Guild Wars 2

Honestly, I respect your opinions, but I play several classes, and I’m sure if you do the same you’ll agree that thief is the least forgiving, squishiest, and least unique class in the game with the least tech at their disposal.

1. What I mean by this is our tech is stealth…but half the other classes get this as well. Thief doesn’t get rage, or clones, or a second life bar, or tons of buff distribution, or kits and turrets, or a pet, or stances (rev). So right of the bat, whats special about us…..isn’t that special

2. All the other classes have means of survival……..not thief. What I mean by this is that Several classes have the invincibility button. The ones that don’t have mechanics that are nearly just as good, like block all incoming attacks, dodge all incoming attacks, or just plain get an extra life bar to eat those extra attacks. Thief has stealth, but plenty of other people have this as well, on top of that, we still take damage in stealth…this combined with thief being nerfed to have the lowest health pool, makes us easily the squishiest class.

3. This squishyness combined with the lowest health pool, along with our main damage being melee range, makes us the least forgiving. I mean when I play my Ele, or my War, if I make a mistake and attack into an invuln target, I can just mist form away, or invuln to wait them out. If I make this mistake on a thief I am instantly dead. I cannot restealth for 4 seconds…and since I have the lowest health pool, that’s more than enough time to kill me. Even if I make it into stealth I can be burst so low that I die plenty of times even once in stealth. The only scenario in which a class should have to continually put themselves in this kind of danger with EVERY engagement is if “Backstab” read: “Strike and opponent from behind, dealing 100% of their max health in damage”. Sounds ridiculous right? Of course….but the way back stab reads now is: Deals 2,300 damage, if you don’t down them in 4 seconds or less, you lose 100% of your max health…the problem with this is that thief is in no way anywhere near the highest burst class. Burn guards, Mes, Ele, they all outburst us….so why do we have to risk so much for our burst when it pales in comparison to others?

Final- Thief has no special mechanic. And in the end, stealth is not a viable excuse for the PvP in this game. What I mean is that ALL the maps with the exception of one are about holding down points, or pushing down lanes. Stealth only provides the opportunity to run away. So yes, we may get to run away…but this means you’ve taken the points, or you’ve pushed us away from your gate. This means thief will NEVER be a viable class in this games PvP EXCEPT in courtyard, where escaping with your life is actually preserving your score.

Now I know that most all of the pro teams run 1 thief in their teams for rotation. But just look at that….the thief is run not for their stealth, not for their damage, not for their team tech….they are run 1 of for their 5 skill on their OFF-HAND. What this means is the only thing we do better than another class is blink around….which is great and all….better than not being good at anything I guess. But in the end, this is Player vs Players, not Track Running simulator. We want to contribute more to our team than just running around, praying we don’t run into any enemies because in an equal skill scenario, thief cant’ 1v1 any other class.

With all of the elite specs shown, it seems thief is just sinking deeper into the hole, and once again, lack any tech. Ele’s charge into super charged, Rangers have a celestial form, Engi has robots, War has Zerker form/fire, Necro has Reaper form, Guard got traps (Bunker even harder), thief got….and extra dodge…..once again, EVERYONE can dodge….so we get 1 more dodge than everyone else, kinda like we get a little more stealth than everyone……

Every other class gets all these unique things about them, and thief is continuously made to be less and less effective in all aspects of PvP AND PvE.

Thief really needs to be redone.

Thief is NOT the weakest class in PvP.

Jasher.6580:

Thief is NOT the weakest class in PvP.

Yes, that title goes to the ranger.

Thief is like top4 in pvp. Stop saying we’re weak because you dislike what Thief’s role is.

I doubt the class that almost every pvp team runs at least 1 of is the worst. Sure, they aren’t op, like D/D ele, but calling them the worst is wrong.

Only 3 references to Shroud and how ‘amazing’ it is? Surely you can be more silly…

Thieves roles are plus 1 fights, decapping and capping points, rezzing in key situations and the best thieves in the game catch people off point. If you watched the last ESL, the announcers talked about how great Magic toker was simply cause hes one of the best 1 vs 1 players off cap points in the game. He catches people running away with low health and he also catches people before the can get to a point so they dont get a free decap/cap.

