Guild Wars 2

Elric.2730:

SNFU mesmers,

This is why we roll you whenever we see you. You act cool at 1st but sooner or later your kittenness comes through and you add on a fight, and STILL get your kitten handed to you. I mean, really?

For the record, we’re very cool.

For the rest of the record, the scenario played out as follows (our POV, of course, which seems like it’s different from your POV):
I duel you. I win. Yay me. But because we’re really cool and because OINK is from my experience cool, you revive, we /bow, /salute, /whatever and mutual respect is reached. Then IoJ shows up. Then DH shows up. Fighting ensues and IoJ dies. DH remaining 3 (4?) follow OINK toward DR spawn from center ruins. SNFU disengages. OINK /w’s that remaining DH are wiped. SNFU decides to go see. SNFU finds OINK dealing with a solo upscaled. Dealing is the incorrect word, but we move on. SNFU reengages. OINK wipes SNFU. SNFU revives and /w’s good fight. OINK gets upset and posts on the forums.

I know you have no problem fighting an upscaled. You don’t have problems fighting more than 2 80s. Now if it’s the jumping without /bowing, I can understand your concern. But c’est la vie when we’re limited to forum posts and emotes.

I still like like fighting you guys, even though I don’t know you. I don’t mind at all that this sort of thing has happened between both guilds in the past, pretty much always having OINK come out on top. Oh well for us. I enjoy the lessons.

Any way it plays out, I look forward to the fights. Maybe even on my somewhat retired main next time.
If you have anything else, I’ll ask you submit a formal report to a SNFU leader of my choosing.

(As for cheating—that kitteny kitten needs to stop. I haven’t ever seen public acknowledgement by anyone of what’s going on and why it’s going on, but like Tuluum, if I see or hear of it it gets reported. DH has seen too much kitten to deal with people tarnishing our reputation for a few extra digipoints or digilootz.)

Toodles

Fizzlepip.5218:

So DH goes their BL to kitten them off in turn.

Probably the best thing I’ve ever never said.

Anjo.3170:

There are people on DR who also brag. In fact in this thread there is this:
“Fizzlepip.5218:
Darkhaven’s overwhelming 70+ zerg loses to DR’s small (but basically godlike) roaming but not playing for points party!:
Followed by a bragging youtube video. Once again, DR can do something but DH cannot.

Mate. I’m on Darkhaven. I was facetiously pointing out that DH doesn’t always have the largest zerg. Not by a long shot. I was also quietly bragging at how my Confusion stacks were ruining people.

The points are pretty basic:

1. DH fields more players than the other servers (note: because we’re winning. If we hopped up a tier and got slammed the first week, the population would drop dramatically. Fairweatherhaven, you could say.) and wins the point tally because of it.
2. DH pretty much owns EB. Lots of zerging. DR and IoJ steer clear in even their peak hours, though they put up good fights with those they have. Both servers absolutely do field zergs as big as the DH at times. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose.
3. DR is more vocal on the forums than IoJ
4. A few of the most DR vocal take on groups much larger than theirs. If they win, it’s because they’re superior. If they lose, it’s because the zerg was too big. DH has some great players and small groups, but they’re not as obvious. Note that the fighting tends to happen around the ruins between two (very close) spawn points and two highly contested towers. OINK is solid and always fun. asdlkjQQasdlkjaf alliance is solid too but they find it just as enjoyable to gank fewer numbers as any other zerg (in my experience). Note also that a 30v5 is just as silly as a 6v1. HARD in IoJ hits like a semi if you give them a chance. There are plenty others but my list ends there.
5. DR kitten es DH off on the forums. So DH goes their BL to kitten them off in turn. Avoid trying to reason out playing for 1st, 2nd, 3rd with the various independent zergs doing different things without any consideration to point tally.
6. Smaller DH groups do beat larger DR or IoJ groups. Just because it’s not you 3/4/5 people perma-foruming doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
7. DH has worse coverage than AR/ whichever else was mentioned, despite what some (ahem) people who “play in T5” think. Trust us, it wasn’t that long ago that our Monday afternoons brought utter despair at how all the weekend’s hard work yielded nothing better than a huge deficit and an entirely owned AR map.

That should just about cover it. I too look forward to a Tier mixup. Maybe these completely misconstrued arguments will dropped.

Elementalist Owner.7802:

I’m simply proving the DH who believe that they win due to tactics wrong.

I can’t remember the last time someone from DH posted about winning due to tactics. You guys are arguing against what you believe to be an argument that hardly exists. Nearly all (if not all) of our counter-posts seek to give examples of how DH doesn’t always field the largest zerg—which is what it seems your guys’s arguments are. But maybe we’re all just arguing against skewed versions of the other server’s. Because at this point that’s what it seems like

Oozo.7856:

There are just as many, if not more, DH there in your screenshot. Next time cover up the minimap so we can’t see all of the green dots.

/shakes head

You fail to understand the point. It’s not the size of the DH zerg, but the size of the DR zerg. Every post from DR is about how much larger and unstoppable due to size the DH zergs are. The photo—alongside other posts—show that that is hardly the case. You guys field similar numbers at times (repeat: AT TIMES—so don’t go spitting some misleading argument vs. what I didn’t actually say) and get pushed back/ stomped/ beaten likewise. Face it: DR has giant zergs too. It’s WvW. Numbers, luck, tactics—all included with proper descending order for everyone involved. That includes everyone that thinks they only lose to some sort of perma-zerg.
/end of logic. Because I can guarantee that it won’t reappear here.

