Guild Wars 2

Can now the next poll question we have be whether no class stacking should be enforced like for the last couple of ESL events? You know, the obvious mandatory follow-up to the outcomes of this poll and something actually in touch with the reality of PvP.

Ragion.2831:

Trigr.6481:

Gaile Gray.6029:

A message from the PvP Team:

• Skyhammer will be added to Ranked Arena on a trial basis.
  will be keeping an eye on your feedback throughout the season.

A trial bases is an entire season? Sounds legit.

Whats wrong with that?

My biggest issues with hammer is the jump pads that mess with players movements and the ledges that cant be teleported to. Is there a chance we get better teleporting mechanics or has Anet giving up on creating a good one. At least the map is much better, can knock the effort.

For future expansions, please dont create skill mechanics the team doesnt have the abilities for. It just causes more issues that no one wants. For example, the “no valid path” madness that lasted for weeks and thief/guardian shadowstep being more reliable than Necro’s minion recall and Rev’s shadow step.

I dont know what build logic is being used for the teleports but it would be nice if something was done about it before skyhammer drops

Anti-teleport elements of terrain exist in this game for a reason.

Cannot use

Alternative Option

Strong

1200 Condition Damage, 900 Power, 900 Toughness. Not really much to say except why not try it out? Can always remove it if it proves too powerful on anything.

I think that the most important thing to remember about this soloq/duoq only ranked in Season 5 is that it is meant to be a short-term trial/test. Here is a quote from Josh Davis: “In the scenario that Season 5 as solo/duo goes well and the community decides to keep it long-term, the PvP team will look at ways to accommodate competitive team-based play.”, from this forum post:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Extended-Off-Season-and-Other-Updates .

When you have a complex system or can`t predict/model a system`s behaviour, it is good practice to “change and observe only one variable at a time, then combinations” to gain a proper understanding; it is what Anet do not do when it comes to inter-class and skill balance patches, so it is welcome to see such an approach being taken for the PvP infrastructure. The variable in this case is what type of queue, in terms of roster allowance, do the majority of PvP players prefer for rated matches.

Yes, it has been 4 years of experimentation when it comes to this issue and yes, the devs should be able to make their own decisions about this by now, based on gathered statistics and past iterations. Better late than never. Also, considering how an influx of new players was attracted into PvP by HOT and Leagues, I would rather have the devs dedicate a bit more time to go through “trial & errror” and polls when it comes to big changes, such that any proper infrastructure that gets born out of the process has unquestionable validity.

In my opinion, a proper PvP infrastructure, which would emerge somewhere down the line after the solo/duoq trial, must address the two big gaps that exist right now in the player base:

1) between people that are missing basic knowledge when it comes to PvP (rotations and/or mechanical skill) and people that are able to perform proper rotations + are mechanically capable but play in ranked instead of within teams or tournaments;

2) between capable people (rotationally and mechanically) without full teams and the ESL pro level players.

A proper tutorial system is needed in-game so people do not develop distorted views about the PvP side of the game (rotations, mechanical skill, using terrain etc.). A soloq/duoq ranked queue is a good middle ground between casual and competitive play; it can provide a proper incentive for learning PvP while maintaining fun matches, it is the proper medium for development towards higher tier play (since you must first enhance your personal mechanical skill & rotations before coordinating with a team), and it allows to best of players to rise to the top by carrying matches. The people that perform here very well have the opportunity to move forward into high tier competitive play, which is based on teams, since they will get noticed or find each other.

Tournaments and organising scrims are great resources for competitive team play indeed, but they must be integrated and supported as parts of the game. It is important that Anet itself promotes such a step for the development of players (in hierarchy, after soloq/duoq and before ESL) – a medium where people can practice the highest level of PvP play, team play, without having to organise things by themselves. The system should be the one that offers the incentive and reasons for people to want to come together to practise at high-tier, in teams, and the incentive for top teams to play as well, such that other teams have a chance to improve.

Queue times would most likely be a problem for a “Team Arena” like we had in the past, so why not introduce a system similar to professional chess, in the form of regular automated tournaments? Whatever team wants to show up shows up and if too few show up, adapt accordingly. A team gets rated (visible) based on the performance in the tournament with an ELO sort of rating system (visible, made public) and appears on a leader board of teams. Introduce decay of ratings with time. Have some sort of qualification method based on these ratings such that other teams than the current top ESL ones (which will most likely be at the top of the leaderboard if they play) can have a chance to compete for a spot in the ESL events – in place of what Guild Challenger League is now. There are ways to make this work within the game itself and it would get the top-tier play a lot more recognition.

DEATHsCLAW.1978:

Om Im.7863:

Better suggestion: People (both the necros and teammates) learn to make use of Blighter`s Boons to its fullest potential + Things such as Beyond the Veil, Life from Death, Unholy Sanctuary should be tweaked to actually be meaningful.

Then, if one wants to address the problems of certain trait lines offering too much or too little, start by solving the big discrepancies in Life Force gain + uptime when it comes to: taking/not taking Soul Reaping, taking/not taking Spectral skills, taking/not taking Spite + Reaper boon synergies.

second idea is good necro could definitely use that..

but how can teammates make use of blighters boon if I may ask? its a pure selfish trait which triggers when nec applies a boon to himself..

and by the way bligters boon is more of a bruiser trait. soldier power reaper used it before they removed that amulet. but still necro cant play bruiser by design because it dies to easily in teamfights because it cannot be supportet when needed..

kitten early mornings, forgot that Blighter`s Boon synergy with incoming boons was nerfed a while back. I didn`t trust the current tooltip; so in the meantime, I tried to test tricking it with condi conversion from allies, still doesn`t work. So that part of my statement remains only for necros maximising Blighter`s Boon potential on themselves with sigils, runes, AoE attacks.

The trait is very powerful when you are on your own if you build correctly for boon spam and fight accordingly. Personally I would like Blighter`s Boon mechanic to have a bit more depth, where allies can interact with it without being over the top, while the self benefit from it remains as a “stronger when hitting multiple foes” design (like shouts). It is difficult to achieve this within the random boon spam&share from everywhere mechanics that HOT has brought.

Now there is paladin amulet, which is arguably better for a bruiser than soldier ever was. Soldier was more of a tank amulet then a bruiser, unless you were “brusing” bad thieves. Now I suggest trying all of the above if you think necros still dies too easily in a teamfight (assuming that the teamfight was approached with proper positioning and rotations).

Up until now, necros were forced into condition builds because HOT brought a lot of potent anti-power mechanics; these have been continuously toned down since. The main condition line for necros, Corruption, does not make great synergy with any of the sustain mechanics on necro – it is just offence and some mitigation, and forces Deathly Chill as a GM in Reaper line. Of course there is Corrupter`s Fervour, but power builds can use it just as well; of course there are Spectral skills, Soul Reaping line and Blood Magic line – but power builds can use these just as well, while, on top, making room for Spite synergy with boon-related Reaper traits. The most recent (ESL) necro signet meta was intended for high amount of condis and corruptions delivered in coordinated bursts, with Blood Magic line being used primarily for plays around rezzing (Last Rites, Well of Corruption) — sustain was never the intention with this build. Las patch introduced corruption options for power specs that can compete with what that (ESL) meta on condi specs.

Better suggestion: People (both the necros and teammates) learn to make use of Blighter`s Boons to its fullest potential + Things such as Beyond the Veil, Life from Death, Unholy Sanctuary should be tweaked to actually be meaningful.

Then, if one wants to address the problems of certain trait lines offering too much or too little, start by solving the big discrepancies in Life Force gain + uptime when it comes to: taking/not taking Soul Reaping, taking/not taking Spectral skills, taking/not taking Spite + Reaper boon synergies.

Yet another prime example showcasing one of the major problems in Gw2 PvP. The deeply rooted and entangled issue of not having a proper PvP tutorial, specifically, no voice of authority that accurately describes what class roles and identities are within the PvP medium.

