Guild Wars 2

I think tempest and berserker do have more identity than that. A lot of elementalist players, I think, would have preferred their first elite spec to be more “more elementalist” – tempest mechanics clash a bit with the vanilla elementalist playstyle and push it towards a different role. Berserker places a strong focus on being able to make more use of the adrenaline mechanic – for people who enjoy that, it will still have its draws to be used in the future.

That said, I could see each being overshadowed in the future as you say. Tempest is a support spec, and it may retain that position in sPvP and WvW, but in raids it’s basically being used because overloads are still more of a DPS buff than taking a third core specialisation – if elementalists ever get more DPS-oriented elite, that will probably take over. Berserker… yeah, in role, that pretty much is just ‘more warrior’. Which may be a good thing, if future warrior elite specs go in different directions, but it does make it easily overshadowed. Scrapper does bring some fairly unique functionality to the proverbial table… even if that functionality isn’t useful in raids.

Phineas Poe.3018:

coro.3176:

The Scrapper traitline is all but mandatory for pvp/wvw – even for non-hammer builds. If you don’t take it, you’re at a huge disadvantage losing access to function gyro. It is by far the worst elite spec mechanic – useless in pve, but good at what it does in competitive game modes.

It also comes with some decent defensive traits and gives you access to sneak + purge gyros.

Coro, you’re crazy man. Gyros are by and far among the most powerful utility skills introduced in Heart of Thorns. They give stability to function as safe stomps and resses, they function as minor healing skills through Final Salvo, and they offer tons of condition cleanse, damage reduction, and projectile hate. The only thing that makes them “useless” in PvE is the fact that they do no damage — and that scrapper by extension doesn’t improve the engineer’s damage.

Did you not read his post?

Those things you mentioned are great for PvP and WvW. They’re what make Scrapper so powerful for PvP.

And almost completely worthless for PvE. Stability is rarely needed. You never stomp (toxic alliance excluded). Most rezzes are done by the whole group. Condi cleanse is rarely necessary (most enemies deal at most two conditions). Damage reduction generally is not that helpful (and protection is more abundant). Projectile hate can be done better by other classes or core engineer (not that projectiles are a big problem in PvE in the first place). Hammer can deal okay damage when mixed in with kits, but it’s not a big step up.

Add these things together — gyros are not useful (compared to kits) in PvE, and hammer is not great. Therefore, the entire spec is not useful in PvE. Take a look at most of the PvE builds people are building for engineer — they almost exclusively use core specs.

Vagrant.7206:

Phineas Poe.3018:

coro.3176:

The Scrapper traitline is all but mandatory for pvp/wvw – even for non-hammer builds. If you don’t take it, you’re at a huge disadvantage losing access to function gyro. It is by far the worst elite spec mechanic – useless in pve, but good at what it does in competitive game modes.

It also comes with some decent defensive traits and gives you access to sneak + purge gyros.

Coro, you’re crazy man. Gyros are by and far among the most powerful utility skills introduced in Heart of Thorns. They give stability to function as safe stomps and resses, they function as minor healing skills through Final Salvo, and they offer tons of condition cleanse, damage reduction, and projectile hate. The only thing that makes them “useless” in PvE is the fact that they do no damage — and that scrapper by extension doesn’t improve the engineer’s damage.

Did you not read his post?

Those things you mentioned are great for PvP and WvW. They’re what make Scrapper so powerful for PvP.

And almost completely worthless for PvE. Stability is rarely needed. You never stomp (toxic alliance excluded). Most rezzes are done by the whole group. Condi cleanse is rarely necessary (most enemies deal at most two conditions). Damage reduction generally is not that helpful (and protection is more abundant). Projectile hate can be done better by other classes or core engineer (not that projectiles are a big problem in PvE in the first place). Hammer can deal okay damage when mixed in with kits, but it’s not a big step up.

Add these things together — gyros are not useful (compared to kits) in PvE, and hammer is not great. Therefore, the entire spec is not useful in PvE. Take a look at most of the PvE builds people are building for engineer — they almost exclusively use core specs.

the only reason they use tools(/inventions) instead of scrapper is because the equivalent selfish dps increases offered by scrapper are covered by ps warrior and chrono while tools and inventions offer things that allow an engi to absorb more buffs from others, thereby increasing dps more in a situation where someone else is buffing.

thats why scrapper sees more use in open world than raids or fractals.

if your chrono sucks or you dont have one, please take scrapper. its just better than core. you get a bunch of extra defensive things for “free”.

Vagrant.7206:

Did you not read his post?

Of course I did. The bulk of my post was referring to when he said

> It is by far the worst elite spec mechanic

in reference to the function gyro. And considering I cleared Vale Guardian on the first day it came out as a scrapper, I can’t help but disagree. The ability to resurrect players while on the move literally salvaged my kill run. If people actually sat down and crunched the number difference between core engi versus scrapper they’d come to realize the damage difference isn’t even that much, especially when the upswing in utility is almost immeasurable. I view it simply as: the worse a situation gets, the better scrapper becomes. If I’m with an experienced fractal or raid group I don’t need it, but if I’m pugging content or with less experienced players, its defensive attributes carries parties through content.

T4 Mai Trin, for example, is a complete joke when you can res someone completely across the room with your f gyro while you hold her aggro … or when you can just drop it on someone during bomb phase and potentially get them back up.

The simple fact of the matter is that as far as PvE is concerned for a lot of players: if it isn’t first in DPS, it’s last. Which is why, in any content where DPS isn’t such a concern (e.g., WvW or PvP), or in any content where people actually die (inexperienced raid groups and T4 fractals in general) I don’t consider the scrapper “by far the worst elite spec” or even a little bit. It’s a dominant, well-designed specialization that excels at precisely what it is designed to do. It’s not ArenaNet’s fault the community-made meta is so stringently rigid and driven by a great deal of arrogance that people never make mistakes or play suboptimally.

The title of worst elite spec goes to Herald, if anybody—with Tempest or Berserker having the worst mechanic.

Again, I like the Tempest and Berserker mechanics. Overloading is a fun mechanic (even if I would be inclined to say it possibly shouldn’t have been the mechanic for the first elementalist elite specialisation), and Berserker makes using adrenaline a lot more interesting than core warrior. YMMV, though.

