This goes back all the way to the old stack limits and the introduction of Unshakable/Defiance that heavily nerfed Necromancer’s soft CC and combo fields against bosses.
Consider a poison field. A poison bolt lasts for 2 seconds and does roughly 2/3 the damage of a 1 second burning bolt but bosses generally do not heal so the reduction to healing power that we see in WvW and PvP is never realized and weakness only affects break bars (when they are available). So poison fields in PvE do sub-standard dps.
I wish Arenanet would just add 2 seconds of bleeding to projectile and whirl combo’s off ice fields so they would at least be at par with Poison.
Wow, lots of… discussion.
I started playing with math and some broad, sweeping assumptions. C&C is welcome.
Warning, I used en.gw2skills.net build editor for power damage calculations but the numbers for condition damage just would not quite match the wiki so some of it was based on wiki’s condition damage formulas.
———————————————-
One 3.5 sec bleed on 2 of 3 dagger AA strikes in a 2 sec rotation should give a stack of 3.5 bleeds or a stack of 7 bleeds with capped condi duration. Using ascended Viper’s and assuming capped bleed duration and no rune or consumable stat’s for a total of 1385 condition damage, my awful math skills say that adds about 735 condi dps with close to 1.2k power dps on dagger AA for roughly a 60% dps increase. Barbed Precision would likely proc along with Blood Bond in addition to the 20% boost to Life Siphon.
At first, I thought that might be too much for Arenanet to accept; especially if a bleeds are available from sigils of earth and geomancy in PvE/WvW, if we only want the boost to Life Siphon.
However, if I look at it another way, the same, bare Viper’s condi-Reaper has three 5-sec bleeds on a sub-3 sec AA rotation (call it an 11 bleed stack with 100% duration) for ~ 1.155 kdps in addition to the ~ 1k dps power damage on a 3-target cleave vs dagger’s 2. (Thinking about hit-box size.) This is a lower-tier meta’s AA for comparison without taking into account Gravedigger. Also, this ignores crit’s, assuming they proc with close to the same frequency and damage for GS and dagger.
So, if we want MH dagger dps to be viable in a raid, it would need >80% increase in dps to equal greatsword with Deathly Chill in a hybrid build and not counting crit’s.
For comparison, scepter AA is three 4.5 sec bleeds on a 2.4 sec rotation for 5.625 stacks without lingering curses or 16.875 stacks with LC, 100% duration bonus, and an extra 150 condition damage (1535 total) for 1.925 k dps. Add in about 400 dps for power damage, 470 dps for poison, and that is almost 2.8 k dps that is super easy to apply, super slow, and super boring, too, because it takes 17 seconds to peak, if the target waits that long. It does not have a cleave, though, unless you count Epidemic in the case of add’s, and crit’s on scepter will be much less significant than dagger or GS.
Those numbers were for a hybrid build with 100% duration bonus. Full Berserker’s Reaper AA with sigil of force and signet of spite is supposedly 1.445 kdps without critical hits, runes, or consumables until Close to Death kicks in and raises dps to 1.734 on AA but, then, it is time to start spinning and forget AA. Dagger on Berserker AAs with about 1.47 kdps, or 1.764 kdps for targets under 50%, without crit’s or Gravedigger’s dizzying awesomeness. The two look pretty similar with the exception of Gravedigger’s instant cool down when a target is <50%. Imagine Life Siphon having a 1.5 sec ICD when targets are <50%.
With Berserker’s 50% crit rate out of shroud and 214% crit bonus, I figure AA dps is roughly doubled but that is only when standing <130 away from the target. Outside of that, it is close to zero whereas scepter continues slapping happily up to 900. Against power-Reaper’s Gravedigger or vanilla-Necro’s high-dps kiting with scepter, dagger falls way short but I cannot say it is because of AA. Rather scepter is optimized for condition damage builds and will only work as condi while greatsword is a magical blender with an option to bleed.
Has anyone considered adding bleeds to Life Siphon or Dark Pact or tack bleeds onto main hand weapons with a Scourge trait? Perhaps Arenanet should buff those two skills further. They seem weak compared to Gravedigger and Death Spiral.