All the good advice people are giving in this thread, yet none of it is present or even hinted at in the game. The “staircase” that @ResJudicator is describing should be a pathway for learning made clear by the PvP architecture. Game should be telling you to first learn all the skill mechanics of a class then look at mechanics of other classes as well. Game should be telling you that first and foremost you should be practicing 1v1 duels and understand each possible match-up. Game should be telling you that the following step is learning rotations. Game should be telling you to first learn self-rotations or play in a duo before going to perform rotations with a whole team. Ultimately, the in-game architecture should have a stage in place for each one of the learning steps.

Those QQnet videos are the best learning resources that are out there when it comes to the fundamentals of Gw2 PvP. They are very well put together and supported by devs, but they are widely unknown. Instead of a new player having to come ask here, in these forums with a questionable reputation when it comes to objectivity (another symptom of the same big problem), wouldn`t it be better that these QQnet videos were linked-to from a in-game tutorial section/panel/UI/window/text/tip.

Silv.9207:

A Pro necro can do good things and I can be useful for my team as a necro, but if the team is bad I’m not able at all to help and I become a problem instead of a resource. That’s the problem of the necromancer.

What you describe is not a “problem of the necromancer” or a class design problem. It is a symptom of an issue with much deeper roots: lack of a proper PvP tutorial, specifically, non-existent voice of authority that accurately describes what class roles and identities are within the PvP medium.

Class descriptions on the Gw2 site are poetic at best, with severe flaws and it has been proven multiple times that they are not rules enforced as a foundation for balance. Even if some fundamental descriptions were set as rules, it still would not overcome the logistics of having to address three game modes at the same time. Also, HOT and post-HOT balance chaotically distorting class roles and identities certainly did not help.

Interesting perspective on the secondary mechanics. Analysis is put together well, however, @Huskyboy raised some valid arguments against Temple mechanics. You didn`t consider the full extent of their snowball potential.

In a capture-node game mode with x nodes, the periodic appearance of an effective extra capture node (making it x+1 zones to be accounted for) is a design that will always be though to get right.

Surprised as well this topic didn`t get more traffic. Certainly deserved it compared to that big necro qq and rant thread.

Ether Renewal, Signet of Restoration, Arcane Brilliance, “Wash the pain away!”, Consume Conditions, Signet of Vampirism, Well of blood, “Your soul is mine!”, “We heal as one!”, Troll Unguent, “Receive the Light!”, Signet of Resolve, Skelk Venom, Hide in Shadows, Channelled Vigor, (nerfed) Healing Turret, Elixir H, A.E.D., Ether Feast, Mantras, Signet of Ether, Empowering Misery say hi.

Anti-teleport spots as part of the terrain exist for a reason.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’ve posted many times in the past that a Battlefield-like system could potentially work well in GW2 PvP. This would mean that:

1. The team with the most number of players on point would start to cap.

2. The cap speed would be greatly reduced if contested.

This might help keep the game from slowing down too much and would allow for larger capture points. It would be nice to also see different terrain on the points like large tombstones on Graveyard that can be used for cover and the like.

Larger capture points would also hopefully help with visibility because you could avoid bunching up. It might make certain builds more viable as well.

This may be the best suggestion I’ve ever heard in this section of the forum. Snip

Simple question for both of you. Say me and my team manage to force a rotation where I can maintain a 1v2 while keeping a point contested for a considerable amount of time (ESL level), or say I am keeping some 2 people of an unorganized team around a point while contesting it (ranked PUG level). Say, in both scenarios I play well, leave room to rotate if needed, utilize terrain+kitting properly, utilize my skills properly (not carried by whatever thing is qq-ed about in the forum for being OP/broken). Why should my team not be rewarded for forcing a 1v2 in the favor of an enemy team that can`t resolve a scenario they should? Likewise, why should I not be rewarded for being able to stall two people by putting my knowledge of all game mechanics in practice?

Taking Battlefield 4 as an example, the conquest-point holding game types are vastly different from Guild Wars 2 PvP Conquest in several major aspects:

• the modes are designed for a very high number of players, from 20 up to 64 on the larger, full-conquest maps;
• number of capture nodes can range from 3 to 7, depending on the map;
• capping a point from neutral/decapping to neutral is in the 15 seconds range;
• re-spawning works differently; you can spawn on ally players and the overall points obtained from holding nodes influences the amount of re-spawns the opposing team has;
• sometimes vehicles are used on the field.

Given all of the above aspects, it would make sense that one would want to speed up the flow a bit in the Battlefield conquest design, and tweaking the node capture rate is a good way to go about it. But most importantly, there is a fundamental difference in game play; Battlefield is a shooter in essence and it cannot have the same pacing as a PvP MMO or a MOBA where you still control one player. You can`t talk about "+1"s and team fights from the latter in the same manner as you would discuss those from a shooter, they are too different in design and meaning.

Having the capture speed of contested points reduced together with the initial idea could work in Guild Wars 2. But how “greatly reduced” is enough and not too much, plus what happens in larger scale battles on point? What proper reference can you even use for implementing such a rate?

And ultimately, why are the smallest details that have never been an issue or looked at for 3-4 years and have worked up until then suddenly require a change? Why are we discussing proven fundamental aspects as problems when the increase in accounts of problems and complaints about “game pacing” (long battles, bunkers are the devil, qq about using terrain) and the like can be directly correlated to the introduction of the new thing: HOT? In addition, do we really want to go full circle and go back to zerker one-shot meta? Will we eventually reach a point where even that is not enough and we will “progress” to shooter level of pacing, and then arcade-shooter level of pacing?

Furthermore, why are we talking about Khylo trebuchet when mid-air immobilize bug still exists, numerous ranger pet bugs still exist, necro wurm random failing ports, list of rev bugs, etc, etc? Discussing a rework of rezzing and not addressing first and foremost the mechanics that trivialized this aspect of the game and were introduced with the HOT power-creep bandwagon. Killing depth and diversity by removing amulets instead of addressing the actual source of the problem, the conceptual designs introduced by HOT. Why all of this?

Isn`t it more sensible in the long run to address the powercreep that HOT introduced, if you really want to keep all the strong positives that the PvP design of this game has always had from release up to 3-years old? Instead of all the pseudo-solutions/band-aid fixes and cycling between which few of the one-per-class meta specs get to be top dogs for the next season? You need a strong foundation if you want to build something that lasts; you made wide fissures into your foundation to build HOT on top of it.

azyume.6321:

Sorry, hard to consider your post when it is heavily based in a false argument.

Sorry that logic and coherent argumentation triggered you so strongly. Maybe the sarcasm in the opening bit was too strong? too subtle? it provoked the lack of reading comprehension and blatant lying that followed?

TL;DR Encore: Stunbreakers with a casting time exist and have existed in this game, and there are reasons that “make sense” when it comes to why they have a cast time.

*Hopefully you don`t miss this time that the whole discussion is about your “having a cast time on a stunbreaker doesn`t make sense” comment. Stunbreakers with a cast time still break stun instantly, so no one is “terking yer jehbs”.

azyume.6321:

Are you really comparing oranges to apples?

The objective of my post was not about comparing, but about proving your logical fallacy and lack of game knowledge that you demonstrated in the quote I initially made bold. For that purpose, I had to highlight that some obvious design similarities exist between certain stunbreaker skills, which is not even tangentially “comparing oranges to apples”. Saying something like “oranges and apples are both fruit and both have seeds” is not a scenario fitting of that expression, these are conceptual-level similarities.

azyume.6321:

You are wrong about the non-instant stun break predominating before HoT.