Onto the rest, though: Well said. One gets the feeling the way some people talk that everybody is walking around with IDDQD and can never die, and that taking a little longer to kill the enemy is the absolute worst that can ever happen. Now, if you only ever play in a team that works together like a well-oiled machine that may well be the case… but for most people that ISN’T the case. People play some content solo, have learning curves when they first go into group content, or are in groups with people who are still learning even if THEY have mastered a particular piece of group content, and things that help keep you (and your team, if applicable) alive without biting too deeply into your DPS can help in these situations.

It probably doesn’t help that raids have explicit timers, which add more pressure to DPS at all costs… but I do wonder how many groups going in with the ‘DPS at all costs’ mentality end up wiping over and over again when accepting a slightly lower DPS might actually allow them to, if not beat the encounter, at least have more of an opportunity to learn the mechanics so that they can beat it when they do switch to full DPS.

draxynnic.3719:

Again, I like the Tempest and Berserker mechanics. Overloading is a fun mechanic (even if I would be inclined to say it possibly shouldn’t have been the mechanic for the first elementalist elite specialisation), and Berserker makes using adrenaline a lot more interesting than core warrior. YMMV, though.

It’s not that I dislike them in any way; berserker is actually quite a lot more fun to play than the core warrior build, and I think all of the Heart of Thorns specializations eliminated a lot of the “cheesiness” that plagued the dungeon and FOTM 50 meta for years. All professions feel significantly more robust and fleshed out; I just think that ArenaNet played it pretty safe with the berserker and tempest (and daredevil to a lesser extent). I mean, just look at what chronomancer, druid, and scrapper did to their respective professions by comparison.

draxynnic.3719:

Onto the rest, though: Well said. One gets the feeling the way some people talk that everybody is walking around with IDDQD and can never die, and that taking a little longer to kill the enemy is the absolute worst that can ever happen. Now, if you only ever play in a team that works together like a well-oiled machine that may well be the case… but for most people that ISN’T the case. People play some content solo, have learning curves when they first go into group content, or are in groups with people who are still learning even if THEY have mastered a particular piece of group content, and things that help keep you (and your team, if applicable) alive without biting too deeply into your DPS can help in these situations.

I am in a 500-man guild full of both tryhards and casuals on a literal spectrum of skill level. I don’t really PvE much anymore, but when I did, I frequently found the utility between core engi and scrapper often placed in sharp relief of one another depending on who I am playing with. The core engi build is an effective DPS machine, but that’s literally all it is. Core engi won’t keep anyone alive (or even yourself) if the group plays suboptimally, and it depends on a great number of boxes to be checked off to even reach its maximum potential. If I’m being completely honest, unless it’s a group I absolutely trust, I just prefer to run the scrapper line over a third DPS tree, even if I’m running four kits. If people get obstinate about it I usually swap back, but those people usually end up with egg on their face by the end of the run.

draxynnic.3719:

It probably doesn’t help that raids have explicit timers, which add more pressure to DPS at all costs… but I do wonder how many groups going in with the ‘DPS at all costs’ mentality end up wiping over and over again when accepting a slightly lower DPS might actually allow them to, if not beat the encounter, at least have more of an opportunity to learn the mechanics so that they can beat it when they do switch to full DPS.

I have friends that have low-manned raid content well below the traditional 10-man raid group. DPS is a convenient tool to measure team success, but the simple fact of the matter is that proper formation and positioning combined with good understanding of the content is really what determines the outcome of a boss fight. DPS is just the low-hanging fruit to solving one’s problems, and is usually a result of a lack of the aforementioned necessities and less about the build one runs.

Of course, I’m not personally advocating people veer from the meta … but I think most PvE players make a bigger deal about what’s “viable” versus what’s “optimal” than they really should.

What I said was that it’s the worst “elite spec mechanic” as in, there’s next to no gameplay in it. It’s situational – you might use it in raids or in fractals, but ideally you won’t have to. It might be okay if we got some kind of buff while it’s not in use, but then that’s power creep so .. I don’t know. IMO, it should be able to res dead npc’s or harvest nodes or other things as well.

Compared to Druid, Reaper, etc. It just feels a bit .. lacking. It’s like they didn’t get around to designing anything good, so they gave us a res button.

Despite that, it’s really good in pvp/wvw. Hence why I said it was ‘all but mandatory’.

They probably will do it differently this time. As others have said, they’ll likely change or replace the toolbelt skills with the new spec.

I can’t see them replacing the toolbelt slots for anything else as you’d be indirectly nerfing every core utility skill (Elixir gun just for example where you’d be losing one of our best stun breaks) along with various traits in the tool trait line. A temporary effect, like a conjured weapon maybe, but not a permanent change/replacement.

Keeping it in is current form also means that any new elite spec utilities can be tweaked to either enhance the spec’s base mechanic is or the new weapon, in the hammer’s case by granted three of the gyros a combo field to use with hammer 3.

There is still plenty of mechanics that would fit with a ‘Holosmith’ (assuming that is still the direction the spec will go it) such as creating an illusionary copy of your offhand weapon in the main hand via weapon swap or the new utility toolbelt skills temporarily changing your toolbelt into a mini holo kit for a few charges.

Well, that’s how elite specs were supposed to work. They’re supposed to change the playstyle, not be a strict upgrade. Unfortunately, of all the elite specs, only Reaper actually accomplished this because it takes away Death Shroud and replaces it with Reaper Shroud. (actually, I guess you could argue DH did too, but the DH F-skills are way better than base Guard’s)

To avoid power creep, they need to take away something in before adding another thing. Otherwise you just end up with a Druid situation where the elite spec is just always better than the base.

@coro: Not always. DPS rangers in PvE do sometimes dispense with druid. Generally speaking, the sacrifice is the opportunity to take a third core spec line. Currently, most elite specs are balanced such that taking the elite is clearly better than taking a third core spec most of the time - however, both the balance and meta are moving in a direction which is making core builds more viable again.

