Guild Wars 2

Sir Vincent III.1286:

In PvP, there’s so much protection for someone dropping below 50% (i.e. Valorous Defense, Defy Pain) that makes Executioner not very appealing to take. Not only it does nothing above 50%, at below 50%, defense mechanism can trigger that the 20% bonus damage is nullified anyway.

In PvE, the only practical use of Executioner is against boss mobs with high max HP. Other mobs die quickly even without it. Even then, I think, Improv is way better in any situation.

Lol, Aegis and Defy Pain are hardly preventing the damage off of executioner since it’s a baseline 20% damage increase below 50% hp. On the contrary, that’s what makes it so powerful.

As a Thief you should be kiting defy pain regardless, and soon as it drops, unloading on the Warrior.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Improvisation

Improvisation is a random skill group. Executioner is more reliable IMO. Improvisation could recharge a group you don’t even use, or it could recharge something useful.

IMO I’d rather have a baseline damage increase 50%> hp, over a skill based on a dice roll.

Do what I do. Ignore them instantly and don’t even respond. If you let them get to you, you have already let them win. Obviously if they do this toxic behavior to you, they do it on a regular basis, and probably a good portion of the server already has them on ignore.

It’s one thing to be average or below average, it’s another for someone to rub it in like a 4 year old over the internet, and focus on the problem, not the solution. If you are actually below average, even if they are correct there is no reason to act this way.

Negative Nancys usually have nothing else going in their life other than the satisfaction they get over insults over the intarwebz, which is quite sad. If they cannot focus on the solution, and insist on childish insults based on a fixable problem that they themselves could contribute to fixing, simply ignore and move on.

You cannot expect someone to get better at PvP by not playing PvP at their current skill level. It’s how progression works.

Great tips. I went through the same on Thief. I am still nowhere near top notch, but am much better through practice, and I’ve been doing lots of it. I’ve had to research a lot of the tips and tricks. Try using google/youtube to look for Druid PvP tips and tricks videos. I am sure there’s some. There’s a lot of very good players with very good intel.

Alrighty, thanks. I just leveled artificer in case you said that, lol.

What do you think would be the optimal choices for weapon order for ascended weapons for the Thief for PvE? I’ve mostly been grinding HoT but want to prepare for raids. I want a flexible selection of weaponry for basically any scenario.

I find myself leaning toward 2x Pistol, then Staff, and Shortbow last. Is this a good order to make them?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6ch3ot/qt_updated_benchmarks_for_all_classes_may_16_2017/

Benchmarks are your friend.

miriforst.1290:

Martym.6971:

Vagrant.7206:

TexZero.7910:

Engineer has problems but turrets aren’t it.

The real problem engineer has is the fact that kits are better in every situation because they are the generalist tool for the generalist class.

This.

We’re still severely hamstrung by kits. Our core weapons are underwhelming without assistance from kits (protip to ANet: Reverse the trend, and buff the hell out of our core weapons and reduce kit effectiveness). This limits our builds massively (practically requiring kits), making them significantly more complicated and less fun.

Last time I checked p/p kit engi is one of the highest dps specs in the game if played properly.

Don’t mistake benchmark tests for reality. Watch those benchmark tests and tell me you can reproduce them in a real gameplay scenario.

The other thing I would point out is to not miss the forest for the trees. Most other classes have options with build design on the high end (particularly warriors), while we’re mostly limited to 2 builds in high-end PvE and 1 build in PvP.

Well if benchmark isn’t reality, then this applies to all classes. And Engineer would still be one of the top dps.

That’s not what i think he means though.

Take class A with 5% more dps than class B in static large target benchmark.

Class A depends on a 20 skill rotation with situational combos, narrow persistent aoes with long cooldowns and few stunbreaks/blocks and little mobility

Class B depends on a autoattack chain with a heavy hit every now and then and got higher mobility and more blocks/stunbreaks than class A.

Against a target that moves around, spawns aoes you need to get in/out off and with large attacks that can be blocked it is very much possible for class B to realistically and reliably be ahead of class B because there is only so much you are loosing out if you miss an auto attack, while the target might just waltz out of a key aoe of A.

The more complex and situational the bigger the difference between benchmark and actual result as a rule.

Sorry but you miscount skillfloor.

Classes have MAX dps as well as dps.

Easier classes can achieve max dps easier.

Meaning the skillfloors are lower.

MEaning the max dps for Engi is higher.

The average dps for Engi is higher per skill floor.

The average dps for most classes with lower skill floor is lower.

The average dps for classes with higher skill floor and higher skill floor dps is higher.

Meaning auto attack classes who can only auto attack and do “X” damage every “X” seconds based on skill is lower, if the auto attack damage per second is lower.

Meaning the skill floor for Engi being a class which is dependant on rotation for high skill floor for high dps, is very high, and the max dps for the skill floor is high, and the max dps for the average player is low.

So an average player with an average rotation with Engi is low dps.

SO an above average Engi player with an above average DPS rotation is equal to the average DPS of the classes with the lower skill floor who auto attack.

So the Engi with the superb dps rotation has much more wiggle room for higher DPS than the classes that can only achieve limited max results with their auto attack.

Meaning the average Engi = below average dps.

The above average Engi = slightly above average dps (compared to max auto attack specs)

The great rotation spec Engi = above all specs.

Sorry you cannot “group” players into classes. Many players are above average. Which is slightly above the average of average auto attackers.

But the auto attackers with cooldowns have a maximum dps which limits them.

Engineers are also limited but these limitations are harder to hit, meaning Engi’s can get to higher dps, albeit harder. Even-so harder doesn’t mean impossible. Many people grind the rotations and a majority of the playerbase can reach the “above average” meta for Raids and fractals. IF they do not, it’s a kick. SO they must or be replaced. It isn’t hard to reach this.

It can be challenging and time consuming but nowhere near impossible, and achievable by the average player.

Vagrant.7206:

TexZero.7910:

Engineer has problems but turrets aren’t it.

The real problem engineer has is the fact that kits are better in every situation because they are the generalist tool for the generalist class.

This.