Anyways, great fights with some OINK and EDGE DR guys in IoJ BL tonight. Had some sort of weird unspoken truce going on t not engage when numbers were lopsided either way. (I was a soloer tonight.) Still learning my Mesmer, but looking forward to more fights with everyone willing to put up a good one.

Gazden.5479:

@PD, Thanks for the fun guys. Great fights.

+1 SNFU! The ruins battle was lots of fun.

Davrollen.8935:

When am I going to see those equal numbers? It seems I’m always being jumped 1v4.

1v1 isn’t enough to kill your tanky kitten The fights go on… and on… and on…

Almostfaceman.1804:

Are you DH (if the shoe fits, wear it) going to keep saying this every time we manage to pull together some numbers and catch you in a bad situation?

No. At least not if people in DR concede that zerging (albeit definitely more lopsided on our side) is a two-way street. He(kitten)ll, even after that video people (ahem) are still claiming equal numbers. But there’s no hard feelings—I posted the video playfully and by no means mean to insult the zergers and non-zergers alike. I just ask for a little less selective self-awareness is all.

Almostfaceman.1804:

It just is what it is, and until Anet – or IF Anet – does something to even the playing field a bit, the large pop (on more hours) will dominate the field.

As for this? Sadly, they won’t. Every time ANet makes a change in WvW, it only seems to promote zerging and large numbers.

Sepsis.1564:

Let’s have some good small man action tonight… sPvP is nearly not as much fun as open world PvP

Always game. Though after a few rounds I get tired of getting OINKstomped

Gab Superstar.4059:

Sorry, but defending a sieged up hills in Lord’s room with equal numbers for an entire minute?

a) over an hour at the keep
b) it’s pretty clear that there are nowhere close to equal numbers

Gab the more you say the more you reveal yourself to be nothing more than a loud troll severely misguided person. Because you actually believe what you say.

Darkhaven’s overwhelming 70+ zerg loses to DR’s small (but basically godlike) roaming but not playing for points party!

…Well at least the hour of badge farming in your East Keep was fun.

Tots.3056:

Yeah, and you can count our 17 dots on the minimap, but we also had another 6 people on the tower wall, so we obviously outnumbered that 30 man Zerg

You miscounted. There are 22 dots.

And their AoE max targets of 5 counts little against your 2 (visible)-6 on the walls with 50 targets max siege. I’d say that that close to the tower, you had the upper hand.

Though they should have thought of that before bothering…

Not me. Stuff it

If it’s not a waste of your time I’ll do one round before I have to log.
If it is /friend me and we’ll do it tomorrow or another day.

I’m a Thief, btw.
You got about 5 minutes.

dreztina.4820:

If it helps, I’m not at 100% atm, so you may actually have a chance to beat me now. Surely there’s at least one person confident enough in their ability to tell me to stuff it and then back it up?

If you’re part of the DR zerg in IoJ BL, you won’t find a challenger. I seem to remember just getting whacked by Vapor Blade a bit harder than most d/d Eles seem to ever hit for…

I’m up for it tho.

Spam pushing me into the water. Good move. Bummer move.

Looking forward to some more battles v. OINK

Also, to follow up, the reason many of us are so offended by this pervading sense of “DH zerging” (which is entirely justified as a “fun” way to play the game and—according to everyone’s rules of “fun” WvW play—should therefore be off limits to the “fun vs. not fun” criticism) is because we put in so many hours trying and trying to work (as a server with what few people we’ve had on for so long) to establish our remaining core skilled vet players. Then to have that turned around of our faces when we get a large crop of new recruits and called “zerglings” when we haven’t been for so long/if ever until now…

After all. We lost in our first round against GoM/HoD. We had a skeleton of a WvW server and it took us weeks upon weeks upon months to get this kind of coverage. How dare people use it against us.

Maybe that’ll help clarify.

Dynnen.6405:

Trust me when I say this

you don’t have coverage issues at all

Trust me when I say this:

For now… against you guys… in T6… no, we don’t. You’re absolutely right.
Against everyone else, yes.

Even now, fairweather WvWers are growing tired. There was an influx in the beginning when we were winning and shot up a tier, and then that respiked when the update came in. But point tally (as always on DH, reflective of numbers) has dropped a bit. Which isn’t to say at all that you guys haven’t put up better fights, but rather that DH is and always has been a PvE dominated server with WvWers trying desperately to fill maps and eventually growing tired and giving up (see patterned history of Tier jumps and drops).
Believe me, this won’t last. That’s the point we try to get across to you guys. The zergs, the tallies, the—as DR likes to put it—“lack of skill” comes from a vast number of players that are here to enjoy a ride that is already slowing down.

Coverage is really just a perspective thing, and you guys are all on the wrong side without much history. Those of us that have been on DH since day 1 know that 3 weeks from now could put us on the bottom of the tier becasue 75% of our fairweather zerg finds something better (Super Adventure Box) to do. I hope it doesn’t—we have lots of fun players showing up that are learning quickly—but it’s undoubtedly possible.

