Guild Wars 2

Relentliss.2170:

AndrewSX.3794:

Perplexity runes aren’t avaible in spvp.

Thus, balance team doesn’t give a flying puppy.

^^This Peters only really cares about SPVP or they would have been fixed ages ago.

He is just desperately trying to rise the flopped esports. I can see the so called “concord phenomenon” happening here. At one point the owners of the Concord airplane were well aware that they are only losing money with their project. However, instead of scrapping the project, they kept going because “so many resources were already used on the project.”. Same thing is going on here: anet can’t let the esports crap go even if it’s obvious it will never work without drastical changes.

For the record I have to stand with those that say it is a L2P issue. Allow me to explain. I run perplexity runes on my engineer and when he first started using those runes he dominated. However I am finding out that as time goes by I am losing more fights. Why? Because people are learning how to counter. I could easily list the counters that will destroy my perplex engie but that would be counterproductive for me would it not?

Today I ran into a Kaineng ele a few times in solo roaming in our BL. Although I did put the ele down a few times overall I lost more then I won. Against a DR mesmer we had a long, drawn out fight until that mesmer made one critical error and I won. There are ways to counter a perplex engie, find them. I will give you a hint, one Kaineng hammer warrior had it totally wrong when he bypassed my turrets and everybody else in my group in his blind desire to get to me in a camp fight. He did down me but by then my turrets and team-mates finished him off.

The problem is that hammer warrior knew only one way to attack, one tactic in his mind and he was unable to change to a different tactic during the fight. Thus our small group took out a much larger one.

There are also groups that are quite skilled in handling an opposing group with a perplex engie in the midst and when I run into a group such as that I just switch to my Mes or Guardian and toss something different into the mix. It usually prevails as people are unwilling to change what has been successful up to that point to try a different tactic. That is simple human nature.

As time goes on more and more people will discover how to counter a perplex engie. I am already seeing it happen but those people are not those coming to the forums to QQ about it, they are out working on counters.

The Game Slayer.7632:

Steelo.4597:

1. game.slayer – uses them on his elementalist (!!) and brags in the forum how he would kill anyone 1v1.

2. kuora – said i was a 2222 thief who needs l2p when i stated the opinion warrior stuns are over the top atm in the warrior forum. (i main warrior with 1.5k hours)

just so you know who those scrubs are if you want to “discuss” with them. it has zero to do with l2p, the runes are broken. people saying otherwise either dont have a clue about the game (game.slayer) or are just plain trolling out of habit (kuora). probably both.

Thats because dire gear is the only thing overpowered here. that cat is ridiculous. i have two rupt skills on a 40s+ cd each. putting an ICD on perp runes, say, 30s, would barely even nerf my build what so ever. when i encounter a stun/condi war with perp runes, you know what i do? its calledcounter-play.
“WUT IS COWNTER PWAY?” you ask?

Blind
Remove condi
invuln skills
kite
block
evade

now if youre so bad that you cant do that, and instead want to come to forums to rage about how you cant counter-play somone, be my guest. youre just making yourself look silly.
Dire gear is the only real problem here. condi + ability to flat out tank is stupid. but these runes are fine.

The only condi removal that counters perplexity runes is passive, otherwise you just proc the confusion stacks and if your removal requires a channel they might even get to interrupt that too.

Hard counter – condition removal. I’ve never had a problem playing against people running perplexity runes from any classes. I regularly run mesmer, guardian and engineer, while levelling a necro, and it’s honestly made no difference to me – I can either kill people faster than they can consistently stack confusion, out remove their conditions, or both. Procing the confusion stacks does what, 2k damage? Great, I’ll just eat that damage.

Opc.4718:

Hard counter – condition removal. I’ve never had a problem playing against people running perplexity runes from any classes. I regularly run mesmer, guardian and engineer, while levelling a necro, and it’s honestly made no difference to me – I can either kill people faster than they can consistently stack confusion, out remove their conditions, or both. Procing the confusion stacks does what, 2k damage? Great, I’ll just eat that damage.

Condition removal is very dependent on class and traits. Until we get trait templates that you can load before a fight, not a hard counter.

