Guild Wars 2

Shalien.9018:

I’ve taken the liberty to take my example UI a step further. Now it’s broken down into two images.

• In the first, you see what it looks like when you have a dodge selected
• In the second, you see what it looks like while selecting a dodge

This needs to be baseline for Daredevil so that we have the same access to Tier 3 Grandmaster Traits as all of the other elite specializations.

This.

The benefits of our dodge as GM traits do not even remotely compare to those of other specializations. I’m sure I don’t need to give any specifics its as easy as looking it up.

If something like Shalien’s suggestion is considered, it would fix just about everyone’s concern with needing a GM trait to unlock the core mechanic of the profession. At the same time, this would allow these GM traits to potentially compliment ALL if the DD’s dodges.

Al Shamari.7234:

Zodryn.4216:

With these updates I think dash is gm worthy. I say remove the damage from lotus (there’s enough reveal on other professions now to catch a condi ghost easily), and give bound a little extra something and I fully accept them as gm traits.

You could still add an interface for selecting them out if combat for convenience. No reason not to, even if they stay gm traits.

Wait, so if they remove the damage from Impaling Lotus, what’s its use?

the condi application. bound would be the dodge for damage, lotus for condi, and dash for mobility/cleanse.

the problem with lotus is that it’s impossible to control it when you need to dodge but you want to stay in stealth, whereas at least bound you can aim away from the enemies.

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

thanks for taking the time to keep us updated! i hope i’m not stretching your good faith too thin, but is it possible for you to give us, in broad strokes, the general things that are still being discussed regarding daredevil (and maybe thief as a whole, since there are still some things that could be changed there)? that would help us direct our feedback to more relevant topics, instead of firing in every direction and hoping one of them is what you were looking for. i’ll understand if it’s unfeasible for whatever reason though, just thought it could help direct the discussion now that the dodges are apparently moving to a good place.

Karl McLain.5604:

note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

Personally, this is the kind of response I like coming from the Dev because in a single sentence it tells me that they’ve actually tested what they are posting. I don’t really need specifics just to know that thy actually run the numbers, or tested the animation, etc.

Thanks Karl, keep us updated.

Karl McLain.5604:

As for a shadowstep dodge: It’s not really in-theme for the daredevil, being a more of a physical-moving type of specialization. We’ve definitely talked about it internally.

While i obviously respect your design decisions and vision for each elite spec, personally i would have liked Elite professions to have their own theme and enhance/augment/have synergy with current traits and weapon set (the warrior Elite spec does this pretty well)

I think you could still achieve the physical style theme of the elite but have different ways to achieve it. On some of the livestreams you spoke about the top/middle/bottom of certain elite traits having a definite theme (such as Reaper) and it would be nice to have Daredevil follow suit. Perhaps Gambit /Daredevil/Nightcrawler

Anyway this was just some ideas I had for traits that might have synergy with existing weapon sets and trait lines (just in case you needed ideas for new GM traits hoho)

As others have said give a toggle dodge button on f3 f4 f5
Add a daze to staff 4 because it needed something extra and see below
Add new GM traits (ideas below)
Remove vulnerability from staff auto attack 3rd chain and add an evade

Traits GM
Shadow Armor – Gain Protection (2s) when you sucessfully evade an attack

Skulk in shadows – gain resistance while in stealth – drains 1 ini every second (this could synergise with ’Shadow rejuvenation, nullifying the ini gain from that trait, it would also help thief survive the insane aoe conditions currently in game)

Physical fitness – Staff and Physical skills deal more damage (1% per unspent initiative)

GM Minor
Endurance Thief – Gain Endurance when you succesfully steal from an enemy

Traits Master
Passive Defense Take reduced damage per initiative (1 ini = (-) 1% dmg)

Slip away – Gain stealth (2s) and superspeed (2 secs) when you daze a foe

(this would give old sets like PP SP ways to get stealth and also staff if you added a daze to staff 4)
Escapist’s Absolution – Remove a condition when you evade an attack

Master Minor
Driven Fortitude – Gain Health when you sucessfully evade an attack

Traits Adept
Staff Master – Gain a stacking toughness buff while wielding a staff (400 toughness) resets on gaining stealth or swapping weapons (this is not crazy – scrapper has a 500 toughness buff)

Quickital Wits – Critical hits reduce weapon swap (by 1 sec – 1 sec cool down)

Brawlers Tenacity – Gain Endurance when you first activate a physical skill. Physical skills have a reduced cooldown 20%

Adept Minor
Gain access to the physical skill catagory, enhanced dodges, staff weapon type and your maximum endurance threshold is increased.