@Malhovic Adhamar: I’ve said that replacing the toolbelt is something they could do, but that’s not a prediction that they will do it for the Holosmith. I’ve mostly said it in response to Lonami, who advocates wiping the toolbelt altogether because he(?) views the toolbelt as not being compatible with future elite specialisations.

However, as much as I disagree with the conclusion, Lonami does have a point. The toolbelt does occupy all of the F1-F5 slots, so unless ArenaNet expands the profession mechanic bar to F6, they can’t simply add a new profession mechanic to the profession bar as they did with druid, chronomancer, berserker and revenant. This is probably why scrapper uses the F-key, as clunky as that is (it could probably have been made a lot easier to use if it was just a matter of pressing F6, say, and it would either finish your current downed target or, if you did not have a downed target, find a downed ally to res). There are other mechanics that can be worked with – for instance, maybe using the weaponswap key could do something, or there cold be something like the daredevil where certain actions have an additional effect. However, if ArenaNet does want an engineer elite specialisation mechanic to use the F1-F5 keys, this will require replacing the toolbelt.

One could probably assume that any such elite specialisation toolbelt replacement will have F1-F5 skills that are suitable replacements for the toolbelt. Naturally, this will have an effect on the balance between the skills. Skills which have good associated toolbelt skills will become less attractive, while skills that have weaker associated toolbelt skills will become comparatively better as that drawback is no longer relevant. I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing, though, since it can contribute to such an elite specialisation having a notably different feel to the others.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Vagrant.7206:

Did you not read his post?

Of course I did. The bulk of my post was referring to when he said

> It is by far the worst elite spec mechanic

in reference to the function gyro. And considering I cleared Vale Guardian on the first day it came out as a scrapper, I can’t help but disagree. The ability to resurrect players while on the move literally salvaged my kill run. If people actually sat down and crunched the number difference between core engi versus scrapper they’d come to realize the damage difference isn’t even that much, especially when the upswing in utility is almost immeasurable. I view it simply as: the worse a situation gets, the better scrapper becomes. If I’m with an experienced fractal or raid group I don’t need it, but if I’m pugging content or with less experienced players, its defensive attributes carries parties through content.

T4 Mai Trin, for example, is a complete joke when you can res someone completely across the room with your f gyro while you hold her aggro … or when you can just drop it on someone during bomb phase and potentially get them back up.

The simple fact of the matter is that as far as PvE is concerned for a lot of players: if it isn’t first in DPS, it’s last. Which is why, in any content where DPS isn’t such a concern (e.g., WvW or PvP), or in any content where people actually die (inexperienced raid groups and T4 fractals in general) I don’t consider the scrapper “by far the worst elite spec” or even a little bit. It’s a dominant, well-designed specialization that excels at precisely what it is designed to do. It’s not ArenaNet’s fault the community-made meta is so stringently rigid and driven by a great deal of arrogance that people never make mistakes or play suboptimally.

The title of worst elite spec goes to Herald, if anybody—with Tempest or Berserker having the worst mechanic.

Thing is, the benefits you’re touting in PvE are designed to help bad and/or incompetent players. Rezzing people from a distance is only useful if the player goes down, and that’s generally because they screwed up or aren’t good players. What you’re suggesting then is that our elite spec is great for bad players.

The damage buffs provided by scrapper are relatively small compared to the boosts the other classes. The support is for bad players.

The core engi build is an effective DPS machine, but that’s literally all it is. Core engi won’t keep anyone alive (or even yourself) if the group plays suboptimally, and it depends on a great number of boxes to be checked off to even reach its maximum potential.

I disagree.

I find myself often healing just below the druids in my raids with my condi engi (Healing Turret + Detonate + Big Ol’ Bomb). I also find that my condi engi is great at CC (Big ol bomb + air blast + soft cc’s) and controlling spirits (in Gors) with chills, immobilize, and cripple. Core engi offers way more than just DPS, whereas scrapper mainly seems to offer some tankiness and benefits for bad players.

Vagrant.7206:

Thing is, the benefits you’re touting in PvE are designed to help bad and/or incompetent players. Rezzing people from a distance is only useful if the player goes down, and that’s generally because they screwed up or aren’t good players. What you’re suggesting then is that our elite spec is great for bad players.

The damage buffs provided by scrapper are relatively small compared to the boosts the other classes. The support is for bad players.

Phineas’s entire point is that not everybody plays exclusively with perfect players. When you’re playing with players who are less experienced with the content, either because you’re training them up, you have a couple of subs, or that’s just who you happen to have, being able to offer that extra safety net can be useful. And everyone has their first time in a raid or other difficult content.

He said himself that if you’re confident in your team, then the core engi is the better way to go. And there’s nothing wrong with that – the elite specs weren’t supposed to be clear upgrades that are better than core-only specs in every respect.

draxynnic.3719:

Vagrant.7206:

Thing is, the benefits you’re touting in PvE are designed to help bad and/or incompetent players. Rezzing people from a distance is only useful if the player goes down, and that’s generally because they screwed up or aren’t good players. What you’re suggesting then is that our elite spec is great for bad players.

The damage buffs provided by scrapper are relatively small compared to the boosts the other classes. The support is for bad players.

Phineas’s entire point is that not everybody plays exclusively with perfect players. When you’re playing with players who are less experienced with the content, either because you’re training them up, you have a couple of subs, or that’s just who you happen to have, being able to offer that extra safety net can be useful. And everyone has their first time in a raid or other difficult content.

Right, but all the other elite specs both help newbies and perfect players. Ours primarily helps newbies. That’s my point.

He said himself that if you’re confident in your team, then the core engi is the better way to go. And there’s nothing wrong with that – the elite specs weren’t supposed to be clear upgrades that are better than core-only specs in every respect.

The problem with that statement is that almost every other class did in fact have a straight upgrade in both PvP and PvE. Take a look at most of the builds people are running:

• You never see a base guardian, warrior, mesmer, thief, or tempest any more in either game mode.
• Necro occasionally will opt for purely core in PvE, but this isn’t common.
• One ranger raid condi build is purely core.
• Revenant didn’t have a pre-HoT experience, so it’s hard to say.

Like I said, they weren’t supposed to be clear upgrades.

