Guild Wars 2

redslion.9675:

Zhaitan was slain with the firepower of an airship.

Built by the pact, and led by Destiny’s edge.

I really liked Tybalt. Some of the things he said made me chuckle, at least all those apple references.

If you’re going to only make minor changes to the storyline, at least make Trahearne have some comedy value (like Tybalt)… that would at least un-bore me from all the cutscenes of him gloating over his inevitable destiny.

I really liked Tybalt as well. But they killed off the one fun character in the game. Everyone else, including my own character, bores me to tears.

I can understand killing off beloved characters for a bit of emotional impact. But it doesn’t work if the death is unnecessary, out of character, contrived and forced. And it works even less, if the characters you’re left with are boring.

Here is what I think they should have done:

-Have Tybalt survive in some cowardly way, involving apples.
-When Logan sacrifices himself, actually kill him. This is a character I could do without.
-Have Trahearne turn evil at the end.

Yeah, I actually like Trahearne…

He is just one horrible, gruesome, painful, slow, humiliating death from becoming my favorite character.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

-Have Tybalt survive in some cowardly way, involving apples.
-When Logan sacrifices himself, actually kill him. This is a character I could do without.
-Have Trahearne turn evil at the end.

Strongly agree with 2 out of 3 of these… except just having their Morale dashed at the end is just as good. Leave one (or both) of them an even more shattered man. Let’s be honest, Tybalt already looked pretty broken down to begin with. Don’t discount it either, an entire plot of nothing but personal setbacks tells a story too, and worked for Episode 5 (star wars) which is often regarded as the most impactful of the original series. It would have bought time as well to come up with better ‘redemption’ plots involving them for the expansions.

IE: these other guys failed themselves so it’s up to you to go find ways (explorables, WvW rank, etc) to be strong enough to show them what a legendary character really looks like. You’d see them back in your home instance anytime you made big new achievements and they’d take solace in it.

I can see what they were doing with Trahearne here and I don’t hate him or find him as bland as everyone else did. But I know that it didn’t really translate well even when they did it with Kormir who actually was Inspiring and likable atleast at the Start.

I didn’t have so much of a problem with Kormir either, she was just rather bland. But that changed after she claimed the prize for our hard efforts. Should they have let the players become a god then instead? No, clearly not. But any experienced dungeon master will tell you that you should never include the promise of godly powers in your story. That’s DnD 101, along with never giving players wishes. Because that will mess up your story completely. Plus there is no room for any further development if a player becomes a god. But making an npc a god is just as bad. Because it leaves players disappointed. Players want to be the star of the story. And not be forced to watch an npc’s story from the side of the stage.

With Trahearne, I’m not so much bothered by his voice actor. He does an okay job. But he isn’t given much to work with. At no point in the story is the character given any emotion to work with, and he really isn’t necessary for the story to begin with. A character must have a personality first, if you expect the voice actor to breath life into him.

I understand the need to having some known character done a historically important job, rather than a “generic” character achieving it. And I will not touch upon the subject that Trahearne is such an under-developed, bad-voiced character, as this has been pointed out by many people, in 12 full pages of replies.

What I want to bring into attention is the means of generating the character to whom the slaying of Zhaitan (or founding of the Pact) will be attributed. Think about Revan of Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.

—spoiler about KOTOR—
I think identifying the player’s character as an established character in the universe is a great way to get rid of the problem of having unknown heroes doing important deeds. Of course, in the case of GW2, this is almost impossible, as the story is “personal”, and it would be absurd to have one million characters who all turned out to be the same person.

This being said, I must add I am not trying to say “This is the way it should be.”, as I am in great conscience it is not possible to make it so. I just wanted to give an example in which the main character of the story (that are soon to be continued by a sequel) is actually the player.

Even though this cannot be done in the story of GW2, Trahearne was not needed in the story anyway, as there were many others (like Destiny’s Edge) who can take on the role as the leader. We may not have needed a leader in the first place! So, unless Trahearne is processed further in the coming expansions/living story’s, I will not tolerate giving my spotlight to this emo tree.

I’ve heard people make this argument before. Someone has to take credit for Zhaitan being slain, because lore wise it wouldn’t make sense if everyone was the hero…. and that’s something I simply don’t agree with. You can simply say it was the Pact that did it, and you’re done. It doesn’t have to be one specific person that’s responsible.

You can also say it was the hero of Shaemoor that lead the Pact to victory. Or you can say it was the brave crew of the airship that took him down. There are many ways around this problem. You can even simply say it was the combined efforts of the races of Tyria that brought down the dragon.

Making Destiny’s Edge responsible is just as bad as making Trahearne the hero. The players want to be the heroes. Destiny’s Edge is boring. The story should focus on the players, and the rest should just be side characters.

You touch upon a problem that I mentioned earlier as well. Trahearne isn’t needed for the story. But the same also applies to Destiny’s Edge. They basically just swirl around you like a bunch of annoying flies, trying to hog the player’s spotlight. When ever I enter a dungeon with a group of friends, I get a cut scene with Destiny’s Edge. ARGH! And when battling Zhaitan, it’s Destiny’s Edge that fires the mega laser at the dragon and blasts him from the sky. I wanted to punch them in the face. Don’t touch that laser, I was supposed to do that! Stop stealing OUR glory! The game acts like we the players don’t even exist. It seems too busy stroking it’s own ego, and admiring it’s own characters. But what about OUR characters writers at Anet? What about us?

