Guild Wars 2

Hello all! This is just a little information that I feel might be relevant, given the debate regarding Evon vs. Kiel, and the Fall of Abaddon.

Like many, I immediately kitten ed on hearing and thought “Oh, pre-fall? Must be Orr!”, until I did a little research. Abaddon did not fall in Orr; he fell, and was defeated, in the middle of the Elonian desert, out in the middle of nowhere.

Just thought I’d put this up, to help educate those voters and help make the upcoming election as awesome as possible!

Source for lore: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Mouth_of_Torment

Hello! My apologies for any awkwardness, but this is my first time posting in the suggestion board.

However, I could not help but notice a problem with one of the new Norn facial hairs, in that the stubble for darker-haired characters tends to make the new style somewhat ugly. If I may, perhaps there could be an option to remove the stubble, or to otherwise change the dye of it to better hide against paler skin? Thank you for your time, and I have provided an image below to help better encapsulate my issues with the style.

I’m not quite convinced that the halls under Kaineng were out of character, if only because of one thing. Ogden and company being present in all three of them is easily explainable away by the fact that each path is cannon in each story; after all, you can’t go to one, and then go to another and find them again. If you go through one path, then boom, they were in that one path. IF you go to another, then they were there. Something like that.

More to the point, the space argument isn’t really that hard to fathom; they were linked by portals, after all, so they could be the extent of the ruins in that section, and just be linked by portals (as Asura are wont to do). But, I’d be curious to see the Linsey Murdock stuff, since that might completely invalidate my hypothesis.

Also, good catch on Zhu Hanuku, I nearly forgot about him. Wonder if he’s out and about again, with the ‘melting’ of the Jade Sea? Either way.

One thing I think I need to point out though, this is all really kind of speculation on my part. It’s linking out of character narrative cliches with what information and patterns have been provided. I’m perfectly open to the possibility (nay, probability) that I am dead wrong… but I’ve got a bit of a gut feeling on this, if that makes any sense.

But I must admit, very glad to be kind of having this back and forth Konig. Helps to find holes, and then try to patch them up.

To address your points, Konig:

1. Yes. As we know, the Echovald and Jade Sea both have their ‘curses’ lifted with the death of Shiro Tagachi. Considering that process started (and seemed to have noticeable effects) nearly 250 years ago, it seems likely that today it would serve as the new source of Canthan lumber. After all, the Kurzicks aren’t really in a position to protest them logging the forests, and it seems highly unlikely that Emperor Usoku would block off all trade, even with his xenophobia, if it meant that Cantha would basically implode in on itself.

2. A fair point, but consider: They had to be -created-. You don’t find things like Branded Risen, Icebrood Branded, or Risen Destroyers out in the wild, now do you? As to Urgoz, no, he wasn’t corrupted by the Jade Wind (if he was, then he’d be a statue). He was enraged and driven insane by the damage to the forest, but that was an incidental effect to the Jade Wind’s blast, not something that was a direct corruption by it.

3. As the source of Orr’s magic is something that’s left ambiguous, I’d say we leave that for now. There’s evidence going either way, and at this point it’s just us thinking which evidence or hypothesis fits best (which is, in turn, derived from how we view things fitting in the narrative and in the setting).

As to the Jade Wind however, I’d argue that the magic did not come from the five gods, but instead was drawn from whatever lies beneath the Harvest Temple (which, as mentioned, I hypothesize to be Mordramoth). The Gods may have figured out how to use that magic, but I feel it was Mordramoth that was the ultimate source of it. Think of it like… say… a magical battery. Which is what I hypothesize with the Cataclysm, as well. Basically, since Abaddon was chained, he needed to find a source of magic besides himself to power those massive spells. And what better source of magic than beings made up entirely of magic? Which, in turn, explains why those spells only functioned in those two areas, rather than having Khilbron running around sinking continents hither and thither.

3. To address your third point; there is an inconsistency in your objection. First, you point to the source of the Jade Wind as being magic stolen by Shiro from the Emperor. All well and to the good, if we’re talking about the Emperor that was in the middle of a magical ritual in the Harvest Temple.

Doesn’t really make as much sense, however, if he tried to do the same thing without it. Where would he have got that magic from? Master Togo’s bad voice acting? No, no. I theorize that this ‘second Jade Wind’ he was aiming to unleash was nothing of the sort. We don’t really know what happened, or why he turned to jade, hm?

4. The conflict in the Crystal Desert was mentioned as being a three-way battle between Zhaitan’s Risen, Kralkatorrik, and the Elonians. I can try and get you a source, but there are multiple pages on the Wiki that mention it.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragon

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystal_Desert

I’ll try and get more for you when I can find it.

As to the DSD and Zhaitan, you’re right, we don’t know. But it would seem, if there were grand naval battles between Zhaitan and the DSD, there might be some mention of it.

Anyhow, moving on to the other stuff.

And, since I apparently hit the maximum post limit (I didn’t even know that was a thing), this little snippet at the end will just have to go in 2nd:

Oh, and one addition to go on with this theorycrafting. I actually postulate that each of the five playable races has a very good reason for wanting to go to Cantha.

Humans: Well, Canthans in Tyria probably want to go home, and a Canthan expansion will probably have a pre-event of re-building the Canthan district or somesuch.

Asura: The Asura had a portal linking to underground ruins of unknown origin (I would speculate Asuran, or at least a place of Asuran interest, since they already had a functioning gate there). A shaky reason, admittedly, but still a historical connection.

Sylvari: The aforementioned Warden/Urgoz connection seems pretty obvious to me, and it seems like the Sylvari might at least be curious about it. Even if not, they’d probably want to go there just to see, and if there is an Elder Dragon under the Harvest Temple, it would be their duty to do battle with it.

