Remove Ascended from WvWvW
Why do people want to change WvW’s rule set now when it was like this before?
It was not like this before.
I didn’t see anyone complain about WvW ranks either
Choosing to not take notice of something does not mean that it doesn’t exist.
As we close in my team has an 24% extra damage (8% x 3) potential. But your team is wise, the ele buffs you all with 25 stacks of might and the mesmer casts timewarp. Do you know what just happened? your team got a boost of 80% damage for each of your characters. that basically puts you ahead of my team by a whooping 216%
Sorry, math mistakes bug me, Im OCD on that kind of stuff, kind of like a Grammar World War 2 German leader. But if each person is doing 8% more damage, you do not multiple it by 3 to get the total extra damage that the team is making. Let me show you an example.
Lets say each person does 100 DPS in exotic gear, so 8% more would be 108 DPS in ascended gear. So for a group of 3, that would be 300 DPS for exotic team, and 324 DPS for an ascended team, 324 is still 8% more than 300.
Other than that, agree with your post.
You’re right, sorry silly mistake and please feel free to correct away every time I make a mistake even if it goes against my own argument, its not about being right its about facts after all!
You do realise we just calculated this a few posts enough to 8.6% max (we’re talking you using all buffs and criticing and all. its not 20%! feel free to point out the error in the calculations above if you feel they’re wrong.
Does that include armor?
no and thats fair enough.
Ascended gear is 9% better then exotic gear so we can expect that going with the same thief example given so far s/he’ll get an extra 28.4 power from the jump to ascended gear.
that means without the buffs:
Ascended (1030×2337×2.4) /1836 = 3146.5 vs 2871 = 8.8%
with buffs:
Ascended (1030×3404×2.4) / 1836 = 4583
4583 × 262% = 12009 vs 10894 = 9.3%
Slightly larger true still no where close to 20%
No, you couldn’t. You must not have read the thread’s title. Here it is: Remove Ascended from WvWvW
I’m talking about the imbalance of As gear. You talking about all the other imbalances is what has nothing to do with anything.
You seem confused, have you slept poorly recently?
The title is asking for the removal of ascended gear, that has to be justified, the justification being given is its creates imbalance. Is that justification valid? you can only know by looking at the whole picture. Example. I want a raise, whats my justification? I am not paid enough. I cannot prove that I am not being paid enough simply on the bases that I feel I am not being paid enough if that were the case everyone would get raises all the time cause I never really met anyone who felt they’re paid enough. What generally happens instead in that case is your wage is compared to the rest of the industry for that of people in the same position. If its true then you’ll get your raise if you’re infact paid more then the average then you dont really have a bases for your I am not paid enough argument. Same here if imbalance is your concern if you want action about it you have to prove two things. 1. That imbalance is actually damaging to the game 2. a good reason why that imbalance should be addressed through ascended gear. Its already hard to prove 1 but even if you did why should they address one of the smallest causes of imbalance rather then the other large ones?
Also yes I slept very well thanks for your concern. Hope you slept well too.
Erm. No. It’s nice of you to try and move the goal post, but that argument is already sunk. DOTA has plenty of situations where you are not in an even position with your opponent or opponents, and guess what? Stats matter in those situations too.
I am not moving anything you are Dota isnt anything close like WvW the same rules dont apply to both games. Also like I already explained +1 to any stat in dota is not going to put you at par with 2 enemies ergo if you manage to kill 1 of them or you manage to escape the encounter, stats was not what got the job done it was just a minor help. Not only that but that in itself is not an imbalance because 2 ganging up on you means two of you team are ganging up on 1 of theirs. Balance. Just to avoid going back or forth if you plan to rebut that by pointing out it could be that their team killed one of ours before and thus there is no balance being achieved by 2 of them ganging up on one of you then keep in mind that such unbalance is the designed death penality. You’re being punished for failure essentially.
More balance? Sup, man that doesn’t care about removing As gear.
More balance means nothing until you achieve balance.
If I am trying to balance a wet marble over a pin will it help that i wipe it dry? no… even though the whole thing would become more balanced so to speak until you remove all factors that cause imbalance there will be no difference.
The main argument is that when you take two equally skilled players, using the same profession and race combination, that Ascended gear will guarantee a victory over the non-Ascended gear opponent. One major flaw to this is that equally skilled players fighting one on one, using the same profession and race, is unique. You cannot use this argument as proof that Ascended gear needs to be removed, because 99.99999% of WvW isn’t like this. Having a small stat increase from Ascended gear will never guarantee wins in a real WvW fight. That is a proven fact, since no two players are exactly alike. You cannot measure skill level with numbers, therefore you cannot compare two different people.
This is how the current argument is going:
Ascended > Exotic. Therefore remove Ascended gear.
Exotic > Rare. Therefore remove Exotic gear.
Rare > Masterwork. Therefore remove Rare.
Masterwork > White. Therefore remove Masterwork.I think the complainers would be happy if everyone was on the same level – Basic White gear. But they fail to realize that WvW is not SPvP. If they’re not happy with WvW, they should stick to the structured PvP part of the game, where everything is even.
But hark, there’s more:
Superior Runes can give an unfair advantage as well, since they add bonus stats to a player’s attributes. And since Superior Runes are so hard to come by in WvW… well, you know how the current argument goes.
Personally I would like it if they deleted PvE gear from WvW altogether:
- Make everyone level 80
- Provide skin database and armour with same stats (no tiers)
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
I’m pretty sure people leaving and taking their $$$ with them is the only evidence ArenaNet really cares about.
well Gw1 had what you wanted, PvP that was fully balanced (technically Gw2 has it too but anyhow) yet Colin stated a month or so ago that WvW as it stood right now (ie a month or so ago) has more players then pvp in gw1 ever had in the entire life of the game. So if you want to use player count as a metric of evidence between fully balanced and not it seems numbers are against you there.
“Evidence”
“From my experience”
“I don’t feel at a disadvantage”
vs
Objectively higher numerical values on the stats of items and weapon damage values
“Numbers on paper isn’t evidence”
¯\(°_o)/¯
Apologism. Apologism never changes.
Depends on what you’re arguing
objective higher numerical values are only proof ascended gear are better then exotic gear. It doesnt prove anything else.
Numbers only mean stuff in relation with everything else in the whole big picture.
Also no one is apologizing about anything much less for anyone. We;re just disagreeing this is something that needs to be addressed thats all.
The main argument is that when you take two equally skilled players, using the same profession and race combination, that Ascended gear will guarantee a victory over the non-Ascended gear opponent. One major flaw to this is that equally skilled players fighting one on one, using the same profession and race, is unique. You cannot use this argument as proof that Ascended gear needs to be removed, because 99.99999% of WvW isn’t like this. Having a small stat increase from Ascended gear will never guarantee wins in a real WvW fight. That is a proven fact, since no two players are exactly alike. You cannot measure skill level with numbers, therefore you cannot compare two different people.
This is how the current argument is going:
Ascended > Exotic. Therefore remove Ascended gear.
Exotic > Rare. Therefore remove Exotic gear.
Rare > Masterwork. Therefore remove Rare.
