Guild Wars 2

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Yasi.9065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Main vs Alt

Primary difference: caliber of teammates grouped with due to MMR of the account

I only just started the ranked climb on my alt this passed Saturday morning. Made sure I had it tracked with www.gw2pvp.de

Red = loss (includes forfeits)
Green = win (includes byes)
Ranked games are highlighted in yellow

This only gets interesting when you get to the same division and tier as your main account is atm, before that? It just shows the system works.

Well, considering I made more progress on my alt (mid sapphire) in just 2 days (like 10ish hours?) of play, vs 2 weeks-ish of play on my main…its much faster. I wasn’t tracking my account on the pvp tracker until recently, wish I’d known earlier. Right now, my alt is just 12 pips away from where my main sits, which broke into Ruby on the 12th.

Yasi has a valid point about only once you reach Ruby will it get really interesting. That being said, logically, knowing how the algorithm works, once you hit Ruby with that W/L ratio (instead of your main W/L ratio) you should avoid a lot of the effect of being too close to the bottom of the barrel when teams are made. If you are of that level or higher it will likely show by you progressing instead of stalling because the teammate you “deserve” will be of better quality on your alt account than on you main. In other words, 80% of what decide the outcome of any match all things being equal should be of better quality.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Yasi.9065:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Main vs Alt

Primary difference: caliber of teammates grouped with due to MMR of the account

I only just started the ranked climb on my alt this passed Saturday morning. Made sure I had it tracked with www.gw2pvp.de

Red = loss (includes forfeits)
Green = win (includes byes)
Ranked games are highlighted in yellow

This only gets interesting when you get to the same division and tier as your main account is atm, before that? It just shows the system works.

Well, considering I made more progress on my alt (mid sapphire) in just 2 days (like 10ish hours?) of play, vs 2 weeks-ish of play on my main…its much faster. I wasn’t tracking my account on the pvp tracker until recently, wish I’d known earlier. Right now, my alt is just 12 pips away from where my main sits, which broke into Ruby on the 12th.

Yasi has a valid point about only once you reach Ruby will it get really interesting. That being said, logically, knowing how the algorithm works, once you hit Ruby with that W/L ratio (instead of your main W/L ratio) you should avoid a lot of the effect of being too close to the bottom of the barrel when teams are made. If you are of that level or higher it will likely show by you progressing instead of stalling because the teammate you “deserve” will be of better quality on your alt account than on you main. In other words, 80% of what decide the outcome of any match all things being equal should be of better quality.

I wasn’t necessarily saying he didn’t have a point. I was just pointing out the drastic difference I was seeing, even between the amber/emerald/sapphire climb that I previously experienced via my main. 10hrs-ish in 2 days vs I have no clue how many hours over the course of two weeks play.

I plan on continuing to track progress. So we’ll see how it goes.

“I know I am the constant but my teammates are still bad.’’

That isn’t logic, thats excuses. Sometimes you get bad teammates, sometimes you get good teammates. So consider those two cases a wash. In the games where its pretty even for teammate skill, YOU make the difference! It really isnt that hard to comprehend.

If you continue to blame the system for all your failures and yourself for all your success you will never improve. Its really that simple.

displacedTitan.6897:

“I know I am the constant but my teammates are still bad.’’

That isn’t logic, thats excuses. Sometimes you get bad teammates, sometimes you get good teammates. So consider those two cases a wash. In the games where its pretty even for teammate skill, YOU make the difference! It really isnt that hard to comprehend.

If you continue to blame the system for all your failures and yourself for all your success you will never improve. Its really that simple.

I’m not explicitly blaming my teammates and only my teammates. There is more to it than just “they aren’t skilled enough.” There is team composition. There is communication. There is synergy. Granted the matchmaking can’t look at all of it, but some of the people…I’m sorry, but you can’t carry it. I’ve seen enough games where pro players like Chaith or Helseth couldn’t carry their pugs and they are absolutely miles ahead of me in terms of skill. Regardless of what anyone claims, you cannot carry every time.

displacedTitan.6897:

“I know I am the constant but my teammates are still bad.’’

That isn’t logic, thats excuses. Sometimes you get bad teammates, sometimes you get good teammates. So consider those two cases a wash. In the games where its pretty even for teammate skill, YOU make the difference! It really isnt that hard to comprehend.

If you continue to blame the system for all your failures and yourself for all your success you will never improve. Its really that simple.

Do you ever use arguments when you discuss or are empty ideologies all you got?

I’d like you to take an argument others have used (as opposed to one you have mutilated and reconstructed) that you disagree with and tear it apart with LOGIC not baseless mantras like “everything is an excuse”. Mantras are not arguments (and that particular mantra makes as much sense as Marc Rubio saying “we are not a nation of have and have not but a nation of have and soon to have”).

You say that "I know I am the constant but my teammates are still bad’’ is not logic, and you are right it is merely a statement. But the problem is this was not the arguments people have repeatedly given and that are not mere statements nor excuses. When you deform what people say and actually argue about to thereafter “demonstrate” they are wrong or ridiculous you merely construct what we call a straw man. Now what is your excuse to resort to such lame tactics?

ok to prove what i’m saying, i got 10 matches with my boyfiend (which is totally unexpirienced in pvp) and got 10 win streak. I defeated him in 1vs1 with all classes and against all classes almost. That’s what i mean when I’m saying that isn’t true when someone states that average player can’t get easly to averege. I will say bad player can sometimes get easly in diamond with the current system

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

displacedTitan.6897:

“I know I am the constant but my teammates are still bad.’’

