Guild Wars 2

Daecollo.9578:

Ranger Pet’s and NPCs can now track stealth thieves, we did get a nerf.

I havn’t seen this yet. Proof?

jkctmc.8754:

Daecollo.9578:

Ranger Pet’s and NPCs can now track stealth thieves, we did get a nerf.

I havn’t seen this yet. Proof?

To clarify, the rangers pets are treated like NPC’s, so they will attack the thief, then when he hits stealth they will lose him, but their aggro table didn’t get reset so when he comes out of stealth, they will go back to attacking him if he is still at the top of the pets aggro table. Keep in mind, the ranger pet will not be affected by culling, so the moment the thief should be visible again, the pet will go back to work (so go attack the culled thief your pet is attacking).

I used to think thieves in WvW where a nightmare but after fighting them enough times they are just like the next opponent you might meet. Yes they stealth a lot, But they are still there…keep moving, don’t give them the opportunity to backstab. If they iHouse just aoe the area or keep moving until they reveal.

If I lose to a thief they where just a better fighter at the time.

Stealth doesn’t need a nerf, Culling/Rendering needs to be fixed.

I’m a thief, a good one at that. I constantly have new thieves asking me for advice on builds for WvW. That being said, bunker builds aren’t killable for me. Obviously I can get away because I don’t know of a single bunker build that can burst down all my health while I’m stealthing and healing and stunning and rolling. But I can’t kill them. Not the bunker ranger, not the toughness gs warriors, and definitely not the bunker guardian. It really is a L2P thing.

Mysteries.3659:

I’m a thief, a good one at that. I constantly have new thieves asking me for advice on builds for WvW. That being said, bunker builds aren’t killable for me. Obviously I can get away because I don’t know of a single bunker build that can burst down all my health while I’m stealthing and healing and stunning and rolling. But I can’t kill them. Not the bunker ranger, not the toughness gs warriors, and definitely not the bunker guardian. It really is a L2P thing.

So you cannot kill a bunker warrior, ranger or guardian. But they cannot kill you either.

As the fight drags along it is likely one of you gets allies helping. If he gets allies, you escape the fight. If you get allies, he dies.

And what about all the other builds and professions? Would their LP2 thing equal to deleting their character and creating a bunker guardian instead?

Its stupid design I hope everyone agrees on that. Unfortunately the scale of changes required to fix it is beyond what we can expect.

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Also, if you want to talk about balance, please really considering spvping and THEN complain about stealth. As far as I know, CULLING is the issue, which can be procced by huge zergs, mesmers, etc, not just thieves. It’s really childish to blame your problems on one class when it’s caused by more than one thing. If you can show me a pvp match where you are getting murdered in pvp, I’ll believe stealth is a problem then. But last I checked, they aren’t making the top 3 list in pvp.

It must really suck that you suck at playing the Thief. They do not need stealth. I run more stealth on my Mesmer, than I do my Thief now. With our Shortbow teleport, and the Sword “2” teleport you should hardly ever die in a PvP fight.

I wish people would really get good with Thieves. There are so many bad ones out there, it isn’t funny.

Lol, way to call me out when I wasn’t even being negative towards you—I just disagree with the stuff claimed in this thread due to my expereiences. But yes, let’s call my thief bad. Too bad there’s not 1v1s because I’d like to prove a point as opposed to thinking I know what’s up. -_-

Also I dare you to make a pvp post about the thief being one of the best in pvp in the spvp forums. And if the response is in your favor, I’ll give you that.

Heck, why are you even arguing with me, I’m trying to say stealth doesn’t make the thief OP. And you are telling me the thief doesn’t need stealth to be good. Are we not on the same page?

This is the WvW forums, NOT the nerfed, and dumbed down state sPvP is. Why would you even bring up the boring aspect of sPvP, in the WvW forums?

You act as if you know what WvW is about—which obviously you don’t. I said if you really want to say a class is OP, play in sPvP where the class actually matters—not where the equipment, food buffs, culling, huge maps, etc come into play.

No matter how much you want to make WvW a balanced pvp-zone, it’s not going to be unless Anet puts a lvl req on WvW and an equipment req. And frankly, a lot of people in WvW do not know how to fight as mentioned by some others. Most of them really suck at fighting and kudos to you for owning them.

Seriously guys, L2P. and for you jkctmc, get over yourself.

Mysteries.3659:

I’m a thief, a good one at that. I constantly have new thieves asking me for advice on builds for WvW. That being said, bunker builds aren’t killable for me. Obviously I can get away because I don’t know of a single bunker build that can burst down all my health while I’m stealthing and healing and stunning and rolling. But I can’t kill them. Not the bunker ranger, not the toughness gs warriors, and definitely not the bunker guardian. It really is a L2P thing.

Sounds to me it’s a “roll a bunker, or else” thing : P

Not that I dislike playing a bunker, but that’s not L2P, IMO.

Korgov.7645:

Mysteries.3659:

I’m a thief, a good one at that. I constantly have new thieves asking me for advice on builds for WvW. That being said, bunker builds aren’t killable for me. Obviously I can get away because I don’t know of a single bunker build that can burst down all my health while I’m stealthing and healing and stunning and rolling. But I can’t kill them. Not the bunker ranger, not the toughness gs warriors, and definitely not the bunker guardian. It really is a L2P thing.

So you cannot kill a bunker warrior, ranger or guardian. But they cannot kill you either.

As the fight drags along it is likely one of you gets allies helping. If he gets allies, you escape the fight. If you get allies, he dies.

And what about all the other builds and professions? Would their LP2 thing equal to deleting their character and creating a bunker guardian instead?

Learn how to WvW right. If you are taking a camp, and he runs. take the camp. Force the guy to get his friends and retake the camp wasting zerg time while you get allies and get a new camp or keep. A real WvWer isn’t going to stand there and wait for the thief to come back. Learn to WvW or quit wasting queue space for petty fights.

Colly.4073:

I used to think thieves in WvW where a nightmare but after fighting them enough times they are just like the next opponent you might meet. Yes they stealth a lot, But they are still there…keep moving, don’t give them the opportunity to backstab. If they iHouse just aoe the area or keep moving until they reveal.

