Guild Wars 2

ReginaBuenaobra.6953:

Update on paid tournament status: we’re still working to correct some bugs, so unfortunately paid tournaments will not be activated today. We’re looking at tomorrow for those to come online. Thanks again for your understanding and for hanging in with us while the team works to fix those bugs.

Thank you, this is precisely the information we desire!

Sprinkles.6748:

RapBreon.9836:

As hilarious as that was. I gotta admit, leading us to believe paid tournies were coming out with this patch then not coming out as the patch lands is terribly slack.

People stayed up to play these tournies as soon as possible only to find out that they waited for nothing.

Staying up and waiting for something to go live on a major online game is a really bad move. I know mostly everything else in the game was patched smoothly. But those people sitting around waiting for the event to start were potentially wasting their time.

It doesn’t matter if you agree with the choice made by someone else or not and whether you see it as a potential waste of time (what isn’t?).

The fact of the matter was and is, they were given information acted on it as they are committed and passionate and were not informed of the changes.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

They have to see first , if they succefully fixed the Guardians Protector’s Strike expoit + Warriors Bladetrail (soon) and some hopefully fix other classes like Necro :P

(Enginners : Cleansing Formula 409 desnt work with Toolbelt Healing Mist + Exilir 4th leaping attack)

And I’m totally cool with that, but if their intention is to do this, tell us before the patch lands. That’s all I’m asking for, some communication and transparency.

Augh the winning 2v1 argument. TPvP (not SPvP), is not about killing, it’s about point generation.

If you 2v1 on a neutral point or a point you own (to a lesser degree a point they own, not the best idea though), you are winning, matter of fact, you have won!

Your team should be able to secure the other points (assuming you live long enough, or at least make progress), and on top of this you are either preventing them from generating points or generating points for your team, whilst you bleed out on the floor and slowly die, preventing them from capping.

If you kill them, then you instant 3 cap the map and win 500 – 0. Tactics > Killing.

Last time they said that, we waited a week +, sure we get the information, the problem is the speed at which we get it.

I’m just glad I wasn’t one of the people who stayed up for paid.

It’s not about that, it’s about their inability to communicate to an apparently important part of their community, the competitive PvPers.

As hilarious as that was. I gotta admit, leading us to believe paid tournies were coming out with this patch then not coming out as the patch lands is terribly slack.

People stayed up to play these tournies as soon as possible only to find out that they waited for nothing.

I’m not even mad that they didn’t come, I’m mad that Anet, despite their espousing of ‘transparency’ decide to not inform us that we won’t be getting what we (the PvP) community, desperately want.

I understand issues arise, it doesn’t stop us from being rather…disgruntled by the lack of communication, which was 1 line in the middle of a huge patch-note list.

My opinion on it is that SPvP has no ‘flair’. TPvP conquest, uber balanced is fine and a lot of fun.

But SPvP isn’t, it’s 16 people on a 10 players map running around like headless chooks. Which is most MMOS bg’s to be fair. But the thing distinction for me, is not only the maps not being designed for 16 people, but the failure to include ‘for fun’ game types. Capure the flag, oddball, etc.

For me Swtor sucked, the PvP was imbalanced and a WoW clone, with no ‘e-sports’ in mind. But the casual PvP was amazing, Huttball was the single best BG idea ever, I spent countless hours playing that.

For me this is what SPvP lacks. TPvP is fine (assuming paid comes soon as free is getting boring, rankings are important!), not that I wouldn’t love E-sports huttball though.

Bloodbath.7084:

RapBreon

Trust me, i fully understand what you are saying regarding planning around downed state, and player stalling. You fail to mention, however, that all the timing/stalling can be done without having to implement downed state. It’s not exclusive to GW2. Also, it’s always a bad idea to plan games around “ideal” scenarios, and a good idea to make them flexible. Right now, this game is very static exactly because of downed state and bunker builds. And while i disagree with the first, i see the latter as a more legit way of stalling.

Regarding your final statement, you should have read my post thoroughly. It’s exactly to avoid this kind of abuse that a suicide button would be implemented (or one of it’s alternatives being discussed in this thread). You can seriously hamper the opposing team by ignoring ressers (which, admittedly is the downed player’s fault most of the times, by still trying to heal) and forcing them out of the battle or as much as 30s (think down time + bad luck on repop timer + running back) which i think it’s too much. One of the alternatives would be to diminish the overall HP pool (which would be messy) or simply increasing the bleed-out speed/damage.

And yes, preventing the kind of abuse you describe has also been discussed here, which is why there should be a minimum time to be in downed state before dying, when not being touched by enemies.

Choosing when you die is a reward, when you die, you shouldn’t be rewarded. You have the choice to let yourself bleed out and deal with the hand you were given, when you’re being bled out, ideally you’d have the awareness to just let yourself go, and realise the best time to let it happen to get the smallest res. Suicide button is a far worse abuse I’d rather the down state removed than a suicide button. Minimum time is still silly, when you can just bleed out.

Bunkers are OP for many, many reasons, least of all their downed abilities. If you die instantly, you can not stall without a downed state, this infact counters one-shot builds.

No you don’t design games around ‘ideal’ situations, which is why I gave you two scenarios in which 2v1’s favour the person whom is outnumbered in a proper tournament.

Whilst it’s noted that 2v1’s in this game are harder than you’re ‘usual’ game, with a good team the downed state is really useful 2v1 if you know what you’re doing.

Firstly and most importantly, if you’re 2v1ing, your team should be outnumbering the enemy elsewhere, which means the same advantage applies to your team.

You do not, under any circumstance in this game, in a tournament setting, need to kill players to win.

