426:

Azukas.1426:

I’m a mesmer main and I’ve seen this type of thread many times before. So I will post what I’ve always posted in these threads.

You have to look at the grand scheme of things in terms of PI. In those terms nothing about the Thief is OP. The only class that actually has a,decent gripe is necro, but if you should never be left to 1v1 a thief anyways. If you find you are in one vs a thief and die….that is a l2p issue on you and your team. Same with rev.

Now on each of those classes while you are countered you can survive a 1v1 long enough for a +1.

Now the other 6 classes pretty much hard or soft counter thief. This is with the OP PI trait too. So if you are dying 1v1 to a thief on one of these other classes then PI is not the problem. You are. Also if you are unable to hold out in a 1v1 with a thief long enough for a rotation to help you while on a necro or rev, PI is not the problem…you are.

No changes at this time are warranted to PI based on the current state of the entire game.

Thank you and /thread

This has not been refuted and pretty much shut the door on ANY argument for the nerfing of thief.

Until one you can prove this wrong this thread is over and the mods should lock it for spam/trolling/etc.

Thank you and /thread

You are not helping with the general health of the game when you do this and try to end discussions. As it stands, you are correct to say that it is not warranted to nerf impact disruption, but it doesn’t change the fact that ID is a broken trait. What you should be doing instead is ask for something in return or better yet a nerf to the other classes to warrant the nerf. I don’t know about you, but if the other classes didn’t have so many defenses that allow dps builds to run around care free like tanks (which is what pushed everyone to the bunker meta, which then led to the removal of tank amulets to hide the problem) than I would be just fine with ID getting an ICD. And don’t say I’m derailing the conversation, I’m trying to move it to a more productive one where we can talk about compromise instead of shouting yes or no. What would you want in return if we were to place an ICD on ID? It doesn’t have to be a whole list of buffs and nerfs just a general change like a decrease in elite specs damage, or defenses, or abundance of utility or boon spam.

Potato.2567:

fishball.7204:

Maybe increase the initiative cost a little bit, right now it feels very spammable

I agree with this statement!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

This hurts core thief which is already in a bad place. What you want to do is nerf elite specs without hurting core classes.

Azukas.1426:

OriOri.8724:

Azukas.1426:

OriOri.8724:

The amount of people defending a broken design is absolutely ridiculous. Have you thief players ever stopped and considered that the fact that thief is so reliant on these cheese gimmicks is because part of the design of the class is flawed? No, putting an ICD on ID will not kill thief, it just won’t.

But what I really can’t understand is why you thief players so adamantly defend cheese mechanics on a thief. Every single time it comes up you guys come rushing in with “But we need it! Otherwise thief will be trash.” Its either “Its not OP” (which doesn’t mean it isn’t a fundamentally flawed design) or “if you nerf/remove this thief will never be competitive again”. If you rely on 1 or 2 cheese gimmicks to be competitive (which you actually don’t anyway) then the class needs to be redesigned.

Quit kittening whining and get out of denial. Some features of your class are just pure bad design and need to be redone. And when they are, thief will no longer be this one trick pony that it is right now, you will no longer be reliant on cheese mechanics just to be effective.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistrust

vs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pulmonary_Impact_

PI can’t crit, but power block can. Mistrust gives out 4 stacks of confusion which is insane damage that will eclipse a PI proc with like 1-2 tics + skill use.

Oh and I main mesmer so before you go on about headshot being spammable or some other kitten we mesmers can chain interrupts just as well.

So like I said until one of you refutes my original post please let this thread die.

Thank You

No one needs to refute your original post because all it is doing is trying to derail this thread, exactly like you are doing with this post. This is a thread about thiefs, not mesmers. Even then though, yes mesmers can chain interrupts but it requires more than 1 skill on the bar to do so, unlike thief. To chain 3 interrupts, a mesmer would have to use 3 different skills on their bar, and power lock has a 4 second cooldown itself regardless. Thief only has to burn 1 skill to do the same thing. This thread is about thieves however, not about mesmers. Trying to turn the discussion back to mesmers is doing nothing more than trying to derail the thread because you can’t actually defend the point at hand.

Huh? Is this a serious post or are you really posting this?

