So guys. I don’t know why you’re feeding into the delusions of a below average thief aka Jana. Just end thread and move on. This guy isn’t in any position to even suggest thief changes considering his skill level.
You wish =) Btw I’m a gal as stated in the first sentence of the OP.
One question though: Why does apperantly no one get that “Jana” is a female name – it baffles me. It usually takes people on my servers ages to get that I’m a “girl”.
And this is relevant how? It doesn’t change the fact that your mechanical skills as a thief is lacking. You’re more than welcome to spar with me on my dueling server so I can show you how mechanically inferior you are. Which then in turn will demonstrate that your opinion holds no worth in class balancing.
You do realize that if you beat her using her D/D build will only solidify the fact that D/D needs buff?
And if you beat her using D/P which will also solidify the fact that D/P needs a nerf?
You cannot possibly believe that the result of dueling will favor to the point you’re trying to make. That’s just dumb.
I main s/d. Enough said. Love how no one evens mentions sd
Are you sure no one?
And even with that weapon set, even if you use P/P, the result will still not favor you.
What? You got me confused now. Do you even English? What are we even talking about now? Do you even know what you’re talking about now? I think you got lost in your own delusions just now.
I’ve personally mentioned S/D, but never stick to it because it’s off-topic.
So let’s say you beat her using your S/D, what do you think it will prove? That you’re a better player or that D/D do suck and needs a buff?
If you lose to her D/D build, then S/D sucks and need a buff.
The result will only solidify the fact that any other weapon sets other than D/P needs a buff.
If you choose to use D/P instead, and won, then it solidify the fact that D/P needs nerf.
Now, which part of that you don’t comprehend?
Your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. Maybe you should re read my post again. I suggest you do so.
Your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. Maybe you should re read my post again. I suggest you do so.
Right. Is that the reason why you can’t answer a simple question on to what are you trying to prove?
Let’s suppose you won, then what? Did that prove anything?
Your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. Maybe you should re read my post again. I suggest you do so.
Right. Is that the reason why you can’t answer a simple question on to what are you trying to prove?
Let’s suppose you won, then what? Did that prove anything?
That if you lost to what you counter, you’re not mechanically qualified to even speak in this forum about dp nerf. You’re so focused on dp nerf that you have no idea what it’s like at its highest level of play. It has hard counters and you have to outplay average players on certain professions. You’re just kittening kittened to even remotely suggest nerfing dp
Your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. Maybe you should re read my post again. I suggest you do so.
Right. Is that the reason why you can’t answer a simple question on to what are you trying to prove?
Let’s suppose you won, then what? Did that prove anything?
That if you lost to what you counter, you’re not mechanically qualified to even speak in this forum about dp nerf. You’re so focused on dp nerf that you have no idea what it’s like at its highest level of play. It has hard counters and you have to outplay average players on certain professions. You’re just kittening kittened to even remotely suggest nerfing dp
Certainly the result of a duel will not support that since the purpose of this thread is to highlight the fact that D/P is over tuned while the rest of the weapon sets are not.
A lost of using D/D doesn’t conclude the player’s disqualification in requesting a D/P nerf, rather the opposite. The reason for the lost is a proof that D/D is in need of a buff.
A D/P lost will not make sense because it is an obvious superior weapon set, but the problem is, Jana is not a D/P user so to prove your point, you’ll have to challenge someone else who is proficient with D/P.
I am an S/D, D/D, and P/P user myself, so you can’t prove your point challenging me either because my lost will only prove that the sets I’m using sucks and need a buff — and your lost will prove that S/D needs a buff.
No result in the duel will prove your point.
But according to you, dp is easy and should be nerfed so it shouldn’t matter if you or Jana are “proficient” at it. Now see. You’re just contradicting yourself without realizing it. Are you saying you have to be good at dp for it to be strong? Hm? Think about that one for a bit. My job here is done. You’re just an idiot through and through. I won’t even acknowledge you anymore forum warrior.
But according to you, dp is easy and should be nerfed so it shouldn’t matter if you or Jana are “proficient” at it. Now see. You’re just contradicting yourself without realizing it. Are you saying you have to be good at dp for it to be strong? Hm? Think about that one for a bit. My job here is done. You’re just an idiot through and through. I won’t even acknowledge you anymore forum warrior.
That’s a blatant misconception. The purpose of the thread is when a proficient D/D user fight against a proficient D/P user, the D/P wins due to all the tools it received from past game updates compare to what D/D and other sets have lost and never compensated.
You have this delusion that is so far out on what’s being discussed here.
And you want to nerf dp solely on the dd vs dp thief matchup? …logic. Let’s not even factor in any other professions or whatever. Let’s be selfish based on the weaponset you’re so hell bent on using. Dd will lose vs anything period. Any profession, any build if they’re good at it. And you’re focused on gimping dp? Ok. You lost all credibility just now. Done talking to you for real. You want a dd buff not a dp nerf. Use your head Einstein.
(edited by Lettuce.2945)
And you want to nerf dp solely on the dd vs dp thief matchup? …logic. Let’s not even factor in any other professions or whatever. Let’s be selfish based on the weaponset you’re so hell bent on using. Dd will lose vs anything period. Any profession, any build if they’re good at it. And you’re focused on gimping dp? Ok. You lost all credibility just now. Done talking to you for real. You want a dd buff not a dp nerf. Use your head Einstein.
The fact remains clear regardless on what you think is going on here — and that fact is that your responses are based on a delusion so different than what’s being discussed.
The premise was very simple and you want to complicate it by adding non-related factors like “other professions or whatever”.
The premise was;
- Look at DD (and other sets).
- Look at D/P.
- Now look at which set gets the most benefit from the past updates followed by which set gets unnecessarily nerfed (P/P nerf losing Ricochet and BP nerf).
