Guild Wars 2

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

I sincerely appreciate the hard work!

My only concern now is the running animation.

Atm it looks like we’re holding something heavy, like a Hammer when running in combat-mode.

I honestly believe (and so do many others in this thread) the running animation should change, making it look like we’re holding something more light, as a Staff.

Running forward while holding our staff back with one hand is a typical Staff Martial Arts run and would love to see something like that.

Cheers

Terrorsquad.4802:

Karl McLain.5604:

Animation update: All dodge animations are in the process of being iterated on. With that being said, in the next Beta weekend each custom dodge ability has had its animation replaced with what is called a ‘stub’, or a placeholder.
These stubs aren’t necessarily what the final animation will look like and may not even resemble the final product remotely (Huge disclaimer: Everything’s subject to change). However, we needed to replace the previously existing animations due to issues that couldn’t be resolved otherwise (i.e. Lag).

We are looking forward to the new functionality, but there’s a few pains that we’re getting through. During the next beta weekend, you’ll find that the Leap combo finisher for Bounding Dodger only works if you land inside a field. This is not intended and we’re already working on the fix for it (it’s in testing now). For now, it’s going to be trickier to get your leap finisher from Black Powder. There’s also a bug in the skill facts that indicate that it delivers a blast finisher, but it in fact a leap and will remain as such.

Other stuff:
As I talked about last update, Channeled Vigor’s now being tested as a 0.75 second cast (down from 2.25 seconds). We’re also toying with the endurance/healing values. The role of this heal is shaping more toward being high spike healing for the thief.

-Karl

I sincerely appreciate the hard work!

My only concern now is the running animation.

Atm it looks like we’re holding something heavy, like a Hammer when running in combat-mode.

I honestly believe (and so do many others in this thread) the running animation should change, making it look like we’re holding something more light, as a Staff.

Running forward while holding our staff back with one hand is a typical Staff Martial Arts run and would love to see something like that.

Cheers

I second this.

To anyone who needs a visual I think he means something like this:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

You have to be more specific in your suggestions. I don’t have psychic powers. I can’t know what you are thinking unless you say it. Countless people don’t have a grasp on “proper balance”, so when someone says something to the effect of “Make the dodges baseline as part of our mechanic”, then unless a further restriction is stipulated I am left to assume that they’ll be swapped around on the fly. I’ve seen this forum be filled over the past few days with complaints that are irrational and suggestions that are over the top, so unless you can sufficiently differentiate yourself from that crowd, I’m not going to assume you are different.

I have been very clear over a period of weeks—as have many other major proponents of decoupling the dodges, such as Shalien—that the proposed toggle should definitely not be usable in combat. We have repeatedly used the Revenant Legend UI as a point of comparison, as it’s a good example of how to do this sort of thing correctly: they can only switch Legends while out of combat and not in an active SPvP match.

At this point I can only assume willful ignorance on your part, as you keep bringing up the in combat point, seemingly to misrepresent the argument. This is a type of informal fallacy that as known as a Straw Man: misrepresenting your opponent’s argument so it is easy to tear apart; this frees one up to not respond to any salient points an opposing argument may have made.

I will ask you yet again: assuming the dodges maintain their current utility and power—which is something I would say we all want—what is it about one additional trait that would take the Daredevil from its current (arguably underpowered) state, to one of being overpowered? I’m eager to hear your reasoning.

Quick comment on the dodges… it might be limited by the power of the code writing. I know we want them decoupled, don’t think I’m trying to harass or exploit any arguments for that. But in part I suspect that retooling the f commands on thief to have two separate functions might encounter the same problem ranger did with druid. Notice how their avatar bar had to be placed over the hp line, and why they’ve been so mum on pet removal for a long time? I’m not 100% but based on things said at twitch con I think we might be asking more than we realize. That said, I’d still really really really pine for this feature down the road.

Thanks for continuing to work on the animations Karl. I’d like to also agree with all the folks asking for the combat run staff animation to be altered. Looking cool and feeling cool have perks that ignore stats and overall make the build ‘feel’ far more like an elite bad@ss who is there to chew bubblegum and deal crap tons of damage while knocking down and interrupting enemies.

Seriously, if dulfy’s recalculation on the staff 1 chain attack is correct… staff is going to be beast. prays to the six

Amante.8109:

I have been very clear over a period of weeks—as have many other major proponents of decoupling the dodges, such as Shalien—that the proposed toggle should definitely not be usable in combat. We have repeatedly used the Revenant Legend UI as a point of comparison, as it’s a good example of how to do this sort of thing correctly: they can only switch Legends while out of combat and not in an active SPvP match.

At this point I can only assume willful ignorance on your part, as you keep bringing up the in combat point, seemingly to misrepresent the argument. This is a type of informal fallacy that as known as a Straw Man: misrepresenting your opponent’s argument so it is easy to tear apart; this frees one up to not respond to any salient points an opposing argument may have made.

I will ask you yet again: assuming the dodges maintain their current utility and power—which is something I would say we all want—what is it about one additional trait that would take the Daredevil from its current (arguably underpowered) state, to one of being overpowered? I’m eager to hear your reasoning.

The biggest problem about calling it all a straw man is that the real man is standing right behind you. Likewise, if you make a post the burden is on you to make sure everyone understands. Don’t just say “Oh, it is implied that I have elaborated on it somewhere else in the forum”. No, it is not implied. You have to add those 2 or 3 sentences that explains exactly what you mean, or else any ambiguity is on your head.

You are misrepresenting my argument. My argument was that making all 3 dodges available on the fly makes the Daredevil OP. This is the informal fallacy called the Loaded Question: you’re making incorrect assumptions and then pressing for an answer that would validate this assumption. Given how much I’ve just written on the subject, I can only assume it is willful ignorance at this point.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Amante.8109:

I have been very clear over a period of weeks—as have many other major proponents of decoupling the dodges, such as Shalien—that the proposed toggle should definitely not be usable in combat. We have repeatedly used the Revenant Legend UI as a point of comparison, as it’s a good example of how to do this sort of thing correctly: they can only switch Legends while out of combat and not in an active SPvP match.

