Guild Wars 2

As someone who has been doing daily T4 for a while now and previously climbed through from level 50 to 100 fractal by fractal it is really obnoxious to sign on and have your AR knocked off. And then basically be told go spend your money on the market.
There was a lot of time, effort, and gold put into hitting 150+ AR (I play guard main) and to have it wiped away with no ready exchange to make me level 100 ready again is a real slap in the face.
Thank you for rewarding the players who play your content in such a fashion.

I’d like official word as well.
I’d also like an estimate on how many people will be required to clear the guild hall, as this battle may not be doable by small guilds except with external help?

@Aidenwolf I’m not saying that the lack of content argument isn’t a valid reason not to pre-purchase or buy the expansion, I’m just saying that this is a very highly subjective topic and the threshold of “enough content for price” is an extremely moving target.
Also, no matter what the price is everyone gets the same expansion, there is no difference between a new account and an existing account when it comes to what is contained in the expansion.

@Manasa Devi I personally think they would have had a lot less scrutiny and controversy on their hands if they had included the character slot at the Standard price point. I think the lack of a character slot and the ambiguous language regarding the inclusion of the core game are what tipped off this kittenstorm for most of the people here.
Clearly stating that the core was included ONLY for new accounts and including the character slot would likely have prevented a lot of his debacle.
Granted, you would still likely have the debate about price vs. content (that was going to happen no matter what, especially with a pre-purchase with so little information yet out).
You would still have the argument over the FAQ change, though due to the lower amount of scrutiny probably a much smaller segment of the community would be aware of it or citing it as an issue.

I think the price + inclusion of core + lack of character slot put them under the microscope.
I think the FAQ change and lack of clarity regarding inclusion of the core game severely fanned the embers into a raging flame.

I for one am interested to see if they are willing to, and how well they can, walk back this kittenstorm and repair their relationship with a large segment of the community that I think we can all agree is a lot less trusting of ArenaNet than they were a week ago.

Duke Darkwood.4237:

Mooncaller, your post is way too long to quote and leave room for the rest of what I need to say, so let me just say this: I agree with most of your sentiments despite being on the opposite side of the issue (as I intend to get one of the upper versions anyway, and forfeit my right to complain about the cost). I do feel that the Standard package is a raw deal for those precise reasons.

My wife and I are both likely to buy the Ultimate as well.
But instead of just ordering the lack of a character slot at the Standard level gave me pause, which led me to the FAQ, which led me to the forums. And in the end I learned about other issues (like the language on the order page and the lack of discount to players who bought under the encouragement of the stealthily changed FAQ).
Now instead of handing our money over we’re being a lot more cautious, reading content updates, and very interested in how this kittenstorm is resolved.

I think giving players a reason to hesitate was a very foolish idea. (Granted the “not enough content” crowd would have possibly existed at any price point other than free, but those arguments are highly subjective and not really worth discussing.)

Under the current pricing I would need to buy a character slot to play the new profession if I bought Standard. This smells of nickle and diming / money grabbing and so now it has made me a lot more interested in and cautious about what the expansion will contain. But, neither my wife or I would have paused or even blinked about dropping $100 each when the pre-purchase was announced had the character slot been included at all price points.

I played GW1, all its expansions / standalone add-ons, and pre-purchased GW2. I could rightfully be called a “fanboy”. But given reason to pause / hesitate I now have more doubt in the product than I did before and so I am being far more cautious with ArenaNet going forward.

Nokaru.7831:

morrolan.9608:

OP you are spot on, well said. Entitlement has become a crutch to use against any critical argument and it doesn’t hold here.

Just like how “morals” and “justice” have become the crutch of people trying to make mountains out of molehills.

Morals and justice are BS arguments here.

There are objective issues at play.

1)
$50 USD buys new player / new account 5 character slots, GW2, GW2:HoT, one bank slot
$50 USD buys existing player / existing account GW2:HoT
(I’m not discussing the merits of this approach, simply stating what the pruchase includes based upon whether the individual is making the purchase for a new account or an existing one.)

2)
GW2’s own FAQ, announcements, and hype said that GW2:HoT would require the purchase of the GW2 core game. They also used promotions and sales to increase sales of the core game (we’ll assume some sales went to people who were interested in buying the expansion and wanting to be ready, and we know from forum posts that some accounts were purchased by current players for friends, also we know there was a lot of outreach from players to friends to join in the game).
The language was changed on the FAQ with the announcement of pre-purchase availability that the core GW2 game would be included in the GW2:HoT purchase.
Some recent purchasers feel like this was false advertising / unfair considering the information previously put out in the FAQ.
The solution provided thus far has been to offer a full refund of GW2 purchase price if and only if you bought the game through http://buy.guildwars2.com, it was in the last 30 days, and on the condition that the account created is terminated. No refund is offered for any gem purchases made.
(I’m not discussing the merits of this approach, simply stating that this has occurred, and that these are the solutions provided in screenshots of message exchanges in service tickets.)

3)
The sales page for GW2:HoT states the following when ordering the Standard edition of the game: “Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)”
When one scroll over the Standard option on the sales page it says this: “A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.”
This language is ambiguous as to what purchase of GW2:HoT includes and could run afoul of local false advertising statues because…
On the forums and in answer to service tickets by users asking where their "and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.” is at people have been told that GW2:HoT only includes a copy of the core game for new accounts. This position is not published on the sales page, in the FAQ, in the Terms of Sale or in the Privacy Policy.
(Again, not commenting on the merits or legality of such an approach, simply pointing out and summarizing that the issue exists.)

In my opinion any discussions / complaints regarding content and the value thereof are and will always be subjective. This is an individual call, and how steep or reasonable the price is will be a matter of personal opinion.