Please let me know

Thank you

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Can-thief-apply-9-10-boons-at-once/first#post6459497

That pretty much confirms what I initially thought and now is the time for you to honestly put some time into PvP. Focus on the classes you have issues with (like thief) and learn the ways to counter what they do.

See you have it easy b/c mesmer actually counters thief right now. Back in the day most of us mesmer mains had to learn how to fight thieves when we were hard countered by them.

If you need help look up the pro mesmers streams and duel your guildies/friends/enemies constantly. PvP takes lots of practice and the willingness to learn instead of blame Anet.

Thank you

Azukas.1426:

Azukas.1426:

OriOri.8724:

Azukas.1426:

OriOri.8724:

The amount of people defending a broken design is absolutely ridiculous. Have you thief players ever stopped and considered that the fact that thief is so reliant on these cheese gimmicks is because part of the design of the class is flawed? No, putting an ICD on ID will not kill thief, it just won’t.

But what I really can’t understand is why you thief players so adamantly defend cheese mechanics on a thief. Every single time it comes up you guys come rushing in with “But we need it! Otherwise thief will be trash.” Its either “Its not OP” (which doesn’t mean it isn’t a fundamentally flawed design) or “if you nerf/remove this thief will never be competitive again”. If you rely on 1 or 2 cheese gimmicks to be competitive (which you actually don’t anyway) then the class needs to be redesigned.

Quit kittening whining and get out of denial. Some features of your class are just pure bad design and need to be redone. And when they are, thief will no longer be this one trick pony that it is right now, you will no longer be reliant on cheese mechanics just to be effective.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistrust

vs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pulmonary_Impact_

PI can’t crit, but power block can. Mistrust gives out 4 stacks of confusion which is insane damage that will eclipse a PI proc with like 1-2 tics + skill use.

Oh and I main mesmer so before you go on about headshot being spammable or some other kitten we mesmers can chain interrupts just as well.

So like I said until one of you refutes my original post please let this thread die.

Thank You

No one needs to refute your original post because all it is doing is trying to derail this thread, exactly like you are doing with this post. This is a thread about thiefs, not mesmers. Even then though, yes mesmers can chain interrupts but it requires more than 1 skill on the bar to do so, unlike thief. To chain 3 interrupts, a mesmer would have to use 3 different skills on their bar, and power lock has a 4 second cooldown itself regardless. Thief only has to burn 1 skill to do the same thing. This thread is about thieves however, not about mesmers. Trying to turn the discussion back to mesmers is doing nothing more than trying to derail the thread because you can’t actually defend the point at hand.

Huh? Is this a serious post or are you really posting this?

Please let me know

Thank you

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Can-thief-apply-9-10-boons-at-once/first#post6459497

That pretty much confirms what I initially thought and now is the time for you to honestly put some time into PvP. Focus on the classes you have issues with (like thief) and learn the ways to counter what they do.

See you have it easy b/c mesmer actually counters thief right now. Back in the day most of us mesmer mains had to learn how to fight thieves when we were hard countered by them.

If you need help look up the pro mesmers streams and duel your guildies/friends/enemies constantly. PvP takes lots of practice and the willingness to learn instead of blame Anet.

Thank you

OMG, nice find Azukas.

reduce the damage. its the only way that makes sense. also don’t spam your skills and die to pi, but pi is still ridiculous.
forcing a player to dodge it or eat it is ludicrous lol. no one in their right mind is going to waste a dodge on pi unless theyre on their last leg.

Stand The Wall.6987:

reduce the damage. its the only way that makes sense. also don’t spam your skills and die to pi, but pi is still ridiculous.
forcing a player to dodge it or eat it is ludicrous lol. no one in their right mind is going to waste a dodge on pi unless theyre on their last leg.

OR you could just stow weapons… which is free. Thief is not the highest damage dealer in game, they are also squishiest class and yet you demand nerfs. What a joke.

All classes have tools to deal with thief damage (i can pretty much facetank everything thief throws at me as scrapper), the only class that somehow anywhere could complain about PI is necro. However necros hardcounter scrappers so hard, i don’t think they have any right to complain about any counters.

Cynz.9437:

Stand The Wall.6987:

reduce the damage. its the only way that makes sense. also don’t spam your skills and die to pi, but pi is still ridiculous.
forcing a player to dodge it or eat it is ludicrous lol. no one in their right mind is going to waste a dodge on pi unless theyre on their last leg.