Masterwork > White. Therefore remove Masterwork.I think the complainers would be happy if everyone was on the same level – Basic White gear. But they fail to realize that WvW is not SPvP. If they’re not happy with WvW, they should stick to the structured PvP part of the game, where everything is even.
But hark, there’s more:
Superior Runes can give an unfair advantage as well, since they add bonus stats to a player’s attributes. And since Superior Runes are so hard to come by in WvW… well, you know how the current argument goes.
Personally I would like it if they deleted PvE gear from WvW altogether:
- Make everyone level 80
- Provide skin database and armour with same stats (no tiers)
I’m honestly having a hard time trying to figure out who would be upset by this.
“Evidence”
“From my experience”
“I don’t feel at a disadvantage”
vs
Objectively higher numerical values on the stats of items and weapon damage values
“Numbers on paper isn’t evidence”
¯\(°_o)/¯
Apologism. Apologism never changes.
Depends on what you’re arguing
objective higher numerical values are only proof ascended gear are better then exotic gear. It doesnt prove anything else.Numbers only mean stuff in relation with everything else in the whole big picture.
Also no one is apologizing about anything much less for anyone. We;re just disagreeing this is something that needs to be addressed thats all.
Same trait setup, same type of gear:
With ascended items instead of exotic, every single damage skill will do more damage on average.
Numbers don’t lie. One setup results in more damage. There you got your imbalance.
Wouldn’t be a problem if ascended items were easy to get for casuals, but that is not true.
Mesmer PvE Guide
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
You can preview the ascended armor stats by using chat codes (google these). If you were to equip an entire set of armor, the stat boost is only like +30 to your primary stat and +14 to secondary stats (for the full set, NOT per piece). Also it only adds about 30 defense iirc.
Let’s be honest, one stack of might (or the bloodlust buff) gives more of a buff than the ascended armor will.
Inir [CAT]
You can preview the ascended armor stats by using chat codes (google these). If you were to equip an entire set of armor, the stat boost is only like +30 to your primary stat and +14 to secondary stats. Also it only adds about 30 defense iirc.
Let’s be honest, one stack of might (or the bloodlust buff) gives more of a buff than the ascended armor will.
Me in ascended armor (same stats) will do more damage than me in exotic armor. Even with just one piece of ascended, I will do more damage than with exotic.
The more ascended pieces I have, the more damage I will do. I thought that was a simple concept.
Mesmer PvE Guide
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
The Leveling & Open World Compendium
I’m interested in your case study. No doubt, since the myriad of other mechanics at play trump higher numerical values, you’d be kind enough to present your objective evidence for this claim, right? What calculation did you use to measure the variable “impact of potential”? What was the standard deviation? It was low in comparison to what? What would you have expected it to be otherwise?
Actually this is interesting so lets actually do it for real .
Lets have 2 scenarios using the theif example we used in this thread
1v1 exotic vs ascended lets start with ascended stun locked just once and regular full power attacks and no attack misses ever for simplicity sake.
since both our thieves went full bezerker they both got 10805 heath.
so exotic thief opens with stun attack does 2871 damage, ascended thief misses attack cause its stunned so exotic thief does another 2871 damage, ascended theif responds with 3108 damage, exotic does another 2871, ascended another 3108, exotic another 2871 ascended thief dead. Exotic still has 4589 heath
Lets now have the ascended thief land the first blow.
Ascended does 3108 dmg, exotic does 2871 stunning him, ascended looses turn he is stunned, exotic does 2871, ascended does 3108, exotic another 2871, ascended another 3108, exotic another 2871, ascended dead. exotic has 1481 health left this time.
So yeah mackdose is right a single stun can make a much larger difference then the gear.
Of course this is all ridiculous no fight would ever play this plainly but thats to show mackdose argument that stats only play a small part in a fight, skill is important too and makes a larger difference in fact. That being said this does show that exotic or ascended if both parties play exactly the same rotation but one of them manages to lands a stun that one will win irrespective of what armor s/he’s wearing.
There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage.
Nice straw man.
Of course it is, because he is right, but you have no good counter argument for it. Talking about everything that is possible in WvWvW proves that gear is not a deciding factor that can be proven, and since you have nothing to refute that you would rather just ignore it all together.
You do know what a straw man argument is, right? Because your post here indicates that you clearly do not.
Actually I do, I suspect that it is you that does not.
So then, tell me what the straw man argument was.
“The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.”
i’m not quite sure that i’m guilty of that
You are.
“There are too many things to account for in almost every WvW situation to conclude that the difference between victory and defeat solely came down to a gear stat advantage”
No one has argued, at any point, that the difference between victory and defeat in WvW came down solely to a gear stat advantage. The argument has always been that it’s an extra advantage that hurts the game, and should be removed.
How does it hurt the game no one has come up with a reason yet. All people said is it might have you loose a 1v1 fight which in terms of WvW means nothing. Loosing a fight cause you’re undergeared is undesirable but it alone doesnt effect the score of WvW. WvW isnt about winning fights.
Just going to post this here:
I have a few suggestions for making WvW a truly competitive element of the game:
[SUGGESTION]
Seperate WvW from PvE:
- Delete all PvE gear in WvW:
- One armour tier, and the choice of one free starter set [PER CHAR] of the stats you want. Gain new stats through playing WvW (badges).
- One weapon tier, and the choice of up to 4 free starter weapons [PER CHAR] of the stats you want. Gain new stats through player WvW (badges).
- Runes and sigils: ‘unlock’ through badges (one-time buy, eternal use after).
- Skills and traits: Accessible for free.
- Uplevels and max levels:
- Make everyone the same level and strength (no difference between uplevel and level 80).
- Everyone has same stat tier available from the start.
- Armour and weapon skins:
- All the armour skins you have in PvE can be stored in WvW locker and collected for a small fee (comparable to trait refunds).
- Any new skins can also be unlocked through badges if you don’t have them in PvE.
- Skins are account-bound, not soul-bound and available for unlimited use after unlocking.[SOLUTION]
1- Ascended gear: don’t bother about it anymore.
2- Alt-friendly.
3- Still provides a goal, but disables power creep.
4- Balance between players.
5- Class balance in WvW is now split off from PvE and can be monitored more easily.
(edited by Sirendor.1394)
So really, at the end of this all. The solution is to make WvWvW like sPvP and tPvP where it is completely segregated from PvE, maybe make it that you can convert PvE gear to WvWvW so you can keep you weapons and armour as skins (and therefore make everyone have to acquire it twice). To make it super balanced like sPvP and tPvP all runes that available in these formats will be included, no stats on gear, except for one amulet and one gem. The WvWvW rank system will now provide only titles – no points to spend on making you better or more efficient now, that would unbalance this whole scheme. In addition, you can’t get any passive benefit from wvwvw, so no crit success on crafting, no max health increases, etc, as that would be unbalancing. Bloodlust goes (I can see the cries of….oh? that’s joy? cool, one good thing) and now the battleground maps are all separate instances from each other that you can’t map hop around to (you have to enter the wvwvw mists neutral zone and choose a new battleground when you arrive – can’t have it too easy for the zerg to move now).
You know, as silly as this sounds, if they had of just done this in the first place they would just have a small minority of people complaining about no open world pvp and there is the possibility that wvwvw might not of been as massively popular as it is now and could of just gotten away with making the eternal battleground. Then they could of devoted resources to GvG, maybe even guild forts and what not.
