Guild Wars 2

VOLKON.1290:

Silas.8630:

VOLKON.1290:

Silas.8630:

VOLKON.1290:

Are you completely sure about that?

The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die.

Yes, I’m completely 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt proof positive that my opinion is that AC dmg to siege is too high, and Anet agrees.

DevonCarver.5370:
That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now.

ANet agrees… that it’s too high against other siege equipment. I don’t seem to see anything referring to it being too high against people however… do you? Did I miss that part? Dang these old eyes… Dang them straight to heck!

Why don’t you take those old eyes and go back through my post to find the part where I said AC dmg was too high against other players. (Hint: it’s not there.)

Well then what are you going on about? Looks like were more in agreement than not.

What I’m going on about is the AC damage dealt to siege, not players.

You’re the one who quoted my post and made a snarky, contradictory reply apparently without bothering to pay attention to my actual position.

Silas.8630:

You clearly lack the ability to extrapolate an argument. The reason people think the AC buff has ruined open field combat, is largely because it makes objective sieges take far too long due to the inability to use siege within range of the wall. This leads to sieges consisting of hours of standing around while trebs fire without any actual player-on-player combat. In short, the damage ACs are doing to siege is what led to protracted sieges without open field fighting.

So… if I’m reading this right… open field combat is ruined because sieges to structures takes too long now. I always thought open field combat took place in, oh I don’t know… open fields? I think the biggest part of the arguments being tossed about is a battle over semantics.

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

Let’s go back in time. Let us assume those medieval stories are all through about castles and knights. And I am talking about the romantizised ones.

Now, let us look at what many of you claim as what should be possible. Defending a tower with 10 players against a blob. Let us assume it is a big server and the blob counts 100 players.

Let us transfer these numbers to a medieval setting. We take a guard tower from a castle, we fill it with 10 people and give them weapons to defend (all the regular ones). Now we sent 100 knights with siege weapons. Do you think these 10 people should be able to fend off 100 knights in shinny armor? No, they should get slaughtered. Better luck next time getting more defenders our army says.

You see, a tower gives a 3/1 advantage. Meaning that you need 3 times the amount of people to take it. A keep/ castle takes 4-5/1. It makes no sens that you can defend against a blob unless you have a significant number of players yourself.

So don’t say the AC dmg buff was needed, it wasn’t. A zerg counter = 1/3 of the numbers of that zerg. It was even the case before the AC buff, 30 guildies could defeat a 100+ blob that was attacking their tower. All the numbers were fine.

Now this game became more cat-mouse than ever. You move from tower to tower in the hope to find an empty one. Build 4 superior rams and hope you get the gate down before 4-5 people get in. As soon some get in you leave and move to the next objective because it ain’t worth it to spend 3 hours+ to take that tower.

And I haven’t even said a word about how boring siege wars is, a lot more fun to bash a gate in with damage raining from all sides on you, you outheal it and be ready for the enemy to storm outside to fight you. And the epic battle that follows infront of the gate.

This is what we want and please develop your game in that direction or you will lose a mass of hardcore and skilled players.

VOLKON.1290:

Silas.8630:

You clearly lack the ability to extrapolate an argument. The reason people think the AC buff has ruined open field combat, is largely because it makes objective sieges take far too long due to the inability to use siege within range of the wall. This leads to sieges consisting of hours of standing around while trebs fire without any actual player-on-player combat. In short, the damage ACs are doing to siege is what led to protracted sieges without open field fighting.

So… if I’m reading this right… open field combat is ruined because sieges to structures takes too long now. I always thought open field combat took place in, oh I don’t know… open fields? I think the biggest part of the arguments being tossed about is a battle over semantics.

You’re reading it correctly, you’re just not thinking it all the way through.
It’s impossible to have an open field fight with an opponent who refuses to get off their AC and leave their tower. In order to force the open field engagement, the objective must be taken to force them into the open field. This process is now excruciatingly time consuming and frankly quite boring for both sides.

Hickeroar.9734:

Terrain, for instance, makes up about half of the Art of War. If it was as simple as FLANK FLANK FLANK, it would be one thing…but you’re suggesting a blanket tactic that is downright idiotic in the majority of cases.

…just not in this case. Flanking arrow carts in the field has been proven to be an effective (though not perfect) counter. It just works. Trying to argue with me that it won’t work when it already HAS worked is…well, you know.