I think each line on these traits has a separate flavor – tank -evasive-dmg, they augment current weapon sets and existing traits and keep in theme with the physical premise.

(PS Daredevil already has a shadowstep with steal)

Really nice change there, really liking that, not too concern on shadow refuge,

Quick question for Karl if he is still around, has any progress made about being interrupted during a dodge and wasting endurance? Or any word of this being address already?

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

How about we increase the radius of the shadow refuge util???. keep the number of pulses and players effected with stealth the same.

Just wanna say TKS to Karl and the team for all the effort!

Al Shamari.7234:

Zodryn.4216:

With these updates I think dash is gm worthy. I say remove the damage from lotus (there’s enough reveal on other professions now to catch a condi ghost easily), and give bound a little extra something and I fully accept them as gm traits.

You could still add an interface for selecting them out if combat for convenience. No reason not to, even if they stay gm traits.

Wait, so if they remove the damage from Impaling Lotus, what’s its use?

Condi. No direct damage means it doesn’t reveal and supports a condi ghost style.

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

This is great, Karl. The distance was one of the most distinguishing features of the dash, so it’s great that the tech was so quickly developed in reaction to player feedback. For me, the SR interaction is acceptable, especially given the nature of what this particular dodge type gives you.

I’m really hopeful about the animations, but functionally this looks to be in a really good place now.

OH MAN. KARL McLAIN is on a killing spree. from edge to Edge uh? More challenging mini-tricks we need to master.

Dash was my least favorite, but I can tell with that extra distance and immo break, Dash has some real competition.

He mentioned Lotus training to not be a jump anymore… what does it look like now? A regular dodge with daggers all over the place?

Again, ty Devsan

Kanto.6284:

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

How about we increase the radius of the shadow refuge util???. keep the number of pulses and players effected with stealth the same.

I would 2nd the increase to shadow refuge if this is one of the only concerns with the new dash. I personally don’t use it that often but if an Engineer can stealth a group the same I don’t think this would be a bad up advantage to still having a thief doing it like a boss. We are “supposed” to be the masters of stealth by the way.

Its not “one more dodge per encounter” it’s “when any other profession would be out of endurance and stuck in a one-shot death zone you are sitting pretty — repeat as many times as you manage your endurance/vigor well.”

That’s not true at all. Once you’ve used your three dodges, you’re left with no more endurance than any other class, and don’t gain the ability to dodge again any sooner than they would. It Is just “one more dodge per encounter,” assuming that you’re dodging frequently, which, as a thief, you should be.

The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.

Nice. Now all we need, and we really NEED this, is a button we can press that will toggle between Dash and one of the other dodge options, so that I can use Dash when I’m out of combat to cross the map faster, but switch to Lotus while in combat to do more damage. This needs to happen and is not optional.

There are far more skilled thief players than me here — I’d love to see their efforts focus on more modest changes that can help make the Daredevil more competitive and might actually come to pass.

There are no modest changes that would make the Daredevil fun to play. The only changes that are worth making are fairly significant ones. No point shifting the deck chairs if you can’t do anything about the crack in the hull. They could just put Feline Grace back, that would go a long way. Flip a switch, done.

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

So this might be an odd question and I might have to wait till the BWE to find out. But what exactly are we talking about when you say “faster-than-running speed”? I love the Dash concept, specially after the cancel immobilization add. I also like the idea of the 450 distance. At 360 this wasn’t as big of a concern but now that it is 450 I have to ask, what are we expecting in the way of disconnects. I will admit I don’t pvp often. I prefer PvE and PVP when the occasion fancies. I am big into raids, looking forward to raiding in GW2. However my biggest concern is loss of damage due to disconnects? Swiftness is nice, but I am already using traveler’s runes and don’t see a huge boost with current swiftness boons. I want to know what is going to get me back into the fight as quickly as getting me out of it? I am a bit old school and prefer my dagger/dagger. I would hate to waste heart seeker on this. I would say I would prefer a shorter swiftness duration for a higher swiftness movement burst. Super Swiftness (50% run speed) for 3 seconds would be interesting for this disconnect.

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

Is it possible Vault works on Vertical axis?

Driften.8716:

So this might be an odd question and I might have to wait till the BWE to find out. But what exactly are we talking about when you say “faster-than-running speed”?