That being said I’d love for you to give a clear and concise response on how taking issue with points 1), 2), and 3) have anything to do with “entitlement”, “being spoiled”, “morals”, or “justice”.

The Inherent Flaw in the Entitlement Argument

There seem to be two big veins to this argument, one being that those players who have bought the game earlier got two to three years worth of updates and increased content for “free”. The other is that gem purchasers made by players have nothing to do with any entitlement to future discount, content, or features in an expansion.

The “free” content people speak of are the updates, balancing, living story, and so on.

I would have to say you’re highly naive if you think any of this was done as a “reward” or for the love of the players.
GW2 contains a gem store, a mechanism for converting cash into usable in-game currency. In order to sustain a steady income stream from the gem store this meant that the game had to remain fun, balanced, interesting, and replayable / have playable additions. Otherwise the game would quickly have lost very substantial amounts of its population to other games (which, it likely already has).
But, all of this is economically motivated, the content is not “free” it is developed and rolled out in a calculated attempt to maintain a steady income stream through the gem store. If ArenaNet was operating at a loss staff would have been cut and this content would not be developed. No game / company is immune to economics.

And yes ArenaNet did not force anyone to buy gems. No one was required to. But, it would be disengenuous to say the game was not designed to encourage gem purchases. For example, the game comes with eight professions and five character slots, for any player that wants to try / create one of each profession that is an additional $30 USD purchase during their time playing a game. New accounts come with a single bank slot, each expanded tab is an additional $7.50 USD. New character come with 5 bag slots, any expansion to this is an additional $5 USD. Unlimited harvestin / logging / mining tools cost $12.50 USD currently. Now, yes, if you farm or dungeon like mad you might make enough gold to satisfy all your gem needs, but my guess is most people do buy gems.

For example, my wife and I probably each spend $20-$30 USD on gems every three months or so. This meens that the revenue stream from us is equivalent to a $6.66 – $10 per month subscription fee.

Simply put you cannot discount the value of this revenue stream when discussing any additions to content so far. There may be players who have never spent any money on gems, which was their choice (and I’m not criticizing that) but any content additions and updates since the release of this game have all been bought, paid for, and subsidized by the player base’s use of the gem store and the revenue stream that it established.

Arguing otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.

There seem to be two big veins to this argument, one being that those players who have bought the game earlier got two to three years worth of updates and increased content for “free”. The other is that gem purchasers made by players have nothing to do with any entitlement to future discount, content, or features in an expansion.

The “free” content people speak of are the updates, balancing, living story, and so on.

I would have to say you’re highly naive if you think any of this was done as a “reward” or for the love of the players.
GW2 contains a gem store, a mechanism for converting cash into usable in-game currency. In order to sustain a steady income stream from the gem store this meant that the game had to remain fun, balanced, interesting, and replayable / have playable additions. Otherwise the game would quickly have lost very substantial amounts of its population to other games (which, it likely already has).
But, all of this is economically motivated, the content is not “free” it is developed and rolled out in a calculated attempt to maintain a steady income stream through the gem store. If ArenaNet was operating at a loss staff would have been cut and this content would not be developed. No game / company is immune to economics.

And yes ArenaNet did not force anyone to buy gems. No one was required to. But, it would be disengenuous to say the game was not designed to encourage gem purchases. For example, the game comes with eight professions and five character slots, for any player that wants to try / create one of each profession that is an additional $30 USD purchase during their time playing a game. New accounts come with a single bank slot, each expanded tab is an additional $7.50 USD. New character come with 5 bag slots, any expansion to this is an additional $5 USD. Unlimited harvestin / logging / mining tools cost $12.50 USD currently. Now, yes, if you farm or dungeon like mad you might make enough gold to satisfy all your gem needs, but my guess is most people do buy gems.

For example, my wife and I probably each spend $20-$30 USD on gems every three months or so. This meens that the revenue stream from us is equivalent to a $6.66 – $10 per month subscription fee.

Simply put you cannot discount the value of this revenue stream when discussing any additions to content so far. There may be players who have never spent any money on gems, which was their choice (and I’m not criticizing that) but any content additions and updates since the release of this game have all been bought, paid for, and subsidized by the player base’s use of the gem store and the revenue stream that it established.

Arguing otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.

Wolfheart.1879:

matrix seishin.5312:

mrstealth.6701:

I decided to show the information from the HoT pre-purchase page and FAQ to my mother, who has been done work in the main offices wholesalers and retailers for over 30 years. Everything from a billing clerk to now running her own business.

Her reaction to the information on the HoT per-purchase page was confusion because of the lack of clarity. And the reaction to the actual facts of who does/doesn’t get the core was simply “that’s illegal”.

It certainly wasn’t a surprise to me, as I feel the same way. I do have some knowledge of the subject from working with her in recent years, but not decades of experience.

I wouldn’t say “illegal”, I would say “fine use of a loop-hole”.

Indeed. I can’t imagine for a second that their legal team would allow them to walk into a seemingly obvious legal cesspit. Could be the case, but I doubt it. That said, if the FAQ and prepurchase page do not mention what they have since clarified here, then that is indeed dicey and ambiguous. Many of the problems are caused by things being unintentionally taken in several ways.

I’m more towards the view that what is being done here is morally wrong (if such labels can be applied to a “mere game”, perhaps a softer way of wording is better but not sure of what) than legally wrong.

I see one flaw in this argument.
One would think their marketing team / pricing team wouldn’t let something like this whole kittenstorm occur and would have carefully researched / discussed this with the player base before having something blow up in their face like this (especially considering the bad press this is now receiving throughout the gaming world).

