Guild Wars 2

Zenith.7301:

Both are garbage weapons for PvE with abysmal DPS.

GS is the worst of them.

Maul hit for what a thief’s bounding dodge does (a trait damage proc). It’s that pathetic.

What is “Garbage” and “Abysmal” in this context? Like 5%? 10% difference? Those are hard to quantify.

Fluffball.8307:

Don’t forget to take into account the ‘sword’ got several buffs via offhand axe skills and trait.

Man I wish I didn’t make Sunrise T_T

So I enjoy the GS though I know it used to be about 15% less DPS. I was wondering if anyone knew what that was like now with the few GS maul tweaks since way back in the day?

Yeah it’s pretty awful to swap pets and get that extra speed only for your pet to waste all of his just durdling at your side.

I would love to be able to use Sunrise without getting people rolling their eyes within dungeons. Maybe bring it within 5% of sword damage so it’s still less for for sword purists while being within reasonable reach.

So PLEASE some greatsword buffs to AA damage.

Kind of sick of this stuff at this point. Numerous complaints about the way the druid works; “nerf it”

… no, guys. That’s NOT the way we wanted this to go >_>

EDIT: And let me clarify, I won’t say the blind isn’t too much but if it is THAT should be on a separate cooldown, NOT the healing. “We want you to be a healer! Just … you know … not a good one?”

Count me as someone who would like some damage bump to the Greatsword auto attacks. I get sword exists but if people don’t like trying to handle the auto attack animation, I don’t think they should be punished AS badly to their DPS as they are currently.

Sandpit.3467:

Why would anyone that wanted to roll a ranger ever want any of this junk?

Why does ANet HATE rangers?

I think they love us right now and as a ranger day one (got my 3 year anniversary stuff) I’m stoked. Don’t speak for everyone.

I’m excited and happy with what I see with the druid along with hoping the berserker meta dies. Stoked!

My only complaint is the astral form. It falls a little into the colors of guardians. Would have preferred a nature avatar?

Explain to me how the Condi cleansing works.

As it stands I want to be Marksman and Beastmaster with my third trait being druid so I wouldn’t have WS line.

I’m in agreement though. I’d rather it stay in our color wheel house.

You gentle folk must tell those of us at work what’s happening with druids since we can’t get to twitch T_T

Escalation. CS is 99% the problem and complaint. Until thats gone then we need to get rid of PU. When that’s gone, we should look at their burst which is a little high. When thats gone and mesmers are back to being the class no one picks, then MAYBE its fine … after nerfing some condition damage a bit more of course.

Change CS from 5 to 10 seconds. Keep these changes small to start.

Until they separate damage from PVE and PVP, any damage nerfs to Mesmers need to drop off the planet, thanks.

Gabriell.4856:

Levetty.1279:

Gabriell.4856:

With 4 bounce, the damage coef would be 2.1 which is pretty dang close to thief’s BS of 2.4.

Why didn’t you say that before? We can’t have Mesmer being as strong as other classes, that would be horrific.

I know right!

It was totally “reasonable” for a weapon skill that is unblockable, apply condition, apply boon, hit super hard, create clone, range, cannot be reflected or stopped by swirling wind be as strong as an attack that is restricted by position and required either a combo, heal, or utility to pull off.

It wasn’t as strong. 2.1 is less than 2.4 :P

Let’s be fair that they’re only human, guys. They’re allowed to be bad at their jobs just like anyone else :P

Passive aggressive joke since Duelist’s Discipline and other bugs have been going around for awhile; reported and posted with no fixes while still putting out other rebalancing? Or reverting Mantras while never, until now, declaring it was a bug despite all the questions raised? Yes, I think they’re actually doing a poor job especially with how slow the turn around is for these bug fixes and how terrible they’ve been about communication in many aspects.

I joke a lot and don’t take the forums too seriously but I’m honestly very disappointed in Arena-net devs with their turn-around times.

Levetty.1279:

Not only was auto attack damage designed with the idea of having 3 phantasms out constantly somehow, the numbers havn’t really changed much since early beta where clones did the same auto attack damage as you.

