Guild Wars 2

Gee and watching 60 people spend 30 minutes killing giant dragons wasn’t “raid-ish” enough we want what 3 hours long raid instances for phat lootz? Please stop suggesting that GW2 become “mists of near extinct animals that their #1 customer drove to near extinction”.

This whole thread boils down to: “Make GW2 more like WoW please”.

If you want raids why not play WoW or Tera? Why come to another MMO that clearly wanted to be different, then demand they become the same?

Never noticed till reading this post. Was too busy 2 shotting people in RvR with a long bow farming the cliffs and dumb zerglings.

… Falls off cliff, immediately starts raining arrrows on top of himself killing all the sheeple that jumped down after him, then finishes off the the occasional Guardian with a knock back arrow sending him further off the cliff….

I have noticed that the 60% runes aren’t really 60%. After 1000 shots they are working out to be only about 10% rather then 60%.

I spent an hour one day reporting them along with my guildies on DR. Over 200 in all. We did that for 4 days in a row. I am seriously questioning if Anet is taking botting seriously at all since I still can’t walk more then 10 seconds in Cursed Lands without finding a batch of botters.

Here we go again. Two things killed DAOCs growth; ToA and Top Heavy RvR. WoW didn’t kill DAOC, ToA killed it, top heavy RvR prevented it from recovering.

A ‘rich gets richer’ approach to RvR\PvP rewards never helped an MMO to date. Shutting out new players is never a good idea and keeping the disparity between new and established players to a minimum is important. RAs weren’t a good idea, neither were MLs and certainly artifacts were a bad idea also.

DR has a bot problem. I think many of the macros came here to farm due to the low pop. Our PvE zones are plagued by them. In one weekend I ended up reporting 400 different botters, and that was just in Cursed Lands and in the water in each of the borderland zones.

Simplest solution to help with the problem (but not eliminate it) is to score player kills using a coefficient to modify the base awarded points based on the map population difference at the time of the kill. This should help close the disparity of off-peak scoring impact by bolstering peak-time contributions.

If off peak flipping an issue? Not really as far as I can tell, it’s more likely then not that high score servers have a wider “peak time” window (thus shorter off-peak window) is impacting scoring then opposing off-peak activity. It sounds like arguing semantics but the math folks understand. The ramp up and ramp down I would assume is a significant indicator also but it is way too late in the evening to try and test that.

One key metric would be the queue size after the reset which is roughly the first 5 datapoints (you can ignore all the rest actually).

The queue counts here have substantially more impact on scores it appears then any of the other datapoints. In short: There is a much stronger correlation between the first 5 queue counts to score then the first 5 queue counts of any other prime time.

In short: Higher scoring servers bring their A game when the matchups first begin.

This last part tells a very important factor: There may be a fundamental problem with turning around a WvW match when there is early domination.

Could we get, for that same time period, a chart of their score at that sampling time?

Please post a CSV of the data please.

That aside there are a few key items the charts point out:

First off the zone has to be full in order to queue OR if the populations are balanced to the smallest population. — Please clarify how populations are controlled in WvW.

Given this we can answer the following questions:

• On a given server do people tend to queue for a specific zone first (EB for example) and then overflow to other zones.
• We can see the overall growth of the queues looking at WvW as a whole by adding them together.
• We can see how long a specific “prime time” and “off time” cycle is on a server.
• We can see the ramp up and ramp down rate

R\S-PLUS time:

• Plugging in final scores in regression analysis we can see that servers that queue for EB correlates to higher ranking more then queueing for a borderland.
• The wider the peaktime window correlates to higher scores.
  *The narrower the offpeak window correlates to higher scores. (Which reinforces the prior)
• Queue length itself doesn’t appear to strongly correlate to higher scores
• Average queue length in EB as a stronger correlation to higher scores then average borderland queue lengths.

I had to guesstimate as best I could the actual data points on the graph and took two sets of random samples of graphs 6 each. Please post raw data for us in a CSV please!

Without the raw data there is some uncertainty in the accuracy since I didn’t have time to run all the graphs. However I can draw a conclusion with a certain confidence: The activity in EB, based on the graphs, is the ‘best’ indicator of serious WvW activity. This could be the result of high scoring servers locking up borderlands and then heading to EB. It could be the reverse.