At this point I can only assume willful ignorance on your part, as you keep bringing up the in combat point, seemingly to misrepresent the argument. This is a type of informal fallacy that as known as a Straw Man: misrepresenting your opponent’s argument so it is easy to tear apart; this frees one up to not respond to any salient points an opposing argument may have made.

I will ask you yet again: assuming the dodges maintain their current utility and power—which is something I would say we all want—what is it about one additional trait that would take the Daredevil from its current (arguably underpowered) state, to one of being overpowered? I’m eager to hear your reasoning.

The biggest problem about calling it all a straw man is that the real man is standing right behind you. Likewise, if you make a post the burden is on you to make sure everyone understands. Don’t just say “Oh, it is implied that I have elaborated on it somewhere else in the forum”. No, it is not implied. You have to add those 2 or 3 sentences that explains exactly what you mean, or else any ambiguity is on your head.

You are misrepresenting my argument. My argument was that making all 3 dodges available on the fly makes the Daredevil OP. This is the informal fallacy called the Loaded Question: you’re making incorrect assumptions and then pressing for an answer that would validate this assumption. Given how much I’ve just written on the subject, I can only assume it is willful ignorance at this point.

Nah man. You’re legit reaching for straws. Whatever logical fallacies you want to say other people are using, you’re the one not understanding what’s going on. Multiple people have tried to tell you this now and you insist that everyone else is wrong.

At some point, a teacher has to stop focusing all their effort on one student who’s not getting the subject material.

It’s not our responsibility to try to make you understand what’s happening. We’ve tried many times to help you and not only do you refuse to try to comprehend the conversations being had – you also think that every person on this forum who disagrees with you is in the same camp.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Likewise, if you make a post the burden is on you to make sure everyone understands.

This is patently false. There is no such thing as an argument so ironclad that it is impossible for anyone who hears it to potentially misunderstand it. This simplistic view also ignores the human tendency to deliberately misrepresent arguments that one disagrees with, but is unable to logically counter.

To have any chance of constructing an argument that could not be misinterpreted, you’d have to deliver it to a handpicked audience, e.g. a group of your friends or colleagues meeting in a closed, invite-only forum. Given that this is a public forum on the internet that is accessible by an indeterminate amount of people—some of whom barely understand English, due to the global nature of the game—it is unrealistic to expect that any given argument should (or even could) result in universal understanding.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The biggest problem about calling it all a straw man is that the real man is standing right behind you.

People making invalid arguments do not in any way diminish those making similar but valid arguments. This is why you are being accused of straw-manning in the first place.

There are two schools of thought among those who believe that the choice of dodge should be made through an additional UI element rather than a trait choice. One is that this should be doable in combat, the other is that it should not.

The one thing you and I both agree on is that switching between the dodges mid-combat is simply not feasible. To accomplish this, the dodges would have to be greatly reduced in power and utility, taking away most of what makes them compelling in the first place.

It’s clear that you strongly wish to avoid that outcome. While I don’t blame you for feeling that way, it is still no excuse for repeatedly misrepresenting the arguments of others in service of your own. I didn’t even have to go further back than the last 24 hours to find a perfectly representative example of you doing this. In fact, you didn’t even make it further than the opening portion of a very long post before committing this fallacy yet again:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Its called standardization. A lot of people don’t realize what they’re asking for with this suggestion, so I’ll have to put it into perspective. To make the dodges into the mechanic of the DD, that is asking for a whole lot.

#1: 3 grandmaster worthy traits (the best in their respective fields) being made available without being traits…
#2: to be swapped between on demand, which is much better than any individual trait was due to the loss of exclusivity..
#3: alongside of 3 new grandmaster worthy traits of which to pick from to further augment the class…

You explicitly state that decoupling the dodges would necessitate they be swappable on demand. This greatly misrepresents the argument many people are making… which again, is why you have repeatedly been accused of straw-manning.

How to Fix DD:

1. Remove Dodges as GM traits.
2. Create 3 GM traits
3. Adjust staff to be a more synergetic and friendlier initiative use weapon
4. Adjust sustains traits
5. Fix animations

Good start.

In my opinion the only thing that needs improving on the Daredevil now are some of the staff skills. If they added a directional evade (something like warrior’s greatsword whirl attack), and a non-stealth interrupt option, the staff would be able to compete with the thief’s other weapon sets. At the moment all other weapon sets outshine the staff in almost every way except damage. If the staff gave you more control over where you evade to, I think it would be a much better weapon.

Rin.1046:

In my opinion the only thing that needs improving on the Daredevil now are some of the staff skills. If they added a directional evade (something like warrior’s greatsword whirl attack), and a non-stealth interrupt option, the staff would be able to compete with the thief’s other weapon sets. At the moment all other weapon sets outshine the staff in almost every way except damage. If the staff gave you more control over where you evade to, I think it would be a much better weapon.

Seconded.

I think #2 would be a prime candidate for the whirlwind treatment instead of being tied to a target like heartseeker.

Maugetarr.6823:

Rin.1046:

In my opinion the only thing that needs improving on the Daredevil now are some of the staff skills. If they added a directional evade (something like warrior’s greatsword whirl attack), and a non-stealth interrupt option, the staff would be able to compete with the thief’s other weapon sets. At the moment all other weapon sets outshine the staff in almost every way except damage. If the staff gave you more control over where you evade to, I think it would be a much better weapon.

Seconded.