Charr: Probably the weakest of the five, having no previous historical connection. What I could see them going to Cantha for, however, is technology. After all, a group of nomadic pirates 250 years ago managed to build machines that the Charr can’t even top today, not to mention inventing cannons long before the Charr did. Even today, Charr tanks would be dwarfed by the sheer size of the Luxon gigantic mecha-leviathans.

Norn: I would argue that the Norn might see some similarity between the Celestials and their own Spirits; there is certainly enough there that they could build on some sort of connection. Not to mention, Norn would probably go to Cantha just to be able to say they were the first Norn in Cantha, and build their legend. Doesn’t really need more to lure norn somewhere than saying it’ll make you famous.

Well, Konig, I don’t make any claims to it being more of a ‘gut feeling/informed guess’ based on some patterns I’ve observed. But let me attempt to answer the four points that you’ve put up:

1. Well, Shing Jea is mentioned as being particularly bountiful… and the assumption that Cantha must be bountiful is based on simple logic, as I mention above. Look at where we find farmlands in Cantha: Pretty much exclusively on Shing Jea island. Considering that Kaineng City alone is larger than Shing Jea Island, and that having more city than farmland is not really something that you find in an isolated society, it seems logical to conclude that Shing Jea must be particularly bountiful, or just Cantha in general.

After all, consider the size comparison between Divinity’s Reach and the rest of Kryta, which is pretty much farmland (there being no large forests or seas to interrupt agriculture). So that’s what I used to base my assumption on, since a city cannot support itself, and having more city than farmland is not really… possible without something making the farmland extremely productive.

2. To address this, as you say, a lot of what Urgoz and the Wardens are is pretty much little more than in-character supposition that they ‘may’ have been once holy men or humans. There’s no indication that this guess is anywhere close to right.

One other point in favour of the wardens being some sort of elder dragon minion… is that the wardens (and, indeed, Urgoz) were entirely immune to the effects of the Jade Wind. And what just happens to be immune to the effects of Elder Dragon corruption? Dragon minions (and Sylvari).

I’m not saying that he’s evil because of dragons, I’m saying that he -exists- because of dragons. The Elder Dragon of Life (Mordramoth, if I’m spelling that correctly), I believe operates through a different… method, which I shall address below.

3. Again, I think I may have misrepresented myself (a fault on my part, to which I must apologize). I believe it was one of the story quests in Orr that hinted towards a connection between Zhaitan being responsible for at least part of the reason why Orr was such an intrinsically magical land. Magic which, I believe it was hinted, provided something of the ‘source’ for Vizier Khilbron to use the Forbidden Scrolls and sink the nation.

It is this idea of using the Elder Dragons as a sort of ‘magical amplifier/battery’ that I am applying to the rationale of Mordramoth being beneath the Harvest Temple. It was that power that made a (frankly, rather average) assassin able to petrify half a continent. After all, Abaddon was chained, it’s not as if he could whip out a magic nuke whenever he felt like it. There had to be something special about Orr and the Harvest Temple that allowed him to use those super-powered spells there, else he would’ve just had his minions dropping Cataclysms and Jade Winds all over the place.

To go with what you say about it being a festival of the gods… well, that may be what the Canthans -thought- it would be. But the Elder Dragons collect, and consume magic. I believe that, by performing the rituals to their dieties, Mordramoth was claiming that magic for itself; siphoning it off little by little, growing day by day. Hell, even just the act of worship in the area could be enough; we can see how Guardians and Paragons can turn faith into acts of magic. Who’s to say that Elder Dragons only feast on magical artifacts, and not magical energy summoned by others?

That’s where I’m kind of coming from. Could be completely wrong, but it seems like too many pieces match, too many patterns show up, for it to be -complete- coincidence.

Also, one final thing.

To point 4: I concede that one utterly, I’d completely forgotten that the DSD had only awoken 50 years ago. Though I will say that, since we know the Elder Dragons fight each other (Kralky vs. Zhaitan in the Crystal Desert, for example), the fact that Zhaitan’s fleets weren’t being attacked by the DSD makes me believe that… frankly, Bubbles doesn’t really care what’s going on at the surface, at least for the moment. That all could change, certainly, but… he seems more of a sea-floor dwelling type. Consider the races he’s already pushed out, not a lot of them spent time on the surface.

Ah, Konig! I was wondering when you’d post. I need to make this quick, but I’ll try and elaborate further in another post.

However, in terms of the rationale behind going there, it’s fairly simple. I don’t imagine that the Tengu have forgotten, nor forgiven the Canthans for being pushed out of their homelands. Currently they are a neutral party in the war against the Elder Dragons, in a time when we need every warm body that can pick up a sword or till a field. Offering them aid in trying to reclaim their homeland, even if that aid comes in the form of sending random adventurers (us), would be balanced by getting the entire Tengu military, in such an agreement.

As to why the Empire would help us? Well… that’s actually kind of tied to the whole ‘Elder Dragon underneath the harvest temple’ thing. I theorize that the reason Cantha has been so… bountiful, so to speak, so lush and verdant, is that the Elder Dragon of life is underneath it. That its ‘corruption’, so to speak, comes in the form of things like the Echovald forest or the rich farmlands of Shing Jea. Honestly, when you consider the fact that Kaineng City is bigger than the entirety of Shing Jea island, how can they feed themselves considering they can’t import food from Tyria or Elona?

Ultimately, the similarities between Urgoz and the Pale tree are more about superficial and narrative similarities. Even you must see the pattern of a mighty tree-avatar (in this case, the Pale Tree and Urgoz), that constantly creates human-looking sentient minions (in this case, the Sylvari and the Wardens). There are certain patterns, so to speak.