Magical christmas land of PVE. And the burst from PVP hinders the other aspects of the game for mesmers. I’ve been holding out hope but maybe the Mesmer is just NOT designed for PVE play nearly as much given its pvp utility. I don’t want this to be the case but everytime one of my phantasms dies in pve I cry inside … and out >_>

Well I was happy to come back and check on this thread to see I’m not the only one displeased with so much damage depending on phantasms. Giving it back to the weapons/clones seemed the safest bet but other ideas are great. I doubt A-net will ever do this as it would be a big overhaul and if they had any intention of caring about this kind of thing, they would have done so in the big overhaul from specializations already.

I can dream though.

Zenith.7301:

They don’t care about PvE, last instanced PvE content update was 2 years ago.

Rangers and necromancers have been rotting in garbage land for over 3 years in PvE, while guardian/ele/warrior/thief have been coasting in supremacy for just as long. Nothing done.

They’re set on their e-sport balancing and PvE players be kitten ed.

It’s OK, PvE players can vote with their wallets for FFXIV/Wildstar/WoW where they know they’ll get some meaningful PvE content and balancing.

I know their “adventure” pve announcement for content seemed … unappealing to me. The solo stuff that’s timed. I don’t pvp a whole lot and maybe that just means the game’s on fumes for me. Luckily I have voted with my wallet somewhat. I haven’t pre-purchased HoT yet and haven’t been giving them money for their gem store stuff in a year since I haven’t seen a direction I’m in love with.

And I know about ranger woes as well. My mains are guardian and ranger with mesmer being main material recently even though I kill things slower without perfection from phantasm damage …

blitzkrieg.2451:

rchu.8945:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Lol, shelfing mesmer that quick? If you think those small dmg nerfs were the thing carrying you, you’re better off shelfing it anyway.

Maybe it’s more about the trust in ANet that actually tweak the stuff that are necessary, instead of the ones pointed out in this thread? Did you forget the MtD and Chaotic Dampening nerfs too?

Fair enough, yea anet doesn’t balance the right way. It’s a shame really.

For PVE players trying to keep up with the high builds all over, every little bit we need. Losing some mantra burst PLUS back to the recharge as it was before DOES suck. Will look at it myself tonight to see how much this affects me.

Choppy.4183:

@Loxsus
The comment you quoted is in contradiction to your post. Mesmers can’t be both “perfectly balanced” and need immediate trait fixes along with a “wait and see” for future changes.

@apharma
Fwiw, and probably not much, most people in the warrior subforum generally agree that Rampage should be toned down. It’s relatively simple for a mesmer to kite, but some classes are practically sitting ducks. It’s not an I Win button, but a damage reduction is probably in order.

About the biggest opposition to doing that is from people concerned that Rampage is the only thing keeping warriors relevant in PvP. I have no idea if that’s true or not.

I’ve not noticed anyone who mains another class come into the warrior forum to complain about it, or about warriors being OP in a long time. The calls for Rampage reduction appear to be coming from people who main warriors, and nobody there has said people just need to l2p against it.

Also, burn guards are a problem that, afaik, are supposed to get scaled back. Looks like an oversight on Anets part to me. I don’t think that’s an l2p issue either.

@BileGuyChoppy

Seems to fit pretty well with the tone he was going for so I stand by my post. He’s being purposefully over the top … just like everyone else. It’s all fine dude. If you think any of this matters, you’re out of your kitty kitten mind (self bleeping myself).

Fay.2357:

MrKahwk.9524:

Fay.2357:

And I haven’t gotten a single match with more than 2 mesmers on a team at all.

Hooray, I can give meaningless anecdotal evidence too!

It’s not only ONE experience, everyone can tell you about how mesmer population skyrocketed ever since the last patch. I find it funny how people always try to find any kind of’’evidence’’ to disprove a fact. Fact is; mesmer is overpowered. And if you say otherwise you are probably maining mesmer yourself and don’t want to leave the OP train or you don’t play pvp at all.

Ooh, I can play the ‘say unsubstantiated things and call them fact’ game too!

Fact is, Mesmer is perfectly balanced right now. And if you say otherwise, you’re probably just getting killed all the time and are coming to the forums to whine instead of l2p.