Well seeing as conditions are pretty much a huge part of the pvp meta (and I mean pvp in the general sense of the word, not the game mode), I don’t see why you wouldn’t be running condition removals in wvw in the first place. Without sufficient condi removal, you’re pretty much walking free loot bags. If you’re unwilling to sacrifice certain utilities/trait points to have condi removal at hand at all times, you only have yourself to blame when you get melted down by things like confusion. The 4 classes I know well and regularly play (mes, guard, engi, necro) all have sufficient condition removals with several commonly viable wvw builds. I know thief and ele also have plenty of condi removal options. I’ve just never found myself in the position where confusion has become an issue during a fight, but maybe that’s because I haven’t met any good players running them yet.

Opc.4718:

Well seeing as conditions are pretty much a huge part of the pvp meta (and I mean pvp in the general sense of the word, not the game mode), I don’t see why you wouldn’t be running condition removals in wvw in the first place. Without sufficient condi removal, you’re pretty much walking free loot bags. If you’re unwilling to sacrifice certain utilities/trait points to have condi removal at hand at all times, you only have yourself to blame when you get melted down by things like confusion. The 4 classes I know well and regularly play (mes, guard, engi, necro) all have sufficient condition removals with several commonly viable wvw builds. I know thief and ele also have plenty of condi removal options. I’ve just never found myself in the position where confusion has become an issue during a fight, but maybe that’s because I haven’t met any good players running them yet.

Too much like common sense. Please take this elsewhere.

Theftwind.8976:

For the record I have to stand with those that say it is a L2P issue. Allow me to explain. I run perplexity runes on my engineer and when he first started using those runes he dominated. However I am finding out that as time goes by I am losing more fights. Why? Because people are learning how to counter. I could easily list the counters that will destroy my perplex engie but that would be counterproductive for me would it not?

You losing fight because you try to solo a group of 5-6 ppl .
For your info, condition remove skill proc confusion dmg if confusion is not removed.
Most skill don’t remove all condition at the same time.

If it is useless as you said, why you try to defend it?
Hard counter to perplexity runes
Run a perplexity runes and run with friends
Most ppl who run perplexity rune think they can 1 vs many .

Sreoom.3690:

Cynz.9437:

Soon.5240:

The thing about Engineer’s use of the Perplexity Runes is that the main tools/kits/weapons that we use to proc Interrupt or add Confusion do very little damage in and of themselves. Static Shot, Magnet, Prybar, Shield, #3 Bomb – none of these are very powerful.

what does it matter when the person sits there with 25 confusion stacks and can’t attack back…

look at fireworks thief, he didn’t even use any weapon dmg and thieves can’t even get such high stacks like engi

That thief video proves a point how OP thieves are….just say’n.

He’s fighting thieves (ones that use daggers and stealth!). He’s fighting 2v1 against thief and warrior (two of the best roaming classes).

Again
-only perplexity runes
-2v1
-against 2 best roaming classes
-against fully geared 80s
-his armour set is greens
-with no weapons or the stats that those weapons give
-while they have a zerg nearby to retreat to and he has nowhere to run
-he’s a stealthless thief so he really can’t just hide and run away

Yes they are OP especially when paired with Dire armor on a bunker with builds that have numerous interrupts/condition types. These need an ICD so they fall in line with other rune sets in the game. I have already switched to lemongrass food and Hoelbrak to help mitigate conditions since condi removal is almost pointless.

Opc.4718:

Well seeing as conditions are pretty much a huge part of the pvp meta (and I mean pvp in the general sense of the word, not the game mode), I don’t see why you wouldn’t be running condition removals in wvw in the first place. Without sufficient condi removal, you’re pretty much walking free loot bags. If you’re unwilling to sacrifice certain utilities/trait points to have condi removal at hand at all times, you only have yourself to blame when you get melted down by things like confusion. The 4 classes I know well and regularly play (mes, guard, engi, necro) all have sufficient condition removals with several commonly viable wvw builds. I know thief and ele also have plenty of condi removal options. I’ve just never found myself in the position where confusion has become an issue during a fight, but maybe that’s because I haven’t met any good players running them yet.

the problem is that it is really easy to reapply it while removing condition has certain requirements and is usually not spammable

I will bring example a thief: yes they can trait into condi removal, but they would have to go in stealth to do so – to go in stealth they either would have to attack or use relative long CD spells like refuge or hide in shadows.