I am beginning to sense a pattern of lack of reading comprehension. I never stated or hinted, not even remotely, that non-instant stunbreakers were “predominating before HOT”, that`s your interpretation. The recurring theme in my post is quite obvious (even summarized at the end in bold): skills of this type exist and there are reasons why they exist (which I explained). “This game has had non-instant Stunbreaker designs in a working, viable form for quite some time now” is the only phrase from which the far-fetched interpretation of “predominating before HOT” could have risen; if “working, viable form”=“predominating” to you… well then… why does logic and a well structured argumentation trigger you so bad? You do realize that “working, viable” does not mean “it is great at ESL level”, right? “Viable” means not in the state that skills like: spirit weapons, guardian signets, elementalist signets, conjured weapons, elementals, were at that time (and still are now — NOTE: ele signets did have a short period of being viable).

azyume.6321:

Out of 49 utilities skills with stun break among all professions in game only 4 (Bandit’s Defense, Stomp, Well of Precognition and Well of Power) have a cast time.

You could`ve saved your time and checked my links, which are from wiki too, instead of tryharding that list (if you did do that). You do realize everyone can see the “Activation Time” icon on the far left near the skill icon for every one of the skills I stated, right? On a side note I also happen to test things like this in game on a regular basis, plus I have used both those old skills when they were usable and the HOT skills. Also, you do realize that desperately trying to hide your fallacy because someone pointed it out and you got upset over it is rather pointless with such obvious evidence, right? You are just making yourself look bad.

In Gw2, the “Activation time” icon is used for both casting times and channeled skills, having “Duration” written in the tooltip does not mean it has a cast time (the more you know).

Bandit`s Defense is considered a skill that you channel, like almost all the non-aegis blocks in this game (not a cast time). Cast time = you start creating one or multiple effects that appear at the end of a duration without any other effect happening in that duration as a result of that cast. Channeled = compared to the previous description, it has multiple effects during the cast/duration. The most obvious examples of the difference: Shield of Courage —> cast time, Meteor Shower --> cast time, Crystal Hybernation —> channel (it has pulses during its duration), Empower --> channel, Conterblow —> channel, Protector`s Strike --> channel. The only atypical things about Bandit`s Defense are: that it has an instant block frame on activation with the potential of obtaining a modified skill, its insanely low CD for that class and the extremely long duration that the “kick” lasts once obtained (compared to other classes`modified skills); apart from that, works like most stunbreakers in this game.

You are right about Stomp, it is an atypical stunbreaker with a cast time, I simply forgot about it. Its design doesn`t bear the conceptual similarities that Well of Power, Well of Precognition, Rumble and Bypass Coating share between them, except for the tiny bit of instant stability for the after-effect. It is in tune with the warrior class theme like Headbutt, big tell, get great utility from landing the hit, short-to-medium CD, the after-effect of the stunbreaker is an animation lock so it puts you at a risk. The most recent rework of this skill was a really smart design from the devs, props to them, however it still poses the question: did warrior really need more access to stability?

Also forgot Rite of the Great Dwarf, and it bears the conceptual similarities between Well of Power, Well of Precognition, Rumble and Bypass Coating. After-effect is, again, a very potent ally support. Very interesting that it lacks the 1 second stab (like Coating) on a class where high access to stability was introduced with the Elite Specialization line (like scrapper). Hmmmh.

azyume.6321:

In case people don’t know: Only Test of Faith and Fragments of Faith don’t have a cast time. All the others traps have a ½ activation time.

Fragments of Faith being a stun break doesn’t make sense to have a cast, while Test of Faith is actually the only insta cast trap.

Well of Power, Rumble, Well of Precognition, Bypass Coating and Headbutt say hi.

The first two of those were designed way before HOT to follow the concept of: stunbreaker with a cast time and with a bit of added stability to counter CC spamming, such that the additional effect of the skill had a chance to cast (NOTE: they belonged to classes designed to be weak to focus). This is the reasoning the developers stated in a time where the amount off CC going around wasn`t at the high level that HOT brought. Even Well of Precogniton was initially conceived in an environment preceding extensive “in practice” experience of final HOT spec designs. And the same reasoning for its cast time+stability was stated by the devs in streams during the BETAs.

The particular design aspect of stunbreaker with a cast time shown by Well of Power, Well of Precognition and Rumble make perfect sense “in-void” because all of them have a very potent after-effects (for their respective times during the game`s history); Necro well is an AoE condi-to-boon conversion for allies (plus combo field); Rumble is a short-range AoE attack with a good damage modifier (for that time) and a blast finisher (potentially crucial for a glass turret build using it); mesmer well was AoE invulnerability for allies (now aegis pulse) and endurance restoration (plus combo field). On the two that have 1/4 cast times, the natures of the respective classes (at the time) and of the skills allowed enough counter-play for the those short intervals; in other words, the skills were very predictable short-range, short duration AoEs on classes that were weak to focus.

In the case of Bypass Coating, it is still a very potent after-effect that is shared with allies, its effect radius is the same as wells (according to tooltip), and non-traited CDs are close (30-45 seconds range) between all 4 skill. So it doesn`t have 1 second stab on cast because… reasons? Because devs wanted to give wide access to stability for scrapper in other forms and it would`ve looked sketchy?

You might think it is odd that I added Headbutt in the list, but it is still an atypical stunbreaker. It respects the design of stunbreaker succeeded by a potent after-effect, similar to the other listed skills. Even though the stunbreaker part is instant, it is followed by animation lock (can be broken only with weapon swap), thus it puts you at a form of disadvantage (not to mention the self-stun) as trade-off for the after-effect. In terms of other design aspects, having very potent single target effects with a big tell on a short-ish CD is in the foundation of the warrior class of this game; does it really have to be a way better Skull Crack given to all other weapon sets, though ?

TL;DR This game has had non-instant Stunbreaker designs in a working, viable form for quite some time now. Of course the amount of CC HOT introduced is a problem for that type of design

UnitedChaos.8364:

Pvt Frosty.6973:

https://youtu.be/Y3BgiTkJvWQ

Exactly.

It’s also worth noting that each map tends to teleport to a specific location.
Forest: Front of red base’s gate.
Forest: Center near water between spawns.
Colosseum: Exact center of map.

Yesterday, on Colosseunm near a sidepoint, was ported to some random spot on a ramp (not outside the map) by a druid trying to rez me, but it was the effect of the Allies` Aid trait, which is some differently coded version of its corresponding shout skill. Search and Rescue, the shout skill, seems to be porting to specific spots on each map, yes.

…to the greatest troll this forum has ever seen

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Nomad-in-pvp/first

How very fitting at this stage in the game`s history…

Burtnik.5218:

Im doing that all the time. From low to full hp in no time. That said theres no reason for UA to proc confu 6 times just like there is no reason to break channel on stealth targets.

Translation: eliminate more counter play elements to the already extremely potent mechanic that is Unrelenting Assault, because I am being countered by them.

UA is a channelled skill of 5 separate hits. Evade frames don`t and shouldn`t pause condition ticks. By your logic, all of these things shouldn`t proc Confusion damage on every hit also: Pistol Whip, Blurred Frenzy, Zealot`s Defense, Hundred Blades, Flurry, Whirling Defence, and every other channel in this game. I guess the conceptual design of Confusion/Retaliation, punishing a fast rate of skill hits/amount of hits/ skill spam, should be cast aside for UA because …

With your second comment, I assume you mean that UA channel should not be broken by stealth in particular and it is not a statement on how stealth works with channels in general.

How Stealth works with channels (not considering UA)
Currently, a channelled attack (def = multiple hits during cast time) that is a targeted non-radial AoE (e.g. not like Natural Convergence) and is started before the target casts stealth, finishes the channel before the target acquisition is broken, if Line Of Sight is not broken first (e.g. a ranger casting Rapid Fire while moving forward, if you go through him during the cast and reach his back, LoS will be broken and the channel will be interrupted). You can avoid the LoS being broken by casting the channel while standing still. While a target is selected, this will make any channelled skill adjust the facing of your character during cast to follow the target, unless the used skill is “rooted in place” (exception of Flurry which still follows the target) or a movement skill (which are animation lock to begin with).

