Guild Wars 2

I go for more of a support type build with my ranger. Damage comes secondary as my group that I play with is very damage heavy. We have fun and everyone enjoys themselves, but I have no delusions that my low DPS is holding the group back.

Adding a permanent +20% crit chance, Regeneration, and 40-50% protection upkeep, along with either Sun, or Frost spirit (depending on if the group is more condition or power built at the time). They love it. It increases their damage and they feel good about the accomplishments we achieve. In WvW i have a completely different build that involves traps and longbow with ranged pets that works very well for keep defense.

Sebrent.3625:

Excellent discussion now fellas (and ladies if applicable).

I’ve always been curious about the use of Moas with a Melee oriented skirmishing build. Why? Because they are melee pets with an autocast AOE heal.

Since our melee weapons are largely direct damage oriented, Fury is a welcome addition, making the Red Moa a nice idea. Anyone tried that? With BM vigor trait, they are even better for melee.

---

Also, I’ve been curious about heavy +boon duration on Rangers. I don’t see much yet, but that’s largely because I’m not a huge fan of the Nature Magic trait line (compared to our others).

I’m running a heavy Spirit support build for my group. I usually start combat with a Fern Hound, pop his Regen boon F2, then switch over to the Red Moa for the rest of the fight. I use Axe/Warhorn 90% of the time and rarely are outside the range of the Moa heal. Its only 240 range, but if you know roughly when he is going to cast it make sure you are nearby. He will also usually cast it within a few seconds of switching to him. I will usually Switch pets, pop the Moa’s F2 Fury boon, then right after that he will use his AoE heal attack.

Unfortunatly the AoE heal is wasted most of the time, as there is very little control of when it goes off other than when you summon the pet. So if your primary focus of the Moa is for 100% Fury upkeep, then the heal is going to get wasted most of the time.

Group play is great for me, my damage is sub-par, but the group I run with LOVE the nearly constant protection boon, the perma Regen and Fury and the added Burn condition from Sun Spirit is great with some +condition duration. Not to mention several ways to rez people (Spirit of Nature and Search and Rescue)

I don’t worry too much about Might, as the Warrior and Guardian keep that boon up for us pretty consistently at 15+ stacks.

Great spreadsheet btw, printed both out!

I find that Fury and Regeneration are very easy to keep up the majority of the time.

Regeneration:
Healing Spring: 15 seconds every 30 seconds = 50% upkeep
Fern Hound: 13 seconds every 20 seconds (traited) = 65% upkeep
TOTAL = 115% upkeep

Fury:
Call of the Wild: 19.5 seconds every 28 seconds (traited) = 70% upkeep
Red Moa: 19.5 seconds every 24 seconds (traited) = 81% upkeep
TOTAL = 151% upkeep

This gives you quite a bit of room for error, and if you need to rearrange your traits a bit once you get proficient at keeping them up you could drop some boon duration, or the pet trait: Commanding Voice

I also pack mad king runes as each bird from the 6 rune effect counts as multiple attacks, which result in a massive additional heal after daggerstorm ends.

Its little tid-bits of information like this that keeps me coming back to the forums … thanks for the info, time to cash in on all the candycorn I still have in my bank!

I played a very heavy Crit build until I got into the higher level fractals, at which point my 11k hp Thief was getting 1 shotted too often.

I recently switched over from pure Berserker gear to a mix of Emerald Trinkets (Precision/Toughness/Power), and the armor set from AC (Precision, Vitality, Healing Power).

With a S/P weapon set, Signet of Malice, Omnomberry Pie and Pistol Whip I can take a TON of punishment … I would even venture to say more than my 80 Guardian who is also built to take damage.

I took a bit of a DPS hit with the loss of Crit Damage, but I still crit just as often so I can proc Omnomberry Pie, and the 9 quick attacks from Pistol Whip can heal me for 3k+ depending on the number of mobs I am hitting, and the 66% chance on crit to heal from the food.

Utility skills I take are Roll for Initiative, Shadow Refuge, and Signet of Agility.

Elite Skill is Dagger Storm, this skill will allow me to AoE tank large groups of mobs with great ease, single target it is quite lackluster and usually ends up sitting off cooldown on boss fights, unless I am desperate for a Stability boon.

My build is 10/30/0/20/10
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckmM9mobFLoobFLoax0GaoosqMaV

Deadly Arts 10:
Sundering Strikes: With a heavy Crit build you can stack the Vulnerability condition on multiple targets with Pistol Whips AoE very quickly.

Critical Strikes 30:
Practiced Tolerance: The 5% bonus to Vitality is surprizingly nice and adds about 1k health.
Combo Critical Chance: Passive 5% crit chance bonus using Pistol Whip, a no brainer for this build.
Executioner: 20% more damage for half of every fight is always nice.

Acrobatics 20:
Power of Inertia: Might on Dodge, very handy!
Assassins Reward: With the amount of Initiative you will be getting back from critical hits, this skill will end up healing you for a pretty good amount.

Trickery 10:
Thrill of the Crime: Might, Fury, and Swiftness on each Steal for you and nearby allies, very nice trait! The added 20% crit chance goes very nice with this build too.