Also, the idea Sun Tzu et al supports is that you never fight unless you absolutely have to, and then only when you know you’re going to win “without a doubt.” That’s a great thing in real life. It’s also a really really boring way to play a game.

That’s not entirely accurate, and besides it has nothing to do with “Flanking arrow carts will/won’t work”. But you know, penguins.

There are LOTS of things in the Art of War that can be applied to WvW when it comes to actually being in combat. If you want to follow all of it to a T, you’re going to end up with three zergs on the map, holed up in keeps and towers, making faces at each other.

TOTALLY agree there. That’s why you need a bit of Clausewitz as well, throw in some of Alexander the Great’s better ideas (I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion) and maybe the Great Khan’s wisdom (If you’re afraid, don’t do it. If you’re doing it, don’t be afraid!) and hell, why not my favorite Patton quote e-v-a-r because it is SO RELEVANT to this ridiculous noise surrounding Arrow Carts… (If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking).

Sun Tzu just happens to be very à propos when it comes to defensive philosophy.

Hickeroar.9734:

You should fix your statement to say simply “You can’t roll up to a gate with a force of any size and expect to use rams to take it.”

That’s just not true. I’ve seen several keeps/towers taken with rams since the patch. The difference now is that a determined group of defenders can make it a real pain if (big if) they are prepared.

We took down the inner and outer gates at Bay yesterday with rams, but it was tough. We had to resupply twice. We eventually lost the fight in the lord’s room, but the siege was a blast and took a lot of effort from both sides. Some people like that, some don’t.

I understand your points, I just don’t agree with them. Either way, it will all work itself out in the end (either because people adjust or because Anet changes AC damage/range).

This is what arrow cart arrows now feel like. They cause roughly the same amount of destruction!

Silas.8630:

VOLKON.1290:

Silas.8630:

You clearly lack the ability to extrapolate an argument. The reason people think the AC buff has ruined open field combat, is largely because it makes objective sieges take far too long due to the inability to use siege within range of the wall. This leads to sieges consisting of hours of standing around while trebs fire without any actual player-on-player combat. In short, the damage ACs are doing to siege is what led to protracted sieges without open field fighting.

So… if I’m reading this right… open field combat is ruined because sieges to structures takes too long now. I always thought open field combat took place in, oh I don’t know… open fields? I think the biggest part of the arguments being tossed about is a battle over semantics.

You’re reading it correctly, you’re just not thinking it all the way through.
It’s impossible to have an open field fight with an opponent who refuses to get off their AC and leave their tower. In order to force the open field engagement, the objective must be taken to force them into the open field. This process is now excruciatingly time consuming and frankly quite boring for both sides.

It almost sounds to me like you want an open field fight but can’t find it.

Because if it were boring for the both sides as you claim, the defenders wouldn’t refuse to get off their AC and leave the tower. They would in fact, leave the tower to have fun in the open field battle that you want.

Unless of course the defenders know they are outnumbered or that you are an organized guild that is superior in the open field.

It sounds like you cannot find the competition that you crave so you have to “force the open field engagment”. Resulting in an open field slaughter.

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I agree there’s a problem; 3 or 4 times already in this thread I’ve stated that my vote goes to making siege weapons invulnerable to AC fire (no more killing rams, catas, or even Golems with ACs) and rolling back the damage from its current 80% to 50%.

So most of the complaining in this tread is centered around the AC dmg dealt to siege,

WHAT??? HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

No it’s not. Most of the whining in this thread is about how ACs have ruined open field PvP and about how it’s now impossible to attack an objective without being slaughtered by overpowered arrow carts. I’ve seen some people kittening about how their rams and golems are being melted, but clearly not the majority.

The topic has shifted, but the two things that need to be addressed are 1) general (open field, etc) combat, and 2) the fact that putting up rams against a tower, or getting in a golem, are both nearly pointless now.

I really don’t even mind that ACs might kill players easier if they’re inside a tower shooting OUTward. But in the middle of a field? ACs have no place playing a big role in a field-fight. And having a ram wiped in seconds by ACs? That’s just stupid. At least if the ram was tough the players could rotate out….but as it stands there’s no point. You use a treb….and an arrow cart. Those are pretty much the only things that matter anymore.

I’m pretty confident ArenaNet will leave in the damage buff (maybe tone it down to 50%) against players, but make ACs useless against other siege weapons.

DevonCarver.5370:

WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies.