That was probably a huge waste of time but hope it gives a basis for further discussion.
Hmm to be honest watching your video the dagger in your build is really inconsequential. Power well builds are great to begin with, I think you’d get more mileage out of axe warhorn.
I agree. MH dagger has a small range like greatsword so swapping to the 900 range axe, instead, could be helpful in countering all of the mobility skills out there. Axe has been buffed more times than I care to remember but it finally feels like a legitimate ranged power weapon and I have not seen a necro’d axe complaint thread in a while.
(edited by Anchoku.8142)
Without seeing how the dev’s have adjusted Scourge since the open beta it is difficult to be sure of much more than Scourge looking like it will work as either mostly condition damage or a hybrid of power and condi. Too much of the dps appears dependent upon torment or torment/burning to allow a pure power build to be meta for dps. Even Reaper’s best dps is on a hybrid build and Reaper is predominately a power-based elite with only one trait selection enabling it to work as a hybrid. That may change on Sept. 22, though.
What game mode and play style do you prefer; ranged, melee, with pets or without? Do you have an image of how Reaper should play that you want to try?
Also, if you are thinking of leveling from 1 to 80 in PvE, your build will evolve from pretty close to nothing at the start. Die-hard, story-mode, completionists may want to level without tomes or a boost but it is also perfectly acceptable to skip straight to L80. WvW and PvP let you do that without much investment.
you use executioner’s scythe for dps rotation, not for CC wtf
I see you do not understand.
When you see a fire field, use your shroud combo finishers, Soul Spiral and Death’s Charge, but do not use Executioner’s Scythe because it leaves an ice field. Just exit shroud after using your finishers. I would not even use Nightfall on GS because it leaves a dark field.
You can play how you want but tell your static to watch out for your Necro-fields and not to waste a fire field over them or use skills with finishers before your fields expire.
Ice fields are a dps loss for every profession, elite, and Necro-build except condi-Reaper. They are only useful on break-bars in PvE and, even then, they are not needed. Alternatively, you could just take another profession to the raid.
The only combinations that significantly increase dps are from fire fields. This is a big part of why Necromancer is undesirable on group PvE. It drops a lot of fields that nerf dps. Ice is the worst. In PvP, WvW, and solo PvE an ice field can be good for the soft CC but not in instanced group PvE.
i dont even know what to say to that xD this guy doesn’t know how combo fields work and wants necros to run golem and warhorn in raids
That is out of context. I meant that you do not need Executioner’s Scythe for break bars, in raids or any other group PvE. There are plenty of other options that do not leave a chill field.
Learn not to nerf others’ dps by leaving chill fields where they are not wanted or play your own way. It is your call.
1) +25 condition damage
2) when interrupted, inflict fear (1 sec) (cool down = 25 seconds)
3) +50 condition damage
4) 25% chance when struck below 50% health to inflict fear to nearby enemies (1 second) (cool down = 15 sec)
5) +100 condition damage
6) +30% fear duration, striking a feared opponent also inflicts chill (1 sec) and cripple (2 sec) (cool down = 30 seconds)
This would be too much fun :/
I use Rune of the Reaper for WvW, too. The AoE soft CC has a use, there.
Yes, the 6th attribute is ridiculously weak even if its cool down was 1 second. It is weaker that a 1 sec blind because barriers decay so rapidly and mitigate a fixed amount of damage.
That rune is garbage regardless of the ICD. Like so many other runes, it is likely meant for other professions that want a hint of Scourge.
How many other Necro-themed runes are actually best for Necromancer?
^
A sum of little benefits is what Scourge seems designed to provide but, in the absence of a must-have function, dps will weigh heavily.
“probably either”? i just told you what it will use. 100% viper gear with nightmare+trapper, malice and geomancy. that way you get 100% on burn, torment, poison, 120% bleed due to trait overcap.
this ofc accounts for the scourge expertise traits.i will gear scourge like this during tomorrow’s stress test to make sure its 100% viper. its possible maybe there will be 1 armor piece sinister, im not sure of that
Viper’s Nightmare/Trapper is not 100% guaranteed to be the best equipment set. It will work well, sure, but may not be meta after the 22nd. There are other options in contention and pure dps may not even be scourge’s raid meta. Everything depends upon Arenanet’s fine tuning of Scourge and new stat/rune options.