If you are 1v1ing and they send two and you manage to down them both, two things then happen at this point;

1. They down you, but because you downed one earlier and didn’t have a guaranteed stomp, you would ideally DPS the downed player or AoE them both so that when you did go down you could simply kill the downed player (unless they have a way to avoid it, for example a Ranger or a thief TPing behind cover) rally and finish off the other.

You have taken two players out of the game, taken their point and your team should win everywhere else. I admit, this is an ‘ideal’ scenario it doesn’t happen often but it’s possible and pretty much determines you win because then they have to fight you again for their point (possibly sending three).

2. Their downed DPS finishes you off and they both rally, this is far more common but you still win. This I can’t stress enough, you have won at this point as long as they do not own the node.

Presumably you went down on their point so they couldn’t cap it back or to neutralise it because they went down off it, so for the remainder of your life you will now force them to have a reduced point generation. On top of the fact they have a reduced point income, your team should be winning whatever it is they’re doing due to their outnumbering of them, giving them a chance to get the rest of the map under control.

In a tournament setting, if at any stage you are engaged in a 2v1 on a neutral point, or a point you own every second you live and maintain that, you are winning even if you ultimately die, you have still won.

The only time this isn’t good is if they kill you very quickly and you eat a 19 second rez timer. Even then the guy has to cap the point which takes time then run to the fight, by this time you would be at least on your way to wherever needs help or assaulting.

In tournies I often (as my job) try to grab the attention of as many players as I can on a neutral point. Attacking their natural bullying their defender off the point (or killing him) and then just delaying against two people for as long as humanly possible. My team then has an extraordinarily easy time of 4v3ing everywhere else.

The downed state actually adds a huge extra dimension to this game, one the community hasn’t full appreciated yet (with good reason) and it is something that must be planned and strategized around.

From my experience the team that wins even team-fights is the team who knows how to manage the downed state (rotate defensive moves, from both yourself and team-mates, etc.).

To my own embarrassment, I have been in fights, where we downed the enemy team four times more often than did us in the middle of Foefire. We ended up losing because at that stage we didn’t understand the importance of having someone who could reliability; rez, stomp and support downed players.

Finally a downed suicide move, not only removes this strategy (implementing its own, shallower strategy), but promotes abusive use of this mechanic. My team on regularly ignores stomping a player and let them bleed-out or stomp them at very specific times to maximise the res timing and just DPSing until then.

If a suicide was an option, you’d simply have player killing themselves at the appropriate times just to get a faster res, people wouldn’t bother with the downed state simply for an instant res (swiftness would become a must have for everyone). Team-fights would be endless against equal teams.

2cents.

‘Protect me’, unless recently changed is not a good choice for bunkering unless the node is neutral, as it actually stops you from capping or defending a point. If an enemy is on it and you’re on it with ‘protect me’ it’ll neut or cap. Same goes for Elixir S and as far as I know any form of invulnerability.

Not sure about Stone Signet, but I’d bet it the same issue applies to it.

Valhallen.1693:

One on one, sure I’ll concede that a glass cannon thief or 100 blades warrior is stronger than most other professions. But s/tPvP are not designed around 1v1. Matches are designed around capturing and holding points, and most importantly teamwork. You getting rocked on your dps or “balanced” traited engineer while you ran around the map by yourself in quick join is not indicative of any kind of game imbalance. (Not to mention the fact that you failed to blind the thief and easily counter him)

Whilst some of your points are valid, you decidedly ignore situations where 1v1’s are very important.

This, of all MMO’s I have ever played has one of the biggest focuses on duelling I have ever seen. I have been in very close matches where everybody on the map is tied up in a team-fight except for one player on each side, often the winner of that duel can cause the team to win the whole game.

There are times when a defender can not get support and must 1v1 an attacker, sometimes the defender is there only due to opportunity and not actually specced (some bunkers lose to certain specs as well) for it, often it is the duty of this person to not necessarily win if counter-specced, but delay, you can’t delay if you die in 1 second.

The downed state is a loss if the other person has a decent amount of health, unless you’re a Mesmer, Ranger or Warrior with vengeance + quickness (lol 6k rogue crits okokok).

Not even mentioning Kylo, the map has so many places to be the most you often see is 2v2’s, with the occasional team-fight.

Stealth, Invincible (these are guarunteed), Quickness and Stability stomps also counter a someone stopping a stomp. The only thing that really stops a successful instant-kill from being complete tide turner is big 3+ team fights where multiple team-mates can rez faster than a stomp cast-time. At which the point the glass cannon becomes a liability to his team, so it has its ups-and-downs.

My 2 cents.

I play at relatively ‘high-tier’ tournie PvP, a proper condition P/P – Bomb kit build is absolutely amazing when fighting on a point. I don’t lose duels to anything but Mesmers (but you know, they are Mesmers) even bunker guardians have to get off the point in under a minute or risk dying.

Absolutely viable if you want to run a point assaulter or duelist, decent on defence as well, but it’s a waste of potential to not send it to pressure a node IMO. For non tournie play it loses effectiveness, as fighting on points is less important and more often than not people just roll as a zerg.

My 2c

It’s extremely strong, both in duels and in tournament team-fighting situations. It more than justifies the 85 second cool-down, if not being OP outright in most circumstances, with there being only three legitimate ways of dealing with it.

1. Do insane DPS, or very high DPS and have poison. This becomes easier with multiple people, but still having people focus you while downed because you’ll get back up has its own tactical merits.

2. Have stability and be literally on top of the Engineer as he goes down.

3. Have a large knock-back, whenever I see another Engi drop it, they always eat an overcharge shot.

It shouldn’t be reviving instantly, but if you go down just as it ticks, it’ll pop you up before a finisher can finish you, which makes it even more OP.

