Showing Posts For Gevinor.4503:
No more usain bolts running away like scared girls in wvw. I like it.
So thieves and mesmers can still reset fights and run away ad nauseam but warriors and eles can’t? Your logic is flawless.
Mobility is just as much of a class mechanic as blinking/stealth.
Necros Rangers Guardians Engineers cant either so i dont see your logic either. And if you only build your toon to escape theres something wrong with your mentality in pvp orientated zones.
If specced right, necros, rangers, and engies can be decent at breaking, it can be very difficult to break as a guardian though. For necro, spectral walk + flesh wurm can be effective. Ranger melee weapons used to offer solid mobility, and trapper runes allowed for a decent amount of stealth (both of these tactics were nerfed in the patch as well it seems). Engineer has ways to get stealth, and rocket boots used to be very effective (dont know about now though). I have used, or have seen these tactics used effectively in wvw.
In wvw roaming (a form of pvp) being able to close gaps and escape is key. If running melee, and you cant close the gap between you and your opponent, you will be kited to death. If an enemy zerg shows up, you need mobility (or stealth) to escape, or else you will likely face a long walk.
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Your playing a heavy armor melee focused class you shouldnt be fast.
The greatsword weapon skills should be used to kill a foe.
Take discipline line and the middle adept trait warriors sprint which is just your going faster.
use a warhorn and give yourself more swiftness.
Melee classes need speed, otherwise they just get kited to death. Warriors sprint is no where near adequate speed by itself, not for wvw anyway (everyone has +25% speed if not swiftness there).
I was thinking about this the other day. In all the ways that warrior was unique and useful, they were nerfed in some way or another. In exchange, warriors appear to have gained more damage, whether or not this increase in damage is beyond anything the other classes is getting remains to be seen.
Dungeons: banners were effectively nerfed (major trait lost).
PvP: Hambow was nerfed when they made you choose between burst mastery and merciless hammer.
Shoutbow isn’t as effective as it was before, partly due to the warhorn and shout heal nerfs.
WvW: Zerg warrior was nerfed due to shout heal and warhorn nerfs. Charge only affecting 5 targets instead of 10 really hurts its usefulness in zergs.
Roaming warrior was only good because of its ability to escape using greatsword mobility. Post patch gs mobility is pathetic.
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Did some testing/calculations.
Findings:
With +25% speed bonus and out of combat:
Post patch average speed increase from using GS mobility (vs walking): 7.14%
Pre patch: 15.6%
Using base speed out of combat (to vaguely mimic in combat speed with +25% speed):
Post patch: 18.75%
Pre patch: 28.15%
I did some testing on a few of my characters that utilize teleports, my medi guard and my Mesmer were able to put in better times than my warrior given similar testing conditions.
Calculations:
Note: Exact numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, my methods of timing were a little crude (looked at a digital clock).
Out of combat mobility (with +25% speed, GS is traited):
Walking from point A to point B took 30 sec. The same distance was covered using greatsword mobility in 28 sec (rush x2, whirlwind x3). Thus, GS mobility provided an average speed increase of 7.14% (((x/28)/(x/30)) – 1, “x” being the distance from A to B ). Two seconds of +25% out of combat speed is 735 units (according to wiki), thus if the gs warrior were to continue the additional 2 seconds he would go an additional 787.5 units (735*1.0714). So, GS mobility gains a net total of 787.5 units over a target that is simply walking with a +25% speed boost every 30 sec.
Before the patch, when speed boosts affected movement abilities, rush would go an additional 300 units (1200*.25), and whirlwind attack would go an additional 112.5 units (450*.25) (assuming a 25% speed boost). So, within 30 seconds, a pre patch warrior should have went an additional 937.5 units (300*2 + 112.5*3) beyond what a post patch warrior can do. Thus, every 30 sec a warrior’s GS mobility would contribute an additional 1725 units, a value 2.19 times greater than what the current GS contributes. Before the patch GS mobility would have equated to a 15.6% mobility increase (((x + 787.5)/30)/(x/30) = (1(1/14)), x = 11,025, ((11025 + 1725)/30)/(11025/30) -1 = s (speed multiplier), s = .156). Thus, pre patch GS would have gone the same distance in 26 sec ((x/t)/(x/30) = (170/147), solve for t).
