I love this idea. Here’s how they might be able to implement this:
1. You can “enchant” top-tier items so they get stronger. To let players know how far they’ve managed to do this, each successful enchant adds a +1 to the name of the item. Hence, a sword that has been enchanted five times would be “Sword +5”.
2. The first few enchanting levels will always succeed. However, to make the cost go up exponentially, as you suggest, each tier of levels after that will have a random chance to fail. Failure means your item decreases a random number of enchantment levels.
3. To make things more in line with the recent focus on RNG, we will also introduce the chance for an enchantment to fail critically. A critical failure causes the item to break. Broken items cannot be used, but can be repaired using an item from the cash shop, or can be recombined in the mystic forge using some t6 material, ectos, and the original broken item.
4. To balance this all out, an item that allows you to guarantee a successful enchant should also be introduced in the cash shop, so that casual players are able to keep up.
This is just a rough guideline, but I’m sure that Arenanet, backed by the massive MMORPG experience of NCSoft and hence Nexon, will be able to make sure that their implementation of this will be flawless.
Ouch, not what I had in mind at all. This wasn’t a suggestion for the game or anything, I’m just curious how VP affects player behavior. If there is a maximum tier that is easily obtained, but with open-ended enchantments, would this satisfy both types of players (HP & VP), satisfy no one, or somewhere in between?
Moreover, in order to keep all areas and zones relevant, enchantments could require components of all tiers from all parts of the map. Which components are required could be dependent on which item slot is being enchanted and/or what stat is being added.
Vertical progression is here, and it’s here to stay. The AMA confirmed that much for us. While the realized increase in power may be quite small, it has had a large effect on the content that people are choosing to play and is affecting how people are grouping up. I believe this is largely because many players feel compelled to reach the maximum power level: max character level + max gear.
What if the top-tier/BiS is very easy to get, but that it could be continually upgraded in small increments via “enchanting?” Let’s suppose that +stat upgrade on a piece of gear is open-ended, but that the cost goes up exponentially as you want to put more and more +stats on it.
This would allow vertical progression that is essentially unlimited, but the cost to increment becomes prohibitive at some point…say the practical limit for most hardcore players is an increase of +10% to stats ([naked + base top-tier stats]*1.10) after several months of play.
What would happen if no one could ever truly max? Ironically, I think this would actually be better than having increasing discrete tiers. The progression would have smaller increments instead of an all-or-none big jump. No one would be driven to get the BiS because there is no “best,” only “better.” I would also reduce elitism with enchanting by making it so that pinging gear only shows base stats without the increase from enchanting.
So which is it then: warriors are OP or warrior are bottom of the barrel?
I’ve seen a lot of other threads where they’re continually said to be a top-tier PvE class.
Would I? I have already…with full explanation of the good, the bad, and the ugly.
….
Those then stating that they apparently have been conditioned into always needing to have the BiS gear at any given time, I can only say to learn how to deal with that mindset. It will give you much more enjoyment of the game.
I personally feel that Anet made the right choice on Ascended gear, it gives a little something to work towards while not having the huge legendary barrier to demotivate you. At the same time, the bonus is so trivial, that you’ll honestly will not need the stat increases to enjoy all content. (As I’ve stated, you don’t even need Exotics to enjoy all content, I can do level 10 FotM fine in yellows) Honestly, I feel this is something that is good for vertical and horizontal minded players alike, there is still something to keep one kind of player ready, and the horizontal minded players can enjoy the entire game the second they hit 80, since 80 yellows are incredibly easy to acquire.
…
I’m going to play devil’s advocate. What if the top-tier/BiS is very easy to get, but that it can be continually upgraded in small increments via “enchanting?” Let’s suppose that +stat upgrade on a piece of gear is open-ended, but that the cost goes up exponentially as you want to put more and more +stats on it.
This would allow vertical progression that is essentially unlimited, but the cost to increment becomes prohibitive at some point…say the practical limit for most hardcore players is an increase of +5% to stats ([naked + base top-tier stats]*1.05).