I hope this is a joke ? You try nothing on Alpha serv ? Or the ppl on Alpha serv are unable to assist with some AC ?….

Everyone see the epic fail of AC only by reading the changelog.. don’t try to tell us it was unpredictable….

Wothan.4673:

DevonCarver.5370:

WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies.

I hope this is a joke ? You try nothing on Alpha serv ? Or the ppl on Alpha serv are unable to assist with some AC ?….

Everyone see the epic fail of AC only by reading the changelog.. don’t try to tell us it was unpredictable….

Except that there are a lot of people who like it…

The arrowcart change has been amazing, I love it! It’s one of the best changes from the last patch.

Siege should scare the kitten out of you when it’s hitting you… The whole change promotes the use of arrows carts in open field more and it also counters the whole quick ninja towers/keeps a lot better. Large groups are forced to be more direct and effective now too.

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Johje Holan.4607:

Unless of course the defenders know they are outnumbered or that you are an organized guild that is superior in the open field.

It sounds like you cannot find the competition that you crave so you have to “force the open field engagment”. Resulting in an open field slaughter.

This seems to be the case, but I don’t really see what it has to do with the issue at hand. Just because my guild is better in open field combat doesn’t mean anything (we’re winning because we’re better at siege and defense as well, we just don’t find those aspects of the game as entertaining.) The point is that now we have to wade through 2 hours of boring siege to get a fair fight, while the other side doesn’t have to wade through 2 hours of fair fighting to hide in a tower with an arrow cart, which I guess is what they find fun. Personally I think they’re just as bored, but they’d rather be bored than get off the AC, wipe, and sacrifice the ppt.

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

As far as I can see, it are the most skilled and hardcore players that are complaining the most about these changes.

Tell me what is skilled about pressing 1/2/3 on an arrowcard.

Johje Holan.4607:

Except that there are a lot of people who like it…

I like it to when i’m on a AC vs Elona or Kodash rush ofc.. , generally when a class it OP, ppl playing this class say this is not the case

5 pll able to counter 80 easily with a little assist, more Zerg and a prime time totally static… woot… but effectively if you past the night on a AC there is no problem, only more bag..

Aeonblade.8709:

This is what arrow cart arrows now feel like. They cause roughly the same amount of destruction!

correction this is what arrowcarts feel like now

MiLkZz.4789:

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

As far as I can see, it are the most skilled and hardcore players that are complaining the most about these changes.

Tell me what is skilled about pressing 1/2/3 on an arrowcard.

Indeed… why put together complex multi-person defenses when you can just build an ac, push 1,2,3 and have it destroy all siege/players with the power of an orbital cannon regardless of your weapon/build/gear choices.

FractalChaos.6539:

I’m pretty confident ArenaNet will leave in the damage buff (maybe tone it down to 50%) against players, but make ACs useless against other siege weapons.

They admitted something was wrong with a flat 80% buff, and they’re doing something to fix it. Kinda makes it seem like our complaining was not without merit wouldn’t you say?

Hickeroar.9734:

Harrish.8743:

The AC changes force you to adopt new strategies. You can’t just roll your zerg up to the front gates now, drop a few sup rams, and expect to take a keep/tower. Give it some time and people will come up with new ways to deal with AC’s and things will be fine.

You should fix your statement to say simply “You can’t roll up to a gate with a force of any size and expect to use rams to take it.”

And you should fix your fix to read:

“You can’t roll up to a gate with a force of any size and expect to use rams to take it if you haven’t dealt with or given consideration to the ACs inside.”

With this buff, it brought to an end the tactic of the zerg rolling up the gate, dropping rams, and expecting that and that alone to be an automatic I WIN. Pre-patch, the meta evolved to make that one tactic alone trump all others with no counter short of the defenders having a zerg of equal or larger size. With the patch, it created a counter to that tactic; even for defenders who are grossly outnumbered with no hope of fielding a force large enough to counter the enemy zerg.

Dev Dev has now come out to clarify that arrow carts are the anti-personnel weapon. That’s their intended purpose; to kill massed numbers of enemy troops who don’t bother to move outside of the arrow cart’s AoE. That is their function and the increase in damage is completely appropriate given how inconsequential their damage was pre-patch.