So please don’t go telling us that we don’t have coverage problems. You guys have been here 2 weeks. Perhaps now we don’t, as everyone loves pointing out. But consistent coverage problems have destroyed our WvW population twice, and there’s no reason yet for us that have witnessed it to believe (we hope, though!) that things have changed permanently.

killahmayne.9518:

Darkhaven kind of puzzles me a little bit, and I am not trying to talk kitten. From a numbers standpoint, they really do not belong in this tier because they do easily outnumber devonas and IoJ. They don’t have the greatest coverage but it is definitely better than IOJ and DR. I feel that they don’t belong in any tier, or their own tier (if there was a tier 5.5) because if they were to move up a tier, they would probably get demolished. If they stay here, we probably are their best match up for them but clearly they should not be here because of their population, they would win everytime they are matched up with devonas and IoJ

And it’s true. DH right now is a Tier to its own. We dominate population in T6 and therefore dominate T6. T5 sees better population than us and better overall WvW play. 5.5 is exactly where we are.
But we do belong in this Tier, because when the T6 “post-AR departure honeymoon” is over, we’ll be much more evenly matched (if not undermatched with our lack of higher Tier experience to fight against IoJ and DR’s own).
—my 2 cents.

Great fight with an unguilded d/d Thief in DR’s BL just now.

Had him running until he used an NPC to invis up and heal. Great overall play, kind of gimmicky 1v1ing.

But that’s how WvW goes! Let’s have a great week all.

Urrid.4593:

bradderzh.2378:

Around lvl 5-7 on a number of alts (yeah I ain’t gonna stop playing them all just because Anet wants me to)
It’s a broken system anyway. Just got to rename karma farm to Wxp farm and we are good to go.

Anet missed an incredible opportunity to reward the guys who defend those camps, buff those yaks, build oil, and all those little things that make those wooden structured turn into actual fortifications.

A million times this…. THIS!

Yep.

Also, I’d like clarification on why this is player based and not account based? I’m sure it’s out there somewhere…

Acelerion.6820:

Sorry bro, if you /wave at us or something well let you go next time. We found that letting people be just gets us added on later so we stopped doing it.

Plus we spend all night running to, around, through, and from zergs so we developed more of a kill everything in sight attitude.

No, honestly I’m a firm believer that you should kill me as soon as you see me. WvW is a PvP thing after all. Now ANet’s problem with making <80s even remotely competitive (which they’re not) is another thing entirely. I know I’ve leveled this guy purely out of zerging, which means my armor is very under par until I get to 80 and which makes we weaker than a “well geared” 56.

So yeah, it’s not anything. The way I see it, keep killing anyone you see. Just saying that PvP areas are PvP areas. That means that people’ll ultimately compare themselves to you and /laugh, /cry, /anything that they feel like doing. People ultimately kill you when they see you. And that’s how it goes. That’s they way it’s supposed to go. So it’s frustrating for me, but good that you guys do something that doesn’t adhere to this weird sense of sportsmanship that sides develop here in lower tiers.

Yeah, people /wave or /salute or /whatever on both sides. That means don’t bother. But if someone /waves to you but you want to fight… kitten fight them. Laughing is weird, but it’s allowed. I don’t do it specifically but don’t condone it either. Put up with it if it happens and move on. WvW is PvP in a large scale, after all.

So yeah. I’ll see you guys out there on my main. Hope it’s a good fight!

Running around IoJ on my 56 alt trying to get vistas and POIs but get slammed by a group of OINK and NoQQ 80s… twice. Second time I stayed well clear of them but they chased me down.

Now that’s fine and all. It’s a PvP map. I get that getting kills is fun and part of this part of the game. Matter of fact, I’d probably have done the same if the player didn’t /wave at me first.

But when we question DH’s class, remember that this is a PvP map and that all is allowed. Someone /laughs at you, find them and hunt them down. Otherwise, don’t complain. (By which I mean, PvP maps are what they are. Deal with it.)

Have fun with the anti-culling zerging and kills I know I will. (Look forward to some battles on my main with you guys in that group haha)

Niim.9260:

This would require thought and effort. The WXP system was done with the bare minimum of thought and effort.

Many times this.

Seems to be a recurring problem, doesn’t it?

This whole zerg thing also favors servers in descending order: highest Tiers will inevitably get the best ranks, even though that has little (if any) reflection on the individual it’s supposedly ranking. Poor Ferg people I guess.

irishhaf.1692:

Im surprised nobody managed screens, or video of DR’s stand in Garrison lord room… dead bodies everywhere… loot bags left to fade away because bags were full. Kudos to DH for still charging in despite the slaughter… went on long enough for me to die and run back to the fight.

haha. We were astonished at the numbers we were fielding in an opponents BL (guess lots of PvEers wanted to check out the patch last night… it was amazing having that many people around being that enthusiastic) so we decided to go for it. What a great stand you guys made

pixieish.9627:

snipped

Yeah, that was a rough time you guys were giving us. I was just able to get that treb up in time with some really helpful people running supply (the tower had 0) to bust those catas up. You guys really made us work for that defense. I really think that if the people that stayed around after had stayed around a little bit longer, they would have capped SW tower. We were completely drained of supplies and were chasing what seemed like 4 different groups of DR/IoJ around to prevent them from capping towers or backcapping our supplies as soon as we could.
And yeah—that waypoint at Bay saved us, really. Only got supply to the tower to keep getting carts up by waypointing there from all the other places we had to get to and grabbing the full supply that it had.
Keep it up!