Im really not sure what your talking about. Every successful team in NA or EU has at least a thief. You dont have to have a engy,necro,warrior, or ranger. I dont understand what you mean because the thief class has shadow step, a insane amount single target burst dmg, the 2nd best mobility in the game, a ton of invisibility, plus a great elite skill.

You might not like the role your in or maybe you dont like the weapon sets your forced into but hey join the club. This is a silly post simply cause having 1-2 thieves on a team is a must at a elite level.

Nope, not the worst.

In your post you already said most pro teams in pvp have them. The reason is they are valuable out of combat for decapping unmanned points and in combat as the best plus 1 for sudden bursts in fights.

I know the old arguments about how it’s unfair they are only good for those plus one fights but that’s not entirely true. Based on skill level real good thieves can still take down warriors and rangers. Thieves already have the best mobility for any class, if you also wanna win every single 1v1 that isn’t really balance.

You don’t even fight all the time in pvp, real good groups win by outrotating an opposing team, that means even if the opposing team has the better composition for teamfights, the one with the better thief wins by decapping.

Like I’ve said before, people won’t agree that the Thief is weak even when it has been nerfed to have only ONE hitpoint and ONE “weapon” (Shortbow) with ONE skill (Infiltrator’s Arrow).

They will still complain about how overpowered and essential it is because the top teams still play with one.

And again, the Ranger would most likely push Thieves out of the meta if they could only send their pet across the map to (de)cap a point.

Nocta.5274:

Thief is like top4 in pvp. Stop saying we’re weak because you dislike what Thief’s role is.

This is pretty accurate. While i don’t particularly like the thief meta as it is, this is generally what i hear from many people. They conclude that thief is weak because it is weak at the things they want to do (1v1, teamfight?).

Quadox.7834:

They conclude that thief is weak because it is weak at the things they want to do (1v1, teamfight?).

I would define it as “weak” because it is very fragile and doesn’t have the damage output as other professions do. So it is weak both defensively and offensively.

Yes, it is very mobile, but it can be mobile and weak simultaneously.

And while speed is a “stregnth,” being fast does not make the Thief “strong.” It simply makes it fast.

yeah, crocodile tears
Stealth – Stun – burst to 0% HP – Stealth – Stomp UNINTERRUPTED whether with melee and ranged
and pretty much all the necessary skills have condi removal and OP disengage abilities
nope, needs nerf

sercommander.6817:

yeah, crocodile tears
Stealth – Stun – burst to 0% HP – Stealth – Stomp UNINTERRUPTED whether with melee and ranged
and pretty much all the necessary skills have condi removal and OP disengage abilities
nope, needs nerf

So…do you mind my asking how much you think a thief can burst for? Let’s say we have the squishiest class currently played, which I think would be a shatter mesmer in terms of flat defensive stat value.

Thief might be boring/pigeonholed/lack of variety/uniqueness, but it’s not weak.

Thief is the strongest class in its role especially now that those whiney little kittens are getting PU nerfed it’s completely unchallenged.

Kageseigi.2150:

Like I’ve said before, people won’t agree that the Thief is weak even when it has been nerfed to have only ONE hitpoint and ONE “weapon” (Shortbow) with ONE skill (Infiltrator’s Arrow).

They will still complain about how overpowered and essential it is because the top teams still play with one.

And again, the Ranger would most likely push Thieves out of the meta if they could only send their pet across the map to (de)cap a point.

Heh, just like people won’t stop complaining how overpowered Mesmer is even if they are nerfed down to the damage/survivability of a single clone.

Some things are irrational. ‘shrug’

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

sercommander.6817:

yeah, crocodile tears
Stealth – Stun – burst to 0% HP – Stealth – Stomp UNINTERRUPTED whether with melee and ranged
and pretty much all the necessary skills have condi removal and OP disengage abilities
nope, needs nerf

So…do you mind my asking how much you think a thief can burst for? Let’s say we have the squishiest class currently played, which I think would be a shatter mesmer in terms of flat defensive stat value.