If I lose to a thief they where just a better fighter at the time.

Stealth doesn’t need a nerf, Culling/Rendering needs to be fixed.

I was losing hope there for awhile, but it seems logic does exist here.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Also, if you want to talk about balance, please really considering spvping and THEN complain about stealth. As far as I know, CULLING is the issue, which can be procced by huge zergs, mesmers, etc, not just thieves. It’s really childish to blame your problems on one class when it’s caused by more than one thing. If you can show me a pvp match where you are getting murdered in pvp, I’ll believe stealth is a problem then. But last I checked, they aren’t making the top 3 list in pvp.

It must really suck that you suck at playing the Thief. They do not need stealth. I run more stealth on my Mesmer, than I do my Thief now. With our Shortbow teleport, and the Sword “2” teleport you should hardly ever die in a PvP fight.

I wish people would really get good with Thieves. There are so many bad ones out there, it isn’t funny.

Lol, way to call me out when I wasn’t even being negative towards you—I just disagree with the stuff claimed in this thread due to my expereiences. But yes, let’s call my thief bad. Too bad there’s not 1v1s because I’d like to prove a point as opposed to thinking I know what’s up. -_-

Also I dare you to make a pvp post about the thief being one of the best in pvp in the spvp forums. And if the response is in your favor, I’ll give you that.

Heck, why are you even arguing with me, I’m trying to say stealth doesn’t make the thief OP. And you are telling me the thief doesn’t need stealth to be good. Are we not on the same page?

This is the WvW forums, NOT the nerfed, and dumbed down state sPvP is. Why would you even bring up the boring aspect of sPvP, in the WvW forums?

You act as if you know what WvW is about—which obviously you don’t. I said if you really want to say a class is OP, play in sPvP where the class actually matters—not where the equipment, food buffs, culling, huge maps, etc come into play.

No matter how much you want to make WvW a balanced pvp-zone, it’s not going to be unless Anet puts a lvl req on WvW and an equipment req. And frankly, a lot of people in WvW do not know how to fight as mentioned by some others. Most of them really suck at fighting and kudos to you for owning them.

Seriously guys, L2P. and for you jkctmc, get over yourself.

I have never, nor will I ever say any class is OP, in any game. Learn to read.

All I’m saying is this. If you’re dying as a Thief, enough that you believe other classes don’t need some kind of buff, you need to learn how to play. I have to be both tired, and drunk to die on my Thief, even then, I rarely ever die.

Quit bringing up sPvP in a WvW forums. No one cares about that carebear system.

slingblade.1437:

Sounds to me it’s a “roll a bunker, or else” thing : P

Not that I dislike playing a bunker, but that’s not L2P, IMO.

You don’t have to roll a bunker, but it’s definitely a good suggestion for people struggling.

I see plenty of good GC out there, but in WvW you have to be on your toes the whole time or you’ll be eating dirt a lot.

jportell.2197:

sostronk.8167:

What Im confused about is how this thread is supposed to be about stealth in WvW and how it came to purely focus on the thief. The thing is I think Veil is the most OP stealth ability in the game.

Veil has a 90 second cd with a 4 second stealth duration… 5 second if the Mesmer traits for it even then it only affects him… Most mesmers only use it at the request of their party members because the cooldown is obscenely long for a slot skill and the utility is minimal at best when compared to nullfield/feedback… You are also forgetting engi’s can do the same thing as veil when they toss an elixir… and Rangers can hide in plain sight… The difference here is the skills are not spammable and the players get no ADDED benefit of being in stealth other than hey you can’t see me… No extra damage in their attacks no condition removal from being stealthed nothing like that… Thief gets most perks and spammable stealth in game which makes sense to a degree but they need to take out some of the perks of stealth that are specific to a thief class. That is why they get griped about the most… Sure veil and the toss elixir are great… but nowhere near as potent as thief stealth skills.

Your obviously very inexperienced in WvW. Please talk to me when you are experienced and know what your talking about.

Xsorus.2507:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

@oZii, he makes a great point in what I was trying to tell these very oblvious people.

The game type we are talking about is capture the point—I am pretty sure Anet knew what they were doing when they made stealth and available feature in this game type. Stealth means you can get away it doesn’t make you impossible to kill—especially if you are in a zerg or decent group. Do you really expect to go to war in the open battlefield and not get sniped? Or let alone (fantasy-wise) get assassinated? Run in a group, capture points.

Stealth has very little to no affect in gaining major points for WvW. And that’s why it’s not imbalanced in WvW. Balance should only be necessary if it actually affects winning or losing the game guys. -_- But a stealthed thief annoying a group and killing one or two guys doesn’t give you more points than a small group holding off a thief while killing a camp veteran.

And also I’m surprised no one is manning up to ask what they can do to which they cannot see. Because there are ways to live against these unseeable things and prevent them from recloaking.

His point is silly, Class Balance is needed in PvP, even if its just for “points”

I could of easily called for reinforcements for an already out gunned side to get screwed over..

We have over 80k points over that team already…

Obviously its not this guy gets it.

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Also, if you want to talk about balance, please really considering spvping and THEN complain about stealth. As far as I know, CULLING is the issue, which can be procced by huge zergs, mesmers, etc, not just thieves. It’s really childish to blame your problems on one class when it’s caused by more than one thing. If you can show me a pvp match where you are getting murdered in pvp, I’ll believe stealth is a problem then. But last I checked, they aren’t making the top 3 list in pvp.

It must really suck that you suck at playing the Thief. They do not need stealth. I run more stealth on my Mesmer, than I do my Thief now. With our Shortbow teleport, and the Sword “2” teleport you should hardly ever die in a PvP fight.

I wish people would really get good with Thieves. There are so many bad ones out there, it isn’t funny.

Lol, way to call me out when I wasn’t even being negative towards you—I just disagree with the stuff claimed in this thread due to my expereiences. But yes, let’s call my thief bad. Too bad there’s not 1v1s because I’d like to prove a point as opposed to thinking I know what’s up. -_-

Also I dare you to make a pvp post about the thief being one of the best in pvp in the spvp forums. And if the response is in your favor, I’ll give you that.