Destiny’s Edge had nothing to do with slaying Zheitan, they were flat on the floor the entire fight…

In the end, WE are the ones that beat Zhaitan or so we think. We did not see the body, so Zhaitan could still be alive! :P

Trahearne is another Palawa Joko in the making!!! He is actually powerful, when you see him summoning 10 fresh golems at once!! Yet, he can’t do that other times, as if he doesn’t want us to complete the quest! And he does nothing during the fight with Zhaitan!!! I didn’t even know what he does during the fight with Zhaitan!!!

I don’t think Trahearne being bland and plain is an issue. He’s a sylvari he doesn’t know much about the world, he has to be naively heroic.

The problem is that there was no one out there to correct him… Just imagine this:

[Trahearne]: RAISE YOUR BANNERS, FIGHT FOR FREEDOM!
[Steward Gixx]: Er… sir, they already know that. You’re just embarrassing yourself
[Trahearne]: Realy? I thought that…
[Steward Gixx]: I’m pretty sure, I’m an Asura. I’m a genius, you know…

That would be awesome! The problem is that everyone follows his naivety…

I agree Ludovicus. The thing that is missing is character interaction. No one ever disagrees with anyone. Especially not with Trahearne. No one ever expresses real emotions. Certainly not Trahearne. He seems to be going just through the motions. If not everyone blindly agreed with Trahearne, at least there would be a bit more interaction between the characters.

Actually that interaction is what made warcraft 3 such a great game (and WoW failed to deliver).

Jaina talking to Thrall an Kairn:
Good luck err… gentlemen.

Antonidas talking to Arthas shortly after he killed his own father:
Lord Arthas! How fares your noble father?

Random elf talking about the defense of Silvermoon:
[Elf]:The forests block the entrance to the city
[Arthas]:I won’t be stopped by some “trees”

I’d love to see Trahearne’s loyalties questioned because he’s a necromancer fighting Zhaitan and his minions.

I’d like to see more of the mistrust between the legion leaders (not just the rabble) and between char and human.

I liked minister Caudecus because it forced the queen to take him to the palace for “protection”.

I’d like to see the inquest trying to manipulate the Asuran population to side them, and accomplishing it, and achieving good things for rata sum. Making you kind of an outlaw.

I’d like to see the avatar of the white tree taking some morally gray decisions in order to destroy a dragon, sacrificing her own sons and other people just due to her naivety and Ventari’s teachings.

I’d like to see destiny’s edge working together but still with mistrust and a split heart.

I don’t know, there are so many things that could be done with the huge lore we have.

Characters need to learn that their motivations have flaws. Both the dark motivations and the noble ones.

But Trahearne, he’s fine so long as he learns that lesson with the rest and grows or dies.

I won’t be surprise if the next villain in the next expansion is Trahearne trying to raise an undead army due to Zhaitan’s absents and trying to take over Tyria for himself!!! :P

And as the hero, we finally will have the chance to face him and see how powerful he really is…… his HP will turn from 1000 to 1000k. :P

I like Trahearne. Only Necro with a Great Sword in the game, and can summon more than one Flesh Golem at a time.

The issue is three-fold.

First we have the lack of emotional attachment. When most of the character interactions in the game are done by two characters standing still in front of a pretty multi-layered two dimensional background, there is no freaking room for the characters to interact with the world around themselves. Other than speaking to each other, even the characters cant interact.

Best example, Chlore Island (Trehearne says its Chlore Island, dont you dare question the Marshal of the Pact). Talon is laying in a pool of his blood (from an injury we dont even see or hear being inflicted). 2D background sweaps in. He is downed, you can see that alright. And you have Deputy Mira, an other character that deserves some discontent for the voice acting. Standing there. Talking. With Bland voice. Slowly.

“Iits thhee duuuttyy off eevverrryyy Lioonguuaaard tooo ggiivveee…”
“For Kormir’s sake, just help him up like i revived you FOUR TIMES already!” – would shout my character.

I just whimper “At least try and raise an arm, unsure of what to do. Take a freaking step closer. Just kneel down next to him. Just try and look said or conflicted. And why do we have the same 2d background as before the battle? Would have been nice if we see our own character battle 2d undead silhouettes in the background, even in slow-mo, just an indication that we are holding the line…”
And thats just the animation part. The voice acting and the actual writing is the last nail though.

The same is the issue with Trehearne. Without interaction in animation, emotional attachment in voice is a must, or the whole character feels detached from everything around him. Trehearne and Mira were not there on Chlore Island. They were sitting in a voice-over studio when that happened. And we only hate Trehearne more than Mira because he still claimed to be with us even after Chlore Island. But he never left the voice-over studio.