- Then discuss that with all the buffs that D/P have received that now it requires to be nerfed, then buff other sets to balance the gap between the sets. Feel free to agree/disagree.
It’s so simple, yet you want it to be complicated.
Leave D/P alone.
Buff D/D.
This will give you two options to play as.
You nerf D/P and D/D stays the same, you uninstall or reroll.
This isn’t science fellas.
And you want to nerf dp solely on the dd vs dp thief matchup? …logic. Let’s not even factor in any other professions or whatever. Let’s be selfish based on the weaponset you’re so hell bent on using. Dd will lose vs anything period. Any profession, any build if they’re good at it. And you’re focused on gimping dp? Ok. You lost all credibility just now. Done talking to you for real. You want a dd buff not a dp nerf. Use your head Einstein.
The fact remains clear regardless on what you think is going on here — and that fact is that your responses are based on a delusion so different than what’s being discussed.
The premise was very simple and you want to complicate it by adding non-related factors like “other professions or whatever”.
The premise was;
- Look at DD (and other sets).
- Look at D/P.
- Now look at which set gets the most benefit from the past updates followed by which set gets unnecessarily nerfed (P/P nerf losing Ricochet and BP nerf).
- Then discuss that with all the buffs that D/P have received that now it requires to be nerfed, then buff other sets to balance the gap between the sets. Feel free to agree/disagree.It’s so simple, yet you want it to be complicated.
Premise is in title of thread. Kkthxbai.
Sir Vincent: Yes, I know (baseline/minor) – problem is to create traits and to put them somewhere where all thieves have access to them. So basically; I’d rather have single traits again so people aren’t forced to take a for them useless second one which is merged with it. But I don’t think this really works with the 3 per bracket and then with everything put into traits. I’ll think about it some more.
Lettuce: My comment directed to you was about as relevant as yours to me and what Sir Vincent meant was if you duel me and lose, what does that prove? That D/D is fine or that I’m skilled? If I’m using D/P = that D/P is “OP” (in comparison to other sets) or that I’m skilled? = a duel has got no use. I can tell you I killed two D/P thieves today (in wvw) but the game is broken, so I don’t put that down to skill.
Spread Cheese: I came to the conclusion that the game is going to stay like it is for at least another year – no matter what I say here, how good I argue. So yes, I should either uninstall or reroll.
ETA: Because what anet have to do to bring thief, and probably all classes, back on track is to revert to the old trait system.
(edited by Jana.6831)
Sir Vincent: Yes, I know (baseline/minor) – problem is to create traits and to put them somewhere where all thieves have access to them. So basically; I’d rather have single traits again so people aren’t forced to take a for them useless second one which is merged with it. But I don’t think this really works with the 3 per bracket and then with everything put into traits. I’ll think about it some more.
Any traits that are weapon specific like Ankle Shot and Swindler’s should not be traits at all. If ArenaNet believes that Pistol and Sword users will take those, then they might as well make it part of the weapon than making them traits. Currently, those traits are simply taking up space. I use S/D and P/P and never spec’d for those traits.
Making it 3 traits limit is a big mistake IMO because they want to have weapon specific traits and by doing so it only leaves 2 other choices for non-sword builds, for example — and in some cases, no choice at all. Take DA adept major as another example, if I’m using P/P, I won’t take Dagger Mastery obviously and I don’t use traps…I guess might as well take Mug even though I won’t be using Steal that much since it is counterintuitive when using P/P.
Yes, I agree with you. The limitation they’ve put onto themselves is making the game more frustrating than fun just because they want to reduce the number of skills, traits, and builds they want to balance. To me that’s either laziness or they’re starting to lose passion on their game. Karl is but a tiny candle light in an endless space of darkness.
And you want to nerf dp solely on the dd vs dp thief matchup? …logic. Let’s not even factor in any other professions or whatever. Let’s be selfish based on the weaponset you’re so hell bent on using. Dd will lose vs anything period. Any profession, any build if they’re good at it. And you’re focused on gimping dp? Ok. You lost all credibility just now. Done talking to you for real. You want a dd buff not a dp nerf. Use your head Einstein.
The fact remains clear regardless on what you think is going on here — and that fact is that your responses are based on a delusion so different than what’s being discussed.
The premise was very simple and you want to complicate it by adding non-related factors like “other professions or whatever”.
The premise was;
- Look at DD (and other sets).
- Look at D/P.
- Now look at which set gets the most benefit from the past updates followed by which set gets unnecessarily nerfed (P/P nerf losing Ricochet and BP nerf).
- Then discuss that with all the buffs that D/P have received that now it requires to be nerfed, then buff other sets to balance the gap between the sets. Feel free to agree/disagree.It’s so simple, yet you want it to be complicated.
Premise is in title of thread. Kkthxbai.
That’s why you’re delusional. You’re one of those people who reads the headline of a news article and formed an opinion as if they’ve read the whole article even when they didn’t.
@ Sir Vincent :
Yeah, it’s no matter how you turn it; it will never work out.
I only heard about that the warrior warhorn skills have been deleted from the traits, so no one uses warhorn anymore = that set is dead. It’s not about “build diversity” in regards to people taking a build like 24422, it’s build restriction regarding weapons. And that has got to be laziness, it must’ve been clear when they merged the traits that certain weapons use the traits. So, you can put the most important traits back on weapons but still, due to the merge, people are forced to play a certain way. I can’t take the falling trait as a D/P thief if I’m serious (I can switch – but I can’t do that mid fight) – so I’m restricted in my playstyle (that trait can be really good).
What they’ve done with the sloppy handeling of the redesign is restricting their own game to only a handful of classes/builds and they created a massive powercreep due to all the passives now being availlable/merged in the traits. I don’t see how they’ll get out of this.
(edited by Jana.6831)
@ Sir Vincent :
Yeah, it’s no matter how you turn it; it will never work out.