Overall This seems to be a very solid and durable build, that has an amazing amount of self healing for maximum staying power, and with 20 points into Acrobatics you have a lot of mobility to move around if you need too.

Mixed Berry Pie

I do not think the build will work without Omnomberry Pie to be honest. The “Heal on Crit” effect has no internal cooldown, which means when you crit nearly every attack on an attack that hits 10 times in 2 seconds, you have 10 chances at 66% to heal for ~400. This is what keeps you alive through pretty much anything that can not one shot you. This is also how my 10k health Thief is able to face tank every dungeon path in the game and still be able to critically hit for an average of about 9k.

This is a very aggressive, and rather dangerous build. In order to really make it work you need to get your crit chance as close to 100% as you can, which usually means dropping all Toughness and Vitality.

Superior Sigil of Blood

I found the healing from the Sigil of Blood to be rather lackluster for this build. With the Internal cooldown of 2 seconds (might be as high as 5 … not 100% sure) you get about 90% of your healing from food, and about 10% from the sigil. I think you are better off getting a Rune of Accuracy to up your crit rate by another 5% to be honest.

This does well with Sc/F also.

No I do not believe it would. The only skills that make this build really viable for the Guardian are Zealot’s Defense, and Cleansing Flame. It is because of how many attacks actually happen during the animation. With Zealot’s Defense you get 9 attacks in about 1.5-2 seconds, and with Cleansing Flame you get 10 attacks in about the same time. It is these fast attacks and constant critical hits that keep this glass cannon build alive through nearly anything (again, as long as it does not 1 shot you)

ASP.8093:

“Glass” is fine in dungeons, especially with Pistol off-hand. You’re going to be spending a lot of time in Shortbow regardless of your stats anyway; might as well make it hit hard.

I’ve now done pretty much all the dungeon paths, and gotten into the fractal teen range and I have not had to drop out of melee range except for fights that require everyone to move out. This is a common misconception on these forums that Thieves need to drop in and out of melee range and rely on lower DPS ranged weapons such as the Shortbow or P/P. With a proper melee build and lots of evasion or lifeleech tactics you can survive in melee range just fine as a glass cannon build.

Nekroseth.5186:

Btw Kindread i understand how the “combo” works now, but would it not be better with some more compassion? You might heal many times, but really only slight.

The amount of healing you get from a steady stream of critical hits from Pistol Whip, combined with Signet of Malice, Rune of Blood, and Omnomberry Pie is enough to keep you up through just about anything. I say just about anything because of course there are some mobs that will 1 shot you, or just about anyone else if you do not move from time to time. Against your average dungeon mobs and bosses you can face tank with Pistol Whip in full Berserker’s armor/trinkets while life stealing like crazy.

The % that +Healing Power adds to Signet of Malice, and the Lifesteal food/runes is very minimal, to make a decent increase you would have to sacrifice too much damage, which is one of the reasons I love this build so much. In my normal dungeon group I can Pistol Whip for 9-12k damage and heal for around 2-5k depending on how many Omnomberry Pie procs I get and how many targets I am hitting. With 3-5 targets in front of me I fully heal myself every Pistol Whip. Ionly really go down if I am not paying attention, or learning a new dungeon and just dont know what to avoid yet.

Auesis.7301:

My current setup:

Full Berserker gear with Emerald Orbs
Mix of Emerald and Ruby/Ruby equivalent Ascended accessories, with exotic Soldier Amulet (too lazy to buy one I actually want)

0/30/0/20/20 with Roll for Initiative, Shadow Refuge, Smoke Screen, Dagger Storm.

Using S/P with:
Superior Sigil of Blood
Signet of Malice
Omnomberry Pie/Ghost

I run very nearly the exact same build. I can face tank pretty much anything with Pistol Whip, and Lifeleach. Dagger Storm is insane for groups of mobs … you just do. not. die.

Glass S/P Lifesteal build is the way to go. You will hit like a truck, and as long as you are actively attacking, you will not go down … this of course only applies to PvE.

Been running dungeons just fine here as a Glass Cannon Lifesteal build. In fact just about every run I do people comment about how fast and easy it was.

If you are feeling weak as a Thief, you should take some time to reevaluate your build/gear choices. The nerfs that have hit us were necessary, they in no turned us into “bottom feeders”.

No one really interested in the Lifesteal Guardian build eh?

Well my wife and I tried this build out last night and it worked very well.

We got her up to 72% natural crit chance, which was augmented by my Thief and our Warrior friend constantly dropping Fury boons on the group, which brought her up to 92% crit chance. Zealots Defense and Cleansing Flame were hitting like a truck! At one point I looked over at her screen and saw a 15k crit, we had her up to 22 stacks of Might at that point though.

