Guild Wars 2

Forum bug does what forum bug does.

Cynz.9437:

She wants shadowshot to get nerfed. I do not see how it is justified given thief state in pvp right now (and even after patch). Her idea of destroying thief completely for the sake of eventual rework (that will probably never come) is also silly because by the time devs actually come up with something and implement it, a lot of time would pass and most remaining thief players would quit this game.

The only thing that could be nerfed on shadowshot is the damage. The argument could (and has) been made that the damage is too high for the utility. That said, it’s not dominating other classes. It has a 1.31 multiplier which is somewhere between a mid and high level heartserker. This could be brought down to a 1.1 or 1.2 making it roughly equivalent to (current) dagger autoattack DPS.

Due to the large amount of AoE and blocks, I would also recommend removing the directionality of Tactical Strike and Backstab and rename backstab to Unsuspecting Strike, but that’s a topic for a different day.

Maugetarr.6823:

Cynz.9437:

She wants shadowshot to get nerfed. I do not see how it is justified given thief state in pvp right now (and even after patch). Her idea of destroying thief completely for the sake of eventual rework (that will probably never come) is also silly because by the time devs actually come up with something and implement it, a lot of time would pass and most remaining thief players would quit this game.

The only thing that could be nerfed on shadowshot is the damage. The argument could (and has) been made that the damage is too high for the utility. That said, it’s not dominating other classes. It has a 1.31 multiplier which is somewhere between a mid and high level heartserker. This could be brought down to a 1.1 or 1.2 making it roughly equivalent to (current) dagger autoattack DPS.

Due to the large amount of AoE and blocks, I would also recommend removing the directionality of Tactical Strike and Backstab and rename backstab to Unsuspecting Strike, but that’s a topic for a different day.

1. skill on DP and PD do the same damage tho….

I’ve actually gotten power bursted to down from sneak attack>shadow atrike>steal>shadow strike.

Azukas.1426:

Maugetarr.6823:

Cynz.9437:

She wants shadowshot to get nerfed. I do not see how it is justified given thief state in pvp right now (and even after patch). Her idea of destroying thief completely for the sake of eventual rework (that will probably never come) is also silly because by the time devs actually come up with something and implement it, a lot of time would pass and most remaining thief players would quit this game.

The only thing that could be nerfed on shadowshot is the damage. The argument could (and has) been made that the damage is too high for the utility. That said, it’s not dominating other classes. It has a 1.31 multiplier which is somewhere between a mid and high level heartserker. This could be brought down to a 1.1 or 1.2 making it roughly equivalent to (current) dagger autoattack DPS.

Due to the large amount of AoE and blocks, I would also recommend removing the directionality of Tactical Strike and Backstab and rename backstab to Unsuspecting Strike, but that’s a topic for a different day.

1. skill on DP and PD do the same damage tho….

I’ve actually gotten power bursted to down from sneak attack>shadow atrike>steal>shadow strike.

True, but the difference is that it takes utilities to repeat shadowstrike repeatedly as it ports you away whereas shadowshot ports you to them.

Maugetarr.6823:

Azukas.1426:

Maugetarr.6823:

Cynz.9437:

She wants shadowshot to get nerfed. I do not see how it is justified given thief state in pvp right now (and even after patch). Her idea of destroying thief completely for the sake of eventual rework (that will probably never come) is also silly because by the time devs actually come up with something and implement it, a lot of time would pass and most remaining thief players would quit this game.

The only thing that could be nerfed on shadowshot is the damage. The argument could (and has) been made that the damage is too high for the utility. That said, it’s not dominating other classes. It has a 1.31 multiplier which is somewhere between a mid and high level heartserker. This could be brought down to a 1.1 or 1.2 making it roughly equivalent to (current) dagger autoattack DPS.

Due to the large amount of AoE and blocks, I would also recommend removing the directionality of Tactical Strike and Backstab and rename backstab to Unsuspecting Strike, but that’s a topic for a different day.

1. skill on DP and PD do the same damage tho….

I’ve actually gotten power bursted to down from sneak attack>shadow atrike>steal>shadow strike.

True, but the difference is that it takes utilities to repeat shadowstrike repeatedly as it ports you away whereas shadowshot ports you to them.

DP needs to be close whereas PD needs distance. Both work towards the sets goals doing the same damage.

Either way neither skill needs a nerf in anyway shape or form

From my thread

Kicker.8203:

• Death Blossom: evade is now 1/2 and it’s a spamm skill for condi builds. It has to scale more with power. To prevent spamming it and add more play, it should switch -if any of the attacks hit- into a second skill(I don’t insist on a certain skill but to give you an idea:)
  Marked for Death: Death Blossom marks the foe first hit similarly to how Shadow Trap does.
  —Marked for Death(3 initiative): You can teleport to and knockdown your foe as soon as he is at least 900 range away from you. (if you can’t catch up you can just run in the other direction, fun counterplay)
  If the teleport is not used in the following 6 seconds or so, the skill would reset back to Death Blossom.
  The point is adding a flipping skill to prevent evade spamming without adding CD.
  —Why teleport? D/D has no mobility.
• Cloak and Dagger: this skill is very difficult to hit opposed to the smoke field+heartseeker combo. Using it puts you at risk as a thief so it should either reward a successful hit with a bit longer stealth duration or blind application.
  bug: Steal with Mug+ CnD often causes self-reveal.(teleport+CnD happens before mug damage)

Sword and Pistol do need buffs too as I mentioned in my post.

Maugetarr.6823:

The only thing that could be nerfed on shadowshot is the damage. The argument could (and has) been made that the damage is too high for the utility.

Which is the exact thing I said initially and is also the premise for this thread as well.

Again, people will hold onto their spammy play which trivializes the rest of the class in whatever way they can, justifying it as being the only way to be competitive, when in all reality this competitive nature is the result of what are skills which objectively over-perform.