I did the math, look up “tale of two burst” for the numbers. Off the top of my head if BS crits (and with pack runes you’re at a 80% chance) then you’re looking at about 7k total, 9k with executioner. Would have to go back and check the post but it was about that.

What’s interesting is the full dagger auto which you can follow it up with fair safety because the target is essentially stunned at that point (daze + immob from PS = stun or basi venom) will on average against said squishy target do about 5k follow up damage though that is extremely averaged. If the last 2 strikes don’t crit it will be less but you should also have an air/fire proc added in.

Essentially a thief can burst a lot more than other classes (every 5s) but they burst for less potentially and it’s all weighted on the backstab. Compared to other classes, others can burst harder but there’s a much higher time between the burst/set up required. Special note on the Mesmer follow up damage, their options include mind stab and iZerker with the latter extremely easy to avoid, otherwise it’s kinda poor follow up damage.

apharma.3741:

I did the math, look up “tale of two burst” for the numbers. Off the top of my head if BS crits (and with pack runes you’re at a 80% chance) then you’re looking at about 7k total, 9k with executioner. Would have to go back and check the post but it was about that.

What’s interesting is the full dagger auto which you can follow it up with fair safety because the target is essentially stunned at that point (daze + immob from PS = stun or basi venom) will on average against said squishy target do about 5k follow up damage though that is extremely averaged. If the last 2 strikes don’t crit it will be less but you should also have an air/fire proc added in.

Essentially a thief can burst a lot more than other classes (every 5s) but they burst for less potentially and it’s all weighted on the backstab. Compared to other classes, others can burst harder but there’s a much higher time between the burst/set up required. Special note on the Mesmer follow up damage, their options include mind stab and iZerker with the latter extremely easy to avoid, otherwise it’s kinda poor follow up damage.

Thanks, that post was very informative, and it does roughly match up with my testing done on the light armor golems in HotM. I didn’t know, though, that the light armor golem actually had higher defense than a zerk/marauder light armor class.

Now…my question was somewhat leading in that I believed that most people overestimate the amount of damage they think a thief can do (the word “insane” tends to get thrown around a lot). While ~8k is not a small amount by any stretch of the imagination, it is hardly capable of 100-0ing anyone as many people tend to claim. I just wanted to bring that to light.

Edit: From a bit of testing against the light armor golem, the numbers that I am seeing from backstab range from 4500 to 5000. Since the difference between the armor values of the golem and light armor classes is about 10%, I don’t expect the amount of damage from the backstab to be much more than 5500 at most. This would actually mean that the best damage a thief could hope for with his opening burst is roughly ~7000 with Mug -> Backstab (not including sigil procs of course).

so you think a class that single handedly makes all other zerkers non viable is weak?

Nocta.5274:

Thief is like top4 in pvp. Stop saying we’re weak because you dislike what Thief’s role is.

ozzy.8059:

so you think a class that single handedly makes all other zerkers non viable is weak?

A class that is left with the lowest life total, no escapes, and is forced to play without a single mistake due to this IS weak when compared to all the other classes that have “Oh crap” buttons that either make them invulnerable, or give them a second life bar.

If thief did the highest damage in the game by leaps and bounds, it would be acceptable. But Backstab in full zerkers, completely specced for Backstab, on a full zerker target….so the best scenario possible basically, hits for about 7600-8100:

1. This doesn’t 1 shot anybody, even other thief’s and we are the lowest life total class in the game.

2. I’ve been hit for 12k+ by classes such as Mesmer, while they REMAIN in stealth. This isn’t a shot at mesmers, it’s just an example that a class can remain in stealth and out damage us while providing to risk to themselves. Yet we are forced to come out of stealth, be kept out of stealth by revealed, with the lowest life total in the game, and with no “Oh Crap” invuln button that every other class gets, just to fight normally. Meaning we have to do this EVERY SINGLE fight.