We’re still severely hamstrung by kits. Our core weapons are underwhelming without assistance from kits (protip to ANet: Reverse the trend, and buff the hell out of our core weapons and reduce kit effectiveness). This limits our builds massively (practically requiring kits), making them significantly more complicated and less fun.

Last time I checked p/p kit engi is one of the highest dps specs in the game if played properly.

Don’t mistake benchmark tests for reality. Watch those benchmark tests and tell me you can reproduce them in a real gameplay scenario.

The other thing I would point out is to not miss the forest for the trees. Most other classes have options with build design on the high end (particularly warriors), while we’re mostly limited to 2 builds in high-end PvE and 1 build in PvP.

Well if benchmark isn’t reality, then this applies to all classes. And Engineer would still be one of the top dps.

I could understand that Choppy. But Thieves are supposed to be dirty scoundrels. And you cannot balance a class around getting away without a kill.

Choppy explain to me how me making a statement which people have support in here is undermining any credibility, when no one has given an answer to the statement? Who cares who said it. No one will give an answer. You have no credibility if you cannot provide answers.

All you have done since the beginning Choppy is move the goal post around over and over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

“Moving the goalposts, similar to “shifting sands” and also known as raising the bar, is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt.³ The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the end result is changed, too"

DeceiverX.8361:

Martym.6971:

Fighting on nodes is of no consequence to Thieves with access to stealth.

You literally just lost all credibility here with this sentence.

I don’t even need to re-defend my stance; your blatant lack of understanding of the profession speaks volumes.

I am sorry you cannot understand context of discussion like your friend here. Sure there’s disadvantages to Thief, but Thief has ways to work around them. You’re just as bad as your butt buddy here. Thief can milk stealth on nodes to be of less consequence to their class as simply dying like other classes must do. Maybe you guys are bronze league.

Choppy.4183:

@Martym.6971

Lol, k. Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me. The rest of us know otherwise.

The rest of all 3 of you. Lol k? You’re all intellectual children with an IQ of 10 who cannot understand conversations, overexaggerate statements made in conversartions to mean something they never meant, then run off without defending the page of garbage and lies you spew. You’ve still lost all credibility, and you have yet to defend a word you have stated, explain your bull hockey on page 1, or establish a means of evidence for your claims. Oh but you will try to figure a way to lie and manipulate your way out of this one as well amirite?

JusticeRetroHunter.7684:

Martym.6971:

…I stated only for Thief and the nature of the class is why this is the only class designed for 1v1s…
You have already lost all credibility long ago, so I am not speaking to you further.

To be honest, you had no credibility from the start, by saying thief was designed to 1v1 any class…

@ your bottom paragraph, I literally stated this in my response. Wasting time? This is subjective if the opponent also wasted the same time to defend the node not capped. Sure you would be a moron to go around 1v1ing capped nodes, but giving up uncapped nodes? That just speaks volumes for your skill level and expertise as a Thief.

Other classes can disengage, that’s fair. But the argument is about Thief, and not all classes run away without even engaging. You’re trying to establish equality in your argument on disengaging, then also establish equality in class balance based on this fallacy, when the classes are nothing alike, and are balanced differently.

You all have stated the same thing over and over again, Thief was not designed around 1v1, then given no proof otherwise. If it is how Choppy stated, and Thieves were designed around Conquest, and everything else is a fallout of it, then explain to me why he considers them sub par in Conquest. The sole thing being nodes?

Well if Thieves were designed around the ability to acquire nodes with mobility, then why are their skillset for 1v1s? Why are they according to Choppy, balanced for Conquest and suck in Conquest? You have yet to explain this. As HitIer says in Mein Kampf, “Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth”, which is exactly what you are doing making claims without proof, when Thief being the best 1v1 class is my proof.

This company may have intended balance for all classes in Conquest in the beginning, but all classes are not designed to be balanced around Conquest after they have tinkered with them. So if Thieves are sub par in Conquest, then why are people screaming for nerfs if Thief is sub par at the only method that this company balanced around? There’s so many flaws and circular logic on all of your statements it baffles me that you actually believe what you type.

Choppy.4183:

Martym.6971:

You have much subjective argument without factual evidence to support your claims. I have made no claims other than the obvious class mechanics which is common knowledge and is widely regarded as fact. The only one with “claims” here is you.

I’ve raised issue with claims that you made, and I’ve included quotes those claims as evidence that you made them. You’ve also acknowledged that you made them in subsequent posts.

It’s your claims that a warrior, dh, and other classes are auto pilot (as in, DeceiverX level of play) at level 80, and that thief is only equivalent to that after somewhere between some undefined number of hours and thousands of hours of time playing thief, that are being discussed.

Again, the thing about forums is there’s a record of what people have said and haven’t said. Your most recent post seems bizarrely oblivious to that.

No, I didn’t, I said class vs class skill cap that I stated was slightly overexaggerated but they were fair comparisons. I am sorry you cannot understand context. Your most recent posts contradict themselves over and over again, make false claims about what others have stated, and over exaggerate the context of discussions. Do you have an anti social disorder? Your social skills lack, and you have yet to provide any evidence to any claim you have made, but move the goal post when called out on your failures to invent false accusations.

Anything I have stated I have rightly admitted and explained context. You have only lied to further your argument. This can easily be read by any child on the bottom half of page 1. See, like you stated, you can always read post history. It’s a wonderful thing. And when called out on your lies, you move the goal post and try to invent new ones, or repeat the same lies in different context, like you are trying to pull a fast one over someone. Well that may work on your mother, but it doesn’t me.

You have already lost all credibility long ago, so I am not speaking to you further.

zinkz.7045:

Martym.6971:

Thieves are fine in e-sports. Fighting on nodes is of no consequence to Thieves with access to stealth. You can still milk CDs on nodes. The only difference is when you get the kill, it’s a game changer. And when you do, if you see the other team coming to the node to support the dead teammate, you can back-cap and hop 1/2 way across the map in no time.

Erm, I know thieves are fine in “e-sports” they are however not a good 1v1 class in it as you claimed, so I have no idea what you are babbling on about.