The teleport, Sand Swell, may be one good reason to bring Scourge. Otherwise, Arenanet has said the professions are being tweaked based on feedback so we will just have to trust there will be something attractive enough to prevent exclusion from the meta.
Scourge will not need to have an overwhelmingly awesome set of skills or utilities. It will only need to be good enough to allow in a meta raid, once the new meta is figured out. Scourge will be a mix of defense, mobility, and dps so top grade dps shoud not be expected.
wtf did i just read? no, thats not how reaper works. you need to cast the chill field for bleeds and then whirl in it.
Feel free to use Necromancer’s fields in open world PvE, WvW, and PvP.
In instanced PvE, Necromancer’s fields, especially chill, nerfs the rest of your group’s combinations from the time when when your field comes up as eldest to when it expires. Alternatively, you could go stand somewhere else so that your fields do not overlap fire fields from other players, or water fields and such.
Just because you proc bleeds from whirling in a chill field does not mean it is the best option for group dps. Save your finishers and leap for fire fields. Save your chill field(s) for breakbars, if you must use them at all because Flesh Golem, war horn, and fear are substantial by themselves.
Gaile, why not do something malicious for Devil’s Night like deduct 10% of an account’s karma each time a player dies then tell them their armor takes no damage as compensation? It could be refunded the next day but the shock factor would be awesome.
GW2 has the lightest death penalty of any game I have played so maybe a reminder is in order.
(edited by Anchoku.8142)
1) +25 healing
2) +15% barrier increase
3) +50 healing
4) gain 1 second in barrier decay delay below 50% health
5) +100 healing
6) barriers have a 25% chance to give aegis (5 sec) when struck (cool down = 25 seconds).
1) +25 condition damage
2) +35 expertise
3) +50 condition damage
4) +65 expertise
5) +100 condition damage
6) +20% torment duration, +5% damage to crippled foes
1) +25 vitality
2) +15% torment duration
3) +50 vitality
4) 25% chance to receive a copy of one boon when removing or corrupting a boon (cool down = 15 sec)
5) +100 vitality
6) 7% of vitality is converted to condition damage
What happened to just increasing dagger AA damage? About 15% would be a good start. Right now, dagger and great sword AA are roughly similar but great sword cleaves more, has chill on the third hit, and a larger radius, in addition to Gravedigger’s 50% health dps.
1) +25 healing
2) +10% burning duration
3) +50 healing
4) +15% burning duration
5) +100 healing
6) +15% boon duration, when you use a heal skill convert one condition to a boon on nearby allies
I play one of each gender, of each species. They also range in skin tone and build.
If role playing a female character makes you uncomfortable, keep doing it. Think of it as an exercise in seeing women as real people under their physiology.
Litch is still a full transform. No function keys were available when I tried.
In PvE, minions will also hold aggro giving a Scourge a fixed location to drop shades, which may be more beneficial than first appears.
In open-world group PvE, Bone Fiend has projectile finishers and stays ranged so its dps is also good.
However, I suspect the new elites are being tweaked so the utilities may be improved. Wells may also be reasonable alternative utilities for Scourge, especially in WvW.
For a long, long, time, Necromancer was considered by Arenanet to be an easier profession to play because of Death Shroud, the higher health pool, and the minion army. To provide “balance”, Necromancer was suitably handicapped but Necro did apply conditions, which were harder to remove in the early days.
Now that all professions have mechanics to handle conditions and can spam boons, Arenanet probably looked at Necromancer and figured its condition management skills needed an update to handle the new meta and adequately punish boon-heavy builds.
Death Shroud really could use some updates as its performance has been fixed as power, boon, and condi creep has pulled some of its teeth.
