Guild Wars 2

Oh dudes, I made another list.
Leaps more gayishly this time

Oh dudes, I made a list!
Jumps for joy

Saiyan.1704:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Sagat.3285:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Saiyan.1704:

You’re all pointing fingers at the celestial amulet when it CAN’T be used for every class. Guardians/thiefs/mesmers/rangers Suck with celestial amulet while engis/eles/warriors excels with them.

Stop talking about the amulet. Talk about what these “op” classes have in common and why…

Just because something can’t be used for every class, doesn’t mean it isn’t too strong. That’s like saying… “Oh not every class can use Dhuumfire, therefore necros aren’t OP.” Same for Spirits, Hambow, Double Shatter, Double blasting Evasive Arcana, etc.

The amulet, combined with the runes and sigils is exactly what makes these professions OP in the current state of the meta. Both Engineer and Ele utilize these stats to the maximum potential, where as other class are falling short. If you want to run a hybrid/bruiser build, then good on you. But, a bruiser build shouldn’t reap the damage it does, as well as the sustain.

That was a poor response using class specific traits not open to all classes or specs… I see it two ways no one wants to play the counters because they are not conquest meta,are afraid of TDM,most of you play zerker but conquest forces you to tank AoE which both those specs has. See the issue there even I rarely lose when using a condi spec vs them because I refuse to focus on melee damage without being tanky and it is a usable weakness I rather have glass ranged like s/f ele or a good power ranger that won’t take the AoE. Sure I am not on point but why am I 1v1 him if I’m not going to cap it’s a team match not a forbidden duel.

Before celestial it’s you, your mentality and spec you are probably glass trying to stay on point vs a AoE semi-tank….dumb I wouldn’t be surprised if nothing change about them . Reintroduced the corruption necro and fix their team sustain as well as other boon hate specs. Uses your tools and brain no need to dumb down a mistake so many of you made.

Again poor response…..

TL;DR.

He said you listed class specific traits and that you had a very poor response and that I’m right in every way.
Yup that’s what he said yup.

Words from an ANET dev: “Celestial is too strong, and we will be looking at tweaking the current imbalances.”

You must be right in every way.

Sagat.3285:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Saiyan.1704:

You’re all pointing fingers at the celestial amulet when it CAN’T be used for every class. Guardians/thiefs/mesmers/rangers Suck with celestial amulet while engis/eles/warriors excels with them.

Stop talking about the amulet. Talk about what these “op” classes have in common and why…

Just because something can’t be used for every class, doesn’t mean it isn’t too strong. That’s like saying… “Oh not every class can use Dhuumfire, therefore necros aren’t OP.” Same for Spirits, Hambow, Double Shatter, Double blasting Evasive Arcana, etc.

The amulet, combined with the runes and sigils is exactly what makes these professions OP in the current state of the meta. Both Engineer and Ele utilize these stats to the maximum potential, where as other class are falling short. If you want to run a hybrid/bruiser build, then good on you. But, a bruiser build shouldn’t reap the damage it does, as well as the sustain.

That was a poor response using class specific traits not open to all classes or specs… I see it two ways no one wants to play the counters because they are not conquest meta,are afraid of TDM,most of you play zerker but conquest forces you to tank AoE which both those specs has. See the issue there even I rarely lose when using a condi spec vs them because I refuse to focus on melee damage without being tanky and it is a usable weakness I rather have glass ranged like s/f ele or a good power ranger that won’t take the AoE. Sure I am not on point but why am I 1v1 him if I’m not going to cap it’s a team match not a forbidden duel.

Before celestial it’s you, your mentality and spec you are probably glass trying to stay on point vs a AoE semi-tank….dumb I wouldn’t be surprised if nothing change about them . Reintroduced the corruption necro and fix their team sustain as well as other boon hate specs. Uses your tools and brain no need to dumb down a mistake so many of you made.

Again poor response…..

TL;DR.

Saiyan.1704:

You’re all pointing fingers at the celestial amulet when it CAN’T be used for every class. Guardians/thiefs/mesmers/rangers Suck with celestial amulet while engis/eles/warriors excels with them.

Stop talking about the amulet. Talk about what these “op” classes have in common and why…

Furthermore, if you tell a person or group of persons to “stop” doing something in a demanding manner, nobody is going to give two kittens about what you say. They immediately close off and label you as a kitten. You may have a valid point, to bad it’s going to fall short because you believe your opinion is greater than others.

Saiyan.1704:

You’re all pointing fingers at the celestial amulet when it CAN’T be used for every class. Guardians/thiefs/mesmers/rangers Suck with celestial amulet while engis/eles/warriors excels with them.

Stop talking about the amulet. Talk about what these “op” classes have in common and why…

Just because something can’t be used for every class, doesn’t mean it isn’t too strong. That’s like saying… “Oh not every class can use Dhuumfire, therefore necros aren’t OP.” Same for Spirits, Hambow, Double Shatter, Double blasting Evasive Arcana, etc.