That isn’t logic, thats excuses. Sometimes you get bad teammates, sometimes you get good teammates. So consider those two cases a wash. In the games where its pretty even for teammate skill, YOU make the difference! It really isnt that hard to comprehend.

If you continue to blame the system for all your failures and yourself for all your success you will never improve. Its really that simple.

Do you ever use arguments when you discuss or are empty ideologies all you got?

I’d like you to take an argument others have used (as opposed to one you have mutilated and reconstructed) that you disagree with and tear it apart with LOGIC not baseless mantras like “everything is an excuse”. Mantras are not arguments (and that particular mantra makes as much sense as Marc Rubio saying “we are not a nation of have and have not but a nation of have and soon to have”).

You say that "I know I am the constant but my teammates are still bad’’ is not logic, and you are right it is merely a statement. But the problem is this was not the arguments people have repeatedly given and that are not mere statements nor excuses. When you deform what people say and actually argue about to thereafter “demonstrate” they are wrong or ridiculous you merely construct what we call a straw man. Now what is your excuse to resort to such lame tactics?

I think you are shifting from one topic to another in this thread.

I am responding to part of it only, the part my first quoted sentence sums up. There are people in this thread and in other threads who blame the system and their teammates for their losses instead of looking at themselves. The whole notion of MMR hell or of certain accounts getting lucky is a manifestation of this sentiment. I would go back and quote all of the people directly but you can read a few of thoses responses further up on this page of the thread. There is always a caveat to why they lose, it was the team, the MM algo, the composition, etc. My “argument” is that over many games all of those tend to cancel out, leaving only oneself as the constant to either admonish or commend.

If you are talking about the suggestions in this thread regarding decoupling of Division from Reward and of taking the safety gates off of Emerald and Sapphire then, sure, I agree.

In response to calling what I am doing strawmanning, maybe, but if so you are just as guilty as I am. You write these long paragraphs and empty platitudes but they always circle back to “my team is bad, I am not, this is unfair for (reasons)”. So many of the responses in this thread center around, “one person cant carry, therefore MMR cannot be used in this game.” To which I respond with examples of other games using MMR, your criticism of “no division gating” in those games is nearly useless. That changes nothing about the core concept of individual MMR correlating to team wins and losses only. The fact that those other games have millions of players in the competitive landscape and they continue to use this system SHOULD tell you that it works. GW2 isnt a special snowflake, MMR like that works here, people just cant accept negative feedback in a carebear game.

I think there are way too many complaints about everything, it sounds like " if i’m losing, then there has to be some issue with xx ". You gotta consider games upon big number, not about having 1 crap player on 1 single game.

Ruby is the hardest league for sure, but alternatively, you can imagine player’s skills isn’t the same inside the division itself : i.e tier 1 ruby will be less good than tier 6. Matchs are way more closes now than in season1, i think the real issue is simple one thing : Legacy of foefire

People will say i’m annoying always saying this, but really if we take a close look :
- this map gets most votes usually
- this map is almost entirely about builds
- this map can be decided by first fight : most times my team wiped mid in 4 seconds, it ended in 500-10. Note, this isn’t the case when your team is able to survive a bit
- lord rushs : biggest frustration i’ve ever experienced in pvp, i won’t talk about this

From my experience, this is the only map where i get one sided and non fun matchs

displacedTitan.6897:

GW2 isnt a special snowflake, MMR like that works here, people just cant accept negative feedback in a carebear game.

Won’t quote everything you said. That’s basically the point, it doesn’t. Since you don’t know how it works in any another game you named. Any further discussion with you is kinda meaningless, you are getting explained, all you can say is “nope” “i m right”. Okay. The point is i can prove that it works not like in any other game and you don’t.

Problem that, a lot of people are hypocrites, people who soloQed last season and was on high mmr has fought for every pip in amber roflmao, and qqed that they can’t carry bads, guess what ? Now they shouldn’t, everyone else should do it thou.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

displacedTitan.6897:

“I know I am the constant but my teammates are still bad.’’

That isn’t logic, thats excuses. Sometimes you get bad teammates, sometimes you get good teammates. So consider those two cases a wash. In the games where its pretty even for teammate skill, YOU make the difference! It really isnt that hard to comprehend.

If you continue to blame the system for all your failures and yourself for all your success you will never improve. Its really that simple.

I’m not explicitly blaming my teammates and only my teammates. There is more to it than just “they aren’t skilled enough.” There is team composition. There is communication. There is synergy. Granted the matchmaking can’t look at all of it, but some of the people…I’m sorry, but you can’t carry it. I’ve seen enough games where pro players like Chaith or Helseth couldn’t carry their pugs and they are absolutely miles ahead of me in terms of skill. Regardless of what anyone claims, you cannot carry every time.

You people keep getting caught up saying “you cant carry every game” well no duh, you cant carry EVERY game but if you are actually good you should be able to carry MOST games over a long period of time, you might get some lose streaks every now and then, but pretty much anything past 5 losses in a row is most likely a personal skill problem.
Defaulting back to the “how am i supposed to carry this team of 5 quadriplegic warriors” isnt going to improve your games, your GOING to lose games, but if your actually good and play to win EVERY game, you will eventually carry enough games to progress, otherwise, your skill could be in question
People citing 10+lose streaks are either having an UNGODLY amount of bad luck ( i doubt it), OR they really just arnt as good as they claim to be

displacedTitan.6897:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

displacedTitan.6897:

“I know I am the constant but my teammates are still bad.’’