I’d say there is some mismanagement occurring up top, who knows whether legal was consulted, listened to, involved, or botched up as bad as marketing?

The Inherent Flaw in the Entitlement Argument

There seem to be two big veins to this argument, one being that those players who have bought the game earlier got two to three years worth of updates and increased content for “free”. The other is that gem purchasers made by players have nothing to do with any entitlement to future discount, content, or features in an expansion.

The “free” content people speak of are the updates, balancing, living story, and so on.

I would have to say you’re highly naive if you think any of this was done as a “reward” or for the love of the players.
GW2 contains a gem store, a mechanism for converting cash into usable in-game currency. In order to sustain a steady income stream from the gem store this meant that the game had to remain fun, balanced, interesting, and replayable / have playable additions. Otherwise the game would quickly have lost very substantial amounts of its population to other games (which, it likely already has).
But, all of this is economically motivated, the content is not “free” it is developed and rolled out in a calculated attempt to maintain a steady income stream through the gem store. If ArenaNet was operating at a loss staff would have been cut and this content would not be developed. No game / company is immune to economics.

And yes ArenaNet did not force anyone to buy gems. No one was required to. But, it would be disengenuous to say the game was not designed to encourage gem purchases. For example, the game comes with eight professions and five character slots, for any player that wants to try / create one of each profession that is an additional $30 USD purchase during their time playing a game. New accounts come with a single bank slot, each expanded tab is an additional $7.50 USD. New character come with 5 bag slots, any expansion to this is an additional $5 USD. Unlimited harvestin / logging / mining tools cost $12.50 USD currently. Now, yes, if you farm or dungeon like mad you might make enough gold to satisfy all your gem needs, but my guess is most people do buy gems.

For example, my wife and I probably each spend $20-$30 USD on gems every three months or so. This meens that the revenue stream from us is equivalent to a $6.66 – $10 per month subscription fee.

Simply put you cannot discount the value of this revenue stream when discussing any additions to content so far. There may be players who have never spent any money on gems, which was their choice (and I’m not criticizing that) but any content additions and updates since the release of this game have all been bought, paid for, and subsidized by the player base’s use of the gem store and the revenue stream that it established.

Arguing otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Unsolicited-Legal-Advice-to-A-Net-NCSoft/first#post5177136
I think it’s cute that this thread got closed. May have been uncomfortable to leave open I guess.

BrotherBelial.3094:

It dose say for new players. And this is what some of the kitten storm is about.

It does? Where?
Please find, quote, and screen shot the unambiguous language where it says “core game for new players” or equivalent.
Because I’ve been through the sales page, through the FAQ, through the Privacy Agreement, and through the Terms of Sale and it’s not anywhere in there about “core game for new players”.

Daddar.5971:

Here’s some relevant information ,for those who actually give a kitten: http://www.virtualpolicy.net/_Downloads/Documents/tVPN_WhitePaper-Virtual_Items_&_Public_Policy.pdf

Do you have a working link, I’d like to read the article.
Though, I’m not sure that virtualpolicy.net is a source for binding precedent (as opposed to a .gov source or case law). But I’m a nerd and I like to learn.

RabbitUp.8294:

A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.

There are 2 main ways to read this:

1. This is a bundle that includes 2 items: a game code, and the GW2 core game

A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion

-and-

the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game

2. This is a single game code that includes 2 items, one of which offers a choice between 2 options

A game serial code for:

• account creation -or- upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion
• the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.

This.
The point being that the language is ambiguous.
As khani.4786 pointed out above, she has had policy told to her in a service ticket.
I believe that official policy has been stated in this forum by a mod / ArenaNet personnel.

I just think that the sales page and FAQ should be changed so that they unambiguously match what is being stated in response to forum posts / service tickets.

If there was no ambiguity then the question would not have been asked whether the HoT expansion includes a copy of the core for all purchasers and Khani would not have their service ticket.

My only legal advice here thus far has been to eliminate that ambiguity and have wording at location X explicitly match policy as put forth in locations Y and Z, where Y and Z are not associated with the sales page or FAQ (the places a reasonable person is likely to look to determine what they are purchasing.

Also, my legal advice isn’t directed to the user base, it is to the company, as the website FAQ and Shop are the places that don’t quite have all their ducks in a row.

Again, this is not to encourage, incite, promote, or propose a lawsuit, it is simply to point out a latent ambiguity in the hopes that it gets corrected.

I was also wondering about this and asked about it during the live Twitch Point of Interest presentation (as did many others) today and it went unanswered.
It would be nice to know how many guildies are expected to be needed to acquire a guild hall.

https://buy.guildwars2.com/store/defaults/en_US/DisplayDRTermsAndConditionsPage/eCommerceProvider.Digital+River%2C+Inc. this does not include any language regarding what is in the package or seemingly a right to modify what is being sold (in terms of packaging).
It does provide that those who click “buy” are providing an offer to purchase that they the merchant have a right to reject. But once they accept it (i.e. you get your email with your key or w/e) it has been an accepted binding agreement.
They also reserve the right to arbitration (usually does not hold up in class action suits as class action suits are generally held before a Federal District Court and have special rules that apply in determining whether or not a class exists, and thereby whether or not the suit can proceed).

https://buy.guildwars2.com/store/defaults/en_US/DisplayDRPrivacyPolicyPage/eCommerceProvider.Digital+River%2C+Inc. this also does not include a right to modify the package being delivered.

So, the following ambiguities still exist:
“Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion (includes Guild Wars 2 core game)” indicates that buying the expansion include the core game.
And “A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.” the placement of the “or” and “and” in this in addition to the prior quoted statement leave a latent ambiguity.