JarXLite.6720:

Great to see DH’s “weekday player dropoff”

/sarcasm

Patch happened. Get over it.

Holy cow. The population in WvW tonight is exceptional. Not sure I’ve seen zergs this size… ever.

pixieish.9627:

snipped, sadly

Great post. I’ll ask around if Xill doesn’t figure it out. Good to know a Guard can hold his/her own against Eles and Thieves and be classy through it all.

Kyuzo.4675:

New WvW armor cost is quite affordable also.

Gar! Where’s the armor at?!

Kanthar Turambar.9164:

Confirmed above to be a typo. Necros cannot siphon life from walls.

K, thank you.

Um.

“Necromancer trait: Now allows life-stealing on walls in World vs. World.”

What?

After all the things they’ve slowly not let us do to walls/with walls/against walls while in combat that benefit our play… they sneak this in there?

Tuluum.9638:

How I would structure a 40 person zerg:

It is split into parties, with 5 people each. Specific party composition is also important, but a different topic (as a guideline though, each unit is self-sustaining). Each of those five are doing exactly what you are saying. In other games, the numbers change, but its the same basic idea (I used this in EvE, but that was with hundreds of players, so it was a bit different). The only difference is, they are coordinating with eight other teams who are doing exactly the same thing.

I don’t want to bust your chops on this one, but that zerg would fail to a disorganized-but-for-the-fact-that-we’re-all-stacked-together zerg that spams AoEs. Trust me. I’ve tried commanding the former but come to realize it’s simply less effective. Because sure, you could be coordinating in your 5 man group, but beyond that you’re just spamming instead of concentrating on the intricacies that I mentioned.

So yeah, there are infinitely more variables. But those variables don’t matter. It’s basically: stick together, spam skills, blast into water fields, spam skills, revive downed, spam skills, spam skills, spam skills, etc.

…Although I guess part of the problem is how we perceive zergs. I’m here talking about 1) a mass of people encountering another mass and acting as a current WvW meta acts vs. 2) Darkhaven’s history of zergs breaking down to skirmish in 1s and 2s spread out over a large battlefield.

1 beats 2 on the field every time. Every time.

Acelerion.6820:

But none of this takes the person into account because at this level people are largely interchangeable. If you can follow someone and mash buttons you are 80% as effective as anyone would be in the same role.

On the other hand, small group direct pvp combat offers a wealth of complexity due to the timing, precision, and communication needed. Small choices you may not even know you made can be the difference between winning and losing.

This.

Drop two 40 person zergs on top of each other and you’re not concentrating on the intricacies of the battle as much as you are with a smaller scale fight. There isn’t timing, there is only hoping. You simply cannot account for 40 people at once, and they’re certainly not accounting for you. It’s attack-that-area-of-people-and-hope-your-zerg-is-better-at-zerging-than-their-zerg.

(God I wish we could put up consistent 40 man zergs vs. 40 man zergs.)

Smaller scale you pay attention to the individuals. Ikittenv5, (edit: wtf? that’s: in a five-v-five that got bleeped out…?) for example, I’m watching each person I’m fighting. I’m assessing what classes they are and who I need to keep constant tabs on (Thief invising up running to me; the Mesmer moving irregularly… because losing the real one in the crowd sucks; D/D Ele channeling Churning Earth; Warrior switching to Hammer; etc.), seeing who’s healing when, who’s dodging when, who’s revealed from stealth, who’s channeling, who’s on me and who’s on my teammates, who’s low on life on their team and who’s low on my team, who’s downed and who’s reviving… and then all those things for myself included. You simply don’t do that in large scale fights. It doesn’t work that way.

That’s why smaller fights are so much fun, and why it gets frustrating when the game can sometimes react slower than you. Hairsbreadth moments make all the difference.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Do you expect me to base my posts on anything else but my personal experience? Do you expect me to research every guild on a server before posting?

That’s why I say “from my point of view”. I cannot possibly keep track of everyone on a server, but what I have said about DH so far has been representative of what I have seen from them.

---

I don’t engage in 1v1’s or GvG’s, and it’s funny when it comes from people who say what I do is not real WvW. Are 1v1’s or GvG’s “real” WvW? No, so why use it as some kind of measurement of skill? The most important aspect of being good at zerg busting is knowing the lay of the land, using it to your advantage, but most of all assessing a situation and acting accordingly. None of these things can be found in a closed GvG situation. That is why I said any type of structured PvP is inferior to WvW for me.

Furthermore, it often leads to a lot of pie-throwing. “I killed you 1v1 noob”, “Here’s a screenshot of you scrubs. You look a little pale lying on the ground there, what’s up?” We went over that with Maguuma, I’d prefer to not do it with Darkhaven. This is also why I won’t give my name or guild away, but as I said, you can find it easily if you bother to look.

Giving your tag away often turns into a very hostile situation where every kill turns into a potential troll on the forums. I fully realize my group and I die from time to time, but I would hate for them to be the target of the trolling simply because of something I said on the forums. Sometimes maybe they just want to try out a few new builds, run around casually and stuff. For them to be instantly targeted by everyone is not something I wish on them. Everything I say or claim here are my words entirely.