And as for fighting on points and access to stealth, what are you on about, that is one of the reasons thief in PvP isn’t good for 1v1 in stealth builds.

Martym.6971:

There are still skill cap levels easily seen by how difficult certain classes are vs others.

No class in this game is difficult to play, and they all got even more faceroll with HoT.

Martym.6971:

Nothing is balanced around 1v1? Thieves are. All stealth classes are balanced around being the superior 1v1 class. This is the only class balanced for 1v1 superiority. Explain to me why they can counter any class in 1v1 then?

There is no 1v1 balancing, because there is no 1v1 game mode, they balanced for 5v5 conquest (of which there is very little 1v1 even in that), then when PvE raids came out they balanced for 10 man raids.

The state of any 1v1 is simply the fallout of them balancing for conquest/raids, and again for the most part thief has not been a 1v1 class in PvP, because it simply isn’t that good at them in that context of fighting over points, it is only good in WvW but again like pretty much every other class in WvW the “balance” is merely what ever mess is left after they take descions for PvP and since HoT, PvE raids, your notion that they consider roaming in WvW when it comes to balance is laughable.

Martym.6971:

If they balanced Thieves around e-sports, they would have to lose what makes them great in 1v1 and back capping, and gain somewhere else.

For the most part over this game thieves backcap and +1 in “e-sports”, they don’t 1v1, and frankly 1v1 is not a common thing in PvP anyway for any class, you are meant to rotate…

Show me where I said Thieves 1v1 in e-sports. I don’t see it, yet here you are claiming I did. I said in PvP and WvW Thieves goals are to back cap and +1. Man you need to learn to read. Everything I have stated about Thieves are 1v1 related as far as balance goes, not the state of Conquest.

No class is difficult to play? Is that a blanket statement stating that all classes are as easy and have the exact skill cap as others? Because this is factually false.

I stated only for Thief and the nature of the class is why this is the only class designed for 1v1s. I find it funny how you consider it “laughable” yet your very argument does nothing but prove me correct.

Because if Thief was only designed to run away from everything and teleport around as a balancing tool for conquest, then what a crap class it would be, and no one would play it. This is simply not true.

And in many situations you are forced into 1v1 with Thief. If you go 2v2 on a node, and your teammate dies as well as theirs. If you honestly think everytime a Thief sees another class in Conquest on a node, and they simply run away from them every single time, I’d like to know what game you play.

Thieves do not just hand over nodes just because it’s a 1v1. The sheer ridiculousness of this claim is absurd. Thieves go for a kill always, and if they fight a losing battle, they retreat if they know they cannot win the 1v1. They do not blindly just leave the node on auto pilot just because “oh noes 1v1 must run”.

zinkz.7045:

Martym.6971:

So you are trying to push an argument forward they balanced for “e-sports”

Their is no argument that is simply fact, the combat/skills in this game were designed around PvP and what Teldo & Co wanted, go ask a player in Alpha (or go find Sacrx’s video on it), or go find the old streams that Jon Peters, etc (if they still exist?) did earlier in the game explaining the balance changes they made, virtually everything was in relation to PvP conquest.

Martym.6971:

maybe you play o and wish to also make an argument for how they never balanced for 1v1 or WvW, yet you want Thief balanced around one or the other?

I don’t “want” anything, WvW is a dying game mode, and 5 years in is little late to start balancing thief or anything else, I’m just pointing out that the idea that thief or any other class is designed or balanced with WvW in mind in any meaningful sense is nonsense.

Martym.6971:

I hate to break the news to you, but in MMOs, stealth classes are designed to be balanced around 1v1 combat and to be the superior 1v1 class, only achievable at higher skill caps. This is how they balanced Thief for “e-sports”. The e-sports as seen in tourneys Thieves goals is to +1 fights and back cap, just like WvW.

LOL, thief is a crappy class at 1v1 in “e-sports” because it takes too long to kill most other classes 1v1, you have to fight over a capture point and that combined with the score ticking away punishes a class like thief for resetting like thief can in WvW to eventually win a 1v1, which is exactly why it is a +1 class not a 1v1 class.

Martym.6971:

Also for your “claims” about “skill”, go back to WoW if you want macros, and add-ons to do all your work for you. Because GW2 has none of this nonsense and they are limited to 1 keystroke 1 action besides WoW being able to macro the whole class and auto targeting via keybinds with CC and cross DPS built into the same macro.

I hate to break it to you, but in the grand scheme of what is skilled in video games MMORPGs are regarded as a joke, go see CS, SC2, etc for games that have high skill caps.

The combat in GW2 is a joke, it is full of passives, the game aims for you (tab targeted), there is barely any resource management, it is not particularly fast paced (even by the low standards of MMORPGs), there is very little animation or skill cancelling needed, the cooldowns are generally shortish so easy to manage and so on.

The only thing in this game that moves the skill cap out of the gutter is teams playing PvP and have to split their concentration whilst fighting and making decisions on things like rotations, keeping up map awareness, etc, the actual combat is well…

Thieves are fine in e-sports. Fighting on nodes is of no consequence to Thieves with access to stealth. You can still milk CDs on nodes. The only difference is when you get the kill, it’s a game changer. And when you do, if you see the other team coming to the node to support the dead teammate, you can back-cap and hop 1/2 way across the map in no time.

Hate to break it to me? Tell me something I do not know. This game is easier than those other games. But I am speaking in the sense of this game. There are still skill cap levels easily seen by how difficult certain classes are vs others.

Nothing is balanced around 1v1? Thieves are. All stealth classes are balanced around being the superior 1v1 class. This is the only class balanced for 1v1 superiority. Explain to me why they can counter any class in 1v1 then?

But according to you in e-sports, Thieves suck? Obviously your argument is counter productive. Because if the premier stealth class sucks in e-sports according to you, and excels in 1v1, they must have balanced Thieves around their strengths in 1v1, and not their weaknesses in e-sports.

If they balanced Thieves around e-sports, they would have to lose what makes them great in 1v1 and back capping, and gain somewhere else.

zinkz.7045:

Martym.6971:

This is by sheer design due to their inability to battle zergs but only in Shortbow.