That said, it’s also been made clear ArenaNet is considering reducing the Arrow Cart Mastery range buff to be closer to that of a ballista. But don’t rejoice too soon. Ballista range is 3,000 units. The buffed arrow cart range is 3,500 units. The default range of an arrow cart is 2,500 units. So, given these numbers, the decrease in the buffed range isn’t going to be that significant. Then, when you take into consideration the potential to increase the size of the AoE through the Arrow Cart Mastery line, this will bring an arrow cart close to being able to hit a target at 3,500 distance again.

It’s also been stated that a decrease in damage against other siege is being considered. For an anti-personnel weapon, this is completely appropriate and balanced. Even though it won’t melt your rams if/when such a change is implemented, it will still melt the ram operators, however. Again, working as intended as an anti-personnel weapon and forcing attackers to have to include counters to arrow carts into the equation when sieging a fortification.

What is clear is using only blob-and-stack tactics when besieging fortifications has now been countered. Attackers will have to come up with new tactics if they wish to capture a well-defended fortification with arrow carts present. This can be direct (figure out how to destroy the arrow carts prior to approaching the gate) or indirect (lure the defenders with a feint against one of their fortifications while another portion of the attacking force sieges a different objective in which there are no defenders present). In other words – when sieging – you’re going to have to add “over, under, around, and behind” to the single-minded approach of “through” if you wish to be successful.

I agree the pendulum swung into the OP zone where arrow carts are concerned. This was needed to bring an end to zerg wars. It appears to be working; at least on the server I play on and the servers we play against. Now the devs will begin the process of reining in the arrow carts with regards to their range in general as well as their damage against siege weapons in particular. However, they will continue to do their increased damage to players; as befits an anti-personnel weapon. They may decrease it some, but it won’t be going back to pre-patch levels; get used to it.

It all comes back to the same simple words of advice; don’t stand in the red circles, learn the ranges of the various siege weapons, learn proper siege placement, and build your siege weapons out of range of the arrow carts.

Johje Holan.4607:

Wothan.4673:

DevonCarver.5370:

WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies.

I hope this is a joke ? You try nothing on Alpha serv ? Or the ppl on Alpha serv are unable to assist with some AC ?….

Everyone see the epic fail of AC only by reading the changelog.. don’t try to tell us it was unpredictable….

Except that there are a lot of people who like it…

Yes I’m sure all 7 people who are ecstatic about sitting on a cart for 4 hours every night represent a lot of the people who play WvW. It’s the same 3 or 4 people from what I have seen in this thread. Every poll I have seen on fansites indicate it was an awful change.

No I’m serious, if this change stays 7 people WILL represent a lot in WvW! So I guess technically you would be right. Really there is nothing more to cover in this thread that hasn’t been covered 1800+ times already.

manbearpig.8095:

Aeonblade.8709:

This is what arrow cart arrows now feel like. They cause roughly the same amount of destruction!

correction this is what arrowcarts feel like now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgpQBZF2sZQ

Haha awesome. Love vids like this anyway.

months… Months?

Wait, did he say MONTHS?

This will not do! Trebs Vs ACs even for another week seems very pointless and terrible. A solution (rollback) needs to be implemented ASAP.

Have the developers even been playing WvW on the live servers?

Aberrant.6749:

MiLkZz.4789:

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

As far as I can see, it are the most skilled and hardcore players that are complaining the most about these changes.

Tell me what is skilled about pressing 1/2/3 on an arrowcard.

Indeed… why put together complex multi-person defenses when you can just build an ac, push 1,2,3 and have it destroy all siege/players with the power of an orbital cannon regardless of your weapon/build/gear choices.

sigh Hopeless.

A mass of squirming bodies, thousands and thousands of blind dredge all packed together tight in a cave, unable to move in any direction, stuck where they are, nattering at each other.

“Arrow carts are overpowered! Have you heard?”
“Overpowered? Really?”
“Yes, now you can use a single arrow cart to kill 5 people, easily!”
“Really?”
“YES!!! I’ve been hearing about it all day!!”
“Hearing about what?”
“Arrow carts are overpowered now!!!”
“They are???”
“Yes, one arrow cart can kill ten people, easily!!”
“ARROW CARTS ARE OVERPOWERED!! Stay away from arrow carts!!!”
“What?”
“Arrow carts are overpowered, you can kill 30 people with just 2 arrow carts in a tower.”
“Well that’s ridiculous, 10 of us just captured a tower- some repo job for Lord Dredgula- and it wasn’t anything like-”
“ARROW CARTS ARE OVERPOWERED!!! EVERYONE SAYS SO!!!!”
“WHAT WILL WE DO????”
timid voice in the background “Has anyone noticed that the enemy is still taking our stuff even if we defend it with arrow carts?”
“Everyone ignore that Dredge, he’s a troll.”
“Why am I a troll?”
“ARROW CARTS SHOOT TROLLS AT YOU NOW!!!”

