Guild Wars 2

Forum bug!! Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuu……….

misterdevious.6482:

People keep reiterating their desire for “manual upgrades.” Ugh.

The “schmucks” who would go around popping all the manual upgrades people keep asking for are likely the same guys who are currently doing all the jobs on the map when no one else is around… flipping camps, sentries, shrines (usually by himself), sometimes flipping towers (also by himself if need be), killing roamers, doing the oasis event (solo if need be), and repairing all the gates that have been sitting there damaged for hours because no one else bothered.

Being one of the head “schmucks” (shakes fist @ you) I’d like manual upgrading and more building choices. Expressing a WP was far more risky and fun than this insta WP. Watching a timer click down or a Yak counter for auto upgrades is equally dull.

Here’s a cute lil video of a scout that I thought of. This basically doesn’t exist in the current design. Escorting Yaks for linear upgrading paths wouldn’t bring joy to players like this. https://youtu.be/dlfUTwQ5sdg

WvW was not, is not, and shouldn’t be just about fighting. Worlds need a diversity of roles to make it inclusive and interesting.

Entenkommando.5208:

zhonnika.1784:

How does the yak/upgrade change work in regards to guilds having (seemingly) unlimited supply drops via guild upgrades?

A wild forum specialist appears >.<

LMFAO!! I was just about to type the same thing.

Where did this zhonnika.1784 come from?! Post history shows they are a WvW player who most likely left the forums due to non-communication from the devs, and only comes back every now and again. Or only started to repost cos they were made fsp.

Zachary Stiers.1879:

The rally and resurrection rules are WvW specific and only apply to players.

Could I please convince you to apply the resurrection rules to PvE? It would only be an improvement to the game.
Scenario 1) You’re fighting random trash and die, it will be easy for a resurrecting person to either:
1) ignore the trash and ress your dead body. Beginning from out of combat and then once they’re put into combat, continue to ress the downed and continue to ignore the trash
2) kill the trash quickly and then ress your dead body without problem
Scenario 2) You’re at a world boss and you die.
You should waypoint. The only reason people don’t waypoint is because they’re lazy and other people will ress them. If other people can’t ress them they’ll waypoint and the problem will go away.
Scenario 3) You’re in a small man instance (dungeons/fractals)
In this situation, the loss of 1 person’s dps isn’t often enough to cause the fight to fail. If the group fails to get you up when you’re downed, they’re typically just going to let you be dead and finish the fight without you. The only exception to this would be the Mai Trin fight where people die during cannon phases and get resurrected afterwards. To be fair, if this is a concern, simply enable dead resurrection for instanced (non-raid) content. Obviously you have the technology since you’d have this resurrection rule applied in raids/WvW but not open world PvE…
Scenario 4) You’re in a raid.
No dead ressing. I don’t know why this is not everywhere.
Scenario 5) You’re afk and die.
See scenario 1.

I honestly cannot see any reason other than Mai Trin why this shouldn’t be a PvE thing too. The QoL it would bring to Tequatl and triple trouble would be immeasurable. So I ask once more, please consider adding it to PvE or at least open world PvE.

misterdevious.6482:

There’s an awful lot that already needs to be done and not nearly enough people to do it… why does anyone still think we need to assign a “manual upgrade button pushing job” on top of all this?

Because people want options and they want control. Not everyone do, sure – many like being mindless zerglings. But this is the very definition of depth in a game. Why do you think Starcraft 2 didnt go the route of automatic building and unit generation? Surely people want to focus on fighting!

Buy Some Apples.6390:

Entenkommando.5208:

zhonnika.1784:

How does the yak/upgrade change work in regards to guilds having (seemingly) unlimited supply drops via guild upgrades?

A wild forum specialist appears >.<

LMFAO!! I was just about to type the same thing.

Where did this zhonnika.1784 come from?! Post history shows they are a WvW player who most likely left the forums due to non-communication from the devs, and only comes back every now and again. Or only started to repost cos they were made fsp.

Give her a break, she has to deal with me daily. That would make anyone’s head spin She may be on the quiet side and that is only because she’s extremely active in WvW. Still watches/reads everything.

DeWolfe.2174:

Forum bug!! Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuu……….

Being one of the head “schmucks” (shakes fist @ you) I’d like manual upgrading and more building choices. Expressing a WP was far more risky and fun than this insta WP. Watching a timer click down or a Yak counter for auto upgrades is equally dull.

Here’s a cute lil video of a scout that I thought of. This basically doesn’t exist in the current design. Escorting Yaks for linear upgrading paths wouldn’t bring joy to players like this. https://youtu.be/dlfUTwQ5sdg

WvW was not, is not, and shouldn’t be just about fighting. Worlds need a diversity of roles to make it inclusive and interesting.

The “selfless few” are the people who do the things that need doing for little reward or at a negative cost to themselves. They aren’t schmucks.

Tiered upgrades removed frustrations and strategic choices. Free upgrades removed the burden of cost that fell too heavily on these selfless few… but also removed the need to prioritize. Automatic upgrades that didn’t need yaks removed the need for responsibility and vigilance. Structure upgrades require nothing now, and there is nothing the enemy can do to prevent them. All the strategic choices got beefed up and moved up to the guild upgrade category.

When I see a suggestion that a “human hand” should be required to start the next structure upgrade, I assume that person isn’t volunteering his own hand 24/7. He’s assuming some “schmuck” will do it. Without the need to prioritize… without the ability to make strategic choices… without burden of cost… without the risk of frustration… the one word left to describe running around the map to trigger the next upgrade… is responsibility. How do you describe a responsibility that is pointless, boring, unrewarding and unfulfilling? That’s busy work: work assigned for the sake of looking or keeping busy. The selfless few would do it if it needed to be done, but it is really beneath them.

Gaile Gray.6029:

A message from the World vs World Team:

Before the holiday season is fully upon us we wanted to give you all a sneak peek of some changes that are coming to WvW. Before we jump into the changes, we just want to make it very clear that the changes you’ll read about below are not a part of the big World vs World update that we’ve previously mentioned. This update is the first of what we hope are more regular updates to the existing core of World vs. World. We are looking forward to sharing the details of the bigger World vs World project with you in the future, but we’re not quite ready yet.