What would happen if no one could ever truly max? Ironically, I think this would actually be better than having discrete tiers. The progression would have smaller increments. No one would be driven to get the BiS because there is no “best,” only “better.” I would also reduce elitism with enchanting by making it so that pinging gear only shows base stats.
I think it’s the uncertainty about what direction the game is headed. People are waiting to know more.
@ nacho, that doesn’t make sense, if people stop buying gems, the price would go down because the demand would be less.
I think nacho means if people stop buying gems with real money, the gem price in gold will go up because there are fewer gems available for purchase with gold.
Warrior – pistol (main and offhand), since they do not currently have a 1-handed ranged option
Engineer – I don’t know what would fit, but they need a melee option. Maybe axe or mace, not sure what is most fitting
Offhand scepter – no one gets to use them offhand
The Elder Scrolls games almost make me think of a first-person shooter combined with an RPG. These types of hybrid games are among my favorite, and I usually try to get my hands on single-player games that fit this. Fallout 3 and New Vegas also fit this description quite nicely.
The whole “switch servers” thing might be more productive if we had an idea of what is actually going on in each server.
It might be useful if servers were designated for different things. The designations wouldn’t be binding, of course, but at least it would give players an idea of what to expect.
I strongly believe GW2 should have taken the sandbox approach. However, the developers made several design choices that put GW2 into a corner, such as separating WvW from the PvE world, opting for per-player instanced resource nodes, and the general anti-competitive feel of the PvE world.
How did these design choices back GW2 into a corner? Are you saying that a sandbox must be PvP with competition amongst players for resources, etc?
I have a strong preference for playing with people who I know in real life. Since it’s tough to stay “in step” with our levels, we tend to play solo during the level up process. Once we’re at max level, that’s when the grouping begins since we’re not worried about being at different levels or trying to maintain equal levels.
As Corvindi said, there’s a lot of de facto grouping without actually making a group. This happens a lot with DEs. Because of the way that tagging and resource nodes work in this game, this sort of informal grouping works quite well.
Why don’t you answer your own question and go into the game development industry and see exactly how many hoops you need to jump through and how much work it takes to get even the most measly of updates okayed and delivered to the customers.
QFT. The level of scrutiny that any comments or new content goes through must be incredible. Anything that they say or do is going to be overanalyzed and picked apart.
once again, you want the reward without the work
Let’s say I invite a friend to play GW2 with me. How long should it take them to start a new character, get to maximum level, and get max stat gear? What is a realistic amount of time where they have “earned” it?
This is a game, which I play it for fun. Once it has devolved into work, I know it’s time to move on to something else. If it’s work, I want to get paid for it.
Things that GW2 took from GW1 that I like:
-Builds based on having limited skills available at any given time. You have a pool of many skills, but you have to pick which ones to equip. This is better than other games where you have dozens of skills available at any given time
-Lack of focus on consumables. Yes, there is food…but no endless health potions, mana potions, etc.
-Campaign missions within the game
-Fast travel. It costs, but it’s still there
Things they added to GW2 that I’m glad to see:
-z-axis
-underwater, even though it does have its problems
-improved mobility in general
-skill bar compression. No need to carry rez skills. Chains take up only 1 slot, some skills have multiple modes (ie press deploy minion/turret, press again to do something else), signets have passive ability and active
-more options in itemization
-profession mechanics are more interesting than in GW1
Things I miss from GW1 that didn’t make the cut:
-I’m going to agree with others on here: signet of capture was great
-Vanquishing, hard mode in general. I know not feasible for non-instanced explorables
-reaching max level with max gear was very quick
-huge variety in skills and builds
-heroes, ability to build an entire skillset for a party. Team builds instead of just characterbuilds
(edited by Merthax.5172)
It seems that almost all big games have shaky starts, and this one is no exception. Even GW1, which I speak so highly of, I didn’t start playing until Nightfall was out.
There are still lots of bugs in the game that need to be fixed as well as some balance issues. There was the backlash against ascended gear. I am very curious to see what ArenaNet does with gear in the future. I believe this will be a pivotal issue for a lot of players.
