Guild Wars 2

I really do not think the dodges being locked behind GM traits that big am issue nor do I think we need to count up the total number of traits so as to somehow “prove” a spec line inferior.

As long as the benefits of a dodge are GM trait + worthy it is fine.

Take the simplest example because it easiest to make a direct comparisons. Dont stop is a GM trait in the Acro line and for those that use it not a bad trait at all. it quite good really. It decreases the effects of crippled and chilled by 2/3rds and converts Immob to a chill on a 10 second cooldown.

The New dodge version Unhindered Combat removes Immob removes chiiled removes crippled, provides a long range dash with that evade we used to get from a plain dodge and grants swiftness. There no cooldown outside your supply of endurance.

This is vastly superior to Don’t Stop. Were we to remove all of the benefits but swiftness and the long range dash and then add a GM trait like upper hand to the GM slot we would be no farther ahead even though we can count and get as many traits as other classes.

The other two “dodge” types might need a bit more tinkering but if the all the benefits gleaned from one of these new dodges offers as much as unhindered combat does we are fine and especially if we can get a drop down toggle.

babazhook.6805:

I really do not think the dodges being locked behind GM traits that big am issue nor do I think we need to count up the total number of traits so as to somehow “prove” a spec line inferior.

As long as the benefits of a dodge are GM trait + worthy it is fine.

Take the simplest example because it easiest to make a direct comparisons. Dont stop is a GM trait in the Acro line and for those that use it not a bad trait at all. it quite good really. It decreases the effects of crippled and chilled by 2/3rds and converts Immob to a chill on a 10 second cooldown.

The New dodge version Unhindered Combat removes Immob removes chiiled removes crippled, provides a long range dash with that evade we used to get from a plain dodge and grants swiftness. There no cooldown outside your supply of endurance.

This is vastly superior to Don’t Stop. Were we to remove all of the benefits but swiftness and the long range dash and then add a GM trait like upper hand to the GM slot we would be no farther ahead even though we can count and get as many traits as other classes.

The other two “dodge” types might need a bit more tinkering but if the all the benefits gleaned from one of these new dodges offers as much as unhindered combat does we are fine and especially if we can get a drop down toggle.

same

The benefits the dodges offer is not the problem. The problem is that they are attached to Grandmaster traits for no discernible reason other than that was likely how they were first prototyped internally and no one bothered to change it.

The dodges are clearly meant to be the “sizzle” of the elite specialization, as evidenced by how Daredevil has been advertised so far. No other elite specialization has their selling point attached to Grandmaster traits. None.

To make matters worse, the extra dodge from the first Daredevil minor is extremely underwhelming. It doesn’t scale base endurance regeneration, and effects that claim to restore 50% to 100% of Endurance only restore a smaller, flat amount for the Daredevil.

In other words, Karl has a choice to make: either decouple the dodges from the GM traits, or make the first minor more synergistic and powerful. To do neither would be undeniable developmental neglect.

Amante.8109:

A number of people have already gotten refunds through sending a support ticket.

Thanks, I’ll do that. At first I was really hyped, but now I’m not so happy handing them £50 or whatever if my favourite class is just getting trashed.

I really hope they do something about Thief general squishiness, tbh. If DD is meant to stay in the fight, I can’t keep getting 2 hit by normal attacks. Stealth with a regular dagger build, or even a sword build, solves this problem by allowing us to shrug aggro and burst things down quickly. I found that any time I used Vault, I got absolutely destroyed. Anytime I didn’t have enough initiative to keep applying blinds and weaknesses, I got destroyed… and not only that, but while spending initiative keeping up survival conditions, I wasn’t doing any damage. For DD to be the “stay in the fight” spec, it needs more base survival and more damage across skills that aren’t Vault. Right now I think any regular sword build does a better job of surviving and dealing damage than DD does.

Get your refunds now and make them work for it, don’t let them throw bones at ya!!

You know it’s bad when…

The players are holding their decision to buy as a bargaining chip to hopefully improve their class.

That’s not actually unusual in the MMO industry. You see that sort of bargaining all the time. It is by a large an empty threat as most people invested enough to make the threat are thoroughly hooked.

Nike.2631:

That’s not actually unusual in the MMO industry. You see that sort of bargaining all the time. It is by a large an empty threat as most people invested enough to make the threat are thoroughly hooked.

True to a degree.

Though, like that HoT Price thread that has +130 pages… You know something wrong is going on. I mean, at the very least, it’s an indication – Might be the longest forum thread that I’ve seen – might be.

Zero Day.2594:

Nike.2631:

That’s not actually unusual in the MMO industry. You see that sort of bargaining all the time. It is by a large an empty threat as most people invested enough to make the threat are thoroughly hooked.

True to a degree.

Though, like that HoT Price thread that has +130 pages… You know something wrong is going on. I mean, at the very least, it’s an indication – Might be the longest forum thread that I’ve seen – might be.

The problem is thief is just a class so they don’t really care. You could get HoT for something else or another class since most rerolled.

Karl,

Please don’t ignore.

Do you mind opening a thread listing all the items which you would like to change?

I would appreciate if you could discuss with us about what we would like to have for thief class.

I saw in tempest thread that you were asking the community what changes they would like to see on tempest.

This will avoid people creating hundreds of thread in this forum.

babazhook.6805:

I really do not think the dodges being locked behind GM traits that big am issue nor do I think we need to count up the total number of traits so as to somehow “prove” a spec line inferior.

As long as the benefits of a dodge are GM trait + worthy it is fine.

Take the simplest example because it easiest to make a direct comparisons. Dont stop is a GM trait in the Acro line and for those that use it not a bad trait at all. it quite good really. It decreases the effects of crippled and chilled by 2/3rds and converts Immob to a chill on a 10 second cooldown.

The New dodge version Unhindered Combat removes Immob removes chiiled removes crippled, provides a long range dash with that evade we used to get from a plain dodge and grants swiftness. There no cooldown outside your supply of endurance.

This is vastly superior to Don’t Stop. Were we to remove all of the benefits but swiftness and the long range dash and then add a GM trait like upper hand to the GM slot we would be no farther ahead even though we can count and get as many traits as other classes.

The other two “dodge” types might need a bit more tinkering but if the all the benefits gleaned from one of these new dodges offers as much as unhindered combat does we are fine and especially if we can get a drop down toggle.

This.