Can’t because the scale isn’t the same. 10259 units of distance in A isn’t the same as 10259 units of distance in B since char models etc are different scales. I could figure out the difference I suppose if I had a /LOC command in GW2 and compare 10 steps to 10 steps but I’m hoping a few guildies still have accounts to make the time trials.

color coding the choices would work also, red for >90% full, down to blue for kitten near empty.

How about the ability to toggle it off so I don’t have people following me all the kitten time? Nothing like a cross-realm spy knowing EXACTLY where the commanders are on the battlefield…

Osiath.4823:

blink.4239:

Then the game would just be really boring. The better team wouldn’t bother going beyond the hills or bay if garrison were practically unholdable. Why not just make garrison an uncapturable point if they’re going to make it nearly impossible to hold?

The more and more you post, the more it seems you’re more so just too lazy to organize or care. So instead you want it pretty much handed to you without any work having to be done.

Agreed. Let the home team waste what little precious resources they have on Trebs on a cliff. In the mean time the winners will just rake in the points.

Courtesy of some DAOC emulator folks I have the distances but lol no way of knowing how fast people move in relation to that distance. Anyone know what the max DAOC velocity is?

Still hoping to get a youtube video showing the times.

zerospin.8604:

Umm if the defenders have to use unreachable trebs in their home base, it seems they already are loosing hard, and got pushed back to the wall, so they should be able to do that.

Agreed. It should be incredibly difficult to hold those last few points in someone’s home terrain. The home team should have an advantage in their home territory.

First: Zergs are lazy. Few people in a zerg ever “look behind them”. Sun Tzu actually address this. The short version is:

“When facing superior numbers, divide and conquer”

Zergs are easy to pick apart. 2 FGs flanking a zerg will tend to pull 2/3rd one direction and 1/3rd another direction. By staying at the peripheral of the zerg you can peel a zerg like an onion very quickly.

A good solid guild run zerg will be harder to peel but being in a zerg how often to you hear people spam: “DON’T CHASE”. There is a reason for that, chasing is peeling the onion.

I’d tweak it further based on number of objectives held, but I’m not a fan of linear rewards. It needs to be tweaked but even a linear progression in reward would be nice.

=B3-((D3-C3)/10)

Where B3 is the base score per kill (I used 10) C3 is the victim’s current population and D3 is the attacker’s population.

Base Point Victim Attacker Reward
10 2 100 0.2
10 4 98 0.6
10 6 96 1
10 8 94 1.4
10 10 92 1.8
10 12 90 2.2
10 14 88 2.6
10 16 86 3
10 18 84 3.4
10 20 82 3.8
10 22 80 4.2
10 24 78 4.6
10 26 76 5
10 28 74 5.4
10 30 72 5.8
10 32 70 6.2
10 34 68 6.6
10 36 66 7
10 38 64 7.4
10 40 62 7.8
10 42 60 8.2
10 44 58 8.6
10 46 56 9
10 48 54 9.4
10 50 52 9.8
10 52 50 10.2
10 54 48 10.6
10 56 46 11
10 58 44 11.4
10 60 42 11.8
10 62 40 12.2
10 64 38 12.6
10 66 36 13
10 68 34 13.4
10 70 32 13.8
10 72 30 14.2
10 74 28 14.6
10 76 26 15
10 78 24 15.4
10 80 22 15.8
10 82 20 16.2
10 84 18 16.6
10 86 16 17
10 88 14 17.4
10 90 12 17.8
10 92 10 18.2
10 94 8 18.6
10 96 6 19
10 98 4 19.4
10 100 2 19.8

Kyus.3812:

The nightcapping debate needs to change names to what the actual problem is.

Its not about night capping. night capping should be there as a viable tactic. it should also encourage people to play who have an alternative work/sleep pattern or live in another time zone.

What the actual problem is, is that the scoring system reflects too heavily on who has the majority of players during low population hours. This trivialises primetime combat. A medium populaton server can win at prime time against a full/high pop server. Any scoring during that time is irrelevant in comparison to the score that the server is able to maximise during the lower population hours.

Simple, contribute 1 point for every enemy player killed. Prime time now competes with offhour players.