This guy gets it!

Facts about what most people agree need to be fixed have been thrown around already. That doesn’t matter anymore. Now it’s just anger and bile and whining left.

BD needs to be fixed, sure. CS and the Pledge could use some looking at. That’s where anymore mesmer nerfs need to stop until they see how that levels everything else. If more is needed, we can see.

Played some more spvp as my mesmer. Still losing fights as much as I’m winning (had a run for awhile where it was more T_T ).

If this class is face roll easy, I either lack a face or I haven’t perfected my “roll” yet. Still deciding. Tried the mantra build and I’m just unable to peel away from some classes enough. All those instant/OP ways I have to disengage seem … less OP? Do better in PU but I’m nothing more than a thief at that point, harassing for some burst and using stealth as a defensive skill since otherwise I’d die instantly (and I still do sometimes).

I logged over to my ranger and guardian (the ones I play more of in all game forms). Night and day, man. I even have the reveal on my one shout to keep mesmers or thieves from spamming on my ranger while my guardian has great survivability tools and burst.

I don’t even use the torch trait on my mesmer so maybe that is a good place to start as far as tweaking. Also the daze to stun people have talked about lightly.

But most of the crap I’ve reading? Nerfing PU or every other trait the mesmers got? You people need to go back to Salem with those witch hunts.

But what if you take the phantasms damage and cut it by, let’s say, half. Now, put that missing damage into your normal clones. Make them actually HIT for a little something. So having 2 clones and a phantasm up would be like having 1 and a half phantasms. Phantasms come with the benefit of some great utility skill so their still good but basically make phantasms AND clones do the same damage.

We have access to clone making stuff more readily then phantasms so now, for PVE or pvp or whatever, shattering is still fine because you can get back up there fast enough. As far as burst, take away like 20% if needed and put it into the core autoattacks to increase sustained (also helped by clone damage mattering) while decreasing the burst as bad as it is. Might have to buff up auto attack a bit more since in bosses, you’d want at LEAST 2 phantasms going to be comparable to others while this scribble idea has only 1.5 that amount but its just an idea.

Mantra of Pain works great for now to assist, I agree.

As was pointed out in another forum concerning elementalists auto attacks, even when a mesmer specs for damage, our damage comes from burst. Otherwise we’re somewhat relying on phantasms to help a bit.

So this is probably a very unpopular decision but I’m going to lay it out anyway;

The reason the BASE damage (ignoring burst from F1 right now) is so low as a mesmer is because the devs have to balance phantasm damage. It’s basically the same with Ranger damage except our base feels lower until we get at least 2 phantasms out.

So what if the phantasms stopped doing big damage? What if they stay somewhat utility in some manner and the damage be given either 1) To the mesmer or 2) to your clones. Instead of clones slightly dinking you, maybe they’re minor but higher in damage.

This would help the damage situation in PVE most but I can imagine elsewhere. Then some of the burst damage from F1 can be toned down if its given in some way back to the base. Bursting is still possible after getting an opponent down a bit further.

Now I mostly PVE as the title says but given the way WvW works, your phantasms aren’t doing jack in a zerg anyway.

I just think Devs have to try and balance our damage too much off magical christmas land where phantasms and going full blast and this would ALSO give people to use the Mesmer mechanics more often like they stated they wanted since we’re not saccing the damage by doing it.

Just some thoughts and curious how badly people WANT to hang onto their phantasm damage over turning them into utility like the ones on our utilities.

I know that the whole “Mesmers can faceroll and win anyway” is definitely blown out of proportion. I mostly PVE as mine but I dabble in some spvp. I die ALL THE TIME. Even on 1v1s; notably versus guardians and elementalists. Tried the powerblock build and the stealthing build. Using stealth most since I’m bad and stealth really only seems to be super useful for people like me. I did the same on a thief to disengage when learning to play; stealth a lot.

So no; I think ALL DAMAGE is nuts right now but if this is rectified with built in extra toughness or something then I think it’s manageable.