The amulet, combined with the runes and sigils is exactly what makes these professions OP in the current state of the meta. Both Engineer and Ele utilize these stats to the maximum potential, where as other class are falling short. If you want to run a hybrid/bruiser build, then good on you. But, a bruiser build shouldn’t reap the damage it does, as well as the sustain.

To clarify my opinions even further —- Anything other than a power meta devolves more into counter-comping and less about the notable skill of players. Frankly, I can barely tell the difference from a low tier player playing cele ele, and a high tier one, other than the amount of might stacks they may have up.

This game already has a low skill floor (which is amazing for casual and new players), but the meta shouldn’t FORCE the skill cap to lessen. Which, if some of you haven’t noticed, is what has happened.

DeWolfe.2174:

DevilsGlare.7658:

this game demands mechanically well-rounded, and fast twitch game play.

No, no, no, no, and no. The heck with this fast twitch b.s. Watching a fight that last a few seconds because everyone is in Zerker is boring as heck. The longer a fight last, the more skill and precision is required.

To start, I don’t know where you’re getting this “last a few seconds” stuff. Power based comps consists of peeling, healing, damage mitigation, turtle strategies, as well as aggressive ones. It relies on your team working together as a whole to be successful.

This games base is built off of twitch game play, which adds an additional degree of difficulty to it. If you don’t know what twitch gameplay is, I suggest you look it up. Essentially, taking “twitch” out of the equation makes this a “turn-based” rotation (I’m saying this very loosely) and turning it into a game more in line with chess. It makes it easier for players, and casuals to play the game. But, it will deeply hurt the competitive community, and any dream to go big as far as the esports scene is concerned. Fact is, Celestial (+sigils and runes) allows you to take damage you shouldn’t have, and deal damage you shouldn’t be able to.

I fail to see your point, as well kitten many others. If you’re a user currently playing one of the builds, but you know you’re good. You will adapt. If you’re a user that is playing these builds and you’re scared for the looming change that will come…. RIP.

Josh Davis.6015:

Hey all,

I just wanted to let you guys know that your comments and discussions haven’t gone unnoticed or unread. The team keeps pretty good tabs on the forums, even if we’re not making a lot of regular posts over the holiday break. We had a number of conversations regarding the feedback found in this thread and others.

I don’t think we’re ready to talk about specifics right now (and I certainly can’t make that call on my own with everyone out of the office), but I figured you guys would like a little reassurance that we’re aware of your thoughts on the matter.

Josh

Appreciate the response, Grouch. Tons of people are taking the time to invest in balance discussions here. It’s nice to know it isn’t for nothing.

aussieheals.6843:

This is sad, sorry mate

Why is this sad? Unless I missed a less obvious troll here, I think he’s doing a great thing by allowing players to learn through his experience.

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but wouldn’t stat allocation provide the same thing celestial + sigils + runes already accomplish?

Most players differ in their opinions as to what direction they want the balance to go. I personally believe Anet needs to put their heads together and give the community guidance as to which direction they want the meta to go. If they did, we could see the progress being made, or the lack thereof. Granted, it’s a hard task, but it definitely would be a baseline to build off of.

ensoriki.5789:

Haven’t played game in a year just checking in to see whats up.

People still talking about Esports?
What the kitten?

Well, it helps when you have multiple 50k tournies, no?

Oh, sweet! Thanks, Grouch. ^^

3. Maintain your roster:

The longer you play with your team, the more synergy you will create. More often than not, this means X player will know exactly what your thinking in X situation. He/She will know exactly what to do, and when to do it, because you’ve practiced it a thousand times prior. There are tons of different scenarios in this game that require the use of “fast twitch” reflexes, and when it becomes routine, your task is easier to accomplish. You want to focus on maintaining a positive environment to promote growth, and room for change. Even if you’re losing, focus on fixing your mistakes. Instead of pointing fingers and beating yourselves up, ask yourselves what you could have done better in that situation/game.

Tips for maintaining a roster:

-Do your best to keep spirits high. Laugh about the beating you just received and push your pride/ego/kitten to the side. I know this is easier said than done, but it will help in the long run. There are many teams (top teams even) that have disbanded because they didn’t know how to take a loss. Focus on being humble, and this will be easier to accomplish.

-Prevent from pointing fingers too much, or belittling other team mates. If X player is dying too much, think about how you can help them sustain themselves. This is a team effort, and if you focus all your attention on one person, they may close off.

*-Keep drama out of the team. Seriously, this destroys teams. *

-At the end of the day, if one player just isn’t cutting it, or they can’t devote enough time to it, etc, etc, make it a democratic vote. Ensure that all players are on board with the decision to replace X player. Naturally, you will create friendships and bonds with your team mates, and kicking a player may tarnish that for everyone. It could be the beginning of the end for your team.

