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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

All ranged classes already shut down thief with 1 abilility big deal.
u hit them so hard they have to reset the fight in meanwhile u kill all his friends thats why more than 1 theif on team is detrimental.
I have yet to see anyone slot in reveal skill just to kill 1 theif.

the issue with that is that engis don’t really lose much if they trait into lock on (speedy kits got nerfed anyway and engis can get 25% perma speed increase if they wanted) while other classes did~

engi revealing build is actually viable where ranger one wasn’t so much

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Posted by: Jayden Ennok.3687

Jayden Ennok.3687

It all boils down to anet’s laziness to implement another stealth debuff that only removes *in*visibility ? but not the effects associated with stealth. With that current reveal skills wouldn’t be such a hard counter to thief, they could even give longer invisibility debuff duration.

Engies could sprinkle some glitter on thieves just like witcher :P

How should that work if everything is tied to stealth? It doesn’t.
I just come from a fight with a condi thief (meh) who put 3!!!!!!! stealth traps into all camps he either had or wanted to cap – there was nothing I could do as a power stealth thief (other than ask for help in map chat) – I don’t consider this guy to be a thief.
There is already a lot of counter to stealth/damage from stealth actually, engis have got either shield or their toolbelt shield, they can also shrink and take no damage, they can also make themselves invisible and have got access to a lot of AoE all good weapons against a thief. You just need to know when to use them.

Or if everything fails, just spend your gold on stealth traps.

I am not sure what you are about in your post. All I said was that reveal is such a hardcounter to thieves just cos anet used the same effect designed to put cd on entering stealth and gave it other classes/traps to help people who complained about perma invi thieves.

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

I am not sure what you are about in your post. All I said was that reveal is such a hardcounter to thieves just cos anet used the same effect designed to put cd on entering stealth and gave it other classes/traps to help people who complained about perma invi thieves.

What I meant is: Thief is designed to get all good things with stealth, you can’t just take the invisibility away as you’re removing all other stuff with this as well. I think to change that the whole class would need to be redesigned.

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Posted by: Lenaios.2781

Lenaios.2781

That’s the whole point of counterplay. Like if you destroy mesmer clones, the shatters wont come as strong or are almost useless and so forth. Also stop treating stealth as thief profession mechanic because it’s not. you get bonuses to it from traits sure, but so do others. Crying about this change is like crying that thief can steal the boons that PU gives.

(edited by Lenaios.2781)

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

That’s the whole point of counterplay. Like if you destroy mesmer clones, the shatters wont come as strong or are almost useless and so forth. Also stop treating stealth as thief profession mechanic because it’s not. you get bonuses to it from traits sure, but so do others. Crying about this change is like crying that thief can steal the boons that PU gives.

No, it isn’t, you can’t take away guards heal, burst and aegis with one skill. And hinder him to use any of his skills for 6 secs afterwards. It’s okay if you know nothing about thief, but just believe those who wrote in this thread and explained why it would be a bad idea.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

That’s the whole point of counterplay. Like if you destroy mesmer clones, the shatters wont come as strong or are almost useless and so forth. Also stop treating stealth as thief profession mechanic because it’s not. you get bonuses to it from traits sure, but so do others. Crying about this change is like crying that thief can steal the boons that PU gives.

why can’t thief have trait that locks out entire defensive side of engis?

counters are ok but this one is probably most lazy and brainless counter to stealth implemented… the only thing that could be more brainless/lazy would be revealing aura…

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(edited by Cynz.9437)

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Posted by: Lenaios.2781

Lenaios.2781

Basilisk Venom+Choking Gas for that heal stop. Also thieves can still use their heal while revealed, do very good dmg and can use most of their skills too (all actually, except the stealth ones don’t stealth while being revealed).

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Basilisk Venom+Choking Gas for that heal stop. Also thieves can still use their heal while revealed, do very good dmg and can use most of their skills too (all actually, except the stealth ones don’t stealth while being revealed).

you really don’t understand the issue do you?

lock on denies team support (not like thief got a lot from it)
lock on denies entire trait line
lock on encourages evade build and discourages use of backstab (that is already worthless most of the time vs engis)

lock on is lazy and brainless….