Also, I soloed a few mesmers as my Ranger which I play more of in sPvP. I run ranger runes with soldiers trinket for a mix and between the Reveal I can put down, the greatsword blocks/swoop/3rd attack evade/longbow knockback/longbow stealth, I do ok.

As an aside, I never got anywhere close to ever taking down an elementalist and my win against thieves wasn’t great either on my mesmer. Most were stalemates of stealth play so I don’t see the complaint if both can do it. Unless the complaint is “stealth is annoying” in which case “Yes, it’s always been annoying and always will be”

ronpierce.2760:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

ronpierce.2760:

Coolster.2536:

I’m kind of sad that Rev got weapon swap, but maybe its better that way

That’s kind of how I feel. At least this way the class can feel more well-rounded and make sense with the bi-focus nature of the class.

I will say, however, there’s a lack of a ranged Condition weapon, which makes me kind of sad. Would love a Condition-based Longbow. (Not based on fire and not quite as hybridy as Warrior Longbow)

I third that feeling as well.

Another idea for condi range could be Dagger. If hammer can do it, why not dagger, right?

I don’t really care where it comes from. I just love the idea of how Revenant would look/act with a longbow. :P

They haven’t revealed the elite spec’s weapon yet, have they?

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Exciton.8942:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

• *It is too good at everything ~ The Mantra Mesmer can literally fit any conquest job role and do it just as well or better than other classes.

I don’t want to go deep into your flawed arguments. Just tell me why teams don’t go for 5 mesmers in a tournament despite the fact you do see teams go for multiple of certain other professions.

If you truly believe what you said. Please go for such a team and achieve respectable success. I would be amazed to see that happen.

At least I have an argument
You my friend, are just trolling

But funny you mention it… I was considering running our team with 5 Mantra Mesmers in aspectGG’s tournament on the 18th.

It’s not a troll. It’s a valid question; If Mesmer’s are capable of doing everything better than everyone else, why not just all mesmer team? What is trollish about this?

Where is the PROOF of all these accusations?

Valid points are; BD should not hit through dodge and maybe some ICD on the daze>stun trait.

I don’t even hate some of the ideas of moving some of the burst damage down to core damage and softening the damage up a bit. Just so long as they don’t get rid of the burst with nothing in its place as SOME of us do PVE as well.

Really it feels like they need to increase how durable everyone is. This fixes some of the PVP problems while also not affecting much in PVE (as that stuff hits harder than most players anyway)

Necrotize.2974:

Firelysm.4967:

I’ll simply put it this way, why does ranger pet reveals you if they hit, and you don’t get revealed when illusions hit you? That is just not justified. First step would be, removing stealth from all classes that are not thief OR Trapper runes. Mesmer should get mirror/mimic mechanics where they simply swap between clones, and ofc illusions are not killable only shatter-able. Amen.

Yeah…no. Rangers pets do not reveal the ranger if they are stealthed and I don’t think they ever have, so no idea where you got that little gem. It doesn’t work that way with any summon as far as I know.

Thanks dude. Saved me from having to check. Never thought so either.

Firelysm.4967:

I’ll simply put it this way, why does ranger pet reveals you if they hit, and you don’t get revealed when illusions hit you? That is just not justified. First step would be, removing stealth from all classes that are not thief OR Trapper runes. Mesmer should get mirror/mimic mechanics where they simply swap between clones, and ofc illusions are not killable only shatter-able. Amen.

… I need to login to my ranger to check but I don’t think your pet DOES reveal you? I’m not 100% on this but when I get a chance (unless someone else can) I’ll check.

Firelysm.4967:

To me mesmer stealth should be completely removed from the game, and mesmers should get mechanics to mimic between clones (and ofc make clones undead) so they can jump between them, mesmers should be mirror masters, illusionists and not outdone thiefs… Both PU and Shatter mesmers are out of place, and should have removed stealth and implemented different mechanics that would involve playstyle that requires position as every other class. Mesmers have basically no need to position unless you got for that 100 ranger spike, and that’s about it, they don’t even have to face in any direction. So basically mesmers need this, because currently they have to easy job with all this stealth. The only class with stealth should be THIEF or class that uses Runes of Trapper/or if they create some stealth rune in future. No other class not even ranger or engie or mesmer shouldn’t be justified for stealth.