4. Scrimmage/record your game play.

This step is about finalizing your progress as a team. This is where your team sits back and reviews their past performances. What could they have done differently? Could they have rotated quicker? Is a strategy change required to beat X team? You may never understand the value in reviewing your own performance unless you actually do it. At certain points, you may actually ask yourself “WTF was I thinking in that scenario”. You have to be open to criticism and feedback to be successful in this community. Naturally, players will downplay and trash talk your team if they don’t recognize your names. This is ok, because all this really means is that a bunch of “no-names” just destroyed some players who have “earned their stripes”.

Tips for increasing overall team performance:

-It’s helpful when a player or two streams. Not only does your name start getting out there, but you can go back and re-watch vods, or even ask viewers for help. At some points, you may even get some top tier players in your chat that will guide you or help you out.

-The natural thought process is to not scrimmage the top team. “We’re going to implement this new strategy and team comp and blow the competition out of the water.” This mindset most likely won’t work. There’s tons of unforeseen circumstances that happens in games, and one of the few ways of identifying them are to actually put it to practice. So, my suggestion is to swallow the pride and scrimmage your competition. Trust me, it helps.

5. Screw a top team, you have your own now.

Just kidding…. Kinda. At this point, your name will probably floating around the scene. You may get team invites, or people will want to pick you up if you become a free agent. Just remember, there’s usually no team more fun than the team that brought you to this point. Maybe it didn’t work, or your team had to go it’s separate ways. But, if you’re considering leaving your team for a better one, keep it in the back of your head that the grass may not always be greener on the other side.

This guide was a little general, I wrote this after a night shift and lost a little bit of energy halfway through. Nonetheless, I hope this helps. Keep your heads up, and good luck to you all!

2. Start small:

Most people have the mindset that just because they can win all their fights, and they’re mechanically sound, means they should be on a top team, with top players. Unfortunately, this is an exception to the rule. Very rarely do you see someone new to the scene that is adopted into the competitive players’ community right away. So, what does starting small mean? It means playing with the people you enjoy, or humbling yourself, and joining those players you don’t really think are that good. Believe it or not, this is where you’re going to learn the most. You begin to understand the concept of basic strategies, rotations, and team synergy. Playing as a team is less about yourself, and more about the win. Where should you be when X is happening? What is your primary role to fill? What can YOU do to help your team? These are all simple questions that you’re expected to answer once you join/create a “top” team. I’ve personally faced many new teams that look more like they’re WvW’ing than playing Conquest. Don’t be these people. Different teams will have different strategies. Just because your strategy/team comp isn’t “meta”, doesn’t mean you should stop running it. Practice it, and make it work. Be proactive and learn your counters, and then learn how to react successfully to your counters. One day, your team is going to create the meta, and that’s an extremely successful feeling.

Tips on starting small:

-Sometimes, it’s good to run what the top teams are running to get your feet wet. Copy, and replicate what they do, then understand why they do it. The more over-all knowledge you have of the game will benefit you in the future.

-This is the phase where you learn how to synergize with team mates. Simply understanding the best positioning, rotations, and CD management can help your team secure a win. How can you peel for a team mate? Who do you synergize with well in small skirmishes? Can you clear a team mates conditions? Or, can you apply enough counter pressure to effectively peel? What is your primary role for your team, and how can you fill that role? Ask yourself these questions, and learn to apply them in game.

-Even though this is all for fun, sometimes you have to run what the team needs you to. If you only want to run one build, then you may actually become detrimental to your team. Generally, competitive players have fun winning, so they don’t care what gets them the win, as long as they get it. This point alone may help some of you understand that the competitive scene isn’t for you, and if so, there’s not a kitten thing wrong with that. At the end of the day, you have to enjoy playing the game. Whether that be beating the top team at the time, or slapping people around in hot joins.

Note: Don’t accept negative behavior as the norm. There are tons of teams who have been brought down by one player being continuously negative. If you can’t convince the player to be more positive, then it may be time for a roster change. You will NOT beat every team when you just start out. Take note of your progress, and learn what it takes to win.

For the past 2 1/2 years players have been continuously asking the same question: “How do I become apart of a team?” Fortunately enough, there are mechanically sound players who want, and have the ability to invest the time to become a competitive player. While competing at a higher level is no easy feat, it is an extremely rewarding experience. There are tons of different ways to go about joining a team, but I’m going to supply you with a tried and true way of doing so.

1. Be mechanically sound:

This step sounds simple, but it goes further than beating the average hot joiner or solo queue player. With whatever class/classes you play, you need to be able to compete against the standard meta builds in rotation. In no way does this mean you need to win every 1v1 you encounter; nearly every spec/class has it’s counters. What this does mean, is that you need to focus on optimizing your build in team fights, small skirmishes, and 1v1’s. Being bursted down in a matter of seconds because you’re facing your counter isn’t a viable excuse. In a team based environment, you need to sustain yourself until you receive a rotation to you, or be able to successfully peel out of the fight with surviving.

