Guild Wars 2

Dayra.7405:

Deviation you can see at https://leaderboards.guildwars2.com/de/na/wvw

How did I miss that…? Don’t mind me as I bookmark and +1 your post.

Thank you!

Oh. My bad.

The math you used in the first post is essentially correct. It’s just that the deviation is the Ratings Deviation assigned to each server. So, say JQ has a RD of 120 (No idea what the actual number is at the moment, but it’s always positive), the new math would allow for JQ’s Glicko2 score to adjust by:

120 * 0.45 + 10 = 64

It would then roll a random number from -1 to 1, multiply that by 64, and add that to JQ’s Glicko2 score while deciding matchups. So for matchmaking purposes, JQ would be 2,131.477 +- 64 = 2067.477 to 2195.477

However, if the RD was greater than 200, it would cap the +- at 100.

After doing that to every server, it would take the “new” ratings, and order them into matches like the way tiers originally worked.

As to the actual RD’s of each server, I have no idea where you would find them. There was an Anet post a couple months back that had them, but they’ve changed a lot since then. And I don’t particularily want to go through and try to calculate them all from there by hand. There’s also trial and error to try and get the same spreadsheet Anet just posted in the blog, but that would take more time than it’s worth.

If you’re desperate to know them, you could PM Weris from mos.millenium to ask for the current values, but I’d rather not bother him.

Not sure if that helps any. I’ll check tomorrow to see if I failed horribly at understanding your question again. >__<

Fuzzion.2504:

LOL on the link. I did not understand what the professor was saying on glicko 2 system.

Btw can someone please explain the maths to us non-math based PHD holders.

Umm…to try and make a long story short:

Each server has the ratings that you see on mos.millenium. Glicko2 looks at the ratings of each server in a match and predicts what the score should be base off the rankings. Based off how the score compares to the predicted scores, it shifts the rankings values to more closely match with what would predict what actually happened. The larger the uncertainty in a server’s rankings (the Ratings Deviation), the more drastic the shift possible. Whenever a score shifts (every week for WvW), the deviation should get smaller.

That’s not 100% accurate, but it’s close enough to get the concept across. Someone feel free to chime in if I messed up horribly somewhere.

I think it’s because 42 is the answer to everything.

Anyways, I’m pretty sure the deviation it’s talking about it the Ratings Deviation attached to each server with Glicko2. It’s not how much the server moves, so much as how unsure the ratings are that the ratings are right. The longer WvW goes on, the smaller that value should be.

Key word here is “should”….

Aratoa.7398:

You’re misrepresenting yourself. That is a fine screen shot but there were a number of times you had 12-15 people. They might not have been your guild (PAWG? Couple others) but it wasn’t as bad as you make it out to me.

But the main reason I’m posting is the bolded is hilarious. Yarr has been emote spamming since the moment this match started. One of the first things I said in TS when this match started was “Did I ever do anything to Yarr?” because in literally the first engagement (Me alone getting rolled by 10-15 FC, mostly Yarr) I had a bunch of Yarr members /dancing, jumping and /laughing on my corpse. This has continued every time as well. This doesn’t bother me, it’s part of the game but it’s funny you posted that when your guild has been the one I’ve seen doing it the most.

Huh? As far as I recall, by the time HoD had gotten back to the tower there were 2 members of PAWG that showed up. I think there were about 3 other people that showed up after that, but I was mainly refering to the whole “run back to their spawn camp” part, which only happened when there was nobody there but 7 Yarr and 20+ HoD. Sorry if that came out a little misrepresentational, but I was…mildly surprised that someone was calling out people for not committing to a fight where the numbers were ~3 times in the enemy’s favour.

As to the emote spamming, what I wrote is true. Personally, the only emote I use is /sit when I’m watching something from the sidelines and there’re no dead bodies within 600 range of me. For the rest of the guild, as far as I’m aware, we generally only use them when the other person already spammed it. I think there’s 1 or 2 people in our guild that will do it without much provocation, and I actually won’t defend them, ‘cause I’m not that hypocritical. If it’s any consolation, most of us have “Really? Why would you…?” facepalm moments in TS when it happens like that.

Other than that, if you didn’t do anything troll worthy to a Yarr member and you had 3+ people spam emotes at your corpse, it was probably a case of mistaken identity. And for that, I apologize.

Edit: I need to learn to format faster. It’s sad that that I can get ninja’d within 5 minutes…

SuicideByTaco.5408:

Jesse.4631:

Anyone up for duels or 2v2’s-5v5’s, so bored xD feel free to whisper me

Funny how this guild uses words that they probably don’t even understand like 2v2’s-5v5’s since all they do is run back to their spawn camp when they have an equal fight or if they r losing which is always hence the running away from their part FC has a lot of respect from all of HoD and Kain for their great numbers they have been putting out and the great fights but I gotta say they r better off without this guild if they want to move forward into the ranks they really give u a bad name gl out there HoD and FC look forward to more fights! ^^

I don’t usually like to post with smack-talk, but you’re literally begging for it with a run-on like that and I aim to please. Based off the time of your post, I can guess exactly which “spawn camp” fight you’re refering to with an “equal fight”. And, guess what? I’ve come to give you a lesson in math — how to count higher than when you only use your fingers! You can use your toes when things get complicated! I’d help with your English too, but I don’t have nearly that much free time.

If you look at the picture below (Silent’s screenshot), you’ll notice that I counted a grand total of 7 people on our side. I stopped counting your side at 20 because, frankly, my eyes started to hurt and I didn’t want you to have to put your hands in your pockets to keep up. And we still managed to kill some of you before you all ran back into the tower and hid.

We just play to have fun. We run around trying to find roughly even fights, and then we YOLO it while laughing at each other for dying. I’m not sure why you seem to think we bring the server down.