Bomb Engineers are actually just as viable if not more common (due to their viability, before someone points this out as a non-sequitur). They just run around on a point stacking conditions on you and absolutely dominate team-fights if they aren’t forced to go defensive. Which grenades also do. I think, it is mandatory for a ‘non-specialised Engi’ to take at least one of those kits however.

I play Engineers at a relatively ‘high tier’ in tPvP, IMO Engi’s are pretty high tier, like 3rd or 4th best class, probably on the strong side of ‘well-balanced’, borderline OP.

They do however take more effort to learn than the classes of similar strength, because their strengths aren’t as upfront.

We do have our problems, no doubt and we do get countered by certain set-ups but that’s the name of the game.

Dw man, when you figure out that your phantasms can kill someone whilst your stealthed and do more damage than a player, your life will drastically improve.

Adrenal Implant from memory and testing 2ish weeks ago does work, it does not however stack with Vigor.

TwiceDead.1963:

If we’re going to have a mindset where things have to make sense to the LORE, then it would make a lot more sense for an engineer to be equipped with a sword/dagger than a gun. Why? I imagine flintlock pistols and a blunderbuss is far more expensive to a street child struck by wanderlust than a dagger or a sword. I could imagine it would be possible for nobility born folk, but as I said this is if we were to make sense out of the ECONOMY.

(Again I take roots to the real world in comparison, my bad folks)

Anyhow the argument that an engineer is not a trained soldier is false. Only a fool sets out on an adventure without some kind of insurance that he can handle hardships. When do you see a non-combatant wield flamethrowers or flintlock pistols turned flamethrower? Not to mention a blunderbuss. They are all weapons a trained soldier would use and you need experience to use those kind of weapons. You can’t just pick up a tool and instantly know how to use it, and a gun requires more discipline than a sword to use it in a proper way (Safety-wise).

Okay I make a lot of references to real-world experience, but I work in the army and launch F-16’s daily, and I do mostly maintenance work, and even I am trained in combat situations. So real-life comparisons is kind of inevitable for me, I apologize.

It’s implied Engineer’s build their own tools, and in the Charr Iron legion story, directly refers to this being the case. And everything else beyond that point (lvl 2+) is found/rewarded for your services.

An individual does not need to be trained in how to use a firearm to pick it up and use it to moderate effectiveness. If you want to get real technical, compare the stances between an Engineer and a Warrior when they use the rifle, one fires from the hip, the other from the shoulder. That would indicate some level of training or at least awareness of how to use a rifle properly.

Beyond that Warriors/Guardians are referred to as ‘soldier’ classes, where the medium armor professions; Ranger/Engineer/Thief are considered ‘adventurers’. Unless your backstory dictates it, adventurer types aren’t considered professionally trained soldiers. That being said a peasent warrior from the streets of Divinity’ reach has no formal training either. Regardless, the implication is there.

Finally I’d be willing to hazard a guess people go out on hazardous journeys all the time without formal training and survive, maybe even do really well with themselves because of it. Pistols turned flamethrowers, wouldn’t really have a training course, the Engineer built it XD

I don’t think comparing a fantasy game and real life situation, is a good way to go about designing a game, IMO.

Engineers in this game aren’t ‘professionally’ trained soldiers like Warriors and Guardians are, they’re just inventive individuals with a streak of wanderlust. This doesn’t apply to the Charr as much, because basically every Charr is a soldier on some level.

However being said, argument can be made that the Engineer has some real life inspiration, traditionally combat Engineers carry close range weapons for person defense. This is reflected in both weapons sets that require you to get close for maximum damage. Personally would love to see another melee option, besides the tool-kit, failing that tuning the tool-kit would make me happy.

Morgue.2356:

-snip-

This is pretty much everything wrong bug wise with our class, summed up perfectly, and thankfully saves me having to do it at some stage, thanks for that!

Good topic as well, this is a good place to bring these to the attention of the devs, so I’ll add my own that I think haven’t been mentioned.

Healing turret: Dropping the turret and picking it up or detonating it after regen has been applied makes the regeneration heal for 5 health for the remainder of the regeneration. The healing for a specific 5 health occurs both in PvE and PvP. Morgue mentioned this, but my experience as to what causes it is different, so I added it.

Additionally, I’ve never seen cleansing burst remove a condition from me, even when I’ve stood next to it with multiple conditions and tested it.

Pistol condition builds are viable and very strong (with or without coated bullets) it’s just the focus is shifted away from bleeds. The Engineer gets access to every single damaging condition in the game on one weapon set, this inevitably means our bleeds can’t be as strong as other classes.

That being said, the pistol auto attack is, in my opinion, very weak and after blowing my other four pistol skills I generally swap to a kit.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

Daze?

Uh, IIRC the only daze we have is the Shield Throw. and thats on a rather high cooldown.

And the burning + poison Dual Pistol engineers get is pretty iffy considering the Burning + Darts is not at max effectiveness (Not entirely true for darts) unless you are in melee range or close to it.

You literally need to sacrifice range for damage on two of your abilities with ranged weapons on a ranged build.

I can really think of no other class that actually needs to do that. And quite frankly i find it a tad ridiculous.

Sorry, very similar icon I always get them confused…I meant confusion. Confusion being very powerful and a rare kind condition damage wise, that not many classes have a way of obtaining (stacking in intensity, which only bleeding does as well). Sorry about that.

Engineers were designed to be constantly shifting their range to do maximum DPS. They weren’t always want to be kiting, nor do they always want to be closing the gap. They want to get close and then back out, it was mentioned ages ago by Anet that was the intention of Engineers as gun users and both weapons (shield not really being a ‘weapon’ per se) reflect this concept. As do grenades (more effective the closer you are in PvP at least).

And I, personally love the way that Engineers play constantly adjusting their positioning to maximise DPS, it’s a very dynamic way to play.