Then, there is the actual writing of the character. Every other character interaction has the same limits in the game as he had, but we agonise over him specificly. Why?
First off, there is the fact that he is a sylvari. Dont get me wrong, thats not a reason alone. But what can you have with a sylvari in regards to having a character that you can like? Sylvari by nature lack an important part of building a character: A past. They pop out full grown. Caithe was worked over this well enough with her conflict with Faolin, and her story with Destiny’s Edge. Sieran was just enjoyable as a character, because she was a wild one. So you either have something tragic and conflict-driven, or a goofy comic relief that dies heroicly, giving a new depth of tragedy to the not so serious character.

Trehearne on the other hand? He has no tragedy we know of whatsoever and he is not funny. Just a seemingly impossible purpose given to him by the Dream. His story? He is a loner, watching flesh rot on variously lively individuals. And he is a firstborn. 25 years old. Dont tell me nothing happened to him in that time that didnt form his character! How did he gain the respect and trust of the Orders? What happened? How did it effect him?

Lastly, the writing of the character into the personal story. We all know this one.

“Who is this guy? Why should i care for him? Oh, he makes the same arguement as me and my mentor after we saw the orrian scout. We must be soul-mates already!”

[mumbles] “Fort Trinity was my idea…”

“Sure, you be the leader of the Pact. After all, i joined an order because the script said that i must. Not that i regret it. I have…had…friends…-sobs-… WHHYYYY?”

“Hm? Ah, no, im fine now. Whats that? A decision to make? Uhm….how about we take the upper option? Yes, im sure… Wait, why do you want to come along? Just do the other thing, and we cover more ground! … Ugh… Yes, Spearmarshal…. Did i say Spearmarshal? Huh. Sorry. Marshal.”

“Seek the source.”

“Seek the source.”

“Its so obvious that king’s tomb is not the source.”

“Why am i beliving in the dream the Pale Tree showed us more than you do, firstborn?”

“You dont say! Man, why didnt I think of that?! You are right! We must seek the Source! Thank you Marshal for guiding us to the right path! Surely we would be lost without your leadership, making the hard choices and all that.”

“What do you mean you are not coming against Zhaitan? Wha-thats it? You stab your ‘prick’ into the Source of Orr, fulfill your purpose, and thats it? Orr has nothing more for you? Pull your rear out of this fort that -I- named, and get that five Flesh Golems going, on the double!… No, I am not out of line, you dont even know there is a line! I… You are just afraid of heights, aren’t you. You hate airships… Where are you running now?”

“Let him pout. We are victorious! I’m not ruining this day by…What do you mean he cant come -off- the airhsip without me holding his hands?!”

Just adding that I also hate Trahearne’s guts (roots? sap?). My character follows him blindly everywhere he goes, and then I still end up making all the real decisions. He’s all like, “I’m in charge. Now, tell me what to do, and I’ll take all the credit!”

Conclusion: write Trahearne out and get awesome stuff for Destiny’s Edge.

Direksone.3867:

Conclusion: write Trahearne out and get awesome stuff for Destiny’s Edge.

No, write both Trahearne and Destiny’s Edge out, and make the player the main character. The game should not be a vehicle to sell Guild Wars novels. A game should be about the players. We should be the stars of the show.

I just finished my personal story quest finally!

Pros.
i loved the story of guild wars 2. It isnt the best, but i was into the lore, i took my time playing the game, i didnt rush my story. Trahearne i understood what kind of character he was. He was a philosopher not a fighter but given the position to lead (not by choice), and you his friend and strongest ally. Its not a story about YOU, its about those around you and what effect zhaitan had on the people of tyria. it wasnt a typical your character is the hero blah blah. its something different and i appreciate Anets ability to show something different.

Cons.
Now trahearne wasn’t perfect i must add. I believe that he had a very good voice actor, but he didnt have enough emotion when speaking, and as other players have stated “No inspiring as a leader!” He had no real impact, if you were not into the story you might be turned off by this.

Side Notes:

Destinys edge are amazing! i hope to see some sort of event showing there past :p but putting them into the dungeons was a good idea, after all there are more dragons to slay and the story isnt over. perhaps Anet will change things, or implement them into the story more perhaps with jormag, with Snakitten Death.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Direksone.3867:

Conclusion: write Trahearne out and get awesome stuff for Destiny’s Edge.

No, write both Trahearne and Destiny’s Edge out, and make the player the main character. The game should not be a vehicle to sell Guild Wars novels. A game should be about the players. We should be the stars of the show.

I’m totally okay with being a side figure. All this “you’re the best of the best bestest world saving hero” is so old and tried I can barely stand it, especially in an MMO setting, where you really have to try hard to unsee all those other one-of-a-kind chosen ones running around.

The situation:
The World is in danger. The band that brought the fight to the source of the problem is broken, the organizations that could do something refuse to work together, the end is near.

The solution:
Someone has to take charge, beat senses into the organizations, and once again bring the fight to the source of the problem.

The problem:
That someone is Trahearne

Trahearne is a firstborn of Sylvari, a race of Salads (literally). This particular firstborn decided he wants to be a Necromancer, bringing his full name to Trahearne, Salad Necromancer.

Zhaitan is an elder dragon which was born when Cthulhu and Medusa were emo teens. His particular powers are rising sunken lands and rising the undead. His full name is Zhaitan, the Necromantic Elder Dragon.