The hardest part about changing the dodges is finding a good metric to measure them by. I considered making a comparison to the weapon dodges, but I’m not sure it is a meaningful one. The traits aren’t exclusive with the weapon skills and cost no initiative, so Impaling Lotus and Bound are essentially free damage.

Considering them as additional damage from nowhere, it is still hard to pin down how much of an effect they really have. The amount of dodges that the daredevil gets is highly build dependent. The number ranges from 4 per fight to 11+ per fight. Since bound is 53% as much damage as vault (with updates they have the same activation time), you can consider this 2 to 6 additional “vaults” per fight.

Comparing them to other dodge traits on other classes doesn’t help much, either. The daredevil traits blow all of the other ones out of the water, except for 3:

Evasive Arcana. This is the closest competitor, capable of doing many of the things that the DD dodges do. Its advantage is versatility. Its disadvantage is potency and range. The ICD stops any doubling of effects, and the Ele doesn’t have as many dodges to use. Also, there is no direct damage option to compare it to.

Mark of Evasion: 2 × 8 bleeds + regen is actually pretty good. It does more damage than Impaling Lotus on stationary targets. Disadvantages being potency and range. An 8 second ICD prevents quick doubling, and the Necro has the fewest dodges out of any class. Mark of Evasion also isn’t a finisher of any kind.

Deceptive Evasion: This skill is really hard to pin down. It has no ICD and it is quite versatile and potent. This, however, doesn’t tell the full story. The shatters themselves have cooldowns (again, no doubling), and the clones have to survive to make use of their effect. Clone death is surprisingly common in all game types, and whatever attack you dodge will frequently murder the clone before it can do anything.

The ending conclusion is that the other dodge traits aren’t as good. The ability to spam the combo-finishing Bound and Impaling Lotus over and over and over again is unmatched. While it may not be as versatile as the above, it certainly is stronger.

This is just looking at the single traits themselves. There is a lot of synergy in the class itself, given the copious amount of dodge traits it already has. So the question becomes this:

#1: Is the DD line actually deficient in any way? Sure there’s that complaint about “specialization mechanics”, but overall is the DD losing?

#2: If the DD is deficient, then how would you improve on the grandmasters, given that they are the best in their field?

Saying the elite spec’s poorly conceived/implimented does not mean we think it’s inferior. Many of us have said many times that we really like where Daredevil’s going, it just needs polish.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

#1: Is the DD line actually deficient in any way? Sure there’s that complaint about “specialization mechanics”, but overall is the DD losing?

We’re losing because everything’s recycled and clunky. We’re obviously not as polished as the majority of HoT. Our animations are recycled, our particle effects are recycled and our trait layout is the only one that falls outside the bell curve. It’s very clear that ANet isn’t putting in the same amount of work with Thief as they are with the other elite specs. We run the risk of being ‘born’ as OP Daredevils and then nerfed into the ground just as strong as we run the risk of us being ‘born’ UP Daredevils.

Daredevil’s a ‘fun’ spec yes, but we’re pasting it onto an already weirdly structured profession. ANet’s been moving away from stealth as the Thief’s primary defensive mechanic, which is fine, but now we’re being required to take an elite spec to give us what Acrobatics should already be giving us.

It only seems powerful because they took away half of what was already working in acrobatics and gave it back to us as an elite spec. Our baseline profession should be good. Acrobatics should synergize with Daredevil instead of being hurt by it’s development. As it stands, Trickery and Daredevil are almost a requirement for post-HoT builds. They put too much into the Daredevil line…

When the second set of elite specs come out, we’re going to have to make the choice of not being Daredevil’s. Acrobatics isn’t worth taking and it should be functional in non-Daredevil builds.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

#2: If the DD is deficient, then how would you improve on the grandmasters, given that they are the best in their field?

Moving the Dodges to an out-of-combat selection box, we’d get 1 additional offensive, defensive and utility trait. We’re also lacking party support quite a bit.

• Burst conditions are our weakness so our defensive trait could grant resistance or something akin to the engineers 20% condition reduction. Additionally, blind-on-evade could give us some nice party support.
• Offensively something like evading an attack applies 5 vuln on the thing you evaded would be good for offensive party support. Maybe stuff like evading an attack grants 3 might to nearby allies. We’re going to have a harder time stacking in dungeons since we’re mobility based so maybe some offensive on-dodge or on-evade abilities can help cover that gap.
• Utility-wise something like a new version of the old feline grace. Evading an attack returns 15 endurance should be enough. We don’t need it to be on-dodge as an on-evade is far more limited and will require more skillful play. Again, to go the party support route we could make it evading grants 10 endurance to all nearby allies?

fix it Karl Mclain. Seriously. Fix.the.kitten .profession.

Deceptive Evasion: This skill is really hard to pin down. It has no ICD and it is quite versatile and potent. This, however, doesn’t tell the full story. The shatters themselves have cooldowns (again, no doubling), and the clones have to survive to make use of their effect. Clone death is surprisingly common in all game types, and whatever attack you dodge will frequently murder the clone before it can do anything.

The ending conclusion is that the other dodge traits aren’t as good. The ability to spam the combo-finishing Bound and Impaling Lotus over and over and over again is unmatched. While it may not be as versatile as the above, it certainly is stronger.

Deceptive Evasion is fairly godly. It’s fantastic for generating clones and almost essential to Shatter builds. You can also buff up the durability of the clones. The DD dodge traits are ok, if we compare them purely as vanilla class dodge traits, but when you compare them to other Elite Spec core mechanics, they don’t come anywhere close, as they are barely above the dodge traits other classes get.

IDK, assuming the animation is fixed, lotus is actually quite powerful. It’s a really good source of condition damage that sits on top of all other condition damage, it’s 9 attacks for the purpose of onhit effects, and all 9 attacks are always fires no matter the number of targets you’re fighting. Bound and dash could use love though. Dash is a great mobility tool, but I think it could use a short 1 stack of 2s stability to really push it over the top in the anti-cc department. Bound would be better/more unique if it kicked off the damage at the beginning, rather than the end of the dodge, and maybe some built in lifesteal to reinforce its intent as a zerg-fight tool.

I wanted to spend some money on blacklion chest keys but I am not going to spend anything until they fix our class.