Basically, the Dash covering the 450 range faster than you can while running normally.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Al Shamari.7234:

Zodryn.4216:

With these updates I think dash is gm worthy. I say remove the damage from lotus (there’s enough reveal on other professions now to catch a condi ghost easily), and give bound a little extra something and I fully accept them as gm traits.

You could still add an interface for selecting them out if combat for convenience. No reason not to, even if they stay gm traits.

Wait, so if they remove the damage from Impaling Lotus, what’s its use?

the condi application. bound would be the dodge for damage, lotus for condi, and dash for mobility/cleanse.

the problem with lotus is that it’s impossible to control it when you need to dodge but you want to stay in stealth, whereas at least bound you can aim away from the enemies.

I tend to not wanting to use stealth in a dd build and prefer that upfront damge for SOM procs meaning a dodge can garner 1K plus health.

Karl. I know the extra distance (450)in Dash is helpful in certain areas, but I preferred the 300 distance on Dash. Not being able to use Shadow Refuge defensively because we can’t dodge in it is huge in my opinion (barring some crazy positioning). Thank you for your work and for the communication, but I will not playing Staff and most likely will not be using Daredevil. It seems like you are trying to get us away from using stealth, while granting other classes more access to it (which I think is fair), but I am not happy with the changes and wish you well with your job because I know that it is a tough one.

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

Great news keep up the good work guys! As others have mentioned please keep updating us whenever you can. Don’t leave the thief class and it’s elite spec out of the loop, in the months to come

Karl,

It’s good to see all the progress on Dash—between the Immobilize break and the restoration of its original range, it should be worth using now (although much like Lotus, the way Dash interacts with Shadow Refuge still needs work).

That aside, people are still waiting for a formal statement on the status of getting real Grandmaster traits and the new Dodges coming from some other source. I noticed that your last reply came in the middle of two pages worth of discussion on this topic. Don’t think you can continue to ignore it. The missing Grandmaster traits are right behind Staff animations as people’s biggest concern by a mile. We need to hear something from you on this, even if it’s “time is limited and we won’t be able to get you real Grandmaster traits until after launch”. Honesty is the best policy, my friend

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

Now that’s a meaningful choice that might give a nice buff to P/P viability. Can we please get any comment at all on core thief issues? Even a “We’re looking at updates as part of HoT for all existing traits across all classes” would be nice.

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

oh, noooooooo,Karl

it was not only Shadow refuge, if you fight a guys, the extra distance will make you run out of the target, when im use daredevil with my S/D thief, 360distance is not good at melee fighting , and now 450…..you just

attack→run away→run back→attack..this is terrible

the normal S/D style is usually be attack→dodge around target→attack, this is what we need

pls, cut that extra distance ,it just sound cool on paper, not good in the game!!!

Amante.8109:

The missing Grandmaster traits are right behind Staff animations as people’s biggest concern by a mile. We need to hear something from you on this, even if it’s “time is limited and we won’t be able to get you real Grandmaster traits until after launch”. Honesty is the best policy, my friend

I couldn’t agree more. I just wish animation updates were something they were planning on doing.

Arlowslol.1974:

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

oh, noooooooo,Karl

it was not only Shadow refuge, if you fight a guys, the extra distance will make you run out of the target, when im use daredevil with my S/D thief, 360distance is not good at melee fighting , and now 450…..you just

attack->run away->run back->attack..this is terrible

the normal S/D style is usually be attack->dodge around target->attack, this is what we need

pls, cut that extra distance ,it just sound cool on paper, not good in the game!!!

Then run Bound…lol.

The point of Dash is for mobility, if you don’t like moving away from your targets then run the dodge that deals damage and is more focused on staying near the target.

Also to the people complaining about SR; I don’t see why you’re running SR in the first place on a Daredevil, you have enough sustain to run without it. I think it’s good that it’s pushing away from stealth, considering the whole point of Daredevil’s sustain is centered around evasion. Doesn’t make sense for you to have much stealth, plus revealed is being tossed around like candy to other classes. Just saying you’re gonna have a hard time trying to force running SR.

Arlowslol.1974:

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

oh, noooooooo,Karl

it was not only Shadow refuge, if you fight a guys, the extra distance will make you run out of the target, when im use daredevil with my S/D thief, 360distance is not good at melee fighting , and now 450…..you just

attack->run away->run back->attack..this is terrible

the normal S/D style is usually be attack->dodge around target->attack, this is what we need

pls, cut that extra distance ,it just sound cool on paper, not good in the game!!!

