Guild Wars 2

Gibimo.2193:

babazhook.6805:

I think we can all agree off hand dagger needs a gimmick and one that will help p/d s/d and d/d but what is that Gimmick?

It can not ignore that there three weapon sets that are in fact suffering nor do I personally think duplicating something one of the other two helps a lot.

Now s/d might see a bit of a boost come tomorrow and we might well see more s/d but we also have to realize if the gimmick something that does too much to help s/d relative to d/d , then s/d could become the nect d/p.

P/d in my opinion is in as bad a spot as d/d. On the server I play my own wvw on I certainly see more d/d power users then p/d thiefs.

I think we should just wait a bit, see the changes that happen tomorrow, measure the impact they have on exisiting x/d sets and then rethink from scratch.

yeah I can’t agree more for that off hand dagger need a gimmick.
I think the main problem of off dagger is its stealth is too passive and defensive.
It needs effective gap closer for main hand to use it properly and requires high skills to use it aggressive. which is directed to the pressure problem.
thief can take some defensive options but not like this.

I don’t think gimmicks would solve the problem. Then you just end up with spam.

I disagree completely that OH Dagger’s stealth is passive and defensive. You can’t just reset a fight and sit in stealth at a distance licking your wounds like you can with D/P; you need to play aggressively in order for the skill to land to get the stealth. The problem is that getting this skill to land is dreadfully difficult with all the invulns going on right now, and D/P’s control is just so much better that once it’s engaged it functions better in melee from a defensive perspective via BP and Shadow Shot’s fast blinds, and interruption on Headshot.

The big question is how to make D/D effective while not gimmicky/spammy for both its power and condition options, and to define a style and purpose for the set that isn’t just objectively better/worse than D/P.

Gibimo.2193:

and btw just blast water field when you see it
it’s placed because its called

True, but most mesmers aren’t as smart as me – and that was the point: I did what I could and I could = even though my class sucks I’m a good player and that’s what every commander should know and what I guess most people who know me know – I may suck in 1 vs 1 (nowadays) – but I still know how to play this game.

ETA: Saying “We don’t want class x” is just stupid. I can understand when something like that is said in GvGs but not in public zerg fights. Even in guild raids good commanders know that people will likely be better on their mains and usually allow them to play whatever class they like.
Btw: Had I used mass stealth I’d drawn attention to our point, so I was just stealthing him and me and healed him long enough (the healing is a joke, I know) until others noticed and came by – I then even blasted their waterfield

And in general: I think I have pretty much given up on this game.
It’s nice they acknowledged thief needed a buff but what I read from the patch notes is just too little to make D/D work again, which is my spec, always has been always will be. So now it’s another 6 – x months until they finially realize that half of the traits need a rework and that other thief specs could be viable again with some minor tweaks here and there (HINT CIS IN MASTER HINT)

So, GG anet, for killing your own game.

Nerf D/P to make D/D more viable… Lol… I’m sorry, but if that is not the dumbest I have heard in a while, I don’t know what it is. Don’t get me wrong, I love D/D and it’s definitely my preferred spec. I even quit back in the days when they destroyed it. So I feel your pain, but to nerf other specs is not (as others have already mentioned) not the best solution.

Focus on making things better, not worse (i.e. buff D/D).

Have a good one buddy.

Zidd.6083:

Nerf D/P to make D/D more viable… Lol… I’m sorry, but if that is not the dumbest I have heard in a while, I don’t know what it is.

That comment is dumber because you jumped to a wrong conclusion.

To reach an equilibrium, the gap between D/P and D/D needs to be addressed. Your wrong conclusion shows that you think that this thread wants D/P to go down to D/D’s level, well that is not what this thread is about.

Rather, this thread (if you read it) illustrated that to make D/D viable is not to buff it to D/P’s level instead they both need to reach an equilibrium by nerfing D/P and buffing D/D at the same time — in other words, meeting both sets half way in the middle.

In addition, if D/P is nerfed to meet D/D in the middle, others believe that D/P will be underpowered, thus the OP states that “let us all be unviable so they finally work on the rest of thief and not just assume that everybody plays D/P” which is the main goal to attract attention to the bad weapon sets choices the Thief have.

So just because a weaponset is better than another weaponset you personally love more, it needs to be nerfed?

Then we can nerf all weapons on all classes, cant we?
Just ask for D/D buff, not d/p nerf.

Just read the freaking thread!

The problem is, as long as D/P is in the spotlight, other sets are left in the dark not just D/D.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem is, as long as D/P is in the spotlight, other sets are left in the dark not just D/D.

so let’s nerf dp and embrace vault spam………… okkkk

Cynz.9437:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem is, as long as D/P is in the spotlight, other sets are left in the dark not just D/D.

so let’s nerf dp and embrace vault spam………… okkkk

That doesn’t even make sense. Trying to be funny?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem is, as long as D/P is in the spotlight, other sets are left in the dark not just D/D.

Taking D/P out of the spotlight until it’s not viable to play wouldn’t help the other sets, it would simply limit thief to the next best set (staff). The other sets don’t magically become the better versus other classes. The problem is the weak offhand dagger. S/D is still objectively weaker than the aforementioned (disregarding DPS for a second) because 2 of that set’s skills are undertuned. S/D’s 1, 2, and 3 can make up for these shortcomings. D/D can’t make up for the lack of utility. Buffing offhand dagger to a competitive level would help the 3 underperfoming combinations whereas nerfing D/P just tears down D/P and possibly 3 other sets depending on the extent of the nerfs.

Let’s look at a different class for a second. Ele dagger is in a much better place than ele scepter. They shouldn’t be asking for nerfs to dagger mainhand to bring down both sets to an uncompetitive level, but instead they need to buff scepter to a competive level that fills a different playstyle/niche.

Back to thief, OH dagger simply isn’t competitive with OH pistol. It doesn’t have the damage or utility. Buffing the utility of it by adding something unique that pistol doesn’t have is the way to go. This could be shadowsteps (as I and others have suggested), condi clears, boon hate, life gain, superspeed, quickness, blinds, or whatever you want (within reason). The ways they could improve oh dagger is almost unlimited while the only thing that nerfing D/P is going to accomplish is removing a competitive set and perhaps hurting 3 other already weak ones.

So I probably missed a lot, because I only read the first page. But OP is saying that D/P isn’t melee?