Give it time and see what happens. Step away from the game if you must, but give it a chance. I do hope that the people that quit the game reconsider at some point.
You don’t have to accept their join request.
Magic find should be the stat bonus that has ascended gears have over exotics: ascended stats = exotic stats + MF.
Lower tiered gear shouldn’t have MF at all. It should be replaced with something else.
Roll an alt, don’t let the gear progression thing stop you. Actually, rolling alts is a good way to stay out of the endgame if it isn’t your thing.
I strongly suspect that ArenaNet will change things, so I wouldn’t worry about not being able to get geared up.
dalendria:
I wouldn’t have truly expected new content until an expansion was released. I think one of the problems is that people have 100s of hours into the game even though it’s only been out for a few months. With no additional content, the as-released game had a large amount of content and provided an excellent value for my gaming dollar.
Hard mode in GW1 was an excellent way of making non-endgame content relevant at endgame power levels, but this only worked because all combat areas were instanced. Also, one must keep in mind that I think most people are remembering the conglomerate of 3 stand-alone campaigns + 1 expansion.
I think everyone on here agrees that horizontal progression is more difficult from a development point of view.
I like how XP remains useful even after attaining maximum level.
I try to at least get the daily every day, if I’m strapped for time. Aside from that, I spend a lot of time leveling since I have several alts.
The mechanical advantage of the increase in stats from ascended will be fairly small once aggregated with naked stats, traits, and slots for which ascended doesn’t exist (yet?).
The problem is that it’s going to have a big influence on the mindset of the in-game community. For a lot of people, gameplay is going to focus on acquiring that higher tier gear, even though the benefit is small. Likewise, it’s going to add a sense of elitism in grouping…if they’re even running other content at all. What this ends up doing is dividing the community.
It isn’t the mechanics of the change so much as it is the meta-game aspects that bother me. If I could find a server that had a community that largely eschewed ascended gear and maintained the attitude of running fractals “just for kicks,” I think the addition of the gear would become transparent.
They should try to merge people from different servers for zones that have low population.
The idea behind buying the gifts is that you could get more than the account maximum per week (or was it per day?). If I remember, your account was limited to only getting 5 per week.
Keep in mind that if you bought the game before Black Friday, that means you were able to play the game before Black Friday. You got access to the Halloween and Nov 15 events. People who are just buying it now missed out on those events.
There is value in having something sooner rather than later. I would rather have someone give me $1000 now then $1000 a year from now.
Yes, the introduction of vertical progression obsoletes a lot of previous content. That’s why I’m surprised that game after game uses this. More vertical progression = more content that a player only uses briefly.
Don’t make this a backhanded attempt at bringing up ‘progression’… the home cities were fairly empty even before that. Stay on topic.
Sorry you dislike my observations on this subject. While you are correct that it probably isn’t applicable to the cities themselves, it most definitely does have an effect on the “combat” zones outside the cities. Many of these areas are very well done and have excellent artwork.
1) An Ascended weapon will have additional weapon damage, which all by itself will add more than 2% to damage even at a realistically expected increase… never mind the increase of a full set of berserker’s Ascended over Exotic. But, it will be some time before you can dress in all Exotic and “appreciate the math” of being pounded on by someone in all Ascended.
2) The percentage increase in other games doesn’t really matter. Mobs are scaled up to meet that percentage and in PVP gear differences are usually nerfed (because fighting someone that does 3 times your damage is dumb). So you might say that stat-wise you could suffer through Ascended level content in Exotic? Well, agony is there to prevent anything like that!
3) Only having 3 slots of Ascended items so far is a non-talking point. They are in the design, and they are coming to a grindy experience near you soon!
There is already a huge disparity in WvW, going toe to toe with an actual level 80 with full exotics stat’d will get you killed regardless how good a player you are at say actual level 50 or less, AKA why there is so much zerging.
Most of my guildies don’t have a single Ascended and have faced level 12 Agony, it’s certainly doable.
I enjoy the dungeon, as do many people, which is why there are rather large complaints about them pulling so many people there, i don’t consider content i enjoy doing, grindy.