With regards to the rifle stunning you as well, it’s like 1/3rd – 1/4th what it does to your opponent on such a short cooldown, it’s the rifles strongest move IMO, especially for manipulating ranges. Allowing Engineer’s to set-up combos on their target due to CC.

Overcharged > Netshot > Jump shot > Grenade Barrage > Blunderbuss >20k Damage on a squishy Overchaged shot is the weapons playmaker ability and it’s very good at it.

Visionary.5681:

Apart from that fact that i can barely stack 4bleeds with my auto attack. My biggest issue with Engi Pistols is the OH Flamethrower.

When i use the OH Flamethrower, if my character is facing the mob/player, but my camera isnt straight ahead, as im using mouse look, the flamethrower always misses.

In PvP i manage around a 40% hit rate with the ability 4.

Any of you guys suffering similarly?

Yes, similar effect with Blunderbuss on the rifle, you have to have them in your direct cone of vision or it gets wonky as hell.

Your continued misrepresentation of what I’ve done; “supply some information” like I’ve dropped it down as the word of God is tiresome.

I supplied info, we discussed it, we’ve probably helped him more. Good times. It’s a better start than “sorry dunno, new game”.

He got what he wanted, a base to work off, a starting point. If he takes it as a conclusive answer, that’s his own failure.

Minilys.4765:

“But I tested it, I must be right for every possible situation ever!”

Lmfao, I put a disclaimer both within the original post, explained it multiple times to you and on top of all that, I said in this scenario it ‘illustrates’ (as in there is a link) better scaling from direct damage. I did another test in a different circumstance and added another confirmatory piece of evidence, strengthening the link.

Regardless my information helps, because during that scenario, a certain set-up is better, lending itself to applying to other scenarios using that set-up. Your information helped him with his options, which wasn’t his question. I paid the required lip service to complicating factors (such as time), and gave the OP as base to work with, what he does with it is up to him.

Edit: Grammer

CptCosmic.3156:

condition removal is annoying but luckily the engineer conditions have mostly short duration and are reapplied very fast

also I wish you good luck against anyone with retaliation. getting hit back 3 times everytime you hit with a grenade ability is not fun, especially in WvW and area retaliation combos.

Hahah yeah our condition application is fairly fast and short duration and gives us a leg up, still some builds are very hard to kill, I find mesmers are a condition build to be difficult as illusionary swordsman is pounding me into dust while I try to aim up a single blowtorch.

Hahah yeah I’ve blown myself up on retaliation before, Guardians make me fairly wary.

@Minilys; basically you’ve given him nothing. I at least gave him some information that was tested – I mentioned it isn’t conclusive – to use your analogy I gave him a 4 and a 2, what he wants to do with that 4 and a 2 is up to him. You basically just gave him the numbers 0 – 9 (whilst telling him 4 and 2 are wrong) and said, make your own decision. I’m sure he could’ve done that without your help.

I was expecting some mathematical theorycrafting illustrating the differences between condi and direct, but instead I got discussion of traits, which doesn’t even answer his question. Sure, it helps him with his options, which has been discussed by myself, others and in multiple different scenarios and topics.

CptCosmic.3156:

I have met plenty of nade spamming engineers and none was able to constantly hit me. I dont have to care about aiming with pistols, I just stack my conditions which together with my attacks will deal close to 3k dps and with perma swiftness and vigor I can just dodge and avoid grenades all day long.

In a duel unless the person is confined to a point you just throw the 2, 3, 4, 5 and skills on the kit in between rifle skill usage. I play both builds frequently and it’s all about the rifle engineer landing his combos, if he does and your escape is down, chances are he’ll win. The grenade kit is actually high skill-cap on a single target. I also have perma swiftness+vigor.

Condition builds have a hard time with heavy removal builds, especially Mesmer or Necros. Or another 409 Engi.

@Minilys; yeah I get it.

I remember having this protracted duel with a tank Guardian on a shortbow Ranger. Let me tell you, the death recap was a very sad thing to read.

Prelude.3817:

Ok, compare with Necro then. Scepter: spam #1—->2 stacks of 4 sec bleed, 1 stack of poison. 900 range. similar speed. I remember necros killing my engi mostly spamming #1!

And even so, just from a pve perspective: I remember having to rely mostly on this skill for my first 5-10 lvls, before i got my hand on a decent rifle.
It-is-the-most-pathetic-auto-attack-ever.
Raaaah those first lvls were the hell, very slowly killing mobs while strafing around like a circus monkey. Oh the horror.

Again Necro’s don’t get burning or daze as reliably. Not that I’m disagreeing, pistol AA sucks major…hot dog. It’s just bad comparisons, comparing inter-class is generally flawed.

Lyuben.2613:

I’m surprised this is even a question.

Ask yourselves, what is the engineers most powerful nuke?

Does it scale with power? Yes, well too. Grenade barrage is the most powerful damage ability engineer has and it has no conditions on it.

Shrapnel grenade, while doing some bleeding also does more raw damage than the standard grenades. The only pure conditions is poison, and poison does not do very well with condition damage as its damage is quite low.

The reason poison is good, is due to duration, more than damage.

So, in the end, the grenade kit is left with 3 stats which help it out:

Power
Malice
Expertise

Grenade, Grenade Barrage, Shrapnel Grenade all benefit from Power to a good degree.
Shrapnel Grenade benefits from Malice to a good degree.
Flash, Freeze and Poison Grenades all benefit from Expertise to a good degree.

From that it seems fairly clear that your best best for grenades is power and expertise. And since expertise is very hard to obtain as a stat, save from the explosives tree and from a few runes, it makes sense to invest into explosives, and investing 30 points gives you both 300 points of power and 30 points of expertise.

Which means that if you want to add malice, its a bit of a waste, since you already are maximizing the two biggest stats by taking grenadier.