Tips to increase your mechanical ability:

-Hot join/Unranked/Ranked. This may sound silly, but playing in hot joins increases your over-all map awareness. Naturally, you won’t receive any help from your team mates in this environment (if you’re going solo), so it’s up to you to sustain yourself to win your encounters, or simply survive them.

-1v1’s: This may sound obvious, but it’s one of THE best ways to improve your own abilities. My recommendation is that you continuously go heads up with whatever meta builds are current. You need to solidify your game play against your counters, as well as the fights that are easy for you to win. In a higher echelon of competition, nearly no fight, is an easy fight. Some of the best players that are around today have spent hours dueling friends and/or competition to hone their abilities.

-Watch streams/guides: If you’re having trouble dueling X class, then watch someone else who plays your class. See what they do, and how they do it. If you’re running a build that no one else runs, then it’s up to you to learn how to implement it. Maybe one day, you’ll be the one writing the guides or streaming.

Note: Remember, LOS (pillar humping) and resetting are widely used tactics to win fights. This game is about conquest (time), so you should learn to manage your time wisely. There are tons of builds/classes that you just don’t want to go heads up with, so remember to use your environment to the best of your advantage.

@Dylan – You know what, I totally agree with that. Most, if not all MMOs have always struggled with balance. Lets just say the celestial meta isnt too fun.

@Dudis – Tbh, I think celesital amulet is great for casual players. I think the playstyle it embodies really has no place in a competitive scene.

@Isslair – In your opinion, what is the reasoning for GW2 not becoming an esport?

@Aeroxe – Fair enough, bud. You’re right.

@Olrun – Did you mist the part where I said those were his issues as of 2 years ago? Olrun, you ride competitive players so hard I almost couldn’t tell who I was talking to. Stay in your lane, hot shot.

I clearly said his performance and that of his teams puts me to sleep. ZZzzZZzzzZz.

Chaith.8256:

DevilsGlare.7658:

The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

^If anyone has a high opinion of their plays and strategies, thinks they’ve been around the block and would beat those young whippersnappers at the top now, that’d be you, who suggested the 2-1-2 strat that imploded the universe.

If I have come across arrogant and superior sounding it wasn’t my intention, but you’re down there with me, especially after engaging me in this conversation lol

Can’t, friend. Currently in Korea, therefore I’m a “non-compete” for the NA scene. If you didn’t know, I’ve been here for the past 2 years (which is why our team disbanded).

I’ll be competing in EU shortly, upon my arrival in Germany. Hopefully you’re still around after this whole celestial deal. I wouldn’t miss the chance to show you what you really are. It’ll be like the old days. Stay small, Chaith.

“I’m above you all.” -Queen Chaith 2014

Chaith.8256:

DevilsGlare.7658:

because you happen to be defending your “godlike” rotations as of these days.

Lmao, you use quotation marks but I do not think you know what it means. I have never claimed to be “godlike”.

It’s clearly an attack on your arrogant, superior, holier-than-thou attitude. It’s what you’re portraying Chaith, you don’t even have to say it directly.

Chaith.8256:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Chaith, I have no problem with any team’s rotation tactics. I understand the strategy right now, it’s nearly aligned with out-cheesing your opponent.

I’ve read through this entire thread, and there have been points that you’ve specifically stated you need 2-3 celestials to be successful at a “top” level. Essentially, you need the sustain across the board to compete at this level, otherwise you’re going to be annoyed to death by one of the Cele users.

Question, Chaith. Why is it you’re defending this meta so heavily? Is it influenced by your earnings at WTS? It’s impossible for me to ask you to look at this from an objective standpoint, seeing as you earned however many dollars utilizing the cheese. I don’t blame you for using it, you got the W. Play to win. But, for you to run across this thread with the underlying arrogant and belittling attitude you have towards other people that don’t agree with you, is completely laughable.

If you haven’t figured it out, it looks like you’re defending what made you money. I think at this point, your voice isn’t being heard. So, unless you want to be looked at with a critical eye, I would suggest a different approach or to remain silent.

Doesn’t bug me if nobody believes me when I say: Actually, the this team runs X amulets", based on the fact that my team wins, and has 3 Cele amulets on it. I could go on about you being a GW2 old timer who’s opinion isn’t been relevant since the Jurassic period, but then I’d just be sinking to that level.

I don’t want to discuss anyone’s personal agenda. To people who have some impression that what people write in this box is to influence balance change, and defend/enable them to win cash, no, that’s weird.

I just enjoy discussing the facts on what strategies/comps are actually succeeding, capable of succeeding, and why. Also I will pretty much always speak when somebody is saying inaccurate things about what teams are running what. And the Bird of Fire’s posts are great for that, so when I pop back on the forums, I’m always busy.

