Showing Posts For Mizenhauer.6713:
I know it doesn’t make sense…but that voice at the end sounds awfully deep for Forgotten. Is it possible he somehow passed the egg along?
1. Variety in raid size, duration, scope, and difficulty. Something like saving citizens in an LA evacuation type raid might be easier to do, but more complex in terms of coordinating a spread to save the number you need to win. Then you have something like marionette, your single “big” boss. You might then have a linear raid – boss to boss, trash/puzzles/whatever in between (tower of nightmares as a rough example.) And then there’s the titanic zone raid which also involves multiple bosses and objectives, but which also involves choice in terms of boss order, and choice in terms of where the group wants to go. Beating everything brings you to the final battle, but certain areas can be tougher so there’s a sense of progression.
2. Variety in the weapons/skills/traits best advised to complete a raid encounter. One boss may have a lot of aoe to reflect. Another boss may have adds that need to be kept away from the boss or some special area. Another might require you to keep an npc alive (total nightmare!) Some bosses should be easily melee’d, others less so. Make conditions more useful. I’m sure the cap won’t change, so consider artificial means (like the fire on the tar guy in arah). Perhaps one boss’s move is disabled as long as he has weakness on him, or chill. Some may require you to switch in and out of range and melee. I dig the very clear aoe indicators on those bosses in Glint’s lair.
3. Variety in rewards. I personally like a token system. If you go the guild route, commendations will do. Anything unique in the sense that it cannot be sold/traded could be limited to commendations plus a raid-specific endboss item (to prevent one from getting them through just bounties/rush/etc.) But if no one cares about the minis, or the sword of a thousand truths, or whatever special thing that comes from just a raid, also include obsidian shards, heavy crafting bags, materials, whatever!
(edited by Mizenhauer.6713)
I’m really enjoying this. The zone does feel like a battle. Love the vista music, dialogue, enemy placement. I like that they’re tougher. And I noticed they have menders which are acting very monk-ey. The new stat combo is great, and I think the armor is cool. A lot of win so far.
Well I hope a trait build option is ready by then. Switching all the time is a pain. At least trait wise. Utilities are quick and easy. Also, any boss needing something a bit more specialized, profession wise, can have an environmental object in the area that will perform some attack/move similar to what the profession could do. Something that puts down reflect or puddles of cripple. That might reduce the “need” for a specific class in a particular encounter. I can’t see it being a huge problem, since our professions are a bit more alike than classes in other games, but it could arise.
Do we think the pail price will remain the same? I’m not sure what to do about my candy corn orders. I’d let the order ride if the prices will remain the same. Otherwise I’ll just cancel them tonight. The pail went down this year, is that true? Or did the conversion rate for corn to cobs change?
And ultimately, and here’s a totally crazy idea (because I love brainstorming)… Why can’t raiding be both?
- If we have a singular story to tell, can it just be a one off instance that tells one story and has one final boss at the end (imagine if we rebuilt the Marionette to be a 15 man encounter in a raid instance and that’s the entire instance)?
- If we have a much larger story to tell, can it be a full sized map complete with multiple encounters and hidden areas to explore (imagine if Dry Top was a 15 man instance and you progressed through the map learning the story of how a huge sand storm is coming, and the final boss is some sort of magical sand storm giant that summons chickenados as its minions)?
Yes please!
I think getting Marionette and even the Battle for LA as Raid instance, Raid in the sense of more than 5 players, and not in the sense of being super long, is a great idea.
And PLEASE do make Raid that tell a story. Being a fan of the lore, new and old, would make me really happy.
I like what Crystal is thinking. Not every raid has to be the same thing. If this ends up being done through the guild UI, the guild can have a choice of what they want to do. A huge zone-sized raid with multiple bosses/objectives would take awhile and probably earn you more than something a bit more “in-and-out” like Marionette. The raid options could have an estimated time and/or difficulty associated with it on the screen, so a guild has a rough idea of how long it will take.
I think a mix of mobs/bosses is best. Mobile enemies would be nice for encouraging cc and more mobile friendly play (ranged). Structural enemies/bosses defeat the purpose of precision and ferocity. Slow chunkers can be easily stacked up on and taken down. As long as there’s variety, it’s more interesting. I guess nobody liked them, but I really liked the toxic mobs. Downed states may be another interesting thing. Not that I’d love being finished by a monster, but what if certain enemies could resurrect others? Interrupt the rez?!