Anyhow, to tie this all back: My guess is that the upper echelons of the Empire of the Dragon, including the Emperor himself, have been (either knowingly or unknowingly) ‘feeding’ the dragon through the yearly rituals at the Harvest temple. It was also this dragon’s power that Shiro tapped in order to create the Jade Wind (similar to how some theorize Vizier Khilbron’s scrolls tapped in to the power of Zhaitan beneath Orr).

Story-wise? We’ll most likely go there, find a more tolerant prince who has been largely ignored or suppressed, and help him in leading a rebellion to restore the Canthan Empire to its glory. In essence, putting a friendly emperor on the throne, who will then promise to allow non-humans back in to Cantha, as well as military aid for the people that so graciously supported his rightful claim.

Oh. And in regards to the Deep Sea Dragon, I don’t really see that as a major impasse to getting to Cantha. After all, it wasn’t Bubbles that cut off all contact with Cantha, it was Zhaitan.

Anyhow, will be back later. Toodles!

I would absolutely love to see Cantha in an expansion (hopefully the first or second), because it really mixed things up in terms of what people saw in MMO’s. I mean, in that one empire alone, there’s history and diversity. Indo-Greek Luxons using gigantic crab-mechas to travel across seas of frozen jade, Gothic Samurai living in a forest of stone and cathedrals, even the Imperials (for lack of a better term describing those humans native to Kaineng and Shing Jea) have a unique and distinct cultural, political, and artistic flair to it.

Moving to theorycrafting, there’s actually even a plausible reason why we might go to Cantha. After all, since Canthan ships have been wrecking along the shores of Tyria ever since Zhaitan came up from the seas, we know that they’re still a naval power. Considering that, for all we know, they’ve been entirely untouched by the Elder Dragons for centuries, it’s entirely possible that the Canthans have the most advanced and largest navy on Tyria.

To go with that, consider that the Canthans had a ‘technological headstart’ on the peoples of Tyria, having been the first to create cannons and harness gunpowder for war, as well as utilizing it in a wide-scale cultural usage. It wouldn’t be too far of a stretch to consider, since they’ve only been completely isolated for about 100 years (again, since the time that Zhaitan rose and blocked all trade), that the Canthans have used that stability and pre-existing knowledge and built upon it.

To the theorycrafting part, my guess is that we’ll most likely try and go to Cantha since the only thing blocking us from reaching there has now ended. Story-wise, I’d suggest that we’ll most likely be joining a Tengu attempt to return home for the promise that they’ll help fight the dragons, as well as looking towards the Empire of the Dragon to help provide in the fight against the various elder dragons. The latter achieved by supporting a non-isolationist claimant to the throne of the Empire of the Dragon.

In pure speculative mode, I’d even go so far as to suppose that the Empire of the Dragon might not be as untouched by the dragons as some might think; it is simply that they have been used in a very different fashion. I’m nursing something of a pet theory regarding the fact that there might be an Elder Dragon underneath the Harvest Temple, one tied with the element or facet of ‘life’ or ‘nature’, and is responsible for the creation of both the Pale Tree and Urgoz. But… that’s pretty much pure speculation based upon inferences at this point, so I’ll not go further. I feel I’ve rambled enough as it is.

Me? I hope he isn’t dead, because ‘killing’ what amounts to a Cthulhu-esque eldritch abomination is about as de-clawing of a setting as you can get. It takes away the dramatic weight of the Elder Dragons by making them things that you can pull the ol’ Indiana Jones maneuver on. Prior to launch, and prior to Orr, Zhaitan was made to be something that made even the Gods tremble in fear, that was poised to end all civilization.

… and then he goes out like a chump, after losing battle after battle, because of the magical plot armour of Professor Trahearne and his plucky sidekick [Insert Player Name Here].

Not to mention, being able to kill the Elder Dragons makes everyone who didn’t pick the Vigil look like absolute idiots. I mean, the Durmand Priory thought that some lost lore would save us all, the Order of Whispers believed that the elder dragons could only be put back to sleep. It was only the meathead Vigilites that said ‘ kitten LETS SHOOT IT OR STAB IT WITH SWORDS’. And having one of the three Orders conclusively right, with none of the other theories having any sort of credence or validity just rubs me the wrong way.

Stupid Vigilites.

To add to Konig’s theory above, I actually share the thought that Rata Sum is an ancient Asuran city. Consider one piece of crucial evidence: Rata Pten, in the Mount Maelstrom area.

The Durmand Priory is investigating these ‘ruins’, which are entirely indistinguishable from Rata Sum’s architecture (and, indeed, ‘modern’ Asuran architecture), and describes them specifically as an ancient Asuran city from the time when Orr was still a functioning society.

To give credence to this theory, there are even Asuran-style golems wandering about the ruins (during a rare event). In fact, if I’m remembering rightly, they might even have been the high-tech holographic golems that you find in Metrica Province… but I can’t remember, it’s been a while.

In addition, in the Straits of Devastation, if you enter the giant cave complex to the east of the southern islands, you can find Asuran structures as well that have clearly been long abandoned.

I think it can only be concluded that, most likely, Rata Sum are ancient Asuran ruins from some long-lost Asuran civilization. My personal theory? It was a group of Asurans that rejected subterranian living and, hence, cut themselves off from the group of Asurans that eventually came to the surface with the rise of the Great Destroyer. Thus, the latter group would have little knowledge (if any) of the goings on of the former in however long of an interim there was between the surface-Asura building their civilization and the rise of the Great Destroyer.

That’s my personal poke at it, however.