I think #2 would be a prime candidate for the whirlwind treatment instead of being tied to a target like heartseeker.

please no…as a long time thief player, I don’t think we should have to worry about where we need to project ourselves in the split second reaction time we are given during a fight. We already have way more to manage than any other class as it is…I would much prefer it to be like heart seeker.

Shalien.9018:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Amante.8109:

I have been very clear over a period of weeks—as have many other major proponents of decoupling the dodges, such as Shalien—that the proposed toggle should definitely not be usable in combat. We have repeatedly used the Revenant Legend UI as a point of comparison, as it’s a good example of how to do this sort of thing correctly: they can only switch Legends while out of combat and not in an active SPvP match.

At this point I can only assume willful ignorance on your part, as you keep bringing up the in combat point, seemingly to misrepresent the argument. This is a type of informal fallacy that as known as a Straw Man: misrepresenting your opponent’s argument so it is easy to tear apart; this frees one up to not respond to any salient points an opposing argument may have made.

I will ask you yet again: assuming the dodges maintain their current utility and power—which is something I would say we all want—what is it about one additional trait that would take the Daredevil from its current (arguably underpowered) state, to one of being overpowered? I’m eager to hear your reasoning.

The biggest problem about calling it all a straw man is that the real man is standing right behind you. Likewise, if you make a post the burden is on you to make sure everyone understands. Don’t just say “Oh, it is implied that I have elaborated on it somewhere else in the forum”. No, it is not implied. You have to add those 2 or 3 sentences that explains exactly what you mean, or else any ambiguity is on your head.

You are misrepresenting my argument. My argument was that making all 3 dodges available on the fly makes the Daredevil OP. This is the informal fallacy called the Loaded Question: you’re making incorrect assumptions and then pressing for an answer that would validate this assumption. Given how much I’ve just written on the subject, I can only assume it is willful ignorance at this point.

Nah man. You’re legit reaching for straws. Whatever logical fallacies you want to say other people are using, you’re the one not understanding what’s going on. Multiple people have tried to tell you this now and you insist that everyone else is wrong.

At some point, a teacher has to stop focusing all their effort on one student who’s not getting the subject material.

It’s not our responsibility to try to make you understand what’s happening. We’ve tried many times to help you and not only do you refuse to try to comprehend the conversations being had – you also think that every person on this forum who disagrees with you is in the same camp.

What utter hypocrisy.

#1: It is your responsibility to make sure I understand. If you’re talking to someone, you have to make sure they know what you are saying. Otherwise you are horrible at communicating.

#2: I do understand what is going on. There are several things going on, and since you don’t understand I will explain it to you: There are players who just look at the mechanics other classes have and say “Hey, I want this now because it looks like they got more!”. They are wrong to think like that. It is jealous balancing and it gets nowhere. The the class is not robbed somehow because you aren’t happy with where things are placed. And yet, you are so myopic that you think that because someone disagrees with your one true way that it means they can’t comprehend your thoughts. Not once have you proven that a deficiency in the class is intrinsic to having our grandmaster tier be dodges. You’ve just proclaimed yourself right and look down upon anyone who disagrees.

#3: The bandwagon fallacy is the informal fallacy of irrelevance. It doesn’t matter how many people you have to pat each other on the back over a job well done. Fact is not up for a popular vote.

#4: I demand proof. Where have I misunderstood something? Because last I checked, each time someone has added new information I have expanded or commented on that new information.

Arctarius.2649:

please no…as a long time thief player, I don’t think we should have to worry about where we need to project ourselves in the split second reaction time we are given during a fight. We already have way more to manage than any other class as it is…I would much prefer it to be like heart seeker.

But keeping it targetted is much MUCH clunkier in combat situations. If you want to whirl somewhere esle than your current tagrte, you either have to retarget something else, which costs more time than just clicking the dircetion, or you have to detarget and manually turn your camera the way you want to whirl, again costing more time.

With a directional targetting system like Warrior’s GS #2 you can much better react in a split second than otherwise. Just point where to go and press 2 (if quickAoE is enabled) or press 2 and click the direction, simple as that. This would be so much better.

Rin.1046:

In my opinion the only thing that needs improving on the Daredevil now are some of the staff skills. If they added a directional evade (something like warrior’s greatsword whirl attack), and a non-stealth interrupt option, the staff would be able to compete with the thief’s other weapon sets. At the moment all other weapon sets outshine the staff in almost every way except damage. If the staff gave you more control over where you evade to, I think it would be a much better weapon.

I actually really like this. However, I find it a bit strange that staff would have two evade skills…so my suggestion is to turn staff 3 into a 1s block, which when is hit executes a counterattack that knocks the opponent down for 1s or something(basically tripping them with the staff).

Edit: I guess we already have this functionality in Bandit’s Defense though…so…idk actually haha

Amante.8109:

This is patently false. There is no such thing as an argument so ironclad that it is impossible for anyone who hears it to potentially misunderstand it.

One doesn’t lead to the other. The whole point of communication is make sure people understand your ideas. If that isn’t the point of communication, then what is the point of communication. You can judge how good of a communicator someone is by how well other people understand what they are trying to convey.

You’re so wrapped up in your own head you’ve completely lost pace of the conversation. Lets retrace how this has gone. In response to someone else, I started with the following statement:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is precisely because of these reasons that I do not want our grandmasters to become some kind of additional mechanic. If we get the option to toggle between what dodge we want on the fly…

Which I brought up by myself. I had already heard this kind of sentiment earlier, and someone later posts up an argument for this kind mechanic. So this isn’t unheard of, and this isn’t directed at anyone necessarily. Then shalien comes in and dumps a superiority complex fueled load asking what I am talking about. I respond to shalien clearly outlining everything I am talking about. Then you come in proclaiming that I grabbed this notion from nowhere while dumping a no true Scotsman about how the only people that matter are making the real suggestion. I respond explaining the outlandish communication limitation, then talked about what you had elaborated on. See, normally this is the point where the conversation takes a turn and we start talking about things such as the the absolute power stance of the DD, or how prospective changes might influence the overall balance of things in the future. Instead, you ignored all of that then vomited a condescending loaded question at my way.