There is no ‘design’ in regard to WvW, the classes were designed and balanced around “e-sports” in this game, WvW (and PvE at that time) was barely considered.

So thief being surplus to requirements in zergs is no more relevant than engy, ranger, etc also being surplus to requirements, how a class performs in zergs has never been a consideration, which goes for WvW fullstop, which is why so much in that game mode is a broken imbalanced, unskilled joke and as much as guards have been an irreplaceable broken OP class for large scale, equally thief has been just as broken ez-mode for small scale, because they simply have never considered WvW in any meaningful way when it comes to class design/balance.

Oh and as for the “skill-cap” of combat in this game, newsflash the combat in this game is relatively low skilled and designed for casual/bad players to give the feeling of action combat without having to do anything difficult like aim, meaningfully manage resources, require any real mechanical ability or twitch, etc.

So you are trying to push an argument forward they balanced for “e-sports”, and wish to also make an argument for how they never balanced for 1v1 or WvW, yet you want Thief balanced around one or the other?

I hate to break the news to you, but in MMOs, stealth classes are designed to be balanced around 1v1 combat and to be the superior 1v1 class, only achievable at higher skill caps. This is how they balanced Thief for “e-sports”. The e-sports as seen in tourneys Thieves goals is to +1 fights and back cap, just like WvW.

So this claim is completely false. Also for your “claims” about “skill”, go back to WoW if you want macros, and add-ons to do all your work for you. Because GW2 has none of this nonsense and they are limited to 1 keystroke 1 action besides WoW being able to macro the whole class and auto targeting via keybinds with CC and cross DPS built into the same macro.

Choppy.4183:

Martym.6971:

It doesn’t matter who I responded to, that is what I quoted and replied to. And that was a comparison I did make, you are correct. And for the most part it’s correct. It’s very slightly overexaggerated but nonetheless it’s a fair comparison in time investment to skill cap. Warriors are a much simpler class with a lower skill cap, so now are you arguing against that?

I would ask as to why you’re asking me questions about newly leveled Warriors and DH and my ability to kill them when I stated Thieves overtake them? You’re trying to invent some fake argument based on something I never pushed, and you’re moving the goal post.

Matter of fact I said the opposite, that Warriors do die when you graduate from new Thief to experienced. Thief is a 1v1 class, it was made to 1v1 all classes. And if a Thief is at a level of play that is above average, they will most certainly kill every other class. This is by sheer design due to their inability to battle zergs but only in Shortbow.

I am trying to understand what exactly you are trying to argue here. About misplay vs consequence tuning? I hardly see an issue here either. Sure Thieves can get away anytime they wish, but if a Thief misplays and runs, you should also create distance besides give chase to refresh your own cooldowns.

You cannot expect to balance a game around 1v1s. So you’re telling me what I was arguing now? Please tell me how Thief is on auto-pilot for everyone. It’s simply not true.

Again, it’s grossly exaggerated. As noted previously, warrior does indeed have a lower skill floor than thief. But anyone operating at the skill floor of either profession will get crushed by even an average player, so it’s fairly irrelevant at this stage in the game.

And, as others and I have said, thief doesn’t have a particularly high skill floor anymore either. It’s got plenty of cover for mistakes, and it doesn’t take that long to learn how to use them either. But at no point have I said that thief is autopilot, that’s something DeceiverX said for him (after thousands of hours) and something you said is possible for other classes at level 80.

Finally, do note that three other people called you out on your claims, so it’s not as though it’s just me. At least two of them (maybe three) are thief mains too.

You have much subjective argument without factual evidence to support your claims. I have made no claims other than the obvious class mechanics which is common knowledge and is widely regarded as fact. The only one with “claims” here is you.

Choppy.4183:

Martym.6971:

I never argued equivalence. I said YOU achieved. I didn’t say everyone. Nice strawman though. For future reference, try reading my post thoroughly.

You stated the game is on auto-pilot for you after thousands of hours. The quote that I quoted had absolutely no mention of anything BUT auto-pilot from you. I never argued equivalence after 1000’s of hours. Matter of fact I argued AGAINST it.

I stated that Thieves overtook Warriors in the very post you quoted after time investment. Perception is not your strong suit, and making strawmans based on factually made-up and invented nonsense seems to be your strong suit.

Yeah, see, the cool thing about forums is you can go back and refer to what people actually said.

First of all, you were talking to DeceiverX, not me. Second, if you want to go back to the original claim then you’re saying newly levelled warriors, DHs, etc. are like running autopilot, because, that’s the bit you responded to in DeceiverX’s post. It’s not the number of hours that’s the equivalence you were arguing, it’s the substance of both being in a state of autopilot.

Do you… have that much trouble killing newly levelled warriors and DHs?

Martym.6971:

DeceiverX.8361:

Several thousand hours of core D/D power and Daredevil almost puts the game on autopilot for me, frankly. It’s incredibly spammy. I don’t even find it fun.

Maybe better now with the cut endurance gain access from sigils and base from Daredevil, but comparatively speaking, unless comparing to pre-nerf ghost thief, the spec allows for massive misplays to not be immediately punishable by death and allows for a lot of minor misplays with relative impunity of facing those consequences.

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

It doesn’t matter who I responded to, that is what I quoted and replied to. And that was a comparison I did make, you are correct. And for the most part it’s correct. It’s very slightly overexaggerated but nonetheless it’s a fair comparison in time investment to skill cap. Warriors are a much simpler class with a lower skill cap, so now are you arguing against that?

I would ask as to why you’re asking me questions about newly leveled Warriors and DH and my ability to kill them when I stated Thieves overtake them? You’re trying to invent some fake argument based on something I never pushed, and you’re moving the goal post.

Matter of fact I said the opposite, that Warriors do die when you graduate from new Thief to experienced. Thief is a 1v1 class, it was made to 1v1 all classes. And if a Thief is at a level of play that is above average, they will most certainly kill every other class. This is by sheer design due to their inability to battle zergs but only in Shortbow.

I am trying to understand what exactly you are trying to argue here. About misplay vs consequence tuning? I hardly see an issue here either. Sure Thieves can get away anytime they wish, but if a Thief misplays and runs, you should also create distance besides give chase to refresh your own cooldowns.