Explained what I’ve been trying to this entire time in a much more eloquent way, thank you.

CptCosmic.3156:

there is a big problem with this kind of testing.
1. you dont have the proper equipment for a condition build, condition build should look for atleast 1200 condition damage and alot of condition duration
2.you are shooting a stationary target that does not dodge, does not heal and goes down pretty fast. fights in pvp dont last 5 seconds, they last longer. players can also dodge and move around, thus power build damage will go down significantly but the stacks of bleed will continue to do damage.

I did a build that hard stacked condition damage, I got similar results, there is no amulet that allows 1200 condition damage whilst allowing me to keep the other stats. This is why I dislike Rampager’s amulet. They have close to maximum relevant condition duration, using same trait trees but different runes.

I’ve paid lip-service to longer fights. Players dodging also affects the condition aspect on grenades, if you miss Shrapnel grenade, no dot damage for 5 seconds is worse than missing one set of regular grenades. That scenario works both ways. I know these tests aren’t perfect like I’ve mentioned, they’re still helpful for understanding the kit.

Grenades are useless in small-scale PvP? I absolutely hammer people 1v1 with them, I find them beyond useful in duels. We must have very different experiences with the kit.

Minilys.4765:

Didn’t I say your tests were meaningless? It’s so narrow-minded, you keep locking yourself in specific conditions, it’s barely progress, the only progress is that you tried something different. Does it answer OP’s question? Nope. Only theory crafting can give OP an answer unless you have the dedication to test forever with every possible factors available. I already said it, I don’t doubt that you’re trying to help, but it just doesn’t.

Dismissing everything even small portions of evidence is narrow-minded. I’ve tested many factors relevant to a grenadier who can’t decide. Your theory crafting has provided nothing, where as I have at least provided something. And I’ve admitted it’s not conclusive but it does help to paint a picture, the only picture painting you’ve done iskitten in my paint.

Edit: Grammerz

Minilys.4765:

Problem is, what’s relevant to you might not be to someone else, and vice-versa, I mentioned Incendiary Powder and you kept ignoring it for example. I mentioned Rampager stuff while for you stacking condition damage is the way to get the best dps out of a condition damage build. As I said, the answer is only meaningful to yourself and isn’t what the OP asked.

I replied about 400 times as to why I didn’t use it -_-’

I understand subjectivity Minilys, if I didn’t, I wouldn’t have described my stats, method or anything else. I even explained traits and why I chose what I chose. And explained why I stacked the stats I did, etc, etc.

I have decided to do another test for the sake progress! Same rotation as last time.

Traits were;

30 into explosives, incendiary powder, explosive powder and grenadier.

30 into firearms, precise sights, napalm specialist, nothing.

10 into tools, taking nothing, done only for crit damage.

These are pretty much the best traits for improving grenade damage. Blood injection could of been an option for the condition build, but due to only having 1.2k vitality and such a high crit rate with Rampagers, I felt 10% more crit damage was better.

Power build: 300 condition damage, 130% condition duration, 3,273 attack, 49% chance to crit, 180% crit damage. Ogre runes, Zerker Amulet.

Time to kill

1. 5.9
2. 6
3. 5.7
4. 5.9
5. 6.1

Average. 5.92

Condition build: 1,127 Condition damage, 130% condition duration, 2,750 attack, 62% crit chance, 160% crit damage. Afflicted runes, Rampagers amulet.

1. 6.9
2. 6.9
3. 6.7
4. 7.1
5. 7.2

Average. 6.96

This only further illustrates to me grenades are not a condition centric kit, they are a direct damage kit with some condition damage tacked on. The purpose of the kit is not condition damage like say the pistol is. They function better with traits and stats with power-crit and crit damage and anything that supports this set-up.

This was done on a heavy dummy and maybe in very long fights could condition damage ramp up enough to possibly catch up on heavily armoured targets. But seriously Rampagers Amulet for a condition build? You’d be stomped on so quick without some way to survive and let those conditions wear your opponent down, I still maintain even under the absolute best circumstances conditions for the grenade can’t compete with the direct damage component.

Minilys.4765:

You answered no meaningful question, the only question you managed to answer was: “Do I kill a target dummy faster with Berserker gear or Carrion gear with my specs and traits?” I could have answered that question with no tests, it’s a no-brainer for anyone who know what stats are carrion and berzerker. Well, congratulation on answering that question I guess but this certainly wasn’t what OP asked.

I certainly already mentioned that it was done in response to another topic, and was merely linking it to inform the OP.

Lets try a different approach, if I had of said; “using Dual pistols what kills faster” Zerker or Carrion, have a guess at what kills faster? Carrion because pistols are focused on condition damage, even if the Zerker has more dps stats. The whole point of the test was to work out where the focus was on the grenades and damage distribution was on the grenades, with relevant traits.

Minilys.4765:

Didn’t have enough crit because you decided to use a stuff with only 2 damage stats on it.

Rampagers amulet is too eclectic but most importantly, the most important reason I did not use it, is because it does not have enough condition damage 568 as opposed to 798 no condition damage Engineer would run with Rampagers without running a hybrid build, I was not testing hybrid build, I was stacking. This has been mentioned and reiterated.

I understand your logic about using the Rampagers amulet, it’s not beyond me, no matter how much you think it is, but it is not practical to use on a straight condition damage Engineer. I don’t want that much crit at the sacrifice of condition damage which was the subject being tested.

Minilys.4765:

All stats on gear at lvl 80 are like that: 1 major + 2 minor stats, minor stats are roughly 70%,
with dps stats being power, precision, condition damage and crit damage; why you insist on using 3 dps stats for your crit test but only 2 for your condition damage one is really beyond me, even with the lost power from using rampager over carrion, you’d still get more dps.