The FAQ’s being subject to change does not actually change the purchase rights / contract for purchasers under the prior FAQ. You would technically need a statement in there from the outset saying “sales and packaging subject to change” probably “without notice” and even then you might run risk of violating individual state’s contract laws. It’s murkier water than you want to be in.

As for any law suit not having a chance, I can’t speak to that. As stated there is no binding precedent on this type of thing. As a game developer / seller I wouldn’t want to be the one that A) pays the legal battle to settle the precedent, B) risk that precedent coming out against me, and C) having my name dragged through the legal mud and press that such a suit would entail. There’d be a lot of case law research, and possibly costly discovery, before anyone in such a suit would say “any lawsuit has a kitten’s chance in Orr of success” as this is, at least to my knowledge, uncharted territory. (Granted, if I am wrong and there is solid legal precedent to the contrary that anyone is privy to and I am not, I’d love it if someone would cite a case, this topic has become a lot more interesting to me in the last few days.)

There is perhaps one out contained here: https://buy.guildwars2.com/store/defaults/en_US/DisplayDRTermsAndConditionsPage/eCommerceProvider.Digital+River%2C+Inc.
1.3 ALL ORDERS ARE SUBJECT TO YOUR CONSENT TO ANY APPLICABLE LICENSE AGREEMENT OR USAGE TERMS IS DELIVERED WITH, INCLUDED IN, OR PRESENTED IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR PRODUCT OR DR SERVICE. If you do not agree to the license or usage terms once you see them, do not accept them and contact customer service.

The problem with this out is that somewhere before you receive and accept / apply your license there would need to be notification that your license is ONLY for expansion and not expansion and included core (like all sales documentation / FAQ). As I have not yet purchased expansion, I can’t speak to that, maybe some who have and read the agreement can. In such a case I would assume that failure to accept such a term IF included and customer support contacted would result in a full refund.

In terms of my post and user conduct:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/forum-code-of-conduct/
“Do not post legal action threads. Using the forums or PMs to encourage, promote, endorse, or incite any kind of legal action against the company or any individual is strictly prohibited. Such content will be removed, and the author’s posting privileges will be permanently revoked.”

As stated, I am not taking legal action, I am not encouraging other to take legal action, I have no plans to start, incite, or otherwise represent anyone in legal action.
I am simply bringing up that the sales documentation has ambiguities, these ambiguities have led to service tickets (one user, for example, was discussing their exasperation with it during today’s Twitch presentation of Points of Interest) and that if I were in charge of the FAQ / sales documentation I would clarify them so as to eliminate those ambiguities.

I am a lawyer, that’s why I brought it up.
Always in contracts it is best to be explicit and safe than vague and sorry.

The scroll over on Basic does include: “A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.” which is still ambiguous based upon the placements of the “or” and “and” in that.
It’s ambiguous enough that there are threads here where people have filed complaints because they did not receive their included Guild Wars 2 core game.
I would probably change the scroll over on basic to read: “A game serial code for account creation including the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game and the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion; or an upgrade for an existing account including the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion.” in order to be clear as to what is being offered and sold.

papry.8096:

But it’s a FREE BONUS not a purchase, kitten.

FAQ is perfectly clear: It’s include in it. They don’t change the FAQ….

Please find, post, show, language on purchase page or the FAQs that support this position.
The scroll over on Basic does include: “A game serial code for account creation or upgrade for the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion and the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game.” which is still ambiguous based upon the placements of the “or” and “and” in that.
It’s ambiguous enough that there are threads here where people have filed complaints because they did not receive their included Guild Wars 2 core game.
I would probably change the scroll over on basic to read: “A game serial code for account creation including the award winning Guild Wars 2 core game and the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion; or an upgrade for an existing account including the Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion.” in order to be clear as to what is being offered and sold.

There’s an issue of the purchase page stating: “Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)”
No mention here (https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/94582027-Heart-of-Thorns-Pre-Purchase-FAQ) that this does not include a new copy of core for a returning customer.
No mention here (https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/94582027-Heart-of-Thorns-Pre-Purchase-FAQ) that this does not include a new copy of core for a returning customer.
Under US law the offer to purchase is an open purchase offer available to any member of the public who so chooses to accept by paying the provider. Once the money has been paid creating a contract as goods / compensation have been exchanged (key to purchaser, money to provider). The problem is as far as I have been able to see, except buried in some unhappy posts in this forum the Expansion is being offered on Pre-Purchase with, and only with, the core game included BUT not EXPLICITLY stating anywhere that the purchase of the expansion does not include a copy of the core game if the purchase is used on an existing account.
I would strongly urge that the language is changed on the appropriate shop and FAQ pages.
The fact that this does not include core for returning customer only seems to be on the forum / stated in service ticket responses where people asked for their new second account.
From a legal contract perspective I would change this: “Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)” to "Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game for new accounts created with this purchase) [emphasis added] ASAP. Under contract ArenaNet is offering Core + Expansion to every purchaser and only delivering Expansion to existing users. This opens them up to a class action law suit in the US, probably in Europe too considering the consumer protections.

This is not to be construed as a threat, a statement of filing suit, or anything else. But someone somewhere in the company should be aware that the way it currently reads is leaving NCSoft / ArenaNet open to a potential law suit or possible a class action law suit.
If I were part of the legal council for this company and aware of this I would immediately seek to rectify and mitigate this risk.

Character slot or 800-1000 gems at the Basic price point would likely have prevented most of this assuming it was given when account code is added to existing account, while new accounts get the standard 5 character slots + bank slot.

There is still the problem of the FAQ change (core game required for expansion vs. core game included with expansion).
That problem is exacerbated by the refund offered which includes a termination of your account and non-refund of gem purchases according to threads / screen shots on Reddit.