Heck, why are you even arguing with me, I’m trying to say stealth doesn’t make the thief OP. And you are telling me the thief doesn’t need stealth to be good. Are we not on the same page?

This is the WvW forums, NOT the nerfed, and dumbed down state sPvP is. Why would you even bring up the boring aspect of sPvP, in the WvW forums?

You act as if you know what WvW is about—which obviously you don’t. I said if you really want to say a class is OP, play in sPvP where the class actually matters—not where the equipment, food buffs, culling, huge maps, etc come into play.

No matter how much you want to make WvW a balanced pvp-zone, it’s not going to be unless Anet puts a lvl req on WvW and an equipment req. And frankly, a lot of people in WvW do not know how to fight as mentioned by some others. Most of them really suck at fighting and kudos to you for owning them.

Seriously guys, L2P. and for you jkctmc, get over yourself.

I have never, nor will I ever say any class is OP, in any game. Learn to read.

All I’m saying is this. If you’re dying as a Thief, enough that you believe other classes don’t need some kind of buff, you need to learn how to play. I have to be both tired, and drunk to die on my Thief, even then, I rarely ever die.

Quit bringing up sPvP in a WvW forums. No one cares about that carebear system.

Why would other classes need a buff and not the thief, if the class wasn’t OP? Why is thief not OP if you can literally wreck anyone unless you are tired or drunk? Are you sure you aren’t inebriated currently? And way to ignore my other points.

Don’t talk about class balancing when you are playing a game field that isn’t balanced. sPvP does it a lot better than WvW (newsflash). And regardless if you hate sPvP or not, the way it sets up armor/equipment/stats is more equal than WvW will ever be. If you really want to know which class needs a buff you need to play them on an equal playing field. I’ll take buffs any day just for the sake of buffs, but not because Thief is at a better state than any other class (because it’s not)

A server of many really good thieves can still not stop a good WvW servers from stomping points and winning. What part of that do you not understand. Quit bringing deathmatches into WvW forum. This is about capturing points, learn to play that game first.

Archer.1658:

iCryptik.1496:

jkctmc.8754:

iCryptik.1496:

All the videos I see posted are people posting vids on some of the most skilled thiefs out there, or posting vids of them losing to thiefs, when they are using a build that may be the weakest to fight a thief.

tl;dr – Different builds fair better against thiefs than other builds. If your constantly losing to a thief, rethink your build and use a different one. Or die, and deal with it.

Funny that huh. Xsorus posted a video of himself, on his thief.

I don’t get what’s “funny” about it. I’m not really sure what your insinuating really. A good thief is a deadly opponent, they are tricky to counter, but can be countered. I main multiple lvl 80’s and have every class except engi and thief to 80. I have learned over time that if I use X build on this class, I’ll have trouble with class A, B, and sometimes C, but not D – E – F – or G.

The point I’m making is that certain builds are strong against certain class types, while being weak against others. If you find yourself losing to X or Y class, use a build that strongly counters that class.

If you don’t, then you deserve to be killed by a thief or any other class.

I didn’t realize I would have to retrait every time I ran into a different profession. Hell they should make a consumable that spawns a retrait trainer so I can just pop it in the middle of a field when I see a thief, and quickly switch to that build that will defeat him!

tl;dr Thief is Ez Mode for bad players, a good thief will never die, stealth is Op.

So…you’re saying that your 1 spec should be good against all players, when there are 5 trait lines, each giving you multiple possibilities against various classes, including the thief.

…right.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

jkctmc.8754:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Also, if you want to talk about balance, please really considering spvping and THEN complain about stealth. As far as I know, CULLING is the issue, which can be procced by huge zergs, mesmers, etc, not just thieves. It’s really childish to blame your problems on one class when it’s caused by more than one thing. If you can show me a pvp match where you are getting murdered in pvp, I’ll believe stealth is a problem then. But last I checked, they aren’t making the top 3 list in pvp.

It must really suck that you suck at playing the Thief. They do not need stealth. I run more stealth on my Mesmer, than I do my Thief now. With our Shortbow teleport, and the Sword “2” teleport you should hardly ever die in a PvP fight.

I wish people would really get good with Thieves. There are so many bad ones out there, it isn’t funny.

Lol, way to call me out when I wasn’t even being negative towards you—I just disagree with the stuff claimed in this thread due to my expereiences. But yes, let’s call my thief bad. Too bad there’s not 1v1s because I’d like to prove a point as opposed to thinking I know what’s up. -_-

Also I dare you to make a pvp post about the thief being one of the best in pvp in the spvp forums. And if the response is in your favor, I’ll give you that.

Heck, why are you even arguing with me, I’m trying to say stealth doesn’t make the thief OP. And you are telling me the thief doesn’t need stealth to be good. Are we not on the same page?

This is the WvW forums, NOT the nerfed, and dumbed down state sPvP is. Why would you even bring up the boring aspect of sPvP, in the WvW forums?

You act as if you know what WvW is about—which obviously you don’t. I said if you really want to say a class is OP, play in sPvP where the class actually matters—not where the equipment, food buffs, culling, huge maps, etc come into play.

No matter how much you want to make WvW a balanced pvp-zone, it’s not going to be unless Anet puts a lvl req on WvW and an equipment req. And frankly, a lot of people in WvW do not know how to fight as mentioned by some others. Most of them really suck at fighting and kudos to you for owning them.

Seriously guys, L2P. and for you jkctmc, get over yourself.

I have never, nor will I ever say any class is OP, in any game. Learn to read.

All I’m saying is this. If you’re dying as a Thief, enough that you believe other classes don’t need some kind of buff, you need to learn how to play. I have to be both tired, and drunk to die on my Thief, even then, I rarely ever die.

Quit bringing up sPvP in a WvW forums. No one cares about that carebear system.

Why would other classes need a buff and not the thief, if the class wasn’t OP? Why is thief not OP if you can literally wreck anyone unless you are tired or drunk? Are you sure you aren’t inebriated currently? And way to ignore my other points.