Thankfully you don’t design this game.

Even thematically speaking, the master of ILLUSION has every right to cast invisibility type spells.

It’s been said before but I’m saying it again in hopes maybe SOMEONE will think about this who is raging about OP mesmers; If mesmers get everything with no downside and are entirely OP, why aren’t more of them showing up in sPVP tournies? Why isn’t it nothing BUT mesmers?

Tissitra.4153:

Loxsus.3841:

Tissitra.4153:

’We’re in danger!’ This is quite an understatement. Honestly don’t understand how anyone who cares about the profession does not see how broken it is since the update.

Confounding suggestion: either 50% chance instead of 100%, 10sec ICD or move to GM
Power block 10sec higher cooldown instead of 15, damage shave
Roll back the 15% default phantasm damage
Blinding dissipation either an ICD or move to GM (and it should of course be dodgeable/blockable)
Master fencer add ICD. Which profession gets essentially perma fury from a minor (so basically for free)?
PU I thinkg glaringly obvious

Even if and when ALL of the above is implemented, mesmers would still be much better off than prior to the changes.

The all mesmer group hurt this person. They must be stopped before they strike again!

I main a mesmer…

It’s ok. You’re still allowed to be wrong

Tissitra.4153:

’We’re in danger!’ This is quite an understatement. Honestly don’t understand how anyone who cares about the profession does not see how broken it is since the update.

Confounding suggestion: either 50% chance instead of 100%, 10sec ICD or move to GM
Power block 10sec higher cooldown instead of 15, damage shave
Roll back the 15% default phantasm damage
Blinding dissipation either an ICD or move to GM (and it should of course be dodgeable/blockable)
Master fencer add ICD. Which profession gets essentially perma fury from a minor (so basically for free)?
PU I thinkg glaringly obvious

Even if and when ALL of the above is implemented, mesmers would still be much better off than prior to the changes.

The all mesmer group hurt this person. They must be stopped before they strike again!

Necrotize.2974:

5 mesmer team must be so godmode that not even the servers can handle it and that’s why we never see one.

Duh I just realized, they’re actually already WINNING. They’re just all in perma stealth so you don’t NOTICE they’re winning every game.

apharma.3741:

Loxsus.3841:

EDIT – More seriously, yes, the blind should be able to be dodged/evaded.

Was about to say that lol.

Lettuce.2945:

I like how whenever someone suggests a nerf to blinding dissipation, most people ignore it and dance around it. Guess we can tell the real and honest mesmers from the fake ones who want to defend their class. Because top 3 things right now that need to be nerfed is easily blinding dissipation, PU, and mind wrack dmg.

Funny how when mesmers explain how to kill mesmers on other classes, explain how the burst works and everything they are ignored too.

Just as it’s funny how I still haven’t seen a single ESL weekly with more than 1 mesmer per team and only heard of a troll one from I think oRNG with 3. Just as it’s funny how the mesmers in said matches aren’t “wrecking everything” with their “broken” class.

I too find this HILARIOUS! I have to assume by reading these forums that the ESL people haven’t figured out a team of 5 mesmers is godmode. Silly stupid professionals …

Lettuce.2945:

I like how whenever someone suggests a nerf to blinding dissipation, most people ignore it and dance around it. Guess we can tell the real and honest mesmers from the fake ones who want to defend their class. Because top 3 things right now that need to be nerfed is easily blinding dissipation, PU, and mind wrack dmg.

No they don’t.

See, I can do it too. Isn’t this constructive?

EDIT – More seriously, yes, the blind should be able to be dodged/evaded.

ASP.8093:

Loxsus.3841:

5s of uptime for our ELITE slot at that.

As far as I’m concerned, elite skills in GW2 are just a way to force everyone to take one kind-of-long-cooldown utility from a particular subset.

In my experience, vanilla Mass Invis is more versatile than Moa or Time Warp and just as potent in a lot of circumstances. Pretty good for a skill with half the cooldown.