Traditional D/P opener is 5>2f1 to lock into melee range, then just beat the tar out of the target with whatever comes to mind, Shadow shot is only used to catch a target, not as any form of real DPS, that is usually AA spam and HS.

Also OP says “nerf D/P” but doesn’t provide any further information? As it stands right now the main DPS for D/P is about the same for D/D, both use AA and Heart seeker as the primary output.

This topic seems poorly conceived thus far, and until it gets some sort of set track needs to chill.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem is, as long as D/P is in the spotlight, other sets are left in the dark not just D/D.

Taking D/P out of the spotlight until it’s not viable to play wouldn’t help the other sets, it would simply limit thief to the next best set (staff). The other sets don’t magically become the better versus other classes. The problem is the weak offhand dagger. S/D is still objectively weaker than the aforementioned (disregarding DPS for a second) because 2 of that set’s skills are undertuned. S/D’s 1, 2, and 3 can make up for these shortcomings. D/D can’t make up for the lack of utility. Buffing offhand dagger to a competitive level would help the 3 underperfoming combinations whereas nerfing D/P just tears down D/P and possibly 3 other sets depending on the extent of the nerfs.

Let’s look at a different class for a second. Ele dagger is in a much better place than ele scepter. They shouldn’t be asking for nerfs to dagger mainhand to bring down both sets to an uncompetitive level, but instead they need to buff scepter to a competive level that fills a different playstyle/niche.

Back to thief, OH dagger simply isn’t competitive with OH pistol. It doesn’t have the damage or utility. Buffing the utility of it by adding something unique that pistol doesn’t have is the way to go. This could be shadowsteps (as I and others have suggested), condi clears, boon hate, life gain, superspeed, quickness, blinds, or whatever you want (within reason). The ways they could improve oh dagger is almost unlimited while the only thing that nerfing D/P is going to accomplish is removing a competitive set and perhaps hurting 3 other already weak ones.

The buff and nerfs were not aimed at the weapon set, rather at the number of traits available for D/P compare to the traits available to D/D and other sets.

@ Aidal: D/P isn’t melee – try D/D for a bit and realize that the gap closer 3 offers you a completely different playstyle which isn’t melee.

@ Maugetarr: The problem and reason why I called for a nerf is that each thief has got access to all traits – that was the initial “problem”.
Overall all other sets either need a massive buff (which isn’t that easy as D mainhand and D offhand, P mainhand and P offhand always have the same skills – and it just happens to synergize ridiculously well with D/P) – or D/P should be toned down so we can get useful traits “for all” thieves (D/P is that independend that it works with any traits) which wouldn’t make D/P op and call for an overall nerf for thief which would leave us at the start again.
If you look at all traits D/D, D/P, P/D usually use, you’ll find that all possible builds are suited for D/P, that’s another problem. And it’s really their playstyle – hidden killer doesn’t really help me even with the buff – it further buffs D/P – it feels as if our class revolves around D/P.
I also mentioned that D/P now does more damage than D/D and I don’t see why this is justified.

And yes this thread was also meant as a “HEY ANET WE’VE GOT A PROBLEM, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THIS!!”
I mean they can bring out another expansion with new elites or they can care for the x vanilla specs of all classes which have been left behind.

Edit: Added stuff as the former sentence didn’t make sense.

Jana.6831:

D/P isn’t melee – try D/D for a bit and realize that the gap closer 3 offers you a completely different playstyle which isn’t melee.

I’m confused, the source of my damage is a melee attack. Specifically, with this patch it’s dagger AA.

Two: I don’t even use shadow shot. The pistol is literally in my offhand for the cloak accessibility, Shadow shot doesn’t merit enough damage to be useful to me, if I want blind I have blinding powder for that.

But lets look at that statement, specifically “gap closer” is traditionally used by melee primaries to get close enough to deliver melee damage. Guardian’s have it in Leap of faith and Judges intervention, Warriors have Rush, Eviscerate, Savage Leap, elementalists have ride the lightning and Lightning flash, etc.. etc.

Thieves have Shadow step, steal, Infiltrator’s Signet, Infiltrator’s Strike, and shadow shot.

So your complaint is that the pistol offers a more readily available melee attacks. Removing shadow shot won’t affect the overall advantage D/P has though, You’re fighting over the wrong thing.

Aidal.4901:

Jana.6831:

D/P isn’t melee – try D/D for a bit and realize that the gap closer 3 offers you a completely different playstyle which isn’t melee.

I’m confused, the source of my damage is a melee attack. Specifically, with this patch it’s dagger AA.

Two: I don’t even use shadow shot……

Then I can’t help you.

Jana.6831:

Then I can’t help you.

You could form your argument a bit better? That might help me. From the D/D standpoint, the reason I turned away from it is because of the utility options specifically.

one: CnD requires a target, this makes it an okay opener, but horrible utility as I cannot cloak when required to disengage from opponents or simply relieve myself of some pressure.

two: With Impacting Disruption, head shot has the potential to be a rather nice spike in addition to an interrupt, on that topic, the lack of interrupt or disruption abilities D/D has.

Those two facts alone tell me that D/P edges out, but no, your argument seems to be entirely based around Shadow shot being some sort of game swaying move, at least thus far.

Jana.6831:

@ Aidal: D/P isn’t melee – try D/D for a bit and realize that the gap closer 3 offers you a completely different playstyle which isn’t melee.

@ Maugetarr: The problem and reason why I called for a nerf is that each thief has got access to all traits – that was the initial “problem”.
Overall all other sets either need a massive buff (which isn’t that easy as D mainhand and D offhand, P mainhand and P offhand always have the same skills – and it just happens to synergize ridiculously well with D/P) – or D/P should be toned down so we can get useful traits “for all” thieves (D/P is that independend that it works with any traits) which wouldn’t make D/P op and call for an overall nerf for thief which would leave us at the start again.
If you look at all traits D/D, D/P, P/D usually use, you’ll find that all possible builds are suited for D/P, that’s another problem. And it’s really their playstyle – hidden killer doesn’t really help me even with the buff – it further buffs D/P – it feels as if our class revolves around D/P.
I also mentioned that D/P now does more damage than D/D and I don’t see why this is justified.