There has been some discussion about the size of the WvW zones. Myself being a numbers person would like to determine what the zone size should be in context to DAOC.

This has arisen as a result of complaints that wiping zergs and the ability to redeploy is off. I suggest doing a simple comparison between DAOC and GW2 in terms of objective distances in relation to DAOC’s Rez sickness debuff. The longer the rez sickness, the shorter the distances we can tolerate since people risk insta-dying if they return too fast.

Plan of Attack
In DAOC we have someone frap the following:

• At max run speed the distance from the border keep to the nearest Keep.
• At max run speed the distance between that first border keep to the next closest keep.

This will give us the TimeFromBorderKeep and TimeBetweenKeeps

Then at max run speed we determine the time from border keep to the nearest enemy keep (Suggest Hib to Mid run via boat for example). This should give us TimeFromBorderToEnemyKeep

We can then determine the ratios for distance versus Rez timer. Since GW2 doesn’t effectively have a rez timer we’ll use 10 seconds (loading screen, chat, etc time.) as GW2 Rez sickness.

We should all be able to agree that the longer the rez timer the short the distance needed since running back into battle with Rez sickness is going to end badly.

We should be able then to compare DAOC distances to GW2 distances and see how far ‘off’ the distances are.

Hypothesis: GW2 zones are at least 1/2 the size they should be if using DAOC as a reference.

Requirement:
We need someone who still has a DAOC account or friend still playing who can FRAPS the above described run and verify the current rez sickness timer. Posted to youtube

Results:
We can give ArenaNet the metrics so they can determine:

A) If the map size requires a Rez Sickness timer to compensate for distances. We can then determine the timer from the distance\rez ratios.
B) If the map itself needs changes.

This is an excellent opportunity since both A and B as solutions can be implemented. A rez sickness debuff in the short term while map changes are made.

Who can makes those runs today or this weekend and get the results posted (M:S format?)

tarnin.1690:

Idgarad.6105:

Scotsin.1546:

My main problem with WvW in guild wars 2, compared to Daoc has to be the zones. Not enough room to roam and mobs are spread out everywhere instead of small camps of them with empty spaces between.

Another problem would be having four different zones, and not one large zone like new frontiers had. Or if they have to stay separate, then the fast speed a player can respawn and return to a battle. Killing off a large number of players isn’t much of a victory when they can be back in 2 to 3 minutes, less time than it took you to kill them. Faster even if they have a keep with a waypoint to spawn to.

Agreed the zones need to be about 50% larger. It should take about 3-4 minutes real time at max run-speed buff between control points.

Example ratios:

Time between any two control points: 3 times the time it takes to resolve a 5 v 5 fight
Time from default respawn locate to nearest control point: 6 times the 5v5 Resolve time.

If we assume 1 minutes to resolve a fight then the distance between any control point should be 3 minutes and 6 minutes from the border keep.

The key in DAOC was the distance from the entrance to any of the keeps was a haul. It made wiping a zerg… relevant. The zones in that sense are too small. Either that or we need to implement rez sickness to pad virtual distance\time.

Zone size is a huge issue. Small manning or 5 manning, while possible, is too tight. Wiping a zerg means nothing, they are back in a min, not even enough time to run supplies to repair. Increase the zone sizes 3 to 5 times and i’ll bet a lot of the issues we are seeing would lessen dramatically.

I’m gonna start a thread, I think we the players can figure this out rather easily.

Scotsin.1546:

My main problem with WvW in guild wars 2, compared to Daoc has to be the zones. Not enough room to roam and mobs are spread out everywhere instead of small camps of them with empty spaces between.

Another problem would be having four different zones, and not one large zone like new frontiers had. Or if they have to stay separate, then the fast speed a player can respawn and return to a battle. Killing off a large number of players isn’t much of a victory when they can be back in 2 to 3 minutes, less time than it took you to kill them. Faster even if they have a keep with a waypoint to spawn to.

Agreed the zones need to be about 50% larger. It should take about 3-4 minutes real time at max run-speed buff between control points.

Example ratios:

Time between any two control points: 3 times the time it takes to resolve a 5 v 5 fight
Time from default respawn locate to nearest control point: 6 times the 5v5 Resolve time.

