Guild Wars 2

Good post, OP. I think you hit a lot of points here. In particular, I’m glad that you acknowledged that even though the change at this time isn’t major, it represents a major change in the direction of end game content.

I have tried, in earnest, to make constructive feedback on these forums. Unfortunately, I feel that anything useful that anyone posts is being drowned out in the cacophony of hateful comments. I understand that people are upset and feel cheated, but I do not want to be associated with the people launching these hateful personal attacks, even if my position on vertical progression is the same.

Personal attacks are not going to get ANet to change anything, in fact they aren’t even responding to us anymore. I can’t say that I blame them either. The level of disrespect on these boards is unreal.

I like the idea of showing on the map where other players are. This would be great. Notably though, in sub-80 zones, there can be quite a spread in player levels. I think most areas have a 10 level spread, but a few are 15. It might be more useful to only show other players +/- a few levels.

Columba.9730:

this is what all the grinders say. They say so because they know that they will have the gear and others will not. 20%+ better stats aren’t trivial.

Yep, tell that to anyone in any type of competitive environment. I’m sure a competitive bicycle rider wouldn’t worry about the opposition having a bike that’s 20% lighter, if all other aspects were equal.

Truly sad if the devs weren’t complicit in this shift in philosophy, and their hands were forced. To have worked so many years on a project of this scope…as disappointing as this is for the fans, this would be far worse for the devs.

I’m part of the crowd that is strongly displeased with the addition of ascended gear, as it is now. However, I’m also very ashamed at the amount of personal attacks that people have launched at each other and at ANet staff over this issue.

I don’t know if ANet devs made this decision, or if it came from above. What I do know is that while I disagree with the design decision, I don’t feel any personal animosity over it.

IF gear above exotic was purely cosmetic, would this even be an issue?

Nar.8327:

Iarkrad.8415:

illgot.1056:

I feel we need a gear score.

If people can’t at least bring top of the line exotics, they may as well not exist or even reply to my LFG spam.

Gear score where MF contributes nothing to the item’s score.

I’d go one further and make it count against it.

All MF on non-ascended gear should be stripped and replaced with something else. Then…ascended gear is statted equal to exotic gear, but with MF on it.

This solves 2 problems in one fell swoop:
-No one can complain about anyone running MF gear, because the option to sacrifice combat stats for MF no longer exists.
-Ascended gear is “better” than exotic, but doesn’t give anyone an actual combat advantage.

Hall of Monuments says hi!

My summary: horizontal progression = increasing versatility, vertical progression = increasing power.

Horizontal can be way more exciting. Think about how people spec differently for solo adventuring vs running in a dungeon?

The same could be done if content was such that certain skillsets worked better in certain zones while other skillsets worked better in other zones due to the monsters there. This is more exciting than just throwing bigger numbers at the monsters.

Crater.1625:

People oppose the changes being made to Guild Wars 2 not because they are in love with Guild Wars 1 and want Guild Wars 2 to be the same as Guild Wars 1, but because the changes are bad changes, taken on their own merits.

Guild Wars 1 is only mentioned in cases where either A) People seem confused as to how an online RPG can be successful without parroting the features of EverQuest/World of Warcraft, and Guild Wars 1 serves as an example of how a game like that can be successful, or When people bring up previous statements made during Guild Wars 2’s marketing with the argument that “they didn’t specifically say this with this specific wording so I don’t know why you interpreted it to mean that”. The same philosophy was espoused during Guild Wars 1’s development, and they maintained that philosophy for close to eight years - it was not unreasonable for people to expect that ArenaNet would adhere to those principles.

People are also not dogmatically in favour of keeping the game exactly as Guild Wars 1 was. Guild Wars 1 did not have a functional Z-Axis, jumping, or dodging. Do you see Guild Wars 1 fans saying that those mechanics should be removed from Guild Wars 2? No? Then ask yourself, what does that tell you?

Thank you, I think this captures the thoughts of many of us. I bought GW2 because I wanted the next evolution in the Guild Wars franchise. I’m thrilled about jumping, dodging, the increased mobility, and the beautiful environments. Even the underwater combat is an exciting addition.