Ohoni.6057:

Deceptive Evasion: This skill is really hard to pin down. It has no ICD and it is quite versatile and potent. This, however, doesn’t tell the full story. The shatters themselves have cooldowns (again, no doubling), and the clones have to survive to make use of their effect. Clone death is surprisingly common in all game types, and whatever attack you dodge will frequently murder the clone before it can do anything.

The ending conclusion is that the other dodge traits aren’t as good. The ability to spam the combo-finishing Bound and Impaling Lotus over and over and over again is unmatched. While it may not be as versatile as the above, it certainly is stronger.

Deceptive Evasion is fairly godly. It’s fantastic for generating clones and almost essential to Shatter builds. You can also buff up the durability of the clones. The DD dodge traits are ok, if we compare them purely as vanilla class dodge traits, but when you compare them to other Elite Spec core mechanics, they don’t come anywhere close, as they are barely above the dodge traits other classes get.

First, minor complaint, when you quote someone. Take designation for the particular post you quote. Don’t just write (//quote) for things. Otherwise, people don’t know where these phrases are coming from or who you are talking to. I.E. when I quote you here, I use (quote=5545031;Ohoni.6057:) at the start of the post.

As far as deceptive evasion goes: With all of this written on the cusp of a Prismatic Understanding Nerf, the overall potency of deceptive was up in question. Why? Well, a common tactic for mesmers was to spam their dodges before engaging or while in stealth, and then use those as an abrupt burst. I used to use this tactic awhile ago, and it would have mixed results due to losing a substantial portion of my defense.

The modern day tactic is to hide in stealth while spamming clones. Stealth itself being adequate for stalling while endurance regenerates. But, with the recent nerf, we’ll have to see if mesmers are still free to use their dodges only for clone spam. If not, then it will suffer the same problem I had with mesmer PVP for years: The attack you dodge kills the clone. With no clone death traits anymore, the value of deceptive evasion gets cut significantly.

Anyway, I would argue that daredevil dodges aren’t slightly better. They’re a lot better. Ignoring the synergy they have with other dodge traits (Driven Fortitude, Escapists Absolution, Uncatchable to name a few), each individual dodge has a lot going for it. If we assume a fairly standard DD build (DA, Trickery, DD), Brawler’s Tenacity with Channeled Vigor, Bountiful Theft with Sleight of Hand, you’ll have an endurance recovery of about 12.3 per second. Since other classes have 50% vigor uptime, their endurance regen is about 6.25 per second. This leaves the Daredevil with 97% more dodges than any other class, not factoring in any weapons or utilities, or the additional starting dodge.

Just by themselves, the dodges are pretty good. Bound is 54% of a backstab attached to a leap finisher (more D/P shenanigans, on top of other thing). Impaling Lotus is a wide AoE condi attack + cripple and 2 whirl finishers. Someone already explained the advantage of dash above. Now take these effects, and when you compare them to the dodges of other classes, multiply it by 2 and add 1 additional dodge. Adjust for ICDs on other classes, then factor in additional dodge synergy traits.

For reference, I’m going to be smacking enemies in PVE for 9k per bound, 4.5k per impaling lotus in a 600 radius. Bound has 62% higher DPS than the dagger auto attack, meaning that dodging will become part of the damage rotation of the PVE Daredevil.

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude. Instead of getting these skills 3 consecutive times + 1 every 4 seconds (front loaded, so really it is closer to 6 consecutive times), we’ll get one of each every 15 seconds, 12 with the new grandmaster which will offer to reduce the cooldown. Or if they don’t get a cooldown, their effectiveness will be cut down to a third to put them in line with the other damage dealing dodge skills, making them mild nuisances rather than a potent tool at our disposal.

First, minor complaint, when you quote someone. Take designation for the particular post you quote. Don’t just write (//quote) for things. Otherwise, people don’t know where these phrases are coming from or who you are talking to. I.E. when I quote you here, I use (quote=5545031;Ohoni.6057:) at the start of the post.

For those who got lost, I was quoting from the post three posts above mine. And in this case, I’m quoting from the one directly above this one.

As far as deceptive evasion goes: With all of this written on the cusp of a Prismatic Understanding Nerf, the overall potency of deceptive was up in question. Why? Well, a common tactic for mesmers was to spam their dodges before engaging or while in stealth, and then use those as an abrupt burst. I used to use this tactic awhile ago, and it would have mixed results due to losing a substantial portion of my defense.

You seem to be talking more PvP than PvE, but keep in mind that people play PvE too, and pumping out clones can be well worth it.

Anyway, I would argue that daredevil dodges aren’t slightly better. They’re a lot better. Ignoring the synergy they have with other dodge traits (Driven Fortitude, Escapists Absolution, Uncatchable to name a few), each individual dodge has a lot going for it. If we assume a fairly standard DD build (DA, Trickery, DD), Brawler’s Tenacity with Channeled Vigor, Bountiful Theft with Sleight of Hand, you’ll have an endurance recovery of about 12.3 per second. Since other classes have 50% vigor uptime, their endurance regen is about 6.25 per second. This leaves the Daredevil with 97% more dodges than any other class, not factoring in any weapons or utilities, or the additional starting dodge.

I played a super-dodgy build in BWE2, and was not impressed. A lot of the DD’s procs, including Vigor, are now conditional on “successful evasion,” which usually means that you failed to actually get out of the way of the attack in the first place. You shouldn’t need to successfully dodge to be able to dodge again. Whatever benefits you cite to a Thief’s dodging ability is not even remotely as good as the Feline Grace that was taken away from us.

And yes, a Daredevil can pick up a dozen or so traits/skills/runes/etc. to max out their dodges to a marginally higher level than other classes, but that’s only IF they max out those options, the players who do not go that route see very little benefit from the spec, which is not a broad variety of options. The Elite should not be shoehorned into just one correct build, even the baseline dodge options should have significance.

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude.

Why would a cooldown on swapping (which shouldn’t be more than 30 seconds or so) be more of a problem than having to manually swap traits while out of combat? Anything you could currently do with swapping Dodges, you should be able to do after they add a toggle, it would just be more convenient this way.

we’ll get one of each every 15 seconds,

What are you even talking about now?

Or if they don’t get a cooldown, their effectiveness will be cut down to a third to put them in line with the other damage dealing dodge skills, making them mild nuisances rather than a potent tool at our disposal.