She face tanked Path 1 and 2 of CoF without any problems in full Berserker gear. The only real problem I saw with this build is that with such a low health pool, if you are not attacking you go down really fast. You need to take as many Stun breakers as you can to avoid being CC’d at all. One Cleansing Flame brought her from about 15% health up to about 90% health … its a dangerous way to play, but its very possible to pull off. I would imangin in the higher level Fractals you would get 1 shotted a lot of you were not careful.

kaffaljidhma.1496:

Can you get by with 10 in valor? Selfless daring and shout recharge would be kind of nice for those spammy fractal bosses that don’t even let you get off a combo.

Thats a great idea, and something I may have to look into. On my Thief I am able to face tank most bosses, with the occasional dodge when necessary (some attacks you just have to move no matter what). What I am hoping to do here is to create a very high DPS Guardian via critical hits, and make him beefy through lifesteal. As I said, I know it works on a Thief with Pistol Whip … what I am not sure about is if it will work with a Guardian who has to deal with cooldowns (Thieves have no cooldowns).

Update

Apon looking at the Sword auto-attack chain attack, it looks like the final attack would work well with this build. It is a 3x attack that will hit a single target 3 times, or 3 targets once each. This may be a good filler while waiting for Zealot’s Defence, and Cleansing Flame to come off cooldown.

kaffaljidhma.1496:

The wiki states that there is either a 2 or 5 second cooldown on sigil activation. As such, for the purposes of healing, it’s hard to justify reliance on fast hitting skills when at that crit chance level any other weapon would work just as well. You could possibly get away with empowering might + altruistic healing for the bulk of it, but sigil of blood would mostly be consigned to topping off.

There is a 2 sec Internal Cooldown on the Sigil, but not on the Omnomberry Pie, which you would get most of your healing from. With just the Pie my Thief can fully heal himself in about 2 Pistol Whips depending on how many procs he gets from the Omnomberry Pie. I would consider replacing the Sigil of Blood, because as you said, there is an internal cooldown.

Basically what I would like to do is create a Lifesteal build based around 2 skills, Zealot’s Defense, and Cleansing Flame.

The idea here is to get my crit chance up to a significant level (60-70%) and wear Berserker’s armor, trinkets, and weapons. I would use the Superior Sigil of Blood and Omnomberry Pie for % chance to heal on crit.

The only reason I think this would work is because of my Thief build centered around the same concept but using the skill Pistol Whip, which does 9 quick attacks and can heal me for pretty insane amounts. This makes my Thief quite “tanky” while wearing DPS gear and outputting some really nice numbers.

So to break it down a bit further, I am thinking the 9 attacks from Zealot’s Defence, along with the 10 attacks from Cleansing Flame could equate to a very significant amount of self healing, while maintaining a lot of damage. Even as a Thief I am able to face tank pretty much anything in the game with just Pistol Whip … Could this be used through a Guardian build?

This is the build I am considering:
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mccoc9Mz0mGLrmmGvNmaxGVVMMaqVo08kil7khT7070c7kGf70V7ofD70m

Any feedback is appricated.

EDIT: I should also note that this is for PvE only.

buki.3108:

AH Crithammer
12345

My wifes been playing a Guardian for about 2 months now. Shes tried several builds, her two favorites so far have been Mace/Focus AoE group healing. She found she could outheal pretty much anything thrown at her with a good Vit/Tough/H.Power gear set, but did very little damage. She then switched over to the aforementioned “Crithammer” build and has really enjoyed it. She did find some of her survivability went down, but her kill speed nearly doubled!

If your primarly PvE (we dont PvP) you may want to consider this.

@evanovix
I very recently switched over to Critical Haste running the S/P weapon set, and I have to say it is quite fun! Granted, as you said, there are times it may proc at an odd time. This usually only happens when I am soloing, or in a large dungeon event that takes a few minutes to complete. Once you get your crit up high enough with Pistol Whip you will proc it pretty much exactly on its internal cooldown which is 45 seconds. I rarely pay attention to it, but as I use it more and more I do find myself switching to a full health target just before I feel it is going to go off … sometimes it works, other times ….

Ranged mobs usually are not too big an issue if you have sufficient lifesteal. basically use the #2 skill to shadowstep to the ranged guy, and the melee guys will just follow you over. If you have a group of mobs, just stay with the majority and you should be able to heal through any damage the ranged guys are throwing at you.

I have found non-crittable mobs to be my bane. Things such as Turrets, or large scale event mobs such as dragons and such that are impossible to crit can be a realy pain when your entire build is centered around the ability to crit.

I really enjoy the Sword/Pistol playstyle. In full damage (Berserker) gear you can be very beefy with “heal on crit” food and sigils.

My primary playstyle has me hitting most of my buttons every fight.

1. is a rather powerful autoattack chain
2. is a shadowstep that if you hit again will remove a condition .. used very often
3. is my goto ability for decent damage, and a TON of self healing
4. I rarely use.
5. is a great AoE blind that is extremly useful when pulling groups of mobs
6. I rarely use, as the passive for my heal heals me for more through #3 skill usage (heal on hit)
7. is Roll for Initiative. I save this for getting out of stuns, the added initiative is a bonus
8. is Shadow Refuge, an amazing skill you will want to master .. it has MANY uses and shines in groups.
9. is Signet of Agility, passively it adds to my crit chance, and when you activate it removes conditions, I try and save this for when I am low on initiative and can not rely on skill #2 to cleanse.
10. is Dagger Storm, which I usually save for large group encounters, with enough crit chance it basically makes you immortal in PvE for the duration if you use heal on crit food/sigils.