I already mentioned that the Zerker amulet has equal total stats to a Carrion/Rabid amulet. Zerker sacrifices 300ish vit for 15% crit damage. The zerker amulet has 4 stats in total on it.

I mentioned in hind-sight if I wanted to favour condition damage even more I could’ve used the Knight’s amulet for the crit-power test, even if they turned out even in TTK, the test is still so rigged in favour of condition damage that if it can’t beat direct damage by a decent margin it obviously is an inferior damage dealing method for grenades.

Additionally, in an actual PvP setting and condition Engi would take either Rabid or Carrion while a crit-power Engi would take Zerker, this is an itemisation problem with the lack of choices regarding amulets, there is no condition equivalent to the Zerker amulet, Rampager sacrifices condition damage for crit, making it not as useful as it should be.

The testing was supposed to emulate a real situation as much as possible whilst using even specs and only changing gear, picking traits that favour condi damage. This has been mentioned I am not wondering why it does less damage, it is evident.

Minilys.4765:

If that was the case you’d have you test with no specs or traits and only modifying gear. Which would give you the exact same results I gave you.

Which isn’t practical, because as I said it was a test of scaling and I assumed that part of understanding how things scale, also include the traits they scale off.

Minilys.4765:

RapBreon.9836:

I don’t even understand what your scaling values were based on, it just seemed like arbitrary numbers to me. Unless you mean 50% of power is converted into direct grenade damage, etc. it wasn’t explained sufficiently.

That’s exactly what I meant.
50% of your power is added to direct grenade damage.
50% of your condition damage is added to burning damage per second.
5% of your condition damage is added to bleeding damage per second per stack.
7.5% of your condition damage is added to poison damage per second.

And again you didn’t factor in Burning with your runes, which, as I already said, is the best dps condition. You’re just stuck in your own parameters without seeing beyond.

Ironically that’s what I’m thinking about you. Why would I build for burning without reliable application? The grenade kit itself does not apply burning, it only procs from one talent to which I did not have sufficient crit, if I did have sufficient crit, I would have had far, far, far less direct grenade damage which is less dps anyway and less pistol damage (which is important as well for a condition build).

I can tell you this though; 50% of condition damage does not apply to burning, I have never seen burning tick for 1k+ (base is roughly 300ish somewhere). And your scaling numbers don’t detract from what I’m saying, and I’m yet to receive an explanation on how they do. This is about the kit and it’s ability to apply conditions in a meaningful damage applicative way. Not condition damage versus direct damage in general. This is about practicable application and damage in a combat situation, so I emulated them as closely as possible and measured the TTK in ‘ideal’ circumstances.

Minilys.4765:

RapBreon.9836:

It shows that the grenades scale better with power and crit, rather than power and condition damage.

No they don’t, I gave the scaling values in my first post, I really can’t get more into the basics than this, and even then you can only get a real answer when you factor in a lot a things including but not limited to, gear (specifically the stats on them as well as runes used), specs, traits, target’s armor (people forget that thoughness reduce direct damage but not condition damage) and probably other thing I’m not thinking about right now.

Well I did choose the heaviest dummy to once again favour condition damage, ultimately you’d see a bigger spread, on super tanks condition damage might be more useful, but on lighter targets you will be more useful.

I don’t even understand what your scaling values were based on, it just seemed like arbitrary numbers to me. Unless you mean 50% of power is converted into direct grenade damage, etc. it wasn’t explained sufficiently. Which still doesn’t really detract from my tests which are practicable combat situations.

I also stated runes, etc. Ogre being the most common DD rune set and afflicted giving me the best condition damage + duration (even if I wouldn’t use them).

One of the differences is we get access to reliable amounts of daze, burning and poison. Warrior doesn’t really get it easily, so most of their condition damage will naturally come from bleeds.

Ultimately, Apples and Spaceships.

Minilys.4765:

RapBreon.9836:

Carrion gives power, from previous testing power gives more raw damage than rabid. Rampager I never use, because if I’m making a condition damage build, I’d take the amulet that give the most condition damage.

The idea was to test both ends of the scale, not a hybrid. Which Rampager lends itself to being. Rabid and Carrion have a very obvious condition damage focus.

As I said it’s completely useless in a direct test because you can’t separate the direct damage from the condition damage ever, period.

While I don’t doubt that you’re trying to be helpful, your results are ultimately meaningless and misleading.

It shows that the grenades scale better with power and crit, rather than power and condition damage. I know I couldn’t ever separate them, but I would never need to, because grenades are always going to have a direct damage component.

It case it wasn’t clear, the entire point of the test, was to give as much weight to the condition damage portion of the grenade kit as I could, and test it against the direct damage component, leading to what scales better, overall.

Carrion gives power, from previous testing power gives more raw damage than rabid. Rampager I never use, because if I’m making a condition damage build, I’d take the amulet that give the most condition damage.

The idea was to test both ends of the scale, not a hybrid. Which Rampager lends itself to being. Rabid and Carrion have a very obvious condition damage focus.

Power-crit builds favour the tool belt skill exclusively, if I had of used that in the testing it would’ve skewed the results.

Short fuse not working would’ve meant I’d have to take explosive powder, which means it would’ve given an advantage to the power-crit build anyway. Didn’t realise however Short fuse wasn’t working however.

I already explained precise sights, it benefits a power-crit build as vulnerability doesn’t apply to conditions, this test was done in favour of condition damage, as I mentioned. I didn’t want to buff direct damage anymore than was needed so as to keep things even. This test was also done before the question.

Burning isn’t applied by the grenades without incendiary powder, which I wouldn’t be taking unless I ran rabid, which I wouldn’t run because it does less dps per nade than Carrion. Bleeding on a cooldown can not be applied in large enough quantities, without it being on a very long fight for it to catch a power-crit build in DPS.