The other elites could use to have their cooldowns reduced a bit for the mesmers. I think timewarp could be on a similar cooldown. Moa has a passive now which isn’t the worst while the active is pretty backbreaking.

tobascodagama.2961:

ASP.8093:

5-second Mass Invis is plenty of time to res someone, reposition your whole team, or pull off a pretty decisive ambush.

It was my hands-down favorite before the PU change and it’s still my hands-down favorite even though I’m not running PU now.

Yeah, exactly. 5s is plenty of Stealth uptime, and 7s would be a noticeable improvement without being over the top.

5s of uptime for our ELITE slot at that. And then getting it doubled requires going down a line and picking that as our grandmaster. If its a problem in WvW, then maybe reducing the targets would be more reasonable. Otherwise I still see the trait as fine and glad anet hasn’t knee jerked it into the ground.

MidoriMarch.8067:

I play PU condi mesmer is pvp/wvw.
and it is extemely op and more strong stealth than thief.
difrerent between thief and mesmer stealth = mesmer can instant stealth and stealth duration also stacks whicb means i can stay stealth whenever i want faster and stay almost forever. But as a thief we need to either land that cnd or hs bp combo to get in stealth. (ofc we can instant stealth too but which means we have to sacrifice our long cd UTILITY SKILL which is used for escape/life saver utility.) And basically do not forget mesmer gets clones+stealth with lot of boons and lot more hp+defensive skills and btw stealth is basically thief’s mechanic not mesmer’s. Mesmer’s more like clone phantasm type of mechanic. Giving mesmer better stealth than thief is just not right.

… you do realize MI is a long cooldown utility skill … right? O_o

Mostly just a bunch of bug fixes this patch. Woot! We’re still good

Choppy.4183:

apharma.3741:

Stealth needs a viable counter, a way to reveal someone who is in stealth

Is that clear enough for you? The problem isn’t stealth, the problem is the lack of a real counter which any decent game puts in. Seriously, think of all the good games with stealth in, they always have a way to unstealth people.

Nerfing PU back to pre patch will only nerf Mesmer escapes to the point they will no longer be able to escape without using MI in WvW. In PvP it’ll just make people run inspiration or illusions line for power shatters as the boons are terrible, removing yet more build diversity.

Mesmers already have more escape/disengage than many other classes without PU, possibly including warrior at this point (I’ve been running gs/s+sh, bulls, full cd reduction, and warriors sprint and I can barely escape from mesmers running Blink and Traveller’s runes, and that’s the fastest comp a warrior has).

Despite that, I’m not calling for thief stealth nerfs. Sure, they have some deadly burst from stealth, but it seems to be less of a problem.

Even still, your argument to leave PU as it is would only hold up if most mesmers were traiting it. If they don’t trait it, they aren’t getting the benefit, and evidently they aren’t finding the thief threat sufficient to meet that threat.

If you want stealth completely overhauled, fine, but you aren’t making much of an argument in support of the PU stealth buff. The issue of “build diversity” isn’t solved by keeping a stealth buff on a trait that apparently most mesmers aren’t taking now, and a buff they apparently don’t need anyway.

So just because most don’t need it means it shouldn’t exist in buffed form? That’s silly. There’s a lot of abilities that got buffed so if a class isn’t really using it, revert it? The problem, as has been said a few times, is not stealth. It’s lack of stealth counterplay. If everyone had some access to reveal, this wouldn’t be nearly an issue. The length wouldn’t mean near as much anymore since you can see them.

You give more access to reveal and it doesn’t affect PVE usage (limited as it might be, but still there) while also encouraging counterplay. But instead of looking for these solutions, it’s the desire to push it back down.

I understand this entire thing is meaningless. Us debating it means next to nothing. Neither side is moving really. All I can hope is that A-net leaves the skill mostly alone (tapping it by a second or two wouldn’t hurt much I’m sure) and looks at ways to fix stealth as a skill. If that patch is today then we’ll see which way A-net is leaning.