I only heard about that the warrior warhorn skills have been deleted from the traits, so no one uses warhorn anymore = that set is dead. It’s not about “build diversity” in regards to people taking a build like 24422, it’s build restriction regarding weapons. And that has got to be laziness, it must’ve been clear when they merged the traits that certain weapons use the traits. So, you can put the most important traits back on weapons but still, due to the merge, people are forced to play a certain way. I can’t take the falling trait as a D/P thief if I’m serious (I can switch – but I can’t do that mid fight) – so I’m restricted in my playstyle (that trait can be really good).
What they’ve done with the sloppy handeling of the redesign is restricting their own game to only a handful of classes/builds and they created a massive powercreep due to all the passives now being availlable/merged in the traits. I don’t see how they’ll get out of this.
That’s why I agree that D/P needs to be nerfed and if that means that the trait they take needs to go away to make room for something more generic, then so be it. I mean they nerfed S/D hard before and buffed D/P so it’s not like it hasn’t been done before.
One solution they can start with is get rid of Hidden Thief and give stealth to Steal — just like the beta iteration of the skill. Give Thief a 15 Init max and a Steal CD of 20s. Add dazed to Bewildered Ambush and get rid of SoH. Just by these changes, it will open up at least 3 trait slots where they can add a more generic traits that any weapon set can use.
@ Sir Vincent :
Hidden thief would hamper with my playstyle – I usually CnD and steal – which I can’t really anymore anyway due to the passive invulnerabilities of other classes and due to a game change they made a year ago (Lunar Festival) – since then CnD misses more often than it hits – I don’t think they’ve noticed this, so I don’t think it’ll ever be changed.
I also don’t really need more initative. This would all again favour D/P. = It is really hard to balance classes in themselves and against other classes with the trait system as it is now.
@ Sir Vincent :
Hidden thief would hamper with my playstyle – I usually CnD and steal – which I can’t really anymore anyway due to the passive invulnerabilities of other classes and due to a game change they made a year ago (Lunar Festival) – since then CnD misses more often than it hits – I don’t think they’ve noticed this, so I don’t think it’ll ever be changed.
I also don’t really need more initative. This would all again favour D/P. = It is really hard to balance classes in themselves and against other classes with the trait system as it is now.
CnD+Steal will be a thing of the past if Steal also grants stealth. I also would like CnD to have shadowstep so it won’t have to rely on Steal to guarantee a hit and at the same time removing the long casting time.
The extra initiative will remove the necessity of taking Trickery since Trickery is all about tricks, I prefer to see more trickery from the trait line and not an initiative booster trait. If they decided that more initiative is not a good thing, then they can reduce the weapon skill’s total costs instead— either way it’s fine by me.
In my opinion, if ArenaNet stopped leashing the Thief by adding self-inflicted revealed for example, the profession will balance itself against other professions. Revealed should only exist on anti-stealth skills and not on stealth attacks. And to further balance the professions, soldier classes (i.e. Warrior, Revenant), for starter, are always revealed and cannot stealth. They have no business stealthing since they only making stealth more imbalance. Then limit the stealth mechanic to only 4 classes with access to stealth as of now — all other classes cannot stealth and always revealed — but that’s for another topic.
@ Sir Vincent :
If you get rid of CnD you also get rid of ~4k damage (in wvw) – more actually as the vulnerability also won’t be applied anymore.
The least line I mind is trickery: Swiftness on steal, extra damage per initative, reduced steal cooldown, SoH, reduced recharge for tricks – I use all of it = even if you make the one or other baseline I’d still take it.
I don’t know, the revealed makes us a bit more balanced against other classes as we can’t just spam backstab. I don’t mind self inflicted reveal, but I do mind forced reveal and I’m honestly annoyed by every other class having stealth – but thats a different and long topic.
But in the end: There’s currently so much wrong in this game that no matter whether they fix a, b still will be broken and then c, d, e…
Really quick point to throw out in regard to this thread. The only context I see considered in here is thief.
Thief has two pvp viable sets in my opinion. Staff and D/P. I’m not sure why people are isolating their thought process to nerfing D/P, because of it being a good thief set, when they aren’t considering the greater game as a whole, and the other professions and builds.
If you want thief to have a third viable set, then you pick one and buff it. You don’t risk taking a viable set out of viability by having your focus being on nerfing the viable set. Doing that leaves you with one viable set worst case.
In the current situation today, basic risk management in keeping a number of viable weapon sets obviously points to buffing offhand dagger over nerfing D/P and/or Staff. Those two sets are good, they work, they’re effective and that effectiveness changes in different situations, which is good.
The complaints of thief being at its core ineffectively broken and needing addressed, I disagree with. It comes across as rhetoric and insincere, as thief does fulfill the roles of damage and mobility well.
The complaints about buffing offhand dagger resulting in power creep are also unjustified. Buffing offhand dagger, doesn’t make D/P or Staff better. You aren’t raising the effectiveness of those builds. The only risk of power creep lies in X/D builds, which would only be a thing if an X/D weapon set became significantly better than D/P and Staff, which has nothing to do with the actual power of those two sets.
If people keep having this bubble they’re setting their mind in, and these people had the power to implement the changes they’re describing via straight nerfing a set, the result is that you only have 1 effective set anymore, and the set you wanted to be good still isn’t good anyways. Then super worse case they nerf the other good set, and then you have Thief compared to other professions, and there’s no reason to thief anymore, you should take a Revenant, because other professions have good weapon sets.
tl;dr
People aren’t thinking within the full context of the game
(edited by Shockwave.1230)
@ Sir Vincent :
If you get rid of CnD you also get rid of ~4k damage (in wvw) – more actually as the vulnerability also won’t be applied anymore.
Not CnD, just the CnD+Steal combo because I would like CnD to have a built in shadowstep.