ArenaNet has been slowly shifting the balance of those other professions so that they are less clear upgrades. There are thief builds used in some content that don’t have Daredevil, and core mesmer has seen some use in sPvP and even in some raids. The progressive buffs to core guardian and nerfs to dragonhunter are, IMO, starting to put core guardian on the cusp of being viable again in situations that aren’t DPS-is-king, but in situations that are, it’s hard to beat traps as a DPS enhancer. Elementalists are in a similar situation – the extra damage available through overloads is too good to pass up.

Necromancer and ranger… well, you’ve noted yourself.

In a way, this actually suggests that scrapper was better designed, in that it actually more-or-less hit the intended balance point when the others went wide. Scrapper isn’t intended as a DPS-oriented spec, so it makes sense that if DPS is all you’re interested in, it won’t have much to offer you.

coro.3176:

What I said was that it’s the worst “elite spec mechanic” as in, there’s next to no gameplay in it.

That’s a very fair point. Unlike pretty much every other specialization, we didn’t see any real changes to our profession mechanic. While guardians got new virtues and warriors got new burst skills, we’re stuck with the same old tool belt skills that operate the same exact way as they have since 2012.

But really: how do you mess around with the tool belt without completely disrupting engineer balance? Engineer has by and far the most rigorous profession mechanic in the game, and it makes any little adjustment to how the tool belt works incredibly difficult to balance just because there’s so many moving parts to it. ArenaNet has to balance three (or, well, six) virtues on guardian but over a couple dozen tool belt skills on the engineer.

I mean, let’s take seriously the idea that they just throw all of it out and replace it with something else with the holosmith. Prior to the turret rework, that would mean literally disabling the ability to detonate turrets. I imagine this is something they recognized themselves, which prompted the recent change … but even afterward it’s important that ArenaNet is very careful when messing around with tool belt skills, because many of the “meta” utility skill right now, whether that’s in PvE, PvP, or WvW, are two-for-one package deals.

The slightest change to how they tool belt skills work would heavily impact the nature of a lot of our abilities and how balanced utility skills are in relationship to one another. It’s not like virtues where they can be easily replaced with something else and everything surrounding the class still fits.

As such, I don’t blame ArenaNet for avoiding that can of worms and just giving us the function gyro. Scrapper still manages to fulfill a very distinct purpose and gives the engineer profession a flavor profile it hadn’t previously: being easy to play.

Vagrant.7206:

What you’re suggesting then is that our elite spec is great for bad players.

That’s a bit of a tactless way to look at it—but yes, I suppose that’s an accurate statement. What I think you’re forgetting, however, is that most people that play Guild Wars 2 firmly fit your definition of an “incompetent” player. Just pug a mid-level fractal or dungeon any time you need reminding of that.

To look at it a bit more constructively, scrapper fulfills the same role that a hammer guardian or necromancer does in PvE—it is a support carry build. It’s up to you to make the decision to run it or not, and I’m not really sure I see the controversy in having additional build options or improving the engineer in areas beyond DPS (especially since core engi is already so effective at it at both power and condi). I’d expect more of the same moving forward, though I imagine we’ll settle more closely to druid or chronomancer in PvE in that our supportive role will be more offensive in nature.

Vagrant.7206:

The problem with that statement is that almost every other class did in fact have a straight upgrade in both PvP and PvE. Take a look at most of the builds people are running:

• You never see a base guardian, warrior, mesmer, thief, or tempest any more in either game mode.
• Necro occasionally will opt for purely core in PvE, but this isn’t common.
• One ranger raid condi build is purely core.
• Revenant didn’t have a pre-HoT experience, so it’s hard to say.

1. Burn guardian not only is seen in PvP still, but it’s actually a very strong build up until platinum. Burn guardians can (and arguably should) run Virtues over Dragonhunter with great effectiveness.

2. Condi Revenant, a new build for the upcoming season and also fractals following the balance patch, can go Mallyx/Shiro or Mallyx/Jalis just fine, dropping Glint (and Herald) without much sacrifice.

3. Valor/Honor/Virtues is still overall the ideal trait setup for guardian in WvW, and is literally the backbone of any sizable guild raid group, especially with the condi meta we’re in. It’s arguably the most important build-class combination to have ample amounts of.

coro.3176:

My guess would be main hand power, but that it will still be worse than hammer.

And since no one uses Hammer, that’ll mean more nade spam?

TBH I feel bat we won’t be able to use elite weapons on different elites. Holosmith with hammer would also be really cool if it is a power build. Elites would keep adding to classes that way until every class can run all weapons.

One thing that I was thinking was if they turned Stamina into Gas for the Holosmith elite. You have ways to get Energy and ways to spend it. So you can be very mobile if you save gas or very bursty if you don’t dodge and just ram all stamina as damage!

Either way the change to turret basically means they are indeed switching the toolbelts somehow. The explanation they gave for the change was hard to believe. Most people don’t use turrets and those that do most likely value Overcharging them over the toolbelt. I mean, if you can’t overcharge now then there isn’t much point to keeping them anyway in most cases.

Anyway, I do like scrapper a lot. I mean, hammer is the most fun thing ever, it’s just not that great on PVE. I’d argue if they buffed gadgets and add scrapper synergy to it it would be a fun playstyle. Gadget Scrapper. A close quarters fighter with high utility. But having hammer only to switch to granade or elixir gun or whatever just kinda sucks.

Kenshi Maru.5489:

TBH I feel bat we won’t be able to use elite weapons on different elites. Holosmith with hammer would also be really cool if it is a power build. Elites would keep adding to classes that way until every class can run all weapons.

One thing that I was thinking was if they turned Stamina into Gas for the Holosmith elite. You have ways to get Energy and ways to spend it. So you can be very mobile if you save gas or very bursty if you don’t dodge and just ram all stamina as damage!

Either way the change to turret basically means they are indeed switching the toolbelts somehow. The explanation they gave for the change was hard to believe. Most people don’t use turrets and those that do most likely value Overcharging them over the toolbelt. I mean, if you can’t overcharge now then there isn’t much point to keeping them anyway in most cases.