Luclinraider.2317:

2. I’ve been hit for 12k+ by classes such as Mesmer, while they REMAIN in stealth. This isn’t a shot at mesmers, it’s just an example that a class can remain in stealth and out damage us while providing to risk to themselves. Yet we are forced to come out of stealth, be kept out of stealth by revealed, with the lowest life total in the game, and with no “Oh Crap” invuln button that every other class gets, just to fight normally. Meaning we have to do this EVERY SINGLE fight.

I actually question the validity on this one because the game mechanics themselves work to prevent this from happening. Now, I won’t argue that they start their burst from stealth with no way for us to see it coming, but I doubt that they remain in stealth after the damage has been dealt since they need to shatter to achieve that kind of damage.

Lol thief and ele and the only two classes that are seen consistently on every top team. Thief clearly isn’t the worst class in the game.

Another day, another appeal to reason by a Thief main, another series of responses so predictable you could view them from orbit. Let’s play Thief marginalization bingo!

1> “Thief is in a lot of tournament teams. You can’t be pigeonholed AND weak!”
2> “Sounds like an L2P issue! Who cares if every other class is easier and more rewarding?”
3> “OMG THIEF OP! I got killed by one back in 2013, and I’m still mad about it!”

Post your own Thief bingo answers below. Bonus points if the post directly below mine is by an Ele or Mesmer main out of touch with reality!

Amante.8109:

Another day, another appeal to reason by a Thief main, another series of responses so predictable you could view them from orbit. Let’s play Thief marginalization bingo!

1> “Thief is in a lot of tournament teams. You can’t be pigeonholed AND weak!”
2> “Sounds like a L2P problem. Who cares if every other class is easier to play and more rewarding by far?”
3> “OMG Thief OP! I got killed by one back in 2013, and I’m still mad about it.”

Lol l2p, you don’t even have to be mechanically good at thief to sb5 around the map, hitting targets 5 times and decapping points.

Belial.9350:

Lol l2p, you don’t even have to be mechanically good at thief to sb5 around the map, hitting targets 5 times and decapping points.

You appear to play Ele AND Mesmer. Wow, I really hit the jackpot!

In all seriousness, you are right. It does not take a lot of skill to Shortbow around the map and decap points. It also isn’t very fun, nor is being unable to 1v1 anyone remotely competent. But hey, let’s go all 1984 in this kitten: Thief being nothing but a decapper and +1’er for the last three months clearly means that’s all they ever have been, or all they ever should be! Also, we have always been at war with Eurasia and 2 + 2 definitely equals 5.

God’s in his Heaven, and all’s right with the world.

Amante.8109:

Belial.9350:

Lol l2p, you don’t even have to be mechanically good at thief to sb5 around the map, hitting targets 5 times and decapping points.

You appear to play Ele AND Mesmer. Wow, I really hit the jackpot!

Lol so what. Since you went through my post history, you’ll also know that I’m aware of how OP these classes are. Doesn’t change the fact that one can fulfil the role of a thief without actually doing that much.

Belial.9350:

Lol so what. Since you went through my post history, you’ll also know that I’m aware of how OP these classes are. Doesn’t change the fact that one can fulfil the role of a thief without actually doing that much.

Let’s assume—rather charitably—that you are correct. What is your point, exactly?

That Thief being forced into an extremely narrow, tedious role few Thieves actually want to play is somehow okay because… it’s easy to perform? Why is being forced into the easy role of waterboy somehow a good thing?

@Blargh

Yeah the two bursts is accounting for a ~2k mug with about a 5k backstab. Executioner adds a lot of damage onto it all but you lose the utility of improv. I think when people complain about being insta killed by thieves it’s more of a case of the thief jumping them when they’re at around the 60-70% health mark and with a follow up auto.

The auto does really good damage and for less experienced players it can be hard to get out of a dazed and immob or stunned with basi venom situation. This leads to them eating an extra 4-6k realistically depending on builds etc. I can certainly see an executioner thief downing someone if they jump them at 60% as mug will usually take them down to 50% or less for the high damage mods to come through.