Why would they make them less effective when the complaint is that they aren’t good ENOUGH? You aren’t making any sense. Right now, the baseline options that a DD gets are not comparable to those that other elite specs get. We’re asking that they fix that. Nothing that they should do should in ANY way reduce the benefits currently available, we’re already at rock bottom. Everything they should be doing should be pure improvements.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude. Instead of getting these skills 3 consecutive times + 1 every 4 seconds (front loaded, so really it is closer to 6 consecutive times), we’ll get one of each every 15 seconds, 12 with the new grandmaster which will offer to reduce the cooldown. Or if they don’t get a cooldown, their effectiveness will be cut down to a third to put them in line with the other damage dealing dodge skills, making them mild nuisances rather than a potent tool at our disposal.

Dude, what are you even talking about anymore. You’re legit just making stuff up now… Maybe there’s a language barrier or something…

PopeUrban.2578:

IDK, assuming the animation is fixed, lotus is actually quite powerful. It’s a really good source of condition damage that sits on top of all other condition damage, it’s 9 attacks for the purpose of onhit effects, and all 9 attacks are always fires no matter the number of targets you’re fighting. Bound and dash could use love though. Dash is a great mobility tool, but I think it could use a short 1 stack of 2s stability to really push it over the top in the anti-cc department. Bound would be better/more unique if it kicked off the damage at the beginning, rather than the end of the dodge, and maybe some built in lifesteal to reinforce its intent as a zerg-fight tool.

My own opinion is of the three dodges Unhindered Combat the closest but that said I still think each can use enhancements.

I would suggest

Unhindered Combat Add “gain 2 seconds stabilty on dodge 1 stack” as you suggest.

Impaling Lotus add “gain 2 seconds resistance on Dodge”

Bounding Dodger Add “Gain 10 seconds might on dodge 1 stack”.

Has it been discussed before, to make vault 900 range, so it can compete with shortbow ?
I mean, since it’s initiative based having one or two weapons providing this range won’t change a thing.

So I have left my fair share of comments on this board. I know that a lot of us are feeling a bit gypped right now over the current state of the thief. There is a wealth of awesome ideas left in these pages as well as plenty of negative feedback. At this time I think it is only right to let this info settle in. Nothing is going to get changed over night and really it should not be for the sake of the game as a whole.

I know what a lot of people are thinking right now because I am right there with you. We are less than a month away and we want the Thief to be the best specialization out their. Sadly at this point and time our wants have been beat down to just the needs and when you play by just the “needs” the game no longer becomes fun.

I am going to give Karl and team a break and back off the forums for a little while. Karl has responded to some of the feedback provided. It may not be in the way that we all wish it to happen but it is a response none the less. Karl is being paid to develop new content and I hope the developing for him goes past the stage of just getting paid to do it. As any artist (which Karl and anyone who makes video games, movies, books etc is) they wish to make something that inspires and makes people feel, think and learn.

I do wish we had some additional responses to the feedback we have provided but I do know it has been at least read. We are now going into BWE3 and I feel as if there will be no further changes until what has been changed is tried. Who knows by the feedback provided we may get an update half way through the weekend since it will be the final beta weekend.

I know I am as guilty as others about the flaming and down grading on the forums. I will say one thing though after reading these forums for the last few days it has even made me want to /wrist. I can only imagine the pressure Karl and his team are under right now between the negative feedback and the deadline coming up. What is going on here int he thief forums is not going unnoticed. It is making it’s way around the game’s community.

Again I would like some further communication on what is going to be happening, what the expectations are for DD, what we plan to improve it and make it competitive with other classes. And most of all what we are going to do in long term to fix the Thief at the core. But think for just one moment Karl has it right. Maybe taking smaller steps and balancing things out will save from the backlash later on further Thief nerfs. Maybe the reason why they are taking it so slow is because they know we have been given the golden chalice in the past only for it to be stripped away with over nerfs. Maybe it is not the thief that is under developed but the other classes are over developed and will eventually get the nerf hammer after hot releases.

All I am asking for now is give the guy and his team a chance to set things right. It might not be by the end of this beta weekend but hopefully it will be by the time HoT launches. Keep providing feedback specially through the weekend as we test the new changes. Don’t give up hope on the Thief.

As for one last sign that the forums are being watched. Karl did just respond to a post outside of this feedback page about the current state of the pistols. His lack of response maybe just because he may not be able to under current development conditions. I would say though if Karl is not able to or just is not that type of a developer to mingle with the community on a PR lvl than maybe having a team spokes person to do it would be nice. Most people just want to know they are being heard.

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

Thanks for the update. It is good to at least know these “stubs” will not be the final product and the animations are still going further development.

Channeled Vigor, I think it is heading in the right direction with the lower cast time. Upping the heal spike I think it would add more for survivability which is something we have been asking for. Like everything else with thief I believe this will fit the roll with proper timing/high risk. Just making the payoff worth it is the trick.

Since we will not getting to see the actual dodge animations till HoT release, could we at least get a video preview through youtube or something? We could at least provide some feedback and know what they are before launch.

Driften.8716:

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

Thanks for the update. It is good to at least know these “stubs” will not be the final product and the animations are still going further development.

Channeled Vigor, I think it is heading in the right direction with the lower cast time. Upping the heal spike I think it would add more for survivability which is something we have been asking for. Like everything else with thief I believe this will fit the roll with proper timing/high risk. Just making the payoff worth it is the trick.

Since we will not getting to see the actual dodge animations till HoT release, could we at least get a video preview through youtube or something? We could at least provide some feedback and know what they are before launch.

I like the idea of having a preview on some sort of media like youtube,
we could at least have an idea of how it will look, knowing of course that it is a work in progress.

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

thanks for keeping us updated! channeled vigor might actually be a pretty good heal if it keeps its endurance-repenlishing facet. not sure if enough to compete with “insta-cast safest heal in the game with evade frames and impairing conditions cleansing, high healing, and low cooldown”, but then again, few things can >.>

any news on the staff front? at least some semblance of a discussion on dust strike being more of a circular PBAoE skill instead of a line in front of the character? or about vault changes? i ask about vault because it could be the one skill to finally dethrone shortbow, if it’s designed right (i.e. focus on mobility rather than damage).

Karl McLain.5604:

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

-Karl

Karl,

Considering that none of the Daredevils’ enhanced Dodges work well with the traditional stealth gameplay of the thief (Dash is cool but it’s too fast for the stealthy in-fighter while the other two both do damage, breaking stealth) would you consider dumping Bound entirely for an option specifically tuned to work with stealth? Essentially an option that uses normal dodge distance and doesn’t do damage, but is still GM-trait levels of cool?