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Posted by: Coronit.9432

Coronit.9432

Basilisk Venom+Choking Gas for that heal stop. Also thieves can still use their heal while revealed, do very good dmg and can use most of their skills too (all actually, except the stealth ones don’t stealth while being revealed).

lol, that counterplay to a block needs an elite-skill and a skill on shortbow in short enough time.
Lets say you are on SB (not on the other weaponset and cd on switch) and see a guard using shelter. Now you need have basilis-venom ready if not being on cd (45sec), often used for other reason, cast it (1sec) and hit the guard in time with the choking gas. Thats needs far more preparation than (hit an enemy in stealth (20sec cd)).
Yeah, we can use our heal, but what if it goes back to the old 26006 (66006) with hide in shadows in need of a condiremove – easy interruptable and gives stealth —-> revealed.
Withdraw can get you shortly out of trouble. Engi still can reach you easily with their range. Using a port is another option but has an cd of 50sec. To go aggressive? As a thief you should normally NEVER engage an engi 1vs1 in pvp. Especially not in a teamfight. Without stealth you are dead there…
On legacy you could maybe go to the ledge and use SB. But with revealed you gonna be in focus for every enemy zerker-class, thief, guard, ele, mesmer, ranger, etc. Try to run away from a ranger with their standart – 1900 range without stealth.

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Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

Basilisk Venom+Choking Gas for that heal stop. Also thieves can still use their heal while revealed, do very good dmg and can use most of their skills too (all actually, except the stealth ones don’t stealth while being revealed).

you really don’t understand the issue do you?

lock on denies team support (not like thief got a lot from it)
lock on denies entire trait line
lock on encourages evade build and discourages use of backstab (that is already worthless most of the time vs engis)

lock on is lazy and brainless….

Pretty sure P/D is also left unhindered for the most part… And EVERYONE loves P/D…

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Basilisk Venom+Choking Gas for that heal stop. Also thieves can still use their heal while revealed, do very good dmg and can use most of their skills too (all actually, except the stealth ones don’t stealth while being revealed).

you really don’t understand the issue do you?

lock on denies team support (not like thief got a lot from it)
lock on denies entire trait line
lock on encourages evade build and discourages use of backstab (that is already worthless most of the time vs engis)

lock on is lazy and brainless….

Pretty sure P/D is also left unhindered for the most part… And EVERYONE loves P/D…

i don’t consider p/d a thief…<_< it is disgrace to the class~

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Posted by: Lenaios.2781

Lenaios.2781

Basilisk Venom+Choking Gas for that heal stop. Also thieves can still use their heal while revealed, do very good dmg and can use most of their skills too (all actually, except the stealth ones don’t stealth while being revealed).

you really don’t understand the issue do you?

lock on denies team support (not like thief got a lot from it)
lock on denies entire trait line
lock on encourages evade build and discourages use of backstab (that is already worthless most of the time vs engis)

lock on is lazy and brainless….

Shadow Arts is lazy and brainless.

Yes, lock on will prevent stealth resses but wont affect stealth rotations.(other “ress utilities” like shadow refuge are easily interruptible)
Shadow Arts denies entire professions as you can just not fight(obv this wont affect conquest were you must be active)
Even with lock on thief will continue to be on top in conquest(now along with mesmer, which also has traits, most of their survivability and ability to burst tied to stealth)

Did I mention that Shadow Arts is lazy and brainless…

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Basilisk Venom+Choking Gas for that heal stop. Also thieves can still use their heal while revealed, do very good dmg and can use most of their skills too (all actually, except the stealth ones don’t stealth while being revealed).

you really don’t understand the issue do you?

lock on denies team support (not like thief got a lot from it)
lock on denies entire trait line
lock on encourages evade build and discourages use of backstab (that is already worthless most of the time vs engis)

lock on is lazy and brainless….

Shadow Arts is lazy and brainless.

Yes, lock on will prevent stealth resses but wont affect stealth rotations.(other “ress utilities” like shadow refuge are easily interruptible)
Shadow Arts denies entire professions as you can just not fight(obv this wont affect conquest were you must be active)
Even with lock on thief will continue to be on top in conquest(now along with mesmer, which also has traits, most of their survivability and ability to burst tied to stealth)

Did I mention that Shadow Arts is lazy and brainless…

SA requires stealth…. lock on requires engi roll face on keyboard… or just fart

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

Pretty sure P/D is also left unhindered for the most part… And EVERYONE loves P/D…

I said it: If my power thief gets nerfed into oblivion I’ll become the most annoying condi thief anyone has ever seen. I’ll have to beat the shadow trap condi thief I met earlier and second child, which will be really hard, but I stick to my promises.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Pretty sure P/D is also left unhindered for the most part… And EVERYONE loves P/D…

I said it: If my power thief gets nerfed into oblivion I’ll become the most annoying condi thief anyone has ever seen. I’ll have to beat the shadow trap condi thief I met earlier and second child, which will be really hard, but I stick to my promises.