Yeah. That’s this debate now.

hmm guess I have no toughness and full zerker for 1900 a tick yo
btw it was cut off for some reason (maybe because I prefer to play in windowed mode but obviously its at least 1,400.)

FractalChaos.6539:

Aberrant.6749:

MiLkZz.4789:

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

As far as I can see, it are the most skilled and hardcore players that are complaining the most about these changes.

Tell me what is skilled about pressing 1/2/3 on an arrowcard.

Indeed… why put together complex multi-person defenses when you can just build an ac, push 1,2,3 and have it destroy all siege/players with the power of an orbital cannon regardless of your weapon/build/gear choices.

sigh Hopeless.

A mass of squirming bodies, thousands and thousands of blind dredge all packed together tight in a cave, unable to move in any direction, stuck where they are, nattering at each other.

“Arrow carts are overpowered! Have you heard?”
“Overpowered? Really?”
“Yes, now you can use a single arrow cart to kill 5 people, easily!”
“Really?”
“YES!!! I’ve been hearing about it all day!!”
“Hearing about what?”
“Arrow carts are overpowered now!!!”
“They are???”
“Yes, one arrow cart can kill ten people, easily!!”
“ARROW CARTS ARE OVERPOWERED!! Stay away from arrow carts!!!”
“What?”
“Arrow carts are overpowered, you can kill 30 people with just 2 arrow carts in a tower.”
“Well that’s ridiculous, 10 of us just captured a tower- some repo job for Lord Dredgula- and it wasn’t anything like-”
“ARROW CARTS ARE OVERPOWERED!!! EVERYONE SAYS SO!!!!”
“WHAT WILL WE DO????”
timid voice in the background “Has anyone noticed that the enemy is still taking our stuff even if we defend it with arrow carts?”
“Everyone ignore that Dredge, he’s a troll.”
“Why am I a troll?”
“ARROW CARTS SHOOT TROLLS AT YOU NOW!!!”

Yeah. That’s this debate now.

What? Dude that made no sense.

FractalChaos.6539:

Aberrant.6749:

MiLkZz.4789:

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

As far as I can see, it are the most skilled and hardcore players that are complaining the most about these changes.

Tell me what is skilled about pressing 1/2/3 on an arrowcard.

Indeed… why put together complex multi-person defenses when you can just build an ac, push 1,2,3 and have it destroy all siege/players with the power of an orbital cannon regardless of your weapon/build/gear choices.

sigh Hopeless.

A mass of squirming bodies, thousands and thousands of blind dredge all packed together tight in a cave, unable to move in any direction, stuck where they are, nattering at each other.

“Arrow carts are overpowered! Have you heard?”
“Overpowered? Really?”
“Yes, now you can use a single arrow cart to kill 5 people, easily!”
“Really?”
“YES!!! I’ve been hearing about it all day!!”
“Hearing about what?”
“Arrow carts are overpowered now!!!”
“They are???”
“Yes, one arrow cart can kill ten people, easily!!”
“ARROW CARTS ARE OVERPOWERED!! Stay away from arrow carts!!!”
“What?”
“Arrow carts are overpowered, you can kill 30 people with just 2 arrow carts in a tower.”
“Well that’s ridiculous, 10 of us just captured a tower- some repo job for Lord Dredgula- and it wasn’t anything like-”
“ARROW CARTS ARE OVERPOWERED!!! EVERYONE SAYS SO!!!!”
“WHAT WILL WE DO????”
timid voice in the background “Has anyone noticed that the enemy is still taking our stuff even if we defend it with arrow carts?”
“Everyone ignore that Dredge, he’s a troll.”
“Why am I a troll?”
“ARROW CARTS SHOOT TROLLS AT YOU NOW!!!”

Yeah. That’s this debate now.

No, it’s much more like:

Player: Arrow carts are OP now.
FractalChaos: Arrow carts are fine, here’s a video showing how bad my server is.
Player: That video just shows how bad your server is, arrow carts are OP.
Dev: Yeah, arrow carts are a little OP, we’re looking into it.
Player: Thanks for looking into it Dev.
FractalChaos: I guess they were a little OP against siege, but I was still right though.
Player: …?