5.5/10 Try harder.

@Everybody else. Try and keep it clean guys. I’ve seen a lot of players running around that I can respect, but the number of emote-spammers is insane this week. I can understand spamming emotes to try and get a group to engage you, or because they were already spamming them. But the whole “Let’s emote the dead bodies when we tripled their numbers!” is getting annoying. >__>

On a semi-positive non-glitch related note, holy crap. Props to whichever KING mesmer that was in FC BL by Arah’s Hope a few minutes ago (it was a female Sylvari, not Seven Mirror). Mind you, I feel bad for my under-leveled ally that came in at the end. I don’t think he was expecting to get stomped in a 2v1.

But the overall fight was wonderful, thank you! I did not expect that fight to go for nearly that long, and the mutual agreement to a draw (?) was amazing.

I wish my skills were that awesome. Keep up the great fights!

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

Most people in Tier 8 don’t care about WvW. Most people that do care about WvW move around to the places where the competition’s still happening. You are too lazy to transfer, and most of the people on your servers do not care about you or WvW.

If you can show me long queues and constantly full battlegrounds for at least two days between monday and thursday, I’ll consider that you have a point. Until then, you belong on the losing end.

A civil yet assertive debater? My God, I guess I’ll have to give this a shot regardless. Thank you for adding to the threads contents. As to the debate:

Yes, there are probably a lot of people in T8 who don’t care about WvW. But I know there’s still a fair number who do. I would not see queues ever if this were not the case. I do see queues on occasion. Never for very long, and never on every map, I’ll give you that. However, T2 might even be hard-pressed to live up to your challenge. T4 and below wouldn’t ever meet your challenge.

This leads to the main problem with your argument of lazyness. “If you aren’t lazy, and you care about WvW, you would transfer to a tier where they have long queue times,” is essentially what you have said.

Let me try to explain the fatal flaws in this way of thinking. You see, it only encourages people to bandwagon to about 9 servers if they wish to WvW in order to ensure full coverage and queue times. The problem with encouraging queue times, is that queue times mean the people who wish to WvW cannot get into WvW.

From a quality of service point of view, do you think ANet should encourage people who WvW to flock to servers with long queue times, or encourage people to balance themselves between the servers and minimize queue times? Who wants to play a game they may or may not be able to play when they try to play it?

On top of that, many players enjoy the atmosphere that WvW on the small scale affords. There’s a sense of banding together and community that you won’t find on servers where you are one faceless zergling (albiet, probably not a mindless zergling) among the horde. Not to mention culling is almost non-existant in lower tiers.

Now, to your assertion that “we belong on the losing end,” I’m going to have to ask again if you read even the post that you quoted. We aren’t complaining that we’re losing. We are complaining that the T8 server anomaly that used to be DR, was then Kain, and is now SF, cannot get out of T8. If you replaced SF with JQ next week, they would still probably have more than a single week of JQ curbstomping T8 before it advanced to T7.

That is the issue. If a server that belongs in T7 or above falls to T8, it cannot get out, and a potentially better suited server for T8 cannot get in.

Please, do not just fling around accusations that we are simply “lazy” because we enjoy true T8 gameplay. Do not just say “T8 deserves to lose” when we are not whining about losing. There are people from SF in this thread in support of it. Do you think they are complaining about “losing”?

If you continue the debate right after this, my apologies for any delayed response. Sleep calls me.

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

Ok, let me break this down for you:

Tiers are in place to make the people who want to feel like they did something get to feel like they did something. It also keeps it at least somewhat organized, so that the same servers will will always be accusing the same other servers of hacking the game to fly. It makes it so that you can easily ignore most of the complaints that come from sore losers.

You can’t change up the fact that Tier 8 is where the servers that don’t care belong. What you can do is go to a server in a bracket where people do care. No matter what A-net does, there will always be people that do not care about WvW, and they’ll usually cluster together on one or two servers.

This isn’t a problem though. To do a total reset would be temporary at best, until the best got back to the top, and the worst drifted back to the bottom. And even then, it’s simply not worth doing, because it’s effecting the two farthest ends (and thus the smallest amount) of the spectrum.

If you made the matchups completely random, by an A-net employee simply drawing server names out of a hat and making that order the next WvW bracket order, the Tier 8 servers would still lose to everyone but each other, all the time.

While random drawing would certainly shake up the stagnant bits for the very bottom and very top servers, it would shake up a system that works for the other six brackets. Your problem with things not being to your liking in your bracket, on your server, is simple. Leave your server/bracket. If you don’t want to do that, there’s other games out there (DAoC) where you’ll find a lot more people who enjoy the type of gaming that WvW provides you, and in all likelihood, you’ll enjoy it more.

You know, for a second there, I was really happy. When I read “let me break this down for you,” I thought someone had finally come into this thread in opposition to it who was willing to back up their claims. And you did. However, you also crushed that joy as I continued reading.

You only proved me right.

With every counter argument you put forward, you only proved that you clearly didn’t take the time to read the entire thread. Could random people stop coming into this thread and talk like we’re asking for a ratings reset, or for a round-robin, psuedo-random opponent pool. This thread is debating the issue in ratings gap between T8 and T7, created primarily through lack of a lower rating floor for the bottom tier, along with the damage free transfers caused. The resulting problem from this issue is that servers in T8 who belong in tiers above T8 (DR, then Kain, now SF) cannot advance at a viable rate, taking months to advance even with continued blowouts.

This thread is not about the ratings reset! The removal of the ratings reset merely caused this thread to come about as a way of saying “Okay, we get that was a bad idea. However, the problem a ratings reset would have lessened in T8 still persists. What else can we do to fix it?”

This thread is not about T8 not caring about