I love slippery slopes, they allow the mind to run rampant.
It’s not important they have an advantage, it’s important that the rewards that they earned through playing the game aren’t taken away because someone that wants to be on equal footing without playing the game feels it’s unfair.
I’d be fine with everyone being scaled up to ascended.
So your whole argument has been about splitting hairs this entire time. Why on earth didn’t you just post that at the very start, and save yourself the time and trouble of all your other pointless arguments?
I don’t think any changes should be made in WvW at all, and I dislike the reasons given to justify player’s rewards being taken away.
I argued against the justifications.
And, as I just pointed out, your arguments against the justifications did nothing to refute them. All those arguments you made were pointless. So again, why did you waste your time splitting hairs, instead of just posting the compromise you’d be OK with?
Because their shouldn’t be a compromise. There’s no problem to fix. Just because someone says there’s a problem doesn’t mean there is one.
Of course there should be a compromise. You always have to make compromises in big games to keep people happy. No two players want exactly the same things. Thus, once you have your target market, you make the compromises you need to in order to keep as many of those players as possible. Also, just because someone says there’s not a problem doesn’t mean there isn’t one.
If someone says there’s a problem, they need to provide evidence supporting the claim.
Numbers on paper isn’t evidence.
Lol how old are you? Numbers on paper is exactly what evidence is, cold hard mathematical facts. Your experience on the matter means nothing.
Except your numbers are theory not practice.
That’s not evidence, that’s a hypothesis. My case study (general gameplay) does not support your hypothesis.
What are you talking about? Plenty of people have done the math, it’s not a theory.
The numbers on gear don’t mean anything if you don’t hit your target. The math doesn’t
give us a picture of what actually happens, only of would could possibly happen under very specific circumstances.That is irrelevant.
Put 2 Warriors of exact same skill and spec vs each other, the one with 20% more damage will win.
Don’t give me what IFs, that’s mathematical proof.
First of all its not 20% but 8% secondly how is it mathematically proven! if they fight exactly the same way and use exactly the same skills the warrior who lands the first attack will win irrespective of armor.
Just going to post this here:
I have a few suggestions for making WvW a truly competitive element of the game:
[SUGGESTION]
Seperate WvW from PvE:
- Delete all PvE gear in WvW:
- One armour tier, and the choice of one free starter set [PER CHAR] of the stats you want. Gain new stats through playing WvW (badges).
- One weapon tier, and the choice of up to 4 free starter weapons [PER CHAR] of the stats you want. Gain new stats through player WvW (badges).
- Runes and sigils: ‘unlock’ through badges (one-time buy, eternal use after).
Skills and traits: Accessible for free.
- Uplevels and max levels:
- Make everyone the same level and strength (no difference between uplevel and level 80).
- Everyone has same stat tier available from the start.
- Armour and weapon skins:
- All the armour skins you have in PvE can be stored in WvW locker and collected for a small fee (comparable to trait refunds).
- Any new skins can also be unlocked through badges if you don’t have them in PvE.
- Skins are account-bound, not soul-bound and available for unlimited use after unlocking.[SOLUTION]
1- Ascended gear: don’t bother about it anymore.
2- Alt-friendly.
3- Still provides a goal, but disables power creep.
4- Balance between players.
5- Class balance in WvW is now split off from PvE and can be monitored more easily.
you can’t have stats on gear – that would cause an imbalance. Also it should be like s/tPvP where you have access to the full runes and sigils and orbs – for free. In fact it is even better since that means they remove perplexity runes from the game, which is like topic number five (Warrior, Ascended, Berserker, Living World then Perplexity runes seems to be the order of complaints).
Dunno why people keep saying this, its a fallacy, food and oils are easily available via the TP.
So are legendaries and ascended mats.
No they aren’t because of the cost.
You’re dodging the main balance issue: level 400 foods are expensive
You can quite easily buy top level food and oils or near top level from the gold you earn in WvW. You can’t with the mats you require to make ascended items. Heck guilds on good servers will normally provide food trays.
You can’t get the mats required to make ascended items in WvW? If “having to go outside my chosen game mode for 15 minutes each day to do 3 dynamic events” is your only complaint, I don’t see that as anything but childish whining.
We should get rid of level 400 foods in wvw because crafting Cooking to 400 is too much of a grind.
Dunno why people keep saying this, its a fallacy, food and oils are easily available via the TP.
So are legendaries and ascended mats. You’re dodging the main balance issue: level 400 foods are expensive and for the large amount of players who barely have rare level gear they are out of reach.
You are creating a distinction without difference, since you’re into fallacies and all.
Way to intentionally ignore context. “Easily” in this case obviously means “cheap enough for most players to afford.”
Legendaries are not cheap. Ascended mats are not cheap. You can’t craft all ascended gear. Ignoring these differences just reveals the fact that you don’t care about the truth at all, but would rather just spout whatever nonsense you feel like.
Ascended mats are free, other than the reagent. Every item that goes into crafting Deldrimor Steel ingots is harvestable in wvw, for free.
And who are you to tell someone that legendaries are too expensive but Sweet and Spicy Butternut Squash Soup is cheap? You valuation of gold is not the only one.
Since it’s admitted that the complainers are in the minority, why would Anet make major changes to the game to appease the small, vocal minority?
That’s a very good question. Why did they try to appease the vocal minority of people who wanted vertical progression by adding ascended at all?
I doubt major decisions like that are made based on forum feedback alone. They probably also saw what people were doing in game after reaching level 80.
From my experiance the pattern of what happened at max level does support the thesis most people wanted vertical progression. What makes me say that ? well after reaching max level most people just spent their time farming Orr, they didnt go back to lower level zones, they didnt go trying to acquire the cosmetic sets . I dont know what those people did but arenanet knew, if what they did was buy more exotic sets it is understandable that arenanet thought most people were not interested in cosmetic only in VP based on that.
Thing is a lot of people here say they dont want VP but I am curious to know how many of them played in a way consistent with that. If you were one of those people who refused to leave level 80 zones at max level you might have sent the signal to arenanet that progression is all you care about.
People who keep defending ascended gear and say that it doesn’t make a difference CLEARLY don’t know what competitive PVP is and have probably never played it, or, if they did, they didn’t do it properly.
Because any serious pvp-oriented player doesn’t want to be forced to grind to have fun (since, as weird as it seems for this community, there are people who don’t like to grind) and doesn’t want disparity in fights.
Arguing that wvw “is not supposed to be fair” is the poorest argument anyone could ever climb to and really doesn’t even deserve to be answered to.
Thing is simple: you already have all the PvE crap you want, sPvP suck, just give something fun and immediate for pvpers to look forward to, just as it was advertised and as it was in the beginning. How kittening hard is that?