GW2 was specifically sold as a game without vertial gear progression and to be anti-grind. This is what many of us expected, this is what we bought.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

Merthax.5172:

Actually, I would much rather see people drop 1-start reviews on Amazon than this talk I’ve heard about people asking for refunds. Expressing discontent with a purchase is legitimate freedom of speech, asking for a refund on a game you’ve already put 100+ hours into just seems dishonest.

They were sold a product where they were guaranteed that it wouldn’t be a gear grind. After 100+ hours in, GW2 devs are changing the direction the game is heading in. The game is now becoming a gear grind for the best gear.

False advertisement warrants calls for refunds.

Where do you draw the line though? What if the game changes 3 years from now? Most products come with some type of warranty. Since this isn’t a physical product that can break in the traditional sense, I would expect a “money-back” guarantee.

Typical products I have seen are usually along the lines of 30 days money-back guarantee.

Actually, I would much rather see people drop 1-start reviews on Amazon than this talk I’ve heard about people asking for refunds. Expressing discontent with a purchase is legitimate freedom of speech, asking for a refund on a game you’ve already put 100+ hours into just seems dishonest.

matenzo.9518:

A lot of people don’t buy mmos to end up repeating 5-player instances (that includes the pre-existing dungeons). For some of us such features don’t really feel like an mmo experience but rather like a multiplayer feature of a single player game. I guess we expect our adventures through the “actual mmo” content to be as fruitful.

That is very true, it does sound an a whole lot like an MP feature of an SP game.

Rieselle.5079:

I also think auto attack needs a change, but I disagree with most of you on what should be done. I think GW2 needs to learn more from action mmos and action games, rather than traditional mmos.

I like how some auto attacks are separated into combos, but there needs to be more variety and utility. The auto attack chain should include some branches that serve different purposes.

eg. for warrior axe, if you hold forward during the 2nd auto attack, the last attack will be a heavy chop that knocks the enemy down, but does less damage than the normal third hit.

eg. for warrior rifle, the 4th auto attack let’s you hold and release for additional damage, but it makes you stationary.

eg. for warrior sword, you can hold and release the 2nd attack. This opens up an entirely new chain of autoattack that has a powerful last hit, but it takes longer to reach because the entire chain is becomes 5 attacks long.

Just using warrior because I’m familiar with it (my other main is an ele and they’re probably busy enough with attunement swapping) but you can see where I’m going.

make most auto attacks into a branching tree of different skills. you vary your combo via a variety of different controls – hold/release, pushing a direction, even rolling during a combo. each branch has different trade offs and reasons to use them.

since many classes seem to be designed to rely on auto attack for damage, with the other skills used situationally, they should make using the auto attack more involved and tactical. This would make it more interesting and fun.

Sounds very much like a fighting game.

No one yet has explained WHY it matters whether GW1 is or is not an MMORPG?

I would describe it as a Diablo-like “action RPG” with a graphical lobby instead of a text menus for the lobby. Interestingly enough, the Diablo series is heavily based on gear progression, more so than most MMOs I’d say. Yet, if we use Diablo as the basis, GW1 deviated from that as well.

I made a post on this got lost in the shuffle: in addition to grinding for cosmetics, add items of “convenience.” These would be things like: increased inventory size, adding (or increasing) magic find, gear that is cheaper to repair, gear that affects harvesting/salvaging/crafting.

These convenience items would have a function beyond looking nice, but they wouldn’t make you more powerful in combat. They wouldn’t gate/obsolete content, and they wouldn’t be a divisive factor in forming groups. Sounds like a win/win for me. Max stats for those who want it, vertical gear grind for others.

Masterpyro.4310:

Why did I waste 2 months of my life leveling and getting all the gear if I’m on the same playing field as noobs that just opened an account? I love that this game is about skill, but I don’t think you understand the concept of reward in games, the way the industry has conditioned us to expect(Great video another player linked before that explains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c). That’s not how MMOs work. GW2 is a different game but you simply cannot take reward out of this style of game, it is expected. People are leaving the game because ANet tried doing it differently and unfortunately it doesn’t work as-is, people don’t like it, they are conditioned to feel like there’s nothing to do if they can’t get better “stuff”.

And I don’t give 2 kitten about looking prettier than you(I already found my favorite skins so im done in that aspect of the game), I want to rip off your head and kitten down your neck. “There’s other games that do this” is not a valid response, I want to do it in Tyria with these sexy graphics and this specific combat system.