In combat mobility (actually an approximation using base out of combat speed):
Walking from point A to B took 38 sec without GS mobility, and 32 sec with GS mobility (2 rush, 4 whirlwind). This indicates that in this scenario, GS offers 18.75% greater speed than walking. 6 sec of base walking speed is the equivalent of 1764 units, thus if the GS war were to continue for 6 more seconds he would go an additional 2095 units (1764*1.1875) beyond the distance that a walking character would do. Before the patch, GS mobility would have offered an additional 1050 units (300*2 + 112.5*4) within the same period of time. Thus, every 38 sec a warrior’s GS mobility would contribute an additional 3145 units, a value 1.5 times greater than what the current GS contributes. Thus, the pre patch GS would offer a 28.15% speed increase and have gone the same distance in 29.5 sec ((x/t)/(x/38) = (8591/6704)), solve for t).
I also ran my Mesmer and medi guard through the same course.
Mesmer: had no speed buffs, used traited blink only.
Time: 31 sec (probably closer to 31.5)
Note that my GS war could only get achieve 32 sec in a similar scenario.
Medi Guard: +25% speed, used only Judges intervention and leap of faith.
Time: 26 sec
It is important to note that Judges intervention has a bit of a long cd, so a longer test would have had to be complete to effectively gauge the guardian’s average speed.
My warrior could only achieve 28 sec in a similar scenario.
Feel free to point out any math errors or faulty assumptions related to game mechanics.
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By far my favorite choice would be to rework Defense:
1. DELETE Thick Skin
2. Make Armored Attack a Minor to take the spot
3. Replace Armored Attack with Merciless Hammer(4. Come up with a new and useful Tactics GM. Something banner or support based.)
Sounds like a good idea to me. Keep in mind that they would certainly nerf armored attack down to 5-7% (perfectly fine with me).
I do wvw 90% of the time and warrior for me is not worth it. Damage is awesome as zerk (my preferred spec since original beta) and heal sig is amazing now. But (and I’ve said this in other threads) greatsword mobility is trashed and I feel like a thief without stealth. Since the whole game is a mess, I’m taking a break and playing mesmer until hopefully greatsword move speed is fixed.
Three years on warrior with many ups and downs and all it took to make me switch was normalizing speed on movement skills. Please revert, anet.
Agree 100%, pretty much sums up how I feel about the patch. The lack of mobility feels like a deal breaker for wvw.
Warrior (roaming) – Much higher damage, but mobility is worse. I’d say that pretty much any build that can teleport is now as fast or faster than a gereatsword war now (mesmer blink alone seems to offer similar mobility now).
I would say that the movement skill change is the greatest fundamental problem (at least for wvw roaming). The order of which builds are faster than which has effectively changed. Pretty much all classes that use teleports are now effectively faster than those who rely on physical movement skills. For example, a Mesmer with blink alone is as fast as a greatsword warrior now, before the patch the GS warrior with any kind of speed buff could easily outrun a Mesmer. Unless they want warriors to be one of the slower classes, they will need to buff movement skills in some manner.
For compensation they gave all movement skills condi immunity, but personally, I never found being crippled that big of a problem. Historically, I doubt if even 1 out of 10 of my rushes have been ruined by a cripple. Even when I was crippled, my speed bonus negated part of it anyway. In my opinion, the change was effectively nothing more than a nerf to the mobility of classes that used physical movement skills.
It is important to note that this is a problem for other classes as well (notably ranger).
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After the movement skill changes, movement abilities are now nothing more than sub par teleports. They are highly telegraphed, cannot be used to reach ledges, cannot help you escape an immob, cannot help you move while stunned, and are slow (compared to the instant nature of teleports).