I haven’t played in 3 months now and i would much like to come back but not in this state. What WvW need is:
- no orb buff
- downscale ascended gear to exotic stats
- no applied fortitute bullkitten / rank stat bonus
- nerf perplexity runes
- balance classes at least a little bit as of now it’s quite ridiculous how bad balance is
That’s it. Mechanics will still suck, you’ll still have zergs and PvD and karma trains and all those poorly designed mechanics but at least people who want GOOD FIGHTS will be able to find them
I’m not really asking for the moon here, it’s just pretty basic stuff to put players on the same level.
sigil stacks and food buff are okey as they’re easily obtainable by everyone imho
And to add to this, players who were complaining about having done the endgame content already wanted more content not more vertical progression. That’s what players have always wanted. Vertical progression is far more of a stick than a carrot for most players.
I am at 1100hrs + and I still havent played all that the game has to offer. People who after a month said they did all the “endgame” content simply meant they wanted content that was at their level or higher… dont you think thats advocating for vertical progression in a way.
For all the people that claim the damage difference is only 5% and refuses to show how they come up with that number… I have made a thread just for you:
The damage difference is 10.3% which is not minimal or even close to your 5% you often spout. Go ahead and look it over. Please tell me if you see something wrong. But as of right now, the damage difference is 10.3% and the above linked thread is the evidence for it.
one question, why are you comparing critical damage rather then the actual damage?
If you go with regular damage the difference is actually 7.5%
You can’t get the mats required to make ascended items in WvW? If “having to go outside my chosen game mode for 15 minutes each day to do 3 dynamic events” is your only complaint, I don’t see that as anything but childish whining.
Not everyone likes to roleplay zerglings. Imagine that empyreal fragments were obtainable only in wvw and jumping puzzle. Wouldn’t you complain?
The fact is that no matter how you look at it, the guy wearing ascended has a statistical advantage over the the guy that is wearing exotic. Math does not lie! Sure there are many variables when it comes to WvW battles and there are player skill levels to take into account but an increase in stats always has an effect on the outcome of the battle. It might not be easily measurable among all the other imbalances in WvW but it does have an effect. Cause the math does not lie. To those of you saying that you get tons of kills from playing with an up leveled toon, good for you. I have never been beaten by an up level, EVER!! If you are lvl 80 wearing yellows I will crush you unless you are a very very good player. Makes we wonder what kind of baddies you are playing against. However, I don’t think Ascended should be removed from WvW, I think it should have never been added to the game to begin with but that is another topic all together.
I tend to think that there’s a limit to how imbalanced anything can be before adding any more imbalance won’t make much of a difference. WvW already has WvW ranks, food, zerg sizes, presence of organised WvW-centtric guilds, availability of siege, etc etc to screw over balance, adding 5% stat differences won’t change much.
This, right after a post detailing that the stat difference is 10.3%, not 5%. Epic fail.
The stat difference is between 5% – 10% give or take a bit here and there.
the 10.3% quoted is when using bezerker armor and only when you hit does a crit.
If you use a different armor set one that doesnt have power as primary your damage increase will by much less also with bezerker armor if you dont crit the increase is 7.5%
That 10.3% is the theoretical maximum of the maximum.
WvW ranks don’t give any advantge over other players in combat unless siege is involve.
Ironically siege are way more important then players. WvW is about capturing points and holding them. Siege are a much MUCH MUCH bigger factor in that then any one player’s survival. Yet we’re defending sieges but saying the small miniscule issue that barely has any bearing should go.
Seems to me people keep seeing WvW as some sort of player vs player combat system. It is not that, WvW is about capturing and holding points.
Edit: What I mean is the more stuff affects capturing and holding points the more it should be important when talking about issues with WvW. How can sieges be less important or something that can safely be dismissed when they’re orders of magnitute more important then players which is what ascended gear effects?
This, right after a post detailing that the stat difference is 10.3%, not 5%. Epic fail.
The stat difference is between 5% – 10% give or take a bit here and there.
the 10.3% quoted is when using bezerker armor and only when you hit does a crit.
If you use a different armor set one that doesnt have power as primary your damage increase will by much less also with bezerker armor if you dont crit the increase is 7.5%That 10.3% is the theoretical maximum of the maximum.
Agree.
10.3% was obtained when under perfect conditions and with a lot of assumptions. In WvW where the PTV armor is widely used, the damage increase should be way less!
/cheers
The only numbers that matter are the amount of opponents you face on the battlefield.
In terms of the weekly matchup, this is true. This is NOT true for individual skirmishes. Even zerg vs zerg where the initial burst matters. Having ascended gives you higher burst on contact or more vit/toughness to survive the enemy burst.
Ascended gear has better stats than Exotic gear, but there’s no advantage to the player who wears Ascended gear.
This is just…uh…I don’t even know how someone can think this way. Higher stats is an advantage. How is it not? You may argue there are more important things that stats, but that does not negate the fact that higher stats is an advantage.
At this point, I’m convinced those people are just pathological liars. Nothing else really explains it any more.
can you point to any of the lies you mention? cause there is a difference between disagreeing and lieing. a big difference
The point you’re missing is that there is no real advantage in WvW.
No, you’re ignoring the fact that there is. You have no point.
So back to the topic. Ascended gear has better stats than Exotic gear, but there’s no advantage to the player who wears Ascended gear. The only numbers that matter are the amount of opponents you face on the battlefield.
That has been factually proven false. Over. And over. And over. STOP LYING.
On paper, sure. What is actually happening in game, not even close.
You know what? I think I figured out where all these misunderstandings are coming from. When you’re in a lower ranked server, attributes might play more of a factor than skill or number, since WvW populations are lower on the bottom tiers. When you’re in high ranked battles (i.e. Tiers 1 or 2), player numbers play the biggest factor, since every day the Borderlands are queued.
So then it become a question of experience and opinion, rather than facts or maths.
That is exactly it. There are many more roamers and small parties on the lower tiers. The stat difference has a much greater effect in those cases. The ones complaining are not the ones running with the blob.
My argument all this time was based on the fact that when you have more players against you, all the stats in the world won’t save you from a stomping.
The problem would still be that the small difference in stats would apply only to 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2 situations, like how you see in SPvP. WvW is meant to be more of a real battle, where you have groups vs groups. So in my opinion, you can’t base the “remove Ascended from WvW” argument on only specific situations (i.e. roaming fights). You need to look at WvW as a whole. If your only arguing for that part of WvW, the other people who fight in groups will counter that argument, and we’re at a perpetual stalemate.
I never said it should be removed, I’m just saying that it really does make a difference for a lot of people. There have been many times when my party pushed off a group twice our size (only 1 or 2 up levels) by the skin of our teeth because we were more organized and better players. If they had ascended gear and we didn’t we would not have succeeded. If you take a look at WvW as a whole, the majority of the worlds are underpopulated cause the top 3 stole all the WvW guilds. Ascended affects more people than you think.
Dont you think that proves exactly the opposite? if you can win against a group twice yoursize it means that a 100% advantage in stat isnt enough to make a substantion difference. That even with 100% stat disadvantage you can win. Sure you could argue that a 10% stat difference might have made it so you couldnt win against a force twice your size but how would that be any different then coming across a group that is twice your size + 1 extra player for every 10 players?
Okey I didnt explain that well….
let me try again…
lets say your group was 10 people and you won against 20 people cause you’re good (which happens for sure, been in such fights myself)
You’re saying ascended gear is bad because it might mean next time you might not manage to win 10vs20 if the 20 all had ascended gear. fair enough but keep in mind next time with no ascended gear you might come up against 10vs22 which would mean the same thing.