I may be in the minority here, but I kind of hope that they bring Abaddon back. Of all of the Six Gods, he struck me as the most interesting; a god of both knowledge and lies, of secrets and yet (paradoxically) of freedom in some respects. In my opinion, Abaddon was justified in his rebellion against the other Five’s impositions…

… which makes me want to explore just who he was before the Five decided to eradicate (as shown by the Forgotten fighting the Margonites) Abaddon’s influence from history, and his followers.

If I were a writer at Anet (oh, how I wish I was!), I would actually make it so that we could find Abaddon where all things that die go to; the Underworld. After all, Grenth overtook Dhuum’s mantle… yet Dhuum both remained in the Underworld, and managed to hold on to a great deal of power. So perhaps Abaddon is simply in the Underworld; relatively powerless, but nonetheless ‘there’.

Or perhaps we can even see a completely powerless Abaddon, since they show that most of the gods were once mortals before their ‘ascension’. Who was the man that became ‘Abaddon’ prior to his rise? What was his story? Those are the questions I’d like to see answered. Who knows, perhaps death has helped to cleanse Abaddon of the insanity that his milennia of chained torment gave to him.

I don’t think we’re done with the God of Secrets just yet. No sirree. Or at least I hope not.

Just to add to this topic somewhat:

The average Asura lives 5-10% longer than your average human, and a Charr’s natural lifespan is a little bit less than a human’s (I think it was mentioned as being 65 or something like that). Sylvari, nobody has any idea what their lifespans are, and Norn are the longest-lived, able to maintain their good health well into their 120’s, maybe longer.

Well, Aneirin, that’s not entirely true; the Mists connect to everything, not just the past. They draw from past, present, and even future… which I think is where the Uncategorized Fractal comes from, since it seems to be a post-apocalyptic Rata Sum. Some minor changes in architecture, sure, but the overall layout is entirely Rata Sum.

In regards to the Mist drawing on all time periods:

“Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past, present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.”

From the Guild Wars Manuscripts. Emphasis mine.

Meh. Comparatively? Asuran tech is fairly stable. I mean, they’ve had working AI’s (or closest to that, even if the intelligence level is somewhere in the range of an ettin) for nearly three centuries.

If I may provide some enlightenment:

The Fractals of the Mists take place inside the Mists themselves, which shows you all that needs to be said about just what they are. The Mists are the proto-reality that links all time and space, the ‘primordial ooze’ that all of existence (as the people of Tyria know it) erupts from. It is, in essence, connected to every single thing in existence simultaneously; time and location have no meaning in terms of the Mists.

What the Mists also does, is not simply provide the building blocks for creation, sending things out… but it also pulls things in, creating replicas of things it encounters in the worlds made up of it. That is what the Fractals are; replicas and duplications of things that have already existed, or possibly will exist, or do exist. We already have one such example already, in the SPVP map ‘The Battle of Khylo’ (the historical Battle of Khylo took place over 300 years ago, during the Guild Wars).

Allow me to provide a quote from Arenanet themselves to clarify:

“The Mists is the oldest thing in existence, constituting the fabric of time and space that connects the multiverse together. The Mists is the proto-reality that exists between the worlds which in turn are the building blocks of reality. The Mists resonate from the worlds around them, forming bits of their own reality – islands of existence that reflect the histories of their worlds. Within the Mists are worlds, each with their own realities and histories, floating as islands in the ether. Some worlds are enormous, such as the Underworld, the home of the dead; others are simply residences for powerful spirits or deities. At the center of the Mists is the Rift, and within the Rift is the Hall of Heroes, the final resting place of powerful and virtuous souls.”

Hopefully that can provide some enlightenment!

Arven Wolfskin. Not bad, though not sure on ‘Arven’. I dunno, just doesn’t sit right; I guess because I mentally read it as someone saying ‘Arwen’ with a stereotypical German accent.

And now, to open myself up to criticism: Thorvald Ironclad.

If I might politely ask, why is ArenaNet insisting on attaching the fix to the Hatchery (a small problem, comparatively speaking) with a content update? It seems as if they could have fixed the issue much easier through the small content patches like they did today regarding the Candy Corn Nodes or the Dye drop rate.

Just strikes me as odd, so some clarification on just why the Hatchery fix couldn’t be separated from a content update which takes much longer (over a month, judging by how long this bug has been in).

As mentioned earlier in the thread, for clarification: No, it wasn’t the Charr’s, originally. They conquered it from the peoples that already existed there (most likely the Grawl and Ogres), and their ‘actual’ homelands were never invaded, save after they had unleashed the Searing.

The More You Know! rainbows

Wow, seems I stepped on a bit of a landmine with you, Olithia, but allow me to dissect your counter-arguments as so and provide my response:

1. The problem with your saying that there has never been a non-‘white’ (I hesitate to use the term, which I shall elaborate on further) Ascalonian is that it would presuppose some radical things that are not supported by the lore. The question is a matter of probability. I have never met, nor never seen, a dark-skinned Irishman before… but that does not preclude the fact that, statistically, there have been and do exist them, even if a miniscule percentage. Just as there are dark-skinned Swedes, dark-skinned Germans, dark-skinned Scots. And this is in our world, which has all of the nationalist and racist discrimination stretching back centuries, both institutional and cultural!

To presuppose that there has never been, or never was, a dark-skinned Ascalonian would require a monumental effort on the part of the Ascalonian people, which is something… that we do not see existing. You see, the crux of the problem is this: There are no ‘races’ in Tyria. Black, white, these terms are entirely meaningless, and have never meant anything to the people of Tyria. The only instance of distinct ‘races’ (in reality, cultural groups, most likely) emerging was in Cantha of all places, with the wars between the Luxons and the Kurzicks, and even those are more national conflicts than racial ones.