Jana, just join the evade squad. It is more annoying to fight than p/d even lol. I even got bolt ready xD (cya quip :<)

Speaking of which, maybe on 23rd whole Teef guild should go s/d and spam pvp xD I definitely will be and on each kill i will be spamming: you begged anet for this!

All is Vain~
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(edited by Cynz.9437)

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Posted by: Lenaios.2781

Lenaios.2781

I’m still not sure why some thieves are acting like they are nerfed… Overall you will get stronger, sure one extra profession can reveal you if you dont know what you are doing.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

I’m still not sure why some thieves are acting like they are nerfed… Overall you will get stronger, sure one extra profession can reveal you if you dont know what you are doing.

idk if he simply doesn’t understand, my english isn’t good enough or….

nobody says thieves got nerfed it is just the fact that lock on is too good and too easy to use and was given class that already destroys thieves…

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Posted by: Lenaios.2781

Lenaios.2781

I’m still not sure why some thieves are acting like they are nerfed… Overall you will get stronger, sure one extra profession can reveal you if you dont know what you are doing.

idk if he simply doesn’t understand, my english isn’t good enough or….

nobody says thieves got nerfed it is just the fact that lock on is too good and too easy to use and was given class that already destroys thieves…

Many people here are crying that thief is nerfed etc. Pressing buttons is indeed easy.

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Posted by: King.1985

King.1985

This argument isn’t over whether SA is op, or stealth is op, or any of that. There’s already plenty of soft counters to stealth. A long time ago Anet said they wanted to stay away from hard class counters, as they should. A step in the right direction would be to make this skill show thieves to the engi using “glitter” as someone mentioned earlier. I personally feel theres enough soft counters to stealth already for it to not be a problem, but since the majority can’t seem to grasp it I’m fine with adding another (the glitter thing)

Soft counters to stealth already
-Can’t cap/decap while stealthed
-Stealth is always counterable by a logical player
—Examples: black powder+hs – rupt the HS
—-cnd – blind/block/dodge the cnd
—-Hide in shadows- long cast time/easy to rupt
—-shadow refuge – automatic aoe bomb target/aoe knockback in the SR
—- channeled skills track through stealth
—-Thieves are not immune to damage… aka condis/aoes etc

I’m not going to defend and try to say stealth is perfectly balanced, but there are plenty of ways to play around it. If you insist on hard counters like the ones in game already IE stealth traps/sic em/analyze, make it NOT PASSIVE and make it require an investment. That is all i must add here

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Posted by: Lenaios.2781

Lenaios.2781

This argument isn’t over whether SA is op, or stealth is op, or any of that. There’s already plenty of soft counters to stealth. A long time ago Anet said they wanted to stay away from hard class counters, as they should. A step in the right direction would be to make this skill show thieves to the engi using “glitter” as someone mentioned earlier. I personally feel theres enough soft counters to stealth already for it to not be a problem, but since the majority can’t seem to grasp it I’m fine with adding another (the glitter thing)

Soft counters to stealth already
-Can’t cap/decap while stealthed
-Stealth is always counterable by a logical player
—Examples: black powder+hs – rupt the HS
—-cnd – blind/block/dodge the cnd
—-Hide in shadows- long cast time/easy to rupt
—-shadow refuge – automatic aoe bomb target/aoe knockback in the SR
—- channeled skills track through stealth
—-Thieves are not immune to damage… aka condis/aoes etc

I’m not going to defend and try to say stealth is perfectly balanced, but there are plenty of ways to play around it. If you insist on hard counters like the ones in game already IE stealth traps/sic em/analyze, make it NOT PASSIVE and make it require an investment. That is all i must add here

This post I like and agree. Now only if they would remove the passive bonuses thieves and mesmers get(if traited) while in stealth these kind of hard counters wouldnt be even needed and the game would be much better. There is nothing wrong with the current panic strike thief meta stealth, but fighting full shadow arts thief or PU mesmer is just not fun.