The least line I mind is trickery: Swiftness on steal, extra damage per initative, reduced steal cooldown, SoH, reduced recharge for tricks – I use all of it = even if you make the one or other baseline I’d still take it.
Yes, but other builds don’t have to take it. I don’t take Trick in my build but I could use the extra init and the Steal CDR.
I don’t know, the revealed makes us a bit more balanced against other classes as we can’t just spam backstab. I don’t mind self inflicted reveal, but I do mind forced reveal and I’m honestly annoyed by every other class having stealth – but thats a different and long topic. But in the end: There’s currently so much wrong in this game that no matter whether they fix a, b still will be broken and then c, d, e…
The Revealed makes us crippled actually because if near-perma-stealth works for Engineer, Thief should have better.
Besides, it takes a skill to go in stealth before we can backstab, that in itself balances backstab. Right now backstab’s damage is pathetic compare to Vault. So even if backstab is somehow spammable, its damage is already balanced that it won’t be game breaking.
There is hope, IMO that’s Karl, so I’m sure they will figure this out sooner. Removing weapon specific traits is a good start.
D/D is the easiest weaponset to use mechanically of all the physical melee sets. The problem is anet has made thief’s effectiveness directly tied to mechanical difficulty of the set while the rest of the game’s classes do not abide by this rule.
Now before all the DD users in this thread come for blood let me clarify MECHANICALLY EASY. This is not mean easy to be effective, but says the total effectiveness drops significantly as skill level increases. This is how games are supposed to work btw.
Thank you
I disagree as the range is too short, the animation duration too long, players too mobile and the initative costs too high.
So yes, in a vacuum CnD is really easy.Once again you demonstrate the fine art of not comprehending what you’ve just read.
MECHANICAL SKILL
This is in reference to how many keystrokes are needed to play the weaponset. Also it delves into the land of hitting the correct button in response to what you are seeing.
I’m sorry but DD does not require much of that compared to the other sets. In fact I would put SP above DD in terms off mechanical skill.
Yes we all know DD has range issues….but kitten it’s a melee set.
So I’m curious as to which animation on DD is too long?
Alright, so I see – you refuse to get the point – thanks for proving it =)
Good to see you finally realize you have no argument.
@ Sir Vincent :
Ok, got it. I’m a bit multitasking right now – might take a bit here and there until I really get some points.
Extra initative because of P/P? The problem is that this would buff D/P yet again.
I want no other class to have stealth, actually – It’s so annoying to be stealthed by player x, then y, then z when you’re about to CnD. Also the only argument for revealed is the stealth of other classes and/but they aren’t build around stealth. I will never understand why they made these design choices.
I don’t think that either should be spammable. I guess pvp is a different field than wvw – but the damage in wvw is that high since June that playing that mode is no fun anymore. But yes, you have a point, due to the initative we can spam everything anyway and it makes no sense that vault hits harder than BS and is spammable.
Your reading comprehension needs a lot of work. Maybe you should re read my post again. I suggest you do so.
Right. Is that the reason why you can’t answer a simple question on to what are you trying to prove?
Let’s suppose you won, then what? Did that prove anything?
That if you lost to what you counter, you’re not mechanically qualified to even speak in this forum about dp nerf. You’re so focused on dp nerf that you have no idea what it’s like at its highest level of play. It has hard counters and you have to outplay average players on certain professions. You’re just kittening kittened to even remotely suggest nerfing dp
Certainly the result of a duel will not support that since the purpose of this thread is to highlight the fact that D/P is over tuned while the rest of the weapon sets are not.
A lost of using D/D doesn’t conclude the player’s disqualification in requesting a D/P nerf, rather the opposite. The reason for the lost is a proof that D/D is in need of a buff.
A D/P lost will not make sense because it is an obvious superior weapon set, but the problem is, Jana is not a D/P user so to prove your point, you’ll have to challenge someone else who is proficient with D/P.
I am an S/D, D/D, and P/P user myself, so you can’t prove your point challenging me either because my lost will only prove that the sets I’m using sucks and need a buff — and your lost will prove that S/D needs a buff.
No result in the duel will prove your point.
DP is not over tuned in regards to overall game balance. Is it better in certain situations than DD? Yes it is but that in norder way shape or form means it’s OP in the grand scheme of things.
I know its hard as for us (non thief mains) to admit we’ve just been out skilled by a better player who’s on a thief
@ Sir Vincent :
Ok, got it. I’m a bit multitasking right now – might take a bit here and there until I really get some points.Extra initative because of P/P? The problem is that this would buff D/P yet again.
The D/P build already takes Trickery so it will have no difference for them. It’s neither a buff or nerf, but it will be a good buff for other sets.
I want no other class to have stealth, actually – It’s so annoying to be stealthed by player x, then y, then z when you’re about to CnD. Also the only argument for revealed is the stealth of other classes and/but they aren’t build around stealth. I will never understand why they made these design choices.
Flavor-wise, it makes sense for Ranger, Mesmer and Engineer to have access to stealth, so I don’t really mind if they only allow these profession access to stealth other than the Thief. What I don’t like to see is Warrior or Revenant coming out of stealth — that makes no sense whatsoever. Stealth should also not have a party wide ability. This way, the stealth mechanic is exclusive to the professions where it makes sense and out of reach of professions who can be overpowered like Warrior and Revenant.
Mechanic-wise, Ranger and Engineer should only have a maximum of one skill that gives them stealth. Mesmer can have a max of 3 skills. Thief should be the master of all stealth.
I don’t think that either should be spammable. I guess pvp is a different field than wvw – but the damage in wvw is that high since June that playing that mode is no fun anymore. But yes, you have a point, due to the initative we can spam everything anyway and it makes no sense that vault hits harder than BS and is spammable.
Exactly. Thief should only have Revealed if an anti-stealth skill was used on them. Other than that, Thief should be free to use their mechanics unhindered.