For reference, shalien’s suggestion regarding mechanics in this thread is here, where you will notice that there is an absence of any specifics at all, outside of “rolling it into the elite spec mechanic”. I don’t even know who you are. You come into this thread with an ego over how I am willfully misunderstanding a post of unknown authorship, unknown location, and unknown content, accusing me of purposefully misunderstanding someone else that is not you.

Amante.8109:

People making invalid arguments do not in any way diminish those making similar but valid arguments. This is why you are being accused of straw-manning in the first place.

Except that’s not how it works, at all. You are accusing me of making things up from thin air (to do… what? be a hipster?). I am clearly not. I have proof that I am clearly not. That is the entire subject, and it ends there. I am not “diminishing similar but valid arguments” when it is very plainly elaborated on, sometimes in list form, what I am talking about. I am diminishing similar but invalid arguments to what you may have stated.

The world doesn’t revolve around you. If someone is talking about something that is similar but different from your idea, then it probably isn’t your idea. What you quoted me doing in the past isn’t shalien elaborating on his idea at all. It is ego in 3 sentences.

So what is the decision on Vault?

Does it evade now with 5 initiave?

Kocoff.7582:

So what is the decision on Vault?

Does it evade now with 5 initiave?

I’m pretty sure he said it was going down to 5 initiative and 3/4 second cast time.

According the main website, this is the “final” BWE and it’s irritating that a lot of the changes they’ve proposed will not be tested prior to release — that they will launch the expansion with half-fast profession skills. They will only have a little over 2.5 weeks after this BWE to finalize the changes…that’s cutting it really, really close.

I already feel sorry for the ArenaNet team who will put in tons of long of hours within that two and a half week time frame just to get this game ready for release.

Yeah I think the evasion was a trade-off option for 6 initiative. Honestly, 6 is too much for most things and Staff’s already one of the less optimal weapon sets (in the current meta… we can only theorize what happens after hoT) IMO it should have evasion added, increase the range to 900 and keep the initiative at 5. This way we’d have a real contender for Shortbow replacement.

Arctarius.2649:

please no…as a long time thief player, I don’t think we should have to worry about where we need to project ourselves in the split second reaction time we are given during a fight. We already have way more to manage than any other class as it is…I would much prefer it to be like heart seeker.

Actually, that is a valud point I hadn’t considered. Evade does need to be a quick/instant cast skill, and having to target where you want to go would slow that down a little. It needs to be reactive and ground target skills make that difficult. So I agree, maybe a ground target evade is not such a good idea after all.

Instead, I think it would be great if they could develop tech to allow skill 3 to evade in the direction you’re moving, like a weapon version of a dodge roll. That would make the one evade the staff has a whole lot better in my opinion, as it would give you more control over where you dodge to and would retain its reactive capability. I do not think the staff needs more than one evade, but I think we need more control over the evade we do have, somehow, without slowing it down at all.

As to adding a non-stealth interrupt option on staff, what about adding a conditional knockdown to vault? The knockdown would only trigger if you are above a certain initiative threshold when you cast it (say 75%)? So for example, if you are over 75% initiative when you press skill 5, vault will do a 1 second knockdown, but if you press 5 while under 75% it does extra damage or something instead?

Alternatively, maybe skill 4 could do a 1/4 second daze to your target if they are in melee range?

RE: Vault.There was a data-mined target option that will make ground-target skills center on your highlighted target, so don’t worry about that. Don’t make it a mechanic when it will be a choice.

I have to agree that it definitely needs evade frames, but going up to 6 Initiative again will be FAR too expensive.

Auesis.7301:

RE: Vault.There was a data-mined target option that will make ground-target skills center on your highlighted target, so don’t worry about that. Don’t make it a mechanic when it will be a choice.

I have to agree that it definitely needs evade frames, but going up to 6 Initiative again will be FAR too expensive.

I agree.

The same reasoning behind why Roy listened to the Rev community feedback in regards to unrelenting assault and it’s evasion frames. The same issue applies here. You’re not in control of your character, thus indicating the high risk/high reward nature.

i have main a thief since i started playing gw2 … i have more than 3k + pvp battle ‘s, i play a lot of WVW and pve.. and what i found very disappointing is how thief class it’s not worth playing anymore…
why i started with a thief? because, i always liked the way they play… they go inv, and they do a lot of damage… but now
we have mesmer-ranger-ing that can go inv as well… more than that.. mesmer almost have perma stealth, with the freaking clones that can do a lot of damage, if we add to that that they have skill that allow them to take no damage at all (we can add to that… the warriors- the rangers- guardians, and we can add.. why not the ele’s with earth trait they recive no crit. damage and they have perma health)….
but what amazed me the most, that all the classes have more burst damage than a thief, for example, mesmer with mantra’s and with 3-4 of gs skills they can take you in 2 if they hit you ( this.. is thinking that you are running a zerker build)… but for you to take a mesmer at least you have to be able to do 2 or 3 backstab… that right now the backstab is really easy to avoid…rangers for example if they hit you with the 4 of longbow… and next with pew pew.. they can make you 10k+ of damage in a really easy way—-traps rangers .. can take you in 3 sec if you cant avoid the traps.
… ing can take you to the ground and with the granades..well you are done if you get hit by that.. dont make me talk about burn guardian’s.. if you can’t go inv to clean the condi’s you are done ..(remember that if you are running a zerker build at least in pvp you only have 11k of hp!!:. 11k… really?? all the other class have at least 15k of hp… if you want to go zerk and have more vitality 17k hp i think you need the marauder amulet.. but you are losing damage with that… and even with that 17k hp its nothing cuz you have no defense.. 2 good hits and you are pretty much done
…. now lets talk about the new traits of all classes…. daredevil pretty much useless 150 endurance dont solve the main’s problems of the thief .. you change burst damage to sustain damage.. but in pvp or wvw when you get outnumber .. dodge dont work to well.. and we are back to the main problem of the thief.. that now is worse… cuz its seem that all classes can reaveal you!!!! (we are suposse to be the master of shadow … and we can’t reaveal anyone).. dont even think in using shadow refuge if you are fighting a ing .. cuz its going to make the sr useless… and you will get reveal dbuff
going bk for the sustain damage …. that is useless if you only have 1 condi clear.. you have no inv (cuz they can reveal you in a easy way)… so with daredevil no more burst damage (that all the other class have more than you anyway).. 150 endurance dont fix the main problems of the thief .. so its useless …
the buff to p/p.. well the damage its really good i have to admit that.. but i still prefer ricochet to the damage.. ricochet was the only good area damage that we thief have.. and you take it away from us…
i’m not much a fan of condi’s build.. but daredevil with d/d was good… but again if you get 2vs 1 you are dead (at least in pvp) … new traits of other class are way to op for the thief right now…
i dont want to leave my thief.. but right now .. in pvp its better to use other class than the thief.. (cuz the thief its seem its only good for dcap ) in wvw well… no comments about that.. pve pretty much the same as always