So, we have a Dragon Necromancer attacking the world. In retaliation, the world unites under a Salad Necromancer. After the Dragon Necromancer died, the Salad Necromancer is officially in charge. You may have noticed that the title “Necromancer” is still around, so at the end of the day, The Undead rules over the world. Well played.

Trahearne was introduced during the battle for Claw Island. In that particular mission, he demonstrated clairvoyant level of prediction, but nothing of particular about his leadership. Indeed, if there’s one leadership capability he demonstrated, it was “follow a more competent person”.

After that, Trahearne, being a Salad, suggests that we go seek the wisdom of Salad Goddess, and through her “vision”, we were told that Trahearne will be the leader of the world. At this point, the Salad Necromancer was good enough to know he’s actually not a commander, but merely a scholar. The Salad Goddess said “all is well” and gave him Salad Ultima Weapon.

At this point, Trahearne again demonstrates his leadership capability by following you around. After helping your particular organization, YOU suggested that maybe, uniting is good if you all don’t wanna die.

After that, YOU send for the others to meet. YOU beat senses into their heads. And yet SALAD NECROMANCER suddenly “has the respect of the three organizations”

What did Trahearne do that he gained their respect? Absolutely nothing.
What had Trahearne demonstrated that he has the capability to actually lead? Absolutely nothing
What did Trahearne get credit for? ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING

The real problem with Trahearne is the fact that he doesn’t deserve even a lick of what he gets. Aside from what a Salad Goddess said about her own child, there is no evidence that Trahearne is even remotely capable of doing what he’s supposed to do.

For battle of retaking Claw Island, everything Trahearne did can be surmised as this:

Trahearne: we have a big battle in front of us everyone! ANY SUGGESTIONS?
Vigil: Sir, we have manpower, we can describes everything in detail
Priory: Sir, we have firepower, we can yadda yadda
Whispers: Sir, we have agility, we can dabba dabba

Trahearne: Sounds good, now do what you wanna do. I’ll sit back and watch

No questions, no recap, nothing. Claw Island was successfully retaken not because of Trahearne’s leadership, but precisely because he didn’t take any part in it, and let everybody do what they were about to do anyway

And yet, by the time the battle is over, an asura said “there was 1 : gazillion chance we’d succeed, you know” and people answered “if that 1 is Trahearne, I’ll take my chances”

It insults the player’s intelligence and hard work. What he DID do, was going up the highest platform available, put serious firepower around him, and ordered us to do the job. When the big bad boss came, instead of giving advice, he described the Obvious.

He described things like “those green gloopy mess he dropped is poisonous, don’t come into contact with it”. Well, guess what, Marshal Obvious, everyone at the front line already knows that, primarily because someone has gotten into contact with it before you said anything. That’s the kind of information you break out BEFORE the mission.

In short, Trahearne, a lone scholar obsessed with Orr without any experience in organizations, especially regarding military, economy, logistics, and such, becomes a leader just because. And he became the leader in the first place because THE PACT LEADERS LISTENED TO US WHEN WE NOMINATED HIM. You’d think that regarding respect, we have more than Trahearne do.

The real solution:
Get rid of Trahearne entirely. Leave no mark of his existence.
Replace Trahearne with Destiny’s Edge. Personal storyline thus becomes you trying to consolidate them before engaging the other orders

The dungeons tell the Lore of each places instead. CoF, for example, tells the story of Flame Legion. AC tells the story of the Searing.

There.
Huff huff… rant over

Raestloz.7134:

The real solution:
Get rid of Trahearne entirely. Leave no mark of his existence.
Replace Trahearne with Destiny’s Edge.

No, no,no. Destiny’s Edge is just as bland and boring, if not MORE boring than Trahearne. Would you really rather have Logan Thackery taking the spotlight, rather than yourself or Trahearne? I’ll take Trahearne over Logan any time. You’ve got Logan being the goody two-shoes while doing his emo stick, and nagging about Queen Jenna all the time. You have Caithe injecting vague dreamy Sylvari nonsense that doesn’t really contribute anything to any conversation, and mostly just exposing her lack of character by being this living personification of a void in any of the story. Then you’ve got Zojja, who is mostly just annoying, even when she’s trying to act with an attitude. Then there’s Eir Stegalkin who is basically always neutral and doesn’t have an opinion, and is completely unconvincing as a strong female character. The only one with some what of a spine is Rytlock Brimstone, and he’s funny because he’s always a bit of a jerk to the rest.

What they need to do, is write OUR characters better. A lot of us do these story missions with our friends. There’s your band of heroes right there! You don’t need Destiny’s Edge. The player and friends should be the band of heroes. Provide them with character and attitude (based on our choices in the game), and make us the central figures of the story.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Raestloz.7134:

The real solution:
Get rid of Trahearne entirely. Leave no mark of his existence.
Replace Trahearne with Destiny’s Edge.