(edited by Lenaios.2781)

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Posted by: Coronit.9432

Coronit.9432

This argument isn’t over whether SA is op, or stealth is op, or any of that. There’s already plenty of soft counters to stealth. A long time ago Anet said they wanted to stay away from hard class counters, as they should. A step in the right direction would be to make this skill show thieves to the engi using “glitter” as someone mentioned earlier. I personally feel theres enough soft counters to stealth already for it to not be a problem, but since the majority can’t seem to grasp it I’m fine with adding another (the glitter thing)

Soft counters to stealth already
-Can’t cap/decap while stealthed
-Stealth is always counterable by a logical player
—Examples: black powder+hs – rupt the HS
—-cnd – blind/block/dodge the cnd
—-Hide in shadows- long cast time/easy to rupt
—-shadow refuge – automatic aoe bomb target/aoe knockback in the SR
—- channeled skills track through stealth
—-Thieves are not immune to damage… aka condis/aoes etc

I’m not going to defend and try to say stealth is perfectly balanced, but there are plenty of ways to play around it. If you insist on hard counters like the ones in game already IE stealth traps/sic em/analyze, make it NOT PASSIVE and make it require an investment. That is all i must add here

This post I like and agree. Now only if they would remove the passive bonuses thieves and mesmers get(if traited) while in stealth these kind of hard counters wouldnt be even needed and the game would be much better. There is nothing wrong with the current panic strike thief meta stealth, but fighting full shadow arts thief or PU mesmer is just not fun.

Like getting health and inititative when entering revealed, forcing the thief to engage more instead of restealthing or resetting. It was discussed and proposed. Instead we get that brainless hardcounter thrown at us and feline grace nerfed into oblivion. I think almost everyone would have been satisfied when the endurance through feline grace only granted on successful evade. Instead they did that bullkitten.
Of course we got some buffs. Everyone got them. But thats the point. Some buffs got covered with nerfs. Giving a trait so tricks remove one condition and 20% less recharge time? Sounds good, but can´t compete with bountiful theft which could be nerfed through random boonsteal, too. About that we don´t know much though. Quick pockets in trickery? Loughable. Wasn´t used that much before (I used it a bit, couldn´t compete with power of inertia imo) and wont be now when having to compete with sleight of hand. Vigorous Recovery has to compete with pain response, etc.
Yes, now we can run 60606 in pvp, what I don´t like. Don´t understand me wrong, I really like stealth as a mechanic. What I don´t like is to be forced to play full SA. Maybe meta will be 66006 full damage with almost no condi-removal. I didn´t liked that either.

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

This argument isn’t over whether SA is op, or stealth is op, or any of that. There’s already plenty of soft counters to stealth. A long time ago Anet said they wanted to stay away from hard class counters, as they should. A step in the right direction would be to make this skill show thieves to the engi using “glitter” as someone mentioned earlier. I personally feel theres enough soft counters to stealth already for it to not be a problem, but since the majority can’t seem to grasp it I’m fine with adding another (the glitter thing)

Soft counters to stealth already
-Can’t cap/decap while stealthed
-Stealth is always counterable by a logical player
—Examples: black powder+hs – rupt the HS
—-cnd – blind/block/dodge the cnd
—-Hide in shadows- long cast time/easy to rupt
—-shadow refuge – automatic aoe bomb target/aoe knockback in the SR
—- channeled skills track through stealth
—-Thieves are not immune to damage… aka condis/aoes etc

I’m not going to defend and try to say stealth is perfectly balanced, but there are plenty of ways to play around it. If you insist on hard counters like the ones in game already IE stealth traps/sic em/analyze, make it NOT PASSIVE and make it require an investment. That is all i must add here

This post I like and agree. Now only if they would remove the passive bonuses thieves and mesmers get(if traited) while in stealth these kind of hard counters wouldnt be even needed and the game would be much better. There is nothing wrong with the current panic strike thief meta stealth, but fighting full shadow arts thief or PU mesmer is just not fun.

Your last sentence makes me hesitant to not drop your argument completely even though I agree with some of it. I assure you playing against a competent lockdown mesmer is not fun. Play against a competent s/d thief is not fun. Fun has nothing to do with anything.

