Guild Wars 2

Behellagh.1468:

In the rest of the game, your rewards are independent of the player next to you. You both bonk the same critter on the head, you both get RNG “rolls” on the reward table and the similar amount of XP.

The TP is players interacting with each other. phys, you love tossing the word “exploit” around (definition in your use: benefit unfairly from the work of (someone), typically by overworking or underpaying them) but in a market where every player can set their own prices for how much they want for selling X or buying Y, how can one player exploit another?

This is a PoV issue. Is a player selling an item for more than others, exploiting the buyer if a buyer chooses to buy it from them? Or is the player selling the item simply maximizing his income? Is a player buying an item for less than others exploiting the seller if a seller chooses to sell to them? Or is the player buying simply getting a good deal?

It’s how you answer those questions that then where the disconnect comes when you combine those two activities. If it’s okay to maximize your sales income and minimize the costs of your purchases then why is it bad to do both with the same item? In market economics it’s assumed that all the players in the market have the same self interest at heart. Everyone is trying to maximize their income while trying to minimize their costs.

And that’s the heart of the problem some people with flippers. Because a segment of the TP users aren’t trying to maximize their income while minimizing their costs, an opportunity arises for someone else to take up their slack. But is the flipper exploiting those who aren’t interested in using the TP to its full potential?

Player A sells ori ore for 5s to the high bidder. Player B buys ori ore for 6s from the low seller. As long as the high bidder and low seller are two different players, there isn’t a problem for some. However if they are then this Player C is making 10c off of the trades Player A and B are making. To Player A and B, there is no change in their income or cost if there were two different players at the other end of the transaction or the same player, but because it’s the same player, Player C is labeled a filthy exploiter of the masses because he made a profit off if it. That doesn’t work in my book unless you are willing to label the two players who are buying Player A’s ore and selling to Player B in the first scenario exploiters as well for not offering more or selling for less.

well, people dont like the idea of the word exploit because it feels bad. but yeah there is a lot of exploitation/self interest etc on the TP. It is supposed to form the invisible hand that guides it to equilibrium.

So while you may feel bad about it, yes, any time you seek to gain, by giving someone else less than you believe whatever they do/make/own is worth, you are exploiting them.

Yes, exploitation is a primary driving force in this system(and often in the real world).

Yes, most people need to have a philosophy that exploiting people isnt bad, and its the persons own fault in order to do business successfully without feeling like an ahole.

But really, be objective
if your friend finds a gold rock, and thinks it brass, and you know this and offer him 10 dollars for it, are you not exploiting him?

If one of your friends puts an ad up that they will pay 1000 dollars for a singer to come sing at a show, and you tell your other friend you will give him 400 dollars to sing at this show, are you not exploiting them?

a non exploitive business deal involves both parties trying to pay the value they think something is worth, they may disagree, or compromise, but they both think the value is right. In the case of the flipper this isnt the case, they cannot claim they thought they were giving a good value, because their business is to find the things they know are worth more, and sell them.

how you choose to feel about it is a question of philosophy/what you think is right etc, but the fact remains, if you are gaining, by giving people less than you believe something is worth, you are exploiting them.

Behellagh.1468:

Thank you phys, you’ve now made it quite clear that to you anyone placing a sell order or a bid are exploiters since they are seeking to maximize their earnings or minimize their costs because nobody knows what the true value is. Also the true value is always changing. Therefore unless both parties negotiate a price before hand, which they can’t do using a third party mechanism like the TP, then one is likely exploiting the other.

Therefore the whole notion of the TP is exploitative in nature. That the only players who aren’t exploiting are the ones who always sell to high big and buy from low seller since they’re being exploited by the bidders and and sellers.

Items have a real value, most of them do, you can break them down into what they can create, and what value those items have. They also have a value in terms of how you obtain them/how many you can obtain. I can break black lion keys down to how much they are worth (i have) I can break mithril down into what its worth (relative to making rares) i can tell when tier 5 is overpriced, and when teir 6 is underpriced. When you play the mercantile game, you start to see the real value of almost every item, you can even tell how much cheap blues are worth to break down for luck. Whats a good value for crystaline dust etc. In general a lot of these items value is close to correct, even though it usually comes from a top down value representation that comes back to legendaries, (and now some ascended)

How most people will use the TP is in general exploitive. I have exploited people, i remember at some points i made profit on things i could simply change to another form, and get like 20% returns. I have placed buy orders for materials that were undervalued and salvaged them to turn around and sell them. I dabbled in straight flipping, but its a little too far to the exploit for me, i cant even tell myself i am doing them any service.