And yes this thread was also meant as a “HEY ANET WE’VE GOT A PROBLEM, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THIS!!”
I mean they can bring out another expansion with new elites or they can care for the x vanilla specs of all classes which have been left behind.

Edit: Added stuff as the former sentence didn’t make sense.

You’ve identified the problem, but here the tac you’ve taken is in the wrong direction. You identified that D/P works properly, so it can basically use all of the available traits. The solution isn’t to bring down D/P so that it requires certain traits to function correctly, but bring the other sets up to par so that they can function with any sets of traits as well.

Your underlying theme is to make certain traits mandatory for certain weaponsets, which is not going to help thief build diversity, but going to hurt it. Look at how virtually every thief is locked into trickery to be competitive. The solution isn’t to remove preparedness, BT, and SoH, because would objectively just make thief weaker. The objective is to look at what makes trickery mandatory and try to incorporate some of it into the core thief to lessen the disparity between deciding to take trickery or forego it.

Bringing the trickery argument back around to D/P, we shouldn’t nerf D/P, but instead look at what makes it successful and incorporate those design decisions into the other weaponsets. D/P has good sustained damage, good spike damage, a blinding gap closer that hits (unecessarily) hard, a ranged interrupt, and a secure method to enter stealth. D/D has good sustained and spike damage, however it lacks the ability to stick to target, a dual attack at odds with the rest of the set, a weak and slow cripple, and relatively expensive and yet unreliable stealth. The main culprit as to where these two weaponsets deviate from each other is the offhand. S/D is only viable because it has decent sustained damage, the ability to stick to target, and a unified dual skill. The ability to close gaps and evade makes up for the unreliable nature of of the OH dagger stealth and weak cripple. It’s only working because sword is carrying the dagger offhand.

You’re looking at the situation backwards. It’s not justified for D/D to lack the damage because it doesn’t have the utility to make up for it. Utility needs to be brought up to par. The only reason D/P is doing more damage than D/D is because it’s staying on target so much better. Shadowshot damage might be overtuned, but it’s equal to less than 1 second of autoattacking at this point. It they removed virtually all the damage from shadowshot, the overall set would barely feel it.

Aidal.4901:

You could form your argument a bit better?

Sure I can: If you have no idea how to use that weaponset then why are you even trying to tell me that I’m wrong?!

Maugetarr.6823:

Jana.6831:

@ Aidal: D/P isn’t melee – try D/D for a bit and realize that the gap closer 3 offers you a completely different playstyle which isn’t melee.

@ Maugetarr: The problem and reason why I called for a nerf is that each thief has got access to all traits – that was the initial “problem”.
Overall all other sets either need a massive buff (which isn’t that easy as D mainhand and D offhand, P mainhand and P offhand always have the same skills – and it just happens to synergize ridiculously well with D/P) – or D/P should be toned down so we can get useful traits “for all” thieves (D/P is that independend that it works with any traits) which wouldn’t make D/P op and call for an overall nerf for thief which would leave us at the start again.
If you look at all traits D/D, D/P, P/D usually use, you’ll find that all possible builds are suited for D/P, that’s another problem. And it’s really their playstyle – hidden killer doesn’t really help me even with the buff – it further buffs D/P – it feels as if our class revolves around D/P.
I also mentioned that D/P now does more damage than D/D and I don’t see why this is justified.

And yes this thread was also meant as a “HEY ANET WE’VE GOT A PROBLEM, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THIS!!”
I mean they can bring out another expansion with new elites or they can care for the x vanilla specs of all classes which have been left behind.

Edit: Added stuff as the former sentence didn’t make sense.

You’ve identified the problem, but here the tac you’ve taken is in the wrong direction. You identified that D/P works properly, so it can basically use all of the available traits. The solution isn’t to bring down D/P so that it requires certain traits to function correctly, but bring the other sets up to par so that they can function with any sets of traits as well.

That’s power creep and it’s not good for the game, thus the aim of the thread is to bring D/P down enough to meet the other set in the middle. Then fix the traits so that all sets can benefit. starting with CiS going to Master.

Your underlying theme is to make certain traits mandatory for certain weaponsets, which is not going to help thief build diversity, but going to hurt it. Look at how virtually every thief is locked into trickery to be competitive. The solution isn’t to remove preparedness, BT, and SoH, because would objectively just make thief weaker. The objective is to look at what makes trickery mandatory and try to incorporate some of it into the core thief to lessen the disparity between deciding to take trickery or forego it.

It’s quite obvious why Trickery is staple: 15 init pool and Steal CDR. Make those default then Trick would not be that important.

You’re looking at the situation backwards. It’s not justified for D/D to lack the damage because it doesn’t have the utility to make up for it. Utility needs to be brought up to par. The only reason D/P is doing more damage than D/D is because it’s staying on target so much better. Shadowshot damage might be overtuned, but it’s equal to less than 1 second of autoattacking at this point. It they removed virtually all the damage from shadowshot, the overall set would barely feel it.

I would argue that it’s not about D/P’s ability to stick to target, rather it has access to blind that allows the set to stay longer than D/D — which is one of the issues brought up having CiS in GM.

Jana.6831:

Aidal.4901:

You could form your argument a bit better?

Sure I can: If you have no idea how to use that weaponset then why are you even trying to tell me that I’m wrong?!

Literally highlighted strengths and weaknesses and you say that.

lemme be blunt, D/D lacks utility, so its horrible. Even if 3 was removed entirely, D/P still has a stun and cloak on demand answer these two with a yes or no, nothing more.

Does D/D have a stun?

Does D/D have cloak on demand?

@ Maugetarr: Right now D/D and P/D also P/P and even SB (can’t speak for staff S/D and S/P) – have got no traits.
My idea isn’t really to make traits mandatory but to offer them some viability². Basically like we had it before June as everybody was free to chose whatever traits they wanted to and it still worked for most sets. Nonetheless D/P was comparatively OP even then although a lot weaker than it is now.

You did get that part when I said that thanks to trickery D/P has got 2 CCs and 2 gap closers, right? Also the only limitation they had (initative) is redundant.
So with that line D/P gets twice as much as any other thief. You can make it baseline, then they’ll get thrice as much. Or did I get you wrong?

I’m not looking backwards at the problem, I actually see that buffing other sets isn’t that easy – baba said it the other day and he is partially right: we can’t just give every other set the same abilities – which would be difficult in case of D/D anyway.