And now for that sneak peek:

• Objectives upgrades will no longer be automatic based on time. They will upgrade based on dolyaks that reach them. Smaller groups can now prevent an objective from upgrading by preventing dolyaks from reaching that objective.
• Supply cost for all catapults are being reduced by ten supply. The layout of the Desert Borderlands map has increased the number of catapults required to take some objectives. We agree with your feedback that also increasing the cost of catapults pushed the balance too far towards defense so we are tuning that more towards offense.
• Points per kill will be turned on and kept on. This is to more directly recognize the contribution that fighting other players adds to the success of the world.
• The number of players who can rally off a single kill has been reduced from five to one. Players will also no longer be able to revive defeated players while in combat. You still will be able to revive downed players while in combat. Both of these changes are designed to help fights resolve and to give smaller, more skilled groups a better chance against larger groups.

Please let us know what you think of these changes. We’re going to hold off on picking a release date until we have a chance to review your feedback, but we’d like to target early 2016. So please add your feedback about these proposals to this thread.

We also wanted to express our thanks to Reyana and the commanders she has been talking with in her World vs World Commander Interview series. Reyana is a dedicated member of the WvW community and a WvW streamer. She has brought together a diverse group of community leaders to constructively share different perspectives on how they play with their guilds, and our team has taken a lot of the commanders’ feedback to heart. Reyana has put a lot of effort into organizing these interviews and we want everyone to know that the efforts that she and the commanders made have been greatly appreciated.

Have a very Happy Holiday!

If any of the “changes” are about taking away individual servers like you did with the megaserver, you will be dooming WvW to ETOM mediocrity.

We have begged for better changes and allowing all worlds to fight one another no matter how many worlds that “equals” – could be five versus one.

What could make a huge difference is the fact that health points before death are far too little to show any skill even in most 1v1 fights.

Raise the life of all players and pets and watch skills start to shine.

Really good updates there. Tho i wish anet gives more incentives for us to jump into wvw. The current long term goal is locked away in pve. I used to be able to craft 2 lgendaries from 2k hours in wvw. Now i pretty much have to invest most of my time in pve if i want the new legendary

good changes

reason i like this game and its devs they always trying to rework or update stuff they not just let old things rot like in the other 32546272 MMOs out there

Remove tick Points only give Points for capping, defending, and upgrading buildings. That way it mater the least with coverage, if you have no enemy you cant gain any points.

DeWolfe.2174:

Give her a break, she has to deal with me daily. That would make anyone’s head spin She may be on the quiet side and that is only because she’s extremely active in WvW. Still watches/reads everything.

I’m extremely active in WvW as well. I play a few hours in EU primetime, and when my guild ends it’s raid, I pop onto my NA account and join in the WvW raids there.

And yet I still come here to post my views. And yes I have a job :P
But anyway, the real complaint is that after asking for a new fsp, we didnt hear anything for over a month, then the thread disappeared when we asked, and now no mention of them assigning the new fsp.

I stopped reading all the “thanks for listening” notes… because although this is a little step in the right direction ( carrot dangling at best to me ), it’s nowhere near close to responding to what people are really saying. I used to spend 95% of my time in WvW and now it’s about 5% at best. These changes won’t pull me back in, nor will they benefit small groups really since now they won’t be able to rez their own dead against a bigger group and so on. Bottom line is that this is a straw that has been thrown at a haystack of requests ( to me ). As it is and will be when these small changes are implemented, I will continue to pound the HoT areas and keep hoping that maybe even HALF things people are saying will be responded to.

Objectives upgrades will no longer be automatic based on time. They will upgrade based on dolyaks that reach them. – Yes!

Supply cost for all catapults are being reduced by ten supply. – Yes!

Points per kill will be turned on and kept on. – Yes!

The number of players who can rally off a single kill has been reduced from five to one. Players will also no longer be able to revive defeated players while in combat. – Better but would still prefer rally to go away completely and defeated players forced to port

In regards to some skills that resurrect:

Sometimes downs are bursted down faster than the skill can activate.

Think the guardian signet for rez is somewhere around 3-4 seconds to activate and it can be interrupted?

The opportunity to use skills that resurrect is very rare in a fight, maybe decrease activation time or increase toughness of downed characters.

TL;DR – Re-evaluate use of Resurrect-like skills to make them useful.

misterdevious.6482:

DeWolfe.2174:

Forum bug!! Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuu……….

Being one of the head “schmucks” (shakes fist @ you) I’d like manual upgrading and more building choices. Expressing a WP was far more risky and fun than this insta WP. Watching a timer click down or a Yak counter for auto upgrades is equally dull.

Here’s a cute lil video of a scout that I thought of. This basically doesn’t exist in the current design. Escorting Yaks for linear upgrading paths wouldn’t bring joy to players like this. https://youtu.be/dlfUTwQ5sdg

WvW was not, is not, and shouldn’t be just about fighting. Worlds need a diversity of roles to make it inclusive and interesting.

The “selfless few” are the people who do the things that need doing for little reward or at a negative cost to themselves. They aren’t schmucks.

Tiered upgrades removed frustrations and strategic choices. Free upgrades removed the burden of cost that fell too heavily on these selfless few… but also removed the need to prioritize. Automatic upgrades that didn’t need yaks removed the need for responsibility and vigilance. Structure upgrades require nothing now, and there is nothing the enemy can do to prevent them. All the strategic choices got beefed up and moved up to the guild upgrade category.

When I see a suggestion that a “human hand” should be required to start the next structure upgrade, I assume that person isn’t volunteering his own hand 24/7. He’s assuming some “schmuck” will do it. Without the need to prioritize… without the ability to make strategic choices… without burden of cost… without the risk of frustration… the one word left to describe running around the map to trigger the next upgrade… is responsibility. How do you describe a responsibility that is pointless, boring, unrewarding and unfulfilling? That’s busy work: work assigned for the sake of looking or keeping busy. The selfless few would do it if it needed to be done, but it is really beneath them.

Exactly. Those that want there to be some button someone has to run over and press either want to bring back busy work or somehow think that there won’t be someone who’s on in the middle of the night doing the upgrades anyway.

We have sentries and tower radars specifically to reduce the busy work so that people can get to the fighting. That’s what so many people care about, right?

Making the upgrades depend on yaks instead of automatic is a great compromise, because now getting and denying upgrades depends on fighting.

This is an improvement imo

Straegen.2938:

Objectives upgrades will no longer be automatic based on time. They will upgrade based on dolyaks that reach them. – Yes!

