Showing Posts For Drachshyish.2319:
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Somehow I think that many thinking the necro are uber face the same things I saw on the mesmer forums when a guy bragged about doing a 1v4, probably not realizing that those 4 happened to be far below lvl 80 given the crap amount of dmg they did.
Yeh, I can kill below 80s with my eyes closed since they hit me for like 200-300 dmg whereas I hit them for several thousands, anyone can do it – even with a semi-broken class. Mostly broken due to bugs and messy trait lines and generally low dmg/short range where it counts. Rifle warriors outdamage any axe necro at twice the range and hitting more than 1 target with ease, I mention axe because that weapon has similiar skill sets to a rifle.
I’d say that most other classes with zerker builds will outperform the necro… with ease.
Lifeblast is good, but is so easy to avoid… and if you meet up with decent dmg dealers your lifeforce will be zilch in moments, possibly soon after you’ve gotten of 1 Lifeblast.
Only the most overeager people will fall for wells, and many can avoid em even after dagger 3 through a variety of skills.
Your short range and lack of closers will get you focussed down first as well in any group fights.
The best you can expect is a few kills due to people underestimating your dmg output and generally being inexperienced in dealing with direct dmg necros. Most of the time you will get stomped flat.
But then again I am trying hard not to just dump my necro and play a class that actually gives something back for the effort I put into it. Right now, I am kinda disappointed…
I might be somewhat skewed in my perception of this but hey here goes…
So, finally gathered up the stuff for my powermancer build stage 1. Full Soldier gear with zerker orbs in it, zerker axe and focus, zerker and knights jewelry. With Food my crit chance is nowhere near where i’d like it to be yet so, but I do reach +80% crit dmg and somewhere in the 40s crit chance and 3.2-3.3k Attack, maybe more.
I can crit for 1k-1.2k with autoattack with lots of stacks vulnerability… Ghastly Claws can go up to 7k rarely… Lifeblast generally hits for something like 4-5k, sometimes more. All this at 600-900 range. With Might and Vulnerability these attacks is…
Later I redid some stats for my warrior and ended up at +57% crit dmg and some 40% crit chance and about same attack as my necro. And with a rare Rifle in a non-rifle build I regularily hit for 1k with his autoattack + bleeds on that, 7-10k on Autofire and 10-15k on the burst skill and thats at 1200 range which can be traited to pierce. And thats while keeping over 2.6k armor as well…
Somewhere in all this there is something that is very unfair towards necros. I have better gear on my necro and a more focussed build and yet the warrior who is not even traited for maximum performance with rifle outdamages the necro at a longer range with a rare-class(ravager stats and lvl 78 at that) weapon that can hit multiple targets far more reliably than the necro can. Cause DS is not a reliable dmg alternative given that the dmg gets worse on lifeblast if the necro gets hit, which he will at that range to, and the projectile is easier to see coming.
Despite really really trying to like the necro, I constantly find that it gets outperformed in every area by other classes.
It is not number 1 in conditions, except for spreading them to other targets which pretty often is a misfire in my experience.
Direct dmg it is pretty kitten far from being number 1.
Survivability it is also pretty far from being number 1, without Invulnerability skills and mobility an extra healthbar can only do so much… make us last a few more seconds that is, when most other classes can escape completely. Dark Path is not a viable option for mobility, it can be dodged so easily its silly.
The minions still suffer from a stupid AI, and are pretty kitten useless vs mesmers and thieves… Can tear a new one in many others though… And dies alot in WvW.
Overall in WvW necros are pretty much secondrate in every area, if not thirdrate. No matter how well you play you can never reach the same heights as other classes in any area.
Bad trait lines, buggy skills, lack of mobility, DS UI, low dmg, short range, slow projectiles, easy to avoid wells, lack of boons… “please hit me” elites in which you have to toggle kitten to even autoattack… How much crap do we have to take really?
Me being allergic to glasscannons was toying around with the idea of a build that is still tough and can still dish out alot of hurt. I want people to think “Ouch, was that a necro that just killed me or a freight train?”. Being able to take a few hits is paramount in WvW after all with no escape skills available or other avoidance stuff other than DS which is unreliable in my experience…
Was gonna hear with the community if there is such a thing before I start experimenting and waste hours upon hours of time with boring dungeons.