OR you could just stow weapons… which is free

Then you die to 1 spam.

So,which one is the problem? Impact Disruption or Pulmonary Impact? I’m confused thought was Headshot.

Chapell.1346:

So,which one is the problem? Impact Disruption or Pulmonary Impact? I’m confused thought was Headshot.

everything that does damage

they just want thief not to do any damage at all, just look at this vv

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

Stand The Wall.6987:

reduce the damage. its the only way that makes sense. also don’t spam your skills and die to pi, but pi is still ridiculous.
forcing a player to dodge it or eat it is ludicrous lol. no one in their right mind is going to waste a dodge on pi unless theyre on their last leg.

OR you could just stow weapons… which is free

Then you die to 1 spam.

@Henry: shall we talk about necro’s undodgable procs, weapon swap, passives etc.? Or how i get hit by mark w/o being on the mark but if someone else triggers it i still eat full stack of condi and dmg? Should we talk about how i get near full bar of condis by simply landing few attacks on necro? Should we talk about necro AA that corrupts boons for free? Should we talk about all the AoE necro throws around and that hits you through walls and requires 0 targeting? I have to dodge necros AA otherwise i would get instagibbed pretty quickly.

The issue is not impact damage in a vacuum, the problem is when you slap the 3k impact on top of all the other damage sources thief has. After a thief opens on someone and drops them below 50% he can keep his distance and kill with timing headshots. The design is not fun to play against especially if you are on a class with poor stability access.
The most elegant solution would be to add a ~5 sec cd to the trait and go from there, also make it unable to proc on auto attacks.

@cynz: why are you adamant about defending this one trait? thief will do fine if it gets nerfed, the class role will stay the same it will simply mean you actually have to be more involved in a fight to win it rather than haphazardly using headshot.

^ pretty sure that’s the whole point of thief isn’kitten To bust down unsuspected foes, ganking low healthed people. You’re lucky that in pvp maps there are a lot of obsticles to hide behind after said burst, in wvw you have no luxury of that at all.

foste.3098:

The issue is not impact damage in a vacuum, the problem is when you slap the 3k impact on top of all the other damage sources thief has. After a thief opens on someone and drops them below 50% he can keep his distance and kill with timing headshots. The design is not fun to play against especially if you are on a class with poor stability access.
The most elegant solution would be to add a ~5 sec cd to the trait and go from there, also make it unable to proc on auto attacks.

@cynz: why are you adamant about defending this one trait? thief will do fine if it gets nerfed, the class role will stay the same it will simply mean you actually have to be more involved in a fight to win it rather than haphazardly using headshot.

Again, have you ever played thief yourself? I’ll reply to this once and for all. The classes thief struggles to kill are the ones who are 1v1ing already (war, druid, engi) yes? These all have access to stab/reflects/stealth not to mention invulns/blocks. Do you know how hard it is to successfully +1 any of these targets? You barely touch an engi you actually take more cleave damage/retaliation damage than you pump out yourself, now try to imagine that you nerf PI on top of this what do you think will happen to the meta? People fail to realise that targets that thief easily kill are DPS’ers doing 1v1s (this is obviously a flaw in your rotation if you are fighting against thieves and you should know that you are gonna get +1’d there for you should play safe and be ready to start kiting/jumping on spots where you can’t port/steal) or not take 1v1s if you don’t understand how to play against thieves.

You’ll get full bunker setups that will be unkillable with a necro as main source of damage. Mark my words that if you nerf thief after having nerfed rev this is what will happen:)

foste.3098:

The issue is not impact damage in a vacuum, the problem is when you slap the 3k impact on top of all the other damage sources thief has. After a thief opens on someone and drops them below 50% he can keep his distance and kill with timing headshots. The design is not fun to play against especially if you are on a class with poor stability access.
The most elegant solution would be to add a ~5 sec cd to the trait and go from there, also make it unable to proc on auto attacks.