Lastly, when I said I would probably stomp everyone, it was mostly a joke. Don’t put too much thought into it.

This first part of the post is exactly what I mean, though. You didn’t respond to what I said or asked and instead responded in part to what you assume other people are saying or asking or said it simply just to say it.

What exactly do you want? A good fight? It shouldn’t be too hard if you go to any of the Borderlands. EB is too populated by every server to get a good one for much time at all before others swing by.

But you won’t tell us how this fight is supposed to be. Or what you mean by a good fight. Or even if you want this to happen. You just don’t like however it is DH does whatever it is you don’t like. That’s basically what I register here.

- Never said anything about anyone’s skill.
- Nor anything about 1v1s or GvGs.
- You and others, by lumping us into one overarching DH (instead of “some DHers,” for example), are, inadvertently or not, taking swipes at the integrity of every WvWer on DH when you highlight the kittenclownery of the few that /dance over corpses. (I’ve been /sit on, /dance, /etc. on by both servers since Friday—this stuff happens all the time. We just have, as I pointed out, more casuals and pugs playing because we’re winning. End of story.) So for those upset about it—get over it. Kitten happens to every server, from every server, and you’re not going to stop it posting. I only ever /salute people who put up good fights, or, in rare occasions, /laugh or /no when someone tries to cheapshot gank me and I keep going on my way, or /yes after I have killed said person.
- You don’t seem to know what you want. Darkhaven has maybe two zergs on a map at a time. Most often one (if any).
- Never asked for your tag, just clarification on how you expect us to choose to fight you behind the curtain of your anonymity.
- I don’t know what timezone you’re in, but your availability to post suggests that it’s not too different from ours.

WvW IS gauged by a point tally. Therefore most players who care about WvWing are going to be trying to earn points. Therefore sometimes they just keep running by instead of trying to swipe at anonymous invader & pals who are too busy looking for fights on the forums.

Come find people on DH to fight instead of waiting for us to fight you. Trust me, you will.
I’ll be in either DR or IoJ tonight, most likely in the southern half in and out of the center island. When my guildies and I aren’t busy doing things that help develop our server, we’re usually passing through there hoping for good fights.

I do stomp most people. I expect to do it even after the stealth nerf this coming update. I’m willing to back this up, and I don’t /laugh or kitten troll anyone who’s willing to put up a fight. Anyone that does, good or bad, is right by me.

Gab Superstar.4059:

I’m not asking DH to change how they play the game. I’m just describing your style of playing the game and why I disapprove of it, from my point of view. You may disapprove of my way of playing the game too.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Unless you feel that 12-14 PD is representative for all of DH I’m not sure where this “you keep saying that we do” is coming from?

So many different responses to you, Gab, because we can’t really get a straight answer. There are people willing to fight you but you won’t tell us where. People are trying to understand what exactly you mean with this pseudo-anti-DH posting but your posts feel… vague. It seems as if you expect something from us but at the same time you don’t. It’s just really difficult to understand what you’re getting at. Do you like… want half our server to quit WvWing so you can have more fun? Using the word “disapprove” makes this a lot more personal than I’m sure you mean, as does the lumping of our many individuals into something as unclassifiable (aside from our name) as DH. As in not DHers, but DH.

Your second statement above to Togo is basically Strawmanning us away from responding to your claim(s?) that DH is PvDooring and that you disapprove (1st quote) of our zerging. If you’re looking for a good fight, trust me, PD’ll give you one. As will my guild if and when we’re on. You’d be surprised at just how wrong anyone is with the “DH is a bunch of zergers and that’s it” mentality. People come and go and do whatever seems fun. You’ll find borderlands without filled zergs (DR’s last night had—I counted, because people seemed upset last night with our “overwhelming” numbers—18 DHers getting map completion in places… repeat: 18) and with a bunch of roaming small parties. If you can’t find them, you’re not looking hard enough. We’re literally everywhere… though a lot less common in EB.

Edit: Basically everything you’re saying right now is redirecting us away from trying to resolve your issue. You want to fight but have more fun posting how we’re not doing it your way on the forums.

As for style? We’re still recovering from the massive hit (this is not a comparison to you guys, as we all understand you guys had it worse) and have yet to develop one. Want a picture? Casual GW2 player logs on and hits “B.” DH is winning in points. Casual GW2 player who normally PvEs finds that WvW—since we’re winning—might be fun. Player goes into whatever map and finds something fun to do. End of story. People from DR and IoJ will learn a lot about DH by understanding that.

Crimson Magdelana.9024:

And no one is “complaining” about the number of people DH has. Some of you say you don’t have that many, but you do have the 24/7 coverage….that alone is our (IoJ) only issue. Trust me, we love the mindless Duuuuuh zergs throwing badges at us for free all night.

As for 24/7 coverage? We hardly have it. Weekend is gone, which means work’ll keep most people out who were playing for long hours this weekend. In an alternate vein, I’d venture that 1/3 to nearly 1/2 the people you guys see wouldn’t be logging into WvW if we were losing.

This goes for both servers coming honestly from a Darkhavener: Put up some strong resistance and you’ll see our overly inflated superior numbers dwindle. No… drop. Because we really are that unpredictable. (Sometimes that’s a good thing :P )

Tuluum.9638:

While I have my doubts about DR being as outnumbered as is claimed, I dont have any doubt that GoM and HoD were outnumbered by us. But.. iirc, the points discrepancy was roughly the same (about double, I think).