You cannot expect to balance a game around 1v1s. So you’re telling me what I was arguing now? Please tell me how Thief is on auto-pilot for everyone. It’s simply not true.

Choppy.4183:

Martym.6971:

My argument was for time investment vs skill cap. None of what you said is relevant to this. New 80 Thieves vs new 80 Warriors of equal time investment,Warriors win hands down.

When you start to exponentially invest more time into the Thief class, and learn the mechanics behind it, you can begin to start owning Warriors. You cannot honestly believe what you type.

Your whole argument is about Thief should be nerfed because you must invest exponentially more time into this class, to reap the same rewards other classes have when they get 80 on the get-go. It makes no sense. The Thief class is balanced around high skill cap and being able to 1v1 when you invest this time to reach it.

If you have some valid argument that suggests Thieves are God-tier off the get-go, and can easily pwn scrubs as soon as they get to 80 with sub par skill, let’s hear it. I know for a fact you have no such argument.

On the contrary, you argued equivalence between a thief with thousands of hours of experience and a warrior, dh, and “other classes”.

Martym.6971:

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve.

Now you’re changing your argument, but still exaggerating your case. Sure, it’s got a lower skill floor than warrior and dh, but let’s be honest, someone at either class’ skill floor is going to ground up into a fine paste in pvp and wvw, unless they’re up against similarly green players.

It doesn’t take that much time fighting to understand the basic toolkit a thief has had its disposal to counter other classes. It doesn’t mean it’s always easy, but it’s never been easier to play a thief than it is now,. The class is much more forgiving to new players than it used to be.

Nice try with that strawman argument though. 8/10 for that one.

I never argued equivalence. I said YOU achieved. I didn’t say everyone. Nice strawman though. For future reference, try reading my post thoroughly.

You stated the game is on auto-pilot for you after thousands of hours. The quote that I quoted had absolutely no mention of anything BUT auto-pilot from you. I never argued equivalence after 1000’s of hours. Matter of fact I argued AGAINST it.

I stated that Thieves overtook Warriors in the very post you quoted after time investment. Perception is not your strong suit, and making strawmans based on factually made-up and invented nonsense seems to be your strong suit.

Choppy.4183:

Martym.6971:

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

Surely the disparity of skill vs time investment vs skill cap time investment is completely balanced in your eyes and warrants more nerfs to Thief, to make it tens of thousands of hours before they can play on the same playing field as other classes. /sarcasm

Man, if you’re not able to eat new level 80 warriors for breakfast as a thief with even a few hundred hours of experience, you’ve got serious l2p issues. I assume that’s the same with the other classes you mentioned, as well.

Honestly, and especially if we’re talking 1v1 or small scale, you’ve got all the tools you need to manhandle warriors with less (and often more) experience than you.

Larger scale combat, or on a point, no, but anything else? C’mon bra.

My argument was for time investment vs skill cap. None of what you said is relevant to this. New 80 Thieves vs new 80 Warriors of equal time investment,Warriors win hands down.

When you start to exponentially invest more time into the Thief class, and learn the mechanics behind it, you can begin to start owning Warriors. You cannot honestly believe what you type.

Your whole argument is about Thief should be nerfed because you must invest exponentially more time into this class, to reap the same rewards other classes have when they get 80 on the get-go. It makes no sense. The Thief class is balanced around high skill cap and being able to 1v1 when you invest this time to reach it.

If you have some valid argument that suggests Thieves are God-tier off the get-go, and can easily pwn scrubs as soon as they get to 80 with sub par skill, let’s hear it. I know for a fact you have no such argument.

DeceiverX.8361:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

DeceiverX.8361:

Daredevil is really forgiving relative to core.
Condi in general is really forgiving.

So you can see where this is going.

Until they round out most of the elite specs and not make them overpowered, everyone’s gonna be salty. But this is extremely unlikely because it would require major overhauls and ANet doesn’t do those.

A slight correction for you btw Choppy; the old Nike warrior actually had higher landspeed than the thief unless the thief ran an entire build of gap-closers and initiative restores (really bad for anything but strictly moving around, unlike Nike Warrior having some potency from Strength/Defense traitlines), at the cost of no vertical mobility. Depending on what environment you were in, this was a back-and-forth between the two. Obviously it now favors Daredevil in all environments.

Daredevil is a bit more forgiving relative to core.

Fixed it for ya

Wouldn’t go as far as to say “really” forgiving but due ot the extra dodge (with effects) does make it a bit forgiving.

To a new thief, maybe.

Several thousand hours of core D/D power and Daredevil almost puts the game on autopilot for me, frankly. It’s incredibly spammy. I don’t even find it fun.

Maybe better now with the cut endurance gain access from sigils and base from Daredevil, but comparatively speaking, unless comparing to pre-nerf ghost thief, the spec allows for massive misplays to not be immediately punishable by death and allows for a lot of minor misplays with relative impunity of facing those consequences.

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

Surely the disparity of skill vs time investment vs skill cap time investment is completely balanced in your eyes and warrants more nerfs to Thief, to make it tens of thousands of hours before they can play on the same playing field as other classes. /sarcasm

Acandis.3250:

For those of you unfamiliar with these clowns:

• idk.7156 is Nos’s alt account
• Beast.6745 is Toker’s alt account

Both Legend players, though, admittedly, we all play like bronzes, sometimes.

Clearly a troll post.

How do we know this? What if you’re the troll who is inventing the troll post to troll the ones who are bronze and trolling, even tho the bronze doesn’t know he is trolling and is in fact trolling himself, which makes it look like he’s the troller you say is trolling on troll accounts?

I didn’t read through the replies, so it could have already been addressed by someone else. But I think the people crying about Thief are either angry they cannot kill a highly mobile class. (running away is basically a kill, if you’re not helping your team by avoiding death)

Thieves hit and run tactics with access to ranged to supplement this. A good Thief can counter any class. But this cannot be done by the average Thief, it requires you to match low skill cap classes with a max skill capped Thief. So basically they are angry that a class is much harder to play and much more dangerous, but more rewarding if done correctly.