That isn’t logic, thats excuses. Sometimes you get bad teammates, sometimes you get good teammates. So consider those two cases a wash. In the games where its pretty even for teammate skill, YOU make the difference! It really isnt that hard to comprehend.

If you continue to blame the system for all your failures and yourself for all your success you will never improve. Its really that simple.

Do you ever use arguments when you discuss or are empty ideologies all you got?

I’d like you to take an argument others have used (as opposed to one you have mutilated and reconstructed) that you disagree with and tear it apart with LOGIC not baseless mantras like “everything is an excuse”. Mantras are not arguments (and that particular mantra makes as much sense as Marc Rubio saying “we are not a nation of have and have not but a nation of have and soon to have”).

You say that "I know I am the constant but my teammates are still bad’’ is not logic, and you are right it is merely a statement. But the problem is this was not the arguments people have repeatedly given and that are not mere statements nor excuses. When you deform what people say and actually argue about to thereafter “demonstrate” they are wrong or ridiculous you merely construct what we call a straw man. Now what is your excuse to resort to such lame tactics?

I think you are shifting from one topic to another in this thread.

I am responding to part of it only, the part my first quoted sentence sums up. There are people in this thread and in other threads who blame the system and their teammates for their losses instead of looking at themselves. The whole notion of MMR hell or of certain accounts getting lucky is a manifestation of this sentiment. I would go back and quote all of the people directly but you can read a few of thoses responses further up on this page of the thread. There is always a caveat to why they lose, it was the team, the MM algo, the composition, etc. My “argument” is that over many games all of those tend to cancel out, leaving only oneself as the constant to either admonish or commend.

If you are talking about the suggestions in this thread regarding decoupling of Division from Reward and of taking the safety gates off of Emerald and Sapphire then, sure, I agree.

In response to calling what I am doing strawmanning, maybe, but if so you are just as guilty as I am. You write these long paragraphs and empty platitudes but they always circle back to “my team is bad, I am not, this is unfair for (reasons)”. So many of the responses in this thread center around, “one person cant carry, therefore MMR cannot be used in this game.” To which I respond with examples of other games using MMR, your criticism of “no division gating” in those games is nearly useless. That changes nothing about the core concept of individual MMR correlating to team wins and losses only. The fact that those other games have millions of players in the competitive landscape and they continue to use this system SHOULD tell you that it works. GW2 isnt a special snowflake, MMR like that works here, people just cant accept negative feedback in a carebear game.

I’ll speak for myself and sum up, again, what I see as a problem and what that means for me.

When I say I see an issue with the system I do not say this based on a few games only. I clearly see a trend over a lot of games. Beside, I do not remember anybody ever complaining this much about the teammates they were given as the reason they would get stuck before this season. The complains were more about how ppl would cheese unfair match themselves by pairing with strong lower ranking players to dupe the MM.

Of course all players carry their own responsibility in all the games they play. All of them. And not all games they play are won or lost because of them or despite them. However, the team you are given is definitely. in my experience so far, an often true enough reason that largely (not entirely but largely) explain a lot of losses I had in matches we should not have loss at all.

It is remarkable for me, as well as many others apparently, how “rich” in diversity and experience in pvp the teammates you can get even in a division that logically should be above average (ruby). You would expect the bottom of the ruby barrel to still know the basics of the pvp but it clearly is not true at all and sometimes mindblowingly so.

How is it that we still have players at that point in the season that will go straight for beast at start (despite being a support some times), never try to stomp or rez anything, never care about looking at the map, repeatedly go for an obvious unfair fight on a cap his team doesn’t control, do not drop his supply for door breakers but go straight mid to get more, will want to win by defense on stronghold when his team has 100 pts less than his opponent etc. They are supposed to be of my level? That is downright insulting and plain wrong no matter what you think or say.

But, knowing how the “reward ladder track” work and how the algorithm make teams, it is not surprising either nor an excuse that some will be more victims than others. It make sense and is to be expected. These players that will get the short stick will have to play more often than others with really inexperienced people and loose despite them trying very hard to carry. This will lead them to slowly be reevaluated toward the bottom of the barrel and see their probabilities of being paired with these players increased and so on and so forth.

to avoid that effect 2 things should be done:

1) Remove all pip protections.
2) Formulate teams randomly within a given pip range to avoid MMR polarization instead of MMR testing.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/A-serious-examination-of-S2-MMR-Math-Inside/first#post6052827

Here basically our leagues in nutshell. He is better in English then i am, maybe u ll get it, maybe not. Again, i don’t whine that i m stuck or on huge winning or loosing streak. But the thing is, i care a bit for GW to see it’s flaws, instead of saying just “git gud” or what ever.

Kayberz.5346:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

displacedTitan.6897:

“I know I am the constant but my teammates are still bad.’’

That isn’t logic, thats excuses. Sometimes you get bad teammates, sometimes you get good teammates. So consider those two cases a wash. In the games where its pretty even for teammate skill, YOU make the difference! It really isnt that hard to comprehend.

If you continue to blame the system for all your failures and yourself for all your success you will never improve. Its really that simple.

I’m not explicitly blaming my teammates and only my teammates. There is more to it than just “they aren’t skilled enough.” There is team composition. There is communication. There is synergy. Granted the matchmaking can’t look at all of it, but some of the people…I’m sorry, but you can’t carry it. I’ve seen enough games where pro players like Chaith or Helseth couldn’t carry their pugs and they are absolutely miles ahead of me in terms of skill. Regardless of what anyone claims, you cannot carry every time.