Thief is extremely good at its role, mesmer could give it a run for its money (doubtful when PU nerf hits) but in general the two working together bring out the best in each class imo.

Ok, I’m yet another thief main, and I think you are complaining about two different issues:
1) Playstyle
It’s true, thieves, more than ever, only have one viable build, revolving around one mechanic: stealth. I, and many more of us, miss the days where SD was viable. Hopefully, Anet will have this issue in mind when balancing the Daredevil: we need our evasive playstyle back!

2) Role
That’s where I don’t agree. Thief is the only profession in the game that has an entirely different playstyle in conquest. Imagine it has more defense, or more damage on backstab: that would be plain OP. Mesmer was hardly viable for years because it could not run away from its hard counter. The only solution I would see would be to give thief a weapon dealing no damage, with no mobility, but with a lot of defense to it, so that they would be forced to drop the SB, but that’s not the path Anet has taken.
On the thief subforum, some “thief mains” suggested to nerf the mobility in favor of a better 1v1 capacity. Please no! I play every profession, like most half competitive players, so I don’t want to play the same way on all my characters.

I think the core of the problem is the fact that there’s only 2 working builds for thief and both rely on SB 5 to get around. I don’t think +1 is a role. Or decapping empty points. That would make you more like a ranger pet than anything else. Sadly though, it’s all you can do as an average thief.

There are professions that are weaker than others (ranger and thief imo). While ranger often feels a little clunky and lackluster, thief feels too squishy overall to ever kill anything aside from other thieves 1v1.

Now the really experienced and good thieves who have fast reflexes are fine with all the changes but if you’re average, you’re sub par compared to other professions and will drag your team down with you or get carried.

So yes, to some degree it is a l2p issue but it’s an unacceptable situation regardless. I play all the professions (except thief for the last couple of months due to obvious reasons) and I never feel like I’m letting my team down because I’m not constantly dead like I would be on thief. It’s just so much easier to survive and contribute on the other professions instead of hiding in stealth or running away constantly.

Stealth and mobility both require fast reflexes and are far from reliable survivability options, if you compare to invulnerability and simple sustain. There’s plenty of counter to mobility and stealth both. Plus thief has the lowest health pool possible and on top of that terrible condi removal and stunbreaks.

You probably should have posted this thread on thief forums to avoid the usual borderline aggressive and ignorant responses. Those who don’t play thief don’t care nor do they usually have anything of value to comment anyway. This thread is probably gonna turn into insults and arguments soon so I’ll just see myself out before that happens.

Thief has a weapon. Other classes has weapons. THIEF SUCK. Also! Steal op

Maris.3164:

You probably should have posted this thread on thief forums to avoid the usual borderline aggressive and ignorant responses. Those who don’t play thief don’t care nor do they usually have anything of value to comment anyway. This thread is probably gonna turn into insults and arguments soon so I’ll just see myself out before that happens.

I counter that by saying those that only play thief are as ignorant maybe even more so and only add insults and passive agressive L2P responses to others arguments.

A well known thief main poster still claims mesmers can perma stealth and thieves can’t when in order to even come close to that the Mesmer would have to devote pretty much 3 trait lines, all utilities and elite. While a thief in their DP meta build can change one trait and essentially have perma stealth without changing anything else.

There’s many other things where thief players intentionally mislead by comparing maximum on one class vs minimum on thief. A great example is burst. A lot of other classes can burst harder than thief however a thief can burst more often and can add better follow up damage.

Generally discussions would be much more constructive if people backed up what they were saying. I have done this plenty of times when thief mains have called rubbish on what I said. The usual response is silence as they have been proven wrong or they then try to deflect.

And to not be a hypocrite look up my post on this forum of “tale of two bursts” it shows the math behind the bursts of what I was saying between Mesmer and thief. I also made another in the mesmer forum calculating thief auto and shadowshot damage.