In essence, black and white are irrelevant terms in terms of Tyria. What matters, far more importantly, are national identities based upon shared governments and social contracts. Krytans versus Ascalonians, Vabbians versus Istani versus Kournans, Kurzick versus Luxon. It is a definition by culture, not by any sort of misguided adherence to a particular skin colour or facial features. In this, we see that the Elonian identity has still been preserved; their native architecture, their cultural norms, even something so simple as their cuisine.

2. To address your point; consider where the majority of Krytans we encountered lived in Guild Wars 1. The answer? The D’Alessio Seaboard, Lion’s Arch, and the areas to the south of where the Kingdom of Kryta exists today. The ‘whitening’ of Kryta may be due to such simple factors as the majority of the populace killed and/or displaced by the rise of Zhaitan would have been predominantly Krytans, rather than the Ascalonians that settled further to the North. In the wake of such devastation (including their most populace city getting, in essence, decimated), the Ascalonians would have been better equipped to influence Kryta through concentration of intact property and serving as an increased percentage of the remaining population.

3. See point one.

4. Again, the African American parallel is inappropriate for this discussion, because the idea of ‘race’ does not exist in reference to humanity. There is, as mentioned before, no ‘black’ or ‘white’ in Tyria, there is simple humans and their various national or cultural subgroups, none of which having any particular monopoly on a certain look (though there are, of course, majority appearances; yet these appearances do not preclude other appearances from being just as Elonian/Ascalonian/Canthan/etc.).

Again, skin colour and physical appearance has about as much influence in Tyria as what colour your hair is: Next to nothing, if not nothing.

5. Indeed, the refugees arrived 50 years ago (though some NPC’s mention that it was closer to 150 years ago; will provide chat-logs from one of the conversations in DR once I can find the fellow)… yet, we do not know the ‘colour’ of these immigrants. Who’s to say they weren’t predominantly from Vabbi? Or split evenly amongst the paler and the darker Elonians? Again, simply because one comes from Elona does not automatically make them dark-skinned, just as someone coming from Cantha does not automatically make them look a certain way.

In the end, there seems to be something of a disconnect, that ties back to my key point: there are no ‘races’ in Tyria, simply cultural groups and nationalities. Ultimately, every character you see (with the possible exception of Miyani in Lion’s Arch, or Doern Velazquez) is a Krytan. And you see plenty of dark-skinned Krytans and Krytans of Elonian descent.

shrug Again, it seems like imposing out-of-lore ideas on what constitutes race into the game, but that’s just me. Would I like to see more Elonian representation? Sure, why not. I’d also like to see Canthan, Luxon, Kurzick, and Orrian representation as well.

If I may throw my informal hat into this particularly egregious ring, I find one flaw in the logic being applied here.

For one, Guild Wars has never had unique ‘races’. To use what has been bandying about, there have been Krytans that are both dark-skinned and light (Salma and Evennia, to give an example). There have also been Vabbians that have been dark-skinned and light. Istanis, Canthans, et cetera, et cetera. None of these have any sort of mass racial homogeny in terms of such an arbitrary attribute as simple skin colour.

If I may, the uniqueness in culture is not some sort of arbitrary linkage to skin colour. The fact that the average Krytan has grown ‘lighter’ over time does not make them any less Krytan. Would an Ascalonian that got a strong tan be suddenly not an Ascalonian? Would a Kournan who lightened his skin tone through some means no longer be a Kournan? No; it would be an absurdity.

What determines what you’re claiming is not race, or their ‘blackness’, but their heritage; they are people from Elona. Their culture and heritage is shared by people of a nationality, as there are no ‘races’ in terms of GW humanity; only nationalities, which have varying traits and colours to them. We might say that the general majority of X nation has certain traits, but that does not preclude people from having differing traits and still belonging to that same shared culture.

For example, and to possibly take it to RL territory: a man of dark skin tone, of African heritage, born and raised in Europe. Are they any less European for having a different ancestry or appearance? Are their cultural values not those of the average European, rather than someone from his ‘racial group’s’ ancestral home?

This, I feel, is the situation with Kryta. Despite the fact that, on the outward appearance, they look to be Ascalonian or of Ascalonian descent… they are as Krytan as the darker-skinned Krytans we found in GW1. Simply because 100% of the Ossan Quarter isn’t dark-skinned, does not mean they are any less Elonian for it (for goodness sake, the palest Ossan quarter member still says Ahai, and live in Vabbian, Kournan, and Istani-inspired homes.)

I suppose my summation to this little rant (as sleepy and tired as I may be), would be that there is only one flavour of humanity in GW, and it mirrors humanity in life. There are variations in physical appearance, ranging from the darkest to the lightest. But these appearances do not a culture make, and no culture or nation in GW has any monopoly on one ethnic group or another.

shrug Make of that what you will.

Edit: If I may add, you raise the Canthans a lot in the discussion of what a racial group ‘should’ be, yet fail to point out that they’re as homogenized as the Krytans, Ascalonians, and the Elonians. You don’t see them roaming about in what they wore in GW1, nor do you see a Canthan district that provides a cultural tie like the Ossan Quarter. They have even less of an ethnic identity than the Elonians do, having blended in with mainstream Krytan society just as the Ascalonians did.

One other thing of import, to add to the presence of horses in game…

Go to Divinity’s Reach, by the gates. You’ll actually find a collection of carriages. And they don’t seem to be the type to be pulled by oxen or dolyak.

Well, no, that’s the thing; we see that the things in the Mad Realm (candy corn and pumpkins, specifically) have ties to Mad King Thorn’s life before he’d ever died. So they most likely were put into the Mad Realm from him after he died.

One thing to add, Curuniel, is that the candy corn imagery actually did come from Oswald Thorn; during a famine, when the peasants begged him to lower taxes or do something, he instead ordered that they should ‘eat candy corn’.