Why are you telling me about dying at level 50 nonsense? You are implying an 100-hour grind to max level makes a 500+ hour grind for decent gear on top of it just fine? Level 80 and Exotics was about the limit most people would do for a WvW experience with another class (many I know didn’t even want to do that). Ascended gear is a bit insane even with just one class.
Sorry, you feel the 100+ hours in the game was a grind. I don’t know what to tell you. I’m in full exotics and enjoyed the journey.
While I would have preferred a quicker progression from 1-80, for a variety of reasons, I do not consider it to be a grind. 1-80 can be had fairly quickly with a minimal amount of content repetition. This is in direct contrast to gear grind, which often requires repetition of the same content ad nauseum.
The argument for horizontal progression (vs vertical) and the argument against grind are similar and have some overlap, but they are different subjects. Past a certain point, vertical progression does often devolve into grind. This is partially because the overall content of the game must be split up into more and more levels of power. This means that the content is less interchangeable, and players have fewer and fewer choices on what to play at any given level of power.
Yes, the introduction of vertical progression obsoletes a lot of previous content. That’s why I’m surprised that game after game uses this. More vertical progression = more content that a player only uses briefly.
Please tell me you’re kidding! There is a price for being first when it comes to things like games and tech gadgets. You get the use of that device/game earlier than others who choose to wait. The opportunity to use it sooner rather than later is worth something. If you don’t want to pay the higher price, then wait until it goes on sale…but don’t come on here asking for money back or some type of free upgrade.
And make sure you never buy a new car, since it will lose 20% of its value as soon as you drive it off the lot.
A couple of points:
I think it’s funny when someone points out not wanting gear progression as “lazy” because we don’t want to run dungeons and grind for new content. Guess what, I don’t want to play a game once it devolves into work. I don’t log on to work, I don’t log on to prepare to have fun. I log on to cut to the chase and have fun. I don’t want to be funneled into running specific content, repeatedly, because of game mechanics. I had years of fun playing GW1. I played content in the order I chose, with little repetition because I could cycle across all the content.
Comparing progression in real life is a bad example. Progression in real life tends to be prestige and wealth. As far as physical stats, they tend to decrease. A person will not have the physical endurance/strength/toughness at 60 as they did at 25. But the 60 year old may very well have more wealth or prestige in their chosen profession if they plan properly and work hard.
Even though the ascended gear may only increase performance by 1-2%, once it’s aggregated with non-ascended gear and base stats, this gap in stats will affect the psychology of the gaming community and have ripple effects on the overall game. It will impact what content people run and who they group with.
In Guild Wars 1 you had to play in a 4v4 arena match to get out of pre-searing. Guild Wars was a PvP focused game, maybe do research next time.
That requirement has been changed, there is no longer any PvP requirement to get out of pre-Searing Ascalon; this is presumably because the developers came to the conclusion that it was a really bad idea.
Jade Quarry etc. were actually on the WORLD MAP so were included for good reason, well a more logical one at least than this hoops jumping tactic. Pre-searing wasn’t even included in the Cartographer title so you’re talking rubbish anyway (Waffler).
I bet people would still defend ideas like this even if they made you buy gems for 100%
Ps. I and many others (Guildies/Alliancies etc.) played GW1 for years and thought of it as a PvE game with PvP elements, depends on your perspective I guess. Although I think originally GW was intended to be PvP with the world being the tutorial or something?
Pre-searing is a time, not a place. The area encompassed by pre-searing is required for Tyrian/Legendary cartographer, it’s just that you explore that part of the map after the searing.
Both Backpack and rings are 20%. The Karka Shell vs the Ring that doesn’t exist in game but you love to quote is around 20% as well if a similar upgrade slot for divinity based stat setups existed. An exotic ring vs an ascended ring that isn’t the ring that you won’t stop quoting is 20%. That’s really not super significant. Yes it’s nice, but it’s not so huge that it’s necessary for anything specifically.
But that’s my opinion. Some people might find it worth it.
20% on one item isn’t significant because it’s watered down by the aggregate stats of items for which ascended versions do not exist (yet!). However, 20% on all item slots is most definitely not trivial.