You people keep getting caught up saying “you cant carry every game” well no duh, you cant carry EVERY game but if you are actually good you should be able to carry MOST games over a long period of time, you might get some lose streaks every now and then, but pretty much anything past 5 losses in a row is most likely a personal skill problem.
Defaulting back to the “how am i supposed to carry this team of 5 quadriplegic warriors” isnt going to improve your games, your GOING to lose games, but if your actually good and play to win EVERY game, you will eventually carry enough games to progress, otherwise, your skill could be in question
People citing 10+lose streaks are either having an UNGODLY amount of bad luck ( i doubt it), OR they really just arnt as good as they claim to be

I cite it because a lot of people are claiming you can. Which, I’d love to see them do. I’m well aware that I am not uber great, and I keep saying as such. However, I find it questionable that I keep getting paired with people that don’t rotate, don’t talk, can’t stand the thought that far might be an option, and think running 1 by 1 into the mass of red at mid is a good idea.

When I keep getting these kinds of players over and over again, they just drag me down with them. There are have been several games this season where I have been on a team that won, then in the very next round it get 2 new pugs, and 2 from the previous losing team, a team we beat by more than a couple of points at times. And I try not to judge too harshly, cause we’re all learning, but when I see them just do the same kitten and we end up getting stomped, it’s super frustrating.

I fully expect to lose games, that’s fine. I can fully appreciate that ruby is probably where I belong, skill wise. I’m aware I’m not perfect, that I don’t always make the right call, or may not rotate optimally. I will be the first person to tell you, quite clearly that yup, I’m still learning.

Helly.2597:

What I don’t get is if all these players are stuck in Ruby hell or whatever they call it and have only lost due to bad teammates why aren’t they being matched on the same teams? Eventually all you “good” Ruby players who are stuck will get out due to being on the same team as the other “good” Ruby players.

People have been saying this since the system was announced and its not happening. All divisions have good players running through them most of the time.

Ragion.2831:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that. Divisions are aligning with skill level much better than season 1. The product of this change is that the bulk of players who hover around the middle of the mmr curve should stay in sapphire and ruby. Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

Should average players be able to climb out of the middle divisions by grinding? This removes prestige and can make matchmaking worse within a division, but always allows a sense of progression.

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing, but rewards and progression stop at some point through the season.

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

This comment irritates me to the core.

If the team composition is not ideal for what we are up against, you expect us to class swap? change to something we may not be able to play well?

Change characters before the match begins to suite your current team. If your bad with your other characters, practice with them and get better. Or change your build, if you don’t want to do either of these then you’ll continue to have a hard time.

this whole “ZOMG I am stuck” is really getting on my nerves, as long as your win/loss ratio is more or less respectable, and you’re not really moving up, then maybe you’ve found your spot, I’ll just copy paste what i typed in another thread:

I don’t understand why people are making a fuss about being stuck in a certain division- I moved on to Smite and am stuck in bronze 1(aka trash) and i couldn’t care less. Eventhough I sometimes convince myself that I’m better than your average bronzie :p . Unless you’re on one of those 16 game losing streaks or whatnot.
What I’m getting at is maybe that’s where you belong? This ain’t directed to the guy above me just in general.
I know it sucks to feel that you can play 100 games and have 0 progression, but that’s how it is, unless you improve or 4 man q

MAN.9046:

this whole “ZOMG I am stuck” is really getting on my nerves, as long as your win/loss ratio is more or less respectable, and you’re not really moving up, then maybe you’ve found your spot, I’ll just copy paste what i typed in another thread:

I don’t understand why people are making a fuss about being stuck in a certain division- I moved on to Smite and am stuck in bronze 1(aka trash) and i couldn’t care less. Eventhough I sometimes convince myself that I’m better than your average bronzie :p . Unless you’re on one of those 16 game losing streaks or whatnot.
What I’m getting at is maybe that’s where you belong? This ain’t directed to the guy above me just in general.
I know it sucks to feel that you can play 100 games and have 0 progression, but that’s how it is, unless you improve or 4 man q

Pro tip

When you want to understand what others are getting at, reading what they say helps a lot.

After reading your post it’s painfully obvious you simply do not care or do not want to since I see no trace whatsoever of you addressing any of the legitimate rebutal that were given to ppl like you since the season started.

People replying the way you do is what I don’t understand and truly gets on my nerve.

MAN.9046:

I know it sucks to feel that you can play 100 games and have 0 progression, but that’s how it is, unless you improve or 4 man q

Its a couple of things: the pip system, watching yourself continually get close to the next tier or division then having a losing streak; and the reward the necessity to progress through divisions to gain the rewards.

Kayberz.5346:

People citing 10+lose streaks are either having an UNGODLY amount of bad luck ( i doubt it), OR they really just arnt as good as they claim to be

I had a 15 game losing streak last week. I just kept Q’ing to see how long it would last. The system is broken in that it creates very high winning streaks and losing streaks. Most of it is based on how you performed in Amber. As a person already pointed out, he’s having no trouble on an alt account. This system is basically a, “once you’re screwed, you’re screwed”. That matchmaking will consider you a “bottom 5” player and place you with other “bottom 5” players to fight against those deemed “top 5 players”. So if you made it into the category of “Top 5 player” in Amber you’ll have a much easy time all the way up if you keep playing consistently.