Let me show you what hard counters look like:

  • diamond skin to all condition application
  • stability to all cc application
  • resistance to all effects of conditions
  • chill to alacrity, removing the effect of the boon and adding 66% movement reduction
  • any skill (like mist form) or rune (like vampirism) that can provide an immunity

and now lock on

What do these all share? They completely stop the effects of a skill/mechanic. But they all have caveats.

Lock on’s caveats as I see are. To push the reveal past 6 seconds you need to trait for kinetic charge and have utility goggles on your bar. You need to hit someone in stealth and then in the next 10ish seconds dodge an attack, and activate analyze, then wait 6 seconds and activate it again. Giving them 2 seconds to get into stealth again. But effectively locking them out of stealth forever.

It is up to you to decide whether those are large enough caveats.

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Posted by: yolo swaggins.2570

yolo swaggins.2570

Hard counters make for bad gameplay and players. I am sure someone is going to come here to try to argue that stealth is a hardcounter to everything but the reality is it only ever hardcountered bad players.

I think there should be ways to shut down other professions’ traitlines. That’d be nice.

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

THIS is a cool change my friend…

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Posted by: Kain Francois.4328

Kain Francois.4328

I like how there are hard-counters to certain clases. It makes the game more like TF2.

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Posted by: Jayden Ennok.3687

Jayden Ennok.3687

I am not sure what you are about in your post. All I said was that reveal is such a hardcounter to thieves just cos anet used the same effect designed to put cd on entering stealth and gave it other classes/traps to help people who complained about perma invi thieves.

What I meant is: Thief is designed to get all good things with stealth, you can’t just take the invisibility away as you’re removing all other stuff with this as well. I think to change that the whole class would need to be redesigned.

What I suggested was a new debuff that could be given to other classes/stealth trap instead of current reveal that would remove invisibility without causing reveal. It’s reveal that removes all the good things, not visibility (even now you can backstab fully visible and it’s a proper backstab).

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

What I suggested was a new debuff that could be given to other classes/stealth trap instead of current reveal that would remove invisibility without causing reveal. It’s reveal that removes all the good things, not visibility (even now you can backstab fully visible and it’s a proper backstab).

Yes and no, the SA line currently gives condi removal, might, health and “backstab”. You need to be stealthed to get more of everything, one condition per pulse will be cleansed, you gain 1 stack of might per pulse, you gain +320 health per pulse) With reveal all of that is gone. It will be slightly different after that patch, but stillyou’ll gain more of what you’ve traited for the longer you’re stealthed.

Anyway: I get your point (finally) you mean that something that would make a thief visible without the revealed debuff. Ok. So in that case the condi remove would’ve been interrupted but not denied for 6 seconds + as the thief can stealth right away as long as he’s got enough initative.
That is a smarter approach, yes. The thief has got a disadvantage but still a chance and doesn’t neccessarily turn into a free lootbag. But the question still is: Why are engis the ones who get this trait? shouldn’t every class have it? And if so, wouldn’t it be better if no class had it and they were balanced in other ways than to base one trait (and several skills) on 4 classes? As far as I know there’s no mechanic that is especially suited to counter a core mechanic of another class.

But: As long as the new condis won’t pulverize me on sight I won’t take SA anymore, I will still be a backstabbing thief but use evades and ports- we warned you

Edit: Oh, didn’t see that: “(even now you can backstab fully visible and it’s a proper backstab)”
No, you can’t.

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Posted by: Jesiah.2457

Jesiah.2457

Anet creating something that’s poorly thought out and bad design and promotes passive rather than active gameplay on top of giving it ridiculously OP numbers?

Sounds like Anet to me, welcome to their wishful thinking variation of “esports”.

Edit: Honestly, ICD should be longer and reveal shouldn’t be so long on such an easy mode cheese and literally passive mechanic.

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Posted by: Jayden Ennok.3687

Jayden Ennok.3687

What I suggested was a new debuff that could be given to other classes/stealth trap instead of current reveal that would remove invisibility without causing reveal. It’s reveal that removes all the good things, not visibility (even now you can backstab fully visible and it’s a proper backstab).

Yes and no, the SA line currently gives condi removal, might, health and “backstab”. You need to be stealthed to get more of everything, one condition per pulse will be cleansed, you gain 1 stack of might per pulse, you gain +320 health per pulse) With reveal all of that is gone. It will be slightly different after that patch, but stillyou’ll gain more of what you’ve traited for the longer you’re stealthed.