Then there’s also the issue of the purchase page stating: “Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)”
No mention here (https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/94582027-Heart-of-Thorns-Pre-Purchase-FAQ) that this does not include a new copy of core for a returning customer.
No mention here (https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/94582027-Heart-of-Thorns-Pre-Purchase-FAQ) that this does not include a new copy of core for a returning customer.
The fact that this does not include core for returning customer only seems to be on the forum / stated in service ticket responses where people asked for their new second account.
From a legal contract perspective I would change this: “Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)” to "Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game for new accounts created with this purchase) [emphasis added] ASAP. Under contract ArenaNet is offering Core + Expansion to every purchaser and only delivering Expansion to existing users. This opens them up to a class action law suit in the US, probably in Europe too considering the consumer protections.

And because of all the controversies around this pre-purchase pricing in addition to the $50 price tag and the resulting malcontent from a large section of the community they have now vastly increased the level of scrutiny people are giving to the expansion in terms of content and perceived value.
Essentially this snafu and lack of character slot or 800-1000 gems at the Basic price point for existing players / inclusion of core for new players has brought this all to light in the worse way possible and has likely cost untold thousands of dollars in pre-purchases and who knows how much in ultimate sales (both to returning and new customers).

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bigger marketing snafu on an expansion.

Character slot or 800-1000 gems at the Basic price point would likely have prevented most of this assuming it was given when account code is added to existing account, while new accounts get the standard 5 character slots + bank slot.

There is still the problem of the FAQ change (core game required for expansion vs. core game included with expansion).
That problem is exacerbated by the refund offered which includes a termination of your account and non-refund of gem purchases according to threads / screen shots on Reddit.

Then there’s also the issue of the purchase page stating: “Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)”
No mention here (https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/94582027-Heart-of-Thorns-Pre-Purchase-FAQ) that this does not include a new copy of core for a returning customer.
No mention here (https://help.guildwars2.com/entries/94582027-Heart-of-Thorns-Pre-Purchase-FAQ) that this does not include a new copy of core for a returning customer.
The fact that this does not include core for returning customer only seems to be on the forum / stated in service ticket responses where people asked for their new second account.
From a legal contract perspective I would change this: “Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game)” to "Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns expansion(includes Guild Wars 2 core game for new accounts created with this purchase) [emphasis added] ASAP. Under contract ArenaNet is offering Core + Expansion to every purchaser and only delivering Expansion to existing users. This opens them up to a class action law suit in the US, probably in Europe too considering the consumer protections.

And because of all the controversies around this pre-purchase pricing in addition to the $50 price tag and the resulting malcontent from a large section of the community they have now vastly increased the level of scrutiny people are giving to the expansion in terms of content and perceived value.
Essentially this snafu and lack of character slot or 800-1000 gems at the Basic price point for existing players / inclusion of core for new players has brought this all to light in the worse way possible and has likely cost untold thousands of dollars in pre-purchases and who knows how much in ultimate sales (both to returning and new customers).

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bigger marketing snafu on an expansion.

It would be cool if that ascended tweak could be scaled throughout the armor / weapon set (appropriately cheaper for lower tier armors) as a way to allow new players to change their armor as they learn new things about the game rather than crafting / buying new. It could enhance / soften the new player experience.

I remember being a new player, which there will be an influx of with the expansion release and as a new player getting that first set of exotic for your character was hard, but chances are new players will want to catch up into the new content as fast as possible.

SoPP.7034:

I was a keen pre-purchaser right up until pre-purchase was announced and then I wasn’t.

What happen? I hesitated…..

Reading some people’s posts I’ve seen the veteran ‘entitlement’ post thrown around. I did wonder, was that me, was I being to entitled? Being a 3 day head start Gw2 player.
I look at others posts: it’s to expensive, there’s no character slot etc, edited FAQ was that it?

Sure, some of those posts perhaps helped me to rationalize my initial feelings. But the fact was I hesitated, I went to purchase and then didn’t. In retrospect its because none of the pre-purchases ‘fit’.

The problem was synergy, or lack thereof. I got held up over the core game getting bundled. Wait, what? Let me explain.

Some investigation showed that I couldn’t separate the core game and the HoT release. I mean if I could bundle HoT with my main and have a 2nd account as a mule I could work with that. But no. Even with the subsequent posts explaining the core was getting bundled free it didn’t matter. The momentum was lost, I hesitated. Now I’m reading about how much it costs, with no extra character slot and veteran entitled players.

The process went like this:
I saw the standard edition and thought ok maybe that, but I already have the core game. So it wasn’t that one. Next!
Deluxe, maybe this one? Extra slot awesome but again the core game which i didn’t need.
The gems were ok for the ultimate edition but same thing.

It’s kind of amusing to realize I got held up over something that perhaps if it had been reworded or presented to me in a different way I would have pre-purchased.

But I didn’t and the best explanation I can give was because it didn’t ‘fit’. Then of course I started reading the forums (big mistake). Was it to expensive? Why no character slot? Hesitation grew into doubt.

I mean I’ll still get HoT at some point most likely, I’m an avid GW2 player but my attitude has changed. I went from 100% pre-purchse to ‘when I get round to it’. I’m not trying to argue that my perspective is ‘logical’ other than this why I didn’t pre-purchase despite saying I would….

Perhaps some people will still say it’s my problem, which I guess it is, but I don’t know what to say other than I REALLY wanted to pre-purchase, but then stopped because it didn’t ‘fit’.

The only thing I can say is that marketing REALLY needs to consider the definition of ‘barriers’ because that’s what I hit (real or imagined) and would have pre-purchased otherwise.