Auesis.7301:

RE: Vault.There was a data-mined target option that will make ground-target skills center on your highlighted target, so don’t worry about that. Don’t make it a mechanic when it will be a choice.

I have to agree that it definitely needs evade frames, but going up to 6 Initiative again will be FAR too expensive.

The main reason trickery isforcedon very build is due to that number 5 skill on so many weaponsets costing half of ones ini without preparedness.

raising vault to 6 would all but shoehorn us into trickery again meanining we only have one choice in traitlines.

I noticed, Vault tends to run a bit short. I was trying to precision aim it at some plants just to test it, and basically what happens is if you bullseye a plant, you actually land a couple feet short of it. I think this should change, the bullseye of the targetter should put your body exactly at its center.

Ohoni.6057:

I noticed, Vault tends to run a bit short. I was trying to precision aim it at some plants just to test it, and basically what happens is if you bullseye a plant, you actually land a couple feet short of it. I think this should change, the bullseye of the targetter should put your body exactly at its center.

This issue has been acknowledged by Karl already, so it should be fixed by release.

Besides making Bandits Defense 2seconds long could we by any chance make it where its a option if you want to use the knock back or not? Theres times where i just want the block not to be flinged back toward my opponent who might be bursting me

Jesse.4631:

Besides making Bandits Defense 2seconds long could we by any chance make it where its a option if you want to use the knock back or not? Theres times where i just want the block not to be flinged back toward my opponent who might be bursting me

i like this, sometimes you just want to block and haul kitten , sometimes you want to block then have gaint a NEW ABILITY TO KICK SOMEONE IN THE GROIN IF YOU BLOCKED AN ATTACK MELEE RANGE!!!…

looking at Flanking Strike>Larcenous Strike

Bandits Defense>Groin Kick

Heres an idea… get rid of staff

Michael.9517:

Heres an idea… get rid of staff

+1
thief bring nothing to the table for boss raid, thats right no one will need u at all period b/c all of the new elite class can do more dps than the DD thief

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

Jesse.4631:

Besides making Bandits Defense 2seconds long could we by any chance make it where its a option if you want to use the knock back or not? Theres times where i just want the block not to be flinged back toward my opponent who might be bursting me

i like this, sometimes you just want to block and haul kitten , sometimes you want to block then have gaint a NEW ABILITY TO KICK SOMEONE IN THE GROIN IF YOU BLOCKED AN ATTACK MELEE RANGE!!!…

looking at Flanking Strike>Larcenous Strike

Bandits Defense>Groin Kick

It should go from Bandits Defense to Bandits Offense and do a falcon kick linear nuke through several targets

Jesse.4631:

Besides making Bandits Defense 2seconds long could we by any chance make it where its a option if you want to use the knock back or not? Theres times where i just want the block not to be flinged back toward my opponent who might be bursting me

i’d like a toggle as well, or at the very least, give the kick full evasion. it’s a really long leap that you don’t always want, and it can throw you right back in the enemy line when you’re desperately trying to break the stun so you can run away.

Could really feel the improvement from last BWE. It was very reactive, and I could feel I could be in all places at once. Breaking stealth because of the some of the dodge rolls did have me swearing though. I think many of us did.
However, there are a lot of one shot kills on thieves right now. I saw a 10k gun flame, not including the double hit. Dragon hunters pack a bunch too. I hope that fragments trap is broken, cuz I saw several 5ks on that. I had a mix of berserker, knight and Valkyrie gear.

The smoothness of Dash is an incredible improvement over last BWE. I have to say, I was super disappointed in Daredevil when I first tried it in BWE2, but I had a blast playing it this time around. Amazing how much better Dash feels during gameplay now. Good job.

Here is my Beta-Weekend 3 Feedback for Daredevil:

I had a blast playig it this time and almost couldn’t stop jumping and dashing around. I tried several different builds, sPVP, WVW and some Dungeons and I feel it was viable everywhere. Daredevil starts to play as a class on it’s own I think. (Especially with Staff)

PVE: Power/Berserk build with Staff, Bound as dodge and Signet of Malice, No Quarter and Assasins Reward for heal it is fantastic to jump into large groups and deal massive AE damage while healing yourself!

WvW: I loved to dash around. Either with Critical Strikes/Acrobatics or Trickery/Acrobatics for better condi removal with tricks. Lyssa rune and Impact Strike is nice too. Tried dual pistol which was fun, but shortbow seemed better!