Aomine.5012:

Loxsus.3841:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Loxsus.3841:

Sunflowers.1729:

Choppy.4183:

A weird argument is emerging that basically says,

1. Long stealth doesn’t help you in PvP
2. The stealth buff doesn’t matter in zergs
3. 1v1 and small scale Wvw don’t matter
4. (Therefore) the stealth shouldn’t be reduced

If the long stealth doesn’t matter in some areas in the game, that isn’t a reason to keep it, it’s a reason to take those areas out of consideration because they’ll be fine either way. It matters in some areas of the game, and reducing the stealth addresses that while keeping mesmers viable and not impacting other areas of the game.

Well…

There’s also the argument that “Thieves have been able to do this since forever, so why is everyone fine with them doing it but not Mesmers?”

That’s basically it, yes.

It’s cheesy, like you said previously, but this is NOT new. What’s new is that mesmers can do it now and not just thieves and that’s WEIRD (for some reason). The duration is fine. The buffs it give are fine.

What needs to change, as has also been said, are there needs to be more ways to REVEAL a target. The length of stealth isn’t the problem it’s the lack of counter play which has been echoed a lot by a few people. But if they nerf PU’s duration they should be fair and gut the thief while they’re at it.

I can also think its fair that casting a phantasm SHOULD count as revealed … unless it misses like the thief blind thing.

It’s also kittening false that “everyone was fine with them (thieves) doing it”. Tons of ppl were definitely NOT fine with it at all. I sure never was and I still am not. Now, it’s no longer just thieves but kittening Mesmers too with all the consequences that goes along.

That thief argument is pure BS squared.

Let me rephrase then; unless stealth itself is re-evaluated, it would be complete BS and hypocrisy if thieves are left untouched but PU is nerfed in duration. Or BS squared.

But let me be clear that I don’t think we’re too far off from one another. The whole “thief resetting a fight and you should feel like you won if they left” argument has been a bit sour to me as well for awhile. I just want fairness. If they don’t see it’s a problem for a thief then it shouldn’t be for a mesmer.

Maybe have certain weapon skills APPLY the revealed status so if you hit with one, it tags them. There are a number of possibilities and I’d like to think A-NET would look at some but their record doesn’t show much faith on the matter.

Stop playing with words.

Currently PU power spec is 10 times harder to deal with than the current SA thief.
Period. There’s no comparison, not even close.

Thief is so easy to kill compare to Mesmer, Period. They don’t get invulnerable, evade (if they play perma-stealth, they have to go D/P, so no evade), their stealth time shorter, they can’t harm you when in stealth compare to mesmer, they don’t have easy access to reflection, their blind will cause them to sacrifice dps, their burst is easier to counter.
All they can do now is to land that first back-stab, if they fail they’re usually busted. This does not apply to Mesmer, since they have so many tools to cover their mistakes.

Also Mesmer’s stealth apply to more targets and bigger radius, that a small team of 5~10 can easily abuse PU and easily kill anyone in WvW with no consequences. of being chased or being tracked.

This is my experience against Mesmer and Thief. Period.

I can’t play with words but you can abuse them? Silly forums …

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Loxsus.3841:

Sunflowers.1729:

Choppy.4183:

A weird argument is emerging that basically says,

1. Long stealth doesn’t help you in PvP
2. The stealth buff doesn’t matter in zergs
3. 1v1 and small scale Wvw don’t matter
4. (Therefore) the stealth shouldn’t be reduced

If the long stealth doesn’t matter in some areas in the game, that isn’t a reason to keep it, it’s a reason to take those areas out of consideration because they’ll be fine either way. It matters in some areas of the game, and reducing the stealth addresses that while keeping mesmers viable and not impacting other areas of the game.

Well…

There’s also the argument that “Thieves have been able to do this since forever, so why is everyone fine with them doing it but not Mesmers?”

That’s basically it, yes.

It’s cheesy, like you said previously, but this is NOT new. What’s new is that mesmers can do it now and not just thieves and that’s WEIRD (for some reason). The duration is fine. The buffs it give are fine.

What needs to change, as has also been said, are there needs to be more ways to REVEAL a target. The length of stealth isn’t the problem it’s the lack of counter play which has been echoed a lot by a few people. But if they nerf PU’s duration they should be fair and gut the thief while they’re at it.

I can also think its fair that casting a phantasm SHOULD count as revealed … unless it misses like the thief blind thing.