Anyway: I get your point (finally) you mean that something that would make a thief visible without the revealed debuff. Ok. So in that case the condi remove would’ve been interrupted but not denied for 6 seconds + as the thief can stealth right away as long as he’s got enough initative.
That is a smarter approach, yes. The thief has got a disadvantage but still a chance and doesn’t neccessarily turn into a free lootbag. But the question still is: Why are engis the ones who get this trait? shouldn’t every class have it? And if so, wouldn’t it be better if no class had it and they were balanced in other ways than to base one trait (and several skills) on 4 classes? As far as I know there’s no mechanic that is especially suited to counter a core mechanic of another class.

But: As long as the new condis won’t pulverize me on sight I won’t take SA anymore, I will still be a backstabbing thief but use evades and ports- we warned you

Edit: Oh, didn’t see that: “(even now you can backstab fully visible and it’s a proper backstab)”
No, you can’t.

If anet would actually make a new debuff that only removes invsibility and leaves all stealth benefits, I think all classes could have access to skills that give that debuff, even the duration could be longer. It would actually give them counterplay to thief since most people think stealth has no counter, but it wouldn’t turn the thief into a loot bag.

Yes, you can backstab when fully visible. Since the skill doesn’t depend on the stealth state you are in at the moment it lands on target but on stealth state when you start the skill. It won’t get the benefit of hidden killer trait tho. You can try it yourself, it has 0.25s casting time so if you hit 1 just as the stealth is about to finish, you can see your character land backstab when visible.

And no, you can’t do you double backstabs :P

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

If anet would actually make a new debuff that only removes invsibility and leaves all stealth benefits, I think all classes could have access to skills that give that debuff, even the duration could be longer.

I swear, I make you guys create a thief so you’ll understand how “revealed” works
Currently all skills that “make a thief visible” reveal them automatically. If a thief is revealed he can’t stealth again for that time, so you can’t increase the duration of a visible thief alone as if he’s only visible, but not revealed, he can stealth right away.

Edit:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

It would actually give them counterplay to thief since most people think stealth has no counter, but it wouldn’t turn the thief into a loot bag.

Well, then most people need to learn how to play

Yes, you can backstab when fully visible. Since the skill doesn’t depend on the stealth state you are in at the moment it lands on target but on stealth state when you start the skill. It won’t get the benefit of hidden killer trait tho. You can try it yourself, it has 0.25s casting time so if you hit 1 just as the stealth is about to finish, you can see your character land backstab when visible.

And no, you can’t do you double backstabs :P

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab

Even if it’s 0,25 s you don’t know when you’ll be revealed, so you can’t backstab without stealth.

My good advise: roll a thief.

Edit²: Just saw your signature “Thief (main)” oké So either we’ve got a language barrier or I don’t know.

(edited by Jana.6831)

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Posted by: Kicker.8203

Kicker.8203

This shouldn’t affect shadow refuge because the refuge is risky enough already to be in, you can be easily cleaved, eviscerated etc.

For other stealths this could be fun to play against. Although it wouldn’t change much because engis can already spam their skills around them, in which you wouldn’t stand as a thief anyway. people usually teleport in with backstab or shadow shot from the distance. Still it would add some play to it

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Posted by: goldenwing.9654

goldenwing.9654

The mesmer whines are getting old.

1v1 Thief vs Mesmer was not a hard counter. Only in team play when thief focuses mesmer was it a counter.

The actual counter was never as hard as guardian vs thief or now engi vs thief.

Hahaha, you serious? Teef has always been the Mesmer hard counter provided they’re not condi, and even then it’s nothing major.

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Posted by: apocom.3172

apocom.3172

Streamlined Kits are back to normal:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/RIP-perma-swiftness/page/2#post5169529

Pretty sure Lock On will be the new meta…..

With my engi I wouldn’t touch this trait. Giving up perma swiftness because engi has a hard time against thieves?

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Posted by: Kury.8210

Kury.8210

Completely random thought, but supposing elite spec provides some sort of counter play? For example… the new weapon offering either strong mobility (don’t see because shortbow) or distance. Guess it would just be another option along with other non stealth builds….

What if new trait line has an option to effect reveal duration?