In sPVP Daredevil was hard to play for me. Also 1vs1 situations where very hard for me. Maybe that is because I’m not yet used to it or haven’t found the right build – or maybe it is just slightly too weak in comparison. I think there are other better builds out there which is sad, because I really like that new feeling to thief. :-)

Staff:

feels a lot better now, more fluid:

1. autoattack felt good with decent damage (animation is a placeholder I guess?)
2. Weakening Charge: in my opinion it would be great ot have a small avoid frame here, maybe it’s just because of the animation. It is really nice to use though and damage output is great. I think in terms of How you target your enemy yet move through it, it is perfect right now!
3. Debilitating Arc: Not sure about this onw. In combination with Vault or Bound nice though. You evade backwards and Leap back on your enemy dealing massive damage. Has quite some potential.
4. Dust Strike: Feels a lot better but still a little underwhelming. A Dark field would be fantastic and add greatly to Vault and bound.
5. Vault. I don’t think it needs an evade frame but maybe slightly more damage. It still is a high risk high cost ability in my opinion which is easily interupted in the middle without doing anything. With a Darkfield on 4 it would be great too. The Animation is a lot better now, but still slightly clunky.

Dodges feel a lot better now – the animations of dash and lotus are very strange though but I think they are still playceholders, are they? It would be great if dashing backwards looked different to dashing aside or forwards!

Physicals:

Fist Flurry: I’m still having problems using Fist Flurry. I guess I’d like to see the interrupt on the first strike, not having to hit 5 times then being able to land an interrupt.

Channeled Vigor is great.

Distracting Daggers: underwheling to me, but well..

Bandit’s Defense: Very nice against single targets.

Impairing Daggers: Not worth it.

ImpactStrike/etc.: Loving it!!

Cant wait to play DD again. :-)

This is why need dash on F3, I don’t want to take the DD trait just for the dash skill but I would like to use the dash skill. I think that is the best skill we got out of this.

Or please add the extra 3 initiative on the baseline.

@Karl

I just wanted to post this: I know we as thiefs are somewhat disenfranchised, I am one of those, but I wanted to take a moment to thank you for working on the class and wading through all the feedback whether positive or negative.

So, thank you sir.

herzeleid.3719:

Here is my Beta-Weekend 3 Feedback for Daredevil:

I had a blast playig it this time and almost couldn’t stop jumping and dashing around. I tried several different builds, sPVP, WVW and some Dungeons and I feel it was viable everywhere. Daredevil starts to play as a class on it’s own I think. (Especially with Staff)

PVE: Power/Berserk build with Staff, Bound as dodge and Signet of Malice, No Quarter and Assasins Reward for heal it is fantastic to jump into large groups and deal massive AE damage while healing yourself!

WvW: I loved to dash around. Either with Critical Strikes/Acrobatics or Trickery/Acrobatics for better condi removal with tricks. Lyssa rune and Impact Strike is nice too. Tried dual pistol which was fun, but shortbow seemed better!

In sPVP Daredevil was hard to play for me. Also 1vs1 situations where very hard for me. Maybe that is because I’m not yet used to it or haven’t found the right build – or maybe it is just slightly too weak in comparison. I think there are other better builds out there which is sad, because I really like that new feeling to thief. :-)

Staff:

feels a lot better now, more fluid:

1. autoattack felt good with decent damage (animation is a placeholder I guess?)
2. Weakening Charge: in my opinion it would be great ot have a small avoid frame here, maybe it’s just because of the animation. It is really nice to use though and damage output is great. I think in terms of How you target your enemy yet move through it, it is perfect right now!
3. Debilitating Arc: Not sure about this onw. In combination with Vault or Bound nice though. You evade backwards and Leap back on your enemy dealing massive damage. Has quite some potential.
4. Dust Strike: Feels a lot better but still a little underwhelming. A Dark field would be fantastic and add greatly to Vault and bound.
5. Vault. I don’t think it needs an evade frame but maybe slightly more damage. It still is a high risk high cost ability in my opinion which is easily interupted in the middle without doing anything. With a Darkfield on 4 it would be great too. The Animation is a lot better now, but still slightly clunky.

Dodges feel a lot better now – the animations of dash and lotus are very strange though but I think they are still playceholders, are they? It would be great if dashing backwards looked different to dashing aside or forwards!

Physicals:

Fist Flurry: I’m still having problems using Fist Flurry. I guess I’d like to see the interrupt on the first strike, not having to hit 5 times then being able to land an interrupt.

Channeled Vigor is great.

Distracting Daggers: underwheling to me, but well..

Bandit’s Defense: Very nice against single targets.

Impairing Daggers: Not worth it.

ImpactStrike/etc.: Loving it!!

Cant wait to play DD again. :-)

Dark field? …. no… smoke field yes.

as for my 2 cents.