Quite a while ago, more towards the release of the game, the above interaction between stealth and channels didn`t exist. When this was intentionally changed for counterplay reasons, it was also made such that there was a window after a targeted player cast stealth, in which lock-on was not broken yet. So you could start your channel in this window, after the stealth was cast, and the skill would still lock on if you had the player in target before the stealth cast. This windows was somewhere close to, but below, 1 second. Tests that I have done today show that this window is now either gone, or below 1/3 of a second. That is the best reaction time I could get, where hardware setup circumstances were favourable (50-80 ping, around 20-30 FPS). From memory, around the 23 June 2015 period, the windows was still close to 1 second.

About the interaction between Stealth and UA
In essence, UA is still multiple (guaranteed range) mêlée attacks. In terms of consistent design, all mêlée attacks in this game that have a channelled component are either “rooted in place” (e.g. Pistol Whip, Blurred Frenzy, Hundred Blades, Flurry, Whirling Defence, Shredder Gyro), mobile AoEs that are usually 360 degrees spins (e.g. Whirling Wrath, Cyclone Axe, Whirling Axe on both war and thief, Dagger Storm, Soul Spiral, Gravedigger, Electro-Whirl, Shock Shield, Magnetic Shield), or movement skills (e.g. Burning Speed, Death`s Charge, Surge of the Mists). In other words, they don`t lock-on stealthed targets, even with the standing still “trick” described above (except for Flurry). Furthermore, even non-channelled mêlée attacks don`t lock on to stealthed targets unless the standings till “trick” is used, with the exception of movement skills such as: Rush, Savage Leap, Eviscerate, Bull`s Charge, Dash in Juggernaut, Swoop, Monarch`s Leap, Leap of Faith (where this feature is necessary). Not to mention that it would be anti-thematic for mêlée to lock onto targets in stealth if it wasn`t some gap closing movement skill.
Note: Legendary Assassin Stance has already a potent enough port and UA already goes through Portal, so that is thematic enough for an assassin, imo (revenant weapons have been designed with a corresponding legend in mind).

Counterplay tips bonus

• if by some mistake you started casting UA with confusion on, use weapon swap to break the animation lock, if you really need to! Otherwise don`t UA with confusion on if you can`t tank the damage; and there is always Renewing Surge, and dodge+dodge+ Riposting Shadows (only one tick from Confusion active) ;
• If you expect a stealth from enemy, don`t UA. But if you do want to UA, you can cast the instant Gaze of Darkness before or during the UA to prevent stealth. If none of the above is convenient for your scenario, you can still probe the area with skills like Precision Strike, Warding Rift, Elemental Blast, Sigil of Fire proc, auto-attack chains, un-targeted and aimed projectiles.

Varezenem.2813:

Staff 5 has 9 hits not 11~12… Also it’s far from a AoE it’s a 3 target line cast skill the chances of hitting more than one target with the full damage are negligible. Also proc refers to passive stuff Surge of the mists is a active skill.

The “11/12 crits” was a typo on my behalf because I rushed when writing the post; I went back to look at what I noted down from the combat log on that occasion. I mistakenly counted the number of hits to include: a left-over Enchanted Daggers proc, the hydromancy proc, and an air sigil proc, that were all among the Surge of the Mists hits. Hit Svanir 9 times with Surge of the Mists, all crits, all damage values were correct. Equilibrium doesn`t show in combat log, I took the value from the number on screen. Tried to recreate the same circumstances as close as I could a couple of times, and the number is in the 5k ballpark. Even managed to get higher in some cases.

My comments below are going to focus on PvP, since this is the PvP forum and I am a firm supporter of splitting the game modes.

Comments on the combo Surge of the Mists + Equilibrium + Sigil procs

• hitting more than a single target is still AoE;
• Hydromancy and Fire Sigils are AoE, radius 240, and hit up to 5 targets;
• Equilibrium is AoE, radius 240, and hits up to 5 Targets;
• the most “non-negligible” scenario where the full Surge of the Mists channel can hit multiple foes: rezzing in PvP. In a team fight rezzing someone is usually very important. Because of this, it is most common that at least 2 people try to rez a downed person such that they can ensure getting the rez through the potential cleave. Any two points form a line, so no matter how they position themselves relative to the downed body, both rezzers can get caught in the full (or -1, -2 hits) Surge of the Mists channel with ease and the target cap of 3 not be broken;
• there are many other scenarios of PvP combat where full Surge channels hitting multiple foes are not negligible;
• The simplest way to describe combat in GW2 PvP is the interrelation between these conceptual situations: team fights that gravitate around a specific location of small area relative to other regions, disengages from team fights and/or races to reach other important locations, small scale fights (1v1, 1v2, 2v2) that can gravitate around a specific location but there is more freedom of positioning. This description is not exclusive to the Conquest game mode. In PvP conquest (and other facets of PvP), team fights are usually constrained to a small area location in terms of range units. This is not solely limited by the fact that there is an objective in play. A crucial aspect of team fights is team support through shared defences or peel (def= limiting the pressure on your allies through offence). In the GW 2 system (now and pre-HOT), almost all defensive support is applied in close-to-medium range with close-to-medium range effects, as well as the majority of offensive peel. Even in the cases of support being applied from range, the effect radius is almost always close-to-medium range;
• Therefore, there is a natural tendency for a group of allies to have extensive periods of keeping close to each other (down to less than 240 radius) in between kitting to spread the incoming damage, even in the cases of the highly mobile/squirrelly specs (e.g. daredevil, revenant). This behaviour has even more of an advantage due to the 1v1 and rotational potency of current power revenant meta, and due to the AI spam breaking target limits that is found in current meta specs such as “Rise!” necros and Inspiration/Illusions Chronophantasma. In PvP Conquest/Stronghold, no matter how mobile/squirrelly your team composition is, you can still be out-rotated, you are still going to be forced into team fights at some point, and one of your players can still be full-locked in a coordinated attempt by 2+ players, especially on point/objective;
• 240 radius is the average size of a node in Conquest mode (excluding Foefire map they are all pretty much the same size). Once forced into that 240 radius for support, its most likely that allies are not going to think about maintaining an exact 480 units distance between them to prevent an easy Surge set-up and they will end up coming quite close to 0 units of each other (not going to argue why it is best in most situations to keep your character in constant motion, that`s pretty obvious I`d say). So your Surge is pretty much set-up by itself due to the game design once targets are pressured into close proximity of each other for support. Even if you catch each of 2 players with 4 Surge hits, sigils proc on Legend Swap, thus we are still looking at roughly 13k lock per target (not maximum damage potential from modifiers). Whether it is full or half channel is a bit redundant in light of those values (above 10k, multiple targets, no escape once locked);
• Scenarios in PvP where the spread of positions in a team fight is even more constrained than usual because of map design: mid-point layout on Forest map, races to kill a monster on Forest map, mid-point layout on Khylo map, wood platforms around Clock Tower on Khylo map, archway under mid-point on Khylo map, terrain layouts around Stillness and Tranquillity buffs on Temple map, stairs from mid-point down to Tranquillity buff on Temple map, frontal stairways into side-points on Temple map, races to kill/defend Guild Lord on Foefire map, stone platforms on Skyhammer map, terrain layouts around side-points on Skyhammer map, hammer control room on Skyhammer map, orb channel spot on Spirit Watch map, wooden bridges on Spirit Watch map, hero channels on Champion`s Dusk map, supply channels on Champion`s Dusk map, Guild Lord cleave on Champion`s Dusk map, NPCs stacked on a door on Champion`s Dusk map, everywhere on Courtyard map except for the patch of the dirt at the very middle of the map;