I think ascended gear should be something that needs addressing only if the game was such that 10 could only win against 10 and only in such a case that if one group had ascended gear they’d nearly always get a guaranteed win. WvW isnt balanced like that. like you said 10 might win against 20 if they’re good enough but those same 10 might come up against 100 and loose (or win… happens as well)
“Evidence”
“From my experience”
“I don’t feel at a disadvantage”
vs
Objectively higher numerical values on the stats of items and weapon damage values
“Numbers on paper isn’t evidence”
¯\(°_o)/¯
Apologism. Apologism never changes.
Depends on what you’re arguing
objective higher numerical values are only proof ascended gear are better then exotic gear. It doesnt prove anything else.Numbers only mean stuff in relation with everything else in the whole big picture.
Also no one is apologizing about anything much less for anyone. We;re just disagreeing this is something that needs to be addressed thats all.
Same trait setup, same type of gear:
With ascended items instead of exotic, every single damage skill will do more damage on average.
Numbers don’t lie. One setup results in more damage. There you got your imbalance.
Wouldn’t be a problem if ascended items were easy to get for casuals, but that is not true.
What you just said is ascended gives you better damage then exotics. I havent seen anyone dispute that ever. But thats not what we’re talking about here. We are talking if that difference in damage causes a noticeable imbalance in WvW. Does that extra damage make any difference in WvW?
And keep in mind this is WvW to make a difference that damage not only has to have a tangable impact in give you a kill but that kill needs to give you a tangable impact to take over an object and keep it.
WvW ranks don’t give any advantge over other players in combat unless siege is involve.
Ironically siege are way more important then players. WvW is about capturing points and holding them. Siege are a much MUCH MUCH bigger factor in that then any one player’s survival. Yet we’re defending sieges but saying the small miniscule issue that barely has any bearing should go.
Seems to me people keep seeing WvW as some sort of player vs player combat system. It is not that, WvW is about capturing and holding points.
Edit: What I mean is the more stuff affects capturing and holding points the more it should be important when talking about issues with WvW. How can sieges be less important or something that can safely be dismissed when they’re orders of magnitute more important then players which is what ascended gear effects?
But siege doesn’t require ridiculous amounts of mats or a crafting level of 500 to make. They are very easily available to everyone.
Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”
is. not. the. point.
Even if it was only a 5% increase it wouldn't be excusable.
WvW is supposed to be for pvp-oriented players.
Leave the grind stuff to pve brainless farmers. We don't need any of that in pvp. There is not a single good point in having ascended in wvw.
The only point anyone has come up with to excuse ascended in wvw is that “the difference is not that bad”.
It is bad.
And there is no point in having them.
Not a single one.
So why keep them?
People we’re arguing here that because ascended gear does more damage then exotic it is creating an imbalance and thus should be removed. But consider the following
Berserker gear does more damage then Apothecary or any other prefix really so should only Berserker be allowed to avoid imbalance? Warrior does more damage then other classes so we remove other classes? Carrot Soufflé will give you the best extra damage so we remove all the other food?
A Carrot Soufflé + Superior Sharpening Stone will boost your damage far more then going from exotic to ascended will. And I am not just saying that… Ascended gear gives you 75 extra power over exotic gear while those 2 consumables will give 295 extra power. How many of you having so much trouble about the extra damage ascended gear brings make it a point to always keep up those buffs all the time? How many other players do? Then there is buffs 25 stacks of might will bring your power up 875!
What I am trying to get to is we’re always talking best case scenarios here which is fair enough but consider one thing a level 2 character in common armor with 25 stacks of might and those consumables will have a whopping 343 more power. I am not sure how the weapon scaling goes and cant access the game to check but i think it might even be possible that it would do more damage then someone in ascended gear with no might / consumables.
WvW ranks don’t give any advantge over other players in combat unless siege is involve.
Ironically siege are way more important then players. WvW is about capturing points and holding them. Siege are a much MUCH MUCH bigger factor in that then any one player’s survival. Yet we’re defending sieges but saying the small miniscule issue that barely has any bearing should go.
Seems to me people keep seeing WvW as some sort of player vs player combat system. It is not that, WvW is about capturing and holding points.
Edit: What I mean is the more stuff affects capturing and holding points the more it should be important when talking about issues with WvW. How can sieges be less important or something that can safely be dismissed when they’re orders of magnitute more important then players which is what ascended gear effects?
But siege doesn’t require ridiculous amounts of mats or a crafting level of 500 to make. They are very easily available to everyone.
Not doubting that but it doesn’t mean everyone has them all the time. Easy to obtain or not chances are one team or the other will be at a disadvantage or advantage in terms of sieges. Thats not that different then the situation with ascended because while yes ascended gear is way more difficult to get then siege no doubt, some people on your team will have ascended gear while others will not. Sometimes the scales with tip on your side sometimes on their side. But in any case it will never be perfectly in the middle.
is. not. the. point. Even if it was only a 5% increase it wouldn't be excusable. WvW is supposed to be for pvp-oriented players. Leave the grind stuff to pve brainless farmers. We don't need any of that in pvp. There is not a single good point in having ascended in wvw.The only point anyone has come up with to excuse ascended in wvw is that “the difference is not that bad”.
It is bad.
And there is no point in having them.
Not a single one.So why keep them?
the same thing works in reverse. Plenty of other things create an imbalance. food, ranks, buffs, levels, player numbers, siege, walls etc.. so why remove this one thing with or without it the imbalance will remain.
is. not. the. point. Even if it was only a 5% increase it wouldn't be excusable. WvW is supposed to be for pvp-oriented players. Leave the grind stuff to pve brainless farmers. We don't need any of that in pvp. There is not a single good point in having ascended in wvw.The only point anyone has come up with to excuse ascended in wvw is that “the difference is not that bad”.
It is bad.
And there is no point in having them.
Not a single one.So why keep them?
the same thing works in reverse. Plenty of other things create an imbalance. food, ranks, buffs, levels, player numbers, siege, walls etc.. so why remove this one thing with or without it the imbalance will remain.
Because everything else is easily obtainable by everyone.
levels don’t count, as proper pvp is done once you cap. While leveling you learn the game and your class and builds, and by level 80 you used to have time to get exotic gear you need. Food buffs and sigils’ stacks are easily obtainable by everyone, orb buff is stupid. Player numbers, siege and walls are simply there for one side and for the other.
Ascended gear is something you have to heavily unwillingly grind just to get on the same level as your opponents and there’s no avoiding the disadvantage.
If you don’t want to spend 30s to get food buffs the disadvantage is your fault, on the other side, not be willing to spend countless hours doing something you hate just because you don’t want to be kitten is a whole other story
is. not. the. point. Even if it was only a 5% increase it wouldn't be excusable. WvW is supposed to be for pvp-oriented players. Leave the grind stuff to pve brainless farmers. We don't need any of that in pvp. There is not a single good point in having ascended in wvw.The only point anyone has come up with to excuse ascended in wvw is that “the difference is not that bad”.
It is bad.
And there is no point in having them.