Then dash isn’t a good choice for your build. That’s why dash isn’t the only option. Dash is a mobility dodge to rapidly move between targets or kite with. if you want to stick with a target , run lotus to cripple them and make your job easier, or bound for increased damage.

It’s actually great in the game for the purpose it’s designed for, moving around well in team fights or for ranged pistol builds.

PopeUrban.2578:

Arlowslol.1974:

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

oh, noooooooo,Karl

it was not only Shadow refuge, if you fight a guys, the extra distance will make you run out of the target, when im use daredevil with my S/D thief, 360distance is not good at melee fighting , and now 450…..you just

attack->run away->run back->attack..this is terrible

the normal S/D style is usually be attack->dodge around target->attack, this is what we need

pls, cut that extra distance ,it just sound cool on paper, not good in the game!!!

Then dash isn’t a good choice for your build. That’s why dash isn’t the only option. Dash is a mobility dodge to rapidly move between targets or kite with. if you want to stick with a target , run lotus to cripple them and make your job easier, or bound for increased damage.

It’s actually great in the game for the purpose it’s designed for, moving around well in team fights or for ranged pistol builds.

I choose dash for condi cleans and swiftness.

why the new dodge is worst than the old ones?

the 150 distance for dodge is just a joke, we have swiftnesss for the

mobility, extra distance is trash for every thing. have you play daredevill before ?

or you guys just doesnt play SPVP?

alchemyst.2165:

Arlowslol.1974:

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

oh, noooooooo,Karl

it was not only Shadow refuge, if you fight a guys, the extra distance will make you run out of the target, when im use daredevil with my S/D thief, 360distance is not good at melee fighting , and now 450…..you just

attack->run away->run back->attack..this is terrible

the normal S/D style is usually be attack->dodge around target->attack, this is what we need

pls, cut that extra distance ,it just sound cool on paper, not good in the game!!!

Then run Bound…lol.

The point of Dash is for mobility, if you don’t like moving away from your targets then run the dodge that deals damage and is more focused on staying near the target.

Also to the people complaining about SR; I don’t see why you’re running SR in the first place on a Daredevil, you have enough sustain to run without it. I think it’s good that it’s pushing away from stealth, considering the whole point of Daredevil’s sustain is centered around evasion. Doesn’t make sense for you to have much stealth, plus revealed is being tossed around like candy to other classes. Just saying you’re gonna have a hard time trying to force running SR.

150 diatance is not mobility, it’s trash.we choose Dash for cleans and swiftness, not just run away .

Arlowslol.1974:

PopeUrban.2578:

Arlowslol.1974:

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

oh, noooooooo,Karl

it was not only Shadow refuge, if you fight a guys, the extra distance will make you run out of the target, when im use daredevil with my S/D thief, 360distance is not good at melee fighting , and now 450…..you just

attack->run away->run back->attack..this is terrible

the normal S/D style is usually be attack->dodge around target->attack, this is what we need

pls, cut that extra distance ,it just sound cool on paper, not good in the game!!!

Then dash isn’t a good choice for your build. That’s why dash isn’t the only option. Dash is a mobility dodge to rapidly move between targets or kite with. if you want to stick with a target , run lotus to cripple them and make your job easier, or bound for increased damage.

It’s actually great in the game for the purpose it’s designed for, moving around well in team fights or for ranged pistol builds.

I choose dash for condi cleans and swiftness.

why the new dodge is worst than the old ones?

the 150 distance for dodge is just a joke, we have swiftnesss for the

mobility, extra distance is trash for every thing. have you play daredevill before ?

or you guys just doesnt play SPVP?

…wut? lol

You’re not supposed to have the cleanse, swiftness, AND easily stay in melee range. That’s the freakin’ point. Its intended to be a dodge used for zipping around, not harassing single targets.

That is why Lotus, a dodge that is much better against single targets than multiples exists

However, for people that actually want to move around the battlefield faster/better to hit more opponents, get to points even faster, or maintain range dash is the obvious choice which is why it is designed that way

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

Hey Karl,

Out of curiosity have you guys played around with superspeed on dash?

Something like “Dash applies swiftness for X seconds, if you successfully evade while dashing gain superspeed for Y seconds”

For those concerned with positioning with the higher range evade: dagger auto has 130 range. If you attack, then dodge towards the enemy, that puts you roughly 300 units away (not 320 because hitboxes), which is only 170 units outside auto range. It’s not like you’ll always end up miles away from melee range when you dodge. Also, just consider it’s use in SR a challenge. It’s not impossible, just tricky.