No, no,no. Destiny’s Edge is just as bland and boring, if not MORE boring than Trahearne. Would you really rather have Logan Thackery taking the spotlight, rather than yourself or Trahearne? I’ll take Trahearne over Logan any time. You’ve got Logan being the goody two-shoes while doing his emo stick, and nagging about Queen Jenna all the time. You have Caithe injecting vague dreamy Sylvari nonsense that doesn’t really contribute anything to any conversation, and mostly just exposing her lack of character by being this living personification of a void in any of the story. Then you’ve got Zojja, who is mostly just annoying, even when she’s trying to act with an attitude. Then there’s Eir Stegalkin who is basically always neutral and doesn’t have an opinion, and is completely unconvincing as a strong female character. The only one with some what of a spine is Rytlock Brimstone, and he’s funny because he’s always a bit of a jerk to the rest.

What they need to do, is write OUR characters better. A lot of us do these story missions with our friends. There’s your band of heroes right there! You don’t need Destiny’s Edge. The player and friends should be the band of heroes. Provide them with character and attitude (based on our choices in the game), and make us the central figures of the story.

No, I said “Destiny’s Edge”. Not Logan, not Eir, not Zojja, not Caithe, not Rytlock, but Destiny’s Edge as a whole. You know, the guys with historical experience for combat? And represent ALL playable races as a whole? One that indeed would have respect from the three Orders?

I don’t know about Zojja, but the rest of Destiny’s Edge actually has reputation amongst their own races at the very least.

Logan is the Queen’s Champion.
Eir is a bit of a legend amongst Norn
Rytlock has a very high position amongst the Legions
Caithe is a firstborn

They started out as combatants, and was successful enough to bring the fight to an Elder Dragon. Not just watch from afar, but actually get in the fight.

Maybe they can even inspire the respective race’s army to join the Pact, because… you know… the Orders are not actual military branch from anyone, they’re literally volunteers. If actual military forces from each race help, they’ll have even bigger army

It’s a personal story. To be honest, I was expecting us to do something that matters for US, not for everybody else, Final Fantasy Tactics A2 style. I don’t expect us to be the hero, because this is an MMO, and making lore for MMO without kitten ing off players is pretty hard, but I do expect someone with real reason and real capability to lead.

As it stands, Trahearne is Kormir from GW1 or Martin Septim from Oblivion. We do all the work, then they slip in and steal everything from us. At least we were acknowledged in Oblivion as the Imperial Champion. In GW2 Trahearne – his ego being pumped up by his mother – thinks he’s the all-important figure in the pact while we do all the decision making and floor cleaning after he falls face first in every quest.

EDIT:
And while we’re at it, we nominate Trahearne – a Salad – as the leader for the sole reason that a Salad Goddess happens to nominate her own son as a leader. Seriously, ANet? I don’t mean to be racist but if you want a particular Salad to lead a multi-racial army, perhaps it’s best to also get votes in from other races, not just from another Salad

Trahearne should only be a counter in our hands.

And it should be all a bit more dramatic: all the three Leaders of the order refuse to form the Pact. You have to kill them/make them die to unify the orders. Maybe by replacing them with the characters that were your partners (adding character growth: your partners grow alongside you and become much more reliable and important inside the order). It might all take place into the batle for retaking Claw Island: you make sure your leaders dies in that battle and your partner is recognized as a hero, getting the final credit for becoming the new leader.

To maintain coherence with all the other players supposed to do the same thing, you might actually be following the order of some misterious force, who is guiding you and many other people without revealing itself.

And your character should remember should Trahearne that he is Great Marshal only because YOU wanted it.

With such a story, the writers would be forced to make your character more interesting: you, with many others, are not following direct orders anymore. You are doing what you think is right. Even if it means murdering and deceiving. Noble character might be torn apart by this necessity, Fierce characters might feel it like a quest for personal power. Charming characters would only think about the good this brings.

And then you can also confront with Destiny’s Edge, that will resent you for what you did but will respect you for what you have become.

Everyone will be more kitten in the end.XD

Raestloz.7134:

EDIT:
And while we’re at it, we nominate Trahearne – a Salad – as the leader for the sole reason that a Salad Goddess happens to nominate her own son as a leader. Seriously, ANet? I don’t mean to be racist but if you want a particular Salad to lead a multi-racial army, perhaps it’s best to also get votes in from other races, not just from another Salad

IMO that’s a pretty misguided train of thought. Simply because

1. The Pact does not revolve around races. It revolves around the Orders.
2. The Orders obviously agreed to it. Thanks to your character’s suggestion.
3. No one else in the Pact knows about the Pale Tree showing you and Trahearne her vision, so there’s no such thing as the Pale Tree imposing on the Pact.
4. Speaking of the Pale Tree, she didn’t nominate anything. She simply pulled a Galadriel.

I agree with everyone else Anet’s writing of this part of the game is real shoddy/contrived/ Kormir-like blahblah, but there is no need for making up things from thin air.

I’m all for criticizing what we don’t like in our games, but ppl need to stick to canon/know what you’re talking about/no headcanon pls.

citypigeon.6358:

Raestloz.7134:

EDIT:
And while we’re at it, we nominate Trahearne – a Salad – as the leader for the sole reason that a Salad Goddess happens to nominate her own son as a leader. Seriously, ANet? I don’t mean to be racist but if you want a particular Salad to lead a multi-racial army, perhaps it’s best to also get votes in from other races, not just from another Salad

IMO that’s a pretty misguided train of thought. Simply because

1. The Pact does not revolve around races. It revolves around the Orders.
2. The Orders obviously agreed to it. Thanks to your character’s suggestion.
3. No one else in the Pact knows about the Pale Tree showing you and Trahearne her vision, so there’s no such thing as the Pale Tree imposing on the Pact.
4. Speaking of the Pale Tree, she didn’t nominate anything. She simply pulled a Galadriel.