Not a single one.So why keep them?
the same thing works in reverse. Plenty of other things create an imbalance. food, ranks, buffs, levels, player numbers, siege, walls etc.. so why remove this one thing with or without it the imbalance will remain.
Because everything else is easily obtainable by everyone.
levels don’t count, as proper pvp is done once you cap. While leveling you learn the game and your class and builds, and by level 80 you used to have time to get exotic gear you need. Food buffs and sigils’ stacks are easily obtainable by everyone, orb buff is stupid. Player numbers, siege and walls are simply there for one side and for the other.
Ascended gear is something you have to heavily unwillingly grind just to get on the same level as your opponents and there’s no avoiding the disadvantage.If you don’t want to spend 30s to get food buffs the disadvantage is your fault, on the other side, not be willing to spend countless hours doing something you hate just because you don’t want to be kitten is a whole other story
I’m confused, why is your assumption that every opponent has full berzerker Ascended when your argument is that ascended gear isn’t readily available?
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
You can’t get the mats required to make ascended items in WvW? If “having to go outside my chosen game mode for 15 minutes each day to do 3 dynamic events” is your only complaint, I don’t see that as anything but childish whining.
Not everyone likes to roleplay zerglings. Imagine that empyreal fragments were obtainable only in wvw and jumping puzzle. Wouldn’t you complain?
I imagine a lot of people would complain, but not me. I would find the easiest, most efficient way to get whatever it is that I want and do it. Just like I do now already.
And the debate rages on!
I just don’t get why this WvW crowd is clamoring for WvW to be sPvP but large scale, because honestly that’s what is being described here. If you want to test your “skills” in duels or 1v2s, that’s what sPvP is for. I play it every day constantly and I’m always in 1v1s and 1v2s and have a blast. I can change my setup and weapons for free if I want and everyone has the same level of gear. That’s the whole point of sPvP!! It’s meant for those that want skirmishes, heck you get points for skirmishing for crying out loud!!
WvW was not intended to be a bunch of roaming 1v1 or 1v2s. It just wasn’t. I can’t imagine Anet wants to balance it around those specific scenarios when the idea of WvWvW is a large scale meta based on armies clashing. Everyone needs to just accept it for what it is.
Sure it is a disadvantage to thosewho insist that WvW is small scale skirmishes and that they literally can’t compete unless it is completely balanced on that level, but honestly, if all you’re doing in WvW is roaming around looking for small skirmishes, then you’re probably doing your server a disadvantage.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
And the debate rages on!
I just don’t get why this WvW crowd is clamoring for WvW to be sPvP but large scale, because honestly that’s what is being described here. If you want to test your “skills” in duels or 1v2s, that’s what sPvP is for. I play it every day constantly and I’m always in 1v1s and 1v2s and have a blast. I can change my setup and weapons for free if I want and everyone has the same level of gear. That’s the whole point of sPvP!! It’s meant for those that want skirmishes, heck you get points for skirmishing for crying out loud!!
WvW was not intended to be a bunch of roaming 1v1 or 1v2s. It just wasn’t. I can’t imagine Anet wants to balance it around those specific scenarios when the idea of WvWvW is a large scale meta based on armies clashing. Everyone needs to just accept it for what it is.
Sure it is a disadvantage to thosewho insist that WvW is small scale skirmishes and that they literally can’t compete unless it is completely balanced on that level, but honestly, if all you’re doing in WvW is roaming around looking for small skirmishes, then you’re probably doing your server a disadvantage.
The people who are in this thread clamoring for gear balance aren’t really the WvW crowd.
They’re the “anti-VP, Grindwars 2, ArenaNet lied and killed my parents” crowd.
Which makes it really hard to have a discussion as opposed to a screaming match.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
is. not. the. point. Even if it was only a 5% increase it wouldn't be excusable. WvW is supposed to be for pvp-oriented players. Leave the grind stuff to pve brainless farmers. We don't need any of that in pvp. There is not a single good point in having ascended in wvw.The only point anyone has come up with to excuse ascended in wvw is that “the difference is not that bad”.
It is bad.
And there is no point in having them.
Not a single one.So why keep them?
the same thing works in reverse. Plenty of other things create an imbalance. food, ranks, buffs, levels, player numbers, siege, walls etc.. so why remove this one thing with or without it the imbalance will remain.
Because everything else is easily obtainable by everyone.
levels don’t count, as proper pvp is done once you cap. While leveling you learn the game and your class and builds, and by level 80 you used to have time to get exotic gear you need. Food buffs and sigils’ stacks are easily obtainable by everyone, orb buff is stupid. Player numbers, siege and walls are simply there for one side and for the other.
Ascended gear is something you have to heavily unwillingly grind just to get on the same level as your opponents and there’s no avoiding the disadvantage.If you don’t want to spend 30s to get food buffs the disadvantage is your fault, on the other side, not be willing to spend countless hours doing something you hate just because you don’t want to be kitten is a whole other story
I’m confused, why is your assumption that every opponent has full berzerker Ascended when your argument is that ascended gear isn’t readily available?
I’ve never said anything like that. I’m just saying that in pvp there’s no point in having a superior tier of gear that is only obtainable by heavy farming and crafting. Why would you want it? Why would I want to spend hours in doing something that is not pvp-related just to have an advantage over my enemy?
And what is worse is why should I be forced to do it just NOT TO BE kitten against my enemy.
It’s not like you need it to do anything. It’s not like you need it to make your class work. The only thing it does is unbalance things even more. It doesn’t belong to pvp.
Hell there’s not even a point in having it in pve why the heck do you need it in pvp?
And since it’s so useless wouldn’t it simply be better to have everything scaled to exotic so that people feel like they have always the best shot when encountering someone? So that they can equip more characters easily? So that if you want to change build you don’t feel like shooting yourself in the face just thinking of what you have to go through?
Of course if you’re a pve player with a lot of time on hands and have nothing to do you don’t mind doing all the gring. Maybe you even enjoy it. But there’s a lot of people which hate grinding, that might not have so much time on hands and which like to confront themselves in good, fun pvp battles, and ascended gear is another big obstacle that adds to the many that are already there.
And the debate rages on!
I just don’t get why this WvW crowd is clamoring for WvW to be sPvP but large scale, because honestly that’s what is being described here. If you want to test your “skills” in duels or 1v2s, that’s what sPvP is for. I play it every day constantly and I’m always in 1v1s and 1v2s and have a blast. I can change my setup and weapons for free if I want and everyone has the same level of gear. That’s the whole point of sPvP!! It’s meant for those that want skirmishes, heck you get points for skirmishing for crying out loud!!
WvW was not intended to be a bunch of roaming 1v1 or 1v2s. It just wasn’t. I can’t imagine Anet wants to balance it around those specific scenarios when the idea of WvWvW is a large scale meta based on armies clashing. Everyone needs to just accept it for what it is.
Sure it is a disadvantage to thosewho insist that WvW is small scale skirmishes and that they literally can’t compete unless it is completely balanced on that level, but honestly, if all you’re doing in WvW is roaming around looking for small skirmishes, then you’re probably doing your server a disadvantage.
The people who are in this thread clamoring for gear balance aren’t really the WvW crowd.
They’re the “anti-VP, Grindwars 2, ArenaNet lied and killed my parents” crowd.