Edit: As to the question of ‘Mad Realm changing Thorn vs. Thorn changing Mad Realm’, I’d argue that Thorn defined the Mad Realm to his whims and personality. The fact that the candy corn, pumpkin, and other iconography is directly related to him personally indicates that he probably shaped it to his will.

One thing to remember about King Oswald Thorn is that, even in life, he was supposedly a wielder of powerful and unique magic; after all, if not for the rebels chopping his body up and spreading it around Tyria and binding ancient magical seals, he would’ve been back up and around by now. Not to mention he’s managed to go toe-to-toe with Palawa Joko, and has that dangerous sort of insanity that makes you never know -what- he’s going to do next.

In the end, since we know that the realms of the Mists (under which the Mad Realm, as an extension of the Underworld, fits) can be shaped by the thoughts or whims of the ‘dominant’ force inside them (see: Shift from Realm of Torment to Redeemed Realm), it seems most likely that Mad King Thorn altered it to suit his particular tastes upon his arrival.

It is? We don’t find mention of an author, like we do with The Movement of the World; was it a dev post who said such? I’m curious, since that might make it less absolute.

Well, there is going to be a bit of pro-human bias simply due to the nature of the lore in Guild Wars 1; Halloween has always been about Mad King Thorn breaking free, Canthan New Year necessitates the Canthan element.

Yet, there is also attempts to bring in the others. Go to Wayfarer Foothills, and you will find a Norn kid dressed up as a “Reindeer Shaman” (aka Santa), which hints that the once human-exclusive Wintersday festival has incorporated other cultural traditions.

Well, one final thing to add to this, to counterpoint with Duke’s #1 point up there… but we have no evidence, beyond the Charr themselves, that they ever were native to Ascalon (except, of course, the northern part of Ascalon where the Ascalonians never got to, at least until post-Searing).

In counterpoint, the Ecology of the Charr (written from an out-of-character perspective) points to the fact that the Charr initially conquered Ascalon from the native peoples that lived there (most likely the grawl and ogres).

So, again, their being upset about Ascalon appears to be less a question of ‘losing their homelands’, and more about the fact that they lost. So harping on against the Ascalonians for being the same way is a bit hypocritical.

I believe it was also mentioned in one of the dev interviews, that Charr tend to live shorter (natural) liefspans than humans, disregarding deaths in combat.

The strange thing is, I think the 23rd comment might be a typo; the fact that Halloween events (and, in addition, the BLC) are on the 22nd is mentioned twice. The 23rd is mentioned once. One typo is understandable… but two, in the same piece?

My guess is it’ll be noon tomorrow.

I’m not able to get on my main comp at present (on a laptop right now), but here is a link to the event in question on the wiki:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ensure_that_the_Pact_holds_the_Gates_of_Arah

Kain Francois.4328:

Mechos.5640:

Well, Sieran (for all her bubblyess, one of the highest ranking scholars in the Durmand Priory, being a Magister and all) seems to believe that her spirit will go to the Mists. And, though I hate to bring it up, there is that one Sylvari commander during the Gates of Arah event that becomes an undead. Whether he’s meant to or not, it’s hard to say.

I don’t recall a Risen Sylvari even though I had done Gates of Arah many times.

Please clarify the specifics so I can see it ingame?

I think his name was Tactician Coehl? It was a Vigil, male Sylvari. Becomes a Champion on death.

Well, Sieran (for all her bubblyess, one of the highest ranking scholars in the Durmand Priory, being a Magister and all) seems to believe that her spirit will go to the Mists. And, though I hate to bring it up, there is that one Sylvari commander during the Gates of Arah event that becomes an undead. Whether he’s meant to or not, it’s hard to say.

Either way, I don’t think it would be implausible to think that Sylvari could become ghosts; heck, we see that inanimate objects (trebuchets, cannons, weapons) can become spirits.

Well, he might not have meant in a literal sense; after all, not all of Zhaitan’s minions were corporeal. Sieran being ‘under Zhaitan’s wing’ could mean that, rather than raising her as a Risen, she was turned in to one of the Orrian Wraiths (or it could be all three of them are now ghosts/spirits).

In which case, them coming back would be amazing. Think of it like our own personal Obi-Wan.

There’s also the sheer numbers of ships to consider; remember, Zhaitan didn’t just have access to a few scattered pirate ships at the time of Orr’s rising. A list of all the things that Zhaitan has/could possibly raise from the depths:

-The entire Orrian navy

-The massive fleet of pirates that had made the ruined isles of Orr their home-base and haven. Imagine something akin to Lion’s Arch getting killed all at once.

-Any ship that has sunk before or since Zhaitan’s rising, whether from natural weather or warfare.

Taking those factors in to account, it’s not a case of Lion’s Arch not being unprepared; they’re just vastly outnumbered, by a force that doesn’t have to deal with things like logistics, who can travel entirely submerged, and for whom casualties aren’t a factor.

Not to mention you have the collected tactics and knowledge of hundreds of different captains at his command; since we know that anything his minions know/knew, Zhaitan knows.

Hence why nobody has made it through the Straits of Malchor in the century or so since Zhaitan’s rise, and why the Lionguard/Pact/anyone else tries to fight Zhaitan in the air or on land, where that massive navy won’t be an issue.

Edit: Ah, that’s not even factoring in two things I forgot to mention. One, that Zhaitan also has a substantial force of undersea fighting ability; from undead megalodons the size of fishing boats, to the vast forces of undead krait, quaggans, and hyleks that he has available. Plus the ever-present threat from the air, and the risk of biological weaponry.