About Surge of the Mists in general

• it is a full evade window with no wind-up animation, pretty similar to Whirlwind Attack on warrior greatsword in these regards;
• a good PvP player should have good enough control of his character and camera motion such that in-line casts are not a problem, both mêlée or ranged;
• a good PvP player will cast it in situations where the full channel is guaranteed, if possible. After he has drained your key mitigations/defences (the ones that can be monitored of course, not Protection spam on Tempest for example), or after he has drained your dodges, or right at the end of an evade frame – where any class is typically most open to attack because of animation lock (except those that can chain many evades: rev and thief), or when you are running in a straight line and he is chasing you, or when you are stationary, or following a previous CC lock, or in narrow paths. Furthermore, a good PvP player should be able to make the fast judgement of whether he can sacrifice the damage of the full channel for just a short CC (start cast far away from target to rupt a crucial healing skill – when necros are low and out of shroud, for example) or just a short evade frame (multiple targets are converging on you for a nuke and you need quick LoS/terrain advantage). Other options that can be used to keep the offensive momentum in a fight are enough, to the extent that spamming Surge on CD just for the sake of it can be a big waste;
• a good PvP player will know how to fake or hide their most important skill casts for guaranteed hits (for the best examples look at these aspects, pre-HOT: people that have mastered power warrior, war vs war duels, warrior WvW solo roaming). Fake running away with “About Face” followed by “About Face” backwards cast when people are chasing you. Luring targets into bad positioning, followed by surprise casts from behind LOS props that prevent any view for incoming attackers. Faking one skill cast in the favour of a more potent skill for that specific scenario. Faking an animation lock just to break it with weapon swap. When there is opportunity, keeping your enemy guessing by playing stupid for a fraction of a second to bait defences or to have the reactive advantage: not doing anything while moving in close range of the target, standing still while waiting for him to act first, closing the gap in mêlée and not doing anything but gravitating around target, breaking your offensive momentum at awkward timings, baiting offence with awkward timing of defences. Casting skills that can be retargeted while facing away from the opponent, followed by “About Face”;
• Similar to the Warrior of old metas, which was forced to use such “tricks” to maximize efficiency, revenant in present day metas has the characteristic of being quite safe to one-shots trough their mix of potent defensive capabilities coupled with powerful damaging skills. Thus, such “tricks” that rely heavily on being able to stall can be performed well on revenant even in the current amount of power-creep;
• Short version of the above comments, it`s not difficult to land Surge for a full channel. Simple example scenario: as a revenant, I can port in with Phase Traversal from out of view, which in most cases is potent enough to waste a dodge (because the threat of unblockable big hits: UA, Precision Strike), then follow it with a guarantee Surge channel at the end of the evade frame; if a dodge is not wasted, targeted either tanked the damage or wasted some other defence, and I still have powerful close-range pressure to force an opening for Surge while not being in any danger of one-shot by a single target or a +1;
• Stability in PvP rarely exceeds 5 stacks (only two skills give 10 stacks in one cast), where most sources are interval pulses of 1-3 stacks, some are single cast 2-3 stacks, and few are single cast 5 stacks. To guarantee that Surge gives you no CC you need to have 4+ stacks because of the skill`s travel distance/duration in relation to the number of hits – This was prior to 19th April 2016 patch when it was made such that a stability stack can be removed by CC only once per 0.75 secs, in both WvW and PvP. Now Surge can remove only 1 stability stack;
• If you are caught in it, it’s the only CC lock in game that can`t be countered with a Stunbreaker due to the speed and amount of the Surge hits;
• It cannot be rupted by a person outside the lock because of full evade frame. And the 1 second duration certainly doesn`t help in this regard. Furthermore, in this game, ground-targeted AoE fields and instant, passive CC procs on attackers are limited or on high-to-medium CDs. Surge is at a low CD of 20 secs;
• Don`t select any traits in the PvP tab, select Marauder Amulet + some power runes with no damage modifier, select a main-hand or two-hand weapon, don`t select any sigils, don`t select any utility skills, and look at all the tooltip damage values of the skills in this game. First 3 places for highest direct damage single hit: Surge of the Mists (roughly 3300, not capped at one target), Procession of Blades (roughly 3200, not capped at one target), Thunderclap (roughly 3100, not capped at one target).
• Blind and Aegis are insignificant counters because of 9 fast hits;
• When countering this skill an opponent has to consider 5 elements at the same time: positioning, its CC, its damage, its evade frame, its AoE effects (e.g. if an ally is downed at other teammates are rezzing while I am redirecting some of the focus and damage, I have to try to not position myself around them if a staff rev is on me).

Spartacus.3192:

Varezenem.2813:

Charged mists is the Invocation GM that is never used (might on threshold) what exactly are you referring to?

Exactly. Who even uses Charged Mists GM trait? It gives 2 stacks of might when you use a skill that drops your Energy below 50, when compared to Roiling Mists which is a free extra 20% crit chance when you have Fury.

From the context and the way in which it was described, it would have been quite obvious that staff 5 was being discussed if one had stopped to think about it.

Varezenem.2813:

Om Im.7863:

FrownyClown.8402:

Equilibrium is generally used for added damage to a staff 5. The goal is to be close to the opponent, switch to staff and switch to shiro, essentially procing sigil of hydromancy and equilibrium on top of a staff 5

It is used during Charged Mists or UA for guaranteed hits and extremely potent wasting of defences. The reality of many match-ups will have you proc it outside these two scenarios.

The combo that you described is also probably one of the biggest cancers in this game. It is certainly up there. As if Charged Mists wasn`t ridiculous power creep with minimal counter play as it is, on its own…

Tested on a zerker power build with Devastation + Invocation + Herald, runes of strength, all damage modifiers traited. Was casual skill rotations, focused on keeping might stacks close to 25 and some boons for Elder`s Strength rather than having Rapid Lacerations at max. Done on Svanir below 50% (for Swift Termination). Hydromancy proc: 2k crit, Equilibrium proc: 5k crit, Charged Mists proc: 13k (with 11/12 crits). Total: a 20k lock.

Yes, it requires some set-up, the degree of the reward though… that dmg in the combo is AoE btw. Still minimal counter play if used right and most of the set-up is part of your usual rotation of skills.

Charged mists is the Invocation GM that is never used (might on threshold) what exactly are you referring to?

Thank you for pointing that out, my mistake. Was stuck in my head that the name of staff 5 is Charged Mists, opposed to Surge of the mists. Corrected now in all posts.

FrownyClown.8402:

Equilibrium is generally used for added damage to a staff 5. The goal is to be close to the opponent, switch to staff and switch to shiro, essentially procing sigil of hydromancy and equilibrium on top of a staff 5

It is used during Surge of the Mists or UA for guaranteed hits and extremely potent wasting of defences. The reality of many match-ups will have you proc it outside these two scenarios.

The combo that you described is also probably one of the biggest cancers in this game. It is certainly up there. As if Surge of the Mists wasn`t ridiculous power creep with minimal counter play as it is, on its own…

Tested on a zerker power build with Devastation + Invocation + Herald, runes of strength, all damage modifiers traited. Was casual skill rotations, focused on keeping might stacks close to 25 and some boons for Elder`s Strength rather than having Rapid Lacerations at max. Done on Svanir below 50% (for Swift Termination). Hydromancy proc: 2k crit, Equilibrium proc: 5k crit, Surge of the Mists proc: 13k (with 9 crits). Total: a 20k lock.

Yes, it requires some set-up, the degree of the reward though… that dmg in the combo is AoE btw. Still minimal counter play if used right and most of the set-up is part of your usual rotation of skills.

edit: Mistaken the name of revenant staff nr.5 for Charged Mists, which is a GM in Invocation. Now corrected. Also, miscounted number of hits of Surge of the Mists (9 vs 12) in combat log, now corrected, damage values were always correct.

Blast from the past (pre 23 June 2015)

1. Fresh Air trait used to have an internal CD that was 5 seconds, if I remember right. People that played properly and took the time to get mechanically good would count the 5 seconds in their skill rotations, and prepare accordingly against the instant Lighting Strike plus Blinding Flash combo. The ele build had to continuously be casting because of Signet of Restoration sustain, and was forced to go back to air on Fresh Air CD most of the time in order to keep the pressure up. In other words, even if it was non-telegraph, instant with potent sustained damage in range, it could be expected and had counterplay.
2. Illusionary Persona was a Grandmaster trait in the Illusions line that gave the shatter effect on the mesmer as well. Even with Deceptive Evasion trait (already 30+15 points occupied), to maximise its efficiency in combat (actually do good damage), the mesmer had to properly set-up clones, bait key skills, then land a Mirror Blade plus shatter at the exact right time. All that set-up work made the effect predictable in most cases. Even for condi builds, it was necessary to hit the shatter at specific moments since the conditions were low duration Torment and Confusion.In regards to defence, it was obvious when you forced the mesmer enough such that he had to use a shatter.