I want to point out that the first week against HoD and GoM (IIRC) we didn’t come in first. Plain and simple, numbers swell as you win. We have tried advertising in LA getting keeps and stuff for PvEers map completion if they wanted it. Stuff like that might help.

Looking forward to the 1v1s, the zergs, the small scale battles, the ganks, the ninjas, the fails, the everything else the rest of this week. Hope everyone else is too.

Marcol.2349:

Does DH have any good pvpers?
Was on all day, didn’t see one of your elusive and amazing GRIM players.
All I saw was trash 10-15 burn and war tags cappin’ sentry flags like bosses and getting slaughtered by everyone remotely close to their size in numbers.

On a side note:
less porting through walls, kthnx.

Love when people troll needlessly.

I’ll be around for a few hours tonight with a few guildies. Come find us.
If they’re not around, come find me. I’d be glad to help you with this little issue.

Until then, lose the petty taunts. It’s still only the weekend and you’re making yourself out to be a sore loser.

Okay. Then give us more than 2 viable builds in return. Because we don’t have them.

Taking away culling is great. It’ll get rid of all those players that use it as an excuse. But nerfing stealth like this without even seeing how culling affects everything is premature. Stealth and mobility are our only means of defense—which is really to say we have no defense but just avoid everything. Now, we’ll just be shadowstepping around watching fights because we’ll be so busy waiting for that Revealed debuff even after having not attacked.

This is silently really affecting Condi builds too, because we’re going to get that many fewer opportunities to use Sneak Attack. Why bother fkittenucking waiting for the right opportunity to strike? We can’t now. Now we’re forced to use it even when we don’t want to… or suffer the revealed debuff anyways.

Sure, we’ll adapt. But we need something in return. More gap creators or closrs so they can’t just dodge away and let us get revealed to swat us. Shorter invis CDs.

This is like looking at a Guard and saying, “No. Once you’ve had your boons stripped you can’t stack them again for a few seconds.”

Softspoken.2410:

“Sir, the buyers are getting restless about their orders. What should I tell them?”
“Tell them the prototypes have entered Alpha Testing. No! Wait! Tell them we’ll send out the product ‘when it’s ready!’”

Also, Researcher Irkz in south eastern Plains of Ashford says, “It’s a process. True success is one percent iteration, ninety-nine percent iteration.”
…When we were all clamoring for more info before they even announced betas, ANet kept talking about the many iterations they were going thru.

Chainspell.5697:

However, I am not going to sit here and let Thief players try to pust the OP blame to the Elemetalist especially against 1 skill and a purely situational one at that. A thief can feel immortal for 99% of the map, while elementalist’s escape is only viable near towers. Thief players have no right to come in and say any escape is OP, especially since they are already playing a class that if played right will never die even to a 10-15 man zerg.

Thieves have every right to question a Downed Skill. Just because we’re Thieves we can’t discuss this game…?

SlimGenre.6417:

Every class has something OP about them compared to another class. Also, just remember that for every opponent in WvW that is able to do something that you aren’t, then there is a teammate of yours doing the same thing to them. It works both ways, it may be imba between you and them, but it’s not imba if both teams are able to do it. That’s why I don’t understand posts that complain about what one class can do compared to the others, especially when it comes to WvW, because both teams are taking advantage of it.

I don’t know if you’re referring to my original post, but I wasn’t complaining. It’s not about who’s doing it, it’s that it can be done in the first place. IMO if an Elementalist feels like martyring and jumping off a wall to AoE bomb everyone, or run up behind a zerg at a keep and AoE the same—both without worrying about inflicting massive AoE damage and having to survive it—that Elementalist should in fact be a martyr. None of that “not having to worry about going downed because he can just Vapor Form back into the keep, revive, and repeat a moment later” business. That Elementalist shouldn’t be allowed to reenter the keep in the downed state. Simple as that.

So yeah. In general it’s not a complaint. It’s also not a thing that should be turned on me “because I’m a Thief” lol. This has nothing to do with Thieves. This is about a downed skill unlike anything else in the game.

Amazing thread and post.

I love people expecting me to backstab or something… then using a stolen Necro’s fear to send them off cliffs.

Cliffs are everything awesome about WvW.

Fishbait.6723:

That has to be a tooltip error".

Devs gave the Engi all the other professions’ discarded downed skills. It has to be.

Don’t worry. You can blow them up! (…5 seconds after you were stomped when the skill’s CD ends.)

Actium.8765:

BPs guilds are busy and there BL is unguarded?

literally lol’d to this post. That picture says it all.

lol I’m cool. I just had lunch. Sorry if it sounds like I’m raging. I’m not.

Just trying to forcefully nip those “omgstopQQing” posts before they turn into silly arguments. I’m genuinely interested in what I posted and would like people to read them and respond accordingly instead of coming at me personally.

Unfortunately that’s just what happens in forums…

Because I’m not complaining and not calling for a Vapor Form nerf. I’m asking why Eles should be able to enter keeps from the downed state. Other than that it’s really fine as it is.

covenn.7165:

This is not entirely true. You are forgetting the downstate ability of another class.