Just spit-balling earlier I’d suggested~

• Flitting Shadows. You Dodge now places you in stealth for 2 seconds if you are not Revealed or removes Revealed if you are.

~Letting you burn a dodge to create the potential to stealth again when revealed.

But really ANYTHING that fits the normal range/not an attack/GM-level-cool profile would go a long, long way towards giving the Daredevil an option that meshes with many of the more aggressive tools at their disposal.

Thanks!

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder. These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change).

See, this is the kind of communication we need more of: updates on what you’re currently working on and where you tentatively plan to go in the future, even if that may change along the way. Trust me, I get it… you have to be very careful about what you say to players as a developer, lest they take what you say as a “promise” and get angry when things don’t go exactly as they had hoped based on what you originally said.

While it’s certainly easier in the short term, silence is very damaging to player morale. Dedicated Thief players have been asking for some clear answers on what they consider to be major issues for what is cumulatively years now. The longer that silence grows without a reply, the more bitter and neglected we feel.

As passionate as we get about the Thief profession, most of us are adults with full lives and a thorough understanding of how the world works. At heart, all we’re really asking for is to be treated with the same basic respect and accountability that ArenaNet employees have so frequently displayed in communications with other sub-forums.

Posts like the one above are a good start, but not enough on their own. The Thief forum community has many accumulated questions, not all of which involve the elite specialization in particular. As much as that might take precious time away from tightening things up before the expansion release, the answers to those questions are just as (or even more) vital as those pertaining to the Daredevil.

Please capitalize on the momentum of some of your recent successes in communication and answer some of our burning questions. A few off the top of my head:

1> What are your thoughts and feelings on the idea of decoupling the Daredevil dodges from the Grandmaster traits (even if it’s at some point after HoT releases)?

2> What are your thoughts on strengthening the Enforcer Training minor so that the extra Endurance feels more powerful and synergistic than it currently does? Two major flaws with the Minor are that base Endurance regeneration doesn’t scale (i.e., Endurance refills at the same speed despite having a larger bar), and that most Endurance-restoring effects don’t restore a percentage but a flat amount, which is counter-intuitive and punishing to the idea of having a higher max Endurance.

3> What big picture Thief problems do you feel still need to be addressed, beyond issues with Pistol which you have already mentioned?

4> On the subject of Pistol, what was the reasoning behind removing the range increase from Ankle Shots without making it baseline (as so many other range increasing traits were over the last few months)? A lot of people relied on that range increase for PvE content such as Tequatl.

5> Should we just give up on Withdraw ever getting the +10% healing we were semi-promised? This is one of those things where even if it’s never coming, it’d be nice to know for sure so we could stop worrying about it.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this or any other pressing Thief issues you choose to respond to. Thank you for your time.

Nike.2631:

Karl McLain.5604:

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

-Karl

Karl,

Considering that none of the Daredevils’ enhanced Dodges work well with the traditional stealth gameplay of the thief (Dash is cool but it’s too fast for the stealthy in-fighter while the other two both do damage, breaking stealth) would you consider dumping Bound entirely for an option specifically tuned to work with stealth? Essentially an option that uses normal dodge distance and doesn’t do damage, but is still GM-trait levels of cool?

Just spit-balling earlier I’d suggested~

• Flitting Shadows. You Dodge now places you in stealth for 2 seconds if you are not Revealed or removes Revealed if you are.

~Letting you burn a dodge to create the potential to stealth again when revealed.

But really ANYTHING that fits the normal range/not an attack/GM-level-cool profile would go a long, long way towards giving the Daredevil an option that meshes with many of the more aggressive tools at their disposal.

Thanks!

I’d personally be more inclined to a dodge that would knockback people we cross without damage, so the dodges could also be used as interrupts.
(we could call it something like : “tackle”).

Adding stealth mechanism into Daredevil doesn’t seem to fit the theme.

Also, maybe an f3 button to toggle on and off the dodge abilility would certainly help surviving confusion, or staying in stealth.

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

Thanks for the update! Any word on staff animations? Even if it’s just the running/idle animations that change it would make a huge difference.

Lyger.5429:

Thanks for the update! Any word on staff animations? Even if it’s just the running/idle animations that change it would make a huge difference.

He already said sometime in the last week that those two animations in particular weren’t slated to change. I would take that to mean that you shouldn’t expect them to change until after HoT release (if at all). Disappointing, but at least it was openly communicated.

Amante.8109:

Lyger.5429:

Thanks for the update! Any word on staff animations? Even if it’s just the running/idle animations that change it would make a huge difference.

He already said sometime in the last week that those two animations in particular weren’t slated to change. I would take that to mean that you shouldn’t expect them to change until after HoT release (if at all). Disappointing, but at least it was openly communicated.

Yea I saw that last week was just hoping they might have snuck something in

Tabootrinket.2631:

I’d personally be more inclined to a dodge that would knockback people we cross without damage, so the dodges could also be used as interrupts.
(we could call it something like : “tackle”).

Adding stealth mechanism into Daredevil doesn’t seem to fit the theme.

I’d argue as long at the Daredevil is picking 2 out of the 5 core Thief trait lines Stealth will regularly be an element in their gameplay .

Also, maybe an f3 button to toggle on and off the dodge abilility would certainly help surviving confusion, or staying in stealth.

Heh. I’d be concerned that if you need a toggle to turn them off because NONE of them work for you there’s a more serious problem at work . Now, reworking Bound to not do damage/break stealth as you suggest is probably easier than starting from scratch…

Considering that none of the Daredevils’ enhanced Dodges work well with the traditional stealth gameplay of the thief (Dash is cool but it’s too fast for the stealthy in-fighter while the other two both do damage, breaking stealth) would you consider dumping Bound entirely for an option specifically tuned to work with stealth? Essentially an option that uses normal dodge distance and doesn’t do damage, but is still GM-trait levels of cool?

I wouldn’t be opposed to this, necessarily, but neither do I see it as necessary. The Daredevil is very clearly not intended to be a stealthy spec, and that’s ok, it doesn’t have to be useful to all sorts of things. I think they should focus more on DD being a better stand-up and fight spec than it is, rather than trying to incorporate stealth into it. There will likely be stealthier elite specs to come (for Warriors or Eles, at least).