I agree with everyone else Anet’s writing of this part of the game is real shoddy/contrived/ Kormir-like blahblah, but there is no need for making up things from thin air.

I’m all for criticizing what we don’t like in our games, but ppl need to stick to canon/know what you’re talking about/no headcanon pls.

Congratulations, you have realized how ridiculous the story is.

We nominate Trahearne precisely because the Salad Goddess’ vision says the Salad Necromancer will be a great leader. That’s the only input we have. There is no other input regarding who should run for the leader. For example, I expect the queen to nominate a human champion, because of their racial bond, and because she’d know humans better than she knows a charr. By using only the Salad Goddess as a source of wisdom, can you tell me what’s the point of having other races to begin with?

And the worst part is, everything I said is canon. We asked a Salad Goddess, she spoke, and that’s all that matters.

No, she didn’t “nominate”, she simply showed you that Trahearne is the leader in the future, said he’ll be a great leader, and gave him the equipment needed to be a leader, oh wait… did she just tell you indirectly that Trahearne should be the leader?

Alas.8456:

—spoiler about KOTOR—
I think identifying the player’s character as an established character in the universe is a great way to get rid of the problem of having unknown heroes doing important deeds.

Yes and no. I’m quite tired of the “from zero to hero in three seconds” kind of story, but using an established character can bring its own problems. If it’s just a matter of giving the player character a place in the world from the get-go, some connections and responsibilities and influence, that’s fine and a good idea!

The particular example of Revan just makes me wince not because of KotOR itself, but because what was done with the character after and outside the game. KotOR didn’t describe Revan beyond some generics (mainly being ridiculously gifted in every way, as RPG protagonists tend to be), leaving the character as ours to define in terms of gender, ethnicity, appearance and so on. Taking all that away by forcing “canon” on the character was pure bait-and-switch BS and something that should never, ever be done IMNSHO.

YuiRS.8129:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No, write both Trahearne and Destiny’s Edge out, and make the player the main character. The game should not be a vehicle to sell Guild Wars novels. A game should be about the players. We should be the stars of the show.

I’m totally okay with being a side figure. All this “you’re the best of the best bestest world saving hero” is so old and tried I can barely stand it, especially in an MMO setting, where you really have to try hard to unsee all those other one-of-a-kind chosen ones running around.

I agree with you both and do not see the issue as either-or. You can have important NPCs without making the player feels like a faceless, forgettable taglong — and you can have stories in which the player character is clearly the protagonist but not The Chosen One Who Alone Can Save Us Because No One Else Is Allowed To Be Remotely Competent.

guys, PLEASE just tell me at what level will Trahearne enter my story.

Cos when he does, I’m going to STOP PLAYING my personal story right there, jump back to sPvP, and pretend that my personal story has ended right before the Cabbage Head showed up.

When someone starts talking about “Claw Island”, bail out

I’m tempted to agree, Claw Island was a big pile of infant cats to deal with. Difficult to handle, slightly off on timing, and loads of Risen to plow through.

I don’t mind Trahearne as much. His job is over now, it’s our turn to be the “specialist” at work fixing things around the Living Story pieces

The whole personal story, the main characters and their motivations, the background where the player is dropped, are mediocre at best.
Lack of imagination, limited resources (as in amount of money invested in the writers) or why AN has chosen this path I do not know.
And nor do I care, since I`m a customer and I care about the final product. Which is lacking a lot, in this area.

What I would like to see is throughout the personal story optional-limited time story quests that pop up to do. These could help our character develop a personality depending on our choices. Perhaps, doing these can ultimately lead to you resting control from Trahearne or Trahearne stepping down to be your advisor. Of course it’s probably too late to do this with the story quest up until now, but it would be nice to have something to develop our character depending on what actions we chose for them.

I’m a big fan of the Tales game, I really liked that in Tales of Symphonia how you treated certain characters in side quests did effect which ending you got because it affected the npc’s attitude toward the main character

But yeah, Trahearne should have had a better character design if he was going to be the hero.

I really disliked Trahearne, basically what everyone else has said is what I’d say too

The destiny’s Edge Dungeons made it feel like I was a nobody helping them out in the dungeons, and our Mentor I’m surprised we didn’t have to fight them in the final mission (with an epic battle), because that would’ve made me a bit emotional

You know, the personal story is like Naruto: half the time it’s about you, then suddenly the focus shifts to the other guy, tapi the point that it’s no longer “personal story” but “trahearne’s story”.

Yeah, I think that’s the problem. We never actually get a “personal” story, all we have ever had is “Trahearne’s story”

Desu Genesis.5940:

I really disliked Trahearne, basically what everyone else has said is what I’d say too

The destiny’s Edge Dungeons made it feel like I was a nobody helping them out in the dungeons, and our Mentor I’m surprised we didn’t have to fight them in the final mission (with an epic battle), because that would’ve made me a bit emotional

That would have been great except that Sylvari cant get corrupted, so the Priory story-line would be screwed.