Kitten. Which one am I missing? Warriors can enter but generally die soon after. Plus they can be killed while in Vengeance.

Hopp,

DH – 24,248
BP – 22,471
AR – 21,039

Looks like an awesome week ahead.

It’s a long shot you’ll get this, but to the S/P Mesmer I dueled on the hill outside Klovan last night—that was a great fight. If you’re looking for another crack, find me shooting unicorns and toss an invite.

Diashame.6328:

Here is an argument your looking for.
We have ONE advantageous ability that helps us survive and only in limited situations.

How about Thief being able to stomp from invis. How many extra kills do you get from this? Something no other class can do, so since our ability that no other class can use need to be nerfed maybe his one needs nerfing too?

It’s a pathetic argument “No one else can do it so its got to go.”

All classes have abilities to do different things or why create different classes.

QQ less and learn to minimize DMG from other classes abilities.

I suggest you actually read my posts.

Because everything you just said is completely off topic, has been responded to, or wrong because you misread. Stuff like this is unproductive and has no use in a thread trying to generate serious conversation.

The Thief stealth stomp is a classic GW2 Strawman. Go look it up. Then be less offended and offensive and get back to topic.

But just for argument’s sake, look at the video TheGreatA.4192 posted. Mist Form stomp > Stealth stomp. As is Elixir S. If at the 2:50 mark a Thief were Invised trying to stomp, he’d be absolutely rolled.

I’m not even going to bother to read this:

Yes, Stealth is busted and shouldn’t have been included in PvP/WvW play.
But since they royally kittened that up, there’s no way of fixing it without serious game overhaul.

It would literally BREAK the Thief class. No, not make it so people wouldn’t play it because we wouldn’t be gimmicky backstabbers. Most good players have moved on from those builds. It would break it because Stealth is our only means of defense, some of our offense, and pretty much overall gameplay. You take Stealth from the game and Thieves are little more than giant paper targets.

Omne.4603:

Imo post something like this in the matchup thread just so more people can see. Seemed like GoM had a few last night.

GoM has some awesome ones. They gave us a kitten of a time for all those weeks we were against them.

Darkhaven by and large doesn’t, but there is one guild (not mine) that is gaining recognition for its small force ninja capabilities. This 25-for-the-orange-swords thing will only let them get more creative. I’ll let it come out in time

Fishbait.6723:

Definitely a case of “Search the forums/learn to play” I`m afraid.

Immobilize them, they won`t go anywhere.
If you`ve already used your Immobilize skill, then that isn`t the Elementalists fault, but don`t worry, too many QQers kittening about RTL got that whack-a-mole nerfed so no doubt Anet will do the same with Vapor Form.

P.S. This skill is only of use at a keep & is a complete waste of time anywhere else.
Ele` downed, casts Vapor Form, enemy mob/player just roleplay walks along side it & starts the downed action again. Dead Ele`.

What`s that you say? Ele` Vapor Form`d off of a cliff & into water whilst you stayed to fight the others.
Chase him, kill him, laugh at your free loot!

Offense meant but it isn`t that difficult.

Figured I’d have to respond to this in full.

Really not a l2p issue, because I don’t have and have never had any problem with Eles.

My only current immobilize is from Stealth, which means I get the revealed debuff after I use it. But that’s not what concerns me. I find it entirely acceptable that I have to use an immobilize to lock one down. Being able to handle any class or situation is something good players can spec for and do. I don’t ever get ganked by Thieves and I never have problems with bunker Eles (other than them taking longer to kill).

What concerns me is that the Ele can use Vapor Form to go through the glowing portal into a tower from the downed state.

They should get stopped at the gate. Entering in the downed state is an advantage no other class shares without penalty.

As for a waste of time, pretty much all downed state skills are in most situations. They just buy you a little time to rally off an NPC or die a few seconds later.

And as I’m assuming you’ve fought in water before, I’m sure you recognize that it’s a lot slower killing someone in water downed state than it is on land. Jumping in after the Ele would have meant having to burn the Ele down while in the water—completely exposed (as a Thief with very little HP that usually means death) and without stealth (again death). No I’m not GC, so don’t bother trying to disregard my argument and attack me there. If it were possible to finish someone under water as quickly as on land this wouldn’t have been mentioned. But since it isn’t, it becomes an example of how an Ele can use Vapor Form to gain an advantage from the downed state. That’s a bit too powerful. He should have been stopped at the cliff, if anything.

All I’m trying to say is that Eles shouldn’t be able to gain that advantage. Again, if someone presents a good enough argument why they should, I’m willing to listen. Otherwise I still hold that they shouldn’t be able to enter towers/keeps and should be more limited by terrain. Besides that there isn’t an issue with Vapor Form.

Gaudrath.6725:

The fact that eles have one of the best downed skills is because if you try to actually do some damage, you get downed a lot. They need it.

For example, as a Guardian I can rush through a zerg using teleportation and stun breakers + Aegis and rely on my much higher survivability to just plow through and reach the gate.

As an Ele, I get melted if I’m even remotely slow about it. One immobilize and that’s it. So I have Vapor form to compensate.

As a Guardian I can hop down in front of a gate, maybe drop the Wall, knock some heads around and dodge back in without immediately being blown up. As an elementalist, if I get pulled off a wall or decide to troll the attackers, Mist/Vapor form are pretty much my only options for staying alive.