I honestly do not understand the hate. Thief was designed great in my eyes. This is the nature of the beast of stealth classes, always being squishy, dies easily when in the hands of low skill, and is the ultimate 1v1 class in the hands of someone who can play the class perfectly.

If you take away Thieves 1v1 power, you remove all reason to even play Thief. Because the only way to achieve this power in 1v1s is to be an exceptional player and melee in a squishy class. Many classes designed around the condi meta are uncounterable because the only way to counter them is via cleanses, which are limited, and condis can be spammed by low skill players for high reward.

The low to medium tier condi classes look like the exceptional tier Thieves in PvP because of this, which is honestly why I think it is a little unfair that you have to be so good at Thief just to be on an even playing field with other classes.

Pyriall.1683:

Sly.9518:

Pyriall.1683:

Cynz.9437:

Aenaos.8160:

Was that on the table?

OP wants traitline about mobility not have anything to do with mobility.

OP wants an icd on an ability that is another, among many, overly bloated abilities for thief. Spamming dodges to break immobilizes when thieves multiple means to do so is unhealthy for balanced gameplay.

OP doesn’t realize the last 2 balance patches have seen nerfs to Thieves Evades and Endurance regeneration.

It’s funny the complaints are coming from someone that plays a class with on demand access to Resistance Spam which negates all movement impairing effects.

What’s funny is I play every single profession in this game, more than most of you. When classes that have a minimal way of gaining distance from a thief and he just random kittenollolol dodges out of it, you’ll begin to recognize the broken nature of dash. I can be objective in my criticism of abilities.

Also, I don’t know where you’re getting that I play something with on demand resistance spam as my profession.

Maybe that’s your problem. Jack of all trades, master of none. This is the biggest issue with GW2. Altoholics who “pretend” to know everything.

I’d love to see esport implemented here. But with the way the game is designed, there would obviously be an imbalanced meta. But that could work for the games overall balance, and actually show the glaring issues, making them more obvious to the devs, which would in turn make class balance a more easily seen and fixed problem…hopefully.

Krathalos.3461:

Thieves Guild, Dagger Storm, and Basilisk Venom are all good in different situations.

Thieves Guild is good in small skirmishes, like 5v5 or so. It’s also great in PvE.

Basilisk Venom is great 1v1, and synergizes really well with Backstab builds.

Dagger Storm is only good in huge zergs for the AoE. If you’re using it 1v1 for anything other than the projectile reflection, you’re basically asking to die. I swear people don’t realize it reflects projectiles. I can just jump into a zerg, use Dagger Storm, and laugh when everyone just tries to kill me with range.

I tend to use shadow signet soon as I jump in a zerg, then use Dagger Storm, you can prolong it that way an extra second.

shalmont.2539:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Gee Warriors still hit 25k with a single ability but our ability that did 6k dmg got nerfed yet again….

and our only partially viable elite got nerfed to total uselessness..

Umm PLEASE tell me what ability that is….. full out specced into dmg/pwr the highest i have ever crit for with HB was 13.5k and that was on another glass cannon, also the build was just for testing the dmg, it is in no way viable for real tournament play….. so yeah stop screaming for nerfs, that is exactly what got your class nerfed.

Warriors dmg is nuts, but I have to disagree with B Venom being the only viable elite.

Dagger Storm = amazing.

bwillb.2165:

Anyone that’s had a chance to test so far: If you have devourer venom and pistol whip stun on you and then use a stun break, does it break both of them in one fell swoop?

D Venom is an immobolize not a stun, to prevent a dodge, which is useless unless in a 1v1 scenario.

WereDragon.6083:

Martym.6971:

You cannot haste and chain pistol whips.

If the opponent of the Thief spams dodge, there’s like a .5 second gap where you can dodge a Pistol Whip, even with haste on.

Regardless, I don’t care, I don’t use the useless skill, even more useless now.

And any pistol whip thief worth his salt is using devourer venom to hold you in place so you CAN’T dodge away.

If a Thief is using D Venom, they are sacrificing a lot of survivability for a useless venom to get a garunteed kill on one person vs surviving multiple targets.

The scenario is haste right? What does he have to survive? Shadow Refuge D venom and haste? Thats a garbage combo especially in WvW.

You cannot haste and chain pistol whips.

If the opponent of the Thief spams dodge, there’s like a .5 second gap where you can dodge a Pistol Whip, even with haste on.

Regardless, I don’t care, I don’t use the useless skill, even more useless now.

I use neither so no nerfs for me!

Dagger Storm > all elite skills.

And Pistol Whip already sucked before the nerf anyways.

“Yeah, lets use a skill that roots us in place for 2 seconds and is easily dodgable.”

I’ll keep owning on my D/P backstab build with Dagger Storm :-)

@ Brogarn – You listed a combat log of him performing a steal > double strike> CnD > then the buzz of the lightning strike.

That is 3 globals you had time to react, which is 3 seconds not including time you prep for the incoming BEFORE he jumps on you.

You absolutely had plenty of time to react, and thank you for proving my point of bad players will always whine.

That’s all I needed to see, was that combat log, then Brogarn saying he “didn’t have time to react”, which is obviously a joke.

I’m back to the game, have a great day.

No nerf is incoming. You are all whining about haste basilisk and steal which are all on ludacrisly long cooldowns, and can be used only once per encounter.

And on top of that, there would be no reason to play a Thief if you take away their burst, because that is all they bring to the table, if they have no burst, they become underpowered and are already extremely ludacrisly squishy.

A thief kills 1 person quick that is bad and doesnt dodge or kite. I don’t understand how people can be so bad? I mean, I have fought every class, and the better players can get it right, and time dodges negating my opener, and kite my steal.

But you always have the majority, which happens to be the less skilled population, the bads, whine and want nerfs to offset their lack of skill, when in fact, the class is already working as intended and balanced.

And the devs better realize this, because here is the fork in the road that makes or breaks MMOs, when they introduce that first big class balance patch. They better think hard of the consequences, or they will label themselves as “just another MMO company that listens to the less skilled population and imbalances classes”.