Supply cost for all catapults are being reduced by ten supply. – Yes!

Points per kill will be turned on and kept on. – Yes!

The number of players who can rally off a single kill has been reduced from five to one. Players will also no longer be able to revive defeated players while in combat. – Better but would still prefer rally to go away completely and defeated players forced to port

Supply cost for guild catas used to be 25… so that will bring them down to 40 which is still 15 above what it used to be… meh

very good changes 9/10

Good package of changes. The yak thing especially is exactly where upgrades needed to be, and makes camps (or, alternately, supply drops) important.

Not sure how I feel about kill points TBH. On the one hand I feel like kills shouldn’t effect score as score should be about objectives. On the other hand, the rez changes should keep field fighting from turning in to a morass of people doing nothing but trading wipes so it might be fine. Normally my fear about kill points is having a WvW that devolves in to people standing in a field camping outside a keep WP to farm kills in stead of taking the keep. However, the rez changes make it highly problematic to do something like that on the enemy’s doorstep, so objectives give a significant hom field advantage, and thus is may even out.

It won’t, however, keep people from doing stupid anti-WvW stuff like GvG in a borderland while all their objectives are taken by roamers, but then again nothing will until you give the GvGers a proper place with proper rewards to play mass team deathmatch in stead of sandbox spaces with no rewards.

I don’t wish to derail this thread, but since I was addressed specifically, I’m not actually a wvw forum specialist, and haven’t been since early October. They just haven’t fixed my forum title yet

To keep this on topic, I say HELL NO to manual upgrades in any form. Too much abuse, too many people who don’t understand upgrade order, too many ways that it can and has gone wrong. Auto upgrades are fine with the change. I do not wish to go back to the days of someone starting fortify before anything else because they clicked wrong or just wanted to keep you from having anything else. Sorry, no.

zhonnika.1784:

To keep this on topic, I say HELL NO to manual upgrades in any form. Too much abuse, too many people who don’t understand upgrade order, too many ways that it can and has gone wrong. Auto upgrades are fine with the change. I do not wish to go back to the days of someone starting fortify before anything else because they clicked wrong or just wanted to keep you from having anything else. Sorry, no.

Manual upgrades on the current system would obviously just be starting each tier by telling the lord to start upgrading it. I fail to see how that can be abused.

Best way to do it however would be a falling tree layout, with some choices in each tier of upgrade. Subtle enough not to be end of the world if the “wrong” one is chosen, but enough to make the keep feel a little designed by players.

zhonnika.1784:

I don’t wish to derail this thread, but since I was addressed specifically, I’m not actually a wvw forum specialist, and haven’t been since early October. They just haven’t fixed my forum title yet

To keep this on topic, I say HELL NO to manual upgrades in any form. Too much abuse, too many people who don’t understand upgrade order, too many ways that it can and has gone wrong. Auto upgrades are fine with the change. I do not wish to go back to the days of someone starting fortify before anything else because they clicked wrong or just wanted to keep you from having anything else. Sorry, no.

Manual upgrading for the camps, keeps, and towers would not be able to be abused. It would be a simple change that would require a player to manually activate available upgrades, rather than having them automatically activate when available as they are now. They would be the same upgrades that happen now, only the structure would sit at the “upgrades ready to activate” state until a player essentially pushes the button.

Tspatula.9086:

zhonnika.1784:

I don’t wish to derail this thread, but since I was addressed specifically, I’m not actually a wvw forum specialist, and haven’t been since early October. They just haven’t fixed my forum title yet

To keep this on topic, I say HELL NO to manual upgrades in any form. Too much abuse, too many people who don’t understand upgrade order, too many ways that it can and has gone wrong. Auto upgrades are fine with the change. I do not wish to go back to the days of someone starting fortify before anything else because they clicked wrong or just wanted to keep you from having anything else. Sorry, no.

Manual upgrading for the camps, keeps, and towers would not be able to be abused. It would be a simple change that would require a player to manually activate available upgrades, rather than having them automatically activate when available as they are now. They would be the same upgrades that happen now, only the structure would sit at the “upgrades ready to activate” state until a player essentially pushes the button.

That sounds like pointless busywork.

There’s nothing wrong with the upgrades autmatically queing as long as the enemy can actively disrupt the yaks. The problem with the atuo upgrades wasn’t that they upgraded when nobody was watching. it was that they made yaks pointless.

Requiring someone to go to the objective and click a button adds nothing to the game, unless you’re under the assumption that the enemy is going to bother camping the objective to wait for that one guy that’s going to run over and click it when they should be focusing on disrupting yaks.

If enough yak runs ahve already made it through for the objective to upgrade, the enemy has already failed. Making someone click a button doesn’t magically create fights. It just makes it easier to PvDoor, and creates less tanky objectives during off hours, during times they should be tankier to discourage easy night capping and encourage defense even at off hours.

zhonnika.1784:

To keep this on topic, I say HELL NO to manual upgrades in any form. Too much abuse, too many people who don’t understand upgrade order, too many ways that it can and has gone wrong. Auto upgrades are fine with the change. I do not wish to go back to the days of someone starting fortify before anything else because they clicked wrong or just wanted to keep you from having anything else. Sorry, no.

You may not like manual upgrades but most players do. Which is more important a system that makes it easy and prevents players mistakes that produces empty WVW maps or a system that that you actually have to learn and pay attention to what your doing and produces more players on the map? It’s about more than the best way to get a structure upgraded, its about getting players participating in WVW so it’s not a ghost town with players kittening on almost every thread in the forum.

You could do things like requiring only members of a claimed structure to upgrade it but I would be against that also because it prevents new people in WVW from participating. I really don’t care if they implement little green men from mars to come down and do the upgrades if the end result brings people into WVW. Every change to WVW needs to first and foremost be something to bring more players into WVW, after that goal has been met then all this other petty stuff can be worked out. WVW is about real people fighting real people but if there is barely any people on the map what have we got?

Oleman – SBI

PopeUrban.2578:

Tspatula.9086:

zhonnika.1784:

I don’t wish to derail this thread, but since I was addressed specifically, I’m not actually a wvw forum specialist, and haven’t been since early October. They just haven’t fixed my forum title yet

To keep this on topic, I say HELL NO to manual upgrades in any form. Too much abuse, too many people who don’t understand upgrade order, too many ways that it can and has gone wrong. Auto upgrades are fine with the change. I do not wish to go back to the days of someone starting fortify before anything else because they clicked wrong or just wanted to keep you from having anything else. Sorry, no.