The Tooltip on Channeled Vigor reads “Physical,” I wonder if there are any ideas or plans for the future to change the heal to reflect the tooltip?

I think that would be an interesting and unique characteristic to add to DD.

Karl McLain.5604:

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

1) Wow, ~2 dodges on a short channel heal is actually starting to get competitive with withdraw. Higher risk but higher reward. I like the direction at least!

2) Moving some of the endurance regen to the base of DrD could be the way to go. I misread at first and got excited that DrD would be receiving a higher base endurance regen.

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

Huuuge relief seeing this, but I must say I would love to hear the same for the staff animations as well. You touched the topic a while back when you said idle and run animations wont receive changes for a while, but then processed to say other animations were being worked on. When you said this, did you mean staff animations were being adjusted? Because me and probably every thief out there would be eternally grateful to get some real martial arts looking skills on the staff. I promise you, if you make this happen…my wallet is yours for another 2 years. Still praying current staff skill animations are placeholder.

Nike.2631:

Tabootrinket.2631:

I’d personally be more inclined to a dodge that would knockback people we cross without damage, so the dodges could also be used as interrupts.
(we could call it something like : “tackle”).

Adding stealth mechanism into Daredevil doesn’t seem to fit the theme.

I’d argue as long at the Daredevil is picking 2 out of the 5 core Thief trait lines Stealth will regularly be an element in their gameplay .

shadow arts is really the only one that DEMANDS stealth gameplay. acro, DA and trickery have no stealth, and CS has like, one stealth trait, that no one takes because it’s redundant.

hell, right now the most interesting DD builds are S/P and S/D, neither of which have any stealth (technically S/D has it, but no one uses it).

there’s nothing wrong with a spec not being fit for every single build/playstyle. they’re specializations after all, not broad piles of traits. plus, i think bound’s leap finisher is a great complement to /P builds, giving them access to stealth without burning initiative on multiple skills or utilities.

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

I do wonder what kind of strange coding has lead to the skill being reclassified as a blast finisher…

Anyway, this is good to hear, and I would like to bring up 2 things.

#1: Have you considered making Bound do damage at the start of the dodge? It loses some of the aggressive nature the trait has, but it has more value as a defensive measure. After all, dodging in to someone isn’t nearly as practical or safe as dodging out of someone, and the other dodge traits are fully capable of functioning in any direction.

#2: Impact Strike → Uppercut → Finishing Blow really needs an buff. I wrote about it at length here. To summarize, the problems with the skill is that it doesn’t do enough damage or stun to distinguish it from basilisk venom, and the finishing mechanic is only beneficial in situations where you’ve already won and don’t need a boost. Thieves can already blind stomp and stealth stomp, so this skill really doesn’t add much.

Shalien.9018:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude. Instead of getting these skills 3 consecutive times + 1 every 4 seconds (front loaded, so really it is closer to 6 consecutive times), we’ll get one of each every 15 seconds, 12 with the new grandmaster which will offer to reduce the cooldown. Or if they don’t get a cooldown, their effectiveness will be cut down to a third to put them in line with the other damage dealing dodge skills, making them mild nuisances rather than a potent tool at our disposal.

Dude, what are you even talking about anymore. You’re legit just making stuff up now… Maybe there’s a language barrier or something…

Its called standardization. A lot of people don’t realize what they’re asking for with this suggestion, so I’ll have to put it into perspective. To make the dodges into the mechanic of the DD, that is asking for a whole lot.

#1: 3 grandmaster worthy traits (the best in their respective fields) being made available without being traits…
#2: to be swapped between on demand, which is much better than any individual trait was due to the loss of exclusivity..
#3: alongside of 3 new grandmaster worthy traits of which to pick from to further augment the class…

A buff like this is so massive that it would make the Daredevil OP. Instinctively knowing that toggles with no cooldowns which provide such a wide and potent toolbox will be OP, the devs will nerf it. Either one of two things is going to happen: The dodges get cooldowns (10 seconds to be in line with other dodges + additional time for their increased power, so around 15 seconds). Or, the dodges get their effectiveness cut down by a third assuming the very simple logic that now we have all 3 and thus we don’t want it to be 3 times as powerful.

Making such a massive change is not going to happen, and I have evidence for this. A much tamer, more realistic buff was already shot down. In the first post of this very thread, Karl had this to say:

Karl McLain.5604:

Traits:
This iteration was mostly bug fixes. I’ve seen a lot of feedback on how Escapist’s Absolution should be baseline. It is the case that we believe this trait is powerful enough that it should be a choice in the trait line between damage, survivability and utility, rather than just a given. Driven Fortitude’s healing allows for usefulness in all modes where you take damage, where EA’s condition removal is situationally useful in a combat scenario.

As a mechanic buff, making Escapists Absolution baseline is my first go-to. Even as a master minor trait it was rejected, on the extremely shaky logic that condi removal is situational (seriously, where is there anywhere in the game that doesn’t have condis?). Something to the tune of 3 innate grandmasters with non-exclusivity + 3 new grandmasters to choose from is a nightmare that would make McLain an insomniac.

I’d still argue for innate Escapists Absolution. But even I know that the mechanic everyone wants is foolhardy.

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

An idea, instead of custom animation for each dodge, why not use colors like blue with Unhindered Combatant with standard animations? Animations are subject to lag, colors maybe less so. Red for Lotus Training, blue for Unhindered Combatant and yellow/brown for Bounding Dodger.

That being said, animations for Daredevil are least of its problems.

Lets ignore few other mayor problems for a second and look at Daredevil from new player perspective. New player will have to invest incredible amount of time and hero points to unlock Daredevil potential, different dodge abilities unlike other elite specializations which get theirs simply by unlocking Minor Adept, in Daredevils case Enforcer Training.

Originally I wasn’t for this idea but as time passes and since we saw all elite professions idea grew on me. Moving dodges like shown in picture below (credits to Shalien.9018) and having that ability unlocked simply by unlocking Enforcer Training would fix few problems. Already mentioned new players having trouble unlocking it problem and Daredevil being underwhelming without real grand master traits problem.