One other thing to note that the Norn bring to the ‘alliance’, so to speak, is craftsmanship. The best metalsmith and craftsman in GW1 was not one of the Dwarves, a race spanning back milennia with the finest known metal. It was, in fact, a Norn; Gunnar Poundfist, a man who had beaten the Dwarves at their own game, so to speak.

With Beigarth, the Norn continue this tradition; forging the finest weapons and armour on Tyria. Being such perfectionists, Norn craftsmanship is the gold standard of metalworks, or so it appears from NPC’s in the game.

So they not only bring the most individually powerful members, each Norn being a walking siege engine by themselves (metaphorically speaking, of course), they also bring the greatest craftsmanship in Tyria.

If I may provide something to counterpoint the ‘Charr were justified in retaking Ascalon’…

They initially conquered it as well from the other races that surrounded them (Grawl, Ogres, etc.), as mentioned in the Ecology of the Charr:

“No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed.”

So, yeah. To put it mildly, the Charr being all hurt over losing Ascalon (And not, as was shown, their homelands; after all, the Charr Homelands in GW1 were untouched) is quite hypocritical.

Well, to come back to this topic, the key problem I find is that they say there are multiple words for hunt, implying that in the Norn language has that. So it doesn’t appear to be like the difference between Ascalonian and Krytan, where they share a language but different alphabets. It appears to be more compatible to the difference between Ascalonian and Old Canthan.

What intrigues me is, given how long-lived the Norn are (with lifespans exceeding 100 years), is that no traces of the language remain. We don’t see the Norn conversant in the language of their grandfathers, even when legend and history are so important to them. It just strikes me as rather odd, and I’m curious as to what this Norn language might have been.

Hey all! One thing that I found during my trip to the Durmand Priory, that I thought I would share/speculate on you all… namely, that one Norn NPC speaks of a unique Norn language.

In one of the idle banters in the Durmand Priory instance, a Norn scholar decries the usage of Krytan script; ‘too flowing’, in her words. On being explained that the humans argue of Krytan being a universal language, the Norn promptly responds by deriding it… and mentioning that it only has one word for ‘hunt’.

This leads me to two (albeit small) conclusions from her words:

1) That there is another language spoken by the Norn, with multiple words for hunt.

2) This language has a more blocky script than the current Krytan alphabet.

To further support this, I point to the runes evident on Norn signs in GW1, which we had no idea as to the true origin of until this point:

Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? Do tell!

Well, Konig, one problem with that I find is… the statue of Grenth in Divinity’s Reach has a quotation from Malchor on it, indicating that he -was- the one to sculpt it (or the people are the victims of quite a large hoax).

Just my poke in this here thread.

Well, yes. But that still doesn’t raise the question of the ones that existed in tombs/graves/etc., which would’ve been blocked off from Khilbron since they were underwater. Again, since Zhaitan raiseskittennear everything it can find, there would have to be some elements of the Orrian army that were raised at some point, statistically speaking. A nation that exists for 1000 years, as the centre of human culture, doesn’t seem the type that wouldn’t have large military gravesites.

Well, again, Konig; I’m not so much arguing that there are too little Orrian army members. I’m arguing that there is, point blank, all of one encountered in the entirety of Orr.

Even discounting the standing army at the time of the Cataclysm, we’ve seen that Zhaitan has no problem with raising long-dead corpses to his service (See: Cathedral of Eternal Radiance, and the various princes and [spoiler] Eyes [/spoiler])

Again, it’s the fact that we see none of the Orrian army. Even if they had a small army, surely they would have kept some in reserve back at home?

It’s one of those ‘just bugs me’ things.

The real interesting question is, what were they originally; it appears there was some native Tyrian species of dragon (see: Rotscale) that has long-since been driven extinct… but hardly anything is known about them, beyond the fact that they seem to have the propensity for being resurrected time and time again.

Well, Konig, he is the Elder Dragon of death; it could just be he’s always been ‘dead’, so to speak.
I actually do hope that Zhaitan isn’t dead; him being killed by a bunch of yahoos with lazer cannons seems… well, anticlimactic. We were questioning whether they even -could- be killed, much less taken down by a single airship.

So, if I were ANet? Just have it so that Zhaitan has gone back to bed and leave it at that. Can’t kill ED’s, just like you can’t kill earthquakes; you can just silence them for a little bit.

Hmm, it just strikes me as odd, Konig; namely, even if we take into account the presumption that the army that Khilbron sent to Kryta was largely military (something I would, actually, support), that still begs the question of why Zhaitan wouldn’t utilize them?

We can certainly see that during the War in Kryta, the undead are still up and about… and I think the Manuscripts mentioned that there were still the wandering undead in Orr?

I can understand why there might be a shortage of military in Orr, but a complete lack seems to baffle me. If Orr’s army was a rival to Ascalon’s (an army which, in death, manages to stretch over the entirety of the country), it seems reasonable that the force we saw in GW1 was only a small portion.

… though this also raises the question of why we don’t find any coral-infused Charr from the Cataclysm.

No, the Cataclysm was a last-ditch effort by Vizier Khilbron to (supposedly) save Orr. In reality, he was just doing what Abaddon wanted him to do.

It’s mentioned that the Charr had already beaten the Orrians back to the gates of Arah when it happened, and some mention of an Orrian army. Let me get the specifics.

From the Guild Wars Manuscripts:

“Hopes were high that the Charr would be defeated quickly. The Orrian army was the equal of any in Tyria, and the invaders had already fought a long battle against the Ascalons. But those hopes were dashed in less than twelve hours.”

A question for all you fine folks, and something that fits in the ‘Just Bugged Me’ category, but…

We see the native Orrian undead are mostly the civilian population. We see nobles, villagers, fishermen, farmers, servants, heck, even magicians and jesters. But what we don’t see anywhere is the Orrian army.