But i dont trick myself into thinking im not taking advantage. I dont tell my self the people who sell to me have inferior intellegience etc. And to be honest, if there was a more mutually beneficial system, i would work with that.

That said, i didnt have to be exploitive, just using the TP, i could have stayed away from those trades, and focused on ones where i was actually providing a service (sometimes i was) I could have only placed buy orders that represented a value – what i felt i should make on the transaction.

But yeah, i didnt, playing nice is ineffecient, its a cold world, and while i didnt really like it too much, i needed to get that cash for that legendary. With the way the tp is set up, most of the easy profits come not from providing items (because items are generally in abundance) but from capturing the ineffeciencies of other players. The mistakes in values, how are they supposed to know what all sources for this item is, and how much its really worth in terms of other items/time. They just picked it up off a monster.

But see, this is the philosophy of the tp player, and its very different from the philosophy of an open worlder, WvW player (within their server) dungeon runner etc. You really cant profit from other people getting less in any other mode. On the the tp this is the norm, and with that generally comes a more mercenary outlook.

a difference in philosophy

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Zoxea.9564:

They promised quests or craft which offers guaranteed to get sooner or later. The concept of GW2 is: You can stop the game and come back later, your work is not lost and you can continue where you left. This is the guaranteed.
http://www.gw2shop.net/topic-1532-annonce-colin-johanson-reaborde-la-question-des-precurseur

He was speaking in terms of story. In terms of the economy, if you stop playing the game, you’re left FAR behind in terms of wealth. Just like in real life. If you quit your job for 6 months, and your friend keeps working, guess who would have more money.

Zoxea.9564:

Impossible for them to follow the price in the time.) is totally broken because the price of precursor is extremly broken days after days, months after months.

Let me address this directly. I’m in game, and I can put in a Buy Order for a Precursor (Venom) for 71 Gold, or I can buy it outright for 95 Gold. That is nowhere near your 1540 Gold price quote. So the prices are not “broken” as you claim. You just want the wrong Precursor.

heres what broken means in this context.

It means the supply of the item is not in line with demand, such that the item is a reasonable goal.

Irl, even luxury items tend to increase in production as the demand increases.

essentially, the question is, what was the goal of thier design, was it for people to be able to get a precursor after 2 months of normal play? 3 months? a year?
then they can measure and see how well it is performing to that expectation, they can also look at what type of play is closest to whatever target they were aiming for.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I can name you one already: precursors. The supply of precursors is that low that the demand from player who have gained extreme wealth is higher tahn the actual supply. If those player wouldn’t exsist, the price would be lower. The reason why a Lamborghini is that expensive is because there are enough people out there who have the money to buy it. Otherwise the price would be lower.
And I don’t want ANet to say “Sorry, you’re enjoying traidnign too much, thus we have to stop it entirely.”. I want them to say “We appreciate that you enjoy traiding so much but we have to balance the game, so you can, once you get bored of the TP, go to other gamemodes without losing half of your income.”. Or “We appreciate that you enjoy traiding so much but there are items that should keep some prestige and if you’re able to afford one of those items every month then there is something odd.”.

That’s like telling Microsoft that they make too much money, so they should be punished for it.

This philosophical debate is now turning into a Marxism vs Capitalism one.

you are fundamentally misunderstanding marxism, and capitalism. Even though some aspects are analgous.
HHR isnt really representing for a collective, he is probably more interested in a merit based system that does not give an advantage to traders.

Some people are however asking for a more cooperative economy, while some are advocating for one that is not necessarily cooperative, but not as exploitive. See the key here is there is a great many different philosophies in play here, but the reality is the philosophy of trade in this game is drastically different from the philosophies present in other facets.

Trade in this game is about getting as much as you can from other players, with a small side of fullfilling missing niches. It is essentially PVP, by and large you gain value by taking more value from other players for less work. Its competitive, and the rewards are generally limited only by your ability to find new opportunities, and how many other people can find, and capitilize on them and how much your competition wants to be paid.
It has some good points, and it has some bad points.

Other facets of the game are specifically designed to have a very limited reward even for excellence. The hardest fights in the game reward less, or the same as the easiest fights, this is by design. The longer you work the less effective that work will be, this is by design, Anything that a lot of players do, will give less rewards, or be altered to give less rewards, this is by design. The other facets of the game are heavily controlled, limited, and designed to not let exceptional people get too far ahead, or be too beyond the norm in what they gain.
The philosophy in these parts of the game sacrifice all of that, to keep things less competitive, less elite, to smooth out the effectiveness of effeciency and non effeciency. ETC. it has its advantages, and disadvantages, some times i like it, some times i hate it.

But thing is, these two philosophies are very different, they present very different types of gameplay, If PVE was more competitive, or rewarded differently based on your skill/performance, than in and of itself would create a balance.