Balancing at peak performance is important; otherwise you would be able to justify buffing elementalist’s durability because on anything other than D/D cele it does not sustain well at all. The same notion is applicable to this thread in that one particular facet of the class is arguably holding back the rest from being bumped upwards. The elementalist’s viability is going to crash with the removal of the celestial amulet, but the whole profession will be able to be buffed into the future and balanced better from a design perspective. The thief, as well as many other classes, is in the same predicament.

People are too self-obsessed with being “competitive” to realize that such attitude is what is trivializing the game’s balance decisions and is what leads to balance inequities to existing for extended periods of time to begin with.

Not that I think D/P is overpowered, but if it were, I’d see more posts about how you can get a backstab by shooting shadow shot while stealthed and mashing 1.

Shadow Shot over shadow strikealso has that blind and is unblockable. Great chase down skill. Someone near death and running this kills more often than not.

Guys! it’s obvious that Jana is trolling, do not reply. Just shake your head in disbelief and leave! Others have proven he/she is wrong about it needing a nerf and he/she has ignored it. Don’t feed the troll.

spartan – are you feeding the “troll”?

Btw: If you have any arguments as to why I am a troll and completely wrong with what I’ve written, bring them – so far I’ve read few – most was personal attacks.

ETA: Right, you’re still the guy who’s eager to know if I’m hot – that’s definitively a reason to bump this thread (no pun intended)-

babazhook.6805:

Shadow Shot over shadow strikealso has that blind and is unblockable. Great chase down skill. Someone near death and running this kills more often than not.

only teleport part is unblockable

Cynz.9437:

babazhook.6805:

Shadow Shot over shadow strikealso has that blind and is unblockable. Great chase down skill. Someone near death and running this kills more often than not.

only teleport part is unblockable

Cynz is right which is wrong usage of shadow shot eventually make yourself killed

Cynz.9437:

babazhook.6805:

Shadow Shot over shadow strikealso has that blind and is unblockable. Great chase down skill. Someone near death and running this kills more often than not.

only teleport part is unblockable

Sorry my bad I was referring to the projectile and blind both of which are unblockable. I should have been clearer. I would point out that with BV traited after tuesday that damage portion will become unblockable.

Gibimo.2193:

Cynz.9437:

babazhook.6805:

Shadow Shot over shadow strikealso has that blind and is unblockable. Great chase down skill. Someone near death and running this kills more often than not.

only teleport part is unblockable

Cynz is right which is wrong usage of shadow shot eventually make yourself killed

I said this kills a fleeing enemy more often than not and such has been my experience. I have rarely died because of it.

babazhook.6805:

Gibimo.2193:

Cynz.9437:

babazhook.6805:

Shadow Shot over shadow strikealso has that blind and is unblockable. Great chase down skill. Someone near death and running this kills more often than not.

only teleport part is unblockable

Cynz is right which is wrong usage of shadow shot eventually make yourself killed

I said this kills a fleeing enemy more often than not and such has been my experience. I have rarely died because of it.

You won’t take that lot of time to chase down the bunker unless they all run out of cooldowns and heals. Simply its waste of time and efforts if you facing good players.
They will try to bait you and shooted by shadow shot and dodge to avoid damage.
And you’ll see you have a mark on your head and other zerkers coming to kill you.
And the last point you should remember is good zerkers will never stay alone.
so you can’t have that much offertunity in fair match ups with good players

Gibimo.2193:

babazhook.6805:

Gibimo.2193:

Cynz.9437:

babazhook.6805:

Shadow Shot over shadow strikealso has that blind and is unblockable. Great chase down skill. Someone near death and running this kills more often than not.

only teleport part is unblockable

Cynz is right which is wrong usage of shadow shot eventually make yourself killed

I said this kills a fleeing enemy more often than not and such has been my experience. I have rarely died because of it.

You won’t take that lot of time to chase down the bunker unless they all run out of cooldowns and heals. Simply its waste of time and efforts if you facing good players.
They will try to bait you and shooted by shadow shot and dodge to avoid damage.
And you’ll see you have a mark on your head and other zerkers coming to kill you.
And the last point you should remember is good zerkers will never stay alone.
so you can’t have that much offertunity in fair match ups with good players

Not my experience. I am talking wvW. I have been there for years. People run and they tend to scatter. Pick a target and kill him. Generally these guys are running because they used all their heals . When those other zerkers show you have your utilities/skills to stealth.

There are also those that will run away in a group. You do not chase those. It really not hard to see the field of battle and see which peoples remain disciplined and retreat in order and which just break down and scatter. I am also well aware of the thieves that will linger on the edges of battle hoping to jump someone pursuing another.

That said I have also ported right into a clump of enemy to down someone blind and got out. If you move fast you can get in and out. Just do not do such a thing when they surrounded by AOE rings.

Oh and I do not play zerker . I can take hits and still hit hard. Interrupts with PI traited are devastating . Daredevil runes with Sigils of intel work wonders. The saving on precision can be invested in a little more vitality/toughness. This will become even better post patch with harder hitting AA.

…and THIS^^ is why Jana and you are wrong. You talk from wvw view. Game is not balanced around wvw and never will be (besides some absurd exploits and such). Don’t want to offend anyone but it is fact that majority of players wvw wouldn’t last a second in pvp vs half decent opponents. It is ridicilously wrong trying to balance spells around killing rather unskilled unexperienced players from wvw.

In wvw you can also get away extremely easily since killing thief is not main objective of this game mode nor you have to hold any points solo. PvP on other hand is all about teamplay, holding points and focused killing of the enemy. Thief is usually Nr. 1 target for any organized team. Wasting ini in such games gets you killed really fast there.

Don’t believe me? Go do some tournaments.

Cynz.9437:

…and THIS^^ is why Jana and you are wrong. You talk from wvw view. Game is not balanced around wvw and never will be (besides some absurd exploits and such).

This is where you’re wrong.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Balance itself is an iterative process and our work will be ongoing. We’re taking a hard look at the ways players are experiencing content across the game (raids, fractals, open world, PvP, and WvW) and we’ll be making adjustments accordingly.