Urrid.4593:

months… Months?

Wait, did he say MONTHS?

This will not do! Trebs Vs ACs even for another week seems very pointless and terrible. A solution (rollback) needs to be implemented ASAP.

Have the developers even been playing WvW on the live servers?

ACs are being addressed in the next patch which is going through its testing phases right now.

Read Devon’s second post.

Aeonblade.8709:

Johje Holan.4607:

Wothan.4673:

DevonCarver.5370:

WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies.

I hope this is a joke ? You try nothing on Alpha serv ? Or the ppl on Alpha serv are unable to assist with some AC ?….

Everyone see the epic fail of AC only by reading the changelog.. don’t try to tell us it was unpredictable….

Except that there are a lot of people who like it…

Yes I’m sure all 7 people who are ecstatic about sitting on a cart for 4 hours every night represent a lot of the people who play WvW. It’s the same 3 or 4 people from what I have seen in this thread. Every poll I have seen on fansites indicate it was an awful change.

No I’m serious, if this change stays 7 people WILL represent a lot in WvW! So I guess technically you would be right. Really there is nothing more to cover in this thread that hasn’t been covered 1800+ times already.

Hmmm, seems to me like its the same few people who hate it. Different perspectives I guess…

And Devon already has said it won’t stay the way it is but it also won’t go back to the way it was. So we can both be happy.

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I’m pretty confident ArenaNet will leave in the damage buff (maybe tone it down to 50%) against players, but make ACs useless against other siege weapons.

They admitted something was wrong with a flat 80% buff, and they’re doing something to fix it. Kinda makes it seem like our complaining was not without merit wouldn’t you say?

Hmmm….

Nope. Re-read the whole thing; I see not a single word stating that there is something wrong with a flat 80% buff in damage. Could you highlight the relevant portion for me please? Specifically the part where he states they buffed arrow cart damage too much and are rolling it back?

Honestly? To me, Devon’s post reads pretty much like “We’re going to make it so Arrow Carts don’t hammer other siege weaponry so hard (and I personally would be fine with ACs not harming other siege weapons at all) but as for their ability to hurt you far more seriously than before…that’s what was originally intended. You have to learn to work around that.”

_Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there._

I rather they nerf the range and its ability to hit through gates than nerfing the damage.
Squishies should be squished

although I wouldn’t mind if they nerfed their damage against flame rams.

FractalChaos.6539:

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Of course skilled players are lacking.
You just have to see this thread.
All the players liking the buff don’t even had the skill to correctly use the prebuff AC.
You can’t find a better exemple of skill lacking.

Mortemp.6319:

hmm guess I have no toughness and full zerker for 1900 a tick yo
btw it was cut off for some reason (maybe because I prefer to play in windowed mode but obviously its at least 1,400.)

So you have 10,219 health and 1,400 toughness, and it’s arrow carts that are to blame for your lack of survivability?

Why does it not surprise me to see a VoTF tag in guildy gold in your screenshot.

FractalChaos.6539:

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

I’m pretty confident ArenaNet will leave in the damage buff (maybe tone it down to 50%) against players, but make ACs useless against other siege weapons.

They admitted something was wrong with a flat 80% buff, and they’re doing something to fix it. Kinda makes it seem like our complaining was not without merit wouldn’t you say?

Hmmm….

Nope. Re-read the whole thing; I see not a single word stating that there is something wrong with a flat 80% buff in damage. Could you highlight the relevant portion for me please? Specifically the part where he states they buffed arrow cart damage too much and are rolling it back?

Honestly? To me, Devon’s post reads pretty much like "We’re going to make it so Arrow Carts don’t hammer other siege weaponry so hard (and I personally would be fine with ACs not harming other siege weapons at all) but as for their ability to hurt you far more seriously than before…that’s what was originally intended. You have to learn to work around that."

_Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there._

I’m going to be perfectly honest with you here, I only read as far as the bold portion. If they admitted that ACs shouldn’t do as much damage to siege weapons, that is, by extension, an admission that a flat 80% buff was not the right course of action. If you honestly haven’t figured that how by now, nothing I can possibly say will improve your reading comprehension. I don’t need to find you anything because you found and quoted it yourself, you just didn’t read or understand what you quoted. No point trying to spoon feed you logic and certainly no point reading the rest of your drivel.