Shockwave.1230:

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

Hey Karl,

Out of curiosity have you guys played around with superspeed on dash?

Something like “Dash applies swiftness for X seconds, if you successfully evade while dashing gain superspeed for Y seconds”

I’m going to guess that’s what this version of dash kinda is. A hidden super super speed (hyper speed?) buff with a forced evading run towards a given direction(with all the other benefits).
The distance you can cover in combat under super speed is 420 units per sec
(210 unit/sec base with 100% from SS)
Dash now does 450 in 3/4s

I think the changes and tweaks substantive enough to have me looking forward to the next beta. I know we are not there yet with the thief overall but DD spec gets closer and I do want to try it out again

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

I appreciate your work Karl but i think We need to consider the real thief and DD status.

New dodges are a nightmare for the synergy with SR, New dodges are GM traits and basically are nerfing the SR usability. Honestly GM traits that nerf one of the best thief skills + Anti-reveal meta on HoT will be really too much.

Basically i don’t think you’re buffing the open field mobility in the right way.

Our open field mobility is super linked to SB#5. That’s all.

You need to give us an alternative to SB#5 if you want to buff open field mobility.

Vault is a good candidate (at least staff would make sense) if it could work on vertical axis with and evade frame + more range (ofc less damage). This + a dodge with 450 range could be interesting like mobility, considering they are GM traits that nerf SR usability.

But in the current Vaul state a dash like this is only a pure nerf. The other alternative is making damage during the dodge, so the synergy with SR is always bad.

Pls consider this point, Thief future scenario is already really bad, we really don’t need auto-nerf.

Phil.8901:

I appreciate your work Karl but i think We need to consider the real thief and DD status.

New dodges are a nightmare for the synergy with SR, New dodges are GM traits and basically are nerfing the SR usability. Honestly GM traits that nerf one of the best thief skills + Anti-reveal meta on HoT will be really too much.

Basically i don’t think you’re buffing the open field mobility in the right way.

Our open field mobility is super linked to SB#5. That’s all.

You need to give us an alternative to SB#5 if you want to buff open field mobility.

Vault is a good candidate (at least staff would make sense) if it could work on vertical axis with and evade frame + more range (ofc less damage). This + a dodge with 450 range could be interesting like mobility, considering they are GM traits that nerf SR usability.

But in the current state a dash like this is only a pure nerf. The other alternative is making damage during the dodge, so the synergy with SR is always bad.

Pls consider this point, Thief future scenario is already really bad, we really don’t need auto-nerf.

I kind of want to talk about these points, since they are good points, but I also think they are missing the idea behind DD a little.

When DD was first presented to us, it was supposed to be a fighter, brawler, etc. type of spec. To achieve that, DD gives up a lot of its stealth (if not all), and trades that for evasion and sustain. With that in mind, I think that it is good that this spec discourages us from trying to also take stealth. The issue here is that maybe we aren’t being rewarded enough for giving up such a huge part of our survivability.

This then brings me to my next point…I think that a lot of issues with DD come from issues that aren’t addressed in the core thief. The biggest offender in my opinion is shortbow. Thematically, the thief/rogue archetype should be mobile and fast. The problem here is that almost ALL of our speed and mobility in the core thief class is placed in shortbow. Trying to get around without the shortbow is pretty miserable. This is why I’d like to see the mobility offered by shortbow taken down a notch, and redistributed across the rest of the class. In other words, I think the thief should be mobile regardless of what weapons he/she takes. If done well, this should open up a lot of diversity, since thieves wanting maximum mobility can still take shortbow and move across the map quickly but sacrifice some power for it, and thieves who want to fight are still reasonably fast, though not as fast as with their mobility tools, and can contend with opponents they engage on.

In regards to this Shadow Refuge dodge inside issue. If this is done right, you won’t need it.

SR has been a tool Thieves have used to reset the fight in the past, but if DD is built correctly with efficient abilities and sustainability….

You won’t even need it. Yes, there are a lot of “if’s” but i’m optimistic. So far Karl has made the correct changes and is definitely putting the DD in the direction it needs to go in.

here are some idea for Dash

if you have a target then dash 300

if not then Dash 450

we have a choice to switch the long distance and short will solve the problem

babazhook.6805:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Al Shamari.7234:

Zodryn.4216:

With these updates I think dash is gm worthy. I say remove the damage from lotus (there’s enough reveal on other professions now to catch a condi ghost easily), and give bound a little extra something and I fully accept them as gm traits.