Sure, I do agree that it can become very powerful in very rare instances with no cap. But no more so than thieves hitting for 19k with a backstab, which someone supposedly experienced.
Especially in WvW where many thieves can have permanent stealth due to the culling issues… which of course is a whole other problem.
I main WvW, not sPvP or tPvP. Finding that your recently spread Epidemic just vanishes instantly is very common, all it takes is one bunker ele or guardian with the right stuff and poof.
And to top it off… 150 dmg per tick from bleeds with 1800 condition dmg and 10 stacks of Might. Getting much better than that is rare indeed. So most direct dmg builds do actually out damage a condition build quite easily in PvE. Especially at lower lvls than 80.
I still maintain that the bleed cap is complete bullkitten, and will always do so. Not even Bas’ and Bhawbs arguments can sway me from that viewpoint given that they dont agree with the math ive done or my experiences ingame.
You’re not at full power at lvl 80 in AC… Barely at a quarter of your power…
Kinda disappointed over necro weapons across the board. Staff projectile is so slow people run away from it, it does not home in on targets either so staff autoattack is more like a melee attack than it is ranged. Scepter being the most viable weapon suffers from LoS issues and to short range(IMO)…
Axe is to short ranged for its dmg capability and one target only hit radius. Either increase dmg and add cleave to 1 & 2 on it and maybe shorten the range further or increase the range to get it into line with what it is.
Dagger is just meh IMO… Necros are to squishy in general to go toe to toe with our foes… Could use increased range on the autoattack.
Yeh… when you actually hit that Epidemic before the target dies and spread 15+ stacks of bleeds around… Sweet times. Target tends to die before the animation actually plays out in my experience, all it takes is one more person hitting your target out of nowhere for your timing to be messed up.
Cap on Bleeds is just utterly and completely silly… Amongst other things because it is a condition and can be wiped away with the press of one button for most classes, poof 25 stacks of bleeds gone with one button push… Thats alot of dmg and many skill uses for the condition build that just gets wiped away, direct dmg dealers do not have to deal with that at all.
The only reason that condition builds are semi-viable is because not everyone packs condition removal.
Still all the cap does is gimp condition builds who already suffer against many bosses and such, them being objects(having yellow healthbars)… And objects cant really be hurt by a condition build who derives their dmg from things that dont affect objects.
Other than that, power builds still outdamage condition builds even if you can keep up 20 stacks of bleeding on your own… And even if you are a whole party where everyone keeps up 20 stacks for a total of 100, five power builds will still outdamage the conditionbuild party.
A deleveled 80 does not have better health, armor or DPS than a char that just meets the lvl requirements if that latter char has decent gear. More traits yes, better overall stats no… Especially since the only stat that a lvl 80 can have better is crit chance, since that doesnt downscale quite as heavily… but that stat is still going to be near that of someone who has the same focus.
First time I did CoF 1 was as a “speed run” with all the skips and such and I had just hit 75 and didnt even have very good gear. I carried myself all the way and the only time I got downed was at the acolytes, even running the stones I did way better than everyone else that had more experience with the dungeon than me.
All it took from the rest of the players was 1 minute explaining a few things… Entire run took less than 10 minutes. And my raw dmg output, pretty kitten near the other warrior in my party, higher if counting the time he spent downed.
Dont expect to be carrying lower levels, because most of the time they handle themselves pretty well. Sometimes a lack of experience in a dungeon will cause them to fall at a place they shouldnt and need a bit of help… Guess what, now they have learned something.
CoF hates my warrior, I cant use Whirlwind everywhere…
See how silly your argument is, sure you cant spam Death Blossom, spam Heartseeker like every thief in WvW for instant win instead.
Condition stacks per person though, while it would work, it would be easier achieved by removing the cap altogether since 99% of condition builds cant maintain 25 stacks by themselves.
As my esteemed fellow necros said… We dont stack 25 bleeds on a target by ourselves unless just about everything procs or some Mesmer Time Warps us.