@ Sir Vincent :
If they get the initative elsewhere they don’t have to trait in trickery as I guess this might be one of the main arguments they’re taking it.
I understand mesmer stealth and I like veil, also that all of us are stealthed (important in wvw) – but all trappers, mesmers and engis became stealth abusers and don’t have anything tied to it – so they should have it restricted by either very long cooldowns or.. traits so that they have to sacrifice stuff for being in stealth. Also I don’t want to be stealthed by random people in the worst possible moment and truth beingt told: most players don’t understand stealth.
The balance in this game is still really off, so it’s hard to tell whether or not heavies should always be revealed. Right now heavy classes are dealing way too much damage (again; speaking from a wvw point of view).
@ Sir Vincent :
If they get the initative elsewhere they don’t have to trait in trickery as I guess this might be one of the main arguments they’re taking it.
The extra initiative is just too good for D/P since it is also the cheapest total weapon skill cost. On top of that the CDR on Steal synergizes very well with Klepto for more initiatives.
I understand mesmer stealth and I like veil, also that all of us are stealthed (important in wvw) – but all trappers, mesmers and engis became stealth abusers and don’t have anything tied to it – so they should have it restricted by either very long cooldowns or.. traits so that they have to sacrifice stuff for being in stealth. Also I don’t want to be stealthed by random people in the worst possible moment and truth beingt told: most players don’t understand stealth.
Yeah, that’s one of the problem with party/group wide stealth. It would be balanced and more effective if stealth is limited to the user. Party/group stealth just cause too many problems.
The balance in this game is still really off, so it’s hard to tell whether or not heavies should always be revealed. Right now heavy classes are dealing way too much damage (again; speaking from a wvw point of view).
The thing is, they didn’t want Thief dealing so much damage from stealth, yet they allow heavies to gain stealth in any way. That in itself is what throws the balance out of whack.
This is not news. This has literally been like this for more than a year. This post title is pure cancer though, I would consider changing it.
Alright informative insertion.
Would “D/P is pure cancer” be better?
D/p is arguably the best all around set thief has and this is coming from somebody who almost exclusively runs s/d. If you want to talk about cancer, talk about the condi evade spam death blossom build.
D/D 3 is bad. God awful bad and needs to be changed etirely.
Dagger offhand 4 is pretty bad, it’s “ok” damage/cripple at range but provides little to no utility.
Dagger offhand 5 requires you to literally be inside your target to use it and is unreliable.
Dagger offhand is bad and the “dual wield” D/D skill(skill 3) doesn’t belong.
P/P is just an unfixable abomination.
P/D was good last time I played(I took like a 6 month break) in WVW only, but actually not fun to fight against and probably the easiest spec in the entire game to play. Would prefer it being completely revamped.
S/D’s 3 is really unfun for me to use. Dagger offhand 4 is again not that great and provides little to no utility. Dagger offhand 5 is again unreliable and too annoying to land.
S/P’s 3 is hard to use effectively in PVP.
Shortbow is great.
Dagger offhand just needs to be revamped/buffed or something. and d/d’s “dual wield” aka 3 needs to be replaced with something new entirely.
(edited by Shiyo.3578)
It is terribly pointless to ask for any nerf.
People who reply are actually playing thief and will defend their stuff…
You should seriously admit, nerfing D,P isn’t a solution at all cause it would end up nowhere.
On the other hand, making them lose this frustrating capability to Dire Snare anybody with this unspeakable basilic venom which is bypassing any block, since it is rewamped from UP to OP, should be the priority of Anet.
Or Shall we pray god to help us once we are stuck into their spiderweb ? Because any dodge try is pointless ?
Even if the decision is not for us to make, this is still Your mistake Anet to let them striking us without fearing any strike back.
You should seriously admit, nerfing D,P isn’t a solution at all cause it would end up nowhere.
When they nerfed S/D, it lead us to the rise of D/P. So nerfing D/P might lead us to more build diversity.
This is not news. This has literally been like this for more than a year. This post title is pure cancer though, I would consider changing it.
Alright informative insertion.
Would “D/P is pure cancer” be better?D/p is arguably the best all around set thief has and this is coming from somebody who almost exclusively runs s/d. If you want to talk about cancer, talk about the condi evade spam death blossom build.
Then let me ask more bluntly: What is your point?
You should seriously admit, nerfing D,P isn’t a solution at all cause it would end up nowhere.
When they nerfed S/D, it lead us to the rise of D/P. So nerfing D/P might lead us to more build diversity.
No buffs,to DP came when the SD nerf came. More people were using DP before the death of SD anyways
No buffs,to DP came when the SD nerf came.
Seems as if you finally got the point.
More people were using DP before the death of SD anyways
If you mean the nerf ~1,5 years ago, then no, more people were playing S/D – but I guess that was more because they were tired of D/P, not because S/D was better.
So, yes in this case, if D/P were nerfed significantly thief would likely be dead (except for staff) – if the nerfs came thoughtlessly and without compensation elsewhere – which is to be expected. If not though all that is and will be left is D/P (and staff).
No buffs,to DP came when the SD nerf came.
Seems as if you finally got the point.
More people were using DP before the death of SD anyways
If you mean the nerf ~1,5 years ago, then no, more people were playing S/D – but I guess that was more because they were tired of D/P, not because S/D was better.
So, yes in this case, if D/P were nerfed significantly thief would likely be dead (except for staff) – if the nerfs came thoughtlessly and without compensation elsewhere – which is to be expected. If not though all that is and will be left is D/P (and staff).
Thus my point wins out.
Nerfing a weaponset will not result in Anet buffing the one of your choice. Anet’s track record proves this over and over again. This is even apparent after the death of multiple sets SD PD and SP.
Thank you for proving my point
Thus my point wins out.