Manual upgrading for the camps, keeps, and towers would not be able to be abused. It would be a simple change that would require a player to manually activate available upgrades, rather than having them automatically activate when available as they are now. They would be the same upgrades that happen now, only the structure would sit at the “upgrades ready to activate” state until a player essentially pushes the button.

That sounds like pointless busywork.

There’s nothing wrong with the upgrades autmatically queing as long as the enemy can actively disrupt the yaks. The problem with the atuo upgrades wasn’t that they upgraded when nobody was watching. it was that they made yaks pointless.

Requiring someone to go to the objective and click a button adds nothing to the game, unless you’re under the assumption that the enemy is going to bother camping the objective to wait for that one guy that’s going to run over and click it when they should be focusing on disrupting yaks.

If enough yak runs ahve already made it through for the objective to upgrade, the enemy has already failed. Making someone click a button doesn’t magically create fights. It just makes it easier to PvDoor, and creates less tanky objectives during off hours, during times they should be tankier to discourage easy night capping and encourage defense even at off hours.

Yea, the only problem I really had with autoupgrades is that it was difficult to starve the structures out of supply. And also making upgrades manual often in my experience just placed more busywork on people defending. Quite a few people I talked to just found it to be busy work as well especially during off hours when only a few people were willing or able to do it, and they would rather deal with more “active” duties such as placing/refreshing siege, scouting, and and of course yak management being one of the few things I actually like doing myself.

misterdevious.6482:

When I see a suggestion that a “human hand” should be required to start the next structure upgrade, I assume that person isn’t volunteering his own hand 24/7. He’s assuming some “schmuck” will do it. Without the need to prioritize… without the ability to make strategic choices… without burden of cost… without the risk of frustration… the one word left to describe running around the map to trigger the next upgrade… is responsibility.

Well as one who frequently did it prior to HOT and wants a return to some form of manual intervention no I wouldn’t expect others to do it without doing it myself and yes I would take my turn at doing it.

I have scouted so much in previous years, and maintained said upgrades. It’s a pain in the kittens to have to worry about it. People (That I know, which is a significant portion of my server :P) want to get out there and play, they don’t want to sit around babysitting upgrades. Leave that for the system to do. This is a game, not a job. Waiting around and watching the upgrades is a job.

PopeUrban.2578:

Requiring someone to go to the objective and click a button adds nothing to the game, unless you’re under the assumption that the enemy is going to bother camping the objective to wait for that one guy that’s going to run over and click it when they should be focusing on disrupting yaks.

If enough yak runs ahve already made it through for the objective to upgrade, the enemy has already failed. Making someone click a button doesn’t magically create fights. It just makes it easier to PvDoor, and creates less tanky objectives during off hours, during times they should be tankier to discourage easy night capping and encourage defense even at off hours.

I have many issues with this and I could write volumes about it but I’m not so briefly

1.)Capping a camp Perspective… With auto upgrades chances are smaller that I will encounter and enemy while capping it because there isn’t much reason for them to be in their 1/3. Might be some escorting yaks but honestly very few people even do this. So the excitement the enemy will probably be inc soon has dwindled down to boring camp capping. The number of fun fights I’ve had fighting players trying to upgrade a supply camp has been very frequent. Nowadays there isn’t anyone even close by because they have no reason to be and nothing invested in the upgrade. If a player has put the effort to run out and start an upgrade at a camp they usually want to defend it. If I run to a camp and see no upgrades going I see a boring cap and move on, but if it’s been upgraded to say t1 then I know someone has been there and I will watch for them with excitement. Auto upgrades completely removes this entire dynamic and makes the game boring. So basically with the proposed changes its now all about yaks and players fighting each other over yaks, but seeing how that is incredibly boring and barely anyone ever wants to escorts yaks ANET feels they can turn what people don’t like doing into a fun. LOL this falls into the realm of stupidity. The focus should be on the camps not the yaks. Yes I’ve had some good fights over a yak but mostly because an enemy was running by and saw me killing the yak and engaged me. Maybe 1 out of 100 yaks I encounter a player actually escorting a yak. But hey ANET if you think you can turn yak escorting into something exciting and bring more people into WVW… go for it lol. /cry

2.) Upgrading a Camp Perspective… this entire dynamic has been removed from game along with the players that enjoyed trying to get a camp upgraded. Sure I can go stand around a camp in hopes an enemy will show up, but seeing how I have no time invested in the upgrade I don’t really care, I have been made as useless as kittens on a maggot. Besides if it gets capped I just recap it and move on who cares about defending camps its rather pointless 90% of the time. Before HoT upgrading a camp was an active player participation thingy now its not… enough said!

3.)Gawd forbid people defending have busy work, its way more exciting to stand around in a tower(brings tower humping to a whole new level). Hey if ANET implements a few more automatic type stuff we can all stand at the spawn and watch the game and see who wins. /cry

4.)Placement/Refreshing siege Perspective… Here on earth refreshing siege has become such a thrilling experience you have to stand inline to get the opportunity. Now lets be real, siege doesn’t get refreshed anymore and siege refresh timers is the ultimate in boring busy work. In my opinion siege timers should be increased to 3 hours before we lose more players that are tired of running around refreshing siege, they must of died from boredom because here on SBI most of the siege refreshers have vanished. Probably did what I did, they stopped doing it because they were the only one doing it and gave up. Siege timers was a good idea but 60 minute timers was a terrible implementation. Maybe defending stuff might become a national sport if there were actually some siege in the towers when you got there. Furthermore with enemies placing 3-4-5-6-7-10 rams at the gate and bringing down gates so fast who has time to build siege much-less defend.