@cynz: why are you adamant about defending this one trait? thief will do fine if it gets nerfed, the class role will stay the same it will simply mean you actually have to be more involved in a fight to win it rather than haphazardly using headshot.

because thief doesn’t have luxury to stay in fights for long due to absurd amount of AoE…. as any other classes (even as necro) you can take take some beating, thief can’t, 1-2 hits -> he is dead

headshot with IP is at least second source of damage beside AA and it allows thief not exactly eat every single aoe on point

look at video that Sind posted, look, how despite all that “legendary” burst even best thief on EU can’t really drop enemy (no offense at Sind, tnks for posting btw)

game should not be based around bronze players that don’t even have stow weapon keybinded but this is what you are asking for

do me a favor, go make a thief w/o IP, play it vs plat/legend team, record your games so we can all see how thief is “fine”

@cynz if the entire class is dependent on a single trait to function then the class itself is the issue,i realize allot of classes have a trait they more or less need depending on the meta but thief is also tied to a weapon set which makes it double bad. I don’t want to nerf pi or whatnot just because lul nerf teef i genuinely think the trait design as is now is not fun to play against.
Also i used to main a thief so i know all the ins and outs of the class but gave it up since it became boring and stagnate.

This is off topic but what will happen when we get another elite spec next expansion? Core thief still has strong mobility so if the new elite line ends up as a support line that will pose an issue, same if it ends up as a bunker line of some sort. I bring this up because anet might nerf core thief again (like they did to acro) in order to justify the next elite spec.

This “4k is too much” damage stuff is beyond ridiculous. This is not just about head shot. There are people that want shadow shot damage dropped, vault damage dropped , heartseeker damage dropped, all of which leads to more reliance on the AA for damage and the same people complain the AA damage too high.

4k off a PI spam is in virtually ideal conditions. It does not happen against heavy armors because it can not crit. It does not happen in a spam due to reflects stab protection blocks and the like. This is just more of the same people losing to a theif because they can not adapt to a thief style then running to the boards with another “nerf evade, nerf dodges, nerf stealth, nerf mobility” type argument.

I have three thieves using the DD line currently and two core. Only one of the three uses PI. That ones damage is not exceptionally better. It just a different playstyle. EA is still used by as many and more thieves. A good number use Staff mastery.

Why do I use PI in the one? It because I traited to be a low crit build overloading on power and getting a bit more toughness and vitality to survive longer. It gives an option to get some amount of damage without having to crit. my high crit rate thief skips PI to take EA and pumps out just as much damage overall. They just fight differently. Where the one without PI has to get in close and deal with tall that at your feet AOE or those DH traps , the latter can stay at range and still do decent damage.

Being able to stay at range to time damage is not an argument against this skill. All kinds of classes can stay at range and do damage.

As to not proccing on autoattacks. That just more of a double standard. Confusion procs on Autoattacks . What is the difference? If you can interrupt an autoattack then you can interrupt an autoattack . You are still going to get a lot less in the way of interrupts on an AA then is a person with Confusion on them going to trigger damage by using their AA.

My Condition warrior can chain together 4 interrupts in short order each applying 4 stacks of confusion. What do you thing happens to a person with 16 stacks of confusion that tries an AA?

foste.3098:

@cynz if the entire class is dependent on a single trait to function then the class itself is the issue,i realize allot of classes have a trait they more or less need depending on the meta but thief is also tied to a weapon set which makes it double bad. I don’t want to nerf pi or whatnot just because lul nerf teef i genuinely think the trait design as is now is not fun to play against.
Also i used to main a thief so i know all the ins and outs of the class but gave it up since it became boring and stagnate.

This is off topic but what will happen when we get another elite spec next expansion? Core thief still has strong mobility so if the new elite line ends up as a support line that will pose an issue, same if it ends up as a bunker line of some sort. I bring this up because anet might nerf core thief again (like they did to acro) in order to justify the next elite spec.

well they nerfed all stealth spells, bp, heartseeker, headshot, mug over the years and buffed other classes survivability to absurd levels (hello warriors)… ofc only thing that is left is PI and AA (for dp that is, staff is different story)

i am not fan of PI either but i wasn’t the one begging for backstab nerfs…. posters like OP did, which led to thieves relying so heavily on PI on first place…

The backstab nerf? You mean it doesn’t crit for 12k (or 18k in wvw) anymore? And you still think this nerf wasn’t necessary?

shagwell.1349:

The backstab nerf? You mean it doesn’t crit for 12k (or 18k in wvw) anymore? And you still think this nerf wasn’t necessary?

love how uttely clueless people are allowed to post here

make sure you read this aswell: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-July-26-2016-1/first#post6257502

It should not trigger on auto attacks. That goes for all “on interrupt” traits/skills in the game, though.