What if those “noobs” just opening an account are your friends. Do you know how many games I’ve skipped past that my friends have wanted me to play? I won’t join a game if it’s going to take me months to catch up to my friends in terms of power. Vertical progression locks new players out of the game and locks existing players into their builds and professions.

Oh, and for “wasting two months of your life,” that implies that you spent those 2 months preparing to have fun instead of skipping straight to the “having fun” part. This is what GW2 was supposed to be against.

Agreed. Getting higher stat gear to fight higher stat monsters does nothing other than lead to number inflation.

All it does is gate some content while leading to obsolescence of other content. It also leads to stratification of power among players, which divides the community into segments.

So how to fix this:
-Decrease time to go 1-80, and merge sub-80 areas so that more of the existing areas are for lvl 80. Sub-80 areas will have a wider range of levels so as to not be so desolate
-Put players from multiple servers onto a single instance of a zone, I believe people have called this “underflow”
-Improve down-leveling to make it worthwhile for level 80s to return. Also, introduce upscaling in PvE. This would make areas more universal regardless of level.

Pirlipat.2479:

Merthax.5172:

I think we all need to pile onto one server and make a guild(s). The game will be much more pleasant if we stick together and have like minded people to adventure with.

I acknowledge that forgoing the gear grind might also mean forgoing expansions, but that’s a tradeoff that I’m willing to make.

<—- waves violently I want that guest-system so badly

As far as I know, free server transfers are still on option. Seriously, as a community, let’s designate one server for this.

They are still useful for getting XP to quickly level up. I use them on alts to get a few levels when I’m near a breakpoint (e.g. level 40, 60)

Hydrophidian.4319:

Merthax.5172:

Per common usage of the terms, GW1 is not an MMO

I’ve already demonstrated that this is not the case. It’s generally categorized as an MMO, and I provided several links in support of that.

@Creslin:

MMO and MMORPG aren’t synonymous.

You should be careful about the assumptions you make about the people you’re referring to.

Quite accurate, MMO and MMORPG are not synonyms. MMOFPS games exist, as well as some other categories, I’m sure.

GW1: you change your build from area to area in order to tackle the challenges that you are going to be facing. This including selecting appropriately statted gear for your build. This gear was easy to obtain, but you still need to make trade-offs. Do you want more armor, more attributes, resistance against specific elements, more energy?

This is much more exciting to me than: you grind to get higher-stat gear to tackle the challenges that you are going to be facing.

Per dictionary defintion, GW1 IS an MMO. Per dictionary defintion, a Mac is a personal computer (PC). Per common usage of the terms, GW1 is not an MMO and a Mac is not a PC.

Regardless, calling GW1 an MMO or not an MMO is a matter of semantics that has no bearing on anything.

All that being said, I do like some of the bar compression that was introduced into GW2. You no longer need to carry a rez skill, whole skill chains are put onto one skill slot, and you have skills that have different modes of use.

I will likely get flamed for this, but I actually miss the energy system that was in GW1. This allowed skills to have shorter cooldowns, but balanced by the fact that they had an energy cost that had to be managed.

This means that skills would see use more often, and I think the use of skills was more strategic because using skill A might mean you don’t have energy for skill B. Also, skills very often required specific conditions to be met to have full effectiveness.

It is a MONTHLY achievement. Even a casual should have the time for this in a month, should they be interested in pursuing it.

I think we all need to pile onto one server and make a guild(s). The game will be much more pleasant if we stick together and have like minded people to adventure with.

I acknowledge that forgoing the gear grind might also mean forgoing expansions, but that’s a tradeoff that I’m willing to make.

Uh oh, the semantics of whether GW1 is or is not an MMO. Does it really matter? Really now?

I’ll go along with GW1 not being an MMO in the sense that a Mac is not a PC (personal computer, irrespsective of OS). Even though by dictionary defintion, both items fit their respective categories, they do not meet the typical defintion per common usage. A better description for GW1 would be a Diablo-like game with horizontal progression and GUIs instead of text menus for the game lobby. Note that Diablo itself is heavily based on gear progression, much more so than your average MMORPG.

Just because no MMO that I know of has used horizontal progression doesn’t mean that GW2 shouldn’t have done it. If we stuck with only doing things that had been done before, we would all still be living in caves huddled over fires. Doing new things is necessary for any kind of evolution to take place.