Which makes it really hard to have a discussion as opposed to a screaming match.
You know what, forget it mate. You are clearly right there. We’re not the wvw crowd.
But sadly, contrarily of what you might think, we aren’t the crybabies you claim we are. We are the people that would want to see proper pvp in wvw. Because that’s what wvw is. It’s a pvp area with objectives.
Sadly enough, just as you said, wvw is not for pvpers.
Is for pve carebears that don’t have a clue about how fun good pvp is. The wvw crowd is way more worried in taking doors down and make ranks and karma than in actually having good, fair, fun fights.
So i’m so sorry if i ruined that for you in trying to imagine how wvw could actually be about big fights and fair battles and what good pvp could bring to it.
Just keep running on those doors, i’m done in trying to see how all this could be improved. Since your “wvw crowd” doesn’t care about imbalance, about pvp, about anything that is not brainless objective flipping
is. not. the. point. Even if it was only a 5% increase it wouldn't be excusable. WvW is supposed to be for pvp-oriented players. Leave the grind stuff to pve brainless farmers. We don't need any of that in pvp. There is not a single good point in having ascended in wvw.The only point anyone has come up with to excuse ascended in wvw is that “the difference is not that bad”.
It is bad.
And there is no point in having them.
Not a single one.So why keep them?
the same thing works in reverse. Plenty of other things create an imbalance. food, ranks, buffs, levels, player numbers, siege, walls etc.. so why remove this one thing with or without it the imbalance will remain.
Because everything else is easily obtainable by everyone.
levels don’t count, as proper pvp is done once you cap. While leveling you learn the game and your class and builds, and by level 80 you used to have time to get exotic gear you need. Food buffs and sigils’ stacks are easily obtainable by everyone, orb buff is stupid. Player numbers, siege and walls are simply there for one side and for the other.
Ascended gear is something you have to heavily unwillingly grind just to get on the same level as your opponents and there’s no avoiding the disadvantage.If you don’t want to spend 30s to get food buffs the disadvantage is your fault, on the other side, not be willing to spend countless hours doing something you hate just because you don’t want to be kitten is a whole other story
I’m confused, why is your assumption that every opponent has full berzerker Ascended when your argument is that ascended gear isn’t readily available?
I’ve never said anything like that. I’m just saying that in pvp there’s no point in having a superior tier of gear that is only obtainable by heavy farming and crafting. Why would you want it? Why would I want to spend hours in doing something that is not pvp-related just to have an advantage over my enemy?
And what is worse is why should I be forced to do it just NOT TO BE kitten against my enemy.
It’s not like you need it to do anything. It’s not like you need it to make your class work. The only thing it does is unbalance things even more. It doesn’t belong to pvp.
Hell there’s not even a point in having it in pve why the heck do you need it in pvp?And since it’s so useless wouldn’t it simply be better to have everything scaled to exotic so that people feel like they have always the best shot when encountering someone? So that they can equip more characters easily? So that if you want to change build you don’t feel like shooting yourself in the face just thinking of what you have to go through?
I was referring to this line:
(snip) just to get on the same level as your opponents and there’s no avoiding the disadvantage.
Which you continue to imply by saying you need to grind stuff you don’t want to do just to be even with your opponent.
So you are assuming that you opponent has full ascended.
Of course if you’re a pve player with a lot of time on hands and have nothing to do you don’t mind doing all the gring. Maybe you even enjoy it. But there’s a lot of people which hate grinding, that might not have so much time on hands and which like to confront themselves in good, fun pvp battles, and ascended gear is another big obstacle that adds to the many that are already there.
I don’t have time to grind. I’m still at 337 hours played, so I’m one of the casuals that everyone refers to as being left out in the cold.
Thing is, the game’s design makes BiS gear optional. I can travel around in almost full exotics and compete in every part of the game and get rewarded.
Everyone keeps circling back to “but you’re not as good as other people” as if that’s supposed to coax me into keeping up with the Joneses.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
And the debate rages on!
I just don’t get why this WvW crowd is clamoring for WvW to be sPvP but large scale, because honestly that’s what is being described here. If you want to test your “skills” in duels or 1v2s, that’s what sPvP is for. I play it every day constantly and I’m always in 1v1s and 1v2s and have a blast. I can change my setup and weapons for free if I want and everyone has the same level of gear. That’s the whole point of sPvP!! It’s meant for those that want skirmishes, heck you get points for skirmishing for crying out loud!!
WvW was not intended to be a bunch of roaming 1v1 or 1v2s. It just wasn’t. I can’t imagine Anet wants to balance it around those specific scenarios when the idea of WvWvW is a large scale meta based on armies clashing. Everyone needs to just accept it for what it is.
Sure it is a disadvantage to thosewho insist that WvW is small scale skirmishes and that they literally can’t compete unless it is completely balanced on that level, but honestly, if all you’re doing in WvW is roaming around looking for small skirmishes, then you’re probably doing your server a disadvantage.
The people who are in this thread clamoring for gear balance aren’t really the WvW crowd.
They’re the “anti-VP, Grindwars 2, ArenaNet lied and killed my parents” crowd.
Which makes it really hard to have a discussion as opposed to a screaming match.
You know what, forget it mate. You are clearly right there. We’re not the wvw crowd.
But sadly, contrarily of what you might think, we aren’t the crybabies you claim we are. We are the people that would want to see proper pvp in wvw. Because that’s what wvw is. It’s a pvp area with objectives.Sadly enough, just as you said, wvw is not for pvpers.
Is for pve carebears that don’t have a clue about how fun good pvp is. The wvw crowd is way more worried in taking doors down and make ranks and karma than in actually having good, fair, fun fights.So i’m so sorry if i ruined that for you in trying to imagine how wvw could actually be about big fights and fair battles and what good pvp could bring to it.
Just keep running on those doors, i’m done in trying to see how all this could be improved. Since your “wvw crowd” doesn’t care about imbalance, about pvp, about anything that is not brainless objective flipping
The mode you want is SPVP. why are you in wvw forums. >.>
I was referring to this line:
(snip) just to get on the same level as your opponents and there’s no avoiding the disadvantage.
Which you continue to imply by saying you need to grind stuff you don’t want to do just to be even with your opponent.
So you are assuming that you opponent has full ascended.
Of course if you’re a pve player with a lot of time on hands and have nothing to do you don’t mind doing all the gring. Maybe you even enjoy it. But there’s a lot of people which hate grinding, that might not have so much time on hands and which like to confront themselves in good, fun pvp battles, and ascended gear is another big obstacle that adds to the many that are already there.
I don’t have time to grind. I’m still at 337 hours played, so I’m one of the casuals that everyone refers to as being left out in the cold.
Thing is, the game’s design makes BiS gear optional. I can travel around in almost full exotics and compete in every part of the game and get rewarded.
Everyone keeps circling back to “but you’re not as good as other people” as if that’s supposed to coax me into keeping up with the Joneses.
Not everyone, but some of them will be.
You don’t sound like one who’s much into pvp. I’m not even going to repete myself anymore. We all came to the conclusion that wvw is not for pvpers but for pvers that want something different to do from time to time. Probably just like you, as i’m not going as far as to state it, but you really don’t sound like you’re that much into pvp.