Why not swap between Epi and something else depending upon the actual confrontation. I only use Epi in the presence of a boss. The quick mop-up of add’s keeps the group focused.
If you like shouts, try a build with Rune of the Reaper for an extra chill (+ bleeds, if traited). The extra soft CC on every shout is quite pleasant in a crowd.
In PvE, minions will also hold aggro giving a Scourge a fixed location to drop shades, which may be more beneficial than first appears.
In open-world group PvE, Bone Minion has projectile finishers and stays ranged so its dps is also good.
However, I suspect the new elites are being tweaked so the utilities may be improved. Wells may also be reasonable alternative utilities for Scourge, especially in WvW.
Scourge is a hybrid support/condition damage elite. Scourge damage comes from a combination of torment, burning, and corrupted boons. Scourge will also still have access to bleeds and poison via scepter and whatever else is available on core Necro like terror.
Remember, Scourge was designed to provide group support, too, so it is not all about dps, though it had better have good dps if the only mechanics worth taking in a PvE group are those that add mobility.
The elite professions are meant to shore up areas left intentionally weak between the original core professions and the first elite expansion. Group utility is Necromancer’s gaping hole, followed by the condition burst that burning provides and mobility that Sand Swell attempts to address.
It is important to remember Scourge does not provide fire fields or finishers, at the moment. This was some criticism I left on the feedback thread. I understand the lack of fields but the lack of finishers (only staff and Bone Minion would have finishers and both have zero synergy with Scourge) removes an important part of game play.
The important thing to remember with Necromancer or Reaper is to not use fields. Use only finishers and use them on Fire fields as much as possible. Forget about Executioner’s Scythe unless you are specifically attacking a break bar.
I found Lake Doric to be the most sustainable map. The events are easily accessible, they have variety, and there is the leather farm.
Bitterfrost is the map I struggle most with. The NE corner is pointless to visit. There is too much junk that cannot be sold to a NPC. The cave is not worth the effort. The last POI required 35 BLC Keyes. The only parts of Bitterfrost that have repeatable value are the frozen chests, berries, and underwater unbound magic and that is just boring.
From my PoV, most of the suggestions have merit but I would also like to see increased damage on Chilling Scythe and Grasping Darkness. They are both harder to land so a dps increase might be best from them.
Core multipliers for power builds could also use help. Death Magic, Blood Magic, and Spite should have more significant ways to increase damage and greater group utility. For example, Vampiric Presence could add a bleed with ICD for each group member in its AoE, one of the master traits in Spite could add group ferocity, and one of the master traits in Death Magic could add group concentration.
Please just wait until the 22nd.
Why this discussion right before Scourge?
Is there a way to measure how much stress I have during the test?
I just want to know what reaper will be like come PoF. If it finally becomes the power monster, we imagined from the start, I might just stick with it. Unless we get a damaage condi on mh dagger.
It’s becoming nothing. I can’t believe after 3 years of power reaper being trash in HoT you’d think anything would change in PoF when they have even more specs to sort out.
I mean worst case scenario, they nerf condi reaper into the ground and leave power reaper as it is. But either way they’re going to have to do something about condi reaper, since if it stays as it is damage wise, it will still be superior to Scourge. And Anet won’t want this to be. So here’s hoping they at least throw power reaper something when they take away its condi.
If Deathly Chill is nerfed and Reaper does not get a fat hunk of power-cheese, there will be a reconning.
Barriers will be support-ish in a lame, Necro way but the portal, burn bursts, and corruptions will be more important provided they are not nerfed.
So Basically, we’re seeing underpowered builds already nerfed because reasons and that it doesn’t matter, and anyone who plays without a staff is bad.
No, you get a buff to a trait that was thus far only used by builds that weren’t as good as they could’ve been because they didn’t have a staff…
I used Speed of Shadows along with Relentless Pursuit, Life from Death, Transfusion, and staff when mass res’ing in PvE zergs filled with AoE so what flow says seems right.
The change to Speed of Shadows is not a bad deal with its broader range of use cases. Flashing had become a niche, anyway, and soon barriers will provide far more support than a small ICD reduction.