I love how it went on Dzhudin Stormbreak:

After a few seconds, all the guys around me were lying lifeless, steamrolled by the guy and his abominations.

I remained alone and managed to take all of them down after a long battle.

First think they say is: “OMG Trahearne, you are so cool! You defeated him!”

And Trahearne: “No, we ALL defeated him, together.”

Why didn’t my character answer “Yeah, you all did a great job at LYING ON THE GROUND!”

Seriously, it’s like the fights and the cutscenes are not from the same game. In the fight you were the only thing that stood between Trahearne and his death (WHY ME? WHYYYYY!XD). The cutscene talks about a fight where all the NPCs managed to down the enemy together. Two different things.

And it wasn’t even NEEDED: most of those guys were researchers. They were not supposed to be fighters, so it’s ok if they can’t help in that fight. The only ones that were supposed to help were the crusader and the asura from the order of Whisper.
It would have been better if that crusade died, and Traheare said something about how much he despised himself, not being able to save that Sylvari crusader that worshipped him.

He probably will just resurrect that Sylvari. Salad Marshal is a necromancer

Raestloz.7134:

He probably will just resurrect that Sylvari. Salad Marshal is a necromancer

Sure, considering she said that her only purpose in life is to destroy risen, I am SURE she’ll enjoy being turned into one.XD

redslion.9675:

Raestloz.7134:

He probably will just resurrect that Sylvari. Salad Marshal is a necromancer

Sure, considering she said that her only purpose in life is to destroy risen, I am SURE she’ll enjoy being turned into one.XD

Her purpose in life is to destroy risen. Since she couldn’t achieve that in life, give her a second chance and have her fulfill that in undeath :shrug:

Besides, Salad Necromancer needs to brush his skills

Raestloz.7134:

redslion.9675:

Raestloz.7134:

He probably will just resurrect that Sylvari. Salad Marshal is a necromancer

Sure, considering she said that her only purpose in life is to destroy risen, I am SURE she’ll enjoy being turned into one.XD

Her purpose in life is to destroy risen. Since she couldn’t achieve that in life, give her a second chance and have her fulfill that in undeath :shrug:

Besides, Salad Necromancer needs to brush his skills

Considering the EMBARASSING show his flesh golems gave (almost wiped out by a bunch of grubs… luckily those were ELITE golems), I think no one in this world has done anything so heinous to deserve such a humiliating doom as being resurrected by the Grand Marshal.

This comment will probably have some spoilers, but I believe this entire topic is filled with spoilers anyway, so…

Personally, one of the things that bothered me with Trahearne, is that atleast after he gets Caladbolg, he becomes way too weak!

I’m serious here, I would have no problem with him taking the lead role, so long as he had the power to prove it (such as when he summoned all the minions during one of the storyline missions, but even then they all died and I had to fight the boss 1v1… again…)
He’s the leader of the pact, yet he can’t even kill a simple risen bull on his own?
Actually, I think that is one of the main reasons you just don’t feel he is supposed to get the same credit as you – why should he get the credit, when you do most of the work? Perhaps if you would have established him as more of someone who leads the pact, and not as guy that can fight in the front line as well, where the credits go as deserved (he gets credit for leading, you get credit for the fighting), people would perhaps find him more likeable.

Also, as people said earlier, he does feel a bit pushed in, as only the sylvari races get to hear and see him before-hand, and learn about caladbolg before hand (and how much of a weakling weapon it really is…), the other character races just feel like when he is first introduced to them as “Oh, this is Treahrne, and he’sthis and that, and overall a better guy to recruit then you”, really, that is how I felt like when I first met with my human, I was the hero of shaemor, I saved the queen with the help of the vigil, and… I feel like I am forcefully stepped aside to a guy I never met…

Moreover, we don’t have time to get to know this character personally, and he already comes instead of another character we like (the partner we had in the order we were), which makes him feel even more forced, and unaccepted as a substitute.

Now, about the voice… his voice in the sylvari storyline fits him as a scholar, the voice just doesn’t seem to fit what people would want in a leader.

redslion.9675:

Raestloz.7134:

redslion.9675:

Raestloz.7134:

He probably will just resurrect that Sylvari. Salad Marshal is a necromancer

Sure, considering she said that her only purpose in life is to destroy risen, I am SURE she’ll enjoy being turned into one.XD

Her purpose in life is to destroy risen. Since she couldn’t achieve that in life, give her a second chance and have her fulfill that in undeath :shrug:

Besides, Salad Necromancer needs to brush his skills

Considering the EMBARASSING show his flesh golems gave (almost wiped out by a bunch of grubs… luckily those were ELITE golems), I think no one in this world has done anything so heinous to deserve such a humiliating doom as being resurrected by the Grand Marshal.

My friend, you’re absolutely correct. Even being resurrected by Zhaitan seems to have more benefit than being resurrected by Salad Marshal

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yumae.7256:

I personally really hoped they were setting up Traherne to be another Pale Tree type thing. He sacrifices himself to cleanse Orr, and becomes a tree similar to the Pale Tree that gives life to the country again. Was actually very disappointed with the actual ending.