Lol, I am an “old timer”, Chaith. And this old timer remembers how completely irrelevant you were for the first 2 years of this game. Your biggest issue? Your attitude, and your inability to rotate properly. Which is ironic really, because you happen to be defending your “godlike” rotations as of these days.

It’s no accident you became apart of a winning team the moment celestial amulet became a thing, really. I’m humble enough to admit you’ve always been a solid engineer mechanically. But, my team could always rely on you overextending and being out of position to snowball a fight. Good thing you’ve got celestial on your side, eh?

NeXeD.3042:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Another question, Aaron. How would you know it requires better rotations than any other before when you didn’t play in all the previous metas?

“Google”.

My guess is the old meta didn’t have 5 very mobile classes on every team.

D/D ele, mesmer running aggressive portal plays, and GS warrior was part of our team comp. We had tons of mobility.

Chaith may want to believe these 2-1-2’s are a new thing, but they’ve long since been in practice from before he was accepted on to a team. Running 0-1-4 is a completely viable strategy when played properly by a team that builds to play it. The problem with Chaith’s mindset is that the talk of nerfing cele is an exact counter to his teams strategy, so of course he feels the need to defend it. No player/team should attempt to forcibly put players in a position to play this game one way, which is what the underlying concept is.

To further sink my point…. AL vs Sync in NA Quals. AL was forcing Sync into a 0-1-4 team fight situation in which Sync wasn’t equipped for. AL knew how to team fight, and they did it better. I gave Sync the QT strat to run a 2-1-2 on Legacy, then to force small skirmishes out of spawn to prevent the regathering of a complete team fight. Sync ended up winning the NA Quals to head to Paxx in Seattle. But, alas, nobody has ever ran 2-1-2’s prior to this meta. Lul.

Another question, Aaron. How would you know it requires better rotations than any other before when you didn’t play in all the previous metas?

“Google”.

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Chaith, I have no problem with any team’s rotation tactics. I understand the strategy right now, it’s nearly aligned with out-cheesing your opponent.

I’ve read through this entire thread, and there have been points that you’ve specifically stated you need 2-3 celestials to be successful at a “top” level. Essentially, you need the sustain across the board to compete at this level, otherwise you’re going to be annoyed to death by one of the Cele users.

Question, Chaith. Why is it you’re defending this meta so heavily? Is it influenced by your earnings at WTS? It’s impossible for me to ask you to look at this from an objective standpoint, seeing as you earned however many dollars utilizing the cheese. I don’t blame you for using it, you got the W. Play to win. But, for you to run across this thread with the underlying arrogant and belittling attitude you have towards other people that don’t agree with you, is completely laughable.

If you haven’t figured it out, it looks like you’re defending what made you money. I think at this point, your voice isn’t being heard. So, unless you want to be looked at with a critical eye, I would suggest a different approach or to remain silent.

Every meta in this game has been coined “cheese”, I don’t think ANet will be able to balance it to where everything is that close to equal
Celetsial Meta- Skill-less Cheese
Bunker Meta- Skill-less cheese
Condi Meta-Skill-less cheese
I will admit i was not around for much of the power meta, that being said I have heard the myths and legends so i will assume..
Power Meta (HB warriors and insta kills)-Skill-less cheese

As far as calling this strategy cheese? The current 5v5 requires better rotations than any meta before… the old fashioned 1-4 was easy kitten compared to this meta.

I wouldn’t quote Chaith just because he said so. Our team was pretty successful back then, and ran multiple strategies. 2-1-2, 0-1-4, 1-3-1, and sometimes we wouldn’t even cap home but snowball far and mid to force a triple cap and numbers advantage. No, it wasn’t just a standard split back then.

Chaith, I have no problem with any team’s rotation tactics. I understand the strategy right now, it’s nearly aligned with out-cheesing your opponent.

I’ve read through this entire thread, and there have been points that you’ve specifically stated you need 2-3 celestials to be successful at a “top” level. Essentially, you need the sustain across the board to compete at this level, otherwise you’re going to be annoyed to death by one of the Cele users.

Question, Chaith. Why is it you’re defending this meta so heavily? Is it influenced by your earnings at WTS? It’s impossible for me to ask you to look at this from an objective standpoint, seeing as you earned however many dollars utilizing the cheese. I don’t blame you for using it, you got the W. Play to win. But, for you to run across this thread with the underlying arrogant and belittling attitude you have towards other people that don’t agree with you, is completely laughable.

If you haven’t figured it out, it looks like you’re defending what made you money. I think at this point, your voice isn’t being heard. So, unless you want to be looked at with a critical eye, I would suggest a different approach or to remain silent.

theoutsider.7849:

I actually like this meta. It’s not perfect, but its the best we’ve had so far and I’d watch this meta over Spirit Ranger, Hambow or boring Guardian “teamfight at mid” clusterkittens any day. The power meta at this games launch which you pointed out was horrendous and a big reason why the majority of veteran WoW players left the game after trying it for a couple of months.
You guys seem to be so unhappy with this, without realizing that at any point during any meta people were be unhappy with it.