If trading was less competitive, and measured, with values being decided based on supply/demand/cost/etc then the game would also be balanced.

but its not, you have two drastically different philosophies behind each design, which attracts drastically different players, but they have to interact and compete/or not compete for the same resources.

this is why there is a disconnect, and will probably will always be one. The game is disconnected.

I cant go out and get large value for being the best dungeon man ever, or the top WvW commander, or the lore master, or the explorer/jump puzzle master. because they didnt want to reward the best players over the average. in PVE

By the same token, i cant expect reasonable, balanced and thought out prices, at rates that match my earnings in pve/pvp because prices are determined totally on demand and wealth distribution, because they wanted to trading to be determined by competition, essentially they wanted to reward the best players over the average, in trading.

this is compounded because everyone must TP but people can opt out of most other playstyles. IE more newbs to get ganked for profit in the trading game.

Yes, you too can feel like a Cadillac in Texas with the Lawless Helm.

Ok here is there challenge: Any Sword Pistol thief that can down me in a duel gets 2 gold, 2 gold for even time they down me. Feel free to add me, request a duel any time I am on I will try accommodate as many people as possible.

I will not be using my thief for these duels see you guys soon

Nope, no patch on the 24th. There still could be one left his year but only if they do the 31st, but since the release page says for 6 weeks, I’m not expecting on the 31st (New Years Eve) either.

Response on twitter from Rubi:

@GuildWars2 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/A-very-Merry-Wintersday-Topic/first#post3318279 … Brings up a good question: Will there still be a patch on Dec 24th? Its Christmas week so I hope not 1/2

Guild Wars 2 ?@GuildWars2 2m

There will not be. Thanks for the wish for a holiday break for us! ~RB2 #GW2

Link

Same. I think it’s awesome that Arenanet has someone who plays this role (something I wouldn’t mind doing myself someday!) If he weighs in and says they want it this way, then I’m happy to drop it. But I’m sure not going to be bullied into silence by snark from the peanut gallery.

Dear Krait i want to make Dinner thank you for coming over . Have some of this special tea i made while start chopping the veggies for the stew .

Greetings and salutations.

I come to you today with a comment about the Living Story’s direction, though I know those are in abundance these days. What I’d like to do is hopefully a bit different. I would like to describe what the game would need to do in order to smoothly transition back to the war against the dragons. At present, that is impossible due to an incompatibility between players starting the Personal Story and those who have finished it, and conundrum which can be solved in a single sentence.

To make the Living Story flourish, the Pact must be destroyed.

…Bit of an attention getter, I hope. Allow me to spell on the argument; why the personal story has impersonal problems, what the living story is currently doing wrong, how to fix the two to the benefit of both, and what the results could be for an entire year’s worth of content. I can be a bit overly verbose, so I’ve condensed them into four JPG files for easier reading. Feel free to skip through it if it drags on, but please scroll through the NextYear file to consider what the Living Story could become.

Here we go. The Time Capsule method.

Edit: I’ve been adding to this post slowly throughout the thread, including several new campaign possibilities. For the sake of organization, I’ve added them on to this post. If this is your first time reading this, please beware, the last three images will get extremely verbose. Bring a glass of tea.

I think the hard part is that we collectively have a lot more time to post than you individually. Which is understandable, you are making a game and we are ravenously consuming it.

I think the summaries would be very helpful. It lets us know that our point was heard, even if it’s not adopted. The main struggle I had was with the apparent silence on your end.

Samuli.7852:

I’ve spoken to a few noble friends of mine in DR and they would love if you stayed with them, especially one lord, a dear friend. I’m sure you’d find the decor in his house a lot nicer than in that pirate cave…

Tragedy!

I appreciate your offer, and would love to see this “DR” place you speak of. But I made the mistake of returning to Lion’s Arch to gather a few things I had left behind when I fled. That’s when several of Captain Storyteller’s men spotted me.

I fled through the back alleys and swam through the canals to elude my pursuers. I wound up in a strange city square surrounded by several large purple circles. People were staring at me, so I ducked through one of the circles before they had time to get too interested.

Big mistake! Huge mistake!

My world disappeared and a new one appeared about me, filled with metal and stone and blinking lights. I stood astonished at my plight, and didn’t even notice when a squad of little long-eared folk surrounded me with weapons out.

These little people rushed me away to what they called a “detainment cell” and said I was exhibiting indecent exposure (whatever that means. I don’t have an indecent bone in my body!) Now I languish in fear that these people will delay me long enough for the Captain’s slow-witted thugs to pick up the trail. My only company is a strange talking bear in the next cell.