Anyway, I do like scrapper a lot. I mean, hammer is the most fun thing ever, it’s just not that great on PVE. I’d argue if they buffed gadgets and add scrapper synergy to it it would be a fun playstyle. Gadget Scrapper. A close quarters fighter with high utility. But having hammer only to switch to granade or elixir gun or whatever just kinda sucks.

I agree. Engi has the elast number of weapons and could use little more variety. Enabling elite specs to use any elite spec weapon would help engi IMO.

Also gas mechanic? Seriously? 15 year old me is laughing his ass off right now

Kenshi Maru.5489:

Either way the change to turret basically means they are indeed switching the toolbelts somehow. The explanation they gave for the change was hard to believe. Most people don’t use turrets and those that do most likely value Overcharging them over the toolbelt. I mean, if you can’t overcharge now then there isn’t much point to keeping them anyway in most cases.

Not true. Surprise Shot was popular on power DPS builds because it basically converted a free utility slot into otherwise free DPS (Surprise Shot has no activation time, you just press it on recharge and damage happens… particularly if you have the Static Discharge trait). People would take the rifle turret purely for Surprise Shot and never drop the turret itself because even if they dropped the turret, overcharged it, and detonated it before Surprise Shot recharged, it was still a DPS drop over what their character would be otherwise doing.

Now, you can drop the turret, and then forget about it until it gets destroyed or it’s time to relocate.

The explanation does make sense. However, the fact that they’re did it now, in what might be the second-last balance patch before the expansion, is… suggestive. It might be that it’s part of the reason but not the whole reason.

draxynnic.3719:

Kenshi Maru.5489:

Either way the change to turret basically means they are indeed switching the toolbelts somehow. The explanation they gave for the change was hard to believe. Most people don’t use turrets and those that do most likely value Overcharging them over the toolbelt. I mean, if you can’t overcharge now then there isn’t much point to keeping them anyway in most cases.

Not true. Surprise Shot was popular on power DPS builds because it basically converted a free utility slot into otherwise free DPS (Surprise Shot has no activation time, you just press it on recharge and damage happens… particularly if you have the Static Discharge trait). People would take the rifle turret purely for Surprise Shot and never drop the turret itself because even if they dropped the turret, overcharged it, and detonated it before Surprise Shot recharged, it was still a DPS drop over what their character would be otherwise doing.

Now, you can drop the turret, and then forget about it until it gets destroyed or it’s time to relocate.

The explanation does make sense. However, the fact that they’re did it now, in what might be the second-last balance patch before the expansion, is… suggestive. It might be that it’s part of the reason but not the whole reason.

You are right about it, yet i can’t help but feel Rifle Turret was the only one who got benefited from these changes, for example, Thumpher turret had a great overcharge skill, the only issue is that it was (and still is) locked behind a long ass cd recharge, these changes i bet just made Thumper Turret even less desired of what it was already.

The other one that i could think off that got benefited from this is the Rocket Turret, yet, i haven’t seen any sign of replacing the Rifle turret as a dps slot at all.

Raids aren’t PvE.
Raids are a very “special” PvE nook.

Scrapper can be “special”, no doubt. But it doesn’t work well in most PvE areas.

Ardid.7203:

Raids aren’t PvE.
Raids are a very “special” PvE nook.

Scrapper can be “special”, no doubt. But it doesn’t work well in most PvE areas.

The same benefits apply in five-man content – in fact, even more so, since five-man content doesn’t have enrage timers and the occasional DPS check like raids do. So it’s more viable to sacrifice max DPS in exchange for more survivability, whether for yourself or to throw function gyros to res downed allies.

Similarly, in open-world content when you’re not attached to a zerg, or in story instances, you might find yourself alone against stiff opposition, where a few more defensive skills might be the difference between living or dying.

Basically, apart from open world bosses and farming trains (where it really generally doesn’t matter what you bring), raids are probably the circumstance where scrapper is least useful.

Kenshi Maru.5489:

TBH I feel bat we won’t be able to use elite weapons on different elites. Holosmith with hammer would also be really cool if it is a power build. Elites would keep adding to classes that way until every class can run all weapons.

I think you guys forget how strong a weapon our shield is. It offers a blast finisher, a “full” (100%) projectile finisher, a projectile reflect, a knockback, a melee stun, a ranged daze (for up to 5 targets), and a 2-second ranged block all in two skills.

The engineer shield is really, really good, and it’s arguably one of the best off-hands in the game. The only reason we don’t use it is because (1) there’s no need for its defensive gains in PvE and (2) the hammer and rifle both hilariously outclass the main-hand pistol as a damage option despite all the years ArenaNet has tried buffing it.

If ArenaNet does the holosmith sword properly, it could be substantially more broken a weapon just on the basis that it gets paired with everything the shield offers. And given the fact that the only offensive option to pair it with would be the pistol having Blowtorch, I imagine that the holosmith will be a condition-damage oriented specialization—or so I hope.

Kenshi Maru.5489:

One thing that I was thinking was if they turned Stamina into Gas for the Holosmith elite. You have ways to get Energy and ways to spend it. So you can be very mobile if you save gas or very bursty if you don’t dodge and just ram all stamina as damage!

I’d really prefer they leave stamina alone, given how much the Tools trait line is balanced around it already, and how much powerful traits like Kinetic Battery are based on properly timed dodges already. I’d prefer ArenaNet try and make Tools a more competitive choice with the next expansion and get us out of the Invention+Alchemy rut we’ve been in for as long as I can remember. It wasn’t so long ago that a glass cannon build was a viable choice in PvP—but that depended on Tools being a viable tree line option given all of its obvious advantages.

Kenshi Maru.5489:

Either way the change to turret basically means they are indeed switching the toolbelts somehow. The explanation they gave for the change was hard to believe. Most people don’t use turrets and those that do most likely value Overcharging them over the toolbelt. I mean, if you can’t overcharge now then there isn’t much point to keeping them anyway in most cases.

I think it’s a pretty safe assumption that the next elite specialization will change the profession mechanic in some way, especially in light of the turret changes, as you said. I just hope it’s a meaningful adjustment to how tool belt skills are used, and not just something like the tempest where you just overcharge them and get a longer cooldown.