Personally I got through ruby much easier than through Sapphire. As a Stronghold only player, I was having a hard time making communication work on Sapphire. People would just not even type on team chat, very frustrating. But once I hit Ruby things got much better.

Weirdly enough now on Diamond things got a little bit worse… Maybe just my luck.

DeWolfe.2174:

Kayberz.5346:

People citing 10+lose streaks are either having an UNGODLY amount of bad luck ( i doubt it), OR they really just arnt as good as they claim to be

I had a 15 game losing streak last week. I just kept Q’ing to see how long it would last. The system is broken in that it creates very high winning streaks and losing streaks. Most of it is based on how you performed in Amber. As a person already pointed out, he’s having no trouble on an alt account. This system is basically a, “once you’re screwed, you’re screwed”. That matchmaking will consider you a “bottom 5” player and place you with other “bottom 5” players to fight against those deemed “top 5 players”. So if you made it into the category of “Top 5 player” in Amber you’ll have a much easy time all the way up if you keep playing consistently.

agree this is it entirely – stuck forever!!

This MM is just boring as it generate way to many games that one team just roll over the other team,but dev dont get it if there ladder is boring they lose players to another games….

Kayberz.5346:

DeWolfe.2174:

Kayberz.5346:

People citing 10+lose streaks are either having an UNGODLY amount of bad luck ( i doubt it), OR they really just arnt as good as they claim to be

I had a 15 game losing streak last week. I just kept Q’ing to see how long it would last. The system is broken in that it creates very high winning streaks and losing streaks. Most of it is based on how you performed in Amber. As a person already pointed out, he’s having no trouble on an alt account. This system is basically a, “once you’re screwed, you’re screwed”. That matchmaking will consider you a “bottom 5” player and place you with other “bottom 5” players to fight against those deemed “top 5 players”. So if you made it into the category of “Top 5 player” in Amber you’ll have a much easy time all the way up if you keep playing consistently.

That is completely bullkitten, your entire league matchmaking is NOT determined by how you did in amber, thats just one of many BS “boogie man” excuses bad players are coming up with to explain why they lose all the time

Nope, why don’t you go and reread the Feb 18th description of how match making would work this season. You are paired with players within your Pip range and skill level. You are matched against players within your Pip range only, disregarding skill level. Thus, if you were simply playing around in Amber and not caring about your MMR, good luck climbing out of MMR Hell later. You’ll consistently be matched with similar MMR levels. It’s a system of have’s and have not’s to allow fast progress of the “Gud” players. Then of course we have these daily’s that we have to do and that is keeping our MMR from decaying/resetting.

Like many of you, I’ve the feeling Ruby is too much “ok, the real game starts now”.

I think emerald and sapphire need more selection.

People reach Ruby too easily because they can’t lose tiers so it’s only a matter of grinding games and be rdy for the lucky streak.

People should not focus on statistic or luck but to improve their game play.

This should be the Essence of a competitive progression.

I know it can be brutal to hear, but emerald and sapphire need more value.

Sapphire could have savepoints after 2 tiers instead of 1, this means you can lose until 10 pips between 2 tiers. Basically a “soft” ruby

But at the same time matchmaking needs improvements and less blow out.

The issue seems to be that absolute bads can farm their way into ruby by grinding which leaves the ‘skill’ level in ruby incredibly skewed. The later in the season we go, the worse it gets, and its at Hot Join level garbage in there.

Played a few this evening and decided to call it a night the second time I was teamed up with someone running a turret engie build.

This match making is an absolute train wreck. Seed the divisions based on mmr, and let it be about the PvP – ya know, players having closer matches with others at their skill level. Match making by division would work if:
1) More players were in the player pool to spreadout in the divisions. GW2 pvp population doesn’t really fully spread out due to short season length and most importantly the total pvp population is incredibly small.
2) The first 3 divisions didn’t just act as a conveyor belt dumping garbage in to ruby.

I am in emerald division and I feel like I keep getting matched up to teams with division IV or V ranked players. And out of my last 10 games, I only won 1 match. So, that’s 9 losses. That’s just out of last 10 games. That’s not counting all the losses before last 10 games.

If I have to get in matches with IV and V players, can’t they at least land in my party?

There are no divisions. There is only the love and peace between the atoms….

….

Wait, what?

in the last league manages to be diamond alone, but in this league with the change in rubi I have 20 losses and 2 wins, no matter if I am the best team just lost, if it were actually balanced would understand at most 40% of victories , but that is ridiculous, the only thing that interests me is the legendary wings, but after this league I seem impossible to do it alone, and should give the opportunity for the armor, back piece, people who like to play alone, I was not interested in forming a group, and should have the opportunity to get the legendary on my own, but it is not, I know how to play pvp, as I am dragon like many, but I force to go to a guild, create a group or never have my legendary

Apparently the dictatorship is popular not only in politics but also in games now Player skill no longer determines his MMP but the game tells player what his skill and MMP, regardless of the actual values ^^ well is that good games will came soon . though it does not return spent money (

Emerald and Sapphire players shouldn’t reach RubY so easily.

I mean, if you continue to do many Amber/Emerald/Sapphire mistakes (super general basic mistakes like people who cap the node in 2/3, beast in 2/3 at start, people who go 4vs1 etc.) you need to improve your gameplay or understand a better gameplay.

Ideally Ruby should be the mid tier where people start to play decently.