Don’t want to offend anyone but it is fact that majority of players wvw wouldn’t last a second in pvp vs half decent opponents. It is ridicilously wrong trying to balance spells around killing rather unskilled unexperienced players from wvw.

I think the opposite is actually what’s happening. A PvP player is the inexperienced players in WvW who get stomped within a second because they have no idea what they’re doing and not aware that the big boulder falling on their head will one shot them. Also these are the inexperienced players who stands on fire, volley of arrows, and poisoned cow carcasses. PvP players simply have no idea on how WvW works.

However, WvW players are more experienced when it comes to PvP because not only they have to think about 5 enemy players, they also have to think about the whole zerg, so 5 enemies are nothing compare to zerg.

But who knows who’s right or wrong? In my experience, PvP players are bad WvW players.

Thank you, Sir Vincent – and Cynz: It’s enough – bring arguments as to why I’m wrong and don’t attack the game mode you know I’m playing – no matter whether or not anet cares for it – it’s still there.

ETA: Before June I used to pvp sometimes with my friends – well anet brought an higher “evade without evades” frame into the game last february – it’s really hard to hit anyone since then. Since most people use gap closers or aoe anyway most people probably didn’t notice – I doubt it is just me. So it might have been before that when we were in ranked and I held 4 <—!! on one point for 5 minutes – as a scrubby wvw solo roamer D/D thief. Don’t try that in wvw. (Although I did that there too – solo against 6 – wasn’t able to stomp them and they came running back but I kept them occupied for 15 mins and they were unable to cap my camp)-

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

…and THIS^^ is why Jana and you are wrong. You talk from wvw view. Game is not balanced around wvw and never will be (besides some absurd exploits and such).

This is where you’re wrong.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Balance itself is an iterative process and our work will be ongoing. We’re taking a hard look at the ways players are experiencing content across the game (raids, fractals, open world, PvP, and WvW) and we’ll be making adjustments accordingly.

Don’t want to offend anyone but it is fact that majority of players wvw wouldn’t last a second in pvp vs half decent opponents. It is ridicilously wrong trying to balance spells around killing rather unskilled unexperienced players from wvw.

I think the opposite is actually what’s happening. A PvP player is the inexperienced players in WvW who get stomped within a second because they have no idea what they’re doing and not aware that the big boulder falling on their head will one shot them. Also these are the inexperienced players who stands on fire, volley of arrows, and poisoned cow carcasses. PvP players simply have no idea on how WvW works.

However, WvW players are more experienced when it comes to PvP because not only they have to think about 5 enemy players, they also have to think about the whole zerg, so 5 enemies are nothing compare to zerg.

But who knows who’s right or wrong? In my experience, PvP players are bad WvW players.

.. and i had opposite experience. I used to be wvw player, i joined really good roaming guild back then and one of their rule was to practice in pvp weekly to improve our skill level. They really got me into pvp and i did become much better player thanks to pvp and had much easier times kill people in wvw.

Surely, a pvp player that came to wvw for the first time would be surprised by all the food buffs and cheese crap people run there but it would take 1 death for a decent one to figure out what he is fighting.

Jana.6831:

Thank you, Sir Vincent – and Cynz: It’s enough – bring arguments as to why I’m wrong and don’t attack the game mode you know I’m playing – no matter whether or not anet cares for it – it’s still there.

ETA: Before June I used to pvp sometimes with my friends – well anet brought an higher “evade without evades” frame into the game last february – it’s really hard to hit anyone since then. Since most people use gap closers or aoe anyway most people probably didn’t notice – I doubt it is just me. So it might have been before that when we were in ranked and I held 4 <—!! on one point for 5 minutes – as a scrubby wvw solo roamer D/D thief. Don’t try that in wvw. (Although I did that there too – solo against 6 – wasn’t able to stomp them and they came running back but I kept them occupied for 15 mins and they were unable to cap my camp)-

go play vs esl teams or anything decent that isn’t exactly HJ hero

The food buffs don’t matter that much – the only importnat thing is that you have any food.
The cheese crap is more a pvp thing – we really can go offtopic and discuss how 1337 you are and how crappy wvw is – or we can bring arguments?

Cynz.9437:

go play vs esl teams

Go play wvw – besides if I were into cheesy mode D/P thief it wouldn’t be any problem, I guess – but I don’t like that weaponset.

ETA. But that isn’t the issue here – the issue is that we have no build diversity and I blame D/P for it – probably also staff but that remains to be seen.

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

go play vs esl teams

Go play wvw – besides if I were into cheesy mode D/P thief it wouldn’t be any problem, I guess – but I don’t like that weaponset.

i did….

hahaha “cheesy mode dp”, never actually played vs good teams and calls dp cheesy… oh my sides~

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

go play vs esl teams

Go play wvw – besides if I were into cheesy mode D/P thief it wouldn’t be any problem, I guess – but I don’t like that weaponset.

i did….

hahah cheesy mode dp, never actually played vs good teams and calls dp cheesy… new low reached~

haha, never really played wvw but calls wvw builds which have a ten times more diversity than pvp cheese haha.
How old are you? 12?

ETA:
And by your argument: This means not everybody in pvp is good, but I have to be really into it to be matched up against top teams – alright. Then go play vs someone from the top wvw guilds – in fact you did and lost – my buddy is in the top wvw guild.

We can go back to topic if you like though – or just let this thread be as everything that had to be said has been said. Plus a lot of personal attacks – thanks for that, guys.

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

go play vs esl teams

Go play wvw – besides if I were into cheesy mode D/P thief it wouldn’t be any problem, I guess – but I don’t like that weaponset.

i did….

hahah cheesy mode dp, never actually played vs good teams and calls dp cheesy… new low reached~

haha, never really played wvw but calls wvw builds which have a ten times more diversity than pvp cheese haha.
How old are you? 12?