You could still add an interface for selecting them out if combat for convenience. No reason not to, even if they stay gm traits.

Wait, so if they remove the damage from Impaling Lotus, what’s its use?

the condi application. bound would be the dodge for damage, lotus for condi, and dash for mobility/cleanse.

the problem with lotus is that it’s impossible to control it when you need to dodge but you want to stay in stealth, whereas at least bound you can aim away from the enemies.

I tend to not wanting to use stealth in a dd build and prefer that upfront damge for SOM procs meaning a dodge can garner 1K plus health.

P/D thieves are also condi, and far more reliant on stealth :P

alchemyst.2165:

Also to the people complaining about SR; I don’t see why you’re running SR in the first place on a Daredevil, you have enough sustain to run without it. I think it’s good that it’s pushing away from stealth, considering the whole point of Daredevil’s sustain is centered around evasion. Doesn’t make sense for you to have much stealth, plus revealed is being tossed around like candy to other classes. Just saying you’re gonna have a hard time trying to force running SR.

i don’t agree with the complaints, but i felt the need to address why people would be running SR with daredevil:

shadow refuge is simply the strongest skill the thief has in the whole game. it’s not just a skill to get long stealths, it’s a powerful disengage tool, a panic button, a self rez skill, an anti-stomp skill that rezzes at the same time, a powerful group opener… it’s everything. it’s got so much support and utility that it would be preposterous to not bring shadow refuge in any competitive scenario. no other utility skill can compete with it. hell, they could make SR an elite skill and it would fit right in, while still being picked over anything else the thief has to offer. it’s not brought up because you’re in a stealth build. stealth builds don’t use SR to get stealth, they have access to it through other means. SR is brought for… well, everything else i said.

oh yeah, and it can be used from a pretty decent range on a fairly low cast time.

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Al Shamari.7234:

Zodryn.4216:

With these updates I think dash is gm worthy. I say remove the damage from lotus (there’s enough reveal on other professions now to catch a condi ghost easily), and give bound a little extra something and I fully accept them as gm traits.

You could still add an interface for selecting them out if combat for convenience. No reason not to, even if they stay gm traits.

Wait, so if they remove the damage from Impaling Lotus, what’s its use?

the condi application. bound would be the dodge for damage, lotus for condi, and dash for mobility/cleanse.

the problem with lotus is that it’s impossible to control it when you need to dodge but you want to stay in stealth, whereas at least bound you can aim away from the enemies.

I tend to not wanting to use stealth in a dd build and prefer that upfront damge for SOM procs meaning a dodge can garner 1K plus health.

P/D thieves are also condi, and far more reliant on stealth :P

There little need for p/d to dodge in stealth outside setting up in Shadow refuge, Shadow refuge can be set up outside the range of the Impaling lotus. SR will see much less use with the reveals we will be seeing and will be a death sentence in many cases.

With SOM traited a thief can double up on heals with damage inflicted from impaling lotus coupled with the heal on evade trait which would be far greater benefit then those times one needs to dodge whle stealthed. In game terms even in a p/d build i suggest the number of times one dodges while stealthed as compared to regular dodge is about 1 in 30. Indeed the only time I ever see a need for it is with SR which one can cast once very 60 seconds.

People need to accept that not everything is going to perfectly synergize. No matter how useful SR might be, not everyone uses it. In sPvP yeah sure! but PVE, WvW? Not necessarily.

Designing the new dodges to accommodate a skill that not everyone uses makes no sense, especially when said skill (SR) does little to compliment the Daredevil playstyle.

It’s very simple guys, if you want to use SR and be able to pull off reliable dodges within the circle, don’t take Dash.

Bloodwine.6450:

People need to accept that not everything is going to perfectly synergize. No matter how useful SR might be, not everyone uses it. In sPvP yeah sure! but PVE, WvW? Not necessarily.

Designing the new dodges to accommodate a skill that not everyone uses makes no sense, especially when said skill (SR) does little to compliment the Daredevil playstyle.

It’s very simple guys, if you want to use SR and be able to pull off reliable dodges within the circle, don’t take Dash.

If you take the other 2 dodges, the dodge damage will reveal you if there is someone is in the range.

So no, gm traits are all bad options with SR.

Btw if you want to drop SR, thief needs a completely new source of defense to survive.

The old broken s/d with the old feline grace needed SR to survive.

Every meta thief build in the past and in the present needed SR.

Without SR, thief is pure garbage.