Erzian.5218:

It should not trigger on auto attacks. That goes for all “on interrupt” traits/skills in the game, though.

My programmer’s gut tells me that the game engine makes no distinctions between AA casts and any other cast.

A ICD would make more sense anyways.

Crinn.7864:

Erzian.5218:

It should not trigger on auto attacks. That goes for all “on interrupt” traits/skills in the game, though.

My programmer’s gut tells me that the game engine makes no distinctions between AA casts and any other cast.

A ICD would make more sense anyways.

Code is already there, as they changed mesmer’s power block to only increase CD of non autoattack skills.

foste.3098:

@cynz if the entire class is dependent on a single trait to function then the class itself is the issue,

Except the class isn’t dependent on that trait. If Impacting Disruption was deleted from the game, thieves would still win all the same matchups that they already win, and lose all the same matchups that they already lose.

ID is a totally superfluous trait that has done nothing but promote mindless interrupt use.

Crinn.7864:

foste.3098:

@cynz if the entire class is dependent on a single trait to function then the class itself is the issue,

Except the class isn’t dependent on that trait. If Impacting Disruption was deleted from the game, thieves would still win all the same matchups that they already win, and lose all the same matchups that they already lose.

ID is a totally superfluous trait that has done nothing but promote mindless interrupt use.

You mean like The mindless Warrior interrupt use?

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

foste.3098:

@cynz if the entire class is dependent on a single trait to function then the class itself is the issue,

Except the class isn’t dependent on that trait. If Impacting Disruption was deleted from the game, thieves would still win all the same matchups that they already win, and lose all the same matchups that they already lose.

ID is a totally superfluous trait that has done nothing but promote mindless interrupt use.

You mean like The mindless Warrior interrupt use?

You use a interrupt wrong on a warrior and it goes on full CD. You use a interrupt wrong on a thief and it’s ok because #noCD.

Also warriors CC is used differently. Warriors typically use CC to set up their burst. Thieves use CC just to interrupt.

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

foste.3098:

@cynz if the entire class is dependent on a single trait to function then the class itself is the issue,

Except the class isn’t dependent on that trait. If Impacting Disruption was deleted from the game, thieves would still win all the same matchups that they already win, and lose all the same matchups that they already lose.

ID is a totally superfluous trait that has done nothing but promote mindless interrupt use.

You mean like The mindless Warrior interrupt use?

You use a interrupt wrong on a warrior and it goes on full CD. You use a interrupt wrong on a thief and it’s ok because #noCD.

Also warriors CC is used differently. Warriors typically use CC to set up their burst. Thieves use CC just to interrupt.

Hmm interesting except that Initiative used does count as a sort of CD it’s not like Thieves have unlimited Initiative, they blow their Initiative guess what they have to wait for more.

And yeah " setup"burst right.. when majority of Warrior Interrupts do a significant amount of damage sans pommel bash and are all on relatively low CDs. I.e. Besides pommel bash all Warrior Interrupts are 1.0 to 3.0 damage Coefficients, not to mention their lowest CD interrupt also Applies multiple conditions and can be virtually spammed.

What is a Cc used for besides interrupting or locking down players? Oh yeah that’s exactly what they used for funny isn’kitten

And guess what for the Warriors Damage from those skills he doesn’t even need to interrupt a skill.

#FunFacts!

Erzian.5218:

Crinn.7864:

Erzian.5218:

It should not trigger on auto attacks. That goes for all “on interrupt” traits/skills in the game, though.

My programmer’s gut tells me that the game engine makes no distinctions between AA casts and any other cast.

A ICD would make more sense anyways.

Code is already there, as they changed mesmer’s power block to only increase CD of non autoattack skills.

Autoattacks don’t have a CD to increase though.

Power block used to trigger on auto attacks, they changed it so that it only affects other skills. Therefore the technology to distinguish between autoattacks and other skills is most likely already there. Even if it wasn’t, it should be very simple to implement. It is literally 1 if-statement or 1 if-statement per interrupt skill/trait at worst (which are only a few).