And it’s gonna stay that way because Arenanet is never going to achieve the perfect balance. It is simply too hard to achieve.

TLDR: People will always be unhappy with anything that happens in games such as this because everyone thinks they have the best grasp of the mechanics, balance and everything else.

Most players from that generation quit due to a lack of rewards system, tournament scene, and bug fixes. As a matter of fact, MOST of the competitive players that played during that time frame, want it back and wish it had never moved into the direction it has.

I’m not sure if you know this, but they had absolutely nothing available for players during that time frame. In terms of leaderboards, ranked queues, etc.

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

theoutsider.7849:

They did a good job giving counterplay to Pindown and Point Blank Shot. Perhaps its time to give counterplay to Overcharge Shot/Updraft/etc except for “oh he’s running towards me now, he might overcharge, let’s random dodge”

+1

dylan.5409:

There have been several good posts on how to shave ele and eng without gutting the celestial amulet (and I hope they do).
That being said, this game has too many instant abilities/ broken mechanics to allow for a power/zerker meta without sidelining the majority of proffs imo.
Currently the only proff’s that can play zerker are thieves and mesmers (if they have support) and im not sure a bunch of zerker builds insta ganking each other is more entertaining than what we have now.

Well, we had the heavy power meta about 2 years ago. Indeed there were ganks to be had, but more often than not it literally came down to which team had the most map/situational awareness. “I just burned this ele’s last stun break, spike target in 3-2-1.” This was actually the meta where tons of teams were starting to utilize rez utilities as well. At times, it came down to something as clutch as one team’s necro making a “heads-up” fear on the incoming rez sig. Generally, you couldn’t over extended. Teams had to make pushes together, as a team, and synchronized. Now, people just run around do whatever the kitten they want with no fear of the reprecussions. I think every class has tried and true dps builds.

ResJudicator.7916:

IMO, the current meta celestial ele and celestial rifle engie builds take way more skill to play than the previous meta builds (spirit ranger, hambow before adrenaline nerfs, dhuumfire necro). So I’m not sure I agree with the idea of celestial carrying bad/average players to the top of WTS and other tournaments.

That said, I agree with the idea of making games more interesting to watch, with room for “big plays.” But I think big game-changing plays need to come more from map design and game-mode mechanics. For example, a lot of the big “exciting” plays in tournament games right now revolve around clutch lord rushes or treb shots (and, if spirit watch is ever added, orb caps). These are things that viewers can see coming, and the risk/reward is very apparent.

I don’t think you’ll be able to create exciting big plays through balance changes alone. Watching two zerker thieves fight, for example, isn’t particularly exciting and mostly boils down to sigil procs.

You know, I contemplated listing every broken class/build that has come to light since I’ve began playing this game all this time ago. I figured it wasn’t worth it. While I would agree it’s not as “facepalm” worthy as spirit rangers or hambow warriors, it still is extremely painful to watch and play. But, I do agree with your opinion geared towards mechanic changes. Although, I’ve always personally believed you should fix balance first, then anything supplementary after that.

Amir.1570:

The DPS portion of celestial is fine, the defense portion needs a nerf. It has 800 more stats than a typical amulet so the stats definitely need shaving.

I think at the very base of it all, celestial amulet could be “okay” in concept. But, with engi’s and ele’s might stacking as high as they do, it promotes continuous power creep the longer the fight goes on. It’s really a broken mechanic that’s being abused way too much. If celestial amulet was just defensive in nature, I probably would have no problem with it.

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

That thread happens to be full of salt. Seems to have went to finger pointing pretty quickly :O.

KarinaCO.6948:

DevilsGlare.7658:

I made that into a seperate thread, I was just asked to post this here as well. Forgive me. TL;DR at the bottom.

I agree with nerfing celestial amulet, but my argument was that it should not be removed completely which was the topic of this post

I don’t crunch numbers, or theory craft in my free time. Tbh, I just want a fix. If all it took was nerf to celestial, I would take it.

I made that into a seperate thread, I was just asked to post this here as well. Forgive me. TL;DR at the bottom.

Alright, I’ve read plenty of posts here that demand the nerf of the classes that abuse celestial amulet. While I completely agree that cele is out of hand, I’d rather point out my own thoughts as to why the meta needs to shift. No salt, or waterworks.