Not to mention there is DR on stealth, meaning a thief can stealth only 3 times in given amount of time, after that they are immune to stealth for a while and can’t remove conditions outside of…activating sigil which also has long CD. Once thief has no means of removing confusion except to wait.

Additinally, either it is black powder/heartseeker stealth or CnD stealth, all of them do dmg, meaning if thief has confusion stacks on them they dmg themself trying to remove confusion.

And once again, not to forget that all of that either costs initiative or has long CD, so is not spammable compared to confusion spam.

Now in real situation, knowing how much time thief would spend trying to remove those confusions they are eaither dead or had to run away.

Simply put there, no matter how you try you won’t have enough condition removals to deal with all those conditions. The rune needs long ICD.

P.S. now i just noticed that you play mesmer, engi and guardian, so it explains why you would defend something so broken.

The current state of perplexity runes:

So few people seem to realise that confusion activates on skill use, so you still have to tank a tick to cleanse.

Anyone defending these runes is absolutely clueless.

If they were introduced to sPvP they wouldn’t have lasted a day.

The only counter to a skilled player running perplexity is to flee and hope for the best.

If they had an ICD, they would be decent but not OP.

Right now, these are pretty good on a Mesmer who is supposed to be ‘The Confusion Class’, but these runes are absolutely OP on an Engie, Warrior and Thief who NOT the Confusion class.

Hopefully there is an ICD or some other significant change to these come Oct 15.

Right Anet?

I like them very much on my engineer, but I have to agree that they are beyond ridiculous on “headshot” spamming thieves, and stun-lock warriors.

What’s more hilarious is when a 5+ person team is ALL using them, like certain pvp wannabe guilds my server is facing at the moment.

lunyboy.8672:

I like them very much on my engineer, but I have to agree that they are beyond ridiculous on “headshot” spamming thieves, and stun-lock warriors.

What’s more hilarious is when a 5+ person team is ALL using them, like certain pvp wannabe guilds my server is facing at the moment.

They’re more ridiculous on engis than warriors… engi can spam interrupts while still applying other types of conditions.

Cynz.9437:

the problem is that it is really easy to reapply it while removing condition has certain requirements and is usually not spammable

I will bring example a thief: yes they can trait into condi removal, but they would have to go in stealth to do so – to go in stealth they either would have to attack or use relative long CD spells like refuge or hide in shadows.

Not to mention there is DR on stealth, meaning a thief can stealth only 3 times in given amount of time, after that they are immune to stealth for a while and can’t remove conditions outside of…activating sigil which also has long CD. Once thief has no means of removing confusion except to wait.

Additinally, either it is black powder/heartseeker stealth or CnD stealth, all of them do dmg, meaning if thief has confusion stacks on them they dmg themself trying to remove confusion.

And once again, not to forget that all of that either costs initiative or has long CD, so is not spammable compared to confusion spam.

Now in real situation, knowing how much time thief would spend trying to remove those confusions they are eaither dead or had to run away.

Simply put there, no matter how you try you won’t have enough condition removals to deal with all those conditions. The rune needs long ICD.

P.S. now i just noticed that you play mesmer, engi and guardian, so it explains why you would defend something so broken.

I’ve never used runes of perplexity, and never will. I have way better things to spend my money on I’m just stating these runes have never bothered me much on the classes I play. I am however, actually very tempted to get these runes for my guardian, and watch zergs kill themselves on confusion when I put down wardings for tower/keep defence.

Now I’m no expert as a thief, but I’m fairly sure a good thief doesn’t rely on skill spam so 1) confusion shouldn’t be an issue where you accidental spam yourself to death without realising it and 2) You become way harder to interrupt. Good thieves I’ve duelled all do damage mitigation by evades, go into stealth, deal a ton of damage, and pop back out far away, with little button mashing or auto attack involved. That means interrupts are actually hard to land, they’re likely going to evade it, and they wont be spamming skills at the same time. Plus, they’re going to be stealthed frequently, even if it is just for the few seconds before they land a stealth opening move after a CnD or something, and using 1-2 skills under confusion isn’t going to kill you. The point is, the really good thieves I’ve played against don’t allow themselves into a situation where they can be interrupted. Obviously there’s a few different builds out there, but most viable thief builds rely on the same tactics, and because it is hard to land a targeted skill on them, people find thieves OP.