It’s also kittening false that “everyone was fine with them (thieves) doing it”. Tons of ppl were definitely NOT fine with it at all. I sure never was and I still am not. Now, it’s no longer just thieves but kittening Mesmers too with all the consequences that goes along.

That thief argument is pure BS squared.

Let me rephrase then; unless stealth itself is re-evaluated, it would be complete BS and hypocrisy if thieves are left untouched but PU is nerfed in duration. Or BS squared.

But let me be clear that I don’t think we’re too far off from one another. The whole “thief resetting a fight and you should feel like you won if they left” argument has been a bit sour to me as well for awhile. I just want fairness. If they don’t see it’s a problem for a thief then it shouldn’t be for a mesmer.

Maybe have certain weapon skills APPLY the revealed status so if you hit with one, it tags them. There are a number of possibilities and I’d like to think A-NET would look at some but their record doesn’t show much faith on the matter.

Sunflowers.1729:

Choppy.4183:

A weird argument is emerging that basically says,

1. Long stealth doesn’t help you in PvP
2. The stealth buff doesn’t matter in zergs
3. 1v1 and small scale Wvw don’t matter
4. (Therefore) the stealth shouldn’t be reduced

If the long stealth doesn’t matter in some areas in the game, that isn’t a reason to keep it, it’s a reason to take those areas out of consideration because they’ll be fine either way. It matters in some areas of the game, and reducing the stealth addresses that while keeping mesmers viable and not impacting other areas of the game.

Well…

There’s also the argument that “Thieves have been able to do this since forever, so why is everyone fine with them doing it but not Mesmers?”

That’s basically it, yes.

It’s cheesy, like you said previously, but this is NOT new. What’s new is that mesmers can do it now and not just thieves and that’s WEIRD (for some reason). The duration is fine. The buffs it give are fine.

What needs to change, as has also been said, are there needs to be more ways to REVEAL a target. The length of stealth isn’t the problem it’s the lack of counter play which has been echoed a lot by a few people. But if they nerf PU’s duration they should be fair and gut the thief while they’re at it.

I can also think its fair that casting a phantasm SHOULD count as revealed … unless it misses like the thief blind thing.

Ragnarox.9601:

So wheres necro and mesmer nerfs too?

You’re joking about the mesmer nerfs, right? Cause out of all three mini patches that hit, each one had a mesmer nerf …

EDIT: And also, it’s a bug fix, not a nerf.

As someone else mentioned, PU is fine. If there is an issue, I agree it’s with stealth in general and that Thieves should be along for the ride if crap starts to fly.

apharma.3741:

A thief will do the same to you, only difference is a good one you won’t even see coming.

Don’t forget a Thief doesn’t have to blow their utilities/elite to do this either …

TyPin.9860:

Vieux P.1238:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

after contradicting yourself on the other thread, why am i not even surprise.

Except, there wasn’t a contradiction. Also, nice try to troll. You are now sidetracking a discussion into another thread, where it is harder for people to actually follow what happened. But well, that’s what trolls do.

kylwilson.9137:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

“Emotional garbage”, that’s rich.

Can we be objective when it comes to a profession that has no cool-down on their most potent weapons skills?

Yeah, and initiative is eternal in any given situation… This is becoming beyond ridiculous.

I think most people agree; this is beyond ridiculous. What people don’t agree on is what side of the fence that ridiculous falls on.

Maybe A-Net will knee jerk reaction to things again but hopefully now they’re winding down to look at numbers and data presented to them. Not a lot has been provided by players so all of this argument back and forth about what’s OP and what’s not?

Borderline useless. It’s used for venting frustrations and how people “perceive” things to be. The general consensus is that damage is high all over the place and we’ll see where that settles down. People will keep posting though to vent which is fine but if we keep sniping each other and talking down to one another that their somehow beneath us for having a different opinion in a video game where you can shoot unicorns out of a bow, it just makes everyone involved look silly.

… hindsight I wish we got shortbow as a mesmer. That would have been awesome with Dreamer.

Vieux P.1238:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

I’m not even surprised.

Heh, that was kind of funny. Nothing to add, just making a note.

Carry on