1. Are thiefs mobile and class that requires brains to chooce what to skill use and not just spam couple buttons?

With the setup listed above, yes. Lots of button pushing, dodge and evade tactics. You also need to focus quite a lot on mob positioning because of the mechnics of the #3 skill Pistol Whip.

2. Does thief survive? Also soloing tought mobs?

Very beefy in PvE from all the self heals, and will allow you to do quite a lot of damage in full damage gear at the same time. As for soloing tough mobs, I have soloed most [Group Event] champions.

3. Can thief be played as supporter type?

Outside of the skill Shadow Refuge I do not really play my Thief as a support class. There are builds you can find out there for Thieves that focus on Support (read: Venomous Aura). My normal group consists of a Warrior, Guardian, and Necromancer, all who support the group in different ways. I just bring damage to the table, and a lot of it, which they seem to appricate greatly.

I just think there should be a deciding factor other than “Hey, I got 100g! Ima Commander!” As least a voting system would give some kind of indication that you have had 100-1000 people in the past give you a vote.

As I mentioned in my post, I dont think people outside of the persons group should be able to vote them up or down either. This would stop people from, as you said, “server hopping just to thumbs down” someone.

And you are right, it would have to be regulated somehow.

I think they should impliment a “Thumbs Up” rating that you can give people. Once you reach X# of Thumbs Up you are granted either a PvE icon, or a PvP icon. You should only be able to give someone a Thumbs Up if you are grouped, to prevent people from randomly decreasing your Thumbs Up points pool just beacuse they woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

I have yet to run into a “Commander” that was actually leading. I have grouped with a few in dungeons and its the exact same. As Porky said, the Commander icon does not mean anything except that person had 100 gold … and is now likely broke.

Webley.1295:

daggerstorm + signet of malice is a great way to heal on a bunch of mobs and gives 8 seconds of not using inititive giving it time to fully regen

This is an excellent point. To add to it; If you have sufficient critical chance (50-60% and the aformentioned Omnomberry Pie and Sigil of Blood you will be unkillable for the 8 seconds of Dagger Storm if you have 4+ mobs to hit. My normal group will no longer run Fractals without me because of this one ability because once you reach the higher level of Fractal runs the groups of mobs you run into can be extremly painful. This skill allows you to tank them, and in many cases, quite nearly kill them, without any fear of dying.

Tulisin.6945:

Pretty much anything with lots of crit, lots of hit volume, and Signet of Malice+Omnomberry Pie can face-tank things. Omnomberry pie is pretty broken without a cooldown. Death Blossom works, as Webley pointed out, but most people use Pistol Whip from S/P since it also grants access to a blind field which completely trivializes “tanking” anything sub-boss.

Listen to Tulisin, he is usually right.

I was about to say this same thing. I run a “tanky” type build and have done pretty much all the dungeon paths, including quite a few fractal levels. The primary way I survive is through the skill Pistol Whip. This skill attacks 9 times VERY quickly, and with a crit chance of 50-60% you can see a LOT of very quick critical hits.

Now combine all these crits with (as Tulisin said) Omnomberry pie, or the equilivant for your level, and you get a 66% chance to heal yourself for each crit. Also toss on a Sigil of Blood for an additional 33% chance to heal per crit (keep in mind the sigil has an internal cooldown of 2 seconds or something close to that). On top of that keep Signet of Malice equip and you will heal for every attack.

This build works very well with the Sword/Pistol weapon set. Also the Pistol Whip skill has a built in Intrrupt, and a short evade mechnic which will allow you to avoid damage for the first 1-2 seconds of the animation.

Now do not assume you can just face tank every mob in the game this way, you still need to move around and dodge roll from time to time. This is true for every “tanky” type build reguardless of class.

For gear I run a pure glass cannon Berserker’s armor and trinkets, as you will be healing so much, so fast you really do not need toughness or vitality to survive most encounters. The one big downfall of this build is if the enemy has some form of CC (croud control). Knockdowns in peticular are VERY dangerous, and as such you should take at least 1, preferably 2 ways to remove these types of conditions. If you are not attacking, you will die quite quickly.

The #5 skill of the S/P weapon set (again, as Tulisin mentioned) is called Black Powder. This is rather unreliable on bosses, as they have a pretty strong resistance to blind effects, but for trash mobs, it can keep them pretty well blinded. Just watch out for AoE damage, as that can still damage you.

“This Apple is absolutely NOTHING like that Orange over there!”

Anyone else read this tread title as “Nobody gives a kitten about underware.” ?

EDIT: Looking for some input on how to put out more damage

So, i’ve done some fractals, and most of the current dungeon paths on exp mode and done pretty well. I run in full Berserker armor/trinkets/weapons, this is my build.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckmMMM9MobFLMobFLMpx9MfoazsqV

I run with a Superior Rune of Blood for the added Lifesteal on crit, Omnomberry Pie for some amazing healing on crit (1-2 pistol whips can fully heal me), and Signet of Malice. These 3 things are my primary defense, as I can heal through most damage while spamming pistol whip.