More people saying something doesnt = correct. And you cannot balance a game around the less skilled players. You balance on what can happen, within reason. And the funny thing, is this game doesn’t take much to be skilled.

This games hotbar system is ridiculously small. You only have a few LIMITED skills you can use. At max, what? 10 hotkeys? And you can’t get it right? Many other MMOs I have used over 30 hotkeys.

No way to prevent something that instagibs you? Making it NOTinstagib you? You know, smart dodging?

Stealth only lasts for an extremely short period of time, that can be kited/dodged, and RNGed with extreme ease.

No nerf bat will come, keep telling yourself that. And the only person that will be crying is you, because you cannot understand a simple mechanics that completely negates Thief openers, and that mechanic is called double tap dodge.

There’s always something you can do to avoid an opener, dodge twice.

Stealth is a very short duration ability. All the bads need to realize, when the Thief goes stealth, he’s still suceptible to snare/root and kiting, and you heros all for some reason, want to run IN the direction of the Thief, and die besides AWAY and kite the stealth, they pop out with no damage done.

If you time it right, even if they are glass cannon spec, steal misses when you dodge and they are out of stealth.

There is absolutely no way people are “dying with no way to counter” Thieves, absolutely no way, simply due to Thief design, no perma stealth, no stuns longer than .5 second.

Seriously learn to play.

Paw, you are hilarious.

15 free kills? Are you joking? Thief does not have perma stealth. If anyone LOOKS at a glass cannon Thief, they die. This is a HUGE L2P issue, and your QQ about a Thief really shows how poor of a player you are.

There is absolutely no way a Thief is “garunteed” a kill. We have no stuns worth a hoot. While a Thief is setting up, you are doing what?

When a Thief is going into stealth what are you doing? Sitting there waiting for him to open on you? Not abusing LoS?

You don’t have to “see” something, to know what it is about to do, and counter dodge twice, or simply kite the stealth.

Melee range is one of the easiest things to counter in any MMO, if we aren’t in melee range, we aren’t doing damage.

It seems every ranged classes problems, is getting too close to a class, and realizing “owait I am dead, because I didn’t realize that was a Thief”. The first thing you should be looking at, when you encounter someone, is their class icon. But there is absolutely no way you are doing that with the way you are trying to prove somehow a Thief is garaunteed a kill every 1 minute.

Saying that, alone is not including the possibilities of the Thief dying and sitting in the GY, move time between nodes. The 1v3 scenarios where the Thief is simply outnumbered but defending nodes.

You are reaching pretty far for a nerf, like seriously, REALLY far.

I can solo champs on my Thief in lower level zones, but I am max level fully geared.

Sbow is crap damage, and with the exotics I have at max level, my sbow aoe 2 shots mobs at that level.

I’ve literally killed 20+ mobs just from bouncing arrows without even kiting.

But the higher level you get to, the more it evens out.

You probably saw an 80 Guardian working on 100% world completion.

I played AoC against addiction, Tyranny server.

Childish guild that griefed, and talked smack nonstop.

Just throwing that out there.

Allthough things could have changed, AoC is very old now, it’s been a few years.

PolleyPocket.9162:

Martym, could u post your build?

using www.guildhead.com skill calc

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#cckzM9rxxa9MmkRMRqV

30 Deadly Arts:

Venomous strength. Procs on each poison apply. Up to 10 stacks of might just from this. for 2x might every proc, since we’re running Deadly arts, deadly arts also applys poison on a steal, so add 2 more stacks of might boon.

Stealing applys poison.

300 power.

3 seconds of weakness.

Improvisation auto recharges random poisons/deception/tricks/signets/traps on a steal.

Quick venoms. 20% faster venom recharge.

Exposed weakness: 10% more damage when target has a condition. Crazy dmg.

30 critical strikes:

5% free crit @ health above 90%

Signets of power, gain 5 stacks of might on activating a sig. Can activate power sig + shadows at same time, which = 10 stacks of might, on top, if you activate poison before, you are also getting 2 stacks of might everytime poison procs. If you use SPider poison that is 5 procs. Which is 10 stacks, and another 10 stacks from 2 sigs. 20 stacks total if used together.

Signet Use. 2 initiative every signet activate. 4 if you use 2.

First Strikes: 10% dmg if initiative is over 6. More burst.

Executioner 20% more dmg if target is under 50% health.

10 Shadow Arts:

Blind / stealth if you drop below 25% health.

Infusion of Shadow. Works on field states. If you utilize dagger/pistol as I do, you black powder / auto attack / auto attack / heartseeker.

Heartseeker gives stealth if within the field of black powder.. Which activates infusion of shadow and gives you 2 initiative.

Protip.

Deadly arts is not bad.

Build around poison and duration. Ridiculous damage. The damage is crazy.

30 Deadly Arts. Yes power adds crap tons of damage. 30 into Crit strikes.

You can magnify that damage with 2 might every poison proc. And Crit trait that gives 5 might on activating a signet. You can also get 20% faster signet charge from it, and also run 2 signets. Shadows and power sigs, Bam 10 stacks of might AND 150% dmg on next attack, use a poison first.

I don’t understand why people hate deadly arts? It rocks. You can also get 20% faster poison cds, and much more added on with power.

Power stacks with might, so, if you get might from deadly arts, you are getting more power from each stack.

Use infusion of shadow go 10 into shadow arts with 30 Deadly arts and 30 crit strike.

Run dagger/pistol in PvE and PvP. You can tank and offset the squishyness.

Use black powder, auto attack, auto attack, heartseeker. Being in the smoke field of black powder, you gain stealth for 3 seconds when you heartseeker, and if you keep black powder in melee range of your target, you can infinite dodge and heartseeker gain auto stealth, then do it again.

You need shadow refuge to abuse this more.

Any poison works, look over the poison traits in deadly arts, they rock, and not many people utilize the power/might boon gains off it.

I’ve hit well over 3.6k power, absolute ridiculous damage. Use perception sigil on bow swap, get 25 stacks, use food and acc sigil on offhand and fire on mainhand, grats you have well over 70% crit with crit traits, and proc crazy dmg every 5-7 seconds on your crits.