3 specialisation trait system (23 June 2015 – HOT release)

1. Power creep, both general as well as specific to some of the classes` individualities, was introduced;
2. Fresh Air CD was removed, thus reducing counter play. However, the build evolved into being dependent on Stone Heart for sustain. Through this, the timing of going back into air from mitigating some damage in earth was made somewhat obvious. And even if attunements swapping was spammed for fast and many Electric Discharge plus Lighting Strike combos, it would sacrifice key effects from other attunements (a rupt and some heal in water, damage in fire, the sustain from earth). To this day, Lighting Strike still has a cooldown, which can be monitored.
3. Illusionary Persona was made a class mechanic. Mesmer received many traits as baseline to the class on that patch. Was quite the display in terms of power creep. But needed as claimed by the majority of mesmer mains. Deceptive Evasion was made into a Grandmaster trait, thus limiting some access to illusion generation. The fact that efficiency in combat required a set-up for a shatter remained the same. PU buff made sustain a problem for a while. If we are talking about powerful non-telegraph and unpredictable in this era, Confounding Suggestions plus Mantra of Distraction, is the main culprit – the 5 second CD nerf didn`t really solve the unpredictability issues in any way.

Fast-forward to present day HOT

1. Even more power creep everywhere, where good design aspects achieved after many years of works were shoved under the rug;
2. The devs attempted to buff Fresh Air as a build in many iterations since HOT-release in order to match-up to the amount of power-creep of other things that were introduced. Reality is that the build is subpar with meta elite specs.
3. Illusionary Reversion, Chronophantasma, Time Catches Up removed the need for deep thought and difficulty of setting up your shatters. Especially on the condi sustain meta build we have currently. On that build, low couldown sword skills, and staff illusion creation skills, coupled with Alacrity, plus Persistence of Memory, plus reduced recharge on shatters, throws any predictability out the window. You are left with proper use of cleansing and positioning, and maybe a gut feeling on how the mesmer will proceed.

Tl;dr At some point in the PvP game`s past, non-telegraph instant skills actually had predictability and thoughtful counter play.

Revenant legend swap mechanic doesn`t offer any of this when coupled with Equilibrium because the class is designed and highly rewarded for stalling. In addition, the power version of the class already has too many defence wasters.

Burtnik.5218:

Wait.. Equilibrium is a problem now? A trait that actually need a buff bc it req for energy to deal damage sux balls? You guys are amazing. That damage is nothing special on it.

Ele has similiar trait which they can proc many times due to air attunement resetting on crit and that one is fine? Autopitol steal with no casttime, shatter (at mes loc) with no casttime is fine, but this one specific trait is op? Your bias is real guys.

The fact that they weren`t mentioned doesn`t mean they are not acknowledged. When I described its [Equilibirum`s] problems, I opted for simple examples of “designing it well”, where skilful play and thought was promoted. It was already a long post. The situations you brought up call for a more ample discussion.

As a mini sidenote: I wouldn`t call the dmg from one meteor crit or third auto-chain on theif sword “nothing special”.

Some counter-arguments to your statements:

• Proper use of Glint always puts you above 50% energy easily. You are mostly going to use the actives for pressure or an offensive defence. Coupling the upkeeps with Hardening Scales instead is subpar for defence by comparison;
• In rotational play, because of the port and mobility in Shiro, you can position yourself smartly to keep the status of “in combat” on and stall for a bit to get energy. An interesting idea, as food for thought, would be to overall tweak rev to have energy decay back to 50% while remaining in a legend when going OOC, instead of instant drop to 50%;
• on Marauder amulet with Strength runes and no damage modifiers considered, Electric Discharge has 550 tooltip damage, compared to Equilibirum 1000. You can add that to Lighting Strike which is 950 (totalling 1500), but the sceptre skills has 10 secs CD (6 secs when traited). I think you meant the combination of the two;
• ele has minimal access to precision enhancing mechanics compared to revenant;
• ele and mesmer don`t have the non-situational damage modifiers and high damage skills that revenant has. A shatter build, a fresh air build and power revenant meta, are all focused on single target damage though.
• The flow of revenant defences allows for minimal gaps that a shatter build or fresh air can profit from and minimal baiting of his skills. During this flow, the revenant has ample opportunity for defensive offence (e.g Surge of the Mists, UA) on low CD, that can hit hard through the many more windows that ele and mesmer have in their defensive flows;
• Steal in most scenarios is predictable, especially as an opener. Also, its CD can be monitored. I had a comment on this in a previous post. Even in rotations (lets assume with no communication), if a thief comes to fast gank you from stealth or behind some terrain prop where you can`t see, you should expect a thief to +1 you and be very mobile on the map. And you should react accordingly if the 1v1 or whatever scenario is not in your favour or lingering on. Disengage and get on some terrain prop where you can control the thief`s ports. Headshot plus Impacting Disruption is the actual minimal non-telegraph with minimal predictability problem when it comes to thief; but projectile hate is grossly prevalent these days;
• Revenant port isn`t forced to be cast in the 1200 range as Steal. And the Unblockable effect doesn`t require for the port to hit a target. It has telegraph though. Both ignore LoS, except for the places were terrain is coded badly of course;
• see below post for a story about the non-telegraph skills you mentioned and their predictability.

edit: Mistaken the name of revenant staff nr.5 for Charged Mists, which is a GM in Invocation. Now corrected.

Of course there is incentive to soloq for prestige levels in legendary, just think of all those dyes you can get !!! Maybe give out a title like “Dye Farmer” to who reaches prestige 30 or smth, to make it more appealing ! /kappa

And if that`s not your cup of tea maybe aubergine farming is.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/The-Viability-of-Eggplants-in-sPvP

Exedore.6320:

It helps, but it doesn’t address the true problem, which is ridiculous power creep.

Pretty much this. Most likely this will remain the same for the future of PvP, unfortunately.

Ravenmoon.5318:

500 damage, much high, so unstop, wow, wow

500 damage on Equilibrium is baseline in PvP with no amulet, no runes and no traits selected.

Let us consider only Marauder amulet with strength runes and no other damage modifiers in the equation (no traits, sigils etc).
Equilibrium tooltip damage is a bit above 1000. That is comparable (under the same constraints) to one meteor from Meteor Shower, third auto-attack in thief sword chain, a level 2 Mind Wrack, warrior Skull Crack, third auto-attack in guardian greatsword chain, third auto-attack in warrior hammer chain, Fierce Blow – to name a few. What do these things have in common ? They are mostly meele, with a cast time and require predictable set-up to land leading to obvious counters.
On top of the amulet and runes, revenant also has damage modifiers and great potency to crit (as does thief, but their access to precision enhancing mechanics and damage modifiers are more situational). Have you ever stopped to notice what damage on crit one meteor did to you back when damage/zerker builds on ele were viable?

Gotta love how one`s affinity towards a class comes first over logic and argumentation, to the extent of even spreading false information.

Since the “take Invocation for damage” statement was used by two posters, a few comments on the Invocation line.

Most of the damage comes from Equilibrium. Apart from that you get a measly 7% damage modifier while under fury; Devastation line modifiers (including vuln and might) equate to significantly more than this. Without Invocation, a Herald spec with Glint already has good access to fury. On Marauder Amulet, with normal fury you have a 74% chance to crit, and with Roiling Mists you have 94%. That +20% over 50% is not worth it, even on hammer; it`s not like you are a war relying on your big telegraph evi to crit or you die/get out sustained/get kitted.

Thus, on Marauder, Equilibrium is really your big source of damage in Invocation. Sacrificing that damage and the wasting of 50% energy it implies (for dmg) is quite an obvious choice in favour of the defences of the Retribution line. Berserker amulet is another story… since you lose the vitality and are already weak to condi, its best to go full yolo on high damage. And because precision is 46%, Roiling Mists actually becomes important towards the damage output.