Direct dmg over conditions… A warrior can hit for 5k DPS pretty easily, a zerker warrior will probably vary in between 2-7k+ dmg every second… A condition build with pretty much max stats will have bleeds hitting for 150-160(with 10 stacks of Might) dmg every second at most and can sustain 15-20 bleeds on their own, which all take alot of time to apply, and thats around 2.2k to 3.2k dmg every second. I’d say any zerker character wins in dmg output, now group 5 of those and that dmg will be much higher than a group of 5 bleedbuilds even without a cap.
Now add in that many powerbuilds have ways to further increase their dmg output with Might, Fury, Vulnerability and Quickness and their dmg will skyrocket, whereas a Conditionbuild gains very little from these things other than Might.
And well, if we can spread those kitten-ton of bleeds with epidemic, cool, maybe the community will finally come to respect necros as bringing something to the table that other classes just cant equal or exceed… which they can with most things right now.
And this would mostly just affect PvE anyway, which is not a competitive area. Hell grinding dungeons is just plain boring, at least to me, and I am forced to do it over and over again just so I can get gear so I can then do what I find fun – WvW.
Honestly not that much of a time improvement over most more or less PUG groups i’ve ran with with varying builds on all. Maybe 2-3 minutes earned if everything goes smoothly. Sure it adds up over time.
Most players you meet for dungeons already have an 80 and/or have several alts of varying lvl. Sometimes in a blue moon you get a complete noob to the game which can be tricky in the low lvl dungeons like AC and CM… By the time anyone hits lvl 50-55 they should know the ins and outs of their class, maybe not all the tricks but they should know how to best maximize what they bring to the table.
I was a complete noob with my ele, and to this game, and still did better in fractals than quite a few lvl 80s. Assume peoples skill after you see them play, and hell maybe they will be better off after seeing you play. Experience adds up, whilst hearing elitist bullcrap just pisses people of and makes “you” sound like a moron to more savvy people.
Taken from a discussion over at the necromancer forums… Some might be out of context.
Yeh… But conditions arent instant… Sure I can apply a bleed that hits for a total of 16k over 1m via Blood is Power… How much dmg does a power build dish out over 1 minute? Answer is probably around several hundred thousand.
The cap only gimps condition builds while making power builds alot better. Conditions never crits for one… My warrior who is by means a zerker can do 15k easily two or three times over with Hundred Blades at the same time our second most powerful bleed runs it course(Enfeebling Blood), especially on an almost stationary target like a boss.
Sure Condition builds stacks bleeds and other hurty conditions so that over a long period of time we can maybe equal a power build in PvE, but with the cap and the way stacking works we will never equal them in effectiveness if there are more condition builds in the group. Which in turn actually limits the effectiveness of condition builds in PUG groups for dungeons, whereas power builds are never limited…Sure… If we get a group of condition builds and we have a cap of 100, which we will never actually reach since most bleeds die out in a few seconds and if we do hypothetically 10000 dmg every sec with our 100 bleeds… How much dmg would a full group of power builds do every second, probably way more given that most power builds can hit for 3-5k every second which would equal 15-25k as a group.
The cap is utter and complete bullkitten, it serves no purpose whatsoever.
Actually… Dont even bother finishing reading all the posts here. The way the de-leveling works for dungeons now makes it so that taking a lvl 80 in full exotic for a lower lvl dungeon is probably less effective than taking someone who is closer to meeting the lvl requirements if that person has decent gear.
Did a comparison with my warrior way back when he was lvl 55 vs a lvl 80 warrior in full exotic and we ended up at basically the same stats only that my lower lvl actually had more HP. And after the change to how the de-leveling and up-leveling works that difference should be skewed even more in favor of taking those that are closer to the level requirement of a dungeon.
And even in fractals I did better with my once lvl 30 something elementalist than most did with their 80s, might have been due to skill rather than stats though, survived longer, dodged more, kept aggro better…
The lvl 80 requirement is elitist bullkitten…
Asking for experienced players though is understandable, but in the end it works against you since at the start everyone is a noob. Better to train and give sound advice to that inexperienced person than to just ignore them so that in the future there is a bigger pool of experienced players to choose from.
And just because someone does not have experience with a dungeon does not mean they are bad at playing their class, with some general advice before a hard battle they can maybe even prove to be better at it than you yourself. And all it takes is a few minutes longer for the dungeon run.