With all of the prior cash tournaments, and the future ones to come; we as a community, have to go off of the assumption that Arenanet would like to continue to push towards the dream, “Esports”. I would like to lay that as the ground work because this is 90% of my argument, and where I base my ideas off of. If that assumption is confirmed as false by Arenanet, then null and void any of the posts concerning “balances”. So, here’s my thoughts:

A game that is striving to become esports needs to be a spectator sport. Many streamers, and competitive players have said this time and time again. While everyone has their own thoughts as to how to make this better, I will make it simple. The game needs to be exciting to watch. Viewers WANT to see the “oh kitten” moments and the “heads up” plays. Celestial amulets and bruiser builds don’t cater to the exciting moments to be had in this game. More-so than most, this game demands mechanically well-rounded, and fast twitch game play. When one player/team beats another, it SHOULD be based off of them being better than the other player/team. Celestial amulet is so forgiving that it doesn’t truly matter if you dodge or mitigate damage, you can simply face tank it. For the past two major tournaments (WTS and All-Stars), I have fallen asleep while watching the stream due to general lack of captivation. Big plays, get big views. Honestly, golf has more exciting plays than Guild Wars 2 right now.

My goal here isn’t to flame anyone (despite popular belief), or belittle the community. But, let’s be real, players who were considered low to mid tier are now bathing in the light of e-fame due to celestial amulet alone. Reserve the cash tournaments for the players who dedicate endless hours to being better duelists, and team players. These are the type of players who spend hours attempting to be mechanically flawless on their zerk builds because one mistake, or mis-timed dodge, may be the end of them. These are the guys I want to watch, and these are the guys I want to root for. The groundwork for an amazingly competitive game has been laid, but it’s almost as if it’s being ignored so as to appeal to casual players. At the end of the day, I should want to strive to play like my favorite player, or team. I shouldn’t be able to pick up the controls and be playing at the same level as these “top tier” players within a matter of days, or even hours. Granted, some classes/builds have naturally lower skill floors than others, but what I’m asking is for Anet to raise the skill cap.

I’ve been very ambiguous in this thread, so I apologize for not coming with the “solutions” to the problem. Frankly, there’s a ridiculous number of ways this meta can shift into something more constructive for the e-sports scene. There are tons of more intelligent players than I that can dish out multiple approaches for change. If you wanted help, I’d give it. But for the past two and a half years it’s been less about listening to the community, and more about being too prideful to admit defeat. Put your hands up in the air, ask for help, and apply feedback.

TL;DR: Nerf Celestial Amulet.

Alright, I’ve read plenty of posts here that demand the nerf of the classes that abuse celestial amulet. While I completely agree that cele is out of hand, I’d rather point out my own thoughts as to why the meta needs to shift. No salt, or waterworks.

With all of the prior cash tournaments, and the future ones to come; we as a community, have to go off of the assumption that Arenanet would like to continue to push towards the dream, “Esports”. I would like to lay that as the ground work because this is 90% of my argument, and where I base my ideas off of. If that assumption is confirmed as false by Arenanet, then null and void any of the posts concerning “balances”. So, here’s my thoughts:

A game that is striving to become esports needs to be a spectator sport. Many streamers, and competitive players have said this time and time again. While everyone has their own thoughts as to how to make this better, I will make it simple. The game needs to be exciting to watch. Viewers WANT to see the “oh kitten” moments and the “heads up” plays. Celestial amulets and bruiser builds don’t cater to the exciting moments to be had in this game. More-so than most, this game demands mechanically well-rounded, and fast twitch game play. When one player/team beats another, it SHOULD be based off of them being better than the other player/team. Celestial amulet is so forgiving that it doesn’t truly matter if you dodge or mitigate damage, you can simply face tank it. For the past two major tournaments (WTS and All-Stars), I have fallen asleep while watching the stream due to general lack of captivation. Big plays, get big views. Honestly, golf has more exciting plays than Guild Wars 2 right now.

My goal here isn’t to flame anyone (despite popular belief), or belittle the community. But, let’s be real, players who were considered low to mid tier are now bathing in the light of e-fame due to celestial amulet alone. Reserve the cash tournaments for the players who dedicate endless hours to being better duelists, and team players. These are the type of players who spend hours attempting to be mechanically flawless on their zerk builds because one mistake, or mis-timed dodge, may be the end of them. These are the guys I want to watch, and these are the guys I want to root for. The groundwork for an amazingly competitive game has been laid, but it’s almost as if it’s being ignored so as to appeal to casual players. At the end of the day, I should want to strive to play like my favorite player, or team. I shouldn’t be able to pick up the controls and be playing at the same level as these “top tier” players within a matter of days, or even hours. Granted, some classes/builds have naturally lower skill floors than others, but what I’m asking is for Anet to raise the skill cap.

I’ve been very ambiguous in this thread, so I apologize for not coming with the “solutions” to the problem. Frankly, there’s a ridiculous number of ways this meta can shift into something more constructive for the e-sports scene. There are tons of more intelligent players than I that can dish out multiple approaches for change. If you wanted help, I’d give it. But for the past two and a half years it’s been less about listening to the community, and more about being too prideful to admit defeat. Put your hands up in the air, ask for help, and apply feedback.