This.
For me it wasn’t just the inclusion of the core that made me pause but the inclusion of the core AND the lack of a character slot at Basic.
I was all for buying the pre-order and justifying the $100 Ultimate to my wife (I mean, I still need to buy two more character slots for the professions I haven’t made yet, and I plan on playing a long time, so this isn’t a terrible deal).
But I saw the way the packaging was done, felt it wasn’t right, went through the FAQ, still didn’t find what I was looking for, and ended up in this quagmire.

To me this is a horrible marketing fail.
If Basic had included a character slot there would have been $150 – $200 in sales from my wife and I that night.
Now we’re both feeling cautious, wanting to see what the response is to the generally negative community response, see reviews of the expansion, and so on.
From reading the general initial reason for pause / hesitation from the community was the lack of a character slot at the Basic price point. Why as a marketing decision would you want to provide a basis for doubt from your current user basis from handing you money?

Aidenwolf.5964:

Anet included GW2 in HoT for new players to entice them to visit Tyria which makes sense. New players likely would be turned off by buying 2 full games to try out HoT. They don’t want players separated by a Paywall in GW2 which would divide the Player Base and as LS3 (or LS4 really as HoT is LS3) will certainly be located in the HoT map.

Where Anet made a serious error imo and the opinion of many others is they decided to gouge the current players just that little bit extra by not including a character slot or two as they did in every expansion in GW save EOTN with the base HoT expansion. I mean seriously, there is zero incentive for a current player to pre purchase the base package.

What this decision has led to is a bit of a paradox considering their intentions were unity of the Player Base, as “veteran” player I won’t be buying the expansion as it is offered currently and as I see no signs that Anet will change their minds (which they are entitled not to, it is their game) I will be locked out behind a Paywall after buying a collector’s edition of GW2 and a new player won’t be. This certainly isn’t Anet’s intention and I’m sure they would love for everyone to join in the fun, but I’m a customer and they’re a business not my friends, and I’m unhappy paying the same and getting less than a new player.

I still plan on playing GW2 and fighting all your revenants with my old school non mastery toons and enjoying the game I paid $150 for that I can play forever while Anet gives that game away for free to the new guys. If the game goes on sale I’ll snatch it up but until then as a consumer I’ll play what I’ve already paid for until they turn the servers off.

The real problem with this pricing at least for the existing player is that at the Basic level it appears that you need to spend $10 more for a character slot (because having access to the new profession is important to a lot of people) or upgrade to $75++ to get one with a slot (and some bonuses).
But this seems extremely money grabby when some but not a lot of new playable content has been made known especially at kitten base price point.

Furthermore, the controversy regarding the FAQ change, and the seemingly terminte account and refund rather than paying the difference for the expansion to the newer players who bought into GW2 because it was stated that the base game was required for the expansion only to have this change out from under them. Now, you can terminate your old account (losing gem purchases, any progress made, friends list, and so on in the process) or you can pay full price for the expansion and add it to your relatively new account and maintain your old progress.

Tired and not sure what I’m writing at this point, but this seems like a bit of a downer of a deal for anyone but the prospective player, and then again, seeing the uproar this is causing I might shy away if I were a potential buyer.

$50 USD Basic buys…
New player: Guild Wars 2 (includes five character slots and at least one bank slot), GW2: Heart of Thorns expansion
Existing player: GW2: Heart of Thorns expansion

There is apparently no way to sever the core game from the purchase of the expansion if you are an existing player. If you are an existing player you are leaving a new account on the table (and its attendant 5 character slots / 1 bank slot).
If you were to buy 5 character slots and 1 bank slot as upgrade from the gem store to your existing account this has a ~4600 gem value, or, $57.50 USD value.
Or if you just look at cost of the core game, you are leaving roughly $40 USD on table (though only $10-$20 USD during the deep discounts).

Furthermore, for those of you who have been following the Reddit threads that discuss people who bought the game over the past few months on the reliance of the old GW2: HoT FAQ which stated GW2 was needed in order to play HoT (and therefore leading to many purchases of GW2 over the past few months). These purchasers are now being told that IF they bought within the last 30 days then they are entitled to a refund. The refund process means deletion of the account, the email associated with the account are to be rendered unusable, it can disrupt / permanently destroy linking to GW1 accounts, and no gem purchases, items, gold, or so on will exist once refund is completed and account is terminated. But, if you meet and like those criteria then you do have the option of taking that refund and purchasing GW2 & GW2: Heart of Thorns at the new price point.

Also, it should be stated that the GW2: HoT FAQ was edited from reading that the GW2 game was necessary to play the HoT expansion to reading that a purchase of HoT now includes GW2.
So, in light of the above, I really hope you didn’t buy the game recently because the expansion was announced and the FAQ said you needed the original GW2 title, or at least if you did hopefully it was within the last 30 days and hopefully you made no gem purchases.

I just figured all this information should be available to anyone viewing this announcement.
It has caused quite a stir and otherwise riled up, what would be on a good day, a very nice gaming community for the most part,and added some new rifts to the community as well as drive off some players both old and new. What impact this has had on potential sales is unknown.

briggah.7910:

So many posts saying us veterans didn’t get anything and new players are getting the core game for free really makes me think how many of you are actually veteran players.

Us veteran players have gotten to experience all the open world events since release with new patches every few weeks. These new players won’t get all that the same way we did even if they get a “bonus” free version with buying HoT.

They won’t hear while afk’ing at the bank in LA the asura and char that say “Your face is funny”, “No, your face is funny. It’s like a little raisin”

They didn’t experience the festival events and seasoned events like we did.

They won’t see LA getting destroyed and how we fought over it while scarlet attacked it.

They won’t get to fight marionette like we did cause that is all gone and done.