The thing I’d like to really see more than anything is getting a set of tool belt skills that act closer to virtues or facets that emanate some kind of passive while providing a skill activation. That alone would serve as a major adjustment to how the tool belt works on the engineer, and would give the holosmith a pretty different feel over the scrapper and core engineer. It’s not a particularly sexy or original change, but they did well enough making mesmer wells different enough from necro wells in function and flavor (just as they did with guard vs. ranger traps).

This would also shake up the priority list for a lot of core utility skills that are primarily taken only for their tool belt skill (e.g., Rifle Turret or Elixir R) or are seen as lesser choices because their tool belt skills are pretty weak by comparison (e.g., pretty much all gadgets). If utility skills began to be examined solely based on their functionality as a solely-existing utility skill and not a 2-for-1 package as they currently are, we might be able to see some sensible balancing down the road for underperforming utility skills like gadgets and turrets.

Kenshi Maru.5489:

Anyway, I do like scrapper a lot. I mean, hammer is the most fun thing ever, it’s just not that great on PVE. I’d argue if they buffed gadgets and add scrapper synergy to it it would be a fun playstyle. Gadget Scrapper. A close quarters fighter with high utility. But having hammer only to switch to granade or elixir gun or whatever just kinda sucks.

It’s pretty obvious at this point that the scrapper’s main purpose was to give engineers a choice in play style that didn’t revolve around kits and was a bit easier to play. I think, looking at things two years later, the scrapper succeeded in both of these goals. While the community imposes a lot of artificial restrictions in raids or fractals, the simple fact of the matter is that the scrapper trait line succeeds exactly what it was designed to do, and that the holosmith will likely help push the engineer away from elixirs and toward gadgets much in the same way the scrapper pushed the engineer away from stacking kits.

I also think the unfortunate reality is that the scrapper is much more heavily a PvP/WvW oriented specialization by design of how the function gyro works, so we should expect something to have more PvE utility in the next specialization.

Phineas Poe.3018:

If ArenaNet does the holosmith sword properly, it could be substantially more broken a weapon just on the basis that it gets paired with everything the shield offers. And given the fact that the only offensive option to pair it with would be the pistol having Blowtorch, I imagine that the holosmith will be a condition-damage oriented specialization—or so I hope.

I really hope not. Offhand pistol is already used in a top-tier condition build, with simplified versions (meaning no or less kits) of it that deal great damage. For build variety’s sake, I hope it is a support spec that enables shield at least for the utility it brings compared to no-condition-damage blowtorch.

Akeno.4962:

I really hope not. Offhand pistol is already used in a top-tier condition build, with simplified versions (meaning no or less kits) of it that deal great damage. For build variety’s sake, I hope it is a support spec that enables shield at least for the utility it brings compared to no-condition-damage blowtorch.

That just speaks to the one-dimensionality of PvE being a DPS-over-everything kind of mode. The only time I remember ever really using the shield in PvE was during the Queen’s Gauntlet.

There’s no sense in Holosmith being a power-oriented specialization when there is no off-hand to accompany it.

I used shield back when southsun was new and those kitten karka nearly 1 shot me with that pew pew…. since that, nothing. not even queens gauntlet!

Phineas Poe.3018

That just speaks to the one-dimensionality of PvE being a DPS-over-everything kind of mode. The only time I remember ever really using the shield in PvE was during the Queen’s Gauntlet.

There’s no sense in Holosmith being a power-oriented specialization when there is no off-hand to accompany it.

I am a (mostly) pve player and I find it quite one dimensional as it is designed: simply put, you always take the best dps option, and that’s never gonna be shield. Unless the spec deals a damage so low you can afford changing to shield for its utility/cc. Like chrono does, replacing offhand sword with focus.

Core engineer lacks a power offhand so, if we stick to that rule, it will never have a power main hand. More restrictions to a class with the least possibilities in weapons and combinations between them. Wouldn’t be better if they compensated this issue with a spec with good mechanics and skills?

It’s entirely possible that Sword will bring competative DPS with it’s Auto-attack alone, kinda like how the old DD Staff or Warrior Axe worked. Shield has a few things going for it that can be useful in PvE, such as a Blast Finisher and lots of CC (Especially if a Defiant enemy attacks the Block on #5 several times) although it does need a few tweaks and buffs still (Such as reduced AT on Shield Throw and possible more Damage overall).

Don’t forget kits, too. If Sword has enough DPS its Auto Attack and a few short CD skills, then you can mix in high-damage skills like Freeze Grenades, Grenade Barrage and Acid Bomb into your rotation despite their substantial cooldowns, because you now have a decent filler, where previously there was none.

Akeno.4962:

Core engineer lacks a power offhand so, if we stick to that rule, it will never have a power main hand. More restrictions to a class with the least possibilities in weapons and combinations between them. Wouldn’t be better if they compensated this issue with a spec with good mechanics and skills?

Never is a strong word, and there’s nothing stopping them from making the sword strong enough to where the off-hand doesn’t matter. Look at revenant, for example.

I just figured it made sense to make the sword a condi weapon in this instance just so perhaps in PvE we can finally shed our reliance on kits and run a sword/pistol setup … while still giving us a reason to run shield in PvP/WvW. It just seems logical to me.

The only real guarantee right now is that, without some kind of rework, no future elite specialization would ever have a power off-hand, as we’d be stuck running the pistol with it.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Never is a strong word, and there’s nothing stopping them from making the sword strong enough to where the off-hand doesn’t matter. Look at revenant, for example.

I just figured it made sense to make the sword a condi weapon in this instance just so perhaps in PvE we can finally shed our reliance on kits and run a sword/pistol setup … while still giving us a reason to run shield in PvP/WvW. It just seems logical to me.

The only real guarantee right now is that, without some kind of rework, no future elite specialization would ever have a power off-hand, as we’d be stuck running the pistol with it.

As we all know, engi has a good main hand + off hand condi combo with pistols. Then there is an offhand shield. I really doubt that they’ll give us now a condi weapon when our condi build already uses 1 hand weapons and they aren’t underwhelming.

IMHO a power weapon with some utility that would complement the shield (which could use some buffs) seems much more realistic.