The real problem, as I see it, is that the increased stats on these items are affecting the psychology of the game community. Even if the increase is very small, people will just have to have the new gear. People are driven to “progress” if the game will allow it, even if the progression is marginal at best. This will affect what content is played and how people group up. I think that once people are fully progressed, they’re just playing for fun instead of some concrete end goal that requires a specific mode of play. You see more things like people helping lower level guildies with content and generally more friendly play because the need to progress has been removed.
Since this is an achievement/cosmetic thing, you are not at any kind of disadvantage if you forgo doing it. Acquiring a legendary is supposed to be a pinnacle achievement.
If it makes you feel any better, I had to explore PvP areas in Cantha to get the Legendary Cartographer title in GW1.
*Addendum: prior to the addition of ascended gear, and the upgrading of legendary gear to match, it was only a cosmetic thing.
PVE
- Not applicable at all, there are no benefits over exotic.
“Competitive” might not be the correct word to describe the situation with PvE. It has more to do with content gating and the change in end game goals that leads to grouping elitism.
My primary concern with the addition of statistically superior gear is that lvl-80 gameplay is going to center around acquisition of said gear. It isn’t so much the gear itself, it’s what it does to the focus of the game. It promotes a style of play, and in-game attitudes that I would rather not be a part of.
Inferior to most of the players.
Inferior to you, and inferior to me. But neither of us have actual numbers to back up this claim.
Maybe there is a common ground that can be reached to where both sides can have cake and eat it too. If we look at other mmos with gear progressions, we find that the gear itself acts as a key to enter new content, thus creating a gated community. So new gear creates a sense of progression through the game. Guild Wars 2 on the other hand is a scaled universe. No amount of stat progression is going to make a player anymore powerful in any zone. Guild Wars 2 wants to focus around the player and not the gear.
IMHO GW2 before ascended items was a compromise, in that even the easily obtainable exotic items are a grind just an acceptable one.
Agreed…without crafting to level up, how long does it take to go from level 1-80 and get a full set of exotics?
And a better question: how long should it take to make a new character and get to full level and max-stat gear? This question is particularly relevant to those who wish to roll alts or those who want to invite friends to play.
It is optional. You don’t HAVE to do it.
Just keep your eye on the battlegrounds. Wait till your server is stomping face and go grab the PoI’s and such.
It’s part of the game.
If it’s not fun to you, don’t do it.Actually I don’t think it’s optional, if you want to get a legendary :W
And getting legendaries is optional. From my understanding, it’s also supposed to be quite difficult.
The faction repuation were indeed quite grindy, you would not get max rank without grinding. Lightbringer title did effect Realm of Torment, but there were PvE skills tied to ranks for: Lightbringer, Sunspear, Luxon/Kurzick, Deldrimor, Norn, Ebon Vanguard, and Asura.
None of these affected PvP in any way, but they did affect PvE. They didn’t actually gate content, and you could do just fine without using any of the PvE skills, but some of these skills were quite powerful or allowed off-class abilities that you normally wouldn’t have access to.
However, I will agree that they were an unnecessary grind that was added to the game after the original release. I also think a lot of players were discontent with the PvE skills and saw them as overpowered. Just look at Necrosis vs. Discord as a quick example.
As long as the game doesn’t become pay to win, I don’t really care what they put into the cash shop.
They have to make money somehow, otherwise there will be no game. Selling extra character slots, extra bank slots, cosmetic items, etc. I bought cash shop items in GW1, and I have done so in GW2 as well.
I agree with OP, videogames offer an incredible value for the entertainment value. Even games with a sub, the $/gameplay hour is minimal. Few hobbies are as inexpensive on a per hour basis.
I would say that 30 days is a reasonable amount of time to ask for a refund. Any more than that is dubious. Why 30 days? Because that is a common “money-back guarantee” or trial period for many products.
Gating content in a way that doesn’t invalidate previous content or affect other parts of the game would probably be just fine to the majority of the anti-grind crowd.