Don’t talk about class balancing when you are playing a game field that isn’t balanced. sPvP does it a lot better than WvW (newsflash). And regardless if you hate sPvP or not, the way it sets up armor/equipment/stats is more equal than WvW will ever be. If you really want to know which class needs a buff you need to play them on an equal playing field. I’ll take buffs any day just for the sake of buffs, but not because Thief is at a better state than any other class (because it’s not)

A server of many really good thieves can still not stop a good WvW servers from stomping points and winning. What part of that do you not understand. Quit bringing deathmatches into WvW forum. This is about capturing points, learn to play that game first.

For starters, sPvP is the illusion of balance, so saying it is epitome of balance only ruins your argument. You are correct, the current format is a zerg vs zerg format. Grats, you have figured it out man. You’re da man. Wish I had thought of it. I mean after DAoC, War, and so on, who would have thought to come up with such an idea?

I could easily take 20 Thieves, and catpure points, as easy as any other group made up of a scattering of classes. Hell, I take keeps/towers in my Karma train runs with people levels 1-80, when everyone is leveling alts. Doing points is easy, and anyone can do it. I’m not sure why you’re even going there, but ok.

You can not judge a class in sPvP, in regards to WvW. Quit even suggesting it. It’s not even worth discussing it.

As for classes needing buffed, pointing to OP classes, that is a very odd way to look at things. I don’t see any class as OP, but see a lot of bugs that need fixed, and classes like the Engineer, and Ranger needing buffs. Why is that so hard to understand?

sostronk.8167:

jportell.2197:

sostronk.8167:

What Im confused about is how this thread is supposed to be about stealth in WvW and how it came to purely focus on the thief. The thing is I think Veil is the most OP stealth ability in the game.

Veil has a 90 second cd with a 4 second stealth duration… 5 second if the Mesmer traits for it even then it only affects him… Most mesmers only use it at the request of their party members because the cooldown is obscenely long for a slot skill and the utility is minimal at best when compared to nullfield/feedback… You are also forgetting engi’s can do the same thing as veil when they toss an elixir… and Rangers can hide in plain sight… The difference here is the skills are not spammable and the players get no ADDED benefit of being in stealth other than hey you can’t see me… No extra damage in their attacks no condition removal from being stealthed nothing like that… Thief gets most perks and spammable stealth in game which makes sense to a degree but they need to take out some of the perks of stealth that are specific to a thief class. That is why they get griped about the most… Sure veil and the toss elixir are great… but nowhere near as potent as thief stealth skills.

Your obviously very inexperienced in WvW. Please talk to me when you are experienced and know what your talking about.

Actually WvW is all I do.. DB tier three. Yeah we are losing to FA but that isn’t it. Do i beat thieves? Sure do I lose to annoying stealth theves yeah because most of my high damage skills require a target. On a mesmer we have the prestige… 24 sec cooldown if traited and stealths us for 3 seconds and if the AOE burn hits we get the debuff…. Veil which can be 5 seconds if traited 30 points into the Chaos tree 90 Second cooldown… The advantage here is we can stealth a limitless number of people but the duration of the curtain and the stealth are short that they only give a quick opener advantage. Then we have decoy which is also on a fairly long cooldown… Then we have mass invis… Which most solo mesmers use over timewarp but it still has that 5 man cap… So lets say a mesmer traits fully into stealth! That means that with being fully traited for som stealth a mesmer can be stealthed for 22 seconds straight… after that they have to wait at least 20+more seconds to restealth and even then it will be for a short time… Thieves can spam it every three seconds… Thieves get a bonus in damage from being in stealth… No other class does. I do as much WvW and expierementing with fights and builds there. But good for you you are in tier one… nice zerg!

Better yet remove it. I’m fed up of chasing them constantly since everyone runs one now.

I’ve not only soloed Supply camps on my thief, but Towers…

If you think Thieves are somehow weak in this department, you’re mistaken

Give it a bit, and it’ll pop up.

This is me solo killing the champion at the keep, I’d already killed the guards before I bothered to record.

It’s not very hard to do this either….Same method as players, Poison field the mobs and drop caltrops…

As that one guy earlier in the thread put it, make it so we can see the numbers when we hit them. That way we KNOW we’re not swinging at thin air. And to add more fun to it, make it so thieves take 20% more damage while stealthed. It nerfs the difficulty without nerfing the stealth.

jkctmc.8754:

It must really suck that you suck at playing the Thief. They do not need stealth. I run more stealth on my Mesmer, than I do my Thief now. With our Shortbow teleport, and the Sword “2” teleport you should hardly ever die in a PvP fight.

I wish people would really get good with Thieves. There are so many bad ones out there, it isn’t funny.

I have never, nor will I ever say any class is OP, in any game. Learn to read.

All I’m saying is this. If you’re dying as a Thief, enough that you believe other classes don’t need some kind of buff, you need to learn how to play. I have to be both tired, and drunk to die on my Thief, even then, I rarely ever die.

Quit bringing up sPvP in a WvW forums. No one cares about that carebear system.

For starters, sPvP is the illusion of balance, so saying it is epitome of balance only ruins your argument. You are correct, the current format is a zerg vs zerg format. Grats, you have figured it out man. You’re da man. Wish I had thought of it. I mean after DAoC, War, and so on, who would have thought to come up with such an idea?

I could easily take 20 Thieves, and catpure points, as easy as any other group made up of a scattering of classes. Hell, I take keeps/towers in my Karma train runs with people levels 1-80, when everyone is leveling alts. Doing points is easy, and anyone can do it. I’m not sure why you’re even going there, but ok.

You can not judge a class in sPvP, in regards to WvW. Quit even suggesting it. It’s not even worth discussing it.

As for classes needing buffed, pointing to OP classes, that is a very odd way to look at things. I don’t see any class as OP, but see a lot of bugs that need fixed, and classes like the Engineer, and Ranger needing buffs. Why is that so hard to understand?