Right now you continue to see in Ruby an amber gameplay with people who do A LOT OF super basic mistakes. Ruby should exprime a different gameplay from emeral and sapphire. And Superior leagues like diamond and legendary get too many people who don’t really belong to that division.

This is not acceptable in a good progression system.

So the good idea shoud be you have a progression improving your gameplay.

I agree Sapphire and Emerald need to be more selective.

The game is a roulette you get win/loss strikes. Good side is I only get the good maps to play Anyway you can get to ruby easy, just farm win strikes. If you make it trough ruby just soloqueue!! means you are really good. I am not.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that. Divisions are aligning with skill level much better than season 1. The product of this change is that the bulk of players who hover around the middle of the mmr curve should stay in sapphire and ruby. Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

Should average players be able to climb out of the middle divisions by grinding? This removes prestige and can make matchmaking worse within a division, but always allows a sense of progression.

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing, but rewards and progression stop at some point through the season.

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

Sir, the PvP system needs to be changed. The concept of soloQ has to be eliminated and Q can only be done in a premade set of 5 or at least 3 players. This will eliminate players getting paired with randoms where none have a clue of what the other wants and would to a good extent save good players from have consecutive win and loss cycles.

PvP is a team game and should be like that only. SoloQ and lucky win streaks makes no sense, takes the fun out of the game and makes the concept of team play redundant.

Lastly the matchmaking as seen in this screenshot when I did soloQ says it all. I am Nefarmius in that screenshot.

Jack Daniels.5270:

The game is a roulette you get win/loss strikes. Good side is I only get the good maps to play Anyway you can get to ruby easy, just farm win strikes. If you make it trough ruby just soloqueue!! means you are really good. I am not.

no you cant get to ruby easily! not good if u cant farm win strikes been stuck for over 1 week on loss streak in MMR Hell so don’t post inaccurate information its not true! no chance of progression now despite me improving as best I can am stuck will keep trying like toss of coin! season over

Eagelseye.6312:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that. Divisions are aligning with skill level much better than season 1. The product of this change is that the bulk of players who hover around the middle of the mmr curve should stay in sapphire and ruby. Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

Should average players be able to climb out of the middle divisions by grinding? This removes prestige and can make matchmaking worse within a division, but always allows a sense of progression.

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing, but rewards and progression stop at some point through the season.

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

Sir, the PvP system needs to be changed. The concept of soloQ has to be eliminated and Q can only be done in a premade set of 5 or at least 3 players. This will eliminate players getting paired with randoms where none have a clue of what the other wants and would to a good extent save good players from have consecutive win and loss cycles.

PvP is a team game and should be like that only. SoloQ and lucky win streaks makes no sense, takes the fun out of the game and makes the concept of team play redundant.

Oh lawd, I hope this is a satire post, but considering the forum, I doubt it, so I’ll respond in kind.
Answer 1, if serious post:

“You can E-Spurts, or you can geeeeeeeet oooouuuut!”

For real though, no thanks. Take your elitism elsewhere. Some people don’t want to HAVE to get a team, voice, and premade just to play ranked and have fun/get rewards. That’s not an answer to the issues we’re currently facing.

Answer 2, if satire post:
PvP is only about being competitive, I agree. That’s why we need to do away with hotjoin and unranked, because why have those? I mean, PvP is only about being as competitive as possible. Take out reward tracks, we don’t need those for competitive PvP. Also, take out the bank and TP as those aren’t necessary.

Serious answer though, some cool features to help find teams for ranked PvP, if that’s the true direction the devs are wanting to take, is to add in game voice chat as well as a team finder in game so you can find teams that need you to finish their specific comp they’re going for. Granted, I think that’d just be exacerbating the “E-Spurts or gerrrt errrt!” mentality that PvP has garnered.

I just lost to exactly the same team comp twice in a row. Both matches were walkovers. One player on the other team made the comment, “I have to admit, I hate winning this way.”

Three of the other team are partied but the system grouped them with the same two players again.

Perhaps the code has been changed to prevent a full PuG from encountering a full premade. Does it fix syncing? Is there any safeguard to prevent repeating matches?

There is nothing fair, fun or competitive about going into a match knowing that you will be ground into the pavement.

Screencapped Matches:
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s464/BrandedAlphaWolf/gw174_zps23z6yduh.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s464/BrandedAlphaWolf/gw178_zpsgzxt9pbn.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s464/BrandedAlphaWolf/gw175_zpswwxfeage.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s464/BrandedAlphaWolf/gw184_zpsgldxikwu.jpg
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s464/BrandedAlphaWolf/gw186_zpsoip4uedd.jpg

Not sure why so many folks are complaining about every other match being a blow-out. About 70% of my games were within the 150-200pt range or less. Which to me seems almost no different than a few years ago anyway. There’s always going to be a middle-ground in skill-level in competitive gameplay. Here, that is Ruby. In League that is Platinum, and there are many other games with that similarity across several genre.

If you’re playing a DPS/Damage based character (Which let’s be honest the majority of us are) you should be consistently aiming to do a few things:
1: Dealing around 400k+ Condition Damage per game
or
1: Dealing around 600k+ Raw Damage per game
2: Minimum kills should likely be 8+ on either set (My record is 27 currently)
http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/s464/BrandedAlphaWolf/Necro%20Record_zpslrovwi87.jpg
3: If you are not meeting those thresholds consistently you need to contribute to the team in other ways (Heal People/Stomp/Back-cap points)

If you’re not able to do at least 1 of these things even in a difficult game, you’re just as much at fault as your teammates are for the loss. Not Georgette the bad elementalist, not that Revenants grandmother, and not the system. Take responsibility for your gameplay, learn multiple classes or at least know multiple builds for your class that you can swap on the fly. 2 Engineers + Elemental on the enemy team? = Good luck getting great condition damage out this game if they’re remotely competent.