They probably won’t see SAB seeing as people still riot about it to this day.

They didn’t get to farm aetherblades in zones and have tons of champs spawning.

Those are just a few examples but so many other open world events that these new players will never experience even if they do get a “Bonus” free version of the core game.

Stop being greedy and thinking its all about new players when new players will have missed out on a ton of content that is no longer available. Veterans have the memories of all that has happened since launch of this game to this date while new players will never experience those events.

With the current pricing:
New to game: $50 USD = 5 character slots, GW2, HoT, 2 bank slots
Existing player: $50 USD = HoT

Cost of new account (i.e. 5 character slots, GW2, 2 bank slots) was what, about $40 USD, but $10 USD if you got it on one of those super discounts.
Cost of 5 character slots and 2 bank slots through gem store is ~5200 gems (~$65 USD).

By objective, non-content, non-speculative metrics, as an existing player I am being asked to leave somewhere between $10 and $65 of value added account features on the table if I buy the expansion in pre-order and add it to my existing account (at ALL price points).

The chutzpa of this really rubs me, a long time GW1 player (a game where I felt very respected as a continuing player) and a long time GW2 player, leaves me feeling very disrespected.

What I find most bemusing about this whole episode is I wouldn’t have 3+ posts in this thread and others like it, weariness, worry, new found / rekindled distrust for Arena Net and everything if the $50 basic version of the HoT expansion had included a character slot.

The only reason I ended up in this quagmire is because I went to buy the expansion, I was debating which of the packages I’d get, was about to talk to my wife about which version I’d get and which she’d like, and then ended up doing a total double take and wound up in a very bad taste in my mouth because at $50 the core game is included but no character slots are included even though a new profession is being added.

I cannot speak to the value of the content being added and whether it is worth $50, $10, or $5000. The content is not completely known, I haven’t played through it yet.

With the current pricing:
New to game: $50 USD = 5 character slots, GW2, HoT, 2 bank slots
Existing player: $50 USD = HoT

Cost of new account (i.e. 5 character slots, GW2, 2 bank slots) was what, about $40 USD, but $10 USD if you got it on one of those super discounts.
Cost of 5 character slots and 2 bank slots through gem store is ~5200 gems (~$65 USD).

By objective, non-content, non-speculative metrics, as an existing player I am being asked to leave somewhere between $10 and $65 of value added account features on the table if I buy the expansion in pre-order and add it to my existing account (at ALL price points).

The chutzpa of this really rubs me, a long time GW1 player (a game where I felt very respected as a continuing player) and a long time GW2 player, leaves me feeling very disrespected.

The funny thing is I wouldn’t have noticed, blinked, or cared had the HoT Basic pre-order at $50 USD included a character slot for the new profession.

I wonder how many others wouldn’t have noticed or commented if a character slot was included at all price points?
And I therefore how how much less of a PR “kitten” storm for existing players this would have been, well, and maybe potential players, because this seems to not be trending well on Reddit either.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

• Saw the in-game thing, and was all excited.
• Saw the ultimate option had a gem discount, and was “:-O want!”
• Saw that standard didn’t come with a character slot when every previous guild wars series expansion that added classes did, and I would also be paying for a base game account I don’t get, and literally logged out of game in disgust.

This. Well, okay, so maybe I didn’t log out.
I was excited, I clicked the buy thing, went through to the page, was really confused about the lack of expansion slot on basic and the inclusion of the core game and ended up in a FAQ / forum quagmire that I’m still sifting through.

I was rather excited, about ready to drop $50, maybe $100, and talk to my wife about which purchase option she wanted. Talk about a momentum killer.

The whole Expansion / Campaign debate regarding GW1 is kind of silly. They were billed as and talked about as expansions, chapters, campaigns, and what have you (at least for Factions and Nightfall) it wasn’t until Eye of the North that expansion / campaign were actually distinguished from one another and only then to explain why there were no new classes, why there were no new missions, why there were no new character slots, and why the price was cheaper than all prior paid for additions.

For GW1 a precedent was set:
1) ~same price as full game = new classes + character slots + new missions + whole new map / standalone game
2) ~significantly reduced cost to full game = no new classes, no new missions, less map, Prophesies required

Clearly HoT does not fit in 1) or 2) perfectly as I outlined above, but for long time players / GW1 players the introduction of a new profession (since they don’t use “class”) without a character slot is unprecedented.
Also, price point and inclusion of core game makes current HoT purchase scheme as available through GuildWars2.com’s own shop mean that HoT is basically only available as a standalone game with different / additional content.

For the new player just joining us the price point includes 5 character slots and 2 bank slots (~5200 gems worth). For existing players the existing price point includes HoT, no core, no character slots, no bank slots.

As an existing customer I’d say I’m a lot less respected under this new marketing scheme than I was as an existing customer back in the GW1 days.

I see the pricing disparity as fairly objective.

A new player gets for $50 USD:
GW2
HoT
5 character slots
2 bank slots

An existing player gets for $50 USD:
HoT

Now, putting a dollar amount on GW2 / HoT can be hard, but let’s go with together or separate it is $50.

5 characters slots come out to 4000 gems at current gem store rates, or $50 USD.
2 bank slots come out to 1200 gems at current gem store rates (correct me if I’m wrong), or $65 USD.

So a new player gets $65 USD of account upgrade value included in their $50 USD purchase of GW2 / HoT while an existing player just gets HoT for $50 USD and the privilege of accessing their characters, bank slots, unlocked skins, prior gem store purchases, and account bound items. Except everything that the existing player has was already bought and payed for.