If your point is the point of this thread? :o
Nerfing a weaponset will not result in Anet buffing the one of your choice.
This was never about D/D – read OP.
Anet’s track record proves this over and over again. This is even apparent after the death of multiple sets SD PD and SP.
Thank you for proving my point
So your point is that anet don’t care about their game, or what was your point?
Thus my point wins out.
If your point is the point of this thread? :o
Nerfing a weaponset will not result in Anet buffing the one of your choice.
This was never about D/D – read OP.
Anet’s track record proves this over and over again. This is even apparent after the death of multiple sets SD PD and SP.
Thank you for proving my point
So your point is that anet don’t care about their game, or what was your point?
Taken from the post that began this farce of a thread:
" then lets nerf D/P so the other weapon sets have got a chance."
Please stop posting now and try and save some dignity
You should seriously admit, nerfing D,P isn’t a solution at all cause it would end up nowhere.
When they nerfed S/D, it lead us to the rise of D/P. So nerfing D/P might lead us to more build diversity.
No buffs,to DP came when the SD nerf came. More people were using DP before the death of SD anyways
I’m not in the mood to dig up some past update but here’s something to prove you wrong.
April 2013
- Shadow Shot skill: The projectile portion is now unblockable. (huge buff)
- FS/LS split
- FS 1st strike used to remove boon, now added to LS
- FS cost reduced to 3 from 4 (then back to 4 again in 2014)
December 2013
- Infiltrator Return nerfed
September Feature pack 2014
- Dagger Strike/Wild Strike/Lotus Strike now hits up to 2 targets.
- Flanking Strike: This skill now must successfully hit a target before giving the thief access to Larcenous Strike. Initiative cost has been increased to 4.
If I wast to cleave with my weapon, I have to swap to S/x. D/P was meant to be a single target set, but after this update, S/D is no longer needed since Dagger’s AA is faster than Sword AA. The recent AA update only further enlarge the gap between Sword and Dagger.
That’s all I can remember on top of my head and I know there were more. I know that LS was nerfed some time ago to only remove 1 boon instead of 2. FS used to deal 252+504 and some time after the split FS/LS only deal 252+365.
Even though D/P didn’t get a lot of buffs, the amount of nerfs to S/D was enough for players to abadon it and pick up D/P.
In a sense, I like the same thing to happen to D/P — just keep chopping its legs so other sets can also be picked up.
You should seriously admit, nerfing D,P isn’t a solution at all cause it would end up nowhere.
When they nerfed S/D, it lead us to the rise of D/P. So nerfing D/P might lead us to more build diversity.
No buffs,to DP came when the SD nerf came. More people were using DP before the death of SD anyways
I’m not in the mood to dig up some past update but here’s something to prove you wrong.
April 2013
- Shadow Shot skill: The projectile portion is now unblockable. (huge buff)
- FS/LS split
- FS 1st strike used to remove boon, now added to LS
- FS cost reduced to 3 from 4 (then back to 4 again in 2014)December 2013
- Infiltrator Return nerfedSeptember Feature pack 2014
- Dagger Strike/Wild Strike/Lotus Strike now hits up to 2 targets.
- Flanking Strike: This skill now must successfully hit a target before giving the thief access to Larcenous Strike. Initiative cost has been increased to 4.If I wast to cleave with my weapon, I have to swap to S/x. D/P was meant to be a single target set, but after this update, S/D is no longer needed since Dagger’s AA is faster than Sword AA. The recent AA update only further enlarge the gap between Sword and Dagger.
That’s all I can remember on top of my head and I know there were more. I know that LS was nerfed some time ago to only remove 1 boon instead of 2. FS used to deal 252+504 and some time after the split FS/LS only deal 252+365.
*Even though D/P didn’t get a lot of buffs, the amount of nerfs to S/D was enough for players to abadon it and pick up D/P.
In a sense, I like the same thing to happen to D/P — just keep chopping its legs so other sets can also be picked up*.
So in 04/2013 we saw a DP and SD buff. Separating FS/LS was a buff. Then 8 months later we see a SD nerf and a dagger MH buff 1 year later. This by no means shows that SD was nerfed and DP buffed. Sorry you’re wrong, but then your real feelings come out. I highlighted it for all to see….
You’re upset because anet took away your favorite ball. Instead of understanding that hey maybe my ball wasn’t fair you’ve taken up this self righteous crusade against DP.
Thank you for losing this discussion and illustrating the reason why everyone on this forum will now disregard anything you say from now on. Especially on the subject of thieves.
Again thank you and have a wonderful day.
You should seriously admit, nerfing D,P isn’t a solution at all cause it would end up nowhere.
When they nerfed S/D, it lead us to the rise of D/P. So nerfing D/P might lead us to more build diversity.
No buffs,to DP came when the SD nerf came. More people were using DP before the death of SD anyways
I’m not in the mood to dig up some past update but here’s something to prove you wrong.
April 2013
- Shadow Shot skill: The projectile portion is now unblockable. (huge buff)
- FS/LS split
- FS 1st strike used to remove boon, now added to LS
- FS cost reduced to 3 from 4 (then back to 4 again in 2014)December 2013
- Infiltrator Return nerfedSeptember Feature pack 2014
- Dagger Strike/Wild Strike/Lotus Strike now hits up to 2 targets.
- Flanking Strike: This skill now must successfully hit a target before giving the thief access to Larcenous Strike. Initiative cost has been increased to 4.If I wast to cleave with my weapon, I have to swap to S/x. D/P was meant to be a single target set, but after this update, S/D is no longer needed since Dagger’s AA is faster than Sword AA. The recent AA update only further enlarge the gap between Sword and Dagger.
That’s all I can remember on top of my head and I know there were more. I know that LS was nerfed some time ago to only remove 1 boon instead of 2. FS used to deal 252+504 and some time after the split FS/LS only deal 252+365.