Also I doubt that they’ll create a weapon just to counter kits. Either they’ll redesign kits or try to counter kits with the new specialization mechanics. But in terms of weapons we’re certainly missing a main hand weapon that complements shield and is useful in a different way than the other main hand (pistol) is. We need something that works well with the shield. Variety is the key.

There isn’t really point to give us another condi weapon currently – it would be either useless in comparison to MH pistol, or it would make the MH pistol useless. No point in making things more difficult for themselves when there’s no need for it.

leviathan.2148:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Never is a strong word, and there’s nothing stopping them from making the sword strong enough to where the off-hand doesn’t matter. Look at revenant, for example.

I just figured it made sense to make the sword a condi weapon in this instance just so perhaps in PvE we can finally shed our reliance on kits and run a sword/pistol setup … while still giving us a reason to run shield in PvP/WvW. It just seems logical to me.

The only real guarantee right now is that, without some kind of rework, no future elite specialization would ever have a power off-hand, as we’d be stuck running the pistol with it.

As we all know, engi has a good main hand + off hand condi combo with pistols. Then there is an offhand shield. I really doubt that they’ll give us now a condi weapon when our condi build already uses 1 hand weapons and they aren’t underwhelming.

IMHO a power weapon with some utility that would complement the shield (which could use some buffs) seems much more realistic.

Also I doubt that they’ll create a weapon just to counter kits. Either they’ll redesign kits or try to counter kits with the new specialization mechanics. But in terms of weapons we’re certainly missing a main hand weapon that complements shield and is useful in a different way than the other main hand (pistol) is. We need something that works well with the shield. Variety is the key.

There isn’t really point to give us another condi weapon currently – it would be either useless in comparison to MH pistol, or it would make the MH pistol useless. No point in making things more difficult for themselves when there’s no need for it.

I agree with your point leviathan, a power mainhand and a buff to the shield should be the way to go for our next set of expansion weapon.

About the kits, who knows what they could do with them, if they see kits are too represive with our pve builds, i coulds see thgem doing traits that anti-sinergize with kits, that, if they are really desperate on achieve variety against kits.

And i mean top meta variety, not simplified kitten that cant reach the potential numbers as a 4 kit build can do.

I know saying this on a engineer forum is a sacrilege but, don’t you feel engineer is very restricted by kits?

- Condition builds reward using as many skills as possible. And meta viper engi uses 4 kits, meaning lots of skills. A new condition focused spec would need formidable utilities that replace many weaker skills.

- Power engineer is, imo, quite restricted to bomb kit auto attack (because it hits like a truck) and to tool belt skills. There’s no way they can give a better auto attack to any spec weapon. And with a new spec, tool belt might disappear. So the identity of the spec might get lost staying in bomb kit most of the time and using its weapon skills or utilities as “filler”, like grenade and rifle skills are in this build.

Of course it could achieve better dps, to me it’s just a matter of losing identity. Only a very meaningful mechanic change compared to core engineer could save that from becoming a tempest or daredevil in terms of identity.

- The only point where engineer doesn’t seem as restricted would be support. Elixir kit is cool for condi removal, but that’s just it. And let’s not talk about Med kit. That’s where my bets are.

Akeno.4962:

I know saying this on a engineer forum is a sacrilege but, don’t you feel engineer is very restricted by kits?

The class is really built around the kits and an overall flexibility. Also the engie was designed to be played just outside melee range. With those two original design concepts in mind, our weapons are much more utility-ish feeling to better fit with kits. The combo of weapon+kits gives this ‘reverse ele’ set up; where eles have loads of skills coming from the weapon & attunements but fixed utilities, engie has a single fixed weapon choice and then loads of skills coming from the kits. As an added bonus there are very short (1s) weapon swap for kit dropping where as most other classes have 9s weapon swaps. Even if kits aren’t used engie still gets ‘two utilities’ per slot in a way due to the toolbelt.

In a way its kinda funny that the mechanic that gives us access to the most skills and in a very fluid/flexible way is one of the most complained about as restrictive to the class.

The weapon implementation I think is going to be fairly difficult for the devs to get right for the Holomancer, simply because of the mechanical space engie weapons fill and just how little design space is left in that slot. To me it seems like there’s going to be a significant amount of overlap or stranded and not really fitting in.

Frost.5017:

In a way its kinda funny that the mechanic that gives us access to the most skills and in a very fluid/flexible way is one of the most complained about as restrictive to the class.

It’s restrictive because right now, if we aren’t playing at least 1 kit (and generally 2-kits is optimal), our DPS is atrocious. The problem is that taking kits isn’t really optional right now, if you want to be a serious player. At least ele gets to change its utility skills.

Akeno.4962:

Core engineer lacks a power offhand so, if we stick to that rule, it will never have a power main hand.

Not necessarily – the warrior leak indicates that they’ll get dual-wielding daggers. So it’s possible that a future elite specialisation could come with a power mainhand and a power offhand to go with it.

draxynnic.3719:

Akeno.4962:

Core engineer lacks a power offhand so, if we stick to that rule, it will never have a power main hand.

Not necessarily – the warrior leak indicates that they’ll get dual-wielding daggers. So it’s possible that a future elite specialisation could come with a power mainhand and a power offhand to go with it.

Yes, that would be for the best. Hopefully we’ll get MH and OH.

Err…i think you understand something wrong here people.

The Trait Wheel in the leaked picture is RED and thats the color for the Warrior. The Charr shown looks like a warrior. So Holosmith=Warrior Elite in the upcoming EXP. It was also said on the leaked post that warriors get daggers and the Charr in the pic is clearly holding a dagger.

The engineer wasnt leaked yet but there had been a post saying they get maces.

fashion.6712:

Err…i think you understand something wrong here people.

The Trait Wheel in the leaked picture is RED and thats the color for the Warrior. So Holosmith=Warrior Elite in the upcoming EXP. It was also said on the leaked post that warriors get daggers and the Charr in the pic is clearly holding a dagger.

The engineer wasnt leaked yet but there had been a post saying they get maces.

The wheel looks kinda orange, which is our color, but it is very hard to tell.