Look up the skills: SS does more damage.
Usual D/D combo: CnD + steal, BS
Usual D/P combo: SS + steal, BS

Edit: ² In case of D/P I would imagine making traits that give them some of the utility they have now back – so probably the blind, unblockable or the damage SS does. They’d have to sacrifice some of their traitslots to either get back the utility they have now or chose different traits = they have less utility on their weaponset.

ETA: How about “your offhand weaponskills become unblockable” a trait like that? That would suit all 2 handed weaponsets. Althought it might be OP in case of DB.. but not with an ICD.

Aidal.4901:

Jana.6831:

Aidal.4901:

You could form your argument a bit better?

Sure I can: If you have no idea how to use that weaponset then why are you even trying to tell me that I’m wrong?!

Literally highlighted strengths and weaknesses and you say that.

lemme be blunt, D/D lacks utility, so its horrible. Even if 3 was removed entirely, D/P still has a stun and cloak on demand answer these two with a yes or no, nothing more.

Does D/D have a stun?

Does D/D have cloak on demand?

You do realize that you’re only proving the point of this thread right?

Jana.6831:

Look up the skills: SS does more damage.
Usual D/D combo: CnD + steal, BS
Usual D/P combo: SS + steal, BS

Edit: ² In case of D/P I would imagine making traits that give them some of the utility they have now back – so probably the blind, unblockable or the damage SS does. They’d have to sacrifice some of their traitslots to either get back the utility they have now or chose different traits = they have less utility on their weaponset.

Almost every thief I know rolls Mug, making steal break cloak not provide it. So the chain of SS>Steal>BS does not work.

Usual thief openings I see are black powder, HS+Steal, this does about the same damage CnD+Steal would do.

Shadow shot is often canceled if a thief is in cloak because it’s a two part attack, the actual “attack” would interrupt backstab, the shot itself does nothing.

@Vincent

I’m proving D/D needs to be reworked, because as it stands D/P is outright better, but adjusting the 4 and 5 would literally shatter a lot of the meta. OP needs to get her priorities straight.

Jana.6831:

Look up the skills: SS does more damage.
Usual D/D combo: CnD + steal, BS
Usual D/P combo: SS + steal, BS

Edit: ² In case of D/P I would imagine making traits that give them some of the utility they have now back – so probably the blind, unblockable or the damage SS does. They’d have to sacrifice some of their traitslots to either get back the utility they have now or chose different traits = they have less utility on their weaponset.

Almost every thief I know rolls Mug, making steal break cloak not provide it. So the chain of SS>Steal>BS does not work.

Usual thief openings I see are black powder, HS+Steal, this does about the same damage CnD+Steal would do.

Shadow shot is often canceled if a thief is in cloak because it’s a two part attack, the actual “attack” would interrupt backstab, the shot itself does nothing.

@Vincent

I’m proving D/D needs to be reworked, because as it stands D/P is outright better, but adjusting the 4 and 5 would literally shatter a lot of the meta. OP needs to get her priorities straight.

Aidal.4901:

OP needs to get her priorities straight.

At least you realized that I’m a she – kudos for that.
Learn a bit more about thief though, will you? =)

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_D/P_Roamer

Rolling a variant on that. I know what I’m about.

Aidal.4901:

@Vincent

I’m proving D/D needs to be reworked, because as it stands D/P is outright better, but adjusting the 4 and 5 would literally shatter a lot of the meta. OP needs to get her priorities straight.

That’s the point all along — D/P is so much better, nobody is arguing that it isn’t, so I’m not so sure what you’re arguing against…you need to make sense.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s power creep and it’s not good for the game, thus the aim of the thread is to bring D/P down enough to meet the other set in the middle. Then fix the traits so that all sets can benefit. starting with CiS going to Master.

If you want to call it powercreep, that’s fine, but I’m talking about bringing an unterperforming weapon up to the same level as a currently functional one. That’s more like balancing it. Right now it’s underperfoming and sets that can’t cover the holes in utility are suffering for it. I already mentioned though that taking virtually all the damage out of shadowshot would not hurt the D/P set because the set is well designed. Offhand dagger is not well designed because it lacks utility and damage. It needs buffs.

Your underlying theme is to make certain traits mandatory for certain weaponsets, which is not going to help thief build diversity, but going to hurt it. Look at how virtually every thief is locked into trickery to be competitive. The solution isn’t to remove preparedness, BT, and SoH, because would objectively just make thief weaker. The objective is to look at what makes trickery mandatory and try to incorporate some of it into the core thief to lessen the disparity between deciding to take trickery or forego it.

It’s quite obvious why Trickery is staple: 15 init pool and Steal CDR. Make those default then Trick would not be that important.

Well we agree on this, however, this could also be considered powercreep to do this and rather not kitten in the design of thief based on your previous statement. Nerfing D/P is more akin to simply removing Preparedness and the CDR of SoH.

You’re looking at the situation backwards. It’s not justified for D/D to lack the damage because it doesn’t have the utility to make up for it. Utility needs to be brought up to par. The only reason D/P is doing more damage than D/D is because it’s staying on target so much better. Shadowshot damage might be overtuned, but it’s equal to less than 1 second of autoattacking at this point. It they removed virtually all the damage from shadowshot, the overall set would barely feel it.

I would argue that it’s not about D/P’s ability to stick to target, rather it has access to blind that allows the set to stay longer than D/D — which is one of the issues brought up having CiS in GM.

Which is really just going back to the root issue of lack of utility on OH dagger (and the associated dual skills).

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Aidal.4901:

@Vincent

I’m proving D/D needs to be reworked, because as it stands D/P is outright better, but adjusting the 4 and 5 would literally shatter a lot of the meta. OP needs to get her priorities straight.

That’s the point all along — D/P is so much better, nobody is arguing that it isn’t, so I’m not so sure what you’re arguing against…you need to make sense.

OP’s major beef as that D/P isn’t a melee class soley because of D/P 3. Completely ignoring everything else about D/P.

I was calling OP out for being poorly informed, and even educating them on how to structure an argument.

You can go back to whatever you were doin’ man. My pet peeve is when people just don’t argue right, debates and things should be fun and factual.

Aidal.4901:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Aidal.4901:

@Vincent

I’m proving D/D needs to be reworked, because as it stands D/P is outright better, but adjusting the 4 and 5 would literally shatter a lot of the meta. OP needs to get her priorities straight.