Agree to disagree, but now I finally see your main point—and it’s not hard to understand, you just came into this forum assumed a lot of things with quite a bad attitude and making it very ambiguous that all you wanted was some class fixes/buffs to bring their game up. If all you wanted was class buffs, make it clear in your first post, not about how you rock with thief and apparently I suck with thief when I made no mention that I even played thief. Bad attitudes can create even worse attitudes from the replying party, please take that lesson when you post next time.

I know capturing points is easy, but that’s really what WvW is all about and that’s why actual fighting is pointless. I am not against buffs/fixes for classes, but nerfing a thief is what I am against (I don’t even play a thief outside PvE!) because they are getting so much hate for L2P issues or classes lacking issues which should be aimed towards individual classes getting buffs so they fix those classes overall in PvP and PvE. So yes, we’ve been on the same page since the beginning if that’s what you wanted, nothing more to discuss because our viewpoints won’t change much.

Xsorus.2507:

I’ve not only soloed Supply camps on my thief, but Towers…

If you think Thieves are somehow weak in this department, you’re mistaken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOogi5r4x68

Give it a bit, and it’ll pop up.

This is me solo killing the champion at the keep, I’d already killed the guards before I bothered to record.

It’s not very hard to do this either….Same method as players, Poison field the mobs and drop caltrops…

I mean…no one was there. I don’t see your point.

sostronk.8167:

jportell.2197:

sostronk.8167:

jportell.2197:

sostronk.8167:

What Im confused about is how this thread is supposed to be about stealth in WvW and how it came to purely focus on the thief. The thing is I think Veil is the most OP stealth ability in the game.

Veil has a 90 second cd with a 4 second stealth duration… 5 second if the Mesmer traits for it even then it only affects him… Most mesmers only use it at the request of their party members because the cooldown is obscenely long for a slot skill and the utility is minimal at best when compared to nullfield/feedback… You are also forgetting engi’s can do the same thing as veil when they toss an elixir… and Rangers can hide in plain sight… The difference here is the skills are not spammable and the players get no ADDED benefit of being in stealth other than hey you can’t see me… No extra damage in their attacks no condition removal from being stealthed nothing like that… Thief gets most perks and spammable stealth in game which makes sense to a degree but they need to take out some of the perks of stealth that are specific to a thief class. That is why they get griped about the most… Sure veil and the toss elixir are great… but nowhere near as potent as thief stealth skills.

Your obviously very inexperienced in WvW. Please talk to me when you are experienced and know what your talking about.

Actually WvW is all I do.. DB tier three. Yeah we are losing to FA but that isn’t it. Do i beat thieves? Sure do I lose to annoying stealth theves yeah because most of my high damage skills require a target. On a mesmer we have the prestige… 24 sec cooldown if traited and stealths us for 3 seconds and if the AOE burn hits we get the debuff…. Veil which can be 5 seconds if traited 30 points into the Chaos tree 90 Second cooldown… The advantage here is we can stealth a limitless number of people but the duration of the curtain and the stealth are short that they only give a quick opener advantage. Then we have decoy which is also on a fairly long cooldown… Then we have mass invis… Which most solo mesmers use over timewarp but it still has that 5 man cap… So lets say a mesmer traits fully into stealth! That means that with being fully traited for som stealth a mesmer can be stealthed for 22 seconds straight… after that they have to wait at least 20+more seconds to restealth and even then it will be for a short time… Thieves can spam it every three seconds… Thieves get a bonus in damage from being in stealth… No other class does. I do as much WvW and expierementing with fights and builds there. But good for you you are in tier one… nice zerg!

Please stop talking. You are just constantly saying stupid kitten and demonstrating how little you know.

Please elaborate for me how I am demonstrating how little I know? Am i giving incorrect information? On the mesmer I am sure that I am not… Why? Because that is what I play in wvw. We can stealth second most in a fight but get no damage bonuses and our stealthing ability is most certainly not spammable every three seconds in a long fight… If we use it all in the opening of the fight then we are screwed other wise we have… The thief needs to get some sort of nerf when it comes to stealth… I’ve always wondered why the trait to move 50% faster was there… When was the last time you have heard of a FAST sneaky person? Most examples of people being sneaky require them to move slow. make the trait so the thief moves 50% slower but can deal double the current backstab damage… Seriously I have a thief… Not to 80 but its just silly how easy it is for me to reset the fight.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Xsorus.2507:

I’ve not only soloed Supply camps on my thief, but Towers…

If you think Thieves are somehow weak in this department, you’re mistaken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOogi5r4x68

Give it a bit, and it’ll pop up.

This is me solo killing the champion at the keep, I’d already killed the guards before I bothered to record.

It’s not very hard to do this either….Same method as players, Poison field the mobs and drop caltrops…

I mean…no one was there. I don’t see your point.

I think Xsorus is using this thread to promote his youtube cause these videos don’t prove anything.

Hey everyone subscribe to Xsorus youtube to watch videos of the obvious, thief is the only class in the game that can solo a keep and solo camps!!!

Venn.7623:

The fact you can chain stealths together is the problem lol… Mesmers and Thieves both can constantly stay invisible and dish out loads of damage. Stealth needs a higher cooldown that’s about it. Mesmers and Thieves are in no way easy to take down, especially ones that know when to re-stealth. Sure they’re squishy but all their stealths and conditions make up for it. And you can spec Mesmers to be quite beefy.

Sorry I get long winded in my posts. I highlighted in bold what your said in one paragraph that I was trying to say in eight million paragraphs. lol

I have no problem with thief damage or other mechanics. That stealth spam is infuriatingly not well designed.

Korgov.7645:

What if Stealth did not make character truly invisible?

Instead:

• makes your toon have that glassy/transparent appearance to enemies and friends
• still allows access to all Thief stealthed-only skills
• hides telegraphing skill use
• protects from all directed attacks (Miss)

Pros

• Enemy would not lose target – no desperate random TAB re-targetting.
• Enemy client’s GPU would have the stealthed unit rendered all the time – no culling/loading textures delay.
• Enemy would know who/what killed them – less whining.
• Enemy would have it easier to track and catch escaping thief – no more 100% risk free fights.

Cons

• Backstab would be difficult to land.
• Some PvE content would become unskippable (don’t know if this is good or bad).