*Even though D/P didn’t get a lot of buffs, the amount of nerfs to S/D was enough for players to abadon it and pick up D/P.
In a sense, I like the same thing to happen to D/P — just keep chopping its legs so other sets can also be picked up*.
So in 04/2013 we saw a DP and SD buff. Separating FS/LS was a buff. Then 8 months later we see a SD nerf and a dagger MH buff 1 year later. This by no means shows that SD was nerfed and DP buffed. Sorry you’re wrong, but then your real feelings come out. I highlighted it for all to see….
You’re upset because anet took away your favorite ball. Instead of understanding that hey maybe my ball wasn’t fair you’ve taken up this self righteous crusade against DP.
Thank you for losing this discussion and illustrating the reason why everyone on this forum will now disregard anything you say from now on. Especially on the subject of thieves.
Again thank you and have a wonderful day.
I just wanted to add that in addition to the split of FL>FL/LS (which was a buff), it originally removed only 1 boon IIRC, they buffed it to 2, then returned it to 1 and increased the cost overall by 1 initiative. That would have been fine still if it didn’t require the contact now (which was another nerf), but the should have reduced the cost by 1 again after requiring contact (specifically an unblocked/undodged/uninvulnerabled hit). Overally I agree with your assessment though. S/D has just ridden a roller coaster of buffs/nerfs. D/P and Staff are largely fine, the other sets should be brought up to their level.
You should seriously admit, nerfing D,P isn’t a solution at all cause it would end up nowhere.
When they nerfed S/D, it lead us to the rise of D/P. So nerfing D/P might lead us to more build diversity.
No buffs,to DP came when the SD nerf came. More people were using DP before the death of SD anyways
I’m not in the mood to dig up some past update but here’s something to prove you wrong.
April 2013
- Shadow Shot skill: The projectile portion is now unblockable. (huge buff)
- FS/LS split
- FS 1st strike used to remove boon, now added to LS
- FS cost reduced to 3 from 4 (then back to 4 again in 2014)December 2013
- Infiltrator Return nerfedSeptember Feature pack 2014
- Dagger Strike/Wild Strike/Lotus Strike now hits up to 2 targets.
- Flanking Strike: This skill now must successfully hit a target before giving the thief access to Larcenous Strike. Initiative cost has been increased to 4.If I wast to cleave with my weapon, I have to swap to S/x. D/P was meant to be a single target set, but after this update, S/D is no longer needed since Dagger’s AA is faster than Sword AA. The recent AA update only further enlarge the gap between Sword and Dagger.
That’s all I can remember on top of my head and I know there were more. I know that LS was nerfed some time ago to only remove 1 boon instead of 2. FS used to deal 252+504 and some time after the split FS/LS only deal 252+365.
*Even though D/P didn’t get a lot of buffs, the amount of nerfs to S/D was enough for players to abadon it and pick up D/P.
In a sense, I like the same thing to happen to D/P — just keep chopping its legs so other sets can also be picked up*.
So in 04/2013 we saw a DP and SD buff. Separating FS/LS was a buff. Then 8 months later we see a SD nerf and a dagger MH buff 1 year later. This by no means shows that SD was nerfed and DP buffed. Sorry you’re wrong, but then your real feelings come out. I highlighted it for all to see….
You’re upset because anet took away your favorite ball. Instead of understanding that hey maybe my ball wasn’t fair you’ve taken up this self righteous crusade against DP.
Thank you for losing this discussion and illustrating the reason why everyone on this forum will now disregard anything you say from now on. Especially on the subject of thieves.
Again thank you and have a wonderful day.
I just wanted to add that in addition to the split of FL>FL/LS (which was a buff), it originally removed only 1 boon IIRC, they buffed it to 2, then returned it to 1 and increased the cost overall by 1 initiative. That would have been fine still if it didn’t require the contact now (which was another nerf), but the should have reduced the cost by 1 again after requiring contact (specifically an unblocked/undodged/uninvulnerabled hit). Overally I agree with your assessment though. S/D has just ridden a roller coaster of buffs/nerfs. D/P and Staff are largely fine, the other sets should be brought up to their level.
Also people neglect all the DP nerfs over the years as well.
Im well aware of the SD changes (remember that they hard countered me) and just went with his biased statement since he already hung himself
Nerfing one build doesn’t make others better. It just makes them all bad.
Moar buffs plox.
Also people neglect all the DP nerfs over the years as well.
Im well aware of the SD changes (remember that they hard countered me) and just went with his biased statement since he already hung himself
Buffing other sets won’t go without nerfing D/P as currently a lot of traits are merged in a way that only D/P can profit from them. And you can’t take away that they have 2 shadowsteps with traits and weaposet, that it’s easier to play D/P than every other set.
If you make an OH dagger buff that lets you port to your enemy this utility is pretty much wasted for S/D thieves as they already have it on their set.
So: If you put more utility on the other weapons you won’t really satisfy the needs of each set and D/P will still be stronger.
Even if you buff S/D to what it has been D/P will be stronger, even if you buff D/D, D/P will be stronger, probably even P/D but that sets depends a lot on if condis are buffed – oh and on pistol buffs probably – I guess a faster autoattack would buff that set.
It doesn’t work without nerfing D/P in my opinion – especially since the traits are now a mess.
ETA: And the Dagger buff was in April ‘14. It did help me a lot, but I was mostly capping camps at that time – so PvE in WvW. It didn’t make that much difference against other players.
P/D became only viable when power was nerfed with the ferocity patch – the latest patch made us (D/X) more viable not because dagger AA was buffed but because other classes were nerfed.
ETA²: Yes I know that nerfing D/P alone wouldn’t buff other sets. I also know that anet doesn’t have much interest in thief. But I want them to realize that everybody and their mother plays D/P because it’s the only set left viable – and that not because the traits are that good but D/Ps utility. And since it has been the only set (for ~ 1 year) everything is tailored around it = every other set doesn’t have a chance.