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Posted by: Jayden Ennok.3687

Jayden Ennok.3687

So either we’ve got a language barrier or I don’t know.

Seems to me that the disagreement comes from you thinking I talk about current reveal and its mechanics, while I suggested a new effect.

The backstab timing, you know when your stealth finishes so you can time your backstab to stab when visible. Ofc it’s impractical and pretty hard to do in actual combat, but it’s still possible. This wasn’t supposed to be a suggestion to countering reveal but a mere technical info about backstab/stealth.

Underworld Vabbi 1.5yr

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

Seems to me that the disagreement comes from you thinking I talk about current reveal and its mechanics, while I suggested a new effect.

There can’t be – either the thief is disabeled (revealed) or he isn’t (he can stealth) – there is nothing in between.

The backstab timing, you know when your stealth finishes so you can time your backstab to stab when visible. Ofc it’s impractical and pretty hard to do in actual combat, but it’s still possible. This wasn’t supposed to be a suggestion to countering reveal but a mere technical info about backstab/stealth.

Yeah.. a good advise! Given that you don’t have lag and you don’t mind that you miss out on the 100% crit chance from hidden killer

Let’s just call it a day, ok?!

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Posted by: Kageseigi.2150

Kageseigi.2150

There can’t be – either the thief is disabeled (revealed) or he isn’t (he can stealth) – there is nothing in between.

I think that’s what he is suggesting… for Anet to create something in between.

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Posted by: Maugetarr.6823

Maugetarr.6823

Streamlined Kits are back to normal:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/RIP-perma-swiftness/page/2#post5169529

Pretty sure Lock On will be the new meta…..

With my engi I wouldn’t touch this trait. Giving up perma swiftness because engi has a hard time against thieves?

I mean you could have a static discharge thief hunter now that could be fun with shaped charge, glass cannon, kinetic charge, goggles, and rifle turret. 20 vuln, 2 quick shots from surprise shot, the static discharges from the 2 surprise shots and the analyze. Might pull my engi out of mothballs for that.

Blank Players [BDL]-Anvil Rock
Maugen Rawr- Thief/Ele
Rebalance Ideas for Thief

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Posted by: Eodwen.2613

Eodwen.2613

I rememver when sic em wad announced and I did say that was only the beginning. People said in response ranger won’t pick it and that its useless and that it’s not that bad blah blah stealrh trap blah blah etc. Well there you have it. The only upside is engis will probably pick speedy kits since the perma swiftness is back. But dragonhunter is coming…

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

I rememver when sic em wad announced and I did say that was only the beginning. People said in response ranger won’t pick it and that its useless and that it’s not that bad blah blah stealrh trap blah blah etc. Well there you have it. The only upside is engis will probably pick speedy kits since the perma swiftness is back. But dragonhunter is coming…

revealed from dragonhunter is at least avoidable and they have to drop something very useful for it

lock on activates on any fart engi makes + healing kit got buffed up the roof so speedy kits is not even mandatory

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

(edited by Cynz.9437)

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

I rememver when sic em wad announced and I did say that was only the beginning. People said in response ranger won’t pick it and that its useless and that it’s not that bad blah blah stealrh trap blah blah etc. Well there you have it. The only upside is engis will probably pick speedy kits since the perma swiftness is back. But dragonhunter is coming…

revealed from dragonhunter is at least avoidable and they have to drop something for it

lock on activates on any fart engi makes + healing kit got buffed up the roof so speedy kits is not even mandatory

That’s the issue imo an on hit reveal given to an all out AoE profession engi is the only class I like seeing stacked on my team and hate on other team usually no matter what spec. At least Sic’ Em you have to cast and ranger differs from engi massively the guard trap has a cast time and I can get out of it so it requires thinking from the guard same would go for ranger.

Engi will just follow normal rotation just like with IP.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

I rememver when sic em wad announced and I did say that was only the beginning. People said in response ranger won’t pick it and that its useless and that it’s not that bad blah blah stealrh trap blah blah etc. Well there you have it. The only upside is engis will probably pick speedy kits since the perma swiftness is back. But dragonhunter is coming…

revealed from dragonhunter is at least avoidable and they have to drop something for it

lock on activates on any fart engi makes + healing kit got buffed up the roof so speedy kits is not even mandatory

That’s the issue imo an on hit reveal given to an all out AoE profession engi is the only class I like seeing stacked on my team and hate on other team usually no matter what spec. At least Sic’ Em you have to cast and ranger differs from engi massively the guard trap has a cast time and I can get out of it so it requires thinking from the guard same would go for ranger.