My Pistol Whips are hitting for about 9k, with spikes up to 12k when my group grants me some might stacks (I run with a Guardian and Warrior who both toss out a lot of might stacks, I usually sit around 5 stacks and can spike up to 15 stacks.

While I do get Downed from time to time the evade and interrupt from Pistol Whip along with some well timed Dodge rolls keep me alive quite well. This along with the massive amount of self heals I get from my list above. I feel like I am doing decent damage but just wanted to get some feedback from the Thief community to see if I can do anything else. I have tried a heavy condition bleed build with D/D but the damage was very lackluster, though the survivability was amazing (Death Blossom ftw!). I would also consider a backstab build, but always felt it was more of a burst build to be used in PvP or WvW, which I do not really do.

Signets are not too bad in PvE. If the Thief knew his character well and was geared correctly a full signet Thief could DPS with the best of them. I personally use 2 Signets most of the time. While solo questing/Farming I always equip Signet of Shadows for the 25% increased move speed. When I group in dungeons I always switch it out for Shadow Refuge … becuase its just awesome. The one Signet that never leaves my bar is Signet of Agility, because I run a crit build it packs quite a punch.

I also use Signet of Malice for my heal, but I think you are refering to the 3 utility skill signets.

tl:dr A well played Thief could equip pretty much any skill combo and do well if he or she knew how to play there character well. I grouped with a full Signet warrior a few night ago that preformed amazingly well in all 3 paths of CoF.

I always use food, but this is primarily because my build requires a very specific food type to properly fuction. I have around 12 stacks of various poitions for different dungeons for the increased damage/defence against specific enemy types .. that 10% adds up quick with your critting for 8-10k.

As someone mentioned, the Trading Post does not have the greatest search features, which may be part of the “food ignorance” problem. If people could easily see what was availiable, more and more people would be willing to shell out some silvers for the VERY beneficial buffs you can get.

Here is a link that I use when helping people decide which food to use:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Food

Old post, but I thought I would add to this.

There are “Blessing” buffs you can get also that add a small bump to your major stats (Power, Precision, Vitality, and Toughness). These can be purchased in Wayfarer Foothills at 4 different karma Heart merchants for about 21 Karma each and last for 10 minutes. I actually have people ask me quite frequently when doing dungeons what those animal buff icons are. It is surprizing how few people know about these.

Again, it is a minor buff to your stats (around 6-10 to each stat) but every little bit helps!

Osskil.1029:

(large-ish health pool, good sustained damage, high toughness, less focus on gimmicky burst)?

Missed your last sentence here … I suppose my lifesteal build may be considered “gimmicky”.

:(

I can stay in melee range for the vast majority of fights with no Toughness or Vitality gear. The trick is to get your crit chance up as high as you can and stack Superior Sigil of Blood, and Omnomberry pie with your Signet of Malice.

Sigil of Blood has a 30% chance to heal you on critical hit.
Omnomberry Pie has a 66% chance to heal you on critical hit.
Singet of Malice heals you every hit.

With these 3 things, a very high crit chance, and the skill Pistol Whip from the Sword/Pistol weapon set you withstand some serious punishment. I have face tanked all 3 paths in AC, and all 3 paths in CoF with very little problem. Ovbiously you need to dodge some attacks, and keep a handy supply of condition removal/CC removal abilities available. If you get knocked down for more than a few seconds, chances are you will die.

Here is my build: http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckmM9mobFLoobFLopx0f0oazsqM

I choose Daggerstorm over Thieves guild because of the Stability boon you get … remember, knockdowns kill you very quickly.

My gear is full Berserker’s.

EDIT: Thought it might also be worth mentioning that when your self heals are being outdamaged just drop Shadow Refuge ontop of yourself and continue to spam Pistol Whip. The added healing from SR and those few seconds that the mobs stop attacking you is more than enough to get back to full health. Seriously, you will heal for 1000s and 1000s every second this way.

Shady C.5041:

No – I can admit perhaps it was my own misconceived perception, if you are saying you didn’t get that vibe. But the way he says he was “shocked” at all the self heals, it gave me an implication that he thought thieves had way more than every other class, and were a tanky class because of the blind statement that COLLECTIVELY, thieves have lots of heal mechanics.

I appologize for taking so long in responding … Please rest assured that this post was in no way meant to imply that Thieves are overpowered, or could heal more than any other class. As I stated previously there have been several people asking for ways to make their Thieves more durable without gimping their damage and wearing Vit/Tough gear. This post is to help those people understand that Thieves have more than 1 way to self heal, and we can do it quite well! In fact all professions have similar ways to heal themselves and ANet seems to have done a pretty good job in balancing this.

I hope this clears things up for you, and I am sorry if my wording in the first sentence in my post was misleading.

Just wanted to BUMP this post for awesomeness!