The system was changed. You’re “last season” complaints aren’t very useful when the game had a lot of players carried into diamond that couldn’t hold their own, and then truly some of the better folks trapped in the real Ruby-heck that due to 50% win/loss in Season1 when it paired you against equal skilled players residing in any tier.

I lost my record kills game (Yes it is an unranked – irrelevant to this point). That goes to show you no matter how hard someone is grinding your face into the dirt you can still win. But you won’t win wasting 5-seconds every time you respawn or are running somewhere to yell at your teammates or complain. You’re not focused on the match, and you’re not pro-actively accomplishing much of anything at that point (Not counting strategic things like “Hey let’s hold these two points”). We all know what I mean, especially if you’re in “ruby”-hell as you note. You’re going to have bad teams, and if not you’re certainly gonna have a good player that has a bad game; and you need to carry them or pick them up so they play until the end. Not type useless things in the spawn (Rubies are becoming notorious for this ragequit nonsense “I can’t win, it’s _____’s fault”)

There are minor faults in every competitive system. But if you can’t roll off-meta builds to counter a teams composition and still be successful, then you probably belong where you are.

Yeah the system needs work. Not being able to make it to legend isn’t it (although mmr hell is real).

I made legend and shouldn’t have. I don’t win consistently, I make awful plays that lose team fights, I run nonviable builds, some people hate me and I get it, I deserve that. Im not the worst player but I am by no means legend rank. Ideally I’d say diamond, but here I am. I made legend in about a month on mesmer, rev, necro and guardian. Wasn’t legend supposed to take the entire season to get to unless you’re really good?

The issue is that the system is incredibly forgiving. Loss streaks and winstreaks are an issue. Loss streaks shouldn’t exist at all cause it’s a pvp ladder… Winstreaks are good in theory but hear me out. These are what made me get to legend. Win 5 in a row, lose 5 in a row and you’re up by 2 and if you win the next one you’re just -1 from the win streak. I get that the best people should be moved up fastest but idk if this is the way. I know legend queues are (or used to be ) horrible since the people at the top are too few so i guess it could be said that they’re moving up too fast. (A solution could also be to make the ladder longer?). I also probably got into MMR heaven out of luck because I was frequently paired with top tier players after playing with good premade teams which just kept my winstreaks rolling.

Now Ima address the people raging in ruby.

MMR hell is real. If you don’t know what mmr hell is a known issue where your personal mmr gets low and you get matched with people with lower mmrs but you don’t face equally low mmr players but rather whomever in your division, which makes no sense. It’s kinda like when your mom forced you into soccer cause you needed exercise but you didn’t want to and you had to play against the athletic kids under the argument “well they’re all 7.” Except this is actually competitive and you should be competing with people of equal caliber. Both division and mmr is stupid to have when you don’t apply it to both sides. You can get out by playing on a team or even just duo queue if you’re both good enough but it’s a kitten solo. I know where you’re coming from.

On the other hand you gotta earn getting to legend. Not everyone is supposed to make it, not if you don’t learn how pvp works or are open to it. I had someone rage at me and tell me i should go to pve because I don’t know what Im doing but that’s literally all he does (I always check my block list before a match). He was mad that I was backcapping and didnt seem to understand the 1 point per node captured but instead was convinced it was who ever had more captured nodes made the points, like in company of heroes. Ive also seen a power necro rush into mid where they all are, and we aren’t, died instantly then kittened and blamed everyone else.

Playing around bad players is something you unfortunately have to learn, which leads to some janky kitten plays but does win matches. You’re also probably gunna have to run a bruiser build so you can either hold or push. For instance, you have one guy always rushing far and dying like an idiot but you’re on foefire so by the time he respawns and gets there the guy 1v1ing him has had time to get to mid, wipe you, and return to far? Head far with him and 2v1 that node then when the enemy team comes to avenge, run away. Is everyone brawling for tranq? Back cap. Everyone died at mid including you? Homes a safe bet. Im sure im not 100% correct with these but you can almost always pull a bad team if you’re good enough. The only time you cant is when someone throws a match on purpose and does nothing. These times you just have to breath it in maybe alt tab out in the time, and pray you don’t get him again. idk if devs approved report for botting this season but try it anyways. I wish there was a surrender option where under certain conditions, you can make a vote to end the game.

But yeah, this system needs work but tbh its a lot better than last season, and party up, get out of mmr hell

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that. Divisions are aligning with skill level much better than season 1. The product of this change is that the bulk of players who hover around the middle of the mmr curve should stay in sapphire and ruby. Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

Should average players be able to climb out of the middle divisions by grinding? This removes prestige and can make matchmaking worse within a division, but always allows a sense of progression.

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing, but rewards and progression stop at some point through the season.

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

Average players should stay in middle divisions. Definitely. Anything else will ruin the whole system. Remove the “cannot lose tiers” for emerald and sapphire so we don’t have that huge pool of ruby people with extremly varyiing skill levels. The way it is now you sabotaged your system.

Incentive to keep playing if you have reached a relatively low tier and cannot climb anymore? Imo just gaining more experience will allow you to eventually climb afterall and for that you have to play. We also still have reward tracks.