Retribution vs Invocation, you loose the stab on dodge for a stun break on legend swap. With the amount of CC that HOT introduced, gee, I wonder which one is more potent… hmm… big dilemma! And even if CC was kept to pre-HOT levels, it surely can`t be the passive option, right ?

Problem with Equilibrium: it is instant with no telegraph and high AoE damage. Mechanics of other classes that are/were non-telegraphed or close to it (e.g. close range shatters, steal, backstab, tactical strike, instant procs on going into shroud, Judge`s Intervention burst) are/were part of the overall class design in such a way that allowed them to be somewhat expected at certain times during the battle. For example, if you see a thief in the distance coming at you from the sides or back, its a pretty high chance that he will open with steal. Another example, mesmers of old had to actually do set-up work for a good shatter and were forced to cast shatters in order to keep pressure.

Swapping legends does not have even a remotely predictable timing during a battle, unless you are already locked in Surge of the Mists after your CDs have been drained. You either eat Equilibrium or waste 2 dodges/a stunbreaker if you think he will use it after one of the other CCs.

edit: Mistaken the name of revenant staff nr.5 for Charged Mists, which is a GM in Invocation. Now corrected.

XxsdgxX.8109:

The mindless hate towards Revenant is so obvious. I really don’t want to waste anymore time explaining except for just some simple things.

You either go Invocation for damage or Retribution for the defense passives, and on Herald line either Soothing Bastion for the shield 5 proc on low HP or Enhanced Bulwark for the extra Stability or Elder’s Force for extra damage while having boons

Makes mindless comparison between rev and war using incorrect statements, gets extensive argumentation on why his view is distorted, calls argumentation mindless hate, proceeds to “explain” something that has nothing to do with the things stated.

XxsdgxX.8109:

Every single time someone complains about them they talk as if every Revenant was using all the build threes and traits simultaneously and like 3/4 Legends also at the same time, and 0 cd with 0 energy cost skills.
And then I also just found out some people think JALLIS is OP, great joke there.

Absolutely no post made it seem that more than three traitlines or 2 legends were being used at the same time, that`s your imagination. Most (including myself) commented on the meta spec that STILL uses Retribution, some commented on Invocation separate from other lines, Corruption line or condi specs weren`t even hinted on, Salvation is a dead line that no one ever discusses.

You need to learn your class mister/miss “rev main”. Versed in Stone ~= Jalis. Stability gain ~= Jalis. Or maybe you just like to take things out of context.

All rev weapon skills are intentionally designed to be very powerful and potent, especially on the low energy costs + low CDs nr.1 and nr.2; this is done under the pretext of being locked into: a smaller pool of utilities (legend mechanic) and energy management. The only other weps that come close to this type of power-creep potency are scrapper hammer, followed somewhere very far along the line by druid staff.

CDs on rev are overall low, regardless of the energy management argument. Anyone that thinks otherwise, would`ve loved to see you play fresh air ele or shatter mesmer back in the day.

Shiro and Glint are significantly more forgiving on managing energy than the other Legends, and significantly more powerful utility skills. No one was arguing that Jalis, Ventari or Malyx is a spam of op utility skills. And again, no comprehension of stalling in one`s game play. Revenant is the most rewarded class for stalling, which coupled with the low CDs, can make already powerful skills be quite easy to repeat.

No argument against passives or about how passives carry bad players. Pretty legit. Shouldn`t be surprising really when in your first post on this thread you advocate for Malyx to “auto inflict conditions”. Guess actually timing such an important mechanic and having some sacrifices for the outcome , like a cast time and a telegraph, is too difficult.

Ravenmoon.5318:

It’s funny how most of you forget about the fact that the rev has to micromanage energy and just throw skill names in the list as if it is generic warrior firing off abilities

Just goes without saying what skillfloor you guys are at.

It`s funny how most of you forget about the fact the war has to “micromanage” his position relative to terrain and his limited access to defences/mitigations, don`t read what the full context of the skills being listed was, and don`t comprehend the concept of stalling in this game

Did I do it right ? I would`ve included a thing about how the general mentality is that most warriors are generic and “just fire skills off”, but was getting too long compared to the original.

Warrior stalling/maintaining distance

1. has to sacrifice key mobility skills on medium CD (but made high by comparison due the amount of mobility/range other classes have now);
2. must have the right terrain to allow this;
3. to reposition;
4. to let some CDs recharge;
5. to leave healing signet to do its work, coupled with Adrenal Health if carrying Defence line;
6. in some instances to wait for some adrenaline: Signet of Rage passive, berserker Stance to fill bars;
7. not baiting or draining anything on the opponents while doing this, except if you gain a good position for using a ranged wep like rifle.

Revenant stalling/maintaining distance

1. to leave energy bar to fill allowing access to more usage of already low CD powerful skills, with the added potential of some powerful CC chains – most rewarded class for stalling;
2. to let some CDs recharge;
3. all the CDs and energy costs on the Shrio/Glint sword/staff meta flow quite nicely into a good tango of offence, defence and positioning;
4. usually one dodge and a Riposting Shadows is enough distance gained while also curing movement-impairing conditions and gaining stab if carrying Retribution line;
5. minimal sacrifice is made by doing the above and mechanics like: Infuse Light,Versed in Stone, full endurance bar again, powerful offence against singled-out targets, don`t really put you in any danger of being insta-nuked;
6. you have: Infuse Light, Staff block, Staff evade, Shield block, still potent damage, to allow in your skill rotations while outside Shiro; and since Glint is quite forgiving on the energy usage…
7. your use of LoS is more powerful then that of opponent and some positioning mistakes can be easily rectified, both because of access to 1200 port that ignores LoS;
8. alternatively, in some cases 1 sec of Impossible Odds (fresh air anyone?) is enough for obtaining a significantly better position;
9. all of your mitigations and evade chaining are very effective at baiting skills of opponents, even more so coupled with powerful nr.1 and nr.2 wep skills on low CDs and low energy costs.

Revenant has to “micromanage energy” just as all the other classes have to not waste dodges, CDs and their active mitigations/defences.

kappa
Precision strike: 5 energy cost (replenish rate is 5 per sec with no upkeep), 4 sec CD, 600 range, no animation-lock, 3-bar eviscerate baseline damage (2371 evi vs 2184 on Marauder with strength runes, no dmg modifiers). Energy micromanagement, yo!
/kappa

Forgot about the only trait line in the game where all minors and traits that can be chosen are passive, a.ka. Retribution line. Goes somewhere there along the lines of my above post.

Versed in Stone, stability on dodge, Eye for an Eye, so “complex” to use man
.
.
.

XxsdgxX.8109:

I actually find the lack of condi cleanse very interesting, as a Rev main I wouldn’t want it given any other ways to deal with them and end up kittening up the class. Only Ventari and maybe Jallis need some tweaks now, even reverting Mallyx to auto inflict conditions would also be nice I guess.

And you OP make it sound like Rev was a low skill class, lol I come from playing Guardian and Warrior and Revenant is in fact way more complex and much more entertaining for me, and even then it is barely better than those other two classes but as in a Jack of all Trades, master of none.

Their survivability comes from active defenses and feeding from the opponent’s mistakes., so yeah for sure more complex than having a Healing Signet healing for nearly 400 HP per sec and having a high HP pool.

That baseline 3200 HP difference, so strong man… Healing Signet so strong, totally not obvious counterplay with smart uptime of poison and a good ping-pong between pressure and kitting (dug up from Hambow days). More highly telegraphed skills and cast times for war, please. Not enough as it is, more non-evade animation-lock too.