I used to spent my entire play time in wvw, at some point i simply realized that pvp is more fun and more skill based, that is it. Cheese has nothing to do with diversity. You just have builds there that rely on gimmicks, gear disparity, broken runes/sigils, food, buffs that you won’t find anywhere in pvp, hiding behind zerg, cnd off NPCs and critters, spamming killshot from tower etc.

You actually know very well how old i am.

Oh and sure let’s judge entire pvp community by one duel i had (which i did say i didn’t want to participate in because of infamous german lag). Still doesn’t change the fact you didn’t play vs good teams, you didn’t play in tourneys, you don’t know how it is to play “cheesy” dp vs good opponents and not some uplv spamming 1. You have no right to judge the set, period.

I don’t know how old you are and I don’t care – I just despise the way you behave right now. I managed to ignore the first post that was in this manner but you couldn’t let go – so that was when it was enough.

I have no idea on which server you have been, when you have been there and what has changed since then, and in fact I don’t care as my mission isn’t to put a game mode down but that we all can have fun in whatever mode we have chosen – and D/P is holding thief back – that’s my opinion and I actually think I’m right. You guys hadn’t really any arguments against it.

Btw: I’m a solo roamer – before february last year (evades without evades) my win ratio against any class and any build was ~95% – after february ~70% (thieves against who I never had a problem were non defeatable for me – maybe because they all were D/P – can’t remember). Win ratio now is dismissable as there’s no solo roamers around anyway since the overall damage every class puts out is just too high. I’m great as a +1 though. I also run with zergs, mostly frontline as I’m really impatient – the class imbalance made zerg fights pretty tough and RNG (but by your arguments we don’t deserve balance anyway – so be it).

Actually you didn’t bring any good arguments why dp is holding thief back. It is just your assumptions. I can say however for fact what i heard from devs from their stream that they think thief is strong due to mobility. Frankly by that logic sb5, shadowstep, inf signet, sword 2, heartseeker etc. should be nerfed to oblivion. The joke is, this class is already pretty much dead, i don’t think remaining thief community could take another 6-12 months of being absolutely useless, hated, harassed and unwanted in all 3 game modes in hopes that by some chance Anet would suddenly get enlightenment and fix this class properly. Bring me argument against it. Go for it.

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Cynz.9437:

…and THIS^^ is why Jana and you are wrong. You talk from wvw view. Game is not balanced around wvw and never will be (besides some absurd exploits and such).

This is where you’re wrong.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Balance itself is an iterative process and our work will be ongoing. We’re taking a hard look at the ways players are experiencing content across the game (raids, fractals, open world, PvP, and WvW) and we’ll be making adjustments accordingly.

Don’t want to offend anyone but it is fact that majority of players wvw wouldn’t last a second in pvp vs half decent opponents. It is ridicilously wrong trying to balance spells around killing rather unskilled unexperienced players from wvw.

I think the opposite is actually what’s happening. A PvP player is the inexperienced players in WvW who get stomped within a second because they have no idea what they’re doing and not aware that the big boulder falling on their head will one shot them. Also these are the inexperienced players who stands on fire, volley of arrows, and poisoned cow carcasses. PvP players simply have no idea on how WvW works.

However, WvW players are more experienced when it comes to PvP because not only they have to think about 5 enemy players, they also have to think about the whole zerg, so 5 enemies are nothing compare to zerg.

But who knows who’s right or wrong? In my experience, PvP players are bad WvW players.

.. and i had opposite experience. I used to be wvw player, i joined really good roaming guild back then and one of their rule was to practice in pvp weekly to improve our skill level. They really got me into pvp and i did become much better player thanks to pvp and had much easier times kill people in wvw.

So you practice in PvP as a form of WvW tutorial phase because you’re not good enough to play in WvW. Sure you became better in PvP, but WvW is more than just PvP.

Surely, a pvp player that came to wvw for the first time would be surprised by all the food buffs and cheese crap people run there but it would take 1 death for a decent one to figure out what he is fighting.

I played in WvW and never used food buffs or whatnot, and I’ve fought other players, who are quite good in their profession, who also don’t bother with food buffs. The fact is, these buffs are just a supplement just in case that your regular build is not doing the job.

Yes, 1 death from the zerg, 1 death from the boulder, 1 death from the Arrow cart, 1 death from the guards, 1 death from the cow poison,…you get the point. If the PvP player has to die from a Supply Dolyak to figure things out, then that’s just sad.

I listed that D/P has got all utilities thief can have on their weaponset while every other set has to trait for it – which has largely been destroyed with the June patch: D/P still has got all utility whereas the other sets have got no chance to get this utility. Because of D/P having all utility on its set it’s also free to chose about every traitline they like. The only thing that has been difficult for D/P has been initative managemnt – which became obsolete with the traitline merge = D/P has got no restrictions anymore. The usual D/P combo does now more damage than D/D although D/D is a melee weapon wheras D/P isn’t – you only need to SS, BS – otherwise you can stay out of AoE – D/D can’t. P/D probably as well, S/D has been killed with the Acro changes and I don’t know that set too good.
That were my arguments and I actually would see that as “good” arguments – at least good enough to argue against it and not just to use any personal information you have about me to attack me (which in this case was little).

I’ll try again: Nerf D/P the weapon set and buff Thief the traits
Do you get it now? As long as D/P will have this much utility every other set will be weak in comparison. I don’t want D/P to be weak – I just want that weaponset to be realistic and not the only option we’ve got. So, if your set is nerfed but you can get back the utility from the traits, does it really harm you that much? Or are you a good sports because with that you allow other builds to coexist?

It’s probably far too late to change it now, if ever they did.

They did try to make d/d useable by shifting the evades from end to front – the deathblossom spam fest took of from there. Ofc people who wanted to play power was left out.

As a warrior main and thief secondary, I am no stranger to the lack of Dev love our classes get.

However, I find it odd that anyone with a class in this current state would ever call for nerfs for their own class.

As an example from the Warrior forums, the Greatsword is pretty much the universal weapon for Warriors, required for Greataxe and required for Phalanx Strength (and consequently raids). It is determined that the culprit of this dominance is the trait Forceful Greatsword which is probably the best Master trait in the entire game, giving a huge damage modifier, 20% CD reduction, and Might on critical without an ICD.