That’s the point all along — D/P is so much better, nobody is arguing that it isn’t, so I’m not so sure what you’re arguing against…you need to make sense.

OP’s major beef as that D/P isn’t a melee class soley because of D/P 3. Completely ignoring everything else about D/P.

I was calling OP out for being poorly informed, and even educating them on how to structure an argument.

You can go back to whatever you were doin’ man. My pet peeve is when people just don’t argue right, debates and things should be fun and factual.

It also need to make sense.

D/P is not a melee weapon set based on the fact that it uses Pistol offhand. So you’re wrong on that part.

Staff, D/D, S/D are melee weapon sets since they don’t use any ranged weapon.

At this point, you’re just convoluting the thread with your false technicalities.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dancing_Dagger Ranged attack, it might be puny, but it’s ranged.

If you want false technicality there you go. But when it comes to meta the ranged aspect of the pistol offhand is completely overlooked by its usage as in utility. And Meta is the only thing that does/should matter since it revolves around choosing the superior choice.

But I’ll bow out man.You win, I won’t argue. We done, and I won’t visit this thread again.

Jana.6831:

@ Maugetarr: Right now D/D and P/D also P/P and even SB (can’t speak for staff S/D and S/P) – have got no traits.
My idea isn’t really to make traits mandatory but to offer them some viability². Basically like we had it before June as everybody was free to chose whatever traits they wanted to and it still worked for most sets. Nonetheless D/P was comparatively OP even then although a lot weaker than it is now.

You did get that part when I said that thanks to trickery D/P has got 2 CCs and 2 gap closers, right? Also the only limitation they had (initative) is redundant.
So with that line D/P gets twice as much as any other thief. You can make it baseline, then they’ll get thrice as much. Or did I get you wrong?

You got me wrong. Moving Preparedness to baseline and the CDR of SoH doesn’t give D/P thrice as much, but rather gives options to thieves to not take trickery.

I’m not looking backwards at the problem, I actually see that buffing other sets isn’t that easy – baba said it the other day and he is partially right: we can’t just give every other set the same abilities – which would be difficult in case of D/D anyway.

How would you nerf D/P down to the level of uncompetitiveness as D/D though without harming P/P, S/P, and D/D? The only unique skill it has is shadowshot. I’ve already mentioned that even taking out all the damage would still leave the set competitive because a large amount of the damage comes from the Autos and heartseeker (shared with D/D) and a large amount of the utility comes from the pistol offhand (shared with S/P and P/P). Nerfing the set without hurting the other sets that are underperforming would be much more difficult than buffing dagger utility and adjusting initiative costs. All of the X/D sets are underperforming.

Look up the skills: SS does more damage.
Usual D/D combo: CnD + steal, BS
Usual D/P combo: SS + steal, BS

Yes, IIRC shadowshot has a 1.3 multiplier and CnD has a 1.25. However I’ve already adressed the fact that if you took out the damage, the set would perform just as well, because of the autos and HS. Those sit at 1.6+mult/sec now overshadowing both shadowshot and CnD damage. The gap closer is the strong part of that, which is the utility of the set. Imagine Shadowshot has no damage for a second and consider the following scenario.

D/P: steal> enemy opens gap> Shadowshot(0 damage)>auto, auto, auto
D/D: steal> enemy opens gap> other stuff wasted in an attempt to close gap (utilities, weaponswap, whatever) > unsuccessfully run away

Offhand dagger needs the ability to stick to it’s targets better.

Edit: ² In case of D/P I would imagine making traits that give them some of the utility they have now back – so probably the blind, unblockable or the damage SS does. They’d have to sacrifice some of their traitslots to either get back the utility they have now or chose different traits = they have less utility on their weaponset.

First of all, the unblockable portion of the shadowshot was a method to overcome the issue that this set had with reflections. When the shot wasa reflected it actually teleported your target to you and then cleared the blind with the strike automatically, so they’re probably not changing that part of it. The other parts you’ve mentioned though are just going to make certain traits mandatory. It doesn’t help, and honestly we end up with a bunch of useless traitslots that can only be used by one weaponset, and even more specifically to you example, one specific weaponskill.

ETA: How about “your offhand weaponskills become unblockable” a trait like that? That would suit all 2 handed weaponsets. Althought it might be OP in case of DB.. but not with an ICD.

Uh, sure, but that would buff D/P with an unblockable headshot….. and herein lies the problem. The steps you want to take have a ripple effect boosting the already successful weaponsets. Let’s look at the common factor in all the underperforming sets, which happens to be offhand dagger, and make adjustments there.

Maugetarr.6823:

You got me wrong. Moving Preparedness to baseline and the CDR of SoH doesn’t give D/P thrice as much, but rather gives options to thieves to not take trickery.

And that is a point for what now? D/P doesn’t have to cose trickery anymore as they have at it gives on their set anyway. Yes, every other thief though “still has to take it”.

Maugetarr.6823:

How would you nerf D/P down to the level of uncompetitiveness as D/D though without harming P/P, S/P, and D/D? The only unique skill it has is shadowshot.

Sir Vincent already explained it, I already explained it and yes, we’re talking about shadowshot. I want all weaponsets to be equally strong anf for that D/P has to be nerfed. Doesn’t mean I want them all to be useless.

Maugetarr.6823:

Yes, IIRC shadowshot has a 1.3 multiplier and CnD has a 1.25. However I’ve already adressed the fact that if …

There is no reason why SS does more damage than CnD none!
Even if you take the DPS in a pvp scenario D/P would be better off by far.

Maugetarr.6823:

First of all, the unblockable portion of the shadowshot was a method to overcome the issue that this set had with reflections. When the shot wasa reflected it actually teleported your target to you and then cleared the blind with the strike automatically, so they’re probably not changing that part of it. The other parts you’ve mentioned though are just going to make certain traits mandatory. It doesn’t help, and honestly we end up with a bunch of useless traitslots that can only be used by one weaponset, and even more specifically to you example, one specific weaponskill.

So? that was an example of how I imagine traits to be like to that all builds would benefit from it. You can take the blind out or you can take the damage out instead – or you can create a trait additionally to this as it would be rather weak for D/P anyway if they still kept their unblockable on theri SS.