Cynz.9437:

OR you could just stow weapons… which is free. Thief is not the highest damage dealer in game, they are also squishiest class and yet you demand nerfs. What a joke.

that’s a good point for weapon skills. no I’m not demanding anything just pointing out what makes the most sense. if it was nerfed I would expect something else to get buffed as a result.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm interesting except that Initiative used does count as a sort of CD it’s not like Thieves have unlimited Initiative, they blow their Initiative guess what they have to wait for more.

Ini management isn’t rocket science.

And yeah " setup"burst right.. when majority of Warrior Interrupts do a significant amount of damage sans pommel bash and are all on relatively low CDs.

Skullgrinder and Headbutt are the only CC that deal notable damage. Nobody ever died from Shield Bash damage.
Skullgrinder is a issue to itself but that is not the purview of this thread.

What is a Cc used for besides interrupting or locking down players? Oh yeah that’s exactly what they used for funny isn’kitten

Warriors use CC to hold the target in place for their burst. Thieves use CC to interrupt. The usage is completely different.

Also warriors fulfill a completely and utterly different role than thieves. Something you and Cynz like to ignore in your effort to point the thread away.

whatever if pi gets nerfed you’ll just see more staff thief spamming 10K vault, then everybody will ask for staff nerf. maybe i’ll go war so I can do insta undodgeable 8k arcing slice lel
ps: people proposing to add a cast time to headshot are missing the whole point btw

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hmm interesting except that Initiative used does count as a sort of CD it’s not like Thieves have unlimited Initiative, they blow their Initiative guess what they have to wait for more.

Ini management isn’t rocket science.

And yeah " setup"burst right.. when majority of Warrior Interrupts do a significant amount of damage sans pommel bash and are all on relatively low CDs.

Skullgrinder and Headbutt are the only CC that deal notable damage. Nobody ever died from Shield Bash damage.
Skullgrinder is a issue to itself but that is not the purview of this thread.

What is a Cc used for besides interrupting or locking down players? Oh yeah that’s exactly what they used for funny isn’kitten

Warriors use CC to hold the target in place for their burst. Thieves use CC to interrupt. The usage is completely different.

Also warriors fulfill a completely and utterly different role than thieves. Something you and Cynz like to ignore in your effort to point the thread away.

Not ignoring anything I look at everything and draw parallels since Warriors unlike you, for the environment PI with Headshot isn’t OP. There are classes that do similar things like Chain CCs together that do a significant amount of damage.

It doesn’t matter what role they play(FYI warrior can fulfill the +1 and Decap Role that Thief fills) they can achieve similar results using CCs which are there to interrupt and lock down players while dealing respectable damage, omg look both can do that, how can you justify one vs the other? Especially when one has more sustain than the other and achieve similar results and guess what it’s not the Thief with that sustain.

So until they go through and balance every class and rain. In the HoT powercreep PI is perfectly fine, so quit QQing. Because if you are dying to PI it’s not because it’s OP.

And the thieves in this thread continue to deflect.

“It shouldn’t be changed because other classes have OP mechanics/skills/traits.”

Every elite spec still needs to be nerfed, trying to deflect isn’t any sort of argument to keep ID without an ICD

OriOri.8724:

And the thieves in this thread continue to deflect.

“It shouldn’t be changed because other classes have OP mechanics/skills/traits.”

Every elite spec still needs to be nerfed, trying to deflect isn’t any sort of argument to keep ID without an ICD

Sorry but looking at anything in a vacuum is very stupid to do because then everything looks OP, so once they reduce all the power creep then ID should stay as is, especially since 7/9 classes have more than enough answers to it, sorry but if you play any of those 7 classes it’s an L2P issue.

50 percent nerf plz, it was good enough for Surge of the Mist its good enough for PI!

only kinda Kappa

apharma.3741:

You could also take a leaf out of revs books and make headshot a longer daze but with kitten CD….

Either way this thread will be a salt mine, let me grab my popcorn.

Thief weapons skills don’t have cooldowns, so how would you even accomplish that lol

Mal.1670:

apharma.3741:

You could also take a leaf out of revs books and make headshot a longer daze but with kitten CD….

Either way this thread will be a salt mine, let me grab my popcorn.

Thief weapons skills don’t have cooldowns, so how would you even accomplish that lol

The way they did for stealth attacks; ANet doesn’t care.

2s ICD would probably make the trait plenty usable and hit spammers while giving stab-less/limited-stab professions like necro a little bit of relief.