However, gutting the Greatsword is not the way to go. Why would anyone want to shoot Greatsword in the foot just to make other terrible weapons look better? Why not just make the terrible weapons better? That analogy with the 3 starving children with 1 fat one… it’s more like 3 starving children cannibalizing the 1 fat one. So now you have 3 somewhat nourished but still miserable children and 1 dead one. Is the problem that the one kid was fat and got chocolate? No, it’s because the kitten parent isn’t feeding their dam kids (ANet, hello). You should be happy that one kid is actually relatively successful rather than being spiteful you don’t get chocolate.

As you are all PvPers and WvWers, you all should roughly know that Warriors are all forced into a Defense trait line while using 3 stances + 1 or 2 traited stances. Warriors complain that they’re all forced to use stances to even be good because they’re bad without them. Do we want stances nerfed into the ground? No… Do you think if ANet gutted Stances with a knife, they would somehow actually make other garbage utilities better (Keyword here: garbage utilities)? No… The thing is that there is a much more underlying problem with the warrior as a class.

So all this talk about D/P and other weapon sets is pretty odd. In my eyes, D/P is successful at what it sets out to do and has its own flaws. It’s probably the best designed and balanced set. Other weapons are either well designed and terribly balanced… or terribly designed and well balanced (or terribly designed and terribly balanced… what I thought of P/P for a while). D/P being well designed/balanced does not in any way limit the design space or balance of the other weapon sets: the problem is the other weapon sets limiting their own design space or being terribly tuned or balanced.

GenoGar.5497:

That analogy with the 3 starving children with 1 fat one… it’s more like 3 starving children cannibalizing the 1 fat one. So now you have 3 somewhat nourished but still miserable children and 1 dead one. Is the problem that the one kid was fat and got chocolate? No, it’s because the kitten parent isn’t feeding their dam kids (ANet, hello). You should be happy that one kid is actually relatively successful rather than being spiteful you don’t get chocolate.

That’s a horrible interpretation of the analogy used here.

Basically, the fat kid is standing in front of the parents blocking their view so the parent’s attention is on the fat kid, while the rest of the children are out of sight, thus the parents are not seeing that the rest of the children are malnourished.

Jana is not saying that the other kids should eat the fat kid (that’s just your sick mind talking), rather she’s saying that the fat kid needs a diet and the other children needs more food. In the end, all the children’s weight will be the ideal one. No one is eating anyone, for goodness sake.

Again with the fat kid, you fattits or something?

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Again with the fat kid, you fattits or something?

Yes, fear my MAN BOOBS…

Never thought I would open with that but whatever :P

We all know that to get something buffed in this game, something must get nerfed. So if by nerfing D/P we get the other weapon sets buffed, I can live with that.

As a side note, I don’t actually have man boobs. I know, I let you all down…

We gotta be careful with these kinds of threads guys, we don’t want to give the devs any ideas. I understand the frustration of certain weapon sets underperforming but nerfing a certain set isn’t a good idea. Let’s see what the next balance patch holds first.

I just bought 3 kilogramm cookies and chocolate – if anyone is the fat kid, it’s me. Ok, I’m not.

@GenoGar.5497:
I don’t know too much about warrior and GS for that matter, so I can’t say what would happen if one were to nerf GS.
And if you’re already talking about my botched fat kid example you also have read most of the arguments as to why I think D/P should be toned down a bit.

What does D/P have on their weaponset? stealth, CC, gap closer and blind (which other thief build have to trait for and unfortunately the devs decided that blind on stealth is that OP that they put it into GM – and then gave every other class blind on auto attack (exaggerated)).
For gap closer you either use steal or utility, S/X has a port on their weapon. For the only CC the vanilla builds have access to they have to trait in trickery – which D/P can as well = twice as many CCs for them, also x times as many gap closers, depending on their playstyle (as their weaponskills costs initative) – their stealth isn’t dependend on being close to the enemy, they can use their smokefield 3-4 times = are stealthed for way longer than any other thief – I’m not saying it’s the easy way to play GW2 but it is the easy way to play thief and unfortunately it has been way too long the only viable thief build. That is my point. It’s no use to say “Oh no, my class is bad, we can’t nerf the only viable weaponset we still have” as that won’t really change a thing. And I don’t think that buffing the other weaponsets makes that much sense – besides we have around 50% of traits which are pretty useless – a few of them could be deleted and redesigned to give utility/power back to the then nerfed D/P set.
I know that devs often get things wrong, but I hope I gave them an idea how to design thief in the future – if they break it they will break the whole class which we had for the past at least 3 months, 9 months for my weaponset. But then they will know and hopefully be a lot more careful. Breaking our whole class is a lot better than having only one set – as still having one viable build makes it seem as if the class itself were fine.

Edit: Added CiS/blind.

Lyger.5429:

We gotta be careful with these kinds of threads guys, we don’t want to give the devs any ideas. I understand the frustration of certain weapon sets underperforming but nerfing a certain set isn’t a good idea. Let’s see what the next balance patch holds first.

That’s not the point of this thread – please read again =)

Lyger.5429:

We gotta be careful with these kinds of threads guys, we don’t want to give the devs any ideas. I understand the frustration of certain weapon sets underperforming but nerfing a certain set isn’t a good idea. Let’s see what the next balance patch holds first.

Ideally yes, D/P shouldn’t get nerfed to have the others fixed, but IF a compromise HAD to happen, I could live with it.
Quite interested to see what the balance patch holds, hopefully something for P/P because I like the playstyle.

Cynz.9437:

…and THIS^^ is why Jana and you are wrong. You talk from wvw view. Game is not balanced around wvw and never will be (besides some absurd exploits and such). Don’t want to offend anyone but it is fact that majority of players wvw wouldn’t last a second in pvp vs half decent opponents. It is ridicilously wrong trying to balance spells around killing rather unskilled unexperienced players from wvw.