5.) Scouting Perspective… I use to enjoy doing this but running around refreshing siege burned me out and now that everything automatically upgrades there really isn’t much for me to do except escort yaks which 99% of players find incredibly boring. Oh wait ANET has some magical fix that is going to make yak escorting exciting, silly me! /cry

6.)Night capping… Lets have automatic upgrades so everything is fully upgraded during off periods so we can discourage all this night capping. Gawd forbid people actually want to play WVW during off hours and if they do lets make it hard for them. Realm of the stupidity again!
During off time we need things to be easier or the few new players they do decide to come check out WVW will just see a map that’s a hassle. Well if the like staring at a gate for 10 minutes while someone runs a ram I guess ANET has hit the mark with auto upgrades. Fully fortified structures is not going to stop night capping on servers with the population but it will stop the low population servers from even trying. But hey who needs people in WVW during off peak times. /cry

Conclusion

Auto upgrades is one of the things killing the game. All changes to WVW should be first and foremost to encourage more players in WVW not discourage them. Furthermore if a couple friends capping your stuff in the middle of the night needs to be discouraged then why not just close WVW except during prime-time and run off even more players. Your not going to stop the servers like SBI night-shift which has a decent night-shift thanks to a commander that spent months building it up (Djixie). This is about match balance not auto upgrades. Shallow thinking and seat of your pants, knee jerk implementations is not bringing players to WVW its running them off.

Unfortunately these welcome changes are just a drop in the ocean of WvW complains…

I have been one of those who upgraded stuff. I rarely upgraded keeps (that has got a history) but usually each of our towers I came by got at least one upgrade – sometimes I cared for our whole corner in EB. It was expensive but otherwise not that bad.
I didn’t even care if someone started fortify before the WP (we essentially have no WP in the green keep since HoT anyway) as that was no malicious intend in most cases and you want a fortified keep anyway.
When it got problematic: People ordering additional guards mid fight and that happened nearly every time on every server I’ve been on (now 6). So it was very clear that you would lose that keep and we did. On the other hand that was a nice tool to deny the enemies supply when outnumbered.
I think that those who want the manual upgrades rarely did the upgrades themselves, sorry. So it’s kind of moot to discuss something that is then left for others to do anyway.
The thing I would like to have back is the “deny supply” but I have absolutely no idea to solve this with troll upgrades in mind.

Edit: Awful grammar

Ah not true, at least for me. I would easily spend 5-10g a day on upgrades. I liked being able to do that and make critical decisions that would benefit long-term strategy.

Jana.6831:

I think that those who want the manual upgrades rarely did the upgrades themselves, sorry. So it’s kind of moot to discuss something that is then left for others to do anyway.

Your the second person that recently said something like this. I want to point out I myself spent 500+ gold a month on WVW upgrades and siege so I am not speaking from a point of view that hasn’t walked in the shoes that I am preaching. Furthermore I feel like most people that like auto upgrades probably rarely ever upgraded anything and that’s why they love auto upgrades. It’s harder for the enemy to cap assets while they’re out doing other stuff, but they fail to realize one of the reasons the map has fewer players is because of auto upgrades. Also speaking from experience is that all the people that use to run around our 1/3 on SBI during off-times have stopped logging in anymore. There are many people on my friends list, all of which came from WVW, it use to be full of people online now its full of people that are not online.

Auto upgrades was a big mistake and is one of the reasons WVW is empty. I think many people expressing a point here are discussing the purposed fixes from a narrow viewpoint. How stuff is upgraded is really a petty thing if there isn’t anyone on the map to play with.

I can’t even remember all the new people I have seen come into WVW and usually if they’ve never done a PVP or WVW type game they tend to be a tad gun-shy and usually hang around our 1/3 until they learn a bit about what WVW is all about. But in this new environment all the players that use to run around our 1/3 have disappeared and are not online anymore, so where does that leave a new WVW’er?

Noob.5908:

Jana.6831:

I think that those who want the manual upgrades rarely did the upgrades themselves, sorry. So it’s kind of moot to discuss something that is then left for others to do anyway.

Your the second person that recently said something like this. I want to point out I myself spent 500+ gold a month on WVW upgrades and siege so I am not speaking from a point of view that hasn’t walked in the shoes that I am preaching. Furthermore I feel like most people that like auto upgrades probably rarely ever upgraded anything and that’s why they love auto upgrades. It’s harder for the enemy to cap assets while they’re out doing other stuff, but they fail to realize one of the reasons the map has fewer players is because of auto upgrades. Also speaking from experience is that all the people that use to run around our 1/3 on SBI during off-times have stopped logging in anymore. There are many people on my friends list, all of which came from WVW, it use to be full of people online now its full of people that are not online.

Auto upgrades was a big mistake and is one of the reasons WVW is empty. I think many people expressing a point here are discussing the purposed fixes from a narrow viewpoint. How stuff is upgraded is really a petty thing if there isn’t anyone on the map to play with.

I can’t even remember all the new people I have seen come into WVW and usually if they’ve never done a PVP or WVW type game they tend to be a tad gun-shy and usually hang around our 1/3 until they learn a bit about what WVW is all about. But in this new environment all the players that use to run around our 1/3 have disappeared and are not online anymore, so where does that leave a new WVW’er?

700-1k of gold a month here – it’s a very complicated story and I estimate it was around 10 on the server I’ve been the longest to who cared about upgrades – I felt I was the only one caring for siege though.
It was a constant “If I’m not there things will go wrong”.

ETA: And I don’t really think that autoupgrades is the reason for people to not play wvw anymore. For me it’s that one of my servers died and I didn’t want all the responsibility I felt I had anymore, also I’m sick of being a broken thief but don’t feel like ditching him and maining another class. Also people expected too much with HoT and wvw is all buggy since then anyway which is another “turn of” for me – class balance is kitten, so all fights are rather boring and already have been since June.
I guess wvw has been left abandoned for too long and people took it for too long and now it shows.
Btw: I didn’t say I was against manual upgrades just that they have been problematic.
In the end it’s server a hopelessly outnumbered against server b who does an early morning karma train (usual on EU), before auto upgrades: No one from server a upgraded anything as it was a waste anyway = even better for server b.

Jana.6831:

And I don’t really think that autoupgrades is the reason for people to not play wvw anymore.

It’s not “THE” reason its one of the reasons.

Taken from one of my other post…

The reasons for many WVW’ers quitting is mainly…

((((((BL maps are too confusing and dreary, too much of a pve feel to the BL maps, auto upgrades was a really really did I say really bad idea(should’ve just lowered cost to upgrade). Guild changes and guild upgrading is too expensive and treats small guilds like dirt (this is a big deal).))))))

The above is just considering HoT. The main reason for players quitting since gw2 launch is population balance has gone unchecked and matches are decided before they even get assigned. Most servers have no chance to win, who the kitten is gonna play that?

Noob.5908:

Jana.6831:

And I don’t really think that autoupgrades is the reason for people to not play wvw anymore.