While I do realize that there are several topics based on this specific elite specialization, I figured the best way tho get others to notice a few, if not all, of the points I make.
Well start off with the staff attacks then move to the utilities followed by the traits.
While I understand the reasoning to give the thief a supportive role with staff and a few extra dodges slapping an extra endurance bar on a thief then saying it is am elite specialization is like asking Trahearne to give your mother a card and him taking credit for it. Same goes for the tempest.
Hookstrike, while effective for what it does there is hardly reason to take stealth on a class that should be stragglers just to access one skill such as this one
The staff Punishing Strikes… While reflecting projectiles seems great it’s hardly useful since you can’t exactly time it or keep itnup to actually reflect important deadly missiles coming your way aside from hugging your opponent and auto attacking and getting this skill to acrivate during such a fluke would be just that. The access is just more of a nuisance as it is a small goal.
Dust strike has had an improvement justin the casting time but I personally fail to see why it has three separated impacts like the revanent mace skill blasts. This should either be a short duration Smokescreen skill casted outward or a linear attack like the Druid skill 4 on the staff though obviously shorter range OR even taken into account that black powder- like effect could give more up front and personal support combined with punishing strikes instead of having to back out of fights to blind from range, which might I add, is contradictory to the name “daredevil”.
Vault also has had it’s promised initiative change from six to five however aside from the tooltip OR range OR impact radius bugs this skill should indeed become an evade during its usage to “vault out” of the way or into combat. Five initiative still stresses thought of careful usage rather than spam of the skill. Interestingly enough you can’t steal while in midair which means no one can directly port to you either because you are in the air and a No Valid Path To Target individual.
Utilities: while they currently aren’t effected by improvisation here at the concerns.
Fists of fury: good skill except it practically never hits anything resulting a need to take panic strike trait or wasting a utility slot for devoured venom or using basilisk venom. Skill needs to use melee attack assist so you could at least rotate and keep hitting your target if it circles you. Why not add a reflect projectile skill effect?!?
Bandit’s Defense great except its no where near on par with other classes’ blocks and should be at least 2 seconds to block. Even this skill can stop a backstab or earth shaker warrior.
Distracting daggers is ok however 10s penalty to enemy hardly seems enough and let alone you can only keep it active for fifteen seconds while mesmer mantras can be kept indefinitely if not used. Kind of hard to believe from a logical standpoint that you cant hold onto daggers permanently and then lose concentration on a mantra… should be 15 seconds uptime for mantras and indefinite for a physical object like distracting daggers.
Impairing daggers should act like distracting daggers and allow an individual dagger to be thrown if we want to lock down a target in a chain.
The elite im alright with. As well as the healing skill
The traits hardly have what it takes to actually keep damaging conditions off of you unless you go into shadow arts which again contradicts the point of a stealthless playstyle of the daredevil.
Lotus training, Unhindered Combantant & Bounding dodger need to be REMOVED as traits and added as f3,4,and 5 skills , 3 dodge bars = 3 types of dodges that could be used, if you dont use one of your spec dodges then you can hit “V” and get a NORMAL dodge. which would leave room for 3 NEW and USEFUL grandmaster traits.
want to get place to place? hit your F4….guess what, you used DASH….want to leap on some poor fool? F5 and VAULT dodge onto him….want to mix it up a bit with conditions? F3 with Lotus Training dodge.
Weakening Strikes: Cooldown is too long unless the weakness actually lasted long enough, however if you take staff and spam 2 theres no real point for this trait.

Maybe they should lock this thread so people post in the other one.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/BWE3-live-feedback-chat-room/first

Dark field? …. no… smoke field yes.

as for my 2 cents.

Smoke Field would be too much, you can go into stealth using a Smoke Field and that’s clearly something they don’t want for staff/DD. Dark Fields proc blinds, which fits perfectly with what the DD does.

Why the heck not? The staff does have a stealth attack does it not? One of the biggest failures with the daredevil spec right now is its complete failure to synergize with any of our other trees. A smoke field would grant us stealth access which daredevil is sorely lacking, which could start to give us some of that synergy which basically every other class has.

wolfpaq.7354:

Why the heck not? The staff does have a stealth attack does it not? One of the biggest failures with the daredevil spec right now is its complete failure to synergize with any of our other trees. A smoke field would grant us stealth access which daredevil is sorely lacking, which could start to give us some of that synergy which basically every other class has.

I think you meant to say “synergizes extremely well with all our other trees except SA, and it’s even good with SA if you take dash”

You do realize the point of staff, specifically, is that it has a crazy good low damage stun as a sneak attack, but pays for that power by not having weapon access to stealth so you have to take a util or use teammates if you want to use it, right?

The rest of the set other than staff has insanely good synergy with our other lines and weapon sets. It adds a leap finisher on dodge so p/p has access to more stealth at range. It stacks sustain. It stacks damage. I have been hard pressed to find a single thief build that DD doesn’t improve with the exception of all-glass signet backstab, which, TBH, is a gimmick build useless for actual fights in the first place.

You realize that the entire point of daredevil is a mostly stealthless spec, as evade sustain is intended to be a viable build alternative to stealth for thieves and always has been the intention

Why everyone demands every weapon has the ability to spam weapon stealth is beyond me.

Just because non-stealth builds suck right now in live doesn’t mean they’re intended to suck at a conceptual level. Anet is just bad at actually balancing the thief profession, so we all got it in our heads that it’s shadow arts or GTFO.

Most of DD is about enhancing non-stealth builds.

-Staff feels like it was made to be an alternative to shortbow. Staff feels somewhat lackluster because of it. Primarily, staff #3 is a fairly useless skill as it doesn’t provide enough protection or spacing. Also, having projectile reflect on auto 3 makes it unusable for that particular purpose. I think moving dust strike to #3 as a 4 initiative skill, and adding a new #4 at 5 initiative that fills a more needed role would be better.

-Distracting dagger has a 1s cooldown between usage right now. I think that is unnecessary. Additionally, while the bigger hitbox makes it easier to land the hit, it also makes it much harder to get past obstacles between you and the intended target. Hopefully there is a way to reach a medium between reliably hitting but not detrimental to spacing.

Why the heck not? The staff does have a stealth attack does it not? One of the biggest failures with the daredevil spec right now is its complete failure to synergize with any of our other trees.

It synergizes great with most of the trees, it’s just not a stealth-based spec, and that’s perfectly ok. Not every Thief spec has to be based around Stealth. If you do want Stealth, you can use Shadow refuge, Hide in Shadows, or use other weapons.

DD is not “sorely lacking” in stealth, it’s just lacking in it, which is ok.

I think moving dust strike to #3 as a 4 initiative skill, and adding a new #4 at 5 initiative that fills a more needed role would be better.