Maugetarr.6823:

Uh, sure, but that would buff D/P with an unblockable headshot….. and herein lies the problem. The steps you want to take have a ripple effect boosting the already successful weaponsets. Let’s look at the common factor in all the underperforming sets, which happens to be offhand dagger, and make adjustments there.

Alright, so what do you think: we all should just play D/P and shut up?

Aidal.4901:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dancing_Dagger Ranged attack, it might be puny, but it’s ranged.

If you want false technicality there you go. But when it comes to meta the ranged aspect of the pistol offhand is completely overlooked by its usage as in utility. And Meta is the only thing that does/should matter since it revolves around choosing the superior choice.

Get out of here…now that’s just petty and silly.

There’s a big difference between a “ranged attack” and a “ranged weapon set”.

And Meta doesn’t matter because ArenaNet is not balancing based on the Meta. They said it themselves, they balanced based on all aspect of the game which include both PvP and WvW.

But I’ll bow out man.You win, I won’t argue. We done, and I won’t visit this thread again.

You don’t add anything constructive anyway.

Honestly the first post in this thread is so vague with such questionable logic that I don’t even know what to address. OP fails to clearly identify where she thinks the cause of the issue lies. Is it D/P as a weapon set that’s too powerful or is D/D too weak? Is it just D/P #3? Is it the traits? Is it everything together? Then she fails to suggest any way to solve her supposed problem, but just goes on to say “let’s nerf D/P!” It would be nice for discussion if we had some concrete points to address, because as the OP stands atm, it will lead nowhere.

In all honesty I fail to see how nerfing D/P would help D/D in any way. Nerfing one weapon set in order to draw attention to another? Really? Have thief players become so masochistic that we just think thieves should become unviable entirely before we can start addressing where the real issues lie?

D/D as a weapon set is inherently flawed because it’s third skill, Death Blossom, is completely disconnected from the rest of the weapon set. In condition builds, D/D revolves around spamming 3, almost completely ignoring every other skill. In power builds on the other hand, Death Blossom is usually ignored entirely. There is no synergy whatsoever. IMHO, fixing D/D should start with finding a way to incoorporate Death Blossom into the rest of the weapon set and creating synergy between the skills, or, failing that, just replace it with an entirely new skill. Perhaps too bad for condi thieves who can’t spam 3 anymore, but there’s always P/D. Maybe a future elite specialization can then bring a proper condition set for melee.

Furthermore, I don’t think any D/P thieves in high tier play use Shadow Arts, so I don’t see how D/P is holding back D/D there. Can someone explain this to me? Do ANet not balance around high tier play?

Jana.6831:

Maugetarr.6823:

You got me wrong. Moving Preparedness to baseline and the CDR of SoH doesn’t give D/P thrice as much, but rather gives options to thieves to not take trickery.

And that is a point for what now? D/P doesn’t have to cose trickery anymore as they have at it gives on their set anyway. Yes, every other thief though “still has to take it”.

Why would any other set have to take it and D/P wouldn’t? They either all still would or all still wouldn’t. D/P isn’t getting extra initiative or a CDR on steal from simply taking the weaponset.

Maugetarr.6823:

Maugetarr.6823:

How would you nerf D/P down to the level of uncompetitiveness as D/D though without harming P/P, S/P, and D/D? The only unique skill it has is shadowshot.

Sir Vincent already explained it, I already explained it and yes, we’re talking about shadowshot. I want all weaponsets to be equally strong anf for that D/P has to be nerfed. Doesn’t mean I want them all to be useless.

A nerf to D/P doesn’t help the other weaponsets against other classes though, it just makes D/P weaker.

Maugetarr.6823:

Maugetarr.6823:

Yes, IIRC shadowshot has a 1.3 multiplier and CnD has a 1.25. However I’ve already adressed the fact that if …

There is no reason why SS does more damage than CnD none!
Even if you take the DPS in a pvp scenario D/P would be better off by far.

I think we’ve actually reached a point of agreement here. D/P is a synergistic setup that would be successful even without the damage on Shadowshot. My goal is to make dagger offhand just as useful.

Maugetarr.6823:

Maugetarr.6823:

First of all, the unblockable portion of the shadowshot was a method to overcome the issue that this set had with reflections. When the shot wasa reflected it actually teleported your target to you and then cleared the blind with the strike automatically, so they’re probably not changing that part of it. The other parts you’ve mentioned though are just going to make certain traits mandatory. It doesn’t help, and honestly we end up with a bunch of useless traitslots that can only be used by one weaponset, and even more specifically to you example, one specific weaponskill.

So? that was an example of how I imagine traits to be like to that all builds would benefit from it. You can take the blind out or you can take the damage out instead – or you can create a trait additionally to this as it would be rather weak for D/P anyway if they still kept their unblockable on theri SS.

That’s the problem though. Our trait trees would fill up with traits that help one weaponset or one weaponskill as you’re suggesting. Why? D/P is the model of a successfully designed weaponset and dual skill. Shadowshot does slightly too much damage, but the set is cohesive. We should be making suggestions on how to make the other sets just as cohesive so there are options available to us.

Maugetarr.6823:

Maugetarr.6823:

Uh, sure, but that would buff D/P with an unblockable headshot….. and herein lies the problem. The steps you want to take have a ripple effect boosting the already successful weaponsets. Let’s look at the common factor in all the underperforming sets, which happens to be offhand dagger, and make adjustments there.

Alright, so what do you think: we all should just play D/P and shut up?

No, I think we should increase the utility on offhand dagger so that S/D, D/D, and P/D are competitive sets on par with D/P.

Maugetarr.6823:

If you want to call it powercreep, that’s fine, but I’m talking about bringing an unterperforming weapon up to the same level as a currently functional one. That’s more like balancing it. Right now it’s underperfoming and sets that can’t cover the holes in utility are suffering for it. I already mentioned though that taking virtually all the damage out of shadowshot would not hurt the D/P set because the set is well designed. Offhand dagger is not well designed because it lacks utility and damage. It needs buffs.

Then why not take the damage out of SS and call it a day then, if it would not hurt it anyway as you said? That would be a skill worth nerfing, just as have been explained here multiple times already.

However the goal of this thread is not to nerf D/P to the ground, rather toned it down so that SS don’t deal more damage than CnD, then give CnD a utility, preferably blind, via trait (CiS) or innate ability. Personally I want ShadowStep with CnD, but it’s not about what I want.