It’s not “THE” reason its one of the reasons.

Taken from one of my other post…

The reasons for many WVW’ers quitting is mainly…

((((((BL maps are too confusing and dreary, too much of a pve feel to the BL maps, auto upgrades was a really really did I say really bad idea(should’ve just lowered cost to upgrade). Guild changes and guild upgrading is too expensive and treats small guilds like dirt (this is a big deal).))))))

The above is just considering HoT. The main reason for players quitting since gw2 launch is population balance has gone unchecked and matches are decided before they even get assigned. Most servers have no chance to win, who the kitten is gonna play that?

I already said when manual upgrades became problematic, so what’s your solution to that?
And why do you consider manual upgrades that important?
(I didn’t read all posts nor was I referring to any special post, so forgive me if you’ve already explained why manual upgrades will save wvw).

Noob.5908:

Jana.6831:

And I don’t really think that autoupgrades is the reason for people to not play wvw anymore.

It’s not “THE” reason its one of the reasons.

Taken from one of my other post…

The reasons for many WVW’ers quitting is mainly…

((((((BL maps are too confusing and dreary, too much of a pve feel to the BL maps, auto upgrades was a really really did I say really bad idea(should’ve just lowered cost to upgrade). Guild changes and guild upgrading is too expensive and treats small guilds like dirt (this is a big deal).))))))

The above is just considering HoT. The main reason for players quitting since gw2 launch is population balance has gone unchecked and matches are decided before they even get assigned. Most servers have no chance to win, who the kitten is gonna play that?

I already said when manual upgrades became problematic, so what’s your solution to that?
And why do you consider manual upgrades to be that important?
(I didn’t read all posts nor was I referring to any special post, so forgive me if you’ve already explained why manual upgrades will save wvw).

I feel that the removal of auto upgrades causes two problems. The map just empties out after it has been re-captured since the home team has nothing to do. Especially, if you are playing during off hours. It also prevents people from being personally invested in defending the map. I used to periodically check in with my phone to see whether my morning upgrades survived.

That said, I believe the HoT way point changes cause more people to avoid the new map. The new map is annoying enough to navigate on its own, and the waypoint changes make it much worse. When I log in to the borderlands and and see a southern camp flipped my first thought is “Kitten this! It’s not worth it”. Then I usually log out of WvW or switch to EB.

Dagger.2035:

I feel that the removal of auto upgrades causes two problems. The map just empties out after it has been re-captured since the home team has nothing to do. Especially, if you are playing during off hours. It also prevents people from being personally invested in defending the map. It seems like a lot of people that are opposed to manual upgrades from higher tier servers so this may not hold with larger populations.

That said, I believe the HoT way point changes cause more people to avoid the new map. The new map is annoying enough to navigate on its own, and the waypoint changes make it much worse. When I log in to the borderlands and and see a southern camp flipped my first thought is “F it! It’s not worth it”. Then I usually log out of WvW or switch to EB.

That is a point – BL seemed to have their own culture – which was a good thing.
But one thing: There’s not many difference between the tiers. The only difference might be that those at the bottom really don’t know too much about the strategical aspect of wvw (I can’t speak for every bronze server though) – everything else is more or less the same – although Gold really had no solo roamers while I was there.
So how about: Bring back manual updates as kind of a trial to see if it’s good for the new BLs? And to work on the buggy auto upgrades. Still I think the overall problems of wvw are too many to really pinpoint them as f.e. you have the manual upgrades, ok. Someone has to be there. Those defending the structures (server’s zerg) though don’t want to play because zergfights are kitten. So it might appear as if manual upgrades are worse than automated because already weak servers become even weaker – I guess you get my point. It might be worth a shot though.

Sorry, I have a bad habit of tweaking my posts. I do wonder if there is any correlation to a person’s view of the HoT changes and their preferred group size and server tier.

Jana.6831:

And why do you consider manual upgrades to be that important?

I am against anything that is automatic and takes out player participation. WVW stops working when there is no players or very few on the map. Fighting non stop just isn’t feasible sometimes people need a break and other things to do. With auto upgrades that means stand around in keep/tower and be bored. Taking a break from fighting use to mean checking upgrades, refreshing siege, scouting, escorting yaks and maybe capping orge, frogs or dredge and sometimes capping a enemy camp so they have something to do besides cap our camps. With auto upgrades and the changes that are purposed taking a break means….

1.) No need to check upgrades I have no control or very little control over it.
2.) Refreshing siege is well… no one does this anymore because people are all burned out refreshing siege and missing it by 10 minutes and losing it all. Siege timers need to be 3 hours so the game doesn’t burn out players.
3.)Cap orges? Sure I can still do this but I have no investment nor does anyone else in seeing our camps become stronger. Defending supply camps for the most part has become a “who cares” we will just recap which has always been a problem at times but is worst now with fewer players on the map.
4.) Escort yaks? Nobody likes to do this and only 1 in 100 yaks I kill in WVW do I ever find someone escorting a yak.
5.) Cap enemy camps sure I can do this but chances are its fully upgraded and unless I am on the right character it becomes a pain. Not to mention there is no way to tell what the enemy is up to by checking camp upgrades. I use to run by camps and see if a upgrade has been ordered at least I would know a real live player had been there recently and made capping camps a tad more exciting because this player just might come try and defend.

See my post above in response to PopeUrban.2578 for more info.

In summary most of the reason for players being in their 1/3 have been removed from the game. When your 1/3 is a ghost town players come into WVW don’t see a tag and think kitten it I will go pve, maybe they port to the keep to see if anyone is there and when they see no one they finally decide to go pve or worst yet log out. The number of players that use to work together to defend camps, escort yaks so they could get a WP in the keep or get a tower upgraded is gone. Basically our little family of 1/3’ers looks like they are getting promoted to glorified yak runners because Anet thinks they can make us like doing things we don’t like. Players come in all skill levels and lower skilled players feel useless in WVW now. Our 1/3 should be alive with people doing things but with all these changes there just isn’t much reason to be there and that gives players coming into WVW right off the bat the impression the map is dead.

Noob.5908:

I am against anything that is automatic and takes out player participation. WVW stops working when there is no players or very few on the map. Fighting non stop just isn’t feasible sometimes people need a break and other things to do.

Haven’t been on NA for a while but if our side is idle the opponent usually isn’t. So servers on EU are “dead” at some point of the day but often at different times. So, a Karma train can easily paper everything and the few remaining on the other side have no hope to upgrade.