If we assume 1 minutes to resolve a fight then the distance between any control point should be 3 minutes and 6 minutes from the border keep.

The key in DAOC was the distance from the entrance to any of the keeps was a haul. It made wiping a zerg… relevant. The zones in that sense are too small. Either that or we need to implement rez sickness to pad virtual distance\time.

Better yet, realize that the other servers are just like your and realize they have the same issue population wise. Stop blaming “offpeak” because you offpeak players are worse then the other server’s offpeak players.

— See scoreboard reccomandation above, but you still see the guild tag. Guilds get noteriety. Guilds get famous. This is GUILD WARS not ME WARS. I know exactly what guilds are a threat and which ones are not. I know the who’s who of all the servers I’ve faced. In the WvW forums I see plenty of what you just described. Just because you haven’t been invited to alliance vent\ts3 servers doesn’t mean we aren’t doing that. We just know that spies abound and to keep on the low.

— It’s solid. Good rush if you escape, good sense of satisfaction when they die. It sounds more like you want WvW to be Quake Arena. They are easy enough to kill, easier then the days of breaking a camped a tower with a pair of PBAOE’ers at the top of the stairs. What it does it actually make the battle interesting rather then zerging over a group and not even bothering to stop like in DAOC. Literally we’d hit up Midgard, bard up, and roll over people without stopping with the exception to cast a grip of AOEs and PBAOEs then move on. I’ll pass on .5 second battles, I like this model.

— There is, if you get dropped and rally you have a debuff that reduces you health when you rally again. You cannot rally more then 4 times normally as the 4th downing is automatic death. There are 3 different snares off the top of my head, 4 different roots, and a crap load of dots. If people are escaping you either forgot to have a run speed buff, didn’t spec a snare, and both sound like a problem with the player doing the killing rather then the fleeing.

— I just hit them 4 more times and they die. Sounds like a DPS problem. Try rooting them in place, slapping a snare on them.. try… using…. your…. skills….

— Correct, it is ‘World v World’ not ‘Me v Them’ Looking for personal performance in a server versus server battle is irrelivant. However, personal gain can be a powerful motivator. Even the ability to have a scoreboard for Server and Guild would go a long way to helping. Having battles and enjoying ‘playing’ the game is key. You have been trained by WoW to believe in ‘end game’. The point is to enjoying playing the game, not getting to a destination.

Example
Server and Guild performance scoreboards listing (For each of the two):

• Daily (24) Top 10/20 players
• Weekittenop 10/20 players
• Rotation Top 10/20 players (reset each matchup)
• Monthly Top 10/20 players
• All Time Top 10/20 players

— Hell No! MLs and RRs shut out so many new players it was a joke. Running around 1 v 10’ing groups of new players was awful. ToA didn’t help and the artifacts alone just massacred new players. The problem was MLs and RPs created a ‘Rich get Richer’ gap leaving new players unable to compete. That problem only gets worse with time. However, cosmetic rewards I think are a great idea. The gear disparity is already bad enough since I can pretty much 1 v 5 people if they are a fresh 80s and God help them if they are up-leveled. We do not need to punish and shut out new players because you want to ‘pwn n00bz’ with a massive advantage though abilities and gear. It’s bad enough as it is, MLs and RPs would just exacerbate the problem. Cosmetics sure but DAOC suffered enough of that crap post ToA. It was great if you were on top, effortless kills 3 shotting new players doesn’t help anyone.

(cont)

Same arguments we heard from people about Darkness Falls and how PvP got in the way of seal farming. SSDD.

Kazim.2043:

Idgarad.6105:

Farm it for what? The 5 seals and a few blues they get every 24 hours? Or farm morons that keep banging their heads against a brick wall? No loss as far as I see. I could only hope that the morons getting ground up there rage quit and free up some room for some people smart enough not to feed.

So you accept this “camping” doesn’t belong to this game. If that’s the case, why not just saying “Remove siege weapons on Jumping Puzzles” instead of “They don’t get anything”

It’s not hard to write, just try: “Remove siege weapons on Jumping Puzzles”

Hell no let em camp. That fewer people hitting keeps and that fewer seige weapons on a keep.

SoPP.7034:

Idgarad.6105:

So it becomes a zerg rush to set up siege then camp for 2 weeks. Everyone else kicks back and tries to be first in 2 weeks time?