The counter to these thief builds is big AoE attacks and knowing when to dodge their stealth opening moves, so I can imagine decent hammer stun warriors becoming an issue, but melee classes are going to be less mobile and that plays to the thief’s advantage.

However, most wvw thieves ARE trashy, don’t evade properly, and do spam themselves to death, or otherwise get completely confused when their standard gank skill rotation gets messed up. I’m all for thieves 2222222ing themselves to death

A better example would be mesmer, since there’s very limited condi removal options on them. A tanky mesmer traited for condi removal on shatter, or else using torch, will have things easy. Otherwise, you become reliant on long cd null field or arcane thievery. If a duel becomes a match of attrition, you’re probably going to lose against someone who can stack confusion, but then again, it’s the same if you’re up against any condition classes. If a necro gets a signet of spite on you with your condi removals on cd, you’re basically dead, and that’s the way it’s been since the start of gw2. Your best bet against a condi class would be to moa the guy and burst them down during the 10 seconds, or be super clever with your clones and stealth so the guy never gets a target on you.

Player Character.9467:

lunyboy.8672:

I like them very much on my engineer, but I have to agree that they are beyond ridiculous on “headshot” spamming thieves, and stun-lock warriors.

What’s more hilarious is when a 5+ person team is ALL using them, like certain pvp wannabe guilds my server is facing at the moment.

They’re more ridiculous on engis than warriors… engi can spam interrupts while still applying other types of conditions.

You’d be giving up a LOT on an engineer if you want to get to the stage where you can “spam” interrupts. Lots of warriors using the runes in a team fight will be nasty since you can’t expect everyone to evade all of it, but it’s handleable in a duel. A good headshot thief could potentially be troublesome to handle, but I’ve honestly never met one before who could sustain it for long. I’ll reserve judgement until I do :o

Now while I’ve been saying that runes of perplexity aren’t THAT bad, I agree it’s gimmicky and makes it way easier to kill people without requiring you to play any better. A cool down for the 6th ability would make things much more balanced, and get rid of all the spamming nonsense.

Player Character.9467:

They’re more ridiculous on engis than warriors… engi can spam interrupts while still applying other types of conditions.

Untrue, warriors are capable of much faster CC spam and also can trait to deal an additional 4 stacks of confusion per interrupt.

Engi CC is also easier to evade.

Opc.4718:

You’d be giving up a LOT on an engineer if you want to get to the stage where you can “spam” interrupts.

Also untrue. It is common for WvW roaming builds to already carry 5 regardless of perplexity.
The significant issue is that these builds are effective pre-perplexity. With the additional passive confusion stacks they are ridiculous.

Brew Pinch.5731:

Player Character.9467:

They’re more ridiculous on engis than warriors… engi can spam interrupts while still applying other types of conditions.

Untrue, warriors are capable of much faster CC spam and also can trait to deal an additional 4 stacks of confusion per interrupt.

Engi CC is also easier to evade.

A warrior carrying pure CC weapons can’t smother their stacks with blind, poison, burn, and bleed (they can weakness, cripple, and trait vuln). When a warrior only puts confusion on you, you CAN remove it, when an engi puts 6 conditions on you at once you can pray confusion gets targeted by removal.

These are frustratingly effective when they are run by an entire group or guild like someone earler in this topic said. I found out the hard way yesterday when I and some others from my server where perma confused with dunno how many stacks.

Superior Sigil of Generosity fixed perplexity issues for me. In fact now I love facing thieves 1v1 that use them.
Such easy kills. Wait for them so stack 3 different condis along with some confusion and then blindingpowder for uninterruptable stealth → Sneak attack → watch them melt as they keep spamming 4.
Necros and Engis even easier.
The runes are overpowered but the players that use them usually are very bad.
Matter of fact, the day they get nerfed to have an ICD on the 6th bonus I probably will start using them myself.

AndrewSX.3794:

Perplexity runes aren’t avaible in spvp.

Thus, balance team doesn’t give a flying puppy.

Bingo! You’ve hit the nail on the head.