Noob.5908:

With auto upgrades that means stand around in keep/tower and be bored. Taking a break from fighting use to mean checking upgrades, refreshing siege, scouting, escorting yaks and maybe capping orge, frogs or dredge and sometimes capping a enemy camp so they have something to do besides cap our camps. With auto upgrades and the changes that are purposed taking a break means….

Already included this in the above, but even with auto upgrades you don’t really have idle times as camps and towers are still in danger – I don’t think anyone objects if you’re just standing around (I might though if we’re the only two in a tower that’s being attacked).

Noob.5908:

2.) Refreshing siege is well… no one does this anymore because people are all burned out refreshing siege and missing it by 10 minutes and losing it all. Siege timers need to be 3 hours so the game doesn’t burn out players.

No one ever did. I’m in wvw for now two years and there were few who cared for the siege.

Noob.5908:

3.)Cap orges? Sure I can still do this but I have no investment nor does anyone else in seeing our camps become stronger. Defending supply camps for the most part has become a “who cares” we will just recap which has always been a problem at times but is worst now with fewer players on the map.
4.) Escort yaks? Nobody likes to do this and only 1 in 100 yaks I kill in WVW do I ever find someone escorting a yak.

This has already been the case before the auto upgrades we had a case of a very smart thief though who hid in SM and kept our workers dead = it couldn’t upgrade – that was really cool. We also had a few dedicated enemies who killed our yaks for hours without end.
Btw: I had 12k escorted yaks before HoT. But I don’t always escort them as well as I’ve got better things to destroy.

Noob.5908:

5.) Cap enemy camps sure I can do this but chances are its fully upgraded and unless I am on the right character it becomes a pain. Not to mention there is no way to tell what the enemy is up to by checking camp upgrades. I use to run by camps and see if a upgrade has been ordered at least I would know a real live player had been there recently and made capping camps a tad more exciting because this player just might come try and defend.

Weakest class with weakest spec here – and even I can cap T3 camps Time to get better!

Noob.5908:

In summary most of the reason for players being in their 1/3 have been removed from the game. When your 1/3 is a ghost town players come into WVW don’t see a tag and think kitten it I will go pve, maybe they port to the keep to see if anyone is there and when they see no one they finally decide to go pve or worst yet log out. The number of players that use to work together to defend camps, escort yaks so they could get a WP in the keep or get a tower upgraded is gone. Basically our little family of 1/3’ers looks like they are getting promoted to glorified yak runners because Anet thinks they can make us like doing things we don’t like. Players come in all skill levels and lower skilled players feel useless in WVW now. Our 1/3 should be alive with people doing things but with all these changes there just isn’t much reason to be there and that gives players coming into WVW right off the bat the impression the map is dead.

That is all nice but not all servers might be lucky to have such a dedicated group of upgraders.

Jana.6831:

Weakest class with weakest spec here – and even I can cap T3 camps Time to get better!

Didn’t say I couldn’t cap a fully upgraded camp sure any class can, but some classes its a pain. Personally if I am gonna go on a camp capping run I prefer my guard it kills faster and has speed to get there.

Jana if your on a lower tier server with fewer players and having a problem getting upgrades done its not the upgrade system that’s the problem it’s the server population imbalance that Anet has ignore to the point that most people quit playing. I am on what was an active server and yes we had a family of players to work on our one third. The point being is all the hot changes have caused even servers that use to be active to become ghost towns and auto upgrades is one of a handful of the reasons for it being like this. If your saying you want auto upgrades because your server doesn’t have enough players I would be more concern about getting players into WVW and I telling you that on a server that had players they all quit and auto upgrades is one of the reasons.

Maps don’t just start each day with a zerg on the map it usually starts with handful of players working together for a common cause and builds from there. When I tag up with only 2-3 people on the map I start with small stuff and build a following from there. Honestly tho I don’t even care to tag in this environment with all the new players taking a fully upgraded tower has become an exercise of patience vs calling them all morons. Can it be done sure I have done it more times that I can count, the point is key veteran players have lost their interest in leading the pack because they know the chances of building up to 10-20 players and fighting the team that is currently owning our tier isn’t gonna happen there just isn’t enough people. Again its server imbalance that’s the main problem but losing most of our regular WVW’ers has made the situation worse.

Again WVW has been broken and the main reason is because veteran players have quit playing, mainly because….

((((((BL maps are too confusing and dreary, too much of a pve feel to the BL maps, auto upgrades was a really really did I say really bad idea(should’ve just lowered cost to upgrade). Guild changes and guild upgrading is too expensive and treats small guilds like dirt (this is a big deal).))))))

Objectives upgrades will no longer be automatic based on time. They will upgrade based on dolyaks that reach them.

This is Good but IMPORTENT the upgraded should not get done directly when doly get in it should take about 5min after last doly get in Before upgraded get done.

Noob.5908:

Didn’t say I couldn’t cap a fully upgraded camp sure any class can, but some classes its a pain. Personally if I am gonna go on a camp capping run I prefer my guard it kills faster and has speed to get there.

You did say it and the class doesn’t really matter but I guess necros can do it the fastest.

Noob.5908:

Jana if your on a lower tier server with fewer players and having a problem getting upgrades done its not the upgrade system that’s the problem it’s the server population imbalance that Anet has ignore to the point that most people quit playing.

I have been from deep bronze to highest gold – so I kind of guess it’s a problem to every server. Also wvw is “sick” – throwing more people in won’t solve anything and in my opinion anet should work on that before considering megaservers.

Noob.5908:

If your saying you want auto upgrades because your server doesn’t have enough players I would be more concern about getting players into WVW and I telling you that on a server that had players they all quit and auto upgrades is one of the reasons.

See above also: EU has got dead times – NA has been different when I have been there (I also was on SBI who were moaning about too few people (in general) a year ago – it’s the same on every server I’ve been to).

No idea what the rest of what you wrote has got to do with anything

No offense but it really sounds as if all you want to do is standing around in towers clicking upgrades – and that’s not what most people want. And the automated upgrades do have their benefits.

The automatic upgrades are fantastic. Anytime my server faces other servers of lower ranking, we can just flip their border and leave it entirely and it’ll be T3 in no time. It’ll be funny watching the one or two scouts they have trying to keep camps flipped to prevent the auto-upgrades.