After a long time pondering whether to untick all the chat options in GW2 to literally become a mute and not see anyone’s comments anymore, I have finally done it – because I’ve had enough. I’ve had enough of hearing all the homophobic remarks online (And to be frank, I get enough of it in real life… I certainly don’t need it in a game as well).

Why should I have to constantly hear comments like ’that’s so gay’ and see players use the word ‘gay’ in such a demeaning, derogatory way? I remember when this word used to mean happy. But nowadays, society just accepts it as meaning ‘strange’, ‘weird’, or ‘wrong’. I don’t care if people see me as the latter, I just expect you to either 1) keep those comments to yourself or 2) at least allow me to fully block a player so I can get on with my gaming.

This brings me to my next point. A while back I tried putting a homophobic player on my ignore list (because I know that reporting him would have done absolutely nothing), however, his messages of hate still showed in the /map and /team chat channels. This was a huge dilemma for me because I WvW a lot, and I require those channels to see what the commander is telling us to do.

Now, a large part of why I play GW2 is to get away from real life. From all the hate, and from all the homophobia. It is my escape. I am so frustrated though because no one seems to care about how these hurtful comments damage people like myself. People even defend homophobes and their comments with things like ’it’s just a game, get over it’ or ’it’s just words’. Really? Have they even walked a mile in a gay man’s shoes? Have they experienced pure hatred and patronising comments for something they cannot change, on a daily basis? I highly doubt it.

Furthermore, no one from Anet seems to care about dealing with homophobia OR the ignore system (I give them a lot of credit for the rainbow themed weapons though – that’s really awesome!), especially when I pleaded for them a few months ago to change the ignore system to REALLY mean that it fully ignores a player’s comments (including map and team chat).

I know what you’re thinking, and you’re right, I can’t look into a crystal ball and predict any future homophobic remarks (but if you will step into my shoes for a moment and imagine hearing remarks on a daily basis that you’re not worthy of living, that God hates you, or that you’re weird/strange/wrong, it’s kind of hard to simply brush these comments off) – I’m not a mind reader either. What I do expect, however, is that when I do see comments that hurt me, I can put those players on my ignore list, knowing full well that they are dealt with – but even that isn’t possible, because ignoring a player doesn’t fully ignore their comments in all channels. At least, nothing has changed since that incident as far as I know.

I don’t want anyone’s sympathy, I just want change to the ignore system so that one day, perhaps I can tick all the chat boxes again, and most importantly, be able to listen to the commanders in WvW again, and know that when homophobia pops its ugly head again (because it’s not IF, it’s WHEN), I can ignore that player and their comments completely.

Till then, I refuse to have any chat boxes ticked, and I will have to remain offline/invisible until the ignore system is dealt with. Yes it hinders my game play, but it is the only way I can stay sane – it’s either that or being bombarded with homophobia everyday that I cannot ignore (not through a lack of trying either).

Yours sincerely,
frustrated player

Queen Jenna: Grand seductress and final villain of GW2

You heard it here first.

thefantasticg.3984:

Jon Sharp has stated in SOTG we are not to have too much control because it’ll scare off new ranger players. So, yeah. Suck it people who want more control.

Yeah, but I guess he never realized less useful and less damaging pets would “scare off” ranger players either.

Don’t blame the lottery, blame the uncontrollable urge to gamble, which you and only you can control.

Take responsibility for once. Don’t gamble, no one is forcing you to.

All I want is an option to create the final product after discovering it if you have all the materials. Takes just ages to do all the soups and fillings and whatnot before you get to the final product you want. Would that be too hard to implement?

The OP is answering its own question.

For people saying that getting new crap is “something to do” I really loathe your level of conditioning. Seems you learned nothing from Everquest, then, after a decade. You’re supposed to be playing a real game, not a slot machine. People actually demanding “rewards” and playing for stat baits have been turned into this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_ctJqjlrHA

With the only difference this pigeon is getting a NECESSARY and tangible reward. Not an ever inflating integer that equals to absolutely nothing.

We’ve been trying very hard to keep the faith over here in ranger land. Some of us harder than others. And I understand that development cycles for MMOs are slower than we eager gamers would like it to be.

But one of the most agonizing things is that we haven’t even received word. We haven’t had a developer or anyone come in and say that this is a legitimate issue—that ranger’s going to get some TLC or at least that -some- kind of plan to shape the class up is being worked on.

I was once infracted for “calling out” developers by asking for their attention by name, so I feel self-conscious of doing so again. But I feel that I must.

Could an arenanet developer please comment on the state of the ranger, any plans to tend to the class, and perhaps your intentions about the disproportionately nerfed crossfire?

I think I speak for most of us.

Please,

Othayuni