Especially given that most elitists are so very bad at the game given they focus more on others kitten than their own, met elitists who wiped at the Wraithlord Crusher and Hunter in Arah 3, bosses that I could solo after running that path once.
Yeh… But conditions arent instant… Sure I can apply a bleed that hits for a total of 16k over 1m via Blood is Power… How much dmg does a power build dish out over 1 minute? Answer is probably around several hundred thousand.
The cap only gimps condition builds while making power builds alot better. Conditions never crits for one… My warrior who is by means a zerker can do 15k easily two or three times over with Hundred Blades at the same time our second most powerful bleed runs it course(Enfeebling Blood), especially on an almost stationary target like a boss.
Sure Condition builds stacks bleeds and other hurty conditions so that over a long period of time we can maybe equal a power build in PvE, but with the cap and the way stacking works we will never equal them in effectiveness if there are more condition builds in the group. Which in turn actually limits the effectiveness of condition builds in PUG groups for dungeons, whereas power builds are never limited…
Sure… If we get a group of condition builds and we have a cap of 100, which we will never actually reach since most bleeds die out in a few seconds and do hypothetically 10000 dmg every sec with our 100 bleeds… How much dmg would a full group of power builds do every second, probably way more given that most power builds can hit for 3-5k every second which would equal 15-25k as a group.
The cap is utter and complete bullkitten, it serves no purpose whatsoever.
Yeh… Think of spreading 15 stacks of bleeds across all mobs around.. Thats over 2k dmg sustained across 6 mobs every second… Pretty nice IMO. And thats just spreading bleeds, you can spread every condition.
Problem in WvW is the fact that those walls makes many of our attacks miss outright… Those walls, seriously…. They break LoS alot…
Just an example, the Veteran Archers can plink me but I cant hit em with my scepter because they are obscured… If only Epidemic was instant cast instead of the very long animation I would be alot happier.
Well, I am of Gunnars Hold EU…
Thanks for invite btw Bas.
Gonna represent when I am not doign WvW with my guild… Put me up for Corpsewalker or Flatliner, still learning the ropes for good WvW necro though… Kinda hard actually, compared to the bouncing classes(everyone else). Heh, we really are slow as a heartattack by cholesterol.
Might actually give minion necro a shot, once I finally gather my soldier set…
Might take awhile, after lasts weeks rush to get full rabid after having a hybrid build im kinda tired of dungeons. (Not to mention spending 50g+ on cultural armor to make my charr look even decently kitten, is a pic in the thread up in the stickies.)
Epidemic is my mainstay… use it as often as possible, which in WvW is not as often as id like mind you. I mainly WvW, and its tough being a necro there. Just had a pretty decent night of WvW though so Im happy.
More of our attacks cleaving shouldnt lower our dmg though… Necro and Warrior with equal Power will not even closely do the same amount of dmg no matter the weapon… And I basically consider axe to be melee, 600 range is one Heartseeker away or any of the other gap closers all melee classes have.
Axe needs a slight dmg boost, 10-20% and it needs to cleave… If I have to give up the 600 range for something closer id take it. Right now I feel axe belongs at 900 range(and scepter at 1200)… Just my opinion though.
If nothings changed regarding cleaving and dmg I think Axe range increased to 900 and dagger to 600 is pretty fair.
I wouldnt mind some escape skill to… When the rest of my party runs away i’m always left behind to get caught, very impossible to escape speeding thieves and eles especially with a ranger pewing away at you… Very hard to escape many other classes as well, necro has the worst mobility in the game – just a fact.
I am mostly quite happy with necro though, even if I get alot of frustration due to current meta and all the glasscannons utterly smashing me apart even with full rabid gear.
Well.. I have a slight issue with dying in WvW… Mostly cause running over half the map takes bloody ages.
Once and for all… Are minions still stupid as brick wall?
And how does it go for WvW?
What necros do is not as clearly visible as what other classes do… Conditions hit over time, there is a cap on em which limits the number of stacks there can be – alot of wasted DPS if there is more than one condition focussed build on the team.
In many cases it seems that what necros are intended for is not quite as effective as was intended to start with.