As far as I know, the only part of the Orrian Army that we ever meet, much less fight is:

Does anyone find this rather odd? Even if the army had been killed by the invading Charr, there would have still been the corpses to raise, since Zhaitan doesn’t seem to take issue with yanking out corpses from tombs and graves. So…

… where are they?

I never argued any sort of psychological basis; the thing would apply for say, a human, or an Asura, or a Sylvari. Once you isolate someone like that, they tend to pretty swiftly lose all sense of… well, identity. That, or they tend to die pretty readily.

My point from that small section is that the other four races rely upon others to survive; Norn, by their very nature, need nothing but their own two hands. Their culture, their society, their very way of living from the day they’re born until the day they die is one of independent work and solitude. Even Hoelbrak, the largest congregation of Norn in Tyria, is little more than a ‘rest stop’ for Norn in-between hunts or journeys.

Again, I am a fan of the Charr; they’re probably my second-favourite race, after the Norn. But saying they’re individualists that don’t use crutches, is rather… false, since we have an example of a race that -is- built around that concept.

And, AuldWolf, you fail to see that the Charr do have a crutch; an individual Charr, to the society they are in, is pretty much worthless. A cog in the machine, a part of their social machinery. Take a Charr and throw him in to the wilderness, alone, and they would most likely die of starvation or revert back in to a beast-like state; they rely on farmers and ranchers to feed them, leatherworkers to make their clothes, smiths to make their weapons.

A Norn? The -majority- of Norn society spend their time as ‘solo hunters’, roaming the woods and mountains, perfectly happy to exist independent of everything. That is the key, and what you glossed over in my quotation of A Spirit of Legend. “A Norn lives and dies by her own legend.”

I am curious to why you say that the Norn -need- the spirits. Your citation, your… ‘source’, if you will? As someone who has played a Norn to 80, gone through the storylines multiple times with multiple variations in the betas, you seem to be grasping at straws. The Spirits are to the Norn what a friend might be to a Charr; they help give advice, but in the end, the Norn’s will and independence triumphs over everything. They don’t draw their confidence from the Spirits, nor their strength.

Also, your saying that the Norn ‘needed’ the Spirits to lead the Norn south from Jormag shows your lack of understanding. The reason the Spirits led them south, is because the Norn were merrily attacking Jormag; and some Norn -still- want to go back up north and hunt the dragon. Death is not something feared in Norn culture, not some great ending. What matters to a Norn is that they die well, that they are remembered for their legend.

What matters is not to live, to a Norn. What matters is to be remembered for the life you did live. So no, the Norn didn’t ‘need’ the Spirits; it was just the advice of a friend, and they were like “Eh, might as well.”

So, again. The Norn have no such ‘crutches’. The only ones that use a Spirit as a crutch are the Sons of Svanir… and if we’re factoring them in, then the Charr of the Flame Legion use a massive ‘crutch’.

In essence, AuldWolf, I kind of think you’re trying to misinterpret the other races (namely, Norn) in an attempt to try and make the Charr special. Which isn’t necessary. They’re a great race, but to say that they’re the most self-sufficient and independent, when the Norn have been specifically billed as that by multiple developers, in multiple posts.

The Charr are a great race; they have their unique flair, their military style, and a deep history… but they are not ‘perfect’, and they do have flaws, reliance on their Legions, and other charr being one of them. They work in numbers, not solo.

And back! Now, to address your continuing misconception AuldWolf…

The Norn do not rely on spirits for power. You see them give -respect- to them, but how many Norn beg for power? How many grovel and whimper, like the humans do, licking their gods’ feet in return for some small boon?

The answer? Only the Sons of Svanir. Which is one of the many reasons why they are looked down upon by other Norn. Rather than standing on their own, and earning their strength, they barter and bargain with their ‘god’ for it.

To quote a Spirit of Legend:

“The norn believe in personal strength, individual victory, and an earthy spirituality that is both primal and complex.”

" Some spirits are not sentient, such as Mountain, Fire, or Darkness, and are depicted as challenges to strive against or legendary obstacles placed in a hero’s path, rather than friends or guides like the Spirits of the Wild."

I have more, but… I think the most potent definition of the Norn culture, of how they stand on their own, without god, kings, or even other Norn… is this.

“A norn lives and dies by her own legend.”

In the end, while the other races need others to forge their legends; the Asura with their krewes, the humans and their ‘government’, the Sylvari with their Firstborn, and the Charr with their Legions.

A Norn stands alone; a mountain, that bends to nothing.

And they are the staunchest friends the Charr can have.

On a personal note, and don’t take this the wrong way, but AuldWolf… are you known by DuskWolf on the GW2Guru forums? I’m just kind of curious, you remind me of him a bit.

Not going to get into the main essence of the argument (though I would love to; sadly, duty calls), there is one thing I would wish to correct in AuldWolf’s post.

The ‘No crutches’ point is rather… wrong, at least in regards to the Norn. Even more than the Charr, the Norn rely on nothing; not kings, not gods, and not even each other. The Spirits are not ‘gods’, to the Norn… they’re more like friends. They don’t get down on one knee and throw their fate in the hands of the Spirits.

The only thing a Norn follows… is himself. No warband, no legion, no god or king can give them commands. They are each sovereign of themselves, and will die to defend that fierce independence.

Just a quick clarification. Please, resume your regularly-scheduled Charr talk!

Ah, basically, it’s something you can really notice with male and female Norn. When females wield a greatsword and walk, they get a unique animation; Norn men don’t. It also applies to things like rifles and such.

Trust me, once you notice it, it just really starts to bug you. Makes Norn seem unfinished.