With generosity is it a random condition or the last one applied? (Either way I would think that eng’s with our ability to apply so many different conditions would still be a problem with the 10s icd though.)

This isnt meant to sound kitteny but I absolutely have no issues vs Engis with my build. Yes the transferred condition is random. It is no guarantee, but it helps. You need to time your sneak attacks after removing two condis in stealth. If you removed the confusion, then youll be happy either way. He now has many interrupts on CD and you probably just transferred 10 bleedstack or 10 second burning to him.
If you entered in stealth through HiS, then Confusion mostly is the only condition on you and you might want to instantly transfer it.
Engis barely have condiremove and will be screwed if offensive or try to flee if defensive.
You will be appying 5-7 stacks of confusion after stealing if you do it right anyway, as you steal an aether field.

If you want ot beat the meta, be the metas predator.

Really tired of roamers with perplexity runes, seriously broken kitten. It’s not about meta, the rune is literally broken.

The rune is only broken if you can spam interrupts.
If a P/d thief uses it, its legit 8-13 stacks every 15-20 seconds.

Zumy.6318:

Superior Sigil of Generosity fixed perplexity issues for me. In fact now I love facing thieves 1v1 that use them.
Such easy kills. Wait for them so stack 3 different condis along with some confusion and then blindingpowder for uninterruptable stealth -> Sneak attack -> watch them melt as they keep spamming 4.

Theorycrafting is nice but I think you didn’t try out your theory.
To proc Superior Sigil of Generosity , you need to land a crt .
To land a crt you need to attack
To attack , you will be procing confusion
Before you transfer the confusion, you are already dead.

The rune is only broken if you can spam interrupts.
If a P/d thief uses it, its legit 8-13 stacks every 15-20 seconds.

A D/P thief can apply 15 stack within 2sec.24 stack is possible
JUST BY SPAMMING HEAD SHOT

I think you missed the point where you use blinding powder to stealth and also that sneak attack will always procc it if you crit.
You should survive 2 (two) ticks of confusion if you did not run around like a headless chicken before.

No theorycrafting at all, but empirical evidence.

Zumy.6318:

I think you missed the point where you use blinding powder to stealth and also that sneak attack will always procc it if you crit.
You should survive 2 (two) ticks of confusion if you did not run around like a headless chicken before.

No theorycrafting at all, but empirical evidence.

Blinding powder will proc confusion. After that , you think he is going to stand there ?
Also the chance is 60% , not “always” So what happen if your crt fail to transfer condition?

By the way, you have taken 2 confusion dmg.
Hit again and hopping for a successful crt and transfer , and eat confusion in the mean time?

1 Confusion at Blinding Powder
1 Confusion at Sneak Attack

Sneack attack deals damage 5 times and all 5 have the possibility to crit. I have 70% critical chance with fury and the sigil reliably procs on every sneak attack when off cooldown.

Anything else?

Now I kinda want to make perplex thief.

KOK.2650:

By the way, you have taken 2 confusion dmg.
Hit again and hopping for a successful crt and transfer , and eat confusion in the mean time?

yup, if your build can’t stand to soak a few confusion hits, you might want to not be made out of wet paper.

perplexity and the builds that take advantage of it are an excellent counter to spammy glass cannons.

the real balance problem with some of those perplexity builds is the perpetual stunlock, not the confusion.

^this very much.

Also give the rune and internal CD on the 6th bonus and it is perfectly balanced for 0 0 30 10 30 or 10 0 30 0 30 thieves.

Zumy.6318:

Superior Sigil of Generosity fixed perplexity issues for me. In fact now I love facing thieves 1v1 that use them.

Best you can do is a single CD transfer every 10s… every necro and engi you pop that on worth their salt is not even noticing it. That sigil has an ICD of 10s.

A good condi bunker will drop 4+ condis and keep them up. Even after a stealth/shadowstep which will likely cleanse 5 CDs, they just stack it right back up. Duel a decent condi bunker then come back and have a conversation because it will be a different one.

I don’t even bother with them anymore because an engi will just bomb his way out and a necro will tor-fear or plague form. Good luck if you run into two of them.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

yup, if your build can’t stand to soak a few confusion hits, you might want to not be made out of wet paper.