This forum is not entirely independent from Arenanet or quite as publicly accessible to potential players and reviewers who might want to use one site to access all MMO games.
The choice to use Reddit for news that may draw new players or reviewers is perfectly understandable.
It’s clear that the dev is not listening…
This is not true.
At release Necromancer had a lot of bad traits. They all had major fixes, especially Blood Magic, which was awful, before. We wanted burning and got Dhuumfire. We wanted support and got improved wells, Transfusion, Vampiric Presence, SoV and many others.
We wanted cleave and got one on dagger. When dagger’s cleave was still too little, we got greatsword, which gave Necromancer a massive amount of cleave.
We wanted another option for condition damage besides sceptre and we got Deathly Chill.
We wanted more burning and fewer transforms and are getting Scourge.
We even got Revenant!
Just because there are no more Arenanet posts, here, does not mean your feedback is ignored. Arenanet employees’ social media posts and other public statements are tightly regulated to prevent anything they might say being construed as a commitment by Arenanet.
Arenanet’s ongoing goal is to let players choose which profession attracts them thematically and enable builds of that profession which can a) dps in power or condi, or b) support in ways that are interesting and valued.
GW2 is not supposed to have fixed triads for a meta. Elementalist was a heal-bot but Ranger was introduced to counter that. There are many examples of role enabling.
I suspect Scourge will be noticeably more dependant on well-timed dodges, healing support from others, and LF generation rate in PvE. You can already see how much more mechanical Scourge is versus core and Reaper.
I would be fine with a boost to dagger power damage. It has a shorter range and cleaves fewer than greatsword.
Scourge should work well enough for hybrid (dagger, axe on sinister) or pure condition damage (sceptre on viper) that adding conditions to dagger does not seem urgent.
The barrier “thickness” and utility usefulness are more concerning but dagger’s lagging dps is certainly an issue unless Scourge can make up the difference.
Power and ferocity (I’d go for dual stat instead of tristats or quadrastats)
This stat-combiantion would boost the damage of power-reaper into the higher stages of heaven where thiefs and eles make party all the time.
It´s not like I would reject this, it just seems unlikely that we will ever get something like that.
Being able to equip an Ele or a Thief sounds great.
How about this for a recipe:
1 common dye
250 minor runes or sigils
1 pigment of the desired color
1 mystic crystal
Result is 5 pigments of the desired color
—————
1 uncommon dye
250 minor runes or sigils
1 pigment of the desired color
1 mystic crystal
Result is 10 pigments of the desired color
—————
1 rare dye
250 minor runes or sigils
1 pigment of the desired color
1 mystic crystal
Result is 50 pigments of the desired color
Was SoV the first new group support skill after launch? I am trying to remember, here. That was back when anything more than tiny amounts of group heal was against the design theme.
You aren’t going to be doing too much with epi on a power reaper, trust me I’ve tried. At best you’ll be helping stack 25 vuln stacks on almost dead things as your condi damage is too low that anything other than burning won’t do any significant damage when you apply it.
feel free to swap dm for sr and swap some zerks for valks if you do.
Suit yourself. I use Epidemic on power builds whenever I expect add’s. Proc’ing Epi off the boss that your group stacked with conditions is a fast way to clear the add’s.
Guarded Answer
Firebrand Dragonhunter
Saint Nothingburger
Old Man Winter
Lord Cottage Cheese
The Last Jedi
Ihava Soupstrainer
It has been a while since I played only core power Necromancer. It is weaker than Power Reaper.
Try something like this, though.
I would like the siphons to be stronger; more healing and more damage per hit. Ideally a trait in Blood Magic would double Vampiric skills’ effects. Maybe Vampiric Presence could make the Signet’s siphons noticeable.
Whether it actually works, or not, I plan on dagger-torch and axe-something for a continuous and high rate of LF generation.
Equipment will be hybrid power-condi. A mix of sinister, viper, and carrion unless I run a support build.
Edit: I also plan on taking advantage of Sand Soul and Fell Beacon for added expertise so I do not need as much viper equipment.
(edited by Anchoku.8142)