Please give us a consumable quickbar … it is quite annoying to go digging through your backpacks for a stealth kit, or a regen seed everytime I want to use one!

I did not read all the posts, so if this was covered, I appologize for the repetition.

I primarly run a D/D condition build, and with my current gear I get a lot more bang for my buck going with a Shorbow due to the bleeds and condition damage granted by said weapon.

I use to play a S/P Crit build, and with that particular build I found the P/P to be a better option. The reason being is that the vast majority of my damage came from melee. Even with the Shortbow my damage suffered greatly when I had to back out into range. With a P/P weapon set, Signet of Malice, Sigil of Blood on my mainhand pistol, and some lifesteal food I can VERY quickly heal myself back to full and get back into the game with my S/P set and resume my heavy damage rotation.

So to recap: (my personal preference) Use a Shortbow if you run a condition build, P/P if you run heavy crit.

Shady C.5041:

This thread is such propaganda against Thieves.

You wanna criticize the class, the only thing to mention is Heartseeker. And I can understand hating on other things like Steal or Cloak & Dagger, if you’re a bad player/scrub.

But saying they HEAL too much?

You just hit a whole new level of bad.

What the heck are you talking about? This is just an information post about the different ways a Thief can heal … no where did I mention that they heal too much, only that the option to take additional healing methods were possible. There have been posts in the past on these forums, and others from people asking about how to make their thieves more durable, so I compiled some information about different ways we can heal.

I really do not understand why these threads keep poping up. Steal is a great skill, could it use some work? Sure! Better ranged option might be nice, but for what it is, it does its job well. An instant cast shadowstep skill that can be significantly traited to do some pretty amazing things. I would not go out of my way to get all the traits associated with Steal, but you will find steal driven traits in just about every thief trait line. Personally I would never run a build without putting 5 points into Trickery to give me 3 Initiative from Steal, and as a poster above me said, Mug from the Deadly Arts line is great for some added burst damage.

Sorry to those that find this skill useless, it is rarely off cooldown while I am out in PvE or PvP.

Scootabuser.4915:

your using haste in PvE? wouldn’t a party helping utility skill like shadow refuge be more useful? It’s BARELY increasing your DPS…

From what I understand, using Haste in a Pistol Whip build is not only for the increase in DPS, but for situational healing via Signet of Malice. You can heal yourself for 1000’s and 1000’s of health in the 4 second duration. Even more if you use lifesteal food, Sigil of Blood, Shadow Refuge … the list goes on and on.

agnostAnts.7065:

So, does no one use Withdraw? I’m personally in love with it. It’s an evade, it cleanses slowdowns, it’s on a 15 second (!) cooldown… The only downsides I can see to it is that it might not heal as much as the other heal skills, and that it doesn’t get as many trait benefits like the others would.

I tried to love Withdraw …. I really did. But at the end of the day I found that I already had plunty of ways to evade, and the healing from SoM with my fast attacking D/D build actually healed me for quite a lot more.

The saving grace of Withdraw is the Immobilized/chilled/crippled condition removal … which I sorely miss. Its a great heal, and if it works for you, then all the power to ya!

Slic.2406:

What you should be pointing out is how effective the thief is at STAYING AWAY from damage.

This is a great point. I personally only run SoM and Assassin’s Reward and rarely utilize them as I am in a nearly constant evade state. But when the time comes that I do take some spike damage from a bad dodge roll, or just not paying attention to the big baddie with the club, I have some way of staying in the fight that does not include running away and relying on a ranged weapon which does significantly less damage.

Runcore.5107:

Haha, another crying kids topic XD So what happened? Some thief killed you and you need to go cry on forum? You are so much embarrassing.

Ummm … what?

I think you may have mistaken the reason for this post.

Some great thoughts in this thread, thank you all for participating!

Everyone has their own ideas on how to build a good Thief, I have seen people sware by pure Berserker gear and relying 100% on dodge mechanics to survive. This actually works quite well for some people, others like to rely of a few of these healing methods to help get them back in the game when they make a mistake, or just for sustained survivability. Some people enjoy building tanky type builds that do very little damage but can survive pretty much anything!

The reason I made this list was not to try and encourage people to use every single type of heal that is listed, but to help make people aware that may not know that Thieves can actually be very durable. Even when you miss a vital dodge roll, or other evade mechanic you have some kind of backup plan to keep you from going down.

Please try and stay on topic and avoid flaming each other, just try to remember that everyone enjoyes this class in different ways.

Incurafy.6329:

sorrow.2364:

Someone said that thieves are squishy.
lol

Considering that if you use all of this healing ability at once you’d be hitting with rubber knives and shooting water pistols.

This list was not made to encourage people to utilize ALL of the possible healing availiable to the Thief class, but prehaps a few of them.

For example someone could use Signet of Malice, and Assassin’s Reward and find that they are healing for 1245 per cast of Pistol Whip with no healing gear. It is just simply a reference guide for people that are curious about what we have availiable to us.

sorrow.2364:

Someone said that thieves are squishy.
lol

It really depends on your build. If you focus on all the healing methods listed above your damage would suffer, but utilizing a few of these with all the abilities that Thieves have to avoid damage, then yes, thieves are actually quite tanky!