If Freeze grenade does the exact same damage, then it doesn’t matter that I used it, it doesn’t modify the results in anyway. I did it anyway because in a fight you would use and it still does damage, unlike flash bangs.

Not saying my test was perfect, I did say It is not conclusive but it lends itself to power-crit being a superior set-up. The whole idea of the test was to give as many advantages to a condition damage build as I could with the focus being on condition damage to see if it could get close to power-crit, it can’t, a proper power-crit kills in less than 7 seconds easily (my actual build does it in 6.5 on average).

Edit: The only difference in dps stats is the 20% crit damage, and carrion giving 3k HP, the rest of the DPS stats are on the whole evenly distributed. In hind-sight I should’ve used Knight’s, but condition damage builds might not run crit (I know I wouldn’t) I’d run power, so it’s not a huge deal.

Edit2: I might want to reiterate, this was from another thread prior to this one, this test wasn’t done to directly answer the OP’s question, it was done to answer mine, chill out.

Grenade kit is like the best kit the Engineer has damage wise, when traited appropriately for all game modes (PvE, WvW and sPvP).

Bomb kit does do better condition damage if you can get them to sit in burning bomb and dazing bomb. The bomb kit is amazing at controlling points, the grenade kit is just as good though and can be used in an open field more effectively.

If I’m running condition damage, I run a bomb kit, if power grenades. I find that to be the best way to divide them, otherwise they’re kind of interchangeable.

To be 100% sure of my claims that condition damage grenades weren’t as strong as power-crit grenades, I did a test. I did 5 attempts of a target dummy with each build for a total of ten attempts, the experiment went like this;

Traits were;

-30 in explosives, taking shrapnel (would take incendiary for power-crit build, but for the sake of testing, I didn’t), short fuse, which favours condition damage and grenadier.

-30 in firearms to max out condition damage, even if in a real build I wouldn’t, due to synergy between 10 alchemy and 10 tools. Vulnerability on crit wasn’t taken as it would favour power-crit build.

-10 points in alchemy avoiding the crit damage from tools.

This test is basically done in favour of condition damage, as I could squeeze some more damage (and I do in my actual builds) from the power-crit build, but again for the sake of testing I used this set-up.

Damage rotation consisted of: shrapnel grenade first, chill grenade, poison grenade (which doesn’t do much for a direct damage build), four ‘normal grenades’, if still not dead, shrapnel again followed by ‘normal grenades’ until golem’s death. This was all done on the highest armoured dummy (heavy golem).

Power-crit stats: 3,273 attack, 49% crit, 170% crit damage, 300 condition damage and 30% condition duration. Rune of the Ogre was used and Zerker amulet with Zerker jewel.

1. 7.8
2. 7.6
3. 7.7
4. 8.1
5. 7.5

Average time to kill. 7.74 seconds

Condition damage stats: 2,829, 18% crit, 150% crit damage, 1,405 condition damage, 30% condition duration. Rune of the afflicted was used, Carrion amulet with Carrion jewel.

1. 8.8
2. 8.6
3. 8.5
4. 8.3
5. 8.9

Average time to kill. 8.62 seconds.

This is by no-means conclusive, but it illustrates my point accurately. As you can see the condition damage isn’t far behind, but considering the entire test was done in favour of condition damage to the point where I used runes I wouldn’t normally, traits I wouldn’t normally, attacked the heaviest dummy, used a rotation that favours conditions, it in reality would be a larger gap if you factor in grenade barrage as well. You do net an extra 3k Hp though.

From another thread.

Basically in really long fights you might be able to close that gap, but It seems power-crit will always do more DPS if specced into it appropriately.

Edited for clarity, missing an important line, which I cut from the original post (by accident), may clear some issues up, apologies, I realise now some of the confusion may have stemmed from this.

I mostly agree with potato, you sacrifice zero mobility when using the healing turret and if you don’t need the water blast you can pick it up and make it a 15 second cooldown (making it the shortest minus a 30 point tool med-kit).

It only requires timing and practise to use effectively and a tiny bit more timing if you can time the detonate/pick-up just after it ‘fires’ to get a free regen buff as well. You don’t even need accelerant-packed turrets to make healing turret amazing.

The only thing I disagree with Potato on, is the amount the water combo field heals for it only heals for 1.3k for me + the 5k heal bringing it up to 6.5kish + regen. Not even close to 3k.

Prelude.3817:

Edit: oh and I want engineer to learn to actually hit with poison dart too. Engi needs shooting lessons.

Hahah I kind of agree, shooting from the hip is so unprofessional! I find using poison dart is best used like a shotgun, get real close and use it.

I second the overly short duration bleed, and feel it needs a buff, but that’s about it. The rest of the pistol kit is fine, it’s just the AA is really average damage and slow.

Engi does absurd damage in some other specs. 10k grenade barrage crit, it’s not easy to pull-off, you need the right target and some timing, but our damage can be very very significant when built properly, so I wouldn’t say the class.

gkaare.8576:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

gkaare.8576:

The turret itself does not provide a water field and has not provided one, if it ever did, for a long time. It’s the toolbelt skill that provides the water combo field.

Wrong. Equip Healing Turret. Press 6 (Healing Turret). Wait Half a second. Press F1 (Detonate Turret). Enjoy Blast + Water Field combo.

This guy is absolutely correct. Not sure if it’s intended because it doesn’t say anything in the tooltip, but it definitely works.

I do this all the time as well, it actually makes the healing turret for me.

Casia.4281:

RapBreon.9836:

I’m arguing that grenade kit is not valid underwater, unless you built specifically for it, but you’d be kittened above water to compensate with a condition centric build, aka no way a condition engineer can play underwater, the rifle engi can, because the harpoon gun (and grenades) scale with DD better than condi damage.