ACs should not being using ground targeting which is easily exploitable by the zoom hacks. Use the same mechanic as the trebuchets and catapolts.
ACs should adhere to line of sight constraints and not be able to shoot through stone walls, roofs, doors, etc.

Draygo.9473:

ACs are being addressed in the next patch which is going through its testing phases right now.

Read Devon’s second post.

Ah cool! Its a big thread. I don’t care if ACs are buffed but as they are buffed right now it will not do! That kitten is bananas.

If anything, Players auto attacking doors along with Golems need their effective damage reduced vs gates. There are plenty of ways to clear rams off of a gate even with the old ACs. If people want to OMGmega zerg a gate down, make it take 2-3 times as long without siege. That would give defenders plenty of time to punish them for their stupidity.

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

I rather they nerf the range and its ability to hit through gates than nerfing the damage.
Squishies should be squished

although I wouldn’t mind if they nerfed their damage against flame rams.

I think we still need some way to damage rams and golems (and zerg balls) thru gates. Catas already got nerfed, so that leaves only ACs. They just need to be toned back down some. If they could not hit “through” gates, we’d be going to the other extreme and gates would be too easy to breech.

Mif.3471:

Mortemp.6319:

hmm guess I have no toughness and full zerker for 1900 a tick yo
btw it was cut off for some reason (maybe because I prefer to play in windowed mode but obviously its at least 1,400.)

So you have 10,219 health and 1,400 toughness, and it’s arrow carts that are to blame for your lack of survivability?

Why does it not surprise me to see a VoTF tag in guildy gold in your screenshot.

Necros cannot possibly have that little health lol. Obviously if you look at the time of the damage and the current time of the game (right next to the minimap) its the same time, I.E. I just got out of combat.
Also if you had a clue about gear, you’d notice that I cannot have such low power and high condition damage without getting vit.

Psykoyul.9147:

FractalChaos.6539:

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Of course skilled players are lacking.
You just have to see this thread.
All the players liking the buff don’t even had the skill to correctly use the prebuff AC.
You can’t find a better exemple of skill lacking.

Build an AC open field. You. All by yourself.

I and one of my friends- just 2 people -will be…oh, let’s say range 4000 away from you.

Say go when ready.

Result? You’ll be here complaining that arrow carts are useless because you got killed by 2 “bads” even though you were manning a sup cart and have your 50 points in AC Mastery.

“That’s impossible. WHat happened?”

“Dood!! They split up and I could only shoot at one of them at a time, and THAT guy kept like…rolling around and moving and stuff. ACs suck.”

Overpowered indeed. snort

Mif.3471:

Mortemp.6319:

hmm guess I have no toughness and full zerker for 1900 a tick yo
btw it was cut off for some reason (maybe because I prefer to play in windowed mode but obviously its at least 1,400.)

So you have 10,219 health and 1,400 toughness, and it’s arrow carts that are to blame for your lack of survivability?

Why does it not surprise me to see a VoTF tag in guildy gold in your screenshot.

Priceless. =)

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

Interesting, thanks for your thinking, not at all surprising really, makes alot of sense.

What does surprise me is that you don’t appear to have done any “what if” thinking when introducing a single change in isolation that was meant to be a small piece of a planned sea of changes.

Honestly, if you had said 2 weeks ago on this forum, folks we are planning this vision for WvW siege and we are going to introduce this single AC change first, what do you think? most of us would have told you exactly what would happen and you would not have to do a quick rebalance now as you would have made the necessary tweaks before it hit this week.

Consult yout playerbase more, its clear they play alot more WvW than you do and can more accurately guage the implications of your changes.

Mortemp.6319:

I just got out of combat.

Point taken. I thought the health globe was being half shaded by the overlapping UI, but you are on half health. I figured you must have some awful blue toughness gear or something lol

Still don’t agree with you on ACs :P, but there’s no smoking gun to mock to your screenshot.

do you two really think that 10.2k is his max hp ?

Silas.8630:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aberrant.6749:

MiLkZz.4789:

thiagoperne.7340:

Maybe AC changes aren’t that OP, maybe skilled players are lacking.

As far as I can see, it are the most skilled and hardcore players that are complaining the most about these changes.

Tell me what is skilled about pressing 1/2/3 on an arrowcard.