For something that provides no points, sure let em waste their time.[/quote]

So they get to farm it the entire time? That’s not a waste at all.[/quote]

Farm it for what? The 5 seals and a few blues they get every 24 hours? Or farm morons that keep banging their heads against a brick wall? No loss as far as I see. I could only hope that the morons getting ground up there rage quit and free up some room for some people smart enough not to feed.

SoPP.7034:

Idgarad.6105:

I am still trying to figure out what the problem is? I see “smart people set up impenetrable defense in jump puzzle” and I hear lemming-like sheeple saying “I keep smashing my face into an optional part of a war zone where the enemy keeps kicking the crap outta me and it hurts” so I have to ask, what exactly is the problem? Don’t go there and they have no reason to sit there. If they were botting this entire thread would make sense but… it sounds like they weren’t so if they have that kind of free time to sit and do nothing, go take all their keeps while they sit there. I don’t see a problem here at all.

So it becomes a zerg rush to set up siege then camp for 2 weeks. Everyone else kicks back and tries to be first in 2 weeks time?

For something that provides no points, sure let em waste their time.

I am still trying to figure out what the problem is? I see “smart people set up impenetrable defense in jump puzzle” and I hear lemming-like sheeple saying “I keep smashing my face into an optional part of a war zone where the enemy keeps kicking the crap outta me and it hurts” so I have to ask, what exactly is the problem? Don’t go there and they have no reason to sit there. If they were botting this entire thread would make sense but… it sounds like they weren’t so if they have that kind of free time to sit and do nothing, go take all their keeps while they sit there. I don’t see a problem here at all.

After 4 years in the Eve Online trenches I can say that OP is ‘misguided’. It’s clear based on the “Solution” that the problem is ‘competition’ and ‘free market’. The root problem is there isn’t enough demand to short a supply enough to drive prices back up.

Simple: Increase Demand.

How: Take a look at Eve Online. Large scale operations and ships require large scale supplies. Make items that take 400 Healing Long Bows from crafters.

Not only can you have the WvW front of the war but you can easily add what many call “Off Page” conflicts. Think of all those Koei sim games like Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Give guilds, players, and servers a reason to actually consume some of the product out there.

The free market works fine when there is enough demand to fuel supply. Need 30000 copper ore for that Copper Tower upgrade? That will drive up prices just like when you see 500 units at 33 cp and another 1000 at 34 cp (and so on).

The ‘problem’ is over-supply, not a free market.

Does it tell you in combat log if it is a critical? Because nothing I saw in the combat log said critical, if it does then we are talking 8k non-crits against 2500 toughness.

I’ve been 80 for over 3 weeks an wearing complete rare set of gear with 99% world exploration full pvp spec. Normally I would be getting hit for 400-800 for normal autoattack damage but now I have Thief players hitting for 2k on auto attack (effectively double dps now). I ran the math from what I could find and using some guildies a thief needs just shy 12k power… I can’t even find a way to stack 12k power counting food and oils. Even a full set of Seal gear doesn’t get close to that… very odd the sudden jump from 2 weeks ago.

Anyone seeing a sudden jump in DPS in WvW? Prior to 2 weeks ago things seemed normal but now I am getting hit for over 8k damage now the last couple days from thieves and a few rangers. I checked the math and did someone figure out how to get 12k Power? I’ve seen 2k normal attacks and 4-8k for abilities. Are people just hitting the top end gear now?

There is a solution in your example Helathir.

Reward the guild those people belong to influence for kills and objectives their members make and allow guilds to purchase the WvW tokens with influence or award the guild tokens based on those kills. The guilds can then choose to reward their support players accordingly and give proper recognition to their members.

You play support? Fine. Build a GDMF arrow cart, hit it a few times, and loot yourkittenbags and stop your Fitching. Man a cannon. Build a ballista. Go heal, do your support crap and hit up the arrow cart a few times.kittenI play a support and you’d be surprised how easy it is to get 20+ seals in an hour. THIS IS NOT WOW. We have these things called siege weapons for a reason. It didn’t take us long in DAOC to figure out you can wipe an entire tower full of people with a few portable ballistas and a single coordinated volley. (There was always somekittenidiot that would give ya LOS at the upper arch doorway)

“But it takes more supply to build then 1 person can carry.” Well who the hell are you supporting? Ghosts? A simple “Dropping an arrow cart” has yet to fail me in a group to get it built. Anyone, ANYONE, who play’s support complaining about a lack of seals, is ignoring 2/3rd of their options to support people.