And, if you’re a long time player you’ve probably paid $$$ into the gem store already for upgrades. And you likely already have all your character slots full and may have at least one of each character, and each character you have likely has numerous soulbound items.
So, as an existing player not only do you leave $65 USD of upgrade value on the table but then if you want to play the new profession you get told that you can either buy a new character slot (800 gems / $10 USD) or you can delete an old character.

From where I sit as a long time GW1 player (and all expansions / chapters) and a long time GW2 player (since pre-release weekend) this feels like a swift kick to the gentleman’s vegetables.

It really makes me question my desire to invest more with a company (in terms of time, money, and so on) that seems to care so little about my prior investment.

I’d feel differently if:
A) core wasn’t included in $50 USD price of expansion, or
B) existing players got thrown some character slots, gems, banks slots, or a combination thereof included in their expansion considering the $65 USD worth of upgrades they are leaving on the table because they already play.

I just fail to see how this was seen as a good idea in the marketing department / board room. Clearly either no one cared about the existing player base or figured we would all just rally to the expansion.
But in terms of trying something out, I’m now contemplating whether or not to buy into and try out kitten USD expansion where no one with enough influence along the way, in terms of decision making, decided that this kind of roll out might be a bad idea.

Shows poor decision making at the highest levels. Did the same poor decision making filter down through the development process? Do I want to pay to find out?

My problem is as follows:

By including the game in $50 for new players a new player gets the expansion, 5 character slots, the original game, and 2 bank slots.

At current gem store prices five character slots and two bank slots is roughly 5200 gems or around $65 USD.

A new profession is being added, which just about everyone who has been playing will likely want to make. But, because of the way this is packaged for established players the established player has to pay an additional 800 gems / $10 USD if they want to have a slot open to play the new class, or they have to delete a character that they’ve put time / effort / possibly gems / gold into.

This is why it seems like a money grab.
The disparity between what $50 buys a new player and what $50 buys an established player is tremendous.

Now, A.Net has done expansions with new professions before, see: GW1 Factions and GW1 Nightfall.
In those instances established players paid the same price for the game as everyone else (I believe $40 back then) but got 2 new character slots for the new professions. There was no additional sting of “buy a character slot / delete a character” if you want to play the new class.

And that is why so many users feel like A.Net is giving us the two fingered salute.

I played GW1 since 2003-2004 and played through until GW2 came out. I loved it and I loved how the game evolved. I had two complete accounts (GW, GW:F, GW:N, and GW:EotN). I bought some character expansion slots and bank expansions as the game went on, it was fantastic, but it eventually got really long in the tooth and graphically irrelevant / painful. (I think I have two fully upgraded, and one less upgraded account.)
A precedent was set in that each expansion added a new class (GW:F and GW:N) and could be played standalone (new account + 4 or 6 character slots) or as an upgrade to your account and an expansion (+2 character slots). This was great because you were guaranteed slots to make a new character of the new classes.

I started GW2 with many on the pre-release weekend event. I’ve since bought expansion slots for character bags, banks, and new character slots. Some gem store items as well, so it is not like A.Net hasn’t been making money off me. I got my wife to play, similar purchases have been made.

Now we have a new expansion.
If I use the key to make a new account I’m at square one with none of my prior accomplishments, unlocks, or account bound items. But I get 4 character slots and 2 bank slots. The core game is included for free.
If I use the key to upgrade my current account I get expanded content (the quality, value, and enjoyability of which is up in the air). But, I get no character slots (even though there is a new class), I get no bank slots, I get nothing but the expansion.
I do have the ability to choose and fork over more cash in order to buy an expansion slot and other fancy items in addition to the base cost of $50.

Here’s the problem to me, and probably to a lot of the veteran players who have put in time and extra money in the form of gem purchases over the past two years.
$50 for core for expansion + 5 character slots + 2 bank slots =/= $50 for expansion and nothing else.

GW1 did a great job of smoothing this over by 1) not including the original with each expansion (but, those were standalone and this is not), and 2) giving everyone who was upgrading their account 2 character slots so that could make the new character class.

As a player with an existing account I am being asked to forego an included 5 character slots and 2 bank slots (roughly a $65 value based on the gem store, I think, in terms of character slots and bank expansions) because I already own the game with zero compensation or perk even though A.Net has made $$$ off of me over the past three years in GW2 alone, not to mention GW1. So, I’m feeling rather underwhelmed (possibly strongly discouraged) by what my $50 buys me.

Not to mention the minimal cost here is really $60 because I’ll need a character slot. Then, assuming my wife would be playing as well, we’d be looking at a minimal $120 commitment to a game that we’ve both had an up-down relationship with content wise. And it’s a $60 gamble on how good / enjoyable that added content really is.

I’m going to have to think about this a lot.
At $25-$30 I probably wouldn’t be thinking about it at all.
At $60 while leaving character slots and bank slots that I am essentially leaving on the table because I already play… I don’t know, this really sours the deal.

Yesterday I was chomping at the bit to buy the expansion.
Today I’m tired and wondering if I should just pack it up and abandon ship. I just imagine having in game friends in expansion vs. others not in expansion is going to strain those relationships or put pressure on me to buy in, and I’m just wondering how much other gaming fun I can find for my wife and I at the $120-$200 mark.

We looked up that bug, and tried multiple times. Got her killed and revived her a few times, walked her back. Unfortunately, she did not unglitch. And considering the hour, we gave up.

We shall have to do it again.

Also, not as impressive as a solo, but still fun to do with a friend. A good challenge.

So, my guildie and I decided to take on AC as a two man team, just to see if we could. We were doing great on P2 until Detha glitched in the final room.

Here are some screen shots of our fun, and sorrow…

So much for the after screen shot with the two of us and our 60 Ascalonian Tears…