I did some tests comparing GS war mobility and Mesmer mobility using only blink. They’re about the same now in terms of raw speed.
This situation is of course not limited to mesmers and warriors. The relative speed between classes that rely on mundane means of mobility and those who have teleports has changed dramatically in the favor of those who can teleport.
Personally, I played some wvw today (roaming), and my gs mobility felt inadequate. The benefits from having movement impending condition immunity while performing a mobility skill feels like very weak compensation. Personally, I run anti condi food/ runes/ dogged march, so they didn’t bug me much anyway. Additionally, Before the patch speed boosts negated part of the speed penalty from condis, limiting their effectiveness.
Aomine,
I wouldn’t say that Juba’s trait distribution is op.
My current defense trait distribution:
Thick Skin + Dogged March + Adrenal Health + Cleansing Ire + Armored Attack + Merciless Hammer
My preferred distribution using Anet’s planned defense line:
Thick Skin + Dogged March + Adrenal Health + Cleansing Ire + Spiked Armor + Defy Pain
My preferred distribution using Juba’s version:
Cull the Weak + Dogged March + Adrenal Health + Armored Attack + Cleansing Ire + Last Stand
Net differences:
Current:
Thick Skin + Armored Attack + Merciless Hammer
Anet’s:
Thick Skin + Spiked Armor + Defy Pain
Juba’s:
Cull of the Weak + Armored Attack + Last Stand
I would take my current distribution any day of the week. For my purposes, the trait line is nerfed with Anet’s and Juba’s Distribution. His distribution is probably a buff for mace or shield users though. I wouldn’t say that its necessarily op for mace/shield considering the general power creep coming with the trait changes.
I used to run into a ranger in wvw who would exploit underwater lick wounds at south and south east camps (they would only fight near water and jump in right before they got downed). Always had to call in a guildie to help dps them down. Cant say that I’ve ever seen a decent ranger do it though.
Having cc put lick wounds on cooldown for the underwater version would solve the problem. They could also add underwater stomping of some kind, but I don’t see it happening. I cant remember the last time Anet tried to balance underwater combat, so I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for a fix.
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Though Warrior’s Sprint is a good trait, I don’t think that it should necesarily be made baseline. In my opinion, a slow warrior is a dead warrior, but there is more than one way a warrior can attain speed.
Examples (post patch):
-Rending Strikes (33% chance on crit for 3 sec of swiftness) + Signet of Rage
-Warhorn (near permanent upkeep when traited, alternatively can be combined with Signet of Rage)
-Speed or Traveler Runes (May not feel like as much of a stat disadvantage after they shift the stats from traits to armor)
- Signet of Rage + Pack Runes (Taking Signet Mastery with Signet of Rage can expand swiftness upkeep as well. Post patch Signet Mastery is located in Arms).
Personally, I find taking Warrior’s Sprint preferable, but there are certainly workable alternatives. Hopefully, the new specialization will add some more.
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Overall, I would say that I prefer your proposed changes over the current planed defense line. Cull the Weak is not a very interesting trait, but it is certainly preferable to the current Thick Skin. Your trait distribution is more desirable, and Cleansing Ire as a minor is a great idea.
Personally, I don’t care for how they did the new “Last Stand.” It is one of those traits that is a lump composed of weaker traits. I think such traits should be reworked to appear more streamlined. In this case, I would replace the 6 sec of vigor and +25% stance duration with a -20% cd reduction. The vigor can be moved to Defy Pain to split up the trait a bit.
Side note: The other lumpy warrior trait, Vigorous Shouts, can be changed similarly by transferring the +adrenaline portion of the trait to “Shrug it Off.”
Sebrent,
I am afraid that you have misunderstood what I meant, I will try to elaborate.