So it balances out in the end. If your downed skills are weak, that’s because you don’t really need them that often.

This is the most reasonable of the answers, I’d say. And while I agree with you, I still wonder why it is so much more powerful than other downed state skills. As a Guard you still could get locked down and have no way of limping back into the keep while invulnerable.

Victory.2879:

I did find it amusing that a thief is complaining about this- the class that can stomp from stealth….

Couple things: a) I’m not complaining, I’m looking for a discussion. b) I’d rather be able to stomp while invulerable 100% of the time. I can still take damage, be interrupted, etc. while in stealth. c) Whether or not I can stomp from stealth is completely irrelevant to this topic.

Gothahm.6274:

Does DH have a beef with AR or something? I’m so confused.

Past a certain point, the zergball starts rolling and you can’t stop it

What you’re seeing is probably the zerg going to the next closest easiest point to cap on a map. DH doesn’t have anything against AR, it’s just us playing the path of least resistance.

We’re still a work in progress, really. It’ll come :P

But other than that, if you’re talking about the hits out of the gate in AR BL… we like to keep you guys on your toes.

Too many PvE Elementalists and too few WvW Elementalists.

Because it’s WvW related, here is good enough.

Looking for an honest discussion if people are willing to have one. I’m willing to listen to a good argument.

So. Sure, it’s more or less an appropriate downed skill. But much like Invisibility (old hat argument not needed in this thread), it brings with it a WvW imbalance. Specifically, the lack of a restriction/penalty (other than range) that comes alongside most other comparable downed skills.

Using this to enter a tower or keep, for example, is an incongruity that I’m guessing most of us have experienced. It doesn’t compare to other mobile downed state skills. A Thief can teleport but isn’t able to enter the tower. A Warrior can Vengeance through but will die shortly after. From my experience, most Elementalists are virtually impossible to lock down and keep out of a tower. Mist Form -> downed state -> Vapor Form usually has enough range to get inside. A suicidal Ele should be exactly that--suicidal.

Off the top of my head I can think of another time an Elementalist was able to Vapor Form off a cliff into water and leave me unable to stomp him/her. (Thereby eliminating the Ele from the fight… something you can’t do as quickly under water.) I had to continue dueling the Ele’s buddies until the Ele quickly rejoined. As a Thief that could only have gone to the edge of the cliff, I wonder why the Ele wasn’t limited in the same way. Not saying it wasn’t absolutely great playing on the Ele’s part. It was. But how someone is able to garner an advantage from the downed state is beyond me. Even a Mesmer that can go invis, summon a clone, and stack Confusion doesn’t get that sort of treatment. Just kill the second Mesmer to appear.

Invulnerability is a whole other beast. But it’s not what I’m most concerned about.

Maybe it’s just a petty gripe. I do think it’s something worth a bit of discussion though and would like to hear back from a few Elementalists and others willing to have one. Convince me that I’m wrong thinking it should be modified for WvW in some way. Not nerfed. Modified.

Inspiring SM blitz, BP. Been looking forward to a change of scenery and competition, and it looks like we found what we were looking for.

Let’s have a great week

Thank you, I actually didn’t put it together that they were all only Mesmer Phantasm weapons.
Went to the Mists to check it out and had to let the NPCs kill me to get a screenshot. Looks like the skin is the same as the Bandit Shiv, which I find a bummer. Guess maybe because it’s in the downed state? Would be nice if ANet gave us (and the Illusion, of course!) a dagger to work with since it does exist as a Phantasm’s weapon set.

I want to bump this, but sort of bring to attention the other weapons that don’t seem to have it.
Post patch, ANet had to do some “Mists” weapons fixing. Does this list by Mark Katzbach indicate that these are the only true Mists weapons? (Also therefore indicating that those missing ones are in fact missing and not undiscovered?)

greyblue.4962:

Also, was running into sentry guards fighting each other over their posts. How does that happen?

This is a bug. Somehow, sometimes not all guards switch to the new server after being capped, and what you end up having is a single renegade guard that spawns and attacks everyone around it.

Could make for some great “defend the keep/tower/etc.” karma farming

mginn.4502:

On the way down I planted the seeds of descent in Darkhaven…

Seriously though, thoroughly enjoyed this matchup the last several weeks. DH you’ll be missed.

Dissent! omg /stops reading
Nonetheless, this is an amazing post.

mginn.4502:

Or… Maybe they each had somewhere else to be? A tower siege that needed defending, a keep defense that needed immediate reinforcements… No time for the delay of a pointless battle in an empty field…

This, though, if I had to guess. People often forget that the aim in WvW isn’t always to kill people. I often run by individuals, groups of people, zergs, if it’s not the time for a battle. Sadly, WvW is often treated as something much more similar to sPvP.

But really though—great fun against both you servers. I know the same matches over and over again can get really frustrating for the 2 that don’t win, but you guys have been awesome. After the drubbing we were getting for months on end before settling in T7, you guys really indirectly helped foster a new sense of DH pride and WvW desire by being great opponents.

@HoD: Another SM golem rush? Ugh. Not sure how ready for the jump we are if we keep letting that happen to us. Guess it didn’t help that GoM was in the middle of an Overlook golem rush.

There’s been some serious T7 meta evolving this week. Golems are all the rage. Not sure if HoD will be ready for this.