Another great thing is, we don’t really need scouts either. It takes those lower rank servers with their small groups so long to get through our T3 walls on their border that even if they make it to lord we can wp in anytime we want and snuff them out. Even if we die, just instantly respawn right next to lord, lol. It’s hilarious.

Then again if they did manage to flip it and somehow upgrade it to T3, it takes our zerg less than 6 minutes from outer gate to ring up (I’ve timed it), whereas their small groups grow white beards by the time they see a glimpse of the lord room. So no big.

Please don’t change a thing; we don’t want to have to leave people behind from our karmatrain to actually scout, siege, and guard those keeps. This is working as intended.

Jana, a few posts back, you were asking how to go about handling manual upgrades, while making sure trolls couldn’t grief by ordering it at the worst possible times or by ordering the wrong upgrades on purpose. There’s a very very simple way to go about handling that.

Here’s how it works. You have three tiers. 1, 2, and 3. You tower starts off at tier 1, with paper walls and gates. You talk to the quartermaster and click “Upgrade”. Now all of the yaks coming in work towards upgrading it to tier 2. Tier 2 is reinforced gates and walls, just like how tier 2 is currently. Once it’s tier 2, you can talk to the quartermaster to upgrade it to tier 3. There’s no need to have the guard/merchant upgrades be separate. Just include them in the tiers, as they currently are, and keep them free. Or at least make them use Karma, since that’s pretty much a completely useless currency anymore.

And here’s why that’s important. With manual upgrades, yes it’s a chore, but it’s a chore that at least some people do. Their job isn’t just doing the chores, their job is maintaining the territory. This includes upgrades and building siege, yes, but also controlling the camps, and scouting enemy movement. If the enemy zerg shows up on the map, and there’s no one maintaining the third, there’s no first responders and no one to call for reinforcements. Meaning, the enemy zerg has a free map to take, with no resistance. Which steers into the karma train skid. There’s already plenty about WvW that promotes the karma trains, taking away a key foundation piece to counteracting them only makes the game mode less enjoyable for anyone other than farmers. However, since you can make more gold in 20 minutes of PvE than you can in a day of WvW, not even the farmers will come in there to karma train. They’ll just go to one of the PvE maps, leaving WvW empty.

Everything must be in balance. If you want offence, you need defense. If you want defense, you need offence. If you want fights, you need the workers. If you automate the defense, it stops becoming a strategic game of players versus players, and becomes a mechanical game of players versus the environment. PvE. If a PvP based game mode is already struggling, the answer is never to remove PvP elements and replacing them with more PvE. That’s a surefire way to drive the people interested in the PvP elements out of the game entirely. Which is exactly what we’re seeing now. Don’t get me wrong, the upgrade system isn’t the only reason it’s happening, but it’s a significant contributing factor to it. The layout of the maps, the pathing on the maps, the insane costs for guild upgrades, the oasis event and the shrines, the lag, and the class balance are all contributing factors.

Furthermore, if you’re on a server that doesn’t have 24/7 coverage, an off peak group can take an entire borderland without resistance, and with auto upgrades, there’s a good possibility that the entire thing could be fully upgraded by morning. That group only needs to go through once, and never needs to come back, except to flip back the few areas that have been reclaimed by the skeleton crew, in what would just be a giant karma train. With manual upgrades, if they wanted upgraded areas, they’d have to actually put in the effort to make it happen. They wouldn’t get a free pass, and it wouldn’t compound the off peak coverage problems that are already existent.

Also, when a player or small group spends their day defending and upgrading an area, they get something absolutely priceless from it. Satisfaction,and the feeling of accomplishment. They took an empty paper tower, and turned it into a fortified, siege filled, bunker. That’s something they can be proud of. They feel invested into the area, as though they own it. They actually care about it. That’s not something that can be measured in metrics, or gold, or kill count, or PPT. But that’s something absolutely crucial the overall enjoyment factor those players get. The more they enjoy it, the more likely they are to do. Take that away entirely, and you’ve removed their incentive. Not everyone is driven by shinies, or by the deeply flawed scoring system, or by ego measuring contests. Some people enjoy the nurturing aspect of developing an area from scratch up to its full potential. The only way to keep that is to give them a measure of control over the development process. Escorting yaks just isn’t going to cut it. Not everyone has ADHD, and needs a constant stream of stimulation 24/7. Some people are perfectly capable of sitting still for a while, and some people actually prefer a more mellow experience. If these people don’t have that option, they’ll go play something else.

So there are several reasons why manual upgrades are just plain healthier for the game mode overall, and auto upgrades are outright detrimental to it.

I’d say these are positive changes, especially happy to see PPK coming back into play and the fact that only 1 player can rally from kill.

This is why auto upgrades is killing the game not to mention it kills the ability to socialize on our one third because no one is there, because there is nothing to do.

msalakka.4653:

The automatic upgrades are fantastic. Anytime my server faces other servers of lower ranking, we can just flip their border and leave it entirely and it’ll be T3 in no time. It’ll be funny watching the one or two scouts they have trying to keep camps flipped to prevent the auto-upgrades.

Another great thing is, we don’t really need scouts either. It takes those lower rank servers with their small groups so long to get through our T3 walls on their border that even if they make it to lord we can wp in anytime we want and snuff them out. Even if we die, just instantly respawn right next to lord, lol. It’s hilarious.

Then again if they did manage to flip it and somehow upgrade it to T3, it takes our zerg less than 6 minutes from outer gate to ring up (I’ve timed it), whereas their small groups grow white beards by the time they see a glimpse of the lord room. So no big.

Please don’t change a thing; we don’t want to have to leave people behind from our karmatrain to actually scout, siege, and guard those keeps. This is working as intended.

sadly, all these changes will have minimal effect in bringing people back to play WvW.

The rewards and drops you get in WvW are just TERRIBLE, compare to other game modes. They need to add reward tracks and legendary item just like other game modes to get people to be interested in WvW again.

The only thing that scares me is PPK. Everyone seems to think that it will encourage fights but I worry that it discourages fights by making people less willing to engage with smaller numbers and give up points. If it does end up encouraging fights I’m all for it I just know way to many commanders who are unwilling to engage larger groups just based on giving the enemies bags and having to regather their group at spawn. If they also know they are going to lose net points I fear they will get even more cautious. I’m sure this isn’t an original thought but I didn’t see it in the 6 or so pages I read.