Cause one one attacking you only do only confusion dmg plus he will sit and wave at you watching you killing yourself?

Straegen.2938:

Zumy.6318:

Superior Sigil of Generosity fixed perplexity issues for me. In fact now I love facing thieves 1v1 that use them.

Best you can do is a single CD transfer every 10s… every necro and engi you pop that on worth their salt is not even noticing it. That sigil has an ICD of 10s.

A good condi bunker will drop 4+ condis and keep them up. Even after a stealth/shadowstep which will likely cleanse 5 CDs, they just stack it right back up. Duel a decent condi bunker then come back and have a conversation because it will be a different one.

I don’t even bother with them anymore because an engi will just bomb his way out and a necro will tor-fear or plague form. Good luck if you run into two of them.

Please Tell me more about your knowledge concerning thieves fighting condibunkers.
I said it helps and if you dont spam skills mindlessly it can even be controlled.

If you cant, well then learn it. This game isnt rocket science and dodging is no random action.
I yet have to die vs one of the above classes in my PD build.

Sepreh.5924:

The current state of perplexity runes:

that picture makes insanely good sense.

Zumy.6318:

Straegen.2938:

Zumy.6318:

Superior Sigil of Generosity fixed perplexity issues for me. In fact now I love facing thieves 1v1 that use them.

Best you can do is a single CD transfer every 10s… every necro and engi you pop that on worth their salt is not even noticing it. That sigil has an ICD of 10s.

A good condi bunker will drop 4+ condis and keep them up. Even after a stealth/shadowstep which will likely cleanse 5 CDs, they just stack it right back up. Duel a decent condi bunker then come back and have a conversation because it will be a different one.

I don’t even bother with them anymore because an engi will just bomb his way out and a necro will tor-fear or plague form. Good luck if you run into two of them.

Please Tell me more about your knowledge concerning thieves fighting condibunkers.
I said it helps and if you dont spam skills mindlessly it can even be controlled.

If you cant, well then learn it. This game isnt rocket science and dodging is no random action.
I yet have to die vs one of the above classes in my PD build.

Tell me you stream. I so want to see this thief that outplays every engineer and necro. Unless you just do the PD thing and run away when you get to 75% health.

Its not the thief, I do that with every class I play. I am just better.

;-)

On a serious note: if any class has the tools to beat the condition meta it is P/D-Thief.
Just stop the spam and quit thinking black or white. I am grey.

Opc.4718:

I’ve just never found myself in the position where confusion has become an issue during a fight, but maybe that’s because I haven’t met any good players running them yet.

Most likely. If you go to a fight club you’ll probably find at least a few good players abusing them.

“WvW isn’t meant to be balanced”

Anet Trollface.jpg

Just another brainless yet effective build to add to the list. Hope your particular class has an equally broken build or a specific counter available or be prepared to do lots of fleeing. Just another day in WvW.

I’m privileged enough to have a Thief, so my Shadow’s Embrace makes me immune to condition builds, thankfully.

Zumy.6318:

Its not the thief, I do that with every class I play. I am just better.

;-)

On a serious note: if any class has the tools to beat the condition meta it is P/D-Thief.
Just stop the spam and quit thinking black or white. I am grey.

plz stream or join my tpvp team so I can revel in your greatness.

Sowwy, I dont play in NA.
But you can whisper me ingame and I send you :-* and <3.

And maybe I also pay a supersize Happy Meal for you, if I like you.

Zumy.6318:

Sowwy, I dont play in NA.
But you can whisper me ingame and I send you :-* and <3.

And maybe I also pay a supersize Happy Meal for you, if I like you.

d’aww, thank you fwend

Sell now!!

On a serious note just put a reasonable ICD on the 6 piece and it should be good to go.

4 piece bonus is a good one and a good example of how other 4 piece bonuses on many runes should be. The 6 piece is the issue.

coooooooooool.

another option: reduce the stacks to like 2-3 instead of 5, no icd

Josh Davis.6015:

Perplexity Runes are definitely on our radar. I talked with our designers about this and you can expect some changes to this rune-set in the near future. I don’t have specific details on what changes we’ll be making, but I figured I’d let you guys know that we are looking at it.

Thanks guys!

give it a 10 sec icd