I fully support meaningful, but limited trash mobs in raids. Don’t make it like the dungeons – that’s what looks bad. But how can you blame people for wanting to avoid it as much as possible? Too many mobs which are often very punishing. At least in Arah, the skipping is what I find difficult, not the bosses. Obviously you need some gating or no leashing if you really want people to be forced to fight your mobs, but if they were interesting, and limited in number, I don’t see it being a problem.
As for the zerker business, I’m torn. I don’t love how everything is made “easy” by being able to blow it down so quickly. But it’s not like just standing in the stack makes you win. Abilities are being used properly and at the right time. While I think one should certainly wear it if one can survive with it on, I think there is good reason to highlight other gear choices, even if its limited as a practical matter. DPS will always be king, so it goes. But a new element of play is born when you are no longer able to avoid most attacks. You may be forced to range, or someone may need to drop a water field, or someone may need to just outright heal you so you can proceed to deal high damage. I don’t think every fight should attempt to wreck the existence of the zerker. That wouldn’t be fair, and those people really are skilled. But giving a nod to other gear types seems like a step in the right direction. Traits and skill choice certainly dominate when it comes to playstyle…but it seems permissible to have a fight or two where that otherwise unwanted gear type emerges as the star in conjunction with a tanky or healy build.
Conditions concern me. I can’t see any way around that other than the creation of a new form of condition after a stack cap. As an example, I’ve seen someone suggest a “deep wound” be applied after 25 stacks of bleed, which then erases the bleed stacks. That’s probably a less than ideal situation, but I do believe conditions be given serious consideration when designing raid encounters.
As for cc, sure it’s currently used and is quite effective when the group is coordinating (or knows not to randomly use cc when the defiance is gone). It’s just not as obvious as something like tootsie, which makes clear when you need the cc. Perhaps the problems stems from relatively short cc. It’s not like we have polymorph or banish or long term cc. It’s more along the lines of subject 6 or the eastern battery at tequatl, where you’re just trying to slow something down/keep it away from something/or keep something in an area (mai trin). I do think cc should play a more obvious role in some fights, but I don’t think it’s so easy given the current system. I sort of like how it’s handled on the ice fellow in coe path 1, where he has no defiance after running into a pillar. There the cc serves largely as a means to slow down his boon refresh, but I like the idea of having moments where cc is uninhibited, but really helpful. Then again, I also like the idea of having a boss perform some attack that simply must be interrupted. In that case, the function of cc is less about what the cc does (save for the cc that lands once defiance is gone,) and more about stripping defiance so that the attack will be interrupted.
Oh and if for some reason they really want a healer for a fight, there can just be a buff that increases outgoing healing by X%. I wouldn’t start making it a main role, not now.
There are level 80 dungeons. I think what is meant by that statement is that there are multiple ways to go about leveling and few hindrances to your character throughout the process. While the trait and NPE changed this to a degree, there is still great freedom here. In WoW I had to do quests and kill to progress. While hearts/events and kills still achieve that here, I’m still progressing a bit just by exploring parts of the map, mining/logging/gathering, by crafting, vistas, etc. I don’t think endgame (in the sense that it is for lvl 80 “geared” characters) nullifies the greatness of the experience along the way. I still like doing map completion just to walk around again, despite the fact that I have no legendary plans. The key possibility excites me, but it’s hardly my goal. Endgame is just cool max level stuff to challenge groups of players. As long as there is no gear treadmill, I cannot see any reason to rush through what was otherwise a really enjoyable experience. I did it once per profession, and I’m sure others have leveled up way more than 8 characters to 80.
Sadly I don’t have time for a full post at the moment, but here are some brief thoughts. I’ve already seen a lot I like in the thread
Size: I like the 10 to 15 I’ve been seeing. I think that is better for smaller guilds.
Entering the raid: I don’t love the idea of merits to start it. I would prefer swirling portals that just kind of lead to them. But if this is going to be a guild thing, it makes sense. Just don’t make it as cost prohibitive as something like a world boss spawn.
Duration: I would love variety in raids. I’ve seen desire for zone sized sprawling adventures with multiple objectives. I suppose like your old elite zones (I’m a gw1 noob, only did it for some Hom points.) those might take awhile, and that is fine. But give guilds a choice of raid. If people have the time for that, awesome. But marionette would be a shorter kind of raid, just the boss. Other raids can be largely
linear with bosses along the way, like tower of nightmares! Perhaps between 30 minutes and an hour and a half? 2 hours?