Seriously suggesting League of Legends though? It has no PvE component and has a very rigid format. It fits into the e-sport theme quite well because of this, and has aspects that ANet should take note of should they truly want to develop the PvP into an e-sport. However, it really doesn’t seem relevant to discussions about the PvE portions of GW2.

It seems the community is fiercely divided into 2 camps: those who want vertical progression and those who don’t.

Those who don’t want vertical progression cite new skins (e.g. cosmetics) as a reason pursue higher tier gear, such as legendaries. Those who want vertical progression say that cosmetics alone isn’t enough of an enticement.

A question to both camps: what about vertical progression in the form of convenience items? What I mean are things that help your character without actually increasing combat effectiveness. A perfect example of this: ascended gear has same stats as exotics, but it also has magic find (or increases it over what exotic version has). Other examples could be items that affect salvaging, harvesting, or crafting.

Corvindi.5734:

And to think I was foolish enough to play alt after alt and never worry about getting to 80 in a hurry even for WvW because I knew when I did get there it would be a simple matter to get my exotics and be on par with everyone.

Now I’ll never get to experience WvW as an on par player. I’m so sad. I should have power leveled my first character to 80 and geared her up in a hurry instead. So much for playing my way.

Exact same m.o. I too was looking forward to having several alts to be able to change up my style of play at the drop of a hat.

I do not want to be locked into playing one character.

Coffeebot.3921:

My warrior is my third 80, the moment it hit 80 I had a full set of exotic armor and weapons with green accessories, within 5 hours of it hitting 80 I was bored of it… if the gear is too easy to get then it just means that people like me will be bored that much quicker.

As a side note, I’m not interested in getting any form of ascended gear because it require me to run fractals… and I hate running dungeons in any form, no matter how good (or bad) they may be, years of WoW just turned me off of the concept of dungeons in ALL games.

How many zones are designed for lvl 80 characters? Lack of gear grind isn’t why you got bored, it’s lack of areas for endgame use.

“Not acceptable?”

Unfortunately, you are going to eventually have to accept it and move on.

slazzy.7309:

Snoring Sleepwalker.9073:

slazzy.7309:

There was a huge outcry about no progression at endgame

Where was this outcry ?

Because I never saw it.

Really? Ok, I’ll take the troll bait. Warp back 2-3 weeks. All you saw was “no progression! We need progression! How can you have a game with no progression!”

:)

As I said before, you have only to thank yourselves for the mechanics changes.

Don’t piss in your bed and then cry when you wake up wet.

Nope!

The complaint was lack of content at maximum level. How many zones are designed for lvl 80 characters? What % of the game world is relevant once you reach lvl 80?

The more vertical progression you have in a game, the smaller the % of content is relevant at any given power level. In this regard, vertical progression limits content and starts a downward spiral of grind.

GreyFeathers.8175:

Yeah that server would have a self life of about 1 – 2 weeks because that would be the amount of time it would require for the elite crowd to become bored again.

Nope!

Remember, people are going to that server because they want to, it wouldn’t be imposed on anyone. Likewise, assuming that server transfers are still permitted, they could always transfer off.

Sign me up!

Guild Wars 2: Legacy

Giving higher-stat gear so that you can face higher-stat enemies isn’t introducing true difficulty or progression into the game. It’s little more than an illusion.

If you want more challenging content, just make it more difficult without increasing character stats. This means players will have to actually increase their skill level in order to defeat the challenge. Grinding to get better gear to defeat the challenge is not an indicator of skill, it is an indicator of time spent.

Real honest question:
How long (in gameplay hours) should it take to start a level 1 character and take it to max level with BiS items? Basically, I’m talking about reaching the maximum mechanical power of the character. Player skill, on the other hand, is an entirely separate matter.

ASB.4295:

Discrimination happened to the same degree GW1, but it was in slightly different areas, namely faction rank(for certain faction specific skills) and build/runes/insignia. It wasn’t a problem to get the right gear and upgrades, but you still had to title grind to be considered viable for “those” pugs.

“T-Way LF LB8 UA” or “LF 1hp BiP R9/10”

Truth! But I’m of the opinion that PvE skills tied into faction rank should have never been introduced either. This is the one area in GW1 where grind => power. As far as specific builds (exempting the PvE skills) or specific gear, these were quite easy to obtain.

I would have very much like to have seen grind => power avoided in GW2.