Maris.3164:

You probably should have posted this thread on thief forums to avoid the usual borderline aggressive and ignorant responses. Those who don’t play thief don’t care nor do they usually have anything of value to comment anyway. This thread is probably gonna turn into insults and arguments soon so I’ll just see myself out before that happens.

The irony is strong with this one…

But back to the OP, things that are actually unforgiving simply don’t get played, other than for fun, for example how may glass cannon static discharge engies have you seen in tournaments over the course of this game? Now glass sd engy may have 4k more HP than a thief, gear shield, prot injection and some cc, but the reality is it is way more unforgiving, and has far fewer effective tools for survivability than thief, mesmer, etc, so it either kills its target or it is probably dead itself, unlike thief.

As for mechanics unique to thief, stealth is not the thief mechanic, initiative with zero cooldown on weapon skills, plus steal is, nor is stealth the only means of defense/survivability in a thief, blinds, dazes, obscene mobility, stuns, evades, some condi clear, etc are there in addition to stealth.

D/P and SB have completely skewed people’s view of thief. D/P is providing most of the stealth access. SB the mobility. This meta build is weak when forced into a 1v1. Thieves have another 5 weaponsets that should be viable. These other weaponsets sacrifice mobility and consistent stealth access, yet having even less 1v1 potential than d/p SB. Is thief back capping potential really so strong that the class has to sacrifice all its sustained fighting ability?

Personally I believe daredevil looks like a crutch traitline for these 4 remaining weaponsets, yet these weaponsets should be balanced around core thief. Blast on dodge for p/p. Pulmonary strike for s/p. Damage on dodge s/d. Extra Condi’s for p/d.

Thieves should just roll another class, not only is it much easier, but you only lose mere seconds to minutes on both the AI roll of Decap and ranger pet (+1).

These are the same people that Screetched teef Op for the past 3 year’s, your not going to convince them, they are just mechanically inept. now that they can finally win do you really think there going to admit thieves are a lootbag?

Here we go again to clarify the "initiative makes thief to not have cd on weaponskills. Because that assumption drives me crazy.
Initiative is another form of cooldown. You can use every skill as long as you have the initative for it. But every skill that uses initiative is basically putting all your weaponskills on both weapons on a “delayed global” cooldown. If you want you can use headshot all the time, but that would dran you initiative and you have to wait until having enough initiative restored for another skill —> again on 0-1 initiative. 12-15sec cd to be full again.
The other defensive stuff isn’t unique to thief, but I have to agree that sometime it is forgotten. They are mostly active and have to be used accordingly though.

I’ll say it again.

If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player.

As for the whole mobility vs 1v1 ability debate. Look thief gave up its team fighting ability for the mobility it has. The fact now that the 1v1 ability is gone should be reversed.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will try to shout down my PoV and that’s ok. It won’t work due to them having absolutely zero facts to counter me but they can voice their opinion.

T raw.4658:

I’ll say it again.

If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player.

As for the whole mobility vs 1v1 ability debate. Look thief gave up its team fighting ability for the mobility it has. The fact now that the 1v1 ability is gone should be reversed.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will try to shout down my PoV and that’s ok. It won’t work due to them having absolutely zero facts to counter me but they can voice their opinion.

They don’t have to shout you down, they only need to ask you to prove what you say in the first place. You have yet to offer any proof that 1v1 with “equal skill” that a thief will lose.

Here’s a nice video from Sindrener. I would assume anyone with an MMR capable of being put in a match up with players of Sindrener’s level certainly doesn’t need to L2P, especially when they’re in the WvW guild he is/was in. Also Katru did an amazing job.

Don’t get me wrong, some classes/builds thief cannot 1v1 at all but it’s not helpless against all classes. The discussion in the vid is nice to.

Thief generally should avoid 1v1ing anything that can be considered a bruiser or anything new with extremely high condition damage output, as most of those builds are designed to hold and shrug off burst (condi new in an exception to the point holding rule). That leaves other zerker builds as the only thing you can really 1v1. And of those, the only ones I would fight as a thief would be power necro with no life force prestacked, marksmanship power ranger (no protective ward) and mantra mesmer with no or few mantras up. Oh and zerker ele/war/engi too are generally pretty thief weak, but medi guard, PU, CI, BD or illusions Shatter Mesmer should be avoided at all costs.