Great addition PopeUrban, I will update the list!

So this question often pops up, and after doing some research I was Shocked at the amount of self heals a Thief was capable of!

So lets get right into it: (All data assumed to be @ lvl 80)

Signet of Malice:
Healing: 100/hit
Healing Coefficient: 5%
EXAMPLE: with 1000 +Healing SoM would heal for 150/Hit

Assassin’s Reward:
Healing: 69/initiative spent
Healing Coefficient: 3.5%
EXAMPLE: with 1000 +Healing AR would heal you for 104 per initiative spent

Leeching Venoms
Healing: 325/hit while any venom was active
Healing Coefficient: 20%
EXAMPLE: with 1000+Healing LV would heal you for 525 per hit

Superior Sigil of Blood
Healing: 453/critical hit (30% chance)
Healing Coefficient: 10%
EXAMPLE: with 1000+Healing SoB would heal you for 553 per critical hit (30% chance)

Omnomberry Pie
Healing: 325/critical hit (66% chance)
Healing Coefficient: 10%
EXAMPLE: with 1000+Healing OP would heal you for 425 per critical hit (66% chance)

Shadow’s Rejuvenation
Healing: 293/sec while in stealth
Healing Coefficient: 10%
EXAMPLE: with 1000+Healing SR would heal you for 393 per second while in stealth

Shadow Refuge
Healing: 355/sec for 4 seconds+1 on initial cast
Healing Coefficient: 18%
EXAMPLE: with 1000+Healing SR would heal you for 535 on initial cast + 535/sec for 4 seconds

Shadow Refuge Combo Finisher (Dark Field w/Projectile)
Healing: 202/hit
Healing Coefficient: 10%
EXAMPLE: with 1000+healing the finisher would heal you for 302 per hit
note: Projectile finishers that hit multiple targets such as Dancing Dagger will trigger the Finisher heal for each enemy it hits. The Dark combo field will refresh each second you stand within it. So if you had 4 targets, you could use Dancing Dagger 4 times before the combo field ended for a maximum healing of 3232 (202*4=808*4=3232, or 4832 w/1000+Healing)

Shadow Protector
Healing: 130/sec (grats you and others that you stealth the Regeneration boon)
Healing Coefficient: 12.5%
EXAMPLE: with 1000+Healing SP would heal you for 255/sec

So lets talk for a moment about strategy…

Skill: Pistol Whip
Hits your target 9 times
Healing From:
*Signet of Malice: 900 w/no+Healing, 1350 w/1000+Healing

*Assassin’s Reward: 621 w/no+Healing, 936 w/1000+Healing

*Superior Sigil of Blood: 453/crit w/no+Healing, 553/crit w/1000+Healing
~~~Assuming a 50% crit chance, at 9 attacks you would heal 4.5 times which would = 2038/Pistol Whip w/no+Healing, 2488/Pistol Whip w/1000+Healing (30% Chance)

*Omnomberry Pie: 325/crit w/no+Healing, 425/crit w/1000+Healing
~~~Assuming a 50% crit chance, at 9 attacks you would heal 4.5 times which would = 1462/Pistol Whip w/no+Healing, 1912/Pistol Whip w/1000+Healing (66% Chance)

*Leeching Venom: 325/hit with no+Healing, 525/hit w/1000+Healing for 5 attacks which would = 1625 w/no+Healing, 2625 w/1000+Healing

TOTAL: 6646 w/no +Healing, 9311 w/1000 +Healing per use of the Pistol Whip skill (this of course varies based on your likelyhood of critical chance and the availiabilty of Venom skills).

Skill: Shadow Refuge
Cloak yourself and your allies and heal them over time
Healing From:
*Shadow Refuge: 355/sec for 5 ticks = 1775 w/no +Healing, 2675 w/1000 +Healing

*Shadow’s Rejuvenation: 293/sec for 5 ticks = 1465 w/no +Healing, 1965 w/1000 +Healing

*Shadow Protector: 130/sec for 5 ticks = 650 w/no +Healing, 1275 w/1000 +Healing

TOTAL: 3890 w/no +Healing, 5915 w/1000 +Healing

A Special Thanks to PopeUrban for the following information:
Shadow Refuge Combo Finisher (Dark Field w/Projectile)
Utilizing the skill Dancing Dagger from a Dark Combo Field

*Healing from: Combo Finisher = 202+10% of Healing Power

*Healing from: Signet of Malice = 100/hit+10% of Healing Power

*Healing from: Assassin’s Reward = 69/initiative spent+3.5% of Healing Power

TOTAL: per cast of Dancing Dagger hitting 2 targets: 1484 w/no+Healing, 2224 w/1000+Healing
**Please note this does not include the chance to lifesteal on crit, or all the passive healing you get from standing within the Shadow Refuge.

It would not be optiomal to take all of these forms of healing, as it would severly kitten your damage, also depending on the circumstances you may not get the full healing effect (i.e. the mob moves out of range of your Pistol Whip, or a mob plants an AoE on top of your Shadow Refuge forcing you to move.