Random chaining Riposting Shadows/evades and superspeed on demand is so complex too… must be the 600 radius AoE Skull Crack Elite instead, uhmm no, no…. maybe all the armour ignorant life siphoning and unblockable attacks, hmm, not that… the better Defiant Stance heal? nah… must be having to gain crucial distance by sacrificing a non-evade movement skill while making sure you save something for re-engagement and that your re-positioning is impeccable (since you are mostly full mêlée and all)… `cause it`s not like you have a 1200 range, 5 sec CD, LoS ignoring port that can go up vertical elevation (+Riposting Shadows)… oh, wait
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“Rev main”, mkay…

We`re no strangers to healbots,
We know Ele and Guard swapped roles.

MrKrataus.6420:

Mesmer’s never gonna give you up,
Necro’s gonna bring you down,
Engi’s gonna run around and laugh at you.
Rev’s gonna make you cry,
Warrior’s gonna say goodbye,
Thief’s gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

(Rangers have to not be included in order for this joke to work correctly!)

all is vain

/15 chars

bloodpyrope.8630:

Anari.2137:

Did you really just ask for metrics proving pushing buttons means more interaction with the game?

No, I asked for a source on the “higher retention rates, and more competitive play.”

Still waiting on that API…

From near the beginning of this thread.

Anapxist.5314:

Just add topic starter to friend in game with accaunt tag, and you will see he have 1300 a.p. Yes pvp only players didn’t have much a.p. in general, but 1300. Really. And if you search for his post’s in forum you will see he start them about month ago. If we add here poor game mechanic understanding and his wrong class rework suggestions we can have a result. He is new player, maybe 2 month in this game End of story

Remember when there was no “Reveal” debuff after attacking from stealth?

Remember when Guardian Spirit Weapons were “Immune” and Guardian had Warrior baseline Vitality?
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(And how they realistically never nerfed Guardian again for 3 years after that Vitality nerf, until 23 June 2015? —> If you ignore the fact that they gave Spirit Weapons health bars at some point – the useless skills that no one was using were made more useless.)

OP, may I ask you how long have you been playing GW2, respectively WoW? Specifically, how long have you been playing GW2 PvP, respectively WoW PvP?

And how much time have you dedicated into first-hand experience in the PvP aspects of these games? (number of matches played or number of hours in PvP or whatever)

Regardless of what`s being discussed in this thread, it is quite obvious that OP is trolling. So let`s stop feeding.

Wolfric.9380:

Well they removed setlers. how about this.

- 1050 Condition damage
- 1050 Healing Power
- 560 Toughness
- 560 Expertise

I guess some rangers might dig out condi trapper variants. Don´t know if other classes would take it to become more powerful or it will add to build diversity. I would like it.
I would also like a wanderers variant swaping toughness with precision. Not so shure if this will help reapers to much ….

Imagine current meta condi mesmers, Inspiration variant, with this amulet… No, thank you !

This suggestion looks like an OP Mender Amulet for condi, with the excuse of having toughness because condi is “slow” to apply or smth.

Also, there are a lot of other classes that can deal too well with the scenario of having no added vitality, a little bit of toughness and high benefits from healing power. Condi lock berserks, condi engi/scrapper with Inventions line, druid in multiple variants, revenants because they can actually benefit from healing power if Infuse Light is taken out of the equation (staff auto, staff nr 4, shield nr 4, shield nr 5, Shiro and Malyx heal skills, Leeching, Regeneration).

Then, on top of that you have the low Vitality classes, where there is still potential to make it work in ridiculous ways: guardians/DH with high burn stacks + block spam + traited Meditations, thieves with evade spam and Shadow Arts, tempests with all their mitigation mechanics – some of which are Healing power based.

Asrat.2645:

Supreme.3164:

Yannir.4132:

@Supreme Did you even read the whole comment? Quoting myself here: “Ele is in a good place when it comes to boons” That does not include any other ele aspects.

Cementing the healbot role even more is far from being a good suggestion

I agree on that. Instead of building up on that op, cancerous support bunker, that i can not believe anyone ever truly enjoyed playing, we should rather try to give back to the ele some fun builds based on movement, damage and combos.

The amulet itself seems fine. At least not op. But I do believe most people would go with toughness. It usually scales better than healing power and is important to prevent a stunlocking-burst.

An important comment on the Toughness thing. In this meta, it kinda is redundant when it comes to focus from multiple enemies because of HOT power creep, removal of defensive amulets and the shift towards condi bursts as main offence. And on top of that, Revenant power damage numbers plus Leeching mechanics, or getting caught in DH trap nest combos, are enough alone to eat through high toughness, no problem.

So I would argue that Healing Power is more desirable for the classes that can benefit from it, especially when you have other mitigation mechanics better than Toughness (e.g. Endure Pain, Infuse Light, auras, buffed Protection, Stone Heart, multiple water field blasts, Regeneration, evade skills, Ancestral Form, traited Meditations, heal on shatter). When you are focused, its best to disengage, abuse terrain, create distance/avoid getting hit and stall for cooldowns. Toughness will only save you against some single high number skill that you don`t notice incoming or from bad positioning in a mob vs mob fight. That`s why things like Mender Amulet on Druid can shine.

All in all, the above paragraph shadows a very important problem of the game, which is the amount of healing options and mitigation mechanics that have been introduced. And these are currently justified by the significant increase of offensive numbers and offence potency. Vicious circle.

In any case, it would be nice and expected to have the Concentration stat among the PvP amulets, since there already are Expertise stat amulets that give a distinct and significant flavour. More diversity is needed.

In a nice system that was well organised you would at least have a balanced nucleus of symmetrical concepts (i.e. Expertise stat direct opposite of Concentration stat, condition effects that exactly mirror boon effects), which are easy to manage and you build on top of. Then you could kitteh all over that with “shaking up the meta” – giving top dog status from some classes to others every few months, but at least you would have a solid initial foundation of concepts.

What this person said.

@Krysard Anet has removed most tanky amulet. This amulet has 3 deffensive stats, so I dont think its going to be added anytime soon.

In light of this, some possible suggestions for new amulets off the top of my head:

1. change Toughness on Paladin Amulet stats for Concentration, which is exactly the same as scrapping Ferocity from Marauder Amulet stats;
2. change Vitality on Mercenary Amulet stats for Concentration;
3. change Healing Power on Sage Amulet stats for Concentration;

This does not mean alter the latest 4 amulets we got, but add more. I replaced some +560 stats instead of others because you have to think about what classes are the main beneficiaries of the current form of the amulet, then make the stat change be a viable sacrifice for them.

Also, you can always replace the Precison on that redundant Magi Amulet with Concentration and adjust the overall values so it doesn`t have to be more than 37% Boon duration.

“Cleric has too much toughness and HP at a cost to other stats”, “tone down toughness and HP”
What more HP? (assuming you mean Vitality)
Are we playing the same game ?

Accounts that are new to ranked PvP (i.e. never played a ranked PvP game before, ever) are considered as having 50% win-lose ratio (“MMR”) for their first match. For a bell-curve distribution between 0% and 100%, that is the exact middle, were a large number of players will be. However, there is still a significant portion of the player base below the average 50% and because you are always matched in a team with players of the same “MMR”, new accounts have the opportunity to bypass everything below 50% if they get lucky win streaks/carried by better players.
You can search for the proof on forum posts from the developer responsible for the Matchmaking system, Evan Lesh. I specifically, remember this explanation from him being in a post regarding Season 2, but I think he explained it in some discussion about Season 1 as well. Can`t be bothered right now to search for direct link. I do vividly recall the given reasoning for this 50% allocation for new accounts; it was that this rating is the average one where most players eventually end up anyway.
Furthermore, there have been numerous posts discussing exactly this allocation in regards to the bigger picture of Season 2 matchmaking.

In other words, make yet another PvP map that is based on PvE style game-play and AI, even more so than the last one we got (i.e. Stronghold, Champion`s Dusk). No, thank you!

Something like this belongs in a mini-game/challenge/PvE arena in some HOT map somewhere or some guild hall.

It has been happening a lot in PvP for the last 5 days or so.

The conditions from this 6th effect are applied through evades as well.

It is also funny that the blue side tends to be favoured in all cases, including Raid on the Capricorn and Champion`s Dusk.