“No Mercy for the Panda Kids”

Can’t wait for the whiney WoW kids to leave and go back to Mists of Pandacrapola. It’s a war zone, deal with it. That’s like complaining enemies are in Darkness Falls while you are trying to farm seals…. Oh wait the kids won’t get that reference…

Emma.2018:

Character name – Auriolu
Server – Underworld
Guild – Mocking Jay

Have same problems as some people spent 3.8 gold buying influence drinks from Nolan Guild Promoter and didn’t get any influence at all, made a ticket about that and spent 3 days receiving automatical responses not on subject, after all that waiting + systematical loss of Building Queue (bug) and having no idea either guild is even building anything at all or not, i got response from support and Boyyyyy i loved it:

Hello,

Thank you for your follow up. We are aware of an issue when using these items while in an overflow not applying the influence to guilds and are working to resolve them as soon as possible. Unfortunately we are unable to return to you the missing influence from this issue, or the money spent on the items. I apologize for the frustration and thank you for your understanding in this matter.

Regards,

GM Untharin
The Guild Wars Support Team

- so apparently its players fault that game makers couldn’t handle flow of players and made overflow servers and after you lose your gold cause of that u wont get it back.

Unfortunately we are unable to return to you the missing influence from this issue, or the money spent on the items. I apologize for the frustration and thank you for your understanding in this matter.

Bullkitten they can’t. Lazykitten kitten GM.

Solum Contego is bugged on Devona’s Rest. Vault is MIA, Can’t fix logo, can’t increase size, reasearch queues vanishing intermittently, cannot claim keeps despite we are already 200+ hours in worth of upgrades…

ShawnBuzu.8045:

I am sitting at lv45 with 1.5g. Now before the usual “play the market” and “craft and sell” comments come along, I just wanted to say that it is not fair to people who have only 3 hours chance to play everyday to spend a big chunk of time on the trading post. Currently, I get 2 silvers for completing a renown heart. Does that mean I should use all of it on a small totem or scale? It’s insane. But the problem isn’t the price of the material because considering MMO in general, we all know how meaningless 2s are. It’s the poor rate at which money is being given to the players. I mean first of all – ALL HUMANOIDS SHOULD DROP SILVERS. Not coppers, silvers. In another MMO which I’m not sure if i’m allowed to mention, a player gets ~20s for completing a quest at level 45. If a casual player earns 8 silvers in one hour, and then has to go spend it on a Journeyman’s Salvage Kit, then something is clearly wrong. While that same player wants to get his Tier 2 cultural armour and knows that he won’t. Or by the time he has enough money to buy it, he is 20 levels above it. So by then he would want the Tier 3 armour. But guess what? It’s insanely overpriced.

I see the American education system still lacks basic curriculum in economics. At least I can offer this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

Work on that first before posting again.

Tears… Welcome to Economic PvP. We former Eve Online players know this meta-game all to well. Wait till you get some serious demand for say 50,000 units copper ore.

For those of use that fought in the Trit and Moon Mineral wars, your tears are… delicious.

Solum Contego is recruiting on Devona’s Rest former DAOC\Warhammer players. Reconnect with RvR\PvP players.

Style

• PvP
• WvW-RvR
• PvE
• 18+
• TS3\Web Forum
• All Time zones welcome
• Fun
• IJAG Compliant

Solum Contego is a multi-game Internet guild in it’s 11th year of operation. Please enjoy the 6 year long hockey thread. You’ve been warned, we have an Eringobragh and we know how to use him!"

Unofficial Mottos:

• “We don’t have a plan and I’m pretty ‘darn’ sure it will work.”
• “The Nutty Bunny will heals j00!”
• “My cell phone doesn’t work! Why are their cigarettes sticking out of it?”
• “Warning: This thread may contain Sylus or portions of Sylus unfit for human consumption.”
• “I believe I have misplaced my common sense. Please return if found.”