TL;DR: Nerf Celestial Amulet.

Oh mt………………

/w Acandis I thought Backpack wasn’t on the list cause he’s bad.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Gonna sticky this so you guys can always find it.

D’awwww Sharp, you go girl!
Jon “The Mack” Sharp strikes again. <3

Thieves have other skills than heartseeker?
Where have I been?

Seriously though, all I do is smash two on my thief.

Thieves don’t suffer from this quickness nerf as much as people make it out to be. NA thieves haven’t been using it since pistol whip got nerfed back in the day. It was just never needed.

I think everyone agrees on warriors. While it does take away from what they can do now, it was needed in order for them to actually get warriors up to par. Quickness, imo, has no place in Spvp. All you warriors will shine one day, but nerfing quickness was needed to get to that place.

Does anyone else happen to remember the days where quickness would win team fights? The team would get decimated in normal team fights, but as soooooon as that timewarp came into play… It turned into alternating team fights with timewarp. Lame.

Smart move, ANET. I commend you.

Mrbig.8019:

DevilsGlare.7658:

mursie.3681:

just played against a scepter/dagger ele that was bunker spec with cantrips. wow. can’t even remotely dent him and his dmg is nothing to sneeze at..and ranged..

I can’t kite him to try and widdle down for a burst shot. just completely outmatched. if you try a surprise burst… mist form. if you try to trick-shot till he is widdled down for a burst….his range on scepter/dagger will actually out dmg you and his attunement swaps and double water heals (triple actually with evasive) has his health not even moving..

I literally just have to walk away.

Know what my team used to do?
-Chain our bursts together.
I would call out a burst on the ele knowing he would burn mist form. Then our thief or warrior would jump in the fray executing a full unhindered burst. Never failed, always worked. This game isn’t about 1v1’s. I can’t think of too many match-ups in a tourny where a thief should be 1v1’ing a ele anyways, other than by random chances.

my point is exactly this.
you focus burst, the ele pops up mist form, the thief bursts him and we’re all happy.

but what is going to happen when you throw another ele in the fight ?

here when you were about to stomp, the ofher ele comes, updraft and ress the ele back, with mistform ress if you’ re trying to interfere.

in order to do so, you were 3vs1 the ele, now you’re 3vs2 with all your burst on cds against 2 eles.
you won’t kill them and you can’t stay there because you’re outnumbered elsewhere and would lose too much time in order to win the fight.

assuming there are more eles in their team (my feared “full eles”team), the other ele will quickly join the fight and you’ll lose OR those eles will go where you’re outnumbered, since you can’t be faster then them, unless you’re running the same comp.

without quickness, you can’t force stomps, neither you have enough burst and dps to kill a potential ele team.

again, I’m waiting for the first team using 3-4 eles in a single team and statring to dominate, I give you 1 week ar max as soon as they release the ladder.

Someone already mentioned this, but if your a thief and your not poisoning a downed target, then to be honest, you shouldn’t be in here complaining. A thief that poisons a a target that is downed while consistently cluster bombing that target will not allow the person to get rezz’d. If the ele blows mist form to go for a clutch rez, then doesn’t get it, makes for quite an easy kill 2v1.

Your simply trying to throw out ridiculous scenarios in order to reinforce your point, while forgetting that there is always two sides to every coin.
I played this game at a top tier level and won consistently, and we were arguably the 2nd best team in NA.

TOP TIER THIEVES IN NA DO NOT USE HASTE.
Get over it.

mursie.3681:

i guess that is my problem.. always has been. I want a team game scrim but with the hopes that everyone is equal and anyone can kill anyone. I.e. counter-strike. Your team scrims another team…but you can individually kill any one on the other team. Not some bullkitten where “oh he is a ele… i’ll have to just leave and give them the win”

I guess i wasn’t cut out for games like this.

Unfortunately for yourself, most games are going this route. You can’t truly compare an MMO to a FPS and think that’s a fair comparison…

Example: LoL, some match-ups just can’t be won without proper support or set-ups for ganks.

mursie.3681:

just played against a scepter/dagger ele that was bunker spec with cantrips. wow. can’t even remotely dent him and his dmg is nothing to sneeze at..and ranged..

I can’t kite him to try and widdle down for a burst shot. just completely outmatched. if you try a surprise burst… mist form. if you try to trick-shot till he is widdled down for a burst….his range on scepter/dagger will actually out dmg you and his attunement swaps and double water heals (triple actually with evasive) has his health not even moving..

I literally just have to walk away.

Know what my team used to do?
-Chain our bursts together.
I would call out a burst on the ele knowing he would burn mist form. Then our thief or warrior would jump in the fray executing a full unhindered burst. Never failed, always worked. This game isn’t about 1v1’s. I can’t think of too many match-ups in a tourny where a thief should be 1v1’ing a ele anyways, other than by random chances.