Its red and the Charr looks very berserkerish…its so fire themed also…

fashion.6712:

Err…i think you understand something wrong here people.

The Trait Wheel in the leaked picture is RED and thats the color for the Warrior. The Charr shown looks like a warrior. So Holosmith=Warrior Elite in the upcoming EXP. It was also said on the leaked post that warriors get daggers and the Charr in the pic is clearly holding a dagger.

The engineer wasnt leaked yet but there had been a post saying they get maces.

Unfortunately, it is you that is mistaken. The warrior’s new elite specialization is the spellbreaker, which you can easily find with a simple Google search.

The weapon icon associated with the specialization is also a sword, not a dagger. Look at spellbreaker and soulbeast and you’ll see what the dagger icon actually looks like. The holosmith is getting a sword, and you can also see that the weaver’s sword icon is identical.

You also have to remember that ArenaNet used the same races to reveal the Heart of Thorns specializations as what was used in the original class art work. The warrior was a norn. The berserker was a norn. The spellbreaker is also a norn.

Engineer is actually the only class represented by a charr, and it’d be kind of silly for them to make a point to change that now.

Been reading on Reditt the new engineer elite will be “Surveyor”. His weapon will be mace and he will get shouts. Still i am reading about the holosmith being engineer on other sites. Dunno.

It’s a high DPS spec for engi that want might stacks and . Most of the expac will feature more stuff related to day and night cycles. Their skills are more related to light skills and light fields. Their skills features support skills and warrior-esque burst skills. All the new specialization will be following the theme of day and night, and holosmith utilises the sun to utilise their light energy.

The themes are more related to tech and computers. Their mechanics are added with a resource bar that can overheat your “suit” and have different effect based on your skills.
Think of it as a rumble from League, too cold it deals less damage but recharges your skills faster, but at high heat they burst for so much more but shutdowns your other holosmith abilities.

Its somewhat like warrior adrenaline and a bit of revenant. You remove the heat with exhaust skills that can grant might or shoot laser beams. And intake skills like your heal skills or support skill that can make clones of your allies and your own.

I’m just talking out of my kitten but I think that will be the spec.

fashion.6712:

Its red and the Charr looks very berserkerish…its so fire themed also…

Except that warrior’s colour is yellow, not red. Spellbreaker is warrior’s spec, because the leaker said so, because the colours match, and because it makes absolutely no sense for warrior to get a holosmith spec, which is a strictly technological theme. Finally, the iconic engineer used for the class promo shots is a charr, while the warrior is a black norn.

The pinkish orange hue is engineer’s colour.

fashion.6712:

Been reading on Reditt the new engineer elite will be “Surveyor”. His weapon will be mace and he will get shouts. Still i am reading about the holosmith being engineer on other sites. Dunno.

Does your “surveyor” leak contain genuine concept art and was it published with other equally genuine in-game screen shots from the internal client?

People can make stuff up on Reddit, and do so all the time. They do this often to obscure facts or to just troll people, but they also often lie on Reddit to manipulate the market and drive up the price of certain consumables or crafting reagents.

The “holosmith” leak was about the most genuine-looking thing we’ve gotten so far, and included screenshots of mounts and maps alongside it. And considering I’ve already explained to you how the warrior’s elite specialization was already leaked alongside the engineer one, I’m confused you insist on disbelieving the legitimacy of it.

The only thing that’s really in dispute right now is whether the sword itself is a main-hand weapon or an off-hand weapon. The charr appears to be holding the sword with their left hand in the concept art, but it more so looks to me they’re holding with both hands. A lot of people thought this as well and assumed at first we were getting a greatsword, instead … but then the weaver (elementalist elite spec) was leaked later and contained the same sword icon.

Obviously, with all things in development, everything is subject to change. It’s very well possible the holosmith could be launched with a completely different name, concept, and weapon when all is said and done. But if the rumors are true and we’re looking at the expansion launching within the time frame of the next 6 months, I doubt ArenaNet would make such drastic changes between now and then—and this is the most genuine leak we’ve got to work with.

I hope they make holosmith more viable for PvE than scrapper. If xpac 2 will be another two years of pp condi/rifle bomber I will ditch my engi for good.

Personally I hope for group-support.
The Guard-mace for example is already giving a lot of group support, granting heal, regeneration aegis and protection to allies…
Having a sword going in that direction, it could grant class mechanic-buffs or direct group support in form of boons, condition cleanses or heals…

This is something the engi really still lacks!
Unless you count mdf, which you can link to backpack-regenerator, soothing detonation, rapid regeneration (and thus shocking speed and final salvo for superspeed). Though then you have locked half of your skill tree to chain-synergy 3 levels of traits to do roughly the group-heal of water-mage-staff-1 (or bunker down)…

This would go pretty well with shield and its increadible personal defense and CC, which nowadays nobody is taking anymore. p/s lacks the /p skills for condi and p/ is not doing any direct dmg.
s/p would only make sense with a condition-based sword, but I see a high chance here to reestablish shield in mainly WvW and some PvP settings.

Sword being power and pistol being condition is perfectly fine. Don’t forget that Celestial is already a very strong stat allocation on the engineer in WvW, and you could easily run Carrion with Intelligence sigil in PvP.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Sword being power and pistol being condition is perfectly fine. Don’t forget that Celestial is already a very strong stat allocation on the engineer in WvW, and you could easily run Carrion with Intelligence sigil in PvP.

Not to mention Viper is quite the popular choice for Engineer option as well due to how certain kits mix power and condition skills.

There is lot of talking about DPS here… And I thought that new spec will be our support spec…
I wouldn’t expect high damage on weapon. Probably AA will be something where last attack in chain: provide party buff, or provide enemy debuff (preferably unique one), or have blast finisher.
I am more interested in specialisation mechanic. As now if ANET remove toolbelt skills then it makes rest of our skills quite weaker.
Also about shouts… I just wondering how would they fit into “tool belt” category… “voice in the box”, that’s stupid… but looking at what terrible job ANET did with thief “physical skills” thematic (“I R physical” – pulls shield out of nowhere; “I R physical” – throws daggers) , I wouldn’t say that I am surprised.