If anyone can think of any other ways to heal I would like to add them to this list. Equally if you find any errors in my math, or something just does not make sence please let me know.

Thanks!

Jefzor.7145:

I wouldn’t recommend relying on melee too much. You’ll probably want to be using shortbow most of the time. Some mobs are safer to melee than others, know when you can melee and when you need to keep your distance.
Have an escape button, like shadowstep or blinding powder ready.
Sword/pistol is nice against trash mobs.
Heartseeker spam on bosses that are below 25% is also really nice.

I run melee about 70% of the time in dungeons, its all about which skills you use and the % of time you are actually “hittable”.

Take the skills: Pistol Whip, or Death Blossom. Both of these skills have a built in evade which makes you unharmable for the majority of the animation. They are a great initiative dump. Once you get low on Initiative back out, swap to a ranged weapon set and go to town with it until you have enough initiative to get back in there safely.

I am not saying a full time Shortbow Thief is not viable, but a high crit build with Pistol Whip, or a high condition damage build with Death Blossom (as 2 examples, there are more) will out damage Cluster Bomb/Choking Gas. Now if it is your first time through a dungeon and you are unfamiliar with mob/boss mechnics then you may be more of an asset to your team if you stay at ranged … a dead Thief does no damage.

I have been playing a very heavy – glass canon – condition damage build with Dagger/Dagger weapon set.

The above poster got it right in the first sentence … “Hit and RUN!”

Basically on boss fights I will run in, drop Caltrops, hit Death Blossom, dodge roll for the extra caltrops (from the trait: Uncatchable), then Death Blossom again, then dodge roll .. etc. etc. until I am out of endurance at which point I will hit Roll for Initiative to get out of harms way. I will then quickly switch to a Shortbow and spam SB skill #2: Clusterbomb until Caltrops are off cooldown. I then pop Steal for an initiative boost and repeat the rotation.

The trick to remember here is that while you are in the Death Blossom animation you are effectivly immune to all damage (just as if you were dodging). So the entire time I am in melee range I am only effectivly hittable about 5-10% of the time. This is still long enough to eat a hit or two, but after a few runs you will learn how to time your attacks to avoid even that.

I can not speak for your D/P weapon set as I have not used it extensivly enough.

As a Thief I dont think you can just 100% melee .. granted melee damage is their strong suit, but you are kittening yourself if you try and sware off ranged attacks all together. Shortbow is just too good to ignore.

So how many people here have accidently hit Death Blossom and launched themselves off a cliff and fallen to their death?

Lets here some funny DB stories!

Mine: I came apon someone struggling with a Skill Point mob, so I come running up to save the day (I had already gotten the point). I pop my Venom skill, pop Caltrops as I am closing to melee range, strafe to the side of the mob to avoid going over the cliff only to find out I did not move over enough and before I knew it I fell to my death. To make matters worse the guy I was trying to save sends me a tell afterwards saying that was one of the funniest things he’d ever seen in this game!

I have found in my limited experience with the Thief that Power is a better secondary stat than Precision when running a very heavy Condition Damage build.

Chance on Crit items are really great, but for a build that has to rely so heavly on condition damage it seems to me like increaseing your base power would net you a better gain than stacking as much crit as you can and hoping to get as many Chance on Crit procs as possible.

I’ve found a good condition damage build to include 30 points in Deadly Arts.
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckzzc0zMoMnbooMnbox9MpfmVbMac
Wearing Carrion gear for the condition damage, additional Power, and Vitality for a bit of coushion durning heavy AoE fights (not needed most of the time as a D/D with dodge traits you can avoid most damage).

The other option that it OP is suggesting is to wear Rabid gear with just as much Condition Damage on it, but it has Precision, and Toughness instead of Power and Vitality. I think this could be a viable build, and may be a lot of fun to try. I would still assme that Carrion gear would net a great Damage per Second ratio with a D/D setup due to the attack speed and from the base damage increase from Power.

brunohstein.9038:

I’m really not sure about the +5% dagger damage. I have chosen it to try to get a little more damage without relying on conditions, but I don’t know if it helps much. I have already tried Residual Venoms but I am not sure how much difference that last strike actually does in the end. The Panic Strike is a good option there too, I will try it.

I like the idea of increasing our physical damage output a bit. The way I understood Residual Venoms (and I may be wrong here) is that the extra attack will add 1 stack of Poison to your target.

This will effectively extend your poison damage on the target by 6 seconds. Depending on your traits you could keep the poison damage up indefinetly. Though according to my math the poison effect, as it only stacks duration, and not intensity, will only add about 189 damage/sec for the duration of a single stack. So assuming my math is correct, with 1000 Condition Damage, Residual Venoms will add about 189 DPS, or 1,134 damage per use of the skill Spider Venom (every 36 seconds with the 20% reduction to cooldown trait).

The additional 5% dagger damage is constant. So to compare the damage with Residual Venom we will take a look at the amount of damage you can do with just your dagger attacks over a 36 second period.

I’ll have to test that out tonight when I get home!