Having agreed on that, i’m throwing my towel.
Just remember that this way you’re saying that wvw is fine with the following issues:
- no balance fights
- no need to balance anything as numbers will be uneven anyways
- don’t worry about throwing broken things (ie perplexity runes) as in group fights you’ll get them both on one side and on the other
- PvP is a minor thing, the real important stuff are the PvD karma trains / objective flipping
- don’t worry about a kitten cause it’s always uneven anyways.
- competitive guilds and pvpers can go kitten themselves
- throw in as much gear trandmill as you want cause there will always be someone that won’t have better gear than you
- skill doesn’t matter cause it’s not about pvp but zerg numbers
I do agree this is not the game for me, sorry again if i wasted your time. I was just hoping that I could find a slice of this game that would welcome some old-stamp pvpers (what an eghoistical prick uh?)
The title is asking for the removal of ascended gear, that has to be justified, the justification being given is its creates imbalance. Is that justification valid? you can only know by looking at the whole picture. Example. I want a raise, whats my justification? I am not paid enough. I cannot prove that I am not being paid enough simply on the bases that I feel I am not being paid enough if that were the case everyone would get raises all the time cause I never really met anyone who felt they’re paid enough. What generally happens instead in that case is your wage is compared to the rest of the industry for that of people in the same position. If its true then you’ll get your raise if you’re infact paid more then the average then you dont really have a bases for your I am not paid enough argument. Same here if imbalance is your concern if you want action about it you have to prove two things. 1. That imbalance is actually damaging to the game 2. a good reason why that imbalance should be addressed through ascended gear. Its already hard to prove 1 but even if you did why should they address one of the smallest causes of imbalance rather then the other large ones?
Because it’s relatively easy to correct?
Nothing that you’ve stated changes the fact that you love to distract from the topic at hand – which is what a red herring is. We’re talking about one element about WvW, and you try and deflect the arguments by going “GUYS LOOK HERE THIS OTHER STUFF IS IMBA AND IMPORTANT AND STUFF” and that doesn’t change any of our arguments. It is dishonest and little more than a diversion.
WELL THE UNIVERSE IS CONNECTED EVERYTHING CHANGES EVERYTHING AND GEAR IS LIKE A DROP IN THE OCEAN
Ok.
I am not moving anything you are Dota isnt anything close like WvW the same rules dont apply to both games. Also like I already explained +1 to any stat in dota is not going to put you at par with 2 enemies ergo if you manage to kill 1 of them or you manage to escape the encounter, stats was not what got the job done it was just a minor help. Not only that but that in itself is not an imbalance because 2 ganging up on you means two of you team are ganging up on 1 of theirs. Balance. Just to avoid going back or forth if you plan to rebut that by pointing out it could be that their team killed one of ours before and thus there is no balance being achieved by 2 of them ganging up on one of you then keep in mind that such unbalance is the designed death penality. You’re being punished for failure essentially.
You. Are. Wrong. 100% wrong. You could not be more wrong than you are right now.
You are moving the goalpost because first you try and tell me that small stats don’t matter in DOTA, which is wrong, regardless of opponents and, in fact, it’s wrong in SC2, in any fighting game ever, and I have good and well known players saying you are wrong in my favor, and then you try and tell me that DOTA isn’t WvW so this example that you tried to redirect by telling me that it was wrong isn’t valid for no reason.
More balance means nothing until you achieve balance.
Well, I guess if you say it, it’s true.
Oh, wait, no it isn’t.
You guys read it right here, making things more balanced does not mean they are more balanced because I guess there are other unbalanced stuffs in still?
Doesn’t even know what apologism is or understand math and somehow I’m supposed to believe these balance philosophies.
(edited by TainoFuerte.8136)
is. not. the. point. Even if it was only a 5% increase it wouldn't be excusable. WvW is supposed to be for pvp-oriented players. Leave the grind stuff to pve brainless farmers. We don't need any of that in pvp. There is not a single good point in having ascended in wvw.The only point anyone has come up with to excuse ascended in wvw is that “the difference is not that bad”.
It is bad.
And there is no point in having them.
Not a single one.So why keep them?
the same thing works in reverse. Plenty of other things create an imbalance. food, ranks, buffs, levels, player numbers, siege, walls etc.. so why remove this one thing with or without it the imbalance will remain.
Because everything else is easily obtainable by everyone.
levels don’t count, as proper pvp is done once you cap. While leveling you learn the game and your class and builds, and by level 80 you used to have time to get exotic gear you need. Food buffs and sigils’ stacks are easily obtainable by everyone, orb buff is stupid. Player numbers, siege and walls are simply there for one side and for the other.
Ascended gear is something you have to heavily unwillingly grind just to get on the same level as your opponents and there’s no avoiding the disadvantage.If you don’t want to spend 30s to get food buffs the disadvantage is your fault, on the other side, not be willing to spend countless hours doing something you hate just because you don’t want to be kitten is a whole other story
I bet it takes longer to level a character from 1 to 80 then to craft an ascended weapon. Never mind ascended trinkets which will only require about 10 hours of your time a piece. So I dont think its fair to dismiss it with a notion such as Proper PvP doesnt start until you get at max level. Would you be happy if someone told you proper pvp doesnt start until you full gear up in BiS? It starts when you start taking part in it. Consumble buffs are easy to get true but how many do actually take them? I bet not many. Player number, sieges, walls etc… are there for both sides true but so is ascended gear. I mean you may find it grindy and decide to skip it. Some on your side will get it and like wise on the other servers some will go for it others will not. Isnt that the same thing as say player numbers?
I bet it takes longer to level a character from 1 to 80 then to craft an ascended weapon. Never mind ascended trinkets which will only require about 10 hours of your time a piece. So I dont think its fair to dismiss it with a notion such as Proper PvP doesnt start until you get at max level. Would you be happy if someone told you proper pvp doesnt start until you full gear up in BiS? It starts when you start taking part in it. Consumble buffs are easy to get true but how many do actually take them? I bet not many. Player number, sieges, walls etc… are there for both sides true but so is ascended gear. I mean you may find it grindy and decide to skip it. Some on your side will get it and like wise on the other servers some will go for it others will not. Isnt that the same thing as say player numbers?
Again, you clearly don’t seem to have a clue about what high level pvp is so i’m not going to bother answering anymore.
I’ll agree with you again that wvw is then not about pvp but about giving pvers something else to do.
But don’t come here and say it’s a good pvp feature because that’s way out of line, and sorry for trying to imagine it better, since every criticism to any aspect is useless as the mentality is “WvW is unfair anyway, so don’t bother fix anything”.
Not quite sure how far that will take it though tbh.
(edited by Delta Blues.8507)
I tend to agree. It isn’t that getting ascended is particularly hard but it forces more PvE than most casual PvPers (I’ll include wvwvw in here too) ever wanted.
The game is certainly pandering a bit to the PvE crowd when I really thought this game was going to be more player v player combat oriented.
WvWvW should use sPvP characters. Go from the Mists straight to WvW. Same gear. Same ability to change your spec in the Mists then go out.
You can make enough gold in WvWvW to afford all the siege plans you need.
PvE should be as removed as possible from the rest of the game IMHO.