The position of a skill does not change it’s cost. Also, most #3 skills have some element of “retreat” or some kind of defensive/movement purpose, while most #4s on melee weapons are a ranged pressure option, so these two abilities are fine. They could buff up each a bit in effectiveness, but their core functions are exactly what they should be, a “pull back” evade, and a ranged blind effect.

staff 4 needs a field.

im down for a dark field, like a ring around toon would a) look good, staff2 would leech -imo add to the sustain, blast is a nice area blind and allies could take advantage.
And because it would look really good.

glad the animations are place holder, sticking 1 leg up in dash made me feel like a really fast teapot

im down for a dark field, like a ring around toon would a) look good, staff2 would leech -imo add to the sustain, blast is a nice area blind and allies could take advantage.
And because it would look really good.

If it projected either a small rectangular field in front of you, or small circle around you, and then automatically launch a small chip-damage projectile, that would blind the target hit, just as the skill currently does, while leaving a field that you could leap/blast through for additional blinds, or projectile/whirl for life-leech.

I agree with others that the staff doesn’t need a smoke field. As much as I would be happy if it had one, I do not think it fits the theme of the DD. I like the idea of a dark field, but again I’m not sure how they can thematically justify it. Dark fields are magical in nature and DD is physical, so I am not sure Anet would go for a dark field, unfortunately.

As much as I would love there to be some kind of self combo set up on staff, I just cannot see it happening. That said, staff 4 really needs something done to it as I think the skill is the weakest on the weapon, and I don’t think many will be using it much. A single pulse of blind for 4 initiative is far too costly in my opinion, even if it can hit multiple targets. The most I would want to pay for it is 3 ini.

For a cost of 4 ini I would want to see some extra functionality added, and to me this skill is a good candidate for a melee daze. Keep the functionality as it currently is, with a ranged blind in a line, but add a short daze to your selected target if they are in melee range. Considering headshot is a 4 ini cost ranged daze I don’t see it being a problem adding a melee daze and keeping the cost at 4 ini, as the ranged blind makes up for the lack of a ranged daze.

Personally, I don’t think we will see functionality changes on any of our skills. Number tweaks are all we will be getting now.

I’d prefer a dark field on Staff 4 over a smoke field for a variety of reasons:

1. because we have access to smoke fields with other skills (pistol 5, smoke screen) and to stealth with lots of other utilities . (Shadow Refuge is a dark field I know, but I usually don’t do combos in it for not getting revealed)

I haven’t tested staff with shadow arts. Doesn’t make too much sense to me right now. Lotus training was really strong last Beta and I can totally see myself going Condi with Shadow Arts, Daredevil (Lotus) and Trickery – DD/PD or SB. But that isn’t Staff and I personally prefer direct damage over condi with my thief.

2. Dark fields synergize better with a non stealth role: more AE blinds and life-leech

3. no stealth needed. Use signet of Agility, Acrobatics trait line, plus Withdraw and Roll for Initiative and you have a sheer unlimited number of evades – almost 6 dodges in a row plus perma swiftness!!! – Add “trickster” and “Escapists Absolution” for great condi removal. That’s why I personally liked the Daredevil being a non stealth build!

And that’s why I did like staff 3 too. It’s yet an extra evade. If combined with the “Bound” dodge variant it is especialy usefull because it will move you from your target to exactly the position it takes to land a “Bound” on it! That’s some nice synergy there (especially if we had a dark field.. ).

I also liked Staff 2 ifor that matter. It’s great. Lots of weakness for little initiative cost plus quite a lot of damage if you manage to hit the enemy with the last few animation strikes – which again puts Staff 3 to use – add another evade frame and it’s perfect.

Honestly I very much liked the Daredevil – if they fix the animations and do a little tweaking with the numbers I’d go with it even though there might be better PVP builds out there.

That being said, we might not get any field on Staff 4 at all.

(And by the way: Getting invisible? Not magic? I think Dark doesn’t make more or less sense than Smoke does – Shadow Refuge IS a dark field and hey: my thief IS magic! )

herzeleid.3719:

(And by the way: Getting invisible? Not magic? I think Dark doesn’t make more or less sense than Smoke does – Shadow Refuge IS a dark field and hey: my thief IS magic! )

I didn’t say stealth wasn’t magic, I said the Daredevil wasn’t about using magic, hence why they have no direct access to stealth with their weapon, skills and traits. As to dark fields being magic and smoke not, there are things such as smoke bombs and creating dust clouds, which aren’t magic, but it is hard to create a non-magic reason for a dark field. Ok, the dust cloud isn’t smoke but it is a similar effect that could be represented by a smoke field.

The staff skill 4 is supposed to be you kicking dust into the air to blind people, if that was changed to swirl dust around you, creating a dust cloud, they could use a smoke field to represent it. But as others have already said, we have enough smoke fields as it is, and I do not think Anet wants the staff to give the Daredevil easy access to stealth.

For fun I did picture a way for the DD to gain access to a fire field: Vault could be changed to a dash skill, were you charge forwards very fast dragging your staff along the ground behind you. This dragging motion creates such friction that the ground bursts into flames in your wake, creating a temporary fire field. This could then be used to charge through your opponent, putting a fire field on them, then whirl back to them using skill 2 to apply more burning. While I’m only suggesting this for fun, I would actually prefer something like this to another smoke field, as it would offer a way for the DD to give more offensive support to its allies.

I think so long as you can come up with some physical way to produce a particular field type, it will be ok. But I am struggling to find a non-magical way to create a dark field.

Any thoughts or words from karl yet, what he thinks about, what in the end might be changed all within the next 17 days for the Thief, based on our Beta Feedback here?

So far we know only, that some animations are still in the works and that what we have seen so far were just place holders (stubs as it has been called)

What I would like to know by now only, in which kind of way the skills and traits will get changed now, based from our feedback to brign the Thief Spec finally to a spot, where it seems to be viable compared to all the other power creeped E-Specs…