I’m fairly certain there’s a better reason for that than “we’re bringing him back again later for the next story arc”. I’m also . . . fairly certain he will get a heroic sacrifice later on. I can see no other end to his story arc if it’s intended he be a hero alongside the player and Destiny’s Edge.

I suppose another end could be him being killed off to prove a future opponent is very seriously deadly, but I think that could be a colossal waste of the character.

And how, pray tell, would killing him off prove an enemy was seriously deadly? When your average trash mob can take him out?

Arikyali.5804:

Is it just non-sylvari who dislike Trahearne? In the Sylvari storyline, he shows up pretty early, offering advice and helping in later missions. I think the first time he’s introduced is in the second part of the personal storyline, but it might be earlier.

He just ends up flowing into the position of marshal, not stuffed into it.

And I like him better than Caithe. If you guys think Trahearne’s depressing, you should see Caithe…

I refer to him as “That Talking Celery Stalk”. With about as much personality and flavour. I recently wondered what he tastes like as a salad, or in a stew. I like celery in stew/soup, even tho I hate it raw. If we made soup out of him, I’d finally be able to say I like him.

Calling him monotone and dull is insulting to monotone and dull people. Sawdust has more personality.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Milennin.4825:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

There is, unfortunately, one problem, and it’s increasingly evident the longer this discussion goes on. (Including talk about Braham and Rox, or Logan, or Caithe . . . )

What you might find interesting and fun some other people would find boring and cliche, or badly done.

Obviously, that’s with everything.

That doesn’t mean they can’t, or shouldn’t, try to create a character that’ll be likeable by as many people as possible. While not everyone may have liked Tybalt as a character, most people I’ve seen on these forums like him very much. Same goes for the other 2 Order mentors.
On the other hand, how many people actually like Trahearne as a character, vs how many people disliking him? Yeah, those numbers wouldn’t be pretty if it was possible to somehow get them. But the fact that this thread about disliking Trahearne has reached almost 500 posts, and is one of the largest threads in this section, should indicate that he’s not liked by the majority of the players (how many posts in here do you see people defending the character, really?).

Back to your point: That is why they shouldn’t make the player team up with the same one character for over half of their personal story. It’s not fun for those who don’t enjoy that character.

But on the other side . . . if the people like the character and he’s shuffled off rather quickly (someone mentioned Rytlock here) then it’s not satisfying.

As for:

But the fact that this thread about disliking Trahearne has reached almost 500 posts, and is one of the largest threads in this section, should indicate that he’s not liked by the majority of the players

Some people, like me, post here a lot either for or against him. This isn’t a “one post per person” poll. And I wouldn’t trust polls online anyway – I’ve seen them invalidated way too easily. I would think there are more people who do not care about Trahearne one way or the other, or people who would make fun of him . . . than those who actually actively hate him.

A few posting many times isn’t an indicator of popularity, anymore then stuffing the ballot box is.

My story’s best friend died and I got upstaged by a bowl of salad….

Ain’t life in Rapture grand?

It would probably help if we had some idea of how someone who is 25 years old is a respected scholar. That’s a good age for a promising student, but to be the most capable scholar in a field at that age requires some sort of explanation.

It would also help if, when speaking with the three huge guilds about Trahearne’s qualifications for leadership, you could just agree with them. “You’re right, one battle doesn’t win a war. Do you have anyone who’s won some wars, maybe someone with dragon and undead experience? Yes? Oh, well let’s go talk to them.”

I take it by the length of this thread that there isn’t a combination of story events that gets him killed, and I should stop looking.

Keep in mind that you can’t remotely compare human age to sylvari age. Sylvari fall from the Tree as fully functional adults. They don’t have to spend years learning to walk, talk, use the bathroom or tie their shoes, and even come with some much more advanced skills and knowledge “built in”. Sure, they can be clueless and naive about some things that others take for granted, but that does not make them stupid or childish — it just means they have not experienced these things yet.

A human aged 20-25 has just about finished development. A sylvari of the same age, especially one born with a Wyld Hunt, potentially has been working in her field of expertise for literally as long as she’s been alive. Now, we don’t know when Trahearne’s Hunt really kicked in and made him bugger off to Orr, and as a Firstborn he likely had to do more learning the normal/hard way, but he’s still way ahead of any same-age human, charr, norn or asura.

It’s definitely true that there should have been a better explanation for why the orders were willing to consider him as their leader, though. Just as there should have been more depth to just about every other aspect of the story. Even if the NPCs all know how unique and valuable his first-hand knowledge of Orr and Zhaitan’s minions and powers is, the players need to see it too.

Just completed PS for first time. All i can say he’s most useless character i saw in any game.

He did nothing and even skip last fight because he think that growing some plants in cave in Orr is most important, than helping kill most dangerous creature in the world. And still my character praise him. At least most NPCs praise me instead of him. And most hurt part of this is understanding that my character so stupid to praise him, and every NPC is smart enough to understand that he did nothing, so they won’t praise him.

Meh, this is just ridiculous.