Comat: again, variety, phased bosses like lupi are lovely. I like clockheart, the molten duo, Mai trin. The one golem in fractals has a Thaddeus move, that electrical charge mechanic. That would make for a lovely stack splitter. Oh, and try to avoid fights that will devolve into a stackfest. It’s fine sometimes, but I think an attempt to break up the ball would be nice. Someone previously mentioned a boss/enemy mechanic similar to spiteful spirit in gw1. That would be dirty. But just make it fun overall. I enjoyed shadow dragon. I like fighting spark and slicki. Try to bring out the mechanics in our professions.
Rewards: Tough. I think a mix of unique loot or tokens to obtain unique loot, as well as stuff you can sell. Perhaps give titles for doing the hard stuff, but let the items be sold. Allow people to show off their accomplishments, but don’t cause the average player to go “f” this game. As others have mentioned, raids are usually super hard at first, and then people figure them out. At that point everyone can pretty much do it. While I don’t see the GW2 raid being as “tough” as raids are elsewhere, they should certainly be challenging. So as long as they aren’t absurdly difficult, I don’t think it’s unfair to require players that want the reward to do the content.
That’s all I have now, but I’m glad this discussion is happening! Thanks.
(edited by Mizenhauer.6713)
I wonder if Ogden is Mr. E.
I just wonder why Descent into Madness was removed. I didn’t have the game yet first Halloween, but I’ve seen a video of the instance. It looked neat.
Well I’m late to this party, but standard boilerplate should do:
-It should scale, even if scaling stinks.
-Raids do not need a gear treadmill. Nobody wants that. It’s a pain, and it eventually makes the raid dead content.
-Raids should be challenging, but not impossible. Note that what appears impossible at first may not be. Raid encounters are oftentimes a “puzzle” as well (except when you get a tank and spank, those are rarely involved other than requiring fast damage.) While I’ll probably elaborate come cdi time, I do think some encounters should have different tasks suited for people of different skill levels. A simple example would involve keeping some mob away from a boss, like a subject 6 on a larger scale. Or pulling the chain at the endboss dredge fractal. The examples may not be great, but the point is that we don’t all need to making intense proximity love with bosses all the time (like in dungeons). Design it to avoid that.
-Unique rewards are an okay thing. Not unique as in statistically superior, but rather in appearance, or a title, or something. If it’s an item, allow it to be sold. Cash tends to be king here.
And I’m so sorry VeeWee, but I truly wish to try this.
Wahoo, bye frands! Now that was exhilarating.
Yikes. It’s kind of pooey. I tried to click the gem/gold icon to see if that brought me to a screen where I could convert manually. It did not.
Ah, thanks Tanith. I did not know he is trapped in the forge(s).
Why didn’t that jerk defend LA?
The Zhaitan fight is really awful. So are the long ship sequences. I actually liked the personal story, so it was sad to have such a non-fight with Zhaitan. I hope he’s not dead, because it would be nice to go in there with a party (or our pretend future raid groups) to finish the deed. The cannon beam damage would explain why a smallish group of heroes can go in and fight him. I’m not convinced….he just kind of falls.
Aetherpath is my favorite path. It’s the closest thing to whatever passes as a dungeon in other games. The cutscene issue is irritating, and that first puzzle/boss can be a real pugbuster. And it gives a terrible reward. It’s awful in many ways, but it comes off as a legitimate dungeon (as opposed to the general freak show we see now.) The bosses have decent mechanics. It can still be blown through by the excellent and/or prepared group. But it is quite different from the other ones. I have a feeling part of the cutscene problems have to do with it being a “live cutscene”. If that has dialogue, I don’t think it can be skipped, because if you could, the dialogue would keep running. The warmaster cutscene later on can be “skipped,” but you still have to listen to the dialogue before anything happens.
10+ raid size sounds good to me. I do think it should scale, even if scaling is terrible. I would just base it around 10 people. If it gets insanely difficult as you add more people (for various reasons,) so it goes. And aetherpath should definitely give 3g.
@Raiden: You can always “fake” a tank if devs really want one for the fight. Boss detects the one with highest toughness (something like that,) gives him or her the aggro boon, and now the boss has someone to follow. It can even shave off damage from the one with the boon. Melee dps to the rear. It’s artificial, but possible.
I agree, though. There are majestic things that go inside that ball of zerker. It really isn’t just stack and win all the time. But I think avoiding that in a raid (at least mostly) is a good idea. I also think avoiding too much emphasis on crazy twitch gameplay is a decent idea.
It’s okay to take a bit from the WoW. It’s seizing our dynamic events. Be a gelatinous cube, at least a little. Oh, and if you bagged that guy from Carbine to work on this stuff, kindly ask him not to design raids around the premise that the floor must be deadly at nearly every point in time. Not every encounter needs to be like the weapon tester in Molten Furnace times a million.