Take, as an example, 4 dungeons: A, B, C, and D. Completion of each of these dungeons is tied to an achievement/title. A, B, and C can be completed in any order, but D is gated until the other 3 are completed. Completion of these dungeons doesn’t have any effect on other parts of the game. By doing this, you have created a self-contained gate to content.
Going back to ascended gear: if ascended gear had identical stats to exotic gear, but also had the infusion slot. Infusions could grant increased stats as well as agony resistance, but they worked only in FotM. Again, self-contained content gating.
I expect to see reponse “A”. While this wouldn’t make me particularly happy, I will have a lot more respect if they at least own up to it. I think it will also help people that are holding out for some answers to move on.
Obviously I would like to see “C”, but I’m not holding my breath.
(edited by Merthax.5172)
GW1 didn’t necessarily have horizontal progression, at least not until you played it for a very long time and had every skill set and captured every elite you wanted to have.
At least for me, there were always new elite skills I wanted lot of which were gated
Green weapon drops and elite skills were actually closer to how vertical progression MMOs work – You reached it, you kill it, you get it.
People would not be so receptive to the system if say, a rare who drops a green instead has a 5% chance to drop a component, which you need 50 of, 50 skill points and 250 of a common material to craft.
GW1 did have some vertical progression:
-Getting lvl 1-20
-Getting max stat gear
-Faction reputation, due to the PvE skills that were linked to it
What you are describing about getting all the skills and capturing elites is actually an example of horizontal progression. Building the bar of 8 skills that you wanted, including the elite, generally didn’t take much time. Getting all the skills DID take a long time, but you reached “full power” once you had the 8 skills that you needed for your bar. The rest of the skills increased versatility and allowed you to experiment with new builds.
Moreover, part of what makes it horizontal is that you aren’t forced to acquire the new skills in any particular order. I got the skills I wanted first, then started capping elites by map to acquire all the skill hunter titles.
Of the vertical progression in GW1, the only one that I would say was a detriment was the PvE skills linked to faction rep. The journey from 1-20, getting max stat gear, and getting the 8 skills for your skill bar wasn’t too bad.
This is a false comparison. Real life careers aren’t “grindy” by design, it is simply how it must be. You produce a product or perform a service for money. This is simply how life works due to things like supply and demand. Companies generally don’t add grind (busy work) for the sake of keeping you busy, they want value-added work from their employees.
Games aren’t meant to be work and shouldn’t devolve into that. They are meant to be fun. Everyone has a different idea of what is/isn’t fun, and that’s why there’s debates.
I would hardly class them as most evil incarnate. A patch can be changed, things undone that were done.
The $64,000 question is: will they?
… This is “Occupy Arena-Net.” …
Funny, I thought the same thing that this has turned into Occupy Guild Wars [OGW]
Yes,
I too loved the the thrill of tailoring my skill part and my equipment loadout to take on specific maps in GW1. I had half a dozen different builds that I would run on just one character. While some of these builds seemed more powerful than other builds, they weren’t always the most effective for certain areas. They all had their own strengths and weaknesses, and there was a time and place for each of them. It was immensely satisfying to beat a challenging area because I had a well-designing skillbar that was played properly. Simply overwhelming the area with superior-statted equipment just wouldn’t feel the same.
As for equipment, it was important to use the right equipment. But it was like having a toolbox with a screwdriver, a wrench, and a hammer. They are all good at what they do, but they each have a different purpose. Moreover, none of these tools were difficult to acquire.
(edited by Merthax.5172)
Excellent posts, OP.
I think ANet would have done better keeping GW2 as a niche game than trying to appeal to the more mainstream crowd. There are tons of games with vertial progression to choose from, and GW2 will now have to compete with them all. The thing about being niche: you may have a smaller target audience, but you also don’t have much in the way of competition. Also with niche, the target audience tends to be far more loyal. They have moved themselves from a market with little competition to a market that is absolutely saturated. I expected to be playing this game for years, just as I did with its predecessor.
While I don’t expect ANet to right their course back to the original design philosophy, I too hope that another developer gets the message. The message being that there is a market for this type of game. Build it, and we will come.