Seemed the most appropriate place to put this topic since it is in dungeons it is noticed most.
Why oh why is there a condition cap? Makes absolutely no sense what so ever.
All it does is limiting the number of condition focussed players than can be in a group to 1 or at most 2… There is nothing that limits direct dmg builds the same way.
It should be removed asap, it serves no good purpose.
Condition caps should be removed to… there is absolutely no reason to have them other than to gimp condition builds in dungeons, punishing a group for having more than one or at most two player focussing on conditions.
In my experience you put alot of effort in and dont get as great results as with other classes. Its not exactly that necros arent good, its just that they are kinda easy to shut down if its a condition build…
Minions, sure… If they are not as dumb as when I tried em. Because they just ended up dying without doing anything… (Should one go Power for minions, to get better dmg out of them?)
Necros cant escape… If you are being run down by something, you will get caught. Beyond having more health with Death Shroud necros have poor survivability with the lack of invulnerability skills, escape “oh crap” situations and such.
With a slight boost in direct dmg and a working over of some of our weapons, staff projectile, axe dmg and limited hit radius… Spectral skills looked over to work out the bugs and get more oomph… The auto-get traits need to be looked over as well, Death Magic forces way to much minion stuff on ya for one. Traits overall, you have to spread em alot to get the stuff you might want and need…
Love necros, but there is alot of frustration involved in playing one.
Engineer is not made for the current meta at all. Same with Necros. Its why they are the rarest of all classes to see in WvW for example. There goes about 4 warriors, 4 thieves, 3 guardians, 2 rangers, 2 eles and 3 mesmers for every necro and engi in WvW, fair estimate methinks.
Engis can get good dmg if they sacrifice their versatility by going grenades… They are still for the most part only using the ‘nades after all.
And a few skills can hurt like hell… mostly engis are just speedbumps in WvW, like necros. 1v1 they can be pretty hard to take down though, a rifle engi totally stomped my warrior for one. Couldnt close with the engi on my terms, and Supply Crate is friggin’ win in small fights.
Personally still debating if I should continue lvling my engi or let it rot on the char screen… Because the last thing I want is another fully geared lvl 80 that feels useless for WvW compared to most other classes.
Good post ManCaptain… Should have read that first since I agree completely.
So maaaany posts… My points…
Necros has a very AOE strong condition build. With Mark of Blood, Grasp of the Dead, Enfeebling Blood and Epidemic. Problem is that there are classes with very great condition removal which makes them basically immune to anything you can do… Eles and Guardians. Just today I saw my 10+ stacks of bleeds I just spread around vanish after ticking twice on all 5 targets…
Necros cant burst, and currently in many areas of GW2 burst is king.
Direct dmg necros are very weak compared to other classes. My hammer warrior can hit for 2.5k on an autoattack crit, and that toon has some excellent control skills and 3k armor to boot. What zerker thieves can do is pretty well established by now…
Elementalists can also bring a kittenton of hurt down on you and still have a great deal of versatility. Even rangers, with all their bashing, can put out a great deal of direct dmg hurt.
Lifeblast for a powermancer can do a smashing amount of dmg though. Wont even scratch the paintjob on a warrior if you are not very high in power though.
Many utility skills are buggy or to weak if not traited for… and/or have way to long CDs. Spectral Armor, 90seconds for 6(5?) seconds of Protection… Just not good enough.
Minions… Can be devastating, if they behave well. More often than not they just stand around looking goofy or run around attacking everything but what they should be attacking. Adding some control, like what the ranger can do with their pets would be nice.
Necros are still fun for some odd reason while still being frustrating to play. Generally in WvW I feel more like a speedbump than a threat, and that is the area of play I prefer in this game. With all the thieves running around though, death is just around the corner.
Necros need polish, and quite a bit of it… Trait lines are at best messy and many traits just feel pointless. Direct dmg needs to be brought up, especially on the axe which also should be able to hit more than one target, in the current game environment direct dmg beats condition stacking which gets cleansed pretty easily. And to boot it is way faster.
Necros are OP against… noone really. When a necro win and seems OP, its because the opponent totally underestimated him/her or forgot that 10-15 stacks of bleeds tend to hurt pretty bad and some glasscannons tend to forget to bring their condition removals.