Well we agree on this, however, this could also be considered powercreep to do this and rather not kitten in the design of thief based on your previous statement. Nerfing D/P is more akin to simply removing Preparedness and the CDR of SoH.

It’s not powercreep because it already exists, rather it allows for more diverse build collection.

Nerfing Shadowshot would be enough, no need to nerf it to the ground.

Which is really just going back to the root issue of lack of utility on OH dagger (and the associated dual skills).

Exactly. There are 2 issues being addressed here, 1) Nerf SS and 2) allow x/D easy access to blind. Simply giving x/D access to blind will not fix the problem, SS needs to be nerfed at the same time to balance the weapon sets.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Aidal.4901:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dancing_Dagger Ranged attack, it might be puny, but it’s ranged.

If you want false technicality there you go. But when it comes to meta the ranged aspect of the pistol offhand is completely overlooked by its usage as in utility. And Meta is the only thing that does/should matter since it revolves around choosing the superior choice.

Get out of here…now that’s just petty and silly.

There’s a big difference between a “ranged attack” and a “ranged weapon set”.

And Meta doesn’t matter because ArenaNet is not balancing based on the Meta. They said it themselves, they balanced based on all aspect of the game which include both PvP and WvW.

But I’ll bow out man.You win, I won’t argue. We done, and I won’t visit this thread again.

You don’t add anything constructive anyway.

He’s actually right lol.

You want to play D/D in today’s game then you all need to change your builds.

1st drop SA
2nd I incorporate as many gap closers as possible
3rd accept that the set isn’t what it was

There now stop trying to nerf something that is perfectly balanced with the rest of the game

Average Momo.8153:

Is it D/P as a weapon set that’s too powerful

“Please nerf D/P” sounds like it, doesn’kitten

Is it just D/P #3?

Yes as it’s the only distinctive D/P skill – but overall the synergy of all skills is what makes D/P extremely powerful and in case of most other thief sets: “OP”.

Is it the traits?

Also, yes as D/P itself is self sustained – it’s the weaponset that can chose any traits they like and still be viable.

It would be nice for discussion if we had some concrete points to address, because as the OP stands atm, it will lead nowhere.

I agree that the OP isn’t really worded that well, but we’ve got 5 pages of discussion right now, with different people who joined in, you could’ve saved yourself some time by reading the first page and realize that all your questions have been answered there already.

And with that: I already wrote everything, it’s on the first 2 pages max, the second last post I adressed to Maugetarr sums my opinion up pretty nicely – hopes that helps “her or him”.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

If you want to call it powercreep, that’s fine, but I’m talking about bringing an unterperforming weapon up to the same level as a currently functional one. That’s more like balancing it. Right now it’s underperfoming and sets that can’t cover the holes in utility are suffering for it. I already mentioned though that taking virtually all the damage out of shadowshot would not hurt the D/P set because the set is well designed. Offhand dagger is not well designed because it lacks utility and damage. It needs buffs.

Then why not take the damage out of SS and call it a day then, if it would not hurt it anyway as you said? That would be a skill worth nerfing, just as have been explained here multiple times already.

However the goal of this thread is not to nerf D/P to the ground, rather toned it down so that SS don’t deal more damage than CnD, then give CnD a utility, preferably blind, via trait (CiS) or innate ability. Personally I want ShadowStep with CnD, but it’s not about what I want.

Well we agree on this, however, this could also be considered powercreep to do this and rather not kitten in the design of thief based on your previous statement. Nerfing D/P is more akin to simply removing Preparedness and the CDR of SoH.

It’s not powercreep because it already exists, rather it allows for more diverse build collection.

Nerfing Shadowshot would be enough, no need to nerf it to the ground.

Which is really just going back to the root issue of lack of utility on OH dagger (and the associated dual skills).

Exactly. There are 2 issues being addressed here, 1) Nerf SS and 2) allow x/D easy access to blind. Simply giving x/D access to blind will not fix the problem, SS needs to be nerfed at the same time to balance the weapon sets.

Sure. Nerf shadowshot.

However, doing that and simply making CnD blind is not enough to help make D/D competitive. It still lacks good gap closers, any decent soft or hard cc, any condi removal. If your original intention was to only nerf shadowshot, you should have made that clear in the title or first post as we’ve had to go around and around on the fact that nerfing any other skills would have a larger effect than intended by the statement “Nerf D/P.”

@ Maugetarr: If you look at it all offhand weapons need help – we have at least 50% useless traits, why not redesign them? CiS is a trait I’m fine using it as long as it is in a traitline I can actually use – former SA suited my plystyle really well: There theoretically is a way to make most of this trait based – it has been in the past. Only set that never needed a specific traitline is/was D/P.

Azukas.1426:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Aidal.4901:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dancing_Dagger Ranged attack, it might be puny, but it’s ranged.

If you want false technicality there you go. But when it comes to meta the ranged aspect of the pistol offhand is completely overlooked by its usage as in utility. And Meta is the only thing that does/should matter since it revolves around choosing the superior choice.

Get out of here…now that’s just petty and silly.

There’s a big difference between a “ranged attack” and a “ranged weapon set”.

And Meta doesn’t matter because ArenaNet is not balancing based on the Meta. They said it themselves, they balanced based on all aspect of the game which include both PvP and WvW.

But I’ll bow out man.You win, I won’t argue. We done, and I won’t visit this thread again.

You don’t add anything constructive anyway.

He’s actually right lol.

Right about what?

You want to play D/D in today’s game then you all need to change your builds.

If I can’t play with D/D, then might as well delete it. If ArenaNet wants it to be an option, then make it viable. It’s really that simple.

1st drop SA
2nd I incorporate as many gap closers as possible
3rd accept that the set isn’t what it was

Delete it then, so we don’t have to talk about it.

There now stop trying to nerf something that is perfectly balanced with the rest of the game

For starter, SS dealing more damage than CnD is not balance since it doesn’t justify their cost and the difficulty of use.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

If you want to call it powercreep, that’s fine, but I’m talking about bringing an unterperforming weapon up to the same level as a currently functional one. That’s more like balancing it. Right now it’s underperfoming and sets that can’t cover the holes in utility are suffering for it. I already mentioned though that taking virtually all the damage out of shadowshot would not hurt the D/P set because the set is well designed. Offhand dagger is not well designed because it lacks utility and damage. It needs buffs.