If I may suggest new grand master traits I would go with,
1st 1 second of immunity to physical damage after dodge with having endure pain skill fact for 1 second on bar,
2nd 1 second of immunity to conditional damage after dodge with 1 second of resistance after dodge with having berserks stance skill fact on bar,
3rd 1 second of immunity to crowd control effects after dodge with getting 10 stack of stability for 1 second.
(We don’t need new art for endure pain/zerker stance, we are thieves, we steal. )

Those maybe sound crazy but it would give thief something he horribly needs it this environment and everyone else has, sustain.

As for staff problem. Problem was with it being to slow, which seams to be worked on and on fact you couldn’t combo on it self to get into stealth. I know you wanna push for stealth-less weapon set, but that doesn’t work for thief in its current form. Even for s/d evade play-style you would still go in stealth with cloak and dagger for get bash on someone for 1.5 second daze and quick repositioning.

In short here is the problem, thief is stealth dependent even with evasion build/weapon and pure evasion weapon set doesn’t work well.

#1: 3 grandmaster worthy traits (the best in their respective fields) being made available without being traits…
#2: to be swapped between on demand, which is much better than any individual trait was due to the loss of exclusivity..
#3: alongside of 3 new grandmaster worthy traits of which to pick from to further augment the class…

A buff like this is so massive that it would make the Daredevil OP.

There is verrrry little that could make the Daredevil OP. This would definitely not make the Daredevil OP in ANY way.

Now, I do not believe that the toggles should be free to use. I do not believe you should be able to go “Dodge → f3 → Dodge → f4 → Dodge → F5” and bust out all three of the special dodges in a row and be back on the first version. That could be an issue (but still not OP). I do expect them to either A: lock out the swapping option entirely during combat, B: have a cooldown on swapping of maybe 10-30 seconds, or C: having an endurance cost of 25-50 points each time you swap, making it inefficient to abuse it.

Any of those three things would ONLY impact the ability to swap them out, and should have NO effect on actually using the dodges while inaction. If you just want to stay in Lotus mode and spam that, there should be absolutely no difference between the new version and the old. Currently you can change the dodge version however much you like so long as you’re outside of combat, outside of PvP, and open your trait menu, all the change would do is at minimum make that process easier, and maybe allow you limited swapping while in combat.

There is absolutely no need to nerf the basic versions of them, the benefit of having those dodges is “paid for” in being an elite spec, and is comparable to the benefits other elite specs offer in their current form.

Now, if ANet insists that giving us all three bonus dodges “for free” would be overpowered, then here are two compromises that would satisfy me. Both of them would require having some toggle button to swap the dodges as described above, either f3-f4-f5 to pick them individually, or using one of those f-keys to rotate through them:

A: They remain as the three GM traits, but the UI button is added to toggle between them without entering the Hero Panel. This is the minimum they could do and would be purely Quality of Life.

B. Players get a very weakened version of all three abilities as a baseline, and can swap through them. This would be like a Dash that just adds swiftness, a Bound that is almost identical to the Warrior version, and a Lotus that is much lower impact. Then there would be the three GM traits, each of which would buff up a respective dodge to at or above its current level. This would allow you to freely swap between them for low-value versions, but only the one you spec into would be fully powered.

Ideally the traits would also include some general purpose buff that is related to the dodge, like adding Swiftness to any dodge you use, adding a stack of Might, or adding some Resistance or something, depending on which you pick. So like if you picked the Dash trait, then not only would Dash now have all the condi clears and other benefits attached to it, but even if you used a Bound or Lotus you would gain a little more Swiftness from it (but each would be weaker than the current versions).

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude.

You have made it clear that you believe the dodges should remain Grandmaster traits. While I see your line of reasoning, you seem to be working under the false assumption that the dodges not being Grandmaster traits means that they would have to be switchable in combat and on the fly. This thoroughly misrepresents the argument, as no one with an even cursory grasp of game balance is suggesting that. What the reasonable proponents of the “make the dodges baseline” argument are suggesting is that the dodges should be decoupled from the Grandmaster traits. That is all.

It would be quite overpowered indeed if Daredevil could switch between the dodges in the middle of combat. Again, no one reasonable is truly advocating for that. Can you go more into why you seem to think these two ideas are inextricably linked? You can already switch dodges while out of combat as you please, you just have to open the trait panel to do so. This is not a substantial barrier to switching them during windows of opportunity.

All that would truly be gained by such a change is the addition of new Grandmaster traits. Assuming the dodges went baseline and stayed the same in power, this would indeed be a buff, on account of gaining an additional trait choice that you didn’t have before. My bone to pick is that I don’t think having one more trait would “unbalance” the Daredevil in any meaningful way. If you believe otherwise, please elaborate further as to why.

Thanks for the update Karl. Since it seems like staff won’t be getting any new animations, maybe you could go talk to the legendary weapon people and have them give us a martial staff with Kilik from Soul Calibur style animations… /winkwink

As many people have asked, can we get your thoughts on moving the dodges out of the grandmaster trait position and making them baseline like all the other elite specs? If you disagree, at least let us hear your concerns so we can more intelligently try to convince you instead of repeating it to each other, lol.

We want balance as much as you and many of us are volunteering dozens of hours theorycrafting to assist as we can.

Bonus thought – Can the damaging dodges please only do damage while out of stealth so we don’t lose our stealth attacks trying to survive?

Amante.8109:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude.

You have made it clear that you believe the dodges should remain Grandmaster traits. While I see your line of reasoning, you seem to be working under the false assumption that the dodges not being Grandmaster traits means that they would have to be switchable in combat and on the fly. This thoroughly misrepresents the argument, as no one with an even cursory grasp of game balance is suggesting that. What the reasonable proponents of the “make the dodges baseline” argument are suggesting is that the dodges should be decoupled from the Grandmaster traits. That is all.

Yeah I’m done responding to them. They aren’t getting it and it’s not productive for me to keep trying.

Thanks for the update Karl, excited to try out Channeled Vigor again. Do keep us posted!

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

#1: 3 grandmaster worthy traits (the best in their respective fields) being made available without being traits…
#2: to be swapped between on demand, which is much better than any individual trait was due to the loss of exclusivity..
#3: alongside of 3 new grandmaster worthy traits of which to pick from to further augment the class…

I personally don’t want #2 at all. I would like an F3 slot for the sole purpose of slotting a dodge. I can pick a dodge (much like how Revenants pick a legend) and stick with it. I can swap dodges (like how Revenants pick a legend) when I’m out of combat and I’m locked in a choice for the duration of a PvP match. I feel that would be a sufficient solution.