DD, with acrobatics too, can’t survive with only dodges without SR.

And we have also bandit’ s defense with more 5 s on cd.

Phil.8901:

If you take the other 2 dodges, the dodge damage will reveal you if there is someone is in the range.

So no, gm traits are all bad options with SR.

Btw if you want to drop SR, thief needs a completely new source of defense to survive.

The old broken s/d with the old feline grace needed SR to survive.

Every meta thief build in the past and in the present needed SR.

Without SR, thief is pure garbage.

DD, with acrobatics too, can’t survive with only dodges without SR.

And we have also bandit’ s defense with more 5 s on cd.

I think what you’ve said highlights a pretty big issue about thief. What should happen, then, is to have thief as a whole be reworked to be able to survive without SR…not build more on it.

Edit: this is going to take a bit of time though, but I think it is still more important for Daredevil to be self-defining as something different from the core thief…and that means not relying on SR to survive.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

Phil.8901:

If you take the other 2 dodges, the dodge damage will reveal you if there is someone is in the range.

So no, gm traits are all bad options with SR.

Btw if you want to drop SR, thief needs a completely new source of defense to survive.

The old broken s/d with the old feline grace needed SR to survive.

Every meta thief build in the past and in the present needed SR.

Without SR, thief is pure garbage.

DD, with acrobatics too, can’t survive with only dodges without SR.

And we have also bandit’ s defense with more 5 s on cd.

I think what you’ve said highlights a pretty big issue about thief. What should happen, then, is to have thief as a whole be reworked to be able to survive without SR…not build more on it.

Edit: this is going to take a bit of time though, but I think it is still more important for Daredevil to be self-defining as something different from the core thief…and that means not relying on SR to survive.

Daredevil is still 2/3 core thief, and core thief is weak and busted. That’s what we are all saying. You can’t have a well balanced daredevil if thief itself is already in the crapper for survivability, as you then resort to placing all the survivability in daredevil, which hamstrings core traits in the future, writing a never ending string of “all defensive stuff” elite specs because the class as a whole can’t survive with its innate defensive lines.

Again, DD is not the problem, core thief is the problem with most of DD’s failings that aren’t just buggy or lazy animation issues.

However, the last time we got a designer to buff thieves in a meaningful way, it was reverted within two months because people complained they couldn’t roll face across the keyboard and beat thieves any more.

babazhook.6805:

BrunoBRS.5178:

babazhook.6805:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Al Shamari.7234:

Zodryn.4216:

With these updates I think dash is gm worthy. I say remove the damage from lotus (there’s enough reveal on other professions now to catch a condi ghost easily), and give bound a little extra something and I fully accept them as gm traits.

You could still add an interface for selecting them out if combat for convenience. No reason not to, even if they stay gm traits.

Wait, so if they remove the damage from Impaling Lotus, what’s its use?

the condi application. bound would be the dodge for damage, lotus for condi, and dash for mobility/cleanse.

the problem with lotus is that it’s impossible to control it when you need to dodge but you want to stay in stealth, whereas at least bound you can aim away from the enemies.

I tend to not wanting to use stealth in a dd build and prefer that upfront damge for SOM procs meaning a dodge can garner 1K plus health.

P/D thieves are also condi, and far more reliant on stealth :P

There little need for p/d to dodge in stealth outside setting up in Shadow refuge, Shadow refuge can be set up outside the range of the Impaling lotus. SR will see much less use with the reveals we will be seeing and will be a death sentence in many cases.

With SOM traited a thief can double up on heals with damage inflicted from impaling lotus coupled with the heal on evade trait which would be far greater benefit then those times one needs to dodge whle stealthed. In game terms even in a p/d build i suggest the number of times one dodges while stealthed as compared to regular dodge is about 1 in 30. Indeed the only time I ever see a need for it is with SR which one can cast once very 60 seconds.

Nope there is very much needs for p/d to dodge in stealth CnD is melee may I remind you? Also CiS and SRej are next to each other unknown reasons so even more now. Ballerina thieves are still less effective than p/d so that is something to remember.

Glad to hear all of these changes.

Any word about the Impact Strike chain basically only working once you’ve already won?