I’ll make do with 5. But it’ll probably be 90.
Interesting note: Arenanet is seeking a raid developer. Can’t say I know what that means, but an 8+ man against crippled Zhaitan would probably get me to send Anet flowers.
How bad could it be if ‘harder’ content gave better rewards? If it is limited to a daily bouncy chest, like a dungeon, I cannot imagine it destroying all of Tyria. Unique rewards would be the kicker. It would be nice if everyone had ways to get it, like a pvp reward track. I’d certainly take a reward track to get a molten jetpack. Or the sale idea people had earlier. I’d just make the theoretical unique drop common enough that the price isn’t too absurd.
Well, you can get clockheart from aetherblade, but can’t sell him. I wish there was a better way to get the skins, like that token book from the vendor, plus something else. I think putting unique rewards earned in specialty pve events/encounter/dungeons/yaddayadda into pvp reward tracks is a decent alternative for those not interested in the pve content.
I understand. And I’m certainly no skill King. I doubt I could face roll anything in arah, despite being two years in. In fact, this player no longer exists. I am merely his continued voice (and the fool still playing.) But there is an unavoidable ugliness to our dungeons. Something that stays even the most earnest attempts to view a gw2 video, or twitch channel. I’ve accepted our inferiority to WoW in the instanced arena. But it upsets me, particularly in light of the good in this game. There is likely no recovery.
I understand, I would too. I enjoy the lesser run paths as well, despite the poorer rewards. What I mean is the manner, the thing that, in part, elicits a smile in other mmo gamers when they look at our dungeons.
Yeah nobody would be forced to do harder content. What on earth could it reward that would be so amazing? Unique skins? Sell them on the shop too, or have a reward vendor sell them for raw gold. It’ll never pay out more than tp flipping or farming, which is perfect for people that enjoy zero challenge (well maybe not the tp part, I suck at it.)
To not desire more difficult content is puzzling. Especially here, in this freak show mix of a good combat system and terrible combat. Are people really that bad? I can’t believe that.
Once you get 80 the Deadmines open up in Queensdale.
Yeah it was surprisingly more interesting with GW1 combat. Maybe it’s because you were almost always fighting another “class.” GW2 dungeons are pretty much poo. They look terrible to an outsider. They even look terrible to an insider, until you learn to stop caring and love the gold. But you need to understand that the reason we play dungeons in such a stupid manner is because it’s the best way to get the gold at the end. There’s really nothing entertaining about fighting a vast majority of the trash that is skipped, and they drop, at best, globs of glooby poo. Bosses are largely one hit machines because…what else are you gonna do in a game where your tank is the v key? Anet never hit a middle ground on that one, it’s mostly dodge or die (except in the rare instance where you get a sparky and slick and some unavoidable damage.) Stacking is the product of limited boon range, combo fields, cleave, and melee superiority.
In short, it’s a fun combat system, but kind of stupid. At least aspiring developers playing them won’t get any ideas.
For endgame, I think stuff like dry top is good for open world pve. It would be nice to have additional quests to do, like order missions or champion assassination quests or something soloable.
I’d like to see new lvl 80 paths in the dungeons, or the insertion of bonus bosses in different pockets of the dungeon. I’d like bosses to have interesting and varied mechanics. Some to melee, some to range, some a mix. Mechanics like the positive negative mechanic in the cliff side end fight, or lupi, or even the second boss in ta story (with the poison spiders). Also, consider reducing/retuning trash and making them worth fighting. Our dungeons look extremely weird in the sense that the goal is to fight as little as possible. It makes sense given the reward structure, but it’s odd.
Add new skins as a reward for tokens, and allow us to use tokens on other things. It would be nice if things like Aetherpath weapons could be bought with tokens (perhaps in conjunction with a 100% drop account bound item from clockheart). Finally, consider exploring guild type raid content centered around the lower end (10?), and allow this to scale. Keep it instanced, or locked off, like a guild puzzle. Heck, add raid dungeon varieties of the puzzles, because those environments are really cool. And don’t make it so tough that nobody wants to play it. Have a variety, let everyone get their fill of ‘tougher’ content.
Side note, things like marionette, tower of nightmares, scarlet prime, would make lovely ‘raid’ style content.
(edited by Mizenhauer.6713)
Anet has implemented some quasi endgame raid style content in the form of teq and wurm. If they were behind a portal, you pretty much have an onyxia. Maybe that is the better style for a gw2 raid, rather than the full blown dungeon experience (though that would be cool).