Not sure about zerker revenant yet, but I wouldn’t bet on it since they typical pack revealed.

apharma.3741:

T raw.4658:

I’ll say it again.

If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player.

As for the whole mobility vs 1v1 ability debate. Look thief gave up its team fighting ability for the mobility it has. The fact now that the 1v1 ability is gone should be reversed.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will try to shout down my PoV and that’s ok. It won’t work due to them having absolutely zero facts to counter me but they can voice their opinion.

They don’t have to shout you down, they only need to ask you to prove what you say in the first place. You have yet to offer any proof that 1v1 with “equal skill” that a thief will lose.

Here’s a nice video from Sindrener. I would assume anyone with an MMR capable of being put in a match up with players of Sindrener’s level certainly doesn’t need to L2P, especially when they’re in the WvW guild he is/was in. Also Katru did an amazing job.

Don’t get me wrong, some classes/builds thief cannot 1v1 at all but it’s not helpless against all classes. The discussion in the vid is nice to.

Sinderer, Levin and Toker play with best teams out there. Not everyone has such luxury. Thief needs a good team to actually have any impact on match. Try to pull that with pugs in your average daily yoloq. You know what happend to Levin when he did pugquest and had crappy team? He couldn’t do anything. Period.

I mean by that logic every class should be balanced around top 3 teams and trust me you wouldn’t be facerolling on mesmers right now and talking soo all mighty if Anet actually balanced mesmers around Frostys or Heleths skill level.

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

T raw.4658:

I’ll say it again.

If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player.

As for the whole mobility vs 1v1 ability debate. Look thief gave up its team fighting ability for the mobility it has. The fact now that the 1v1 ability is gone should be reversed.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will try to shout down my PoV and that’s ok. It won’t work due to them having absolutely zero facts to counter me but they can voice their opinion.

They don’t have to shout you down, they only need to ask you to prove what you say in the first place. You have yet to offer any proof that 1v1 with “equal skill” that a thief will lose.

Here’s a nice video from Sindrener. I would assume anyone with an MMR capable of being put in a match up with players of Sindrener’s level certainly doesn’t need to L2P, especially when they’re in the WvW guild he is/was in. Also Katru did an amazing job.

Don’t get me wrong, some classes/builds thief cannot 1v1 at all but it’s not helpless against all classes. The discussion in the vid is nice to.

Sinderer, Levin and Toker play with best teams out there. Not everyone has such luxury. Thief needs a good team to actually have any impact on match. Try to pull that with pugs in your average daily yoloq. You know what happend to Levin when he did pugquest and had crappy team? He couldn’t do anything. Period.

I mean by that logic every class should be balanced around top 3 teams and trust me you wouldn’t be facerolling on mesmers right now and talking soo all mighty if Anet actually balanced mesmers around Frostys or Heleths skill level.

Firstly that video is not all with oRNG, the first few where he 1v1 a mesmer which is what I was asked to provide. Proof a thief can 1v1 other classes successfully and if you read the comments on the vid they estimate thief vs mesmer is 50/50.

Secondly, were any mesmers, you know the ones that are competing with the same thief role carrying any teams? That’s the only way you can make a good “thief so bad in pug quest” argument. You said in a post that was deleted Levin faced a team with a very experience DD ele. Comparing the two of them is a rediculous thing to even begin to try and is insulting to everyone’s intelligence so don’t start with it.

As for your Helseth comment, he did say after the mirror blade nerd Mesmer was balanced, go figure.

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

T raw.4658:

I’ll say it again.

If you lose to a thief 1v1 on any class you are significantly worse than that thief player.

As for the whole mobility vs 1v1 ability debate. Look thief gave up its team fighting ability for the mobility it has. The fact now that the 1v1 ability is gone should be reversed.