The reason people “stuck” in Ruby are sick of ruby is because some of them could win more but get constantly matched with people that should have not progressed further than emerald/sapphire (but artificially did so due to no tier loss).

Remove the divsion/tier locks and you simply move the bottleneck to Amber. That would intensify many of the problems we see now.

You would see sapphire level players trolling back through the ranks on alts. There simply wouldn’t be enough players above Amber to support matches.

In addition, long losing streaks and roflstomps would frustrate new players almost immediately. That would kitten the usefulness of the backpack and other rewards to draw people to come try PvP.

S1 was far better. Hardcore competition simply isn’t going to work. creating an elite doesn’t give that elite “prestige,” just the opposite.

Amber → pip and tier lock
Emerald → tier lock, 5 pips per tier
Sapphire → division lock, 4 tiers
Ruby → no locks, 5 tiers
Diamond → no locks, 6 tiers

No bottleneck in amber, none in emerald, season not long enough for a bottleneck to form on sapphire.

Ithilwen, your posts are getting a bit ridiculous. Of course there would be enough players above sapphire to sustain matches. There have been enough players in pvp long before they added pve rewards to draw in all those mostly useless pve-achievement-grinders…

the problem which ppl fail to understand is anet try to achieve several goals which colide with each other
1. each player can see his actual rank he belongs to
2. each player should try to strive to legend
3. players should be in 50% win rate give or take in pvp

if i am on 50% win rate i should never in average rise in ranks
if i need to try to go to legend i should have a 75% win ratio till legend (unless i need to farm matches). nevertheless is should be more than 50%
if each player should stuck in his rank he will hardly be able to go to legend without pro players carring him to there.

so it seems ppl dont like to see themself as ruby even if some may belongs there and other not.
it seems ppl like to farm points till legend like a title and not like as a proof of mastery

thus the system fail as it must take good players and group them together versus bad players to enabel them to go through the ranks. as if the system put good players with bad players you will have 50% win ratio again with no climbing in ranks.

i think choose between farming and mastery rank.
if each player should stuck in the rank he belongs to . its ok by me but give every rank the posibility to lose points and tiers
if pugs will fight versus group (even if not full) it should be taking into considiration somehow
if its just farming take out the MMR from the equasion and the 50% base win rate

If there are enough players in pvp already why lure more PVE’ers as u call it by adding rewards – the competition and challenge for pvper’s is in the rank badge and title. You should not need anything else ! So if you are right then anet does not need to draw more pver’s into pvp !!

I wills ay again MMRHell does exist – I am in my tight place now in rank I am not pro and don’t want to be any higher than I should be, BUT I should have the chance to see evidence of my improvement as I hopefully progress in pvp -that does not mean I need to carry while teams of low MMR to see this , and that’s where the system fails ! for those who are low rank and not good to start with but improve later in season it does not work !! season is over for me according to the system now – because of mistakes I have made in amber I am now trapped with no escape. I say again I don’t want to be any higher than I deserve on MY skill level (not my team!) but I feel I am below my rank for factors outside my control – Again if the only way to show improvement and progression once in MMRHell is to carry whole team then there is problems and will put the majority of “new blood” off pvp for good!

Players do deserve I believe a chance to redeem very low MMR from times when they were not skilled but which has subsequently changed due to their hard work and effort in watching videos reading up on classes and practicing in hotjoin or unranked as I have done.

Yasi.9065:

Amber -> pip and tier lock
Emerald -> tier lock, 5 pips per tier
Sapphire -> division lock, 4 tiers
Ruby -> no locks, 5 tiers
Diamond -> no locks, 6 tiers

No bottleneck in amber, none in emerald, season not long enough for a bottleneck to form on sapphire.

Ithilwen, your posts are getting a bit ridiculous. Of course there would be enough players above sapphire to sustain matches. There have been enough players in pvp long before they added pve rewards to draw in all those mostly useless pve-achievement-grinders…

If you want to stop the “…useless pve achievement grinders…” from being in YOUR game mode then take out pve rewards and achievements from pvp – its very simple.

I am currently in Ruby division and have a win rate of 80%. The build you are playing aswell as player skill makes a difference.

Also, most of my games are by doing solo queues.

Eagelseye.6312:

Lastly the matchmaking as seen in this screenshot when I did soloQ says it all. I am Nefarmius in that screenshot.

Looks like it’s working fine to me. You guys are on the lower end of Ruby most likely so you pulled the guy from the top of Sapphire. The Amber player is there because his division defaulted to Ruby (his teammates) because he was in a team.

Last tier of Ruby, at lest for me was much more balanced. I think I had only 2 matches where 1 team with with 500 to 100. The rest were very close matches.
But Ruby tier 1 to tier 4 was nightmare…

Skullface.7293:

I am currently in Ruby division and have a win rate of 80%. The build you are playing aswell as player skill makes a difference.

Also, most of my games are by doing solo queues.

same here and of course builds are a factor

I’d love to see some statistics on all of this. % players that have X division, how many % of the players have which wings, and how many people are in which division/tier. Would really help to shed some light on where the real bottlenecks are, where people get stuck, and which division is bloated.

Edit: I’d also watch Evan Lesh PvPing. I’m really curious to see how he’d experience the current system.

Arkvan.3561:

Edit: I’d also watch Evan Lesh PvPing. I’m really curious to see how he’d experience the current system.

With low starting MMR, no less.