Yes, the presence of gear treadmill introduces a completely different mindset into the game. More than the actual increased stat gear itself, it’s the psychological effects that is has on the game community.

To illgot: I will interpret your post as sarcasm

A resounding yes.

Easily obtained max-stat gear:
-Encourages playing different professions and different builds within a profession
-Prevents gear checks/gating on content
-Prevents old content from being obsoleted when new gear comes out
-Prevents elitism in grouping (e.g. must have full exotics)
-Keeps game accessible for new players
-Keeps game accessible for players with limited time to devote to gaming

GW1 had plenty of endgame, none of which revolved around getting higher stat gear. Besides a well-developed PvP system, there was an abundant amount of PvE endgame:
-Elite dungeons
-Vanquishing and cartographer
-Campaign missions, which included time and other bonus conditions to challenge players
-Acquiring armor and weapon skins for cosmetic value
-Grinding for titles. This was fine, because titles didn’t actually increase your stats (with the exception of PvE skills linked to faction reputation…an unfortunate deviation from the tenets of GW1)

This change has affected my originally intended style of play, but I am changing (read: adapting) to the change by modifying my style of play so that the gear grind will not affect me.

I do not like the new endgame paradigm, so when I reach endgamed (lvl 80), I will roll a new character and start the progression to lvl 80 anew. If I happen to find a group of players who are not interested in end-game grind, I will be more than happy to adventure with them. If not, then I will stick to solo content.

Zid.4196:

Don’t try to simplify GW1’s feat.

It wasn’t just the no grind for stats. It was plenty of things, from the deck building to the art to who knows what magic.

The question is not what made GW successful. The question is why GW2 is so far off its predecessor while being too close to a WoW-clone.

Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a perfect game, but it did MANY things right that other games missed the boat on. It broke many tropes which needed to be broken. Unfortunately, I have yet to find another game that continues on this path.

Jasher.6580:

Do you want to easily win at PvP and PvE with the most overpowered class? That’s a no brainer… roll a Warrior. Also they will never get nerfed. Ever.

Really, are warrior’s considered overpowered now?

Maybe in PvE, but I keep hearing how terribad they are in PvP.

Before the introduction of the gear treadmill, I would have wagered that the cap would not be raised.

After the introduction of the gear treadmill, it seems blatantly obvious that they will raise the level cap.

Phy.2913:

All these people with lives should get together. With the amount of complaints about this you guys could form a whole guild together.

I’m game. If someone wants to start a non-grind guild…a guild not focused on the end-game gear grind, let me know.

I have no problem jumping servers.

To OP: I’m simply going to work on leveling alts and avoiding the whole end-game gear grind altogether.

I would have expected to be playing this game for years, but it looks like it will just be a few months.

I will probably continue with GW2 to get several characters leveled to 80. I may get them fully outfitted with rares, or simply retire them after their journey to 80.

I would consider returning to GW1, but I played it consistently for a few years and don’t necessarily feel the need to return. I may, however, if IRL friends want to go back to it.

The MMORPG genre really isn’t for me, but it appeared that GW2 would have been an exception to this. As I have seen others suggest, I might also check out TSW. Before long, I will likely move on and spend some quality time with single-player console games.

Xpiher.5209:

Merthax.5172:

It would be interesting to see what would happen if a large enough block of anti-grinders collected onto 1 server.

I keep hearing from people that this grind and increased gear is optional. They are right! ANet isn’t forcing us to grind for gear to get the increased stats. That is a player decision. I would say most of the pressure is from the community on each server.

No its not. Its the fact that Ascended buffs are going to be required FOR FUTURE CONTENT.

Then the community on that server would not play that future content, or will only play it until the “agony” (or whatever else they come up with) stacks to the point that you can’t progress further. Currently, I hear that as being lvl 10 on FotM.

This will also mean that expansions are almost certainly off the table. I would rather play the game with the content now without the grind, then to be funneled into grind progression just so I can play “new content”. If the server community shares this mindset, this means old content will still have players in it instead of making them ghost towns. I think that would be palatable to many of us.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if a large enough block of anti-grinders collected onto 1 server.

I keep hearing from people that this grind and increased gear is optional. They are right! ANet isn’t forcing us to grind for gear to get the increased stats. That is a player decision. I would say most of the pressure is from the community on each server.