In wvw you can also get away extremely easily since killing thief is not main objective of this game mode nor you have to hold any points solo. PvP on other hand is all about teamplay, holding points and focused killing of the enemy. Thief is usually Nr. 1 target for any organized team. Wasting ini in such games gets you killed really fast there.

Don’t believe me? Go do some tournaments.

I really could not care less about tournaments. I made a statement which was 100 percent accurate and you did one of two things which were both your error.

You either assumed I was talking about Pvp which given the context of the entire thread I do not see how you could have done and along with that ASSumed I was making a call to nerf d\p or you presumed to dictate that Pvp opinions of the value of a given skill take precedence over all others.

Both pve and Wvw are valid gamemodes each drawing their adherents and as such people are allowed to voice their opinions on such without the rebuttal that because a given statement does not apply to Pvp than said statement is wrong.
B

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

go play vs esl teams

Go play wvw – besides if I were into cheesy mode D/P thief it wouldn’t be any problem, I guess – but I don’t like that weaponset.

i did….

hahah cheesy mode dp, never actually played vs good teams and calls dp cheesy… new low reached~

haha, never really played wvw but calls wvw builds which have a ten times more diversity than pvp cheese haha.
How old are you? 12?

I used to spent my entire play time in wvw, at some point i simply realized that pvp is more fun and more skill based, that is it. Cheese has nothing to do with diversity. You just have builds there that rely on gimmicks, gear disparity, broken runes/sigils, food, buffs that you won’t find anywhere in pvp, hiding behind zerg, cnd off NPCs and critters, spamming killshot from tower etc.

You actually know very well how old i am.

Oh and sure let’s judge entire pvp community by one duel i had (which i did say i didn’t want to participate in because of infamous german lag). Still doesn’t change the fact you didn’t play vs good teams, you didn’t play in tourneys, you don’t know how it is to play “cheesy” dp vs good opponents and not some uplv spamming 1. You have no right to judge the set, period.

Pvp is not more skill based.

Skill is a composite of many things. One of course is physical with reaction times to given data received along with hand to eye coordination.

It obvious to everyone however that this hardly the main element or the persons with fastest reflexes would always win no matter the profession they played or the gear they used.

Skill also requires a good amount of knowledge about skills and traits , the nature of each and how they interact with other skills. This includes not only ones own skills and traits but those of the enemies one will encounter.

Another element of skill is experience. The more one plays the better one gets. The more one becomes familiar with the tendencies of other players either as an individual or as a class the better one gets.

None of these elements are exclusive to Pvp.

Now in Pvp there are restrictions on the types of gear one can use , be it sigils trinkets foods or runes. As such a given player in Pvp has less variants of builds to deal with so they can hone very specific skills to deal with such.

In Wvw there far greater a variety of builds so a skilled player( see experience,) has to learn to deal with a greater variety of skills. There more data to process at any given time and more varied reactions that must be used.

It akin to the game of golf wherein a player has a bagful of clubs. On any given golf course one can have bunkers or dog legs, one can have elevated greens or greens of various levels. One can have water hazards or holes that are 550 yards long while others are 200 where the shorter hole generally bogied due to surrounding terrain while eagles are common on the former.

Those in charge suddenly decide they want to take out as many variables as possible because they favor the long strike and the 360 yard shot of the tee.

They then mandate all holes be made longer and straighter and that hazards be removed and greens remain large and flat.

This would favor the long ball hitter over the person good at the short game and ball placement. The players that are better at the long ball would certainly rise to the top but this hardly means they more skilled at the game of golf.

Pvp limits variables to favor specific styles of gameplay and as such very specific skills. The endgame of Pvp is only a handful of builds and styles make the meta and only a small amount of available gear ever used. You then get entire professions not playing because a given meta does not allow that profession to do well no matter the skill.

The so called skill is very specific and suits very specific skills which some find desirable. So to be accurate you can say " The types of skills I prefer are more heavily weighted than those in Wvw" but given the meaning of the word skill which can comprise many things it not accurate to say “Pvp players are more skilled”

Azukas.1426:

Jana.6831:

Azukas.1426:

Commenting as a neutral 3rd party (mesmer here)

DP thieves are easily countered by 2 very basic game mechanics.

1. Dodge
2. Interrupt HS

Now that that’s out of the way I agree with promoting balance for the good of the game even if you call for your own class to be nerfed. Read my nerf Mesmer posts.

But DP is NOT in any way or shape OP. This thread is nothing but self serving self proclaimed elitists trying to enforce thier style of play on everyone else. You know this same exact type of thread popped up years ago and ultimately lead to BP nerf? One could even argue that these DD thieves inadvertently paved the path to the state in which thief now resides.

So if something is broken def call for balance…not this embarrassment of a thread though.

Well, then try thief for a bit – in PvE is enough and try the different weaponsets. Read the tooltips and learn the different playstyles and find that D/P is OP in comparison of every other thief build (without DrD/staff) right now.
And please read what I wrote again to get my point and don’t accuse me of being an elitist.

I don’t need to try thief b/c I’m a neutral 3rd party.

Tell you one thing tho. Ive never seen dp in meta pve or raids now.

Now here’s a history lesson for you. Since you WvW a lot which weaponset originally supplanted DD?

D/D was supplanted by S/D for a brief period of time long after launch once people learned to dodge CnD. Then D/P reigned as meta forever more. History complete.

babazhook.6805:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

go play vs esl teams

Go play wvw – besides if I were into cheesy mode D/P thief it wouldn’t be any problem, I guess – but I don’t like that weaponset.

i did….

hahah cheesy mode dp, never actually played vs good teams and calls dp cheesy… new low reached~

haha, never really played wvw but calls wvw builds which have a ten times more diversity than pvp cheese haha.
How old are you? 12?

I used to spent my entire play time in wvw, at some point i simply realized that pvp is more fun and more skill based, that is it. Cheese has nothing to do with diversity. You just have builds there that rely on gimmicks, gear disparity, broken runes/sigils, food, buffs that you won’t find anywhere in pvp, hiding behind zerg, cnd off NPCs and critters, spamming killshot from tower etc.