I’m not 100% sure what the last half of your post was getting at. But what you describe is a fantasy situation in which you are purpose built for doing what you’re doing, which a DD engineer could do and would do better, that shouldn’t be the case, I shouldn’t need to leave the BG every time Capricorn comes on, build for the only viable condition underwater build (at which point might as well just make it a power one) and load back in. This has been my point from post 1.

combining these two points.
You are saying, a DD engi is more powerful underwater, and it is. when I got p/p many traits are pretty pistol specific in the first place. so, it shouldnt be any suprise.
But, then you state that unless you focus on DD and traits for grenades, they are not viable underwater. Which is insane. Grenades, even when traited for conditions, etc, are way way way stronger then any other underwater weapon set. they are completely unbalanced. You entire argument around this point, is based of an assertion, they are unplayable if they don’t focus on a bugged skill. Which is not remotely true. crit/damage grenadier under water is completely broken. yes, its stronger. its completely broken. NOTHING in the game comes close it its power. Grenades normally outdamage everything else by 2-3times. Even un-traited, and with +cond, grenades are by far the most powerful water weapon. Add in grenadier, and more focus on crit gear, and you outpace everything by 5-6times.

If your argument is just, engi needs better underwater options. Then yes that is simple enough. But basing any balance changes or issues around a skill that is bugged, is incorrect.

Could always have elixir gun for underwater setup. That is conditions partially as well.

Coming back to square one, I do not feel a completely untraited grenade kit is 2-3x more powerful than other classes underwater, maybe power grenades, but I reject the notion that untraited condition grenades are that powerful. Considering I’ve seen some absurd numbers from some players (illusionary mariner critting for like 7k). The power of the grenade kit doesn’t validate it as a way to play a condition Engineer anyway, it only proves that the grenade kit needs tuning and leaves the Engineer without a legitimate underwater condition damage option (point from post 1).

Elixir gun isn’t about damage really, so it’s not really an option and still leaves me in the same awkward position. It probably doesn’t help that underwater in general hasn’t received the love that on land has, so I expect to see heaps of underwater balancing changes in the future once the above water stuff is figured out.

@Gussbuss; I did WvW with it once, I ran it for shield block exclusively as necro’s ( I think it was them at least) had this obsession with gripping me in :P It did feel useful there, but I’d like to see our only ‘melee’ option be useful for actual meleeing :P

Casia.4281:

You seem to be too focused on dps. Power/crit grenades do more dps then cond. cond focused would play more into the CC and dot damage of course.
If you want burst dps, yes, you shouldn’t go conditions. conds dont work on doors or seige weapons either of course.

Then you are intent on focusing on one or the other. Despite both pistol and grenade damage is split nearly evenly. Traits pushing one or the other in scaling higher.

Might does give power and cond damage. And perma fury is pretty easy to get on an engineer as well. And for point of reference, retaliation is power based.

I mean, are we arguing about how grenades which are clearly not balanced in water at all, are good are not good? If your basing balance and your build around a clearly bugged skill. That is a pretty large mistake.
I mean, stack crit damage, and crit. Use grenadier and h.g.H. Thrown elixirs in water have the secondary effect of letting you force them to pop. this makes dropping them on yourself much easier. So you can stack 9 stacks of might with ease.
Add supply drop “I-Win” button" and you can 5v1 as a grenadier/alch in water.
You will be dealing 5-6times as much damage as anyone else does single target, and doing it AOE.
That is clearly not balanced. And if you shouldn’t be arguing other builds are weak, because this one is clearly broken.

But if both builds use the same kit, they apply the same conditions…so which one kills quicker is superior as you need grenadier to use the grenade kit effectively, so both ways to play get 30% duration to conditions, including chill, which includes the CC you mentioned (only thing you gain is poison damage and bleed, which are forms of damage). The only concrete advantage is the extra 3kish Hp carrion provides over zerker. I don’t think “I’m too focused” on it when both ways to play use the same skills, but one does it quicker. If we were comparing different kits, then yes your point would be valid.

Pistol damage is not split evenly, I’ve done multiple tests with friends and it’s always burning and bleeding at the top with explosive shot coming third. The pistol weapons are designed from a condition damage stand-point.

I’m arguing that grenade kit is not valid underwater, unless you built specifically for it, but you’d be kittened above water to compensate with a condition centric build, aka no way a condition engineer can play underwater, the rifle engi can, because the harpoon gun (and grenades) scale with DD better than condi damage.

I’m not 100% sure what the last half of your post was getting at. But what you describe is a fantasy situation in which you are purpose built for doing what you’re doing, which a DD engineer could do and would do better, that shouldn’t be the case, I shouldn’t need to leave the BG every time Capricorn comes on, build for the only viable condition underwater build (at which point might as well just make it a power one) and load back in. This has been my point from post 1.

Apologies Cempa, I got side-tracked.

This is what I use in tournaments currently;

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/engineer#14|0|3187|4052|6383|253|4065|30|1422|1792|1885|20|1866|1429|0|0|0|0|0|10|1015|0|0|10|1446|0|0|0|0|0|28032|0|49981|49981|49981|49981|49981|25790|21080|48789|0|0|0|

I’ve tried other variations, but find this one to be quite good for duelling, roaming (perma swiftness) and team-fighting. I test and modify traits and utilities regularly so it’s a work in progress. It’s squishy though, but the rifle grants enough control in conjunction with 8 second chills from the grenade kit to survive quite a while, perma vigor helps too. You could go 30 into firearms, which would boost damage more, taking 10 out of alchemy or tools, but I find the perma swiftness-vigor fast kit swapping to be very valuable and hard to give up, I’d like to do more conclusive testing on which is more useful in the future but it’s difficult.