Then why not take the damage out of SS and call it a day then, if it would not hurt it anyway as you said? That would be a skill worth nerfing, just as have been explained here multiple times already.

However the goal of this thread is not to nerf D/P to the ground, rather toned it down so that SS don’t deal more damage than CnD, then give CnD a utility, preferably blind, via trait (CiS) or innate ability. Personally I want ShadowStep with CnD, but it’s not about what I want.

Well we agree on this, however, this could also be considered powercreep to do this and rather not kitten in the design of thief based on your previous statement. Nerfing D/P is more akin to simply removing Preparedness and the CDR of SoH.

It’s not powercreep because it already exists, rather it allows for more diverse build collection.

Nerfing Shadowshot would be enough, no need to nerf it to the ground.

Which is really just going back to the root issue of lack of utility on OH dagger (and the associated dual skills).

Exactly. There are 2 issues being addressed here, 1) Nerf SS and 2) allow x/D easy access to blind. Simply giving x/D access to blind will not fix the problem, SS needs to be nerfed at the same time to balance the weapon sets.

Sure. Nerf shadowshot.

However, doing that and simply making CnD blind is not enough to help make D/D competitive. It still lacks good gap closers, any decent soft or hard cc, any condi removal.

That’s where the trait adjustments come into play. Each weapon set needs to be viable.

If your original intention was to only nerf shadowshot, you should have made that clear in the title or first post as we’ve had to go around and around on the fact that nerfing any other skills would have a larger effect than intended by the statement “Nerf D/P.”

I think “Nerf D/P” is accurate since the point of this thread is not just about SS.

Jana.6831:

Average Momo.8153:

Is it D/P as a weapon set that’s too powerful

“Please nerf D/P” sounds like it, doesn’kitten

Is it just D/P #3?

Yes as it’s the only distinctive D/P skill – but overall the synergy of all skills is what makes D/P extremely powerful and in case of most other thief sets: “OP”.

Is it the traits?

Also, yes as D/P itself is self sustained – it’s the weaponset that can chose any traits they like and still be viable.

It would be nice for discussion if we had some concrete points to address, because as the OP stands atm, it will lead nowhere.

I agree that the OP isn’t really worded that well, but we’ve got 5 pages of discussion right now, with different people who joined in, you could’ve saved yourself some time by reading the first page and realize that all your questions have been answered there already.

And with that: I already wrote everything, it’s on the first 2 pages max, the second last post I adressed to Maugetarr sums my opinion up pretty nicely – hopes that helps “her or him”.

There are so many repetitive posts in this thread I honestly couldn’t be bothered reading through the whole thing. And yes, I did read the first page, hence what I mentioned in my comment. I guess what I’m trying to say is there seem to be so many issues in this thread going on at once, I’m surprised you thought this could lead to a proper discussion.

I guess I don’t really follow how you go from D/P being an all-around solid set, which it is, to that meaning it’s OP. Shouldn’t every single set strive to be like D/P, with synergy between its skills? Shadow Shot may be slightly overtuned in the damage department, yes. I think the blind is needed for D/P thieves to be able to sustain in fights, otherwise we’d all be going back to the old 5>2>1>repeat [Edit: Come to think of it, the blind duration could be toned down by a few seconds]. Also I’m not sure if you’re aware of this but the only unblockable part of Shadow Shot is the projectile that shadowsteps you to the target — the actual attack can still be blocked. I believe someone already mentioned why that is the case. Other than that, I really don’t see too many issues with D/P — especially with regards to thief’s performance against other professions.

I do agree D/D needs work, but I’ve already addressed that in my previous post.

Jana.6831:

@ Maugetarr: If you look at it all offhand weapons need help – we have at least 50% useless traits, why not redesign them? CiS is a trait I’m fine using it as long as it is in a traitline I can actually use – former SA suited my plystyle really well: There theoretically is a way to make most of this trait based – it has been in the past. Only set that never needed a specific traitline is/was D/P.

That is shortsighted though as it locks specific weaponsets into specific lines. D/P has stood the test of time because builds we’re able to be when certain traitlines were messed up. Look at how dependent D/D is on shadowarts. The only D/D build that isn’t is signet burst. It only took a small trait rearrangement before D/D became largely not viable for you, however, D/P has survived multiple nerfs to traitlines because it is well designed and not trait dependent. The ideal goal would be to get weaponsets functional first, utilities second, and traits third.

Another example to help clear up what I mean. Look at how relatively weak venoms are. The problem is that to make venoms any good, you are locked into a specific build and traitline. Venoms should be good untraited, and traits should add a little boost on top, not the binary nature of UP/OP when untraited/traited respectively that we have now.

This is not news. This has literally been like this for more than a year. This post title is pure cancer though, I would consider changing it.

Maugetarr.6823:

It only took a small trait rearrangement before D/D became largely not viable for you, however, D/P has survived multiple nerfs to traitlines because it is well designed and not trait dependent. The ideal goal would be to get weaponsets functional first, utilities second, and traits third.

I think this is the main point for me. D/P and Staff have this strength, and I don’t think it necessarily makes them OP (individual skills are another matter). Weapon sets shouldn’t be dependant on traitlines, they should be amplified by them.

Maugetarr.6823:

Another example to help clear up what I mean. Look at how relatively weak venoms are. The problem is that to make venoms any good, you are locked into a specific build and traitline. Venoms should be good untraited, and traits should add a little boost on top, not the binary nature of UP/OP when untraited/traited respectively that we have now.

It has always been like that – the weapons we have have got distinctive skills – you could either take that away or modify the traits. I don’t really oppose giving CnD blind, but that would be more “into the same direction” as if there were different equally useful traits. And yes, that’s my point, that’s why I’m saying D/P should sacrifice some of the utility and get it back from traits.

And that is my point as well: Look how “OP” D/P is as all traits add to the already good utility.
I don’t know too much about venoms, I have never used them – but as far as I know they’re pretty strong, so maybe turning half of it into traits was to prevent them being “OP” but that didn’t happen with D/P.

Haptic Repulse.9437:

This is not news. This has literally been like this for more than a year. This post title is pure cancer though, I would consider changing it.

Alright informative insertion.
Would “D/P is pure cancer” be better?