Indeed… why put together complex multi-person defenses when you can just build an ac, push 1,2,3 and have it destroy all siege/players with the power of an orbital cannon regardless of your weapon/build/gear choices.

sigh Hopeless.

A mass of squirming bodies, thousands and thousands of blind dredge all packed together tight in a cave, unable to move in any direction, stuck where they are, nattering at each other.

“Arrow carts are overpowered! Have you heard?”
“Overpowered? Really?”
“Yes, now you can use a single arrow cart to kill 5 people, easily!”
“Really?”
“YES!!! I’ve been hearing about it all day!!”
“Hearing about what?”
“Arrow carts are overpowered now!!!”
“They are???”
“Yes, one arrow cart can kill ten people, easily!!”
“ARROW CARTS ARE OVERPOWERED!! Stay away from arrow carts!!!”
“What?”
“Arrow carts are overpowered, you can kill 30 people with just 2 arrow carts in a tower.”
“Well that’s ridiculous, 10 of us just captured a tower- some repo job for Lord Dredgula- and it wasn’t anything like-”
“ARROW CARTS ARE OVERPOWERED!!! EVERYONE SAYS SO!!!!”
“WHAT WILL WE DO????”
timid voice in the background “Has anyone noticed that the enemy is still taking our stuff even if we defend it with arrow carts?”
“Everyone ignore that Dredge, he’s a troll.”
“Why am I a troll?”
“ARROW CARTS SHOOT TROLLS AT YOU NOW!!!”

Yeah. That’s this debate now.

No, it’s much more like:

Player: Arrow carts are OP now.
FractalChaos: Arrow carts are fine, here’s a video showing how bad my server is.
Player: That video just shows how bad your server is, arrow carts are OP.
Dev: Yeah, arrow carts are little OP, we’re looking into it.
Player: Thanks for looking into it Dev.
FractalChaos: I guess they were a little OP against siege, but I was still right though.
Player: …?

^ Indeed

Just because baddies can’t use things properly doesn’t mean that it’s balanced and isn’t OP. In another post he asks some one to build an open field superior ac solo… aka not using an ac properly.

When AC’s are used properly they shred far too much far to quickly.

The devs agree.

He just keep going on and on feeling he was right that they aren’t too strong.

/shrug

Mortemp.6319:

Also if you had a clue about gear, you’d notice that I cannot have such low power and high condition damage without getting vit.

You’ve obviously never heard of rabid gear.

FractalChaos.6539:

Mif.3471:

Mortemp.6319:

hmm guess I have no toughness and full zerker for 1900 a tick yo
btw it was cut off for some reason (maybe because I prefer to play in windowed mode but obviously its at least 1,400.)

So you have 10,219 health and 1,400 toughness, and it’s arrow carts that are to blame for your lack of survivability?

Why does it not surprise me to see a VoTF tag in guildy gold in your screenshot.

Priceless. =)

He’s a necromancer with at least 20k HP. The 10k HP you see is because his health has been shredded by arrow carts.

The change to AC are just bad to much damage for 1 ac and to much range. I could understand them needing a little boost to what they were before but this was overkill.

People were talking about how this might be better for newer players… I dont see how its not more fun to die now from an unknown location. Arrow carts have such a range right now its hard to find them some times.

Lance.5892:

If arenanet really would like to make wvw a siege wars type of game, I have no personal issues with it.

But if they want the pvp community to stay, theyre going to have to give us somewhere else to do our larger battles. 10v10 or 5v5 in spvp is not what we are here for.

As much as it terrifies me to say, I actually agree with you.

I think the base of this AC issue, that no one has really bothered to talk about at any depth, is there seems to be a disconnect in the WvW playerbase as to what they want.

Personally, when I think WvW, I think fighting with siege and fist, and hour long fights over towers.

Others clearly view PvP as the base of WvW, that siege shouldn’t have any power in determining battles, and that towers should be a reward for PvP battles won.

The challenge will be if ArenaNet can cater to both players types inside the WvW framework, or if they will need to give the later mentioned types a different outlet for their playstyle.

Mif.3471:

Mortemp.6319:

Also if you had a clue about gear, you’d notice that I cannot have such low power and high condition damage without getting vit.

You’ve obviously never heard of rabid gear.

why, as a necromancer would I use full rabid when death shroud scales better with vit? btw the trinkets are rabid but again jumping the gun before thinking…