I really like this idea. You would need to gives thieves some more defensive skills to compensate for surprise attacks. Maybe allow thieves to attack you fully stealthed but once in combat you become this glassy predator like image.

I never havent seen a thief wich was in stealth over the whole time ;-)
(this was just for fun because its so wonderful tautologic)

1. Norn Ranger’s elite allow them to stealth but that’s no issue because it’s a long cooldown and they have no burst damage coming out of stealth.

2. Mesmer can stealth through torch, 3 utilities, 1 trait, and an elite skill. No matter what build the mesmer is, they can’t generate a lot of damage coming out of stealth. Let’s face it no Mesmer is gonna chose all invis skills or trait for any build they’re running. Confusion Mesmer has no direct damage output and the torch is useless if the attacker doesn’t attack. Shatter Mesmers mostly use invis trait, decoy, blink and feedback, and/or mirror image. All of which which long cooldown even after traited.

3. Thief can stealth through weapon, utilities, and trait. All of which has such short initiative cost with relatively no penalty. When traited for initiative regen a thief can recover their used initiative very quick as seen in some videos in this thread. Hence, allowing them to constantly stealth. Couple that with culling an average player will only be able to spot a thief for 1 sec before it stealths again. They’re able to stealth at about every 3 seconds no matter the build.

Culling is not the only issue making thieves seemed OP. Thieves don’t seem OP, they are OP. No other stealth class can generate massive amount of damage coming out of stealth. Yeh they have low HP, so what? They have the ability to run away to regen and with this new patch they don’t even have to run away. They just got a HP regen buff so when they stealth they don’t need to run away anymore to prevent you from regenerating also. They’ll be healing in stealth while your heal skill is on cooldown. Stealth overall should be reworked because it is an OP system not just in this game but in all mmo even the ones with stealth detection skills. What Anet should have done is not allowing thieves to reenter stealth once they’re in combat. However if they want to reenter stealth then they have to run to get out of combat. That wont render thieves useless because they’re the class with great mobility so running away wont be an issue.

xTiMeBoMBx.2863:

1. Norn Ranger’s elite allow them to stealth but that’s no issue because it’s a long cooldown and they have no burst damage coming out of stealth.

2. Mesmer can stealth through torch, 3 utilities, 1 trait, and an elite skill. No matter what build the mesmer is, they can’t generate a lot of damage coming out of stealth. Let’s face it no Mesmer is gonna chose all invis skills or trait for any build they’re running. Confusion Mesmer has no direct damage output and the torch is useless if the attacker doesn’t attack. Shatter Mesmers mostly use invis trait, decoy, blink and feedback, and/or mirror image. All of which which long cooldown even after traited.

3. Thief can stealth through weapon, utilities, and trait. All of which has such short initiative cost with relatively no penalty. When traited for initiative regen a thief can recover their used initiative very quick as seen in some videos in this thread. Hence, allowing them to constantly stealth. Couple that with culling an average player will only be able to spot a thief for 1 sec before it stealths again. They’re able to stealth at about every 3 seconds no matter the build.

Culling is not the only issue making thieves seemed OP. Thieves don’t seem OP, they are OP. No other stealth class can generate massive amount of damage coming out of stealth. Yeh they have low HP, so what? They have the ability to run away to regen and with this new patch they don’t even have to run away. They just got a HP regen buff so when they stealth they don’t need to run away anymore to prevent you from regenerating also. They’ll be healing in stealth while your heal skill is on cooldown. Stealth overall should be reworked because it is an OP system not just in this game but in all mmo even the ones with stealth detection skills. What Anet should have done is not allowing thieves to reenter stealth once they’re in combat. However if they want to reenter stealth then they have to run to get out of combat. That wont render thieves useless because they’re the class with great mobility so running away wont be an issue.

The whole point of various traits in their trait line is to generate massive damage out of stealth…

A mesmers stealth is more about defense.

Culling issues and the effect that has on the combat aside, the problem with stealth in WvW (thieves mainly, though it applies a bit to mesmers) is that the balance of risk vs reward is completely off.

Saying that, it is not just a matter of stealth as the mobility/escapes many Ele builds have also create a lack of risk vs reward.

iCryptik.1496:

xTiMeBoMBx.2863:

1. Norn Ranger’s elite allow them to stealth but that’s no issue because it’s a long cooldown and they have no burst damage coming out of stealth.

2. Mesmer can stealth through torch, 3 utilities, 1 trait, and an elite skill. No matter what build the mesmer is, they can’t generate a lot of damage coming out of stealth. Let’s face it no Mesmer is gonna chose all invis skills or trait for any build they’re running. Confusion Mesmer has no direct damage output and the torch is useless if the attacker doesn’t attack. Shatter Mesmers mostly use invis trait, decoy, blink and feedback, and/or mirror image. All of which which long cooldown even after traited.

3. Thief can stealth through weapon, utilities, and trait. All of which has such short initiative cost with relatively no penalty. When traited for initiative regen a thief can recover their used initiative very quick as seen in some videos in this thread. Hence, allowing them to constantly stealth. Couple that with culling an average player will only be able to spot a thief for 1 sec before it stealths again. They’re able to stealth at about every 3 seconds no matter the build.

Culling is not the only issue making thieves seemed OP. Thieves don’t seem OP, they are OP. No other stealth class can generate massive amount of damage coming out of stealth. Yeh they have low HP, so what? They have the ability to run away to regen and with this new patch they don’t even have to run away. They just got a HP regen buff so when they stealth they don’t need to run away anymore to prevent you from regenerating also. They’ll be healing in stealth while your heal skill is on cooldown. Stealth overall should be reworked because it is an OP system not just in this game but in all mmo even the ones with stealth detection skills. What Anet should have done is not allowing thieves to reenter stealth once they’re in combat. However if they want to reenter stealth then they have to run to get out of combat. That wont render thieves useless because they’re the class with great mobility so running away wont be an issue.

The whole point of various traits in their trait line is to generate massive damage out of stealth…

A mesmers stealth is more about defense.