I hope you get the point now. Kudos for at least trying to discuss instead of calling me stupid, btw.
(edited by Jana.6831)
Also people neglect all the DP nerfs over the years as well.
Im well aware of the SD changes (remember that they hard countered me) and just went with his biased statement since he already hung himself
Buffing other sets won’t go without nerfing D/P as currently a lot of traits are merged in a way that only D/P can profit from them. And you can’t take away that they have 2 shadowsteps with traits and weaposet, that it’s easier to play D/P than every other set.
If you make an OH dagger buff that lets you port to your enemy this utility is pretty much wasted for S/D thieves as they already have it on their set.
So: If you put more utility on the other weapons you won’t really satisfy the needs of each set and D/P will still be stronger.
Even if you buff S/D to what it has been D/P will be stronger, even if you buff D/D, D/P will be stronger, probably even P/D but that sets depends a lot on if condis are buffed – oh and on pistol buffs probably – I guess a faster autoattack would buff that set.
It doesn’t work without nerfing D/P in my opinion – especially since the traits are now a mess.
What traits in DA Trick or DD are catered towards DP? None.
Also people neglect all the DP nerfs over the years as well.
Im well aware of the SD changes (remember that they hard countered me) and just went with his biased statement since he already hung himself
Buffing other sets won’t go without nerfing D/P as currently a lot of traits are merged in a way that only D/P can profit from them. And you can’t take away that they have 2 shadowsteps with traits and weaposet, that it’s easier to play D/P than every other set.
If you make an OH dagger buff that lets you port to your enemy this utility is pretty much wasted for S/D thieves as they already have it on their set.
So: If you put more utility on the other weapons you won’t really satisfy the needs of each set and D/P will still be stronger.
Even if you buff S/D to what it has been D/P will be stronger, even if you buff D/D, D/P will be stronger, probably even P/D but that sets depends a lot on if condis are buffed – oh and on pistol buffs probably – I guess a faster autoattack would buff that set.
It doesn’t work without nerfing D/P in my opinion – especially since the traits are now a mess.
How do you know that with buffing the other sets, D/P will always be better? There’s no set buffs right now. We should keep giving ideas to make OH dagger on par with OH pistol, and hopefully they pick some of them up like they did the Bandit’s Defense and sword aftercast changes.
Azukas: “A lot” not “all”. And it’s not just about offense but also defense – which is what is the breaking point for a lot of builds (described in the OP if you’re confused what I mean).
Maugetarr: I do know that D/P will always be better because it has stealth on demand and shadowstep. Staff might currently be even better in theory, yes, but still thieves are squishy (more or less rightfully so) so being able to escape a situation will always be “better”.
Buffing OH dagger is complicated – S/D doesn’t need blind, doesn’t need shadowstep – so all buffs would be useless to them; it would likely be better if there were traits in according trait lines that let players chose what they want their offhand weapons to do.
I would like dancing dagger to become a scorpion wire and OH dagger blind and unblockable. But I’d be fine if I could chose other traits which lets OH dagger evade when hit and no blind but bleed (or whatever condi) (P/D) – I think I would like this a lot more than if everything was set, like on D/P – and I’d like D/P to be versatile as well – thus I proposed taking utility and putting it into traits – but like I said; we have too few traits to do that.
So all that is left right now is to buff OH dagger which would lead to a more lame game than it already is and still to D/P being more powerful as you can’t put all the utility D/P has onto OH dagger, and we still have the merged traits that don’t suit D/D or P/D.
Edit: Spelling
ETA: So in the end what I think the traitmerge brought wasn’t an easier but more complicated game to balance – If they intended to keep more than 2 weaponsets for each class. We could all roll scrapper and bash each other that would be just as “balanced” and exciting. Even if OH dagger were buffed or most important traits made baseline it would be the same situation: brainless conformed stuff.
I don’t object making traits that everybody takes when taking the line baseline though, like SE for SA or maybe mug for DA.
(edited by Jana.6831)
Avoiding answering doesn’t make the question go away. There are no traits geared towards DP only
Avoiding answering doesn’t make the question go away. There are no traits geared towards DP only
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Arts
Hidden thief which is now merged with fleet shadow which I don’t have access to as a D/D thief as HT hampers with my playstyle, SReJ – a D/D doesn’t “need” the ini regen, they “need” CiS.
I can go through all other lines if you want me to – SA happens to be the one I know the best.
And btw: I already answered by saying “read the OP” and I took hidden thief + fleet shadow as an example in the OP. I don’t know what’s wrong with you but you seem to be afraid to read long texts.
ETA: And I did go though all other lines. Most of the other stuff is better suited for S/D or staff (evades), probably also for condi spam D/D. And while reading I came across acro and DrD and really wondered if we can’t just delete acro and merge it with DrD – having two lines which essentially do the same stuff seems a bit stupid. But then no “vanilla” player would be able to play S/D anymore – but are they now? It doesn’t look too good though to block S/D for players without HoT or for those who are still leveling.
(edited by Jana.6831)
Avoiding answering doesn’t make the question go away. There are no traits geared towards DP only
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Arts
Hidden thief which is now merged with fleet shadow which I don’t have access to as a D/D thief as HT hampers with my playstyle, SReJ – a D/D doesn’t “need” the ini regen, they “need” CiS.I can go through all other lines if you want me to – SA happens to be the one I know the best.
And btw: I already answered by saying “read the OP” and I took hidden thief + fleet shadow as an example in the OP. I don’t know what’s wrong with you but you seem to be afraid to read long texts.
Before I pick this a part I’ll let you re read and edit it…..
Before I pick this a part I’ll let you re read and edit it…..
A wise thing to do when talking to me – but you could always go for some more f5s.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.