You actually know very well how old i am.

Oh and sure let’s judge entire pvp community by one duel i had (which i did say i didn’t want to participate in because of infamous german lag). Still doesn’t change the fact you didn’t play vs good teams, you didn’t play in tourneys, you don’t know how it is to play “cheesy” dp vs good opponents and not some uplv spamming 1. You have no right to judge the set, period.

Pvp is not more skill based.

Skill is a composite of many things. One of course is physical with reaction times to given data received along with hand to eye coordination.

It obvious to everyone however that this hardly the main element or the persons with fastest reflexes would always win no matter the profession they played or the gear they used.

Skill also requires a good amount of knowledge about skills and traits , the nature of each and how they interact with other skills. This includes not only ones own skills and traits but those of the enemies one will encounter.

Another element of skill is experience. The more one plays the better one gets. The more one becomes familiar with the tendencies of other players either as an individual or as a class the better one gets.

None of these elements are exclusive to Pvp.

Now in Pvp there are restrictions on the types of gear one can use , be it sigils trinkets foods or runes. As such a given player in Pvp has less variants of builds to deal with so they can hone very specific skills to deal with such.

In Wvw there far greater a variety of builds so a skilled player( see experience,) has to learn to deal with a greater variety of skills. There more data to process at any given time and more varied reactions that must be used.

It akin to the game of golf wherein a player has a bagful of clubs. On any given golf course one can have bunkers or dog legs, one can have elevated greens or greens of various levels. One can have water hazards or holes that are 550 yards long while others are 200 where the shorter hole generally bogied due to surrounding terrain while eagles are common on the former.

Those in charge suddenly decide they want to take out as many variables as possible because they favor the long strike and the 360 yard shot of the tee.

They then mandate all holes be made longer and straighter and that hazards be removed and greens remain large and flat.

This would favor the long ball hitter over the person good at the short game and ball placement. The players that are better at the long ball would certainly rise to the top but this hardly means they more skilled at the game of golf.

Pvp limits variables to favor specific styles of gameplay and as such very specific skills. The endgame of Pvp is only a handful of builds and styles make the meta and only a small amount of available gear ever used. You then get entire professions not playing because a given meta does not allow that profession to do well no matter the skill.

The so called skill is very specific and suits very specific skills which some find desirable. So to be accurate you can say " The types of skills I prefer are more heavily weighted than those in Wvw" but given the meaning of the word skill which can comprise many things it not accurate to say “Pvp players are more skilled”

The main skill in this game is not reaction, it’s not trait knowledge, it’s not even minmaxing math. It’s adaptation. The ability to quickly see all the possible directions your fight can take and as soon as it starts taking that path to react to what the situation is about to be, not to what it is at the moment and to use every advantage in terrain etc in order to make the fight take the course you want. This is, to a lesser extent, possible in pve but it is so static that there is no adaptation required in your fight manipulation.

And if you want to prove pvp players aren’t more skilled why did my pug yoloque team beat a full DnT guild team who were in voice coms? Obviously they were not able to adapt to the situation they were in properly, unlike pvp players. In short, they lack the most essential skill of plasticity in their actions making their gameplay predictable and therefore easy to counter. This is not something often used in pve, so who can blame them.

I love how this turned into a pvp vs wvw thread.

Edit: Or PvP vs every other game mode or whatever.

ESPURTZ GUYS!!

Jana.6831:

I love how this turned into a pvp vs wvw thread.

Edit: Or PvP vs every other game mode or whatever.

ESPURTZ GUYS!!

WvW is better than Spvp ofc… too bad it’s an unsupported and misunderstood gamemode.

Sadrien.3470:

babazhook.6805:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

go play vs esl teams

Go play wvw – besides if I were into cheesy mode D/P thief it wouldn’t be any problem, I guess – but I don’t like that weaponset.

i did….

hahah cheesy mode dp, never actually played vs good teams and calls dp cheesy… new low reached~

haha, never really played wvw but calls wvw builds which have a ten times more diversity than pvp cheese haha.
How old are you? 12?

I used to spent my entire play time in wvw, at some point i simply realized that pvp is more fun and more skill based, that is it. Cheese has nothing to do with diversity. You just have builds there that rely on gimmicks, gear disparity, broken runes/sigils, food, buffs that you won’t find anywhere in pvp, hiding behind zerg, cnd off NPCs and critters, spamming killshot from tower etc.

You actually know very well how old i am.

Oh and sure let’s judge entire pvp community by one duel i had (which i did say i didn’t want to participate in because of infamous german lag). Still doesn’t change the fact you didn’t play vs good teams, you didn’t play in tourneys, you don’t know how it is to play “cheesy” dp vs good opponents and not some uplv spamming 1. You have no right to judge the set, period.

Pvp is not more skill based.

Skill is a composite of many things. One of course is physical with reaction times to given data received along with hand to eye coordination.

It obvious to everyone however that this hardly the main element or the persons with fastest reflexes would always win no matter the profession they played or the gear they used.

Skill also requires a good amount of knowledge about skills and traits , the nature of each and how they interact with other skills. This includes not only ones own skills and traits but those of the enemies one will encounter.

Another element of skill is experience. The more one plays the better one gets. The more one becomes familiar with the tendencies of other players either as an individual or as a class the better one gets.

None of these elements are exclusive to Pvp.

Now in Pvp there are restrictions on the types of gear one can use , be it sigils trinkets foods or runes. As such a given player in Pvp has less variants of builds to deal with so they can hone very specific skills to deal with such.

In Wvw there far greater a variety of builds so a skilled player( see experience,) has to learn to deal with a greater variety of skills. There more data to process at any given time and more varied reactions that must be used.

It akin to the game of golf wherein a player has a bagful of clubs. On any given golf course one can have bunkers or dog legs, one can have elevated greens or greens of various levels. One can have water hazards or holes that are 550 yards long while others are 200 where the shorter hole generally bogied due to surrounding terrain while eagles are common on the former.