Hence the problem of stealth. The advantage is far greater than any other class for nearly no penalty. I hope people don’t bring up that “but thieves have low HP” excuse because that was then when people didn’t know about which gears and trinkets to use. Now they do and thieves can clearly shoot pass 20k+ HP and still sustain insane direct damage output.

xTiMeBoMBx.2863:

No other stealth class can generate massive amount of damage coming out of stealth.

And? It’s built into their mechanics ie. backstab. What’s your point? Read the dev blog describing profession roles, this is intended.

xTiMeBoMBx.2863:

Yeh they have low HP, so what? They have the ability to run away to regen and with this new patch they don’t even have to run away. They just got a HP regen buff so when they stealth they don’t need to run away anymore to prevent you from regenerating also. They’ll be healing in stealth while your heal skill is on cooldown.

Yeah they have low HP + med armor, that’s why they depend on stealth for defense, that’s what. They might be able to run away and regen, but that also means whoever they were fighting will reset too. What’s this regen buff your talking about? There’s nothing in the patch notes about a regen buff.

xTiMeBoMBx.2863:

Stealth overall should be reworked because it is an OP system not just in this game but in all mmo even the ones with stealth detection skills. What Anet should have done is not allowing thieves to reenter stealth once they’re in combat. However if they want to reenter stealth then they have to run to get out of combat. That wont render thieves useless because they’re the class with great mobility so running away wont be an issue.

I see now, you just flat out hate stealth in all games, gotcha ya. Your suggestion to not allow thieves to re-enter stealth once in combat is hilarious by the way. Why not just delete the class altogether while you’re at it.

xTiMeBoMBx.2863:

I hope people don’t bring up that “but thieves have low HP” excuse because that was then when people didn’t know about which gears and trinkets to use. Now they do and thieves can clearly shoot pass 20k+ HP and still sustain insane direct damage output.

Thieves have the lowest base HP, but your rebuttal is “oh but they can sacrifice EVERYTHING to get 20k HP”. Are you kidding me? What’s the point in sacrificing everything to get 20k HP when you hit like a wet noodle?

Are you reading this ANet?

These are the type of people demanding nerfs. facepalm

roamzero.9486:

Ralathar.7236:

My defensively spec’d Engineer has been dropped in under 3 seconds by a thief before. All vitality and toughness. I literally got to see the final heartseeker and that is it. No other classes has ever taken down that engineer even close to that fast. Heck I’ve eaten damage from groups of people and survived before on that build.

The general design of the game seems to be that every build has a hard counter, even ones stacking vit/tough. If vit/toughness couldnt be countered by extreme single target burst then the game would just gravitate towards becoming Bunker Wars 2. I think more players should accept that fact (and I dont even run burst thief btw, though I love defensive builds).

I have no issues with having a hard counter, but lets face it there is a difference between having a hard counter and being destroyed in seconds as someone built completely towards toughness/vitality.

Keep in mind as well I give up alot of damage to go that spec (I actually think a few bunker builds should give up more damage), yet my thief actually dies less. More mitigation is great for playing bait and soaking damage, but ultimately my thief has more survivability while playing glass.

Thieves will not be balanced until they give them a bit more innate defenses and lessen the defensive abilities of stealth. I like that it gives people a jump on others, but right now it’s giving equal amounts of both offense and defense when used properly. Make them build for each like everyone else.

Ahem…. Thieves can still build tanky as heck but deal insane damage from backstab… They can build condition P/D thieves… The problem with the stealth as a base mechanic isn’t too terrible… But when combined with all the increased bonuses that thieves can get while being in stealth is insane… the other class with second most access to stealth has to go 30 deep into a trait line to get bonuses from stealth… (Mesmers) And they still can not hit into stealth nearly as often as a thief… And combined with culling (mesmers get less bonus from this because they don’t get a damage bonus from stealth) thieves become way harder to kill… More so than they should be! And mesmer has some of the worst (Worst?) in game mobility… Making our stealth just a way to prolong the inevitable that we will be found not long after we break stealth especially now that our clones have NO weapons in wvw and seriously wtf is up with that? It’s kind of like what the Dev’s said about bunker ele’s that they get a bunch of small things to make them too good… Same is said for thieves ATM… The base of stealth isn’t bad but the added bonuses they get from being in stealth combined with culling/model rendering is what is so infuriating for anyone that has to deal with this in WvW

Spyder.9713:

You ppl are kitten for this… u do releize that stealth exsist in almost all morpgs?? U all think its bad on here then dont every play daoc or wow, prob just rage quit lol… the thiefs job in pvp, wvw, whatever is the same as any other game… they are there to thin the herd, just like a lion, do u think he goes after the biggest strongest wildabeast in the herd no he goes after the weak sickly one… that is the thief, shame on u ppl!

Actually the stealth in DAOC, as much as I hated them, were really well balanced for open world combat.

Lets do a short comparison:

Dark Age of Camelot stealth:

Pros:

Could pick their battles
Could avoid zergs
High opening damage
Capable of quickly killing light to medium targets
High melee evade
Permanent Stealth
Could use poisons
Get out of jail free card (Vanish)

Cons:

Fragile and easily killed if caught in the open
No ranged damage of note
No AOE damage of note
Stealth breaks on damage
AOE was thus a big worry and you had to chose approach routes carefully
Many classes were designed with the ability to find and pop stealthers
Almost all Burst damage tied to stealth
Damage while visible largely relied on poisons or reactive abilities from evading
Reactive abilities could easily miss and were unreliable
No reliable hard CC
No capabilities outside of Vanish
Vanish had a high cooldown
Locked into your specing choices until later

Guild Wars 2 Thief:

Pros:

Could pick their battles
Could avoid zergs
High opening damage
High all around damage
Capable of quickly killing most targets
Incredible mobility
Permanent Stealth
Could use poisons
Get out of jail free card = stealth + mobility
Get out of jail free card = available at most any time to a good player
Some attacks do not even break stealth
Nobody can remove you from stealth
Many benefits from being in stealth
Stealth is spammable
Skills can be changed out on the fly
Culling X10

Cons:

Fragile and easily killed if caught out of stealth
Stealth is not permanent, but instead of a relatively short duration

You see some problems there? The main balancing factors such as lack of AOE damage, much much lower damage after opener, very limited escapability options, lack of ranged damage, etc are not there. The tradeoff of permanent stealth was that you couldn’t stealth in combat and could be popped out of stealth by 1 point of damage.