Necros are far better in sPvP and tPvP though, compared to WvW where necros tend to be very very subpar with their lack of defensive skills and mobility.
Kinda agree with LezardValeth.
In my experience its just that mesmers tend to bring very little condition removal to the fight… Makes them easy pickings for a condition necro, and if that mesmer thinks his clones and illusions fool anyone in a 1v1 he is sorely mistaken, very easy to keep track of the real one when you’ve loaded him with conditions.
Other than that, no necros are hardly OP. We cant completely face kitten anyone in a few seconds even with all our cooldowns unless we totally well-bomb them, and few fall for that trick.
Even when I played a hybrid with crappy armor I pulled aggro like crazy…
Not sure here… But it might be the conditions stacking up doing insane amounts of damage… thereby stealing aggro…
I face the same problem… Tough mobs go right for me most of the time, especially bosses and champs. In WvW and the guild supervisors its explained by the fact that noone else even hurts em except for our bleeds.
Either that or ANet really has it in for necros, like every other MMO company. Necromancers do tend to be a very low tier class, at least in the MMOs ive played at the time I played em, very weak class.
Seems promising…
Best bet… Do not PUG fractals, and in few cases dungeons to. There are so kitten many people out there that think they know best, know how to play all classes in the best way and generally think they are the best thing ever to plop out of a uterus.
Kinda new to the mesmer and wondering if there is a good leveling build for them around, where to put traits, what weapons to use for seemingly endless amount of mobs making our lives problematic… (I know there is a search function, but it generally hands me squat)
Ya know a fun build that does not make leveling to 80 such a pain…
Many thanks in advance.
Although I would love a thread where all good builds are posted without useless comments spamming it… Cause right now, finding those supposedly awesome builds with tips and tricks is hard… Saerch function usually giving a bunch results that dont help.
Necros have 1 immob on dagger… thats it… maybe some pets do as well dont know. I ran pets for a time, found that they stood still and got killed by everything without doing any good and never looked back.
We dont have alot of blinds… Dagger 4 and Well of Darkness, Plague… Blind disappears after 1 attack… When someone is hitting you 3 times a second or so neither will help much.
What I see most on forums are people on one side pointing out flaws and sometimes glaring holes in the mechanics of a class… The other side that say everything is perfect who also say that noone but them apparently know how to play the class.
The latter often being elitist jerks with no idea about anything, either that or they play thieves and just want to mess with the rest of us:P
The fact is, necro trait lines need to be looked over. For example Death Magic forcing minion related traits on you even though you have to specc it to get a usable staff…
DS UI sucks balls… plain and simple, no condition or boon tracking. Big skill bar in the middle of the screen.
Plague and Lich removing oh so many things they should not touch…
Axe being so lackluster in dmg(wouldnt even mind a shorter range(melee) if it only cleaved and did a decent amount more dmg)… and hitting only one target for that tiny amount of dmg. Gotta like the 3 skill though, it rocks.
Oh yeh… My necro tends to get focussed by boss critters like 70% of the time… And there are only so many tricks you can pull out of your hat when bosses gives you the evil eye with all their CC and heavy hitting attacks.
Eles pretty much beat necros across the board on all things then… They hit for more direct dmg, they can heal way better, they bleed better and they got some pretty nifty utilities as well… Pretty boring elites though, would love to keep that greatsword around for a long time, say permanent… it rocks.
My hammer warrior regularily hits for over 2k dmg on autoattack… Can bring 4k knockdowns and then keep you down. So dont say that you lose dmg cause you take control. I stomped a fully geared thief with him after I let him hit me for 50% of my health. Granted, dmg is way higher with GS – but hammer still hits like a truck.
And yes DS can hit pretty hard, but out of it necro attacks are laughably weak… And DS is utterly useless if you arent specced for Power which IS WHAT I SAID in my post.
And besides, Lifeblast is slow cast so not very bursty… Not very long range, 900 is ok though.
And I can think of way more classes if built for power outdamages a necro easily so those rankings you are pulling right out of your imagination.
And me bringing up sPvP… every class do well there if played right. I manage 1v2s with both engi and necro there being no issue…
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