Karl McLain.5604:

Re: Dash update!
The original reason we had removed the extra distance on Dash was that we lacked the tech. Since that post, it’s been resolved. Thus, the distance of Dash is back, with a fervor. Now you’ll travel a full 450, up from the 360 previous (~300 base dodge), while moving at a faster-than-running speed. Swiftness duration increased to 10 seconds, up from the 8 we talked about originally.
This thing’s about solid movement, so we’re going to push it in that direction for this BWE. Please check it out and let us know how you feel about it. The animation’s going to remain as your character’s run for now.
We are aware that this new distance will cause some de-sync in synergy with Shadow Refuge, but feel that the open-field movement capability for daredevil needs to take precedence over this abliity. note: You can still dodge from edge-to-edge and remain inside the field, but it’s pretty tricky.

Thanks for the update Karl. If possible, please can you clarify about the immobilize removal. Is this still part of the dodge, or has this been removed now the extra distance has been restored? The immob removal would be great, but I would understand if it was removed again, as the extra distance is going to make this a superb addition to a mobility setup as it is.

I saw the implementation of the dodges in the UI and thought of new GM traits. So what if we could choose 1 out of 3(+1 for standard dodge?) dodges.
1 would be increased dodge distance
2 would be leap finisher dodge
3 would be whirl finisher dodge

The GM traits could be independent of the type of dodge, so something like
1: Gain swiftness and remove immobilizing conditions when you dodge
2: Throw out 2 daggers that do some conditions when you dodge
3: Deal damage at the end of your dodge roll

That way, we could customise our dodges more freely while still being able to pick a dodge that can be used without rolling out of Shadow Refuge.

BrunoBRS.5178:

alchemyst.2165:

Also to the people complaining about SR; I don’t see why you’re running SR in the first place on a Daredevil, you have enough sustain to run without it. I think it’s good that it’s pushing away from stealth, considering the whole point of Daredevil’s sustain is centered around evasion. Doesn’t make sense for you to have much stealth, plus revealed is being tossed around like candy to other classes. Just saying you’re gonna have a hard time trying to force running SR.

i don’t agree with the complaints, but i felt the need to address why people would be running SR with daredevil:

shadow refuge is simply the strongest skill the thief has in the whole game. it’s not just a skill to get long stealths, it’s a powerful disengage tool, a panic button, a self rez skill, an anti-stomp skill that rezzes at the same time, a powerful group opener… it’s everything. it’s got so much support and utility that it would be preposterous to not bring shadow refuge in any competitive scenario. no other utility skill can compete with it. hell, they could make SR an elite skill and it would fit right in, while still being picked over anything else the thief has to offer. it’s not brought up because you’re in a stealth build. stealth builds don’t use SR to get stealth, they have access to it through other means. SR is brought for… well, everything else i said.

oh yeah, and it can be used from a pretty decent range on a fairly low cast time.

Yeah I can see why you’re saying that, I just don’t think you need it with daredevil because with daredevil, I feel like your role can change quite a bit. You can be more of a 1v1er/bruiser, and while SR helps in team fights, I just don’t feel like that’s really your job any more as a daredevil, you know? I mean you can certainly run it, but I took signet of agility over it and had great success. It’s still support and helps out a lot. I think people just don’t want to step out of their comfort zone with thief, because I really do think your role can change with this traitline.

Idk just my thoughts. Would love to hear some more thoughts about this.

Nike.2631:

Shalien.9018:

I’m sorry man but if a Thief has full endurance mid encounter they’re not doing something right. They have 2 traits in the Daredevil line based on not having full endurance and the new heal is based on not having full endurance.

Read. What. You. Just. Wrote.

There are other professions in game that have bonuses when they have less than max endurance. Daredevil is the only profession in the game that can still be sitting on 2 dodges for emergencies (the maximum safety margin for most folks) and still proc those traits.

The Daredevil’s benefit of 3 endurance bars is MONSTEROUSLY powerful. It’s a third pulse of on-demand godmode combined with a deeper cistern to trap time/vigor. Don’t let the simplicity fool you: it shames most of the other Espec mechanics for raw power and people here are treating it like a footnote. Its not “one more dodge per encounter” it’s “when any other profession would be out of endurance and stuck in a one-shot death zone you are sitting pretty — repeat as many times as you manage your endurance/vigor well.”

No it is not that powerful. Theif has had it for years if you knew anything about the class.. Felines grace (which was a MINOR trait) allowed for three dodges. They simply removed this a few months ago to slap the daredevils third dodge on which actually is less effective than feline once was. Guess what, theif was still underpowered during that time. You keep bringing up other classes and their dodges opposed to theif, news flash, theif has no hp/ defenses unlike the multitude of kitten other classes have. Thief depends on stealth and dodge to survive, so don’t go throwing out your bullkitten when you don’t know the class.