The Guild Wars 2 Thief is a much much stronger class than stealthers in Dark Age of Camelot ever were.

Raven Paradox.1860:

A thief without stealth is the equivalent to a necromancer without conditions. It’s just not going work…

Actually this has been done in games before. It goes by the name of melee DPS. You are made out of glass and you get gap closers and maybe a single escape, but you do very high damage.

It’s a viable archetype that has been done effectively many times before.

What needs to happen is decrease the size of the WvW maps so that classes that are about to die can’t run away.

If your going to duel a ele then a imaginary ring should appear that is 900 × 900 units. If the elementalist leaves that ring he dies and you win automatically same with a thief.

Make a fight button so that when you press it you get a stage select and a also a character select screen. If your server is winning in points you get to select the stage(size of the ring) first. The winner of these small skirmishes gives points to their servers side. Thus making all of these arguments completely relevant when it comes to class vs class balance in WvW.

Again another chain of whining post on how thieves use stealth and the spike they give. It’s like saying “please take the clones away from a mesmer because it isn’t a 1v1 anymore when he does it”. It does not matter if the comment came from a thief user or not but its more of the build that matters and who you are up against.

Xsorus.2507 can get out of a fight means he is either semi to really good with his thief and is comfortable with his build. Musty.3148’s take on curbstompers makes an unfair comment and if you wanna discuss stomping you will know many other classes like an ele/guard will stomp better with the stability they have and ability to sustain being hit even while stomping. A thief on the other hand might get interrupted/fall due to surrounding damage while stomping. In fact in big fights when a thief does the stomping there is a problem with the fight mechanic because that leaves one of the heavier dmg classes out because they are stomping when all they need to do is time kill the foes by hitting them once every 5 seconds. It’s a matter of how you play and not how cheesy a class is.

Let’s not talk about getting out of a fight because every class has its unique mechanism of play. A thief is made for mobility and more than often burst dmg although some prefer to play different builds like condition dmg or venom share. So why not remove death shroud from a necro because it gives them 2 lives or a pet from a ranger because they can attack from both far and near at the same time?

This is my first MMO. My impression of MMOs has always been that players are bad at PvP in MMOs. I just came upon the realisation that my impression was completely correct whilst reading this thread.

sostronk.8167:

This is my first MMO. My impression of MMOs has always been that players are bad at PvP in MMOs. I just came upon the realisation that my impression was completely correct whilst reading this thread.

Try fighting a good thief in WvW as one of your alts.

Nerf or no nerf, Xsorus, me and my friends in TS had a good laugh watching your thief video. Seriously, you are bloody horrible and your enemies are even worse. How do you even find these people?

RyuDragnier.9476:

sostronk.8167:

This is my first MMO. My impression of MMOs has always been that players are bad at PvP in MMOs. I just came upon the realisation that my impression was completely correct whilst reading this thread.

Try fighting a good thief in WvW as one of your alts.

Id be willing to take on any thief in WvW with my Warrior and bet my left testicle I beat them.

I encourage those of you who can see the badly imbalancing nature of stealth in this game to send complaints to anet. Even many, fair-minded, thieves admit that stealth is badly broken, but a few thieves cling to their overpowered status. there’s a very good reason that no other game allows perma stealth even during attacks or getting damage. It ruins pvp.

I’ve seen 10 people trying to kill one lonely theif and fail. Meanwhile the thief does their super simple button click to do 15k insta DMG and then pop back into stealth.

If a thief does DMG from stealth they should drop out of stealth and NOT be able to go back into stealth for 30 seconds. It’s the worst stealth in a game I have ever com across.

Diashame.6328:

If a thief does DMG from stealth they should drop out of stealth and NOT be able to go back into stealth for 30 seconds. It’s the worst stealth in a game I have ever com across.

if a thief went into stealth for 30 sec and you are still worried about what he did when he went stealth, then…. speechless

Diashame.6328:

I’ve seen 10 people trying to kill one lonely theif and fail. Meanwhile the thief does their super simple button click to do 15k insta DMG and then pop back into stealth.

If a thief does DMG from stealth they should drop out of stealth and NOT be able to go back into stealth for 30 seconds. It’s the worst stealth in a game I have ever com across.

I’ve seen 10 people trying to kill one lonely guardian and fail.
Meanwhile the guardian does their super simple button click to do 15k insta DMG and then pop back into immunity.

Daendur.2357:

Diashame.6328:

I’ve seen 10 people trying to kill one lonely theif and fail. Meanwhile the thief does their super simple button click to do 15k insta DMG and then pop back into stealth.

If a thief does DMG from stealth they should drop out of stealth and NOT be able to go back into stealth for 30 seconds. It’s the worst stealth in a game I have ever com across.

I’ve seen 10 people trying to kill one lonely guardian and fail.
Meanwhile the guardian does their super simple button click to do 15k insta DMG and then pop back into immunity.

The guardian can’t hit like that and be tank ish. Sorry you are wrong. Also, they can see the guardian. Huge difference.

kuora.5402:

Nerf or no nerf, Xsorus, me and my friends in TS had a good laugh watching your thief video. Seriously, you are bloody horrible and your enemies are even worse. How do you even find these people?

They’re pretty bad, Honestly though the worst player’s i’ve come across have been some SoR and JQ players..

I use to kill droves of SoR players like it was going out of style..

Columba.9730:

The guardian can’t hit like that and be tank ish. Sorry you are wrong. Also, they can see the guardian. Huge difference.

No, that guardian was really tough. He was doing tons of damage and healing himself a lot. You are wrong. Guardian need nerf. Too many shields and absorbtions.
No class should be able to resist the impact of 20 people and do not die, and still do damage and move.
When guardian use a shield must drop his weapon for like 20 seconds and be rooted in place.