The fact that warriors feel that they need fast hands is not justification to make it baseline. My point was, since they think they need it, they will seek it out wherever it is, and thus will have it regardless of if it is baseline or not.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. One way to discuss whether or not that fast hands should be baseline is to argue about if it is absolutely needed, another way is to discuss whether or not the net effects of the change are desirable for the game. I was trying to discuss the topic for the latter point of view.
My statement “For those who do not choose to take Discipline, power creep will involve new synergies between trait line combinations that would not have previously been chosen,” is only a hypothesis. If fast hands is made baseline, a large amount of builds may become viable that were not before. If the new warrior trait layouts were designed in such a manner that assumed that most, if not all, viable pvp/wvw builds will have to take discipline, then there could be some kind of overpowered combination if the need for discipline is removed. Personally, nothing specific comes to mind.
Also, I never said that the synergies would be weaker than fast hands. I was referring to whatever trait they dream up to replace fast hands. I can’t imagine it would be anywhere near as powerful.
I will add some examples to my previous post to try and make its main message clearer.
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I don’t know if establishing the absolute need for fast hands is important. It is however important to note that most people who play warrior believe that they do need it. Thus, regardless of whether or not the trait is made baseline, warriors will have 5 sec weapon swap (or at least 95% of them in pvp/wvw). In effect, the power creep related to making fast hands baseline is not fast hands itself, but rather what fast hands is replaced with (for those who still take discipline). For those who do not choose to take Discipline, the power creep will involve new synergies between trait line combinations that would not have previously been chosen. Thus, the power creep would effectively be the effects associated with enhanced build diversity, or a trait that will undoubtedly be weaker than fast hands.
Edit: Added Examples:
Example 1: Fast Hands is made baseline, user keeps discipline.
Build before trait is baseline: Strength + Defense + Disciple (aribitrary)
After trait is baseline: Strength + Defense + Disciple + trait that replaces Fast Hands
Net effect: Power creep in the form of 1 extra trait
Example 2: fast Hands is made baseline, user swaps Discipline.
Build before trait is baseline: Strength + Defense + Disciple
After trait is baseline: Strength + Defense + Tactics + fast hands
Net effect: any special synergistic benefits the build has from switching to tactics (if any, but why switch to tactics if they weren’t in excess of synergies gained from taking discipline). Additionally, the build has one additional trait (cannot be specified, is not fast hands since both builds have it).
When it comes down to it, does the increased build diversity warrant the associated power creep? Normally, I would be uncertain. However, the upcoming patch seems to be characterized by power creep (free traits, 4 more total traits from lines). Looking at what some of the other classes seem to be getting, the power creep from making fast hands baseline doesn’t seem too unreasonable as far as I can tell.
It is important to note that the elite specialization may add something that could act as a substitute for fast hands (i.e. the new f2 swaps weapons regardless of cd (1 bar cost), or the new utilities are like kits (great axe, land spear, crossbow, etc.). If something along those lines occurs, then this discussion may become irrelevant. Will have to wait to find out.
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It also helps to try and keep track of how many dodges your enemy has used. If they have dodged twice, with little time inbetween, then they are likely prone to obvious attacks. Additionally, you can use stow cancel to bait dodges (start an obvious windup such as pidown or backbreaker, and cancel with a keybound stow weapon key if they dodge (the skill only gets a 3 sec cooldown).
You can also take leg specialist (Tactics I, immob on cripple) to land telegraphed attacks. For isntance, Hammershock —> Earthshaker (make sure you have the enemy you want to hit targeted, or else the immob may proc on a pet or something), or Savage Leap --> Final Thrust.
Also, try not to be predictable (a very easy thing for a warrior to be). Mix things up mid fight to keep them on their toes. For instance, use Earthshaker while moving away from your oponent (helps to set up a “look behind” keybind). I think I have yet to miss with a backwards Earthshaker.
But the key is setups, and sometimes setups for your setups.
Allot of hambow players (like me) needs leg specialist. Tactics is vey good for hambow and not just for the legspecialist (burning arrows, powerfull synergy) so Im glad that all these traits are in tactics.
You cant have it all I guess.