Engi will just follow normal rotation just like with IP.

pretty much this

i am ok with stealth counters as long as they require some thinking and are given to profs that could use them

engi is like last prof besides guard that need revealing debuff though…. but it seems like anet would rather encourage hard counters than actually try to balance game

All is Vain~
[Teef] guild :>

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Posted by: Eodwen.2613

Eodwen.2613

I am on your side guys. What I meant was do expect even more of this to come.
However many engis do say its a hard choice for them.

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Posted by: Jana.6831

Jana.6831

There can’t be – either the thief is disabeled (revealed) or he isn’t (he can stealth) – there is nothing in between.

I think that’s what he is suggesting… for Anet to create something in between.

Ok, then do me a favour and theorycraft how that will work. The regen for 6 seconds is ~2k heal, the condi remove would be what’s most important for that time. And the backstab.

Make a scenario how sparkle would work out – for both sides.
I’m still pretty convinced it wouldn’t work, but maybe it would, so bring it on =)

The only thing I think would be acceptable would be if the thief is discovered but not revealed.

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Posted by: Omri.8196

Omri.8196

There is a way to make this fair without having to change so much. Just make shadow refuge give you immunity to revealing spells just for the duration while it’s up.

I don’t disagree with giving other classes some measures to counter stealth. Just makes the fight more interesting in my opinion.

Xiloquin – [ 80 Thief ]

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Posted by: Lunacy Solacio.6514

Lunacy Solacio.6514

If they want a reveal when a traited engi wants to smack near them, fine, could even argue the smoke would help identify you when up close etc. But grenades will still go 900 range… Can’t dodge them all. Really randomly attacking at range shouldn’t reveal, though. Dropping a supply crate on sr is easily dodged, IF you see the engi in time, and now also have to watch out for mortar (would the #2-4 mortar fields cause direct damage and therefore count as ‘striking’? and then of course there is F5 on mortar and supply crate…). And I guess we’ll know for sure patch day but turrets hitting you would probably reveal too, so even dodging supply crate you are still likely to be ‘accidentally’ hit and revealed I’d think.

Even if you don’t rely on being in stealth constantly the way d/p typically is, being revealed out of your stealth (for 6s?) will be as annoying as, or likely worse than, being hit by a ranger at 1800+ range.

(edited by Lunacy Solacio.6514)

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Posted by: Warkind.6745

Warkind.6745

And in return us thieves get a trait that breaks blocks and stacks vulnerability on hitting a blocking enemy, right?

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Posted by: Kageseigi.2150

Kageseigi.2150

And in return us thieves get a trait that breaks blocks and stacks vulnerability on hitting a blocking enemy, right?

I actually like that idea! Why can’t thieves trait for unblockable attacks?

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Posted by: Warkind.6745

Warkind.6745

Our new elite specialization. “Guardian Hunter”. Gahaha. I’m going to cry now.

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Posted by: Jesiah.2457

Jesiah.2457

Would the lock on trait not be so atrocious if it were just 3 seconds of reveal + 10 vulnerability on a 30 second ICD?

Just curious what others would think of something like that, rather than an extremely easy cheese mode 6 second reveal with 10 vulnerability stacks on a 20 second ICD. That by itself is literally easy mode vs any stealth class as it is IMO, especially considering they could also force more reveal duration on you during that.

I keep seeing people crying for counter play to stealth on threads, but this isn’t counter play. There is no counter play to something you cannot counter which =/= counter play. If you get hit by the massive amount of endless spam engineers have, it doesn’t matter how much you dodge / avoid damage, one little mistake in that huge aoe spam fest and lolrevealed.

And in a burst thieves case, this is like gauranteed death if you don’t run away immediately and likely blow CD’s to escape. Just to come back and have a very short window to then fight with no CD’s available before you get auto revealed again. Not to mention, this is like a guaranteed hard counter to shadow refuge which is already easy to counter with endless aoe spam.

Even on a 30 second ICD with 3 second reveal, this would seriously be very strong against stealth / especially thieves, IMO. Leaving it at 6 seconds base is just … Anet level of “Esports” IMO.