Those in charge suddenly decide they want to take out as many variables as possible because they favor the long strike and the 360 yard shot of the tee.

They then mandate all holes be made longer and straighter and that hazards be removed and greens remain large and flat.

This would favor the long ball hitter over the person good at the short game and ball placement. The players that are better at the long ball would certainly rise to the top but this hardly means they more skilled at the game of golf.

Pvp limits variables to favor specific styles of gameplay and as such very specific skills. The endgame of Pvp is only a handful of builds and styles make the meta and only a small amount of available gear ever used. You then get entire professions not playing because a given meta does not allow that profession to do well no matter the skill.

The so called skill is very specific and suits very specific skills which some find desirable. So to be accurate you can say " The types of skills I prefer are more heavily weighted than those in Wvw" but given the meaning of the word skill which can comprise many things it not accurate to say “Pvp players are more skilled”

The main skill in this game is not reaction, it’s not trait knowledge, it’s not even minmaxing math. It’s adaptation. The ability to quickly see all the possible directions your fight can take and as soon as it starts taking that path to react to what the situation is about to be, not to what it is at the moment and to use every advantage in terrain etc in order to make the fight take the course you want. This is, to a lesser extent, possible in pve but it is so static that there is no adaptation required in your fight manipulation.

And if you want to prove pvp players aren’t more skilled why did my pug yoloque team beat a full DnT guild team who were in voice coms? Obviously they were not able to adapt to the situation they were in properly, unlike pvp players. In short, they lack the most essential skill of plasticity in their actions making their gameplay predictable and therefore easy to counter. This is not something often used in pve, so who can blame them.

Your example is anecdotal. In order for your claims to have merit you have to demonstrate a reason as to WHY a PvP player would be more adaptable.

PvP player adapt better…because…..???? Your group may have but that does not make it PvP exclusive.

I can give you anecdotal evidence of PvP players that tried WvW for the first time and died over and over again and then whispering to me what my build was and how it was I could survive . This does not prove PvP players not adaptable. it merely an example of someone not being able or willing to adapt to a different environment.

That said this is getting off topic so i will end this conversation here.

Sadrien.3470:

The main skill in this game is not reaction, it’s not trait knowledge, it’s not even minmaxing math. It’s adaptation. The ability to quickly see all the possible directions your fight can take and as soon as it starts taking that path to react to what the situation is about to be, not to what it is at the moment and to use every advantage in terrain etc in order to make the fight take the course you want. This is, to a lesser extent, possible in pve but it is so static that there is no adaptation required in your fight manipulation.

How do you adapt without reaction?
How do you adapt without knowledge?

And if you want to prove pvp players aren’t more skilled why did my pug yoloque team beat a full DnT guild team who were in voice coms? Obviously they were not able to adapt to the situation they were in properly, unlike pvp players. In short, they lack the most essential skill of plasticity in their actions making their gameplay predictable and therefore easy to counter. This is not something often used in pve, so who can blame them.

Your example can mean many things;
1) PvP players are more skilled because a PUG beat a pre-made PvP team.
2) PvP players aren’t more skilled because a pre-made PvP team on a voice chat lost to a riff-raff PUG team.
3) The pre-made team was trying to adapt, switching up tactics on the fly that they have not practiced and failed big time.
4) The pre-made team was trying a new strategy, using professions they weren’t good at and failed.
5) The pre-made team was throwing the game to rig the matchmaking.
6) One of the pre-made team’s member spilled a hot coffee on their lap.

So on and so forth.

GenoGar.5497:

As a warrior main and thief secondary, I am no stranger to the lack of Dev love our classes get.

However, I find it odd that anyone with a class in this current state would ever call for nerfs for their own class.

As an example from the Warrior forums, the Greatsword is pretty much the universal weapon for Warriors, required for Greataxe and required for Phalanx Strength (and consequently raids). It is determined that the culprit of this dominance is the trait Forceful Greatsword which is probably the best Master trait in the entire game, giving a huge damage modifier, 20% CD reduction, and Might on critical without an ICD.

However, gutting the Greatsword is not the way to go. Why would anyone want to shoot Greatsword in the foot just to make other terrible weapons look better? Why not just make the terrible weapons better? That analogy with the 3 starving children with 1 fat one… it’s more like 3 starving children cannibalizing the 1 fat one. So now you have 3 somewhat nourished but still miserable children and 1 dead one. Is the problem that the one kid was fat and got chocolate? No, it’s because the kitten parent isn’t feeding their dam kids (ANet, hello). You should be happy that one kid is actually relatively successful rather than being spiteful you don’t get chocolate.

As you are all PvPers and WvWers, you all should roughly know that Warriors are all forced into a Defense trait line while using 3 stances + 1 or 2 traited stances. Warriors complain that they’re all forced to use stances to even be good because they’re bad without them. Do we want stances nerfed into the ground? No… Do you think if ANet gutted Stances with a knife, they would somehow actually make other garbage utilities better (Keyword here: garbage utilities)? No… The thing is that there is a much more underlying problem with the warrior as a class.

So all this talk about D/P and other weapon sets is pretty odd. In my eyes, D/P is successful at what it sets out to do and has its own flaws. It’s probably the best designed and balanced set. Other weapons are either well designed and terribly balanced… or terribly designed and well balanced (or terribly designed and terribly balanced… what I thought of P/P for a while). D/P being well designed/balanced does not in any way limit the design space or balance of the other weapon sets: the problem is the other weapon sets limiting their own design space or being terribly tuned or balanced.

I thought this was a great comparison with warrior’s Greatsword as it has mobiluty, evasion, and decent situational damage.

D/P and Staff really are the 2 best balanced and tuned sets. OH dagger is the main offender here imo, with some undertuned dual skills being the secondary problem (Deathblossom, FS/LS, Pistol Whip).

I can’t believe ppl base thier opinion off of WvW

LOL