Powerful synergy only works for leap finishers, earthshaker (which looks like a leap to me) is a blast finisher. Powerful synergy, is as far as I can tell, only useful for Sword + LB builds. So if you want leg specialist with hambow, your probably going to have to go into shouts or take phalanx strength (probably not that great even with hoelbrak runes, especialy after the boon duration loss).
In my opinion, hambow would be better off if leg specialist were moved to any of the places I sugested in my earlier post. If moved to Strength, the new zerk power, or interrupt traits could be taken. For Arms the build would get unsuspecting foe and alot of +adrenaline traits to make up for the loss of burst mastery. If moved to Defense, all of the key Hambow traits would now be in two lines allowing for choice betwean any of the remaining lines (or the new elite spec). Lastly if moved to discipline, hambow would effectively gain a free trait.
Whatever happens, happens, but I think it would be a shame for the only trait that helps to shore up one of warriors major weaknesses (slow obvious animations (aka easily dodged)) were to be left where it will largely go unused.
TLDR;
If it stays were it is, it will probably only be taken by hambows, and will be a trait that forces the build into more of a support role (unless the trait is given up). If leg specialist is moved, hambow potentially has alot to gain, along with any other warrior build who wishes to take it.
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TLDR at bottom
In my opinion, leg specialist was never a good fit for the tactics line. Tactics is largely a group support line, and leg specialist is generally a trait taken to land telegraphed skills for the user. Personally, I do not believe that I have ever seen a build with leg specialist that went further than 2 points into tactics. Now that a full trait line must be taken, I believe that any build that historically took the trait will no longer continue to do so due to the heightened opportunity cost.
As far as I can tell, the only builds that would possibly take leg specialist when the patch hits would be some kind of a hambow using shouts, or a sword + longbow build that doesn’t use warhorn. However, I don’t think that the tactics line competes with Arms, Defense, and Discipline for a sword + LB spec. Put simply, leg specialist where it is now probably won’t be utilized (this also means that the potent leg specialist + opportunist combo will likely go unused).
The question is where to move it to so that it will have the possibility of being taken.
A few possibilities:
Strength:
As the OP stated, it could compete well in the adept tier. Alternatively, it could be a replacement for the very underpowered “building momentum.” Leg specialist fits the whole “aggressive dodging” theme of the minors in that line. If the name doesn’t seem fitting, perhaps it could be renamed to something such as “No Escape.”
Arms:
Leg specialist would have great synergy in this line, but I am uncertain where it specifically should go. It may be too powerful if it were combined with opportunist.
Defense:
Currently, it is very common to take a master tier trait over a GM in this line, post patch the GM options are no better. I would personally take leg specialist over any of the offered GM traits in this line if given the choice, don’t know if others feel similarly. Specifically, I would switch leg specialist with Sundering Mace. The tactics adept slot is likely the only spot that the mace trait would find any use (get more vulnerability and defiance ripping in dungeon builds).
Defense has the added bonus of allowing both condi and power builds a more equal opportunity to grab leg specialist (compared to Strength or Arms).
Discipline:
I don’t think that leg specialist would compete well in this line, too many powerful traits to compete with. Warrior’s Sprint would completely outshine it in adept tier (although the other options are very lackluster). One possibility would be to add it to Merciless Hammer. Merciless Hammer is the only weapon trait that will not be buffed by the patch, and leg specialist seems to be most often used with hammer. However, I don’t think its the ideal solution due to the fact that it would effectively shut out the possibility of leg specialist being used by anything but hammer. The upside is that it would still be better than leaving it in Tactics.
TLDR; After the patch, leg specialist will likely be underused (if not unused). It should be moved elsewhere so that warriors can take advantage of what is in my opinion one of the better designed warrior traits.
Possible locations:
Strength: adept, or master minor
Arms: somewhere (good synergy)
Defense: grandmaster (switch with sundering mace)
Discipline: merge with Merciless Hammer (not the ideal choice, but better than leaving it in tactics)