I’m sure a lot of ppl will try to shout down my PoV and that’s ok. It won’t work due to them having absolutely zero facts to counter me but they can voice their opinion.

They don’t have to shout you down, they only need to ask you to prove what you say in the first place. You have yet to offer any proof that 1v1 with “equal skill” that a thief will lose.

Here’s a nice video from Sindrener. I would assume anyone with an MMR capable of being put in a match up with players of Sindrener’s level certainly doesn’t need to L2P, especially when they’re in the WvW guild he is/was in. Also Katru did an amazing job.

Don’t get me wrong, some classes/builds thief cannot 1v1 at all but it’s not helpless against all classes. The discussion in the vid is nice to.

Sinderer, Levin and Toker play with best teams out there. Not everyone has such luxury. Thief needs a good team to actually have any impact on match. Try to pull that with pugs in your average daily yoloq. You know what happend to Levin when he did pugquest and had crappy team? He couldn’t do anything. Period.

I mean by that logic every class should be balanced around top 3 teams and trust me you wouldn’t be facerolling on mesmers right now and talking soo all mighty if Anet actually balanced mesmers around Frostys or Heleths skill level.

Firstly that video is not all with oRNG, the first few where he 1v1 a mesmer which is what I was asked to provide. Proof a thief can 1v1 other classes successfully and if you read the comments on the vid they estimate thief vs mesmer is 50/50.

Secondly, were any mesmers, you know the ones that are competing with the same thief role carrying any teams? That’s the only way you can make a good “thief so bad in pug quest” argument. You said in a post that was deleted Levin faced a team with a very experience DD ele. Comparing the two of them is a rediculous thing to even begin to try and is insulting to everyone’s intelligence so don’t start with it.

As for your Helseth comment, he did say after the mirror blade nerd Mesmer was balanced, go figure.

1. Sinderer was better, mes shouldn’t lose to thief atm. Period.
2. I queue with Frosty frequently, he does carry pugs we get. Also, i am glad you follow all my posts, i assume i should thank you for mods visits.
How is it ridicilous? Please tell me~
3. Helseth mains mesmer and is known for being rather subjective, yeah we should totally believe every word he says.

Funny, a lot of others say it’s 50/50 and I believe them over you.
I don’t report you unless you’re being a complete kitten, needless to say I haven’t reported you yet, I only saw your post before it got deleted.
Yeah 2 good players, totally the mesmer carrying the pug group not the really strong “pain train” combo of mesmer thief.

People often think thief is bad 1v1, it’s not bad 1v1 at all, if you build for it.
except the fact that, thief’s most trait is related to stealth
which means, even if you win 1v1, you will lose the point due to stealth.

let’s see with the new Daredevil, it can bring something new.
but again, it’s godly 1v1 if you actually build for it.
the meta thief builds are made around having the idea of being the best +1 roamer.

So thief can open with a potential 7k hit from BS out of stealth. Yeah, I guess that doesn’t sound THAT great but it’s not bad. But then does the thief just run away? Because a thief can’t one shot some one with backstab alone it makes thief do crap damage?

Mesmers aren’t doing all of their burst with one skill, either…

7k Backstab isn’t realistic these days, you hit most of your crit backstab between 4k and 5k.

ragnarokda.1805:

So thief can open with a potential 7k hit from BS out of stealth. Yeah, I guess that doesn’t sound THAT great but it’s not bad. But then does the thief just run away? Because a thief can’t one shot some one with backstab alone it makes thief do crap damage?

Mesmers aren’t doing all of their burst with one skill, either…

someone is having flashbacks from 2013….

Ah maybe… Maybe…

But I did get hit for 9k very recently from BS and that was with 1200 toughness ammy. That’s obviously not common and I probably had vuln on me as well.

ragnarokda.1805:

Ah maybe… Maybe…

But I did get hit for 9k very recently from BS and that was with 1200 toughness ammy. That’s obviously not common and I probably had vuln on me as well.

might stacks + vulnerability would do that….