This is the extreme of extreme of glass cannon builds, able to make even guardians go “wtf?”.

Nothing comes even close to the burst of this.

Thadren Calder.1397:

Ya that seems to be the problem i’m having. Everyone has an opinion, even what i have to say is just an opinion. Most of what i hear and read makes sense. Should duel wielders take advantage of 2 runes? There are good arguments for yes and no. Some sorta stack some don’t, and since sigil of accuracy doesn’t show up in the hero panel no one has a definitive answer. Personally i think either they do stack but don’t get the full bonus (7% instead of 10%) or they need 2 to get the full effect to balance out with 2 handers (need 2 to get the 5% when dual wielding) I guess we’ll never know for sure until an official post or the stat boosts show up in the hero panel.

An option I wouldn’t mind, especially if they aren’t letting sigils stack and want people to use different sigils would be to give 2 handers 2 slots for sigils.

Well everything I have stated is all heresay…maybe they intentionally did it like that because any class dual wielding, they already balanced for it.

Or it could be an oversight. I’d like an answer also.

Well, I just went by what I have been hearing from multiple people, and formulated/brainstormed on it. That is the best of what I can come up with, and it explains everything, if it’s true.

We already know how on proc buffs work, can only have one. So it would make the most sense to me, since pretty much the same applies to on proc damage being limited by internal cooldown every 5 seconds, sense comes in here, that also applies to “raw stats”.

Also the only answer I can come up with to your question about 2h vs dual wield sigils, is, if I go by the above said, then it’s something they have overloooked, because we know for a fact you can use 2 different ones.

Not going to happen anytime soon, but they will probably either do one of 2 things:

1) nerf sigils on dual wielding professions.

or

2) Implement 2h specific sigils.

Thadren Calder.1397:

I know sigils that proc don’t stack, but ive never gotten a diffinitive answer of these types. Did my own testing and with the 5% dmg sigil i noticed a difference when having 2 since 5% is easy to see when your testing with numbers 10k+.

Either way, even if i only have 85% crit chance there is no way i’d ever get hidden killer over executioner

Edit: From GW2 Wiki page regarding sigils. It looks like they may stack afterall.

Sigils that hold a charge per kill cannot be stacked (i.e. +5 power per kill and +5 condition damage per kill) one or the other shows up. This applies even if you swap weapons. For example if you had two different “On kill stacking stat bonuses” sigils on two different weapons, only the sigil of the weapon you make a kill with first will take effect. If you swap weapons and make a kill, the sigil from the second weapon will not take effect.

Charging and non charging sigils can be stacked.

Sigils that trigger on critical hits can trigger on any critical hits; the critical does not need to be scored with the associated weapon’s skills (e.g. a character with an offhand weapon imbued with a Sigil of Rage can still gain quickness when critting with their first three skills)

Sigils that have a chance to trigger on critical hits stack their chance percentages multiplicatively, not additively (e.g. two major sigils of fire – 20% chance on crit each – give a 24% chance on crit, not 40%).

Sigils that trigger on critical hits will not trigger on critical hits caused by mesmer illusions (this is to be confirmed with other summons).

If you have a main hand and offhand weapon equipped and have a “On kill stacking stat bonuses” sigil on only one of the weapons, you will only see a partial benefit from the sigil. If you have the same sigil applied to both the main hand and offhand weapon you will see the full benefit.

It doesn’t work like that with the Sigils of Accuracy. Sigils have to be different to work, only one takes effect if they are the same dual wielding. Sigils is in its own “category”. Also the sigil “category” has “subcategories”.

There’s the “on proc” buff subcategory which shares its on internal cooldown, and there can only be one in effect with BUFFS “on proc.”

Then there’s “on proc” damage. They share the same internal cooldown dual wielding.

Then there’s the raw “stats” subcategory. You may have 2 different “raw stats” in effect dual wielding, like 5% damage and 5% crit, but not the same.

The reason this is, is because it would semi-gi-mp 2 handed wielding classes because Sigils are so powerful. ie Greatsword/Longbow

Thadren Calder.1397:

58% base, 63% with food, 75% with max stacks of Sigil of Perception on my bow (very easy to get max stacks in a few min in WvW) 80% with keen observer. Switch back to dual wield daggers each with Sigils of Accuracy for 90%. 97% with side strike.

I thought you couldn’t stack Sigils of Accuracy.

Someone explained to me, the sigil with the highest stat is the one that takes the cake, and if both are the same, only 1 takes it.

Never tested it yet, didn’t want to drop the money in it.

MightyMoe.4237:

Trungalung.7850, gabo.6721, thanks for quick response, pals!

But there’s one more thing i really would like to know. How fast my endurance will grow? For example: I have 0 endurance and gain 1s of vigor. And what my situation will be after 1s?

It’s ballpark, 10 endurance per second, give or take a hair.

So imagine double that. With enough crit, it makes for some pretty absurd dodge streaks.

No one……..?

Never really used xmute stones, so I don’t know how they work.

But my question is, say, if I get Incinerator, I dislike the stats on it, and would like power precision and crit damage to be on it, can I xmute an exotic with the same stat table as the Legendary to get Incinerator with power precision crit damage?

I use both on and off to switch it up.

I may be squishier in Zerkers, but I can seriously dish out some pain, and I find the skillcap in Zerkers to be higher, because it’s less forgiving.

Toughness works well, i just take quite a huge loss in DPS, it doesn’t really feel right to me, considering the very definition of Thief is burst, and not tank.

To each their own.

You told him how to beat a DB spamming Thief with no skill.

Smart Thieves don’t spam it, open, and use it an random intervals, pretend to be tanky thief and catch them off guard.

<3 Technobabble, seriously OP used correctly on a Thief.

Make sure if they are cleaning bleeds, they only clean 1 stack of 3, then C&D stealth backstab spam for a short time, then reapply bleeds.

A thief can always C&D spam into a dodge and seriously milk stealth to its fullest with bleeds.

I wouldn’t call death blossom spam any assurance of great skill, but it is rather powerful, and not too powerful for dang sure.

Allthough it’s also very boring.