This provides the same functionality we have now but this change would free up the GMs for some cool things or offer options. For example, I’ve suggested (condition) damage mitigation and stability when starting the Impact Strike combo.

Sidenote: For the forseeable future I feel forced to take Escapist’s Absolution. I’d honestly rather run Impacting Disruption. Maybe the Channeled Vigor changes will allow me to do so.

Just adding my two cents here. I have eight 80s, one for each class, but I spend the bulk of my hours maining Warrior, and my alt which is Thief. For those hating on Daredevil, when HoT drops I plan on slotting Daredevil with double pistols or sword/pistol, while I have no interest in Berserker for the War.

Other than Chrono and Druid, I don’t think any class is saying ‘I have to play this.’

Rev doesn’t count.

Amante.8109:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly, it will come with a stringent internal cooldown that will butcher the aggression and utility of those skills by half an order of magnitude.

You have made it clear that you believe the dodges should remain Grandmaster traits. While I see your line of reasoning, you seem to be working under the false assumption that the dodges not being Grandmaster traits means that they would have to be switchable in combat and on the fly. This thoroughly misrepresents the argument, as no one with an even cursory grasp of game balance is suggesting that. What the reasonable proponents of the “make the dodges baseline” argument are suggesting is that the dodges should be decoupled from the Grandmaster traits. That is all.

It would be quite overpowered indeed if Daredevil could switch between the dodges in the middle of combat. Again, no one reasonable is truly advocating for that. Can you go more into why you seem to think these two ideas are inextricably linked? You can already switch dodges while out of combat as you please, you just have to open the trait panel to do so. This is not a substantial barrier to switching them during windows of opportunity.

All that would truly be gained by such a change is the addition of new Grandmaster traits. Assuming the dodges went baseline and stayed the same in power, this would indeed be a buff, on account of gaining an additional trait choice that you didn’t have before. My bone to pick is that I don’t think having one more trait would “unbalance” the Daredevil in any meaningful way. If you believe otherwise, please elaborate further as to why.

You have to be more specific in your suggestions. I don’t have psychic powers. I can’t know what you are thinking unless you say it. Countless people don’t have a grasp on “proper balance”, so when someone says something to the effect of “Make the dodges baseline as part of our mechanic”, then unless a further restriction is stipulated I am left to assume that they’ll be swapped around on the fly. I’ve seen this forum be filled over the past few days with complaints that are irrational and suggestions that are over the top, so unless you can sufficiently differentiate yourself from that crowd, I’m not going to assume you are different.

The internal cooldown already has a precedent set: Evasive Arcana. Even with the limitations on attunement swap, the dodges still have an internal cooldown. So given either a freely swapping system or a cooldown on swaps, an ICD would be standard. A cooldown on swaps would be the most minuscule difference from complete freedom, since players will just sit on top of their default dodge until one of the other two is needed in a pinch.

Having the dodge type be changeable, but only outside of combat is the best suggestion. However, it is not only unlike everything else in the game, but at that point it is trivial. The closest in-game example is revenant legends, but these are only similar in the sense that you can swap legends, which change all of the non-wepaon skills. This is done to compensate for the extremely limiting design of the revenant. On the trivial side, there isn’t much difference between decoupling the grandmaster dodges + adding new traits vs. just adding new/more mechanics and keeping the grandmasters where they are. At that point, it is just aesthetics.

I’m not sure the daredevil is underpowered. But regardless of that, I’m going to make a case here: Making Escapists Absolution baseline would be a stronger change to the specialization than what you are suggesting. The thing with Escapists Absolution is that in PVP/WvW it is a necessity, and in PVE it is a large QoL upgrade. The adept and grandmaster tiers are chosen based on playstyle and build, but the master tier is heavily constrained by this trait. Even if you add new grandmasters, you still have to take Escapists Absolution. If EA is baseline, we can choose either Staff Mastery or Impacting Disruption for a significant damage boost, and the only thing that needs to be made is a new master tier trait, which is less work and less likely to unbalance everything.

This was the original suggestion before everyone started to get jealous of what other classes had. I still stick by it.

My case for allowing f3-f5 a dodge selectable bar so as to swap dodges in combat are based upon the following.

1>Players are still limited in the number of dodges they have overall. If they use one up on a Dash they will lose the potential of using that for an impaling lotus. It will not be used as often as people think but would add utility to the DD spec.

2>The synergy between the three dodges is such that it very rare all three would be used in a given build. Hyrbrid builds would be an exception which is a good thing.

3>There would be an internal cooldown of 10 seconds on switch dodges just as we have with weaponswap and just as Eles have with switching attunements. Switch to unhindered combat and you can not use bounding dodger for 10 seconds. Yes most people would just park one dodge but that just shows the ability not OP.

4>Thief currently benefits the least off weaponswaps given the nature of INI. If one compares a warrior traiting fast hands with a GS and sword/warhorn set which they can do every 5 seconds they do gain many of the added benefits the thief would garner if they could swap dodges. This is not seen as OP. As example you can swap off to warhorn to cleanse the conditions chilled crippled , and Immob , and gain swiftness very much like we get with unhindered combat. They can also gain vigor and weaken foes and the charge on the warhorn has a much longer range then Unhindered combat. That on a cooldown yes but the overall benefits of swapping weapons to use the warhorn then switch back in 5 seconds to use an eviscerate or higher damage skill from another set adds great tactical ability to a warrior and I do not see why it would be OP to allow this on our dodges.

It my belief that if this integrated into the DD build along with some slight enhancements to the dodges as I and others have suggested , we would not need a separate suite of GM traits. There would be plenty of oomph and utility in the build.

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

As happy as I am to see this post…. 24 days, Karl… 24 days.

The internal cooldown already has a precedent set: Evasive Arcana. Even with the limitations on attunement swap, the dodges still have an internal cooldown. So given either a freely swapping system or a cooldown on swaps, an ICD would be standard. A cooldown on swaps would be the most minuscule difference from complete freedom, since players will just sit on top of their default dodge until one of the other two is needed in a pinch.

Evasive Arcana is a vanilla Ele trait, it is not a core feature of an Elite Spec.

I’m not sure the daredevil is underpowered. But regardless of that, I’m going to make a case here: Making Escapists Absolution baseline would be a stronger change to the specialization than what you are suggesting.

It may be, but it wouldn’t be nearly as convenient as letting people swap dodges without opening the Hero Panel.