Even dungeon additions could serve as endgame content. I know Anet has zero plans for new dungeons at the moment. But next time you’re in a 5 man, and everyone leaves at the end, take a walk around. There are so many possibilities for different paths, and places to put different bosses.
It just really sucks that we haven’t gotten a lot of challenging small group content. I know molten and aether blade came in. While I appreciate their return as fractured fractals, it would have been nice to just have them as one path dungeons. It’s not like every dungeon needs an awesome story and cutscenes (I love you aetherpath, but you’re a pain the butt sometimes.) It just needs some cool bosses, very limited puzzling (save it for guilds), a moderate amount of trash that is worth engaging, and a fair gold reward, plus standard poo.
The combat system is great. Shadow dragon was fun. I didn’t think it was easy on challenge mode. He would make a lovely encounter scaled accordingly, and perhaps with additional mechanics.
Frankly raids would be better without the treadmill. I really loved wow and the raids, but never liked how the gear upgrades made prior raids pointless, save for small group fun. That was alleviated somewhat by their introduction of a wardrobe equivalent, breathing some life and purpose into those dusty raids. But it was still trivialized by virtue of stat increases. That can only happen to a certain extent here (assuming ascended is the end, but I wouldn’t be surprised if jewel crafters are eventually given the task of crafting infusions as a tiny bit of vertical progression). Here, a raid couldn’t die. It would, at worst, become something g tk be blown through, like the dungeons here. I’m very curious about these ai changes that have been worked on. Learning the boss dance is fun, but it would be interesting if the bosses were able to respond accordingly.
Those guild puzzles look perfect for an endgame ‘test’. At least in layout, they are pretty grand. I think part of the problem is that people assume endgame means gear treadmill. While that’s the norm elsewhere, I cannot imagine that it’s irreplaceable. Gw2 rewards you with poo, always. I don’t see why this would be any different in an endgame arena. The lack of this kind of content is kind of odd, at least to me and my friends (who left long ago and make fun of my mmo of choice). But it is what it is. Instanced content no longer seems to be anet’s strog suit, which is a surprising departure from gw1. Then again, open world content doesn’t seem to be their strong suit either. But I still have fun. Complaining about endgame is actually pretty endgame.
Watching it is not the same as participating in it. But dang it, a raid and this combat system could be so beautiful. Just a sample. Google more encounters if you want. I haven’t seen much of wildstar’s raids, not sure if they have traditional tanks and whatnot. But I suppose that would be the kind of model to follow.
There is only one event in this game that made me feel what I used to feel…Marionette. Not because she was hard, but because she was good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7ssn3bUxHE
It actually looks kind of epic.
I hear the sounds of the warlord’s drums. Follow them to a better land. Let this one lay fragmented.
You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave. The game has been revealed as the polished kitten it is, but there may be hope. Come back every now and again for a spoonful of skritt.
Define End Game content.
I believe the traditional mmorpg understanding of endgame means raid dungeons/raid encounters. I’m sure spvp or wvw can be seen as endgame in the sense that pve has been “exhausted.” And vice verse for pvp players. I get that a lot of people are not particularly good at guild wars 2 (and perhaps games in general.) I also realize that these are the people that most likely give you the green, so you have to cater to them, or you close.
Balancing is the tough part. That’s why I never understood why open world encounters like Tequatl and Wurm are there. I realize it is far cheaper to produce that type of content than specialized raids geared towards tight groups of good players (even though you could always maintain some sort of difficulty switch.) It’s just an entirely different kind of flying, altogether!
I thought combo fields were getting DR, as in no stacking beyond the initial boost, just refreshing.
Suggestion #1 for future “raid” like bosses – make them instanced.
It’s a misconception that making bosses instanced somehow makes them less accessible. It’s the opposite.
Currently I have to plan few days in advance and spend around an hour just preparing.
If Tequatl and Wutm events would have been instanced, they would be played much more than they are now.
Yeah I agree. And preferably tuned for a reasonably sized group. I don’t know what that is, but I’ll wager 10 to 40. Taco is now played all the time though. Wurm is wurm, It certainly requires coordination, knowledge of play, and eyesight. But I dunno, it just doesn’t feel as satisfying to me as some encounters in other games. Plant dragon was cool. Not hard, but I suppose of the right difficulty for the open world.
Definitely liked marionette though. That’s the ‘raidiest’ I’ve ever seen the game. Some standard gw2 Zerg mixed with entertaining small group play. You ran the risk of being dealt a terrible group that ruined it for all, but I liked it. The open world is wonderful. It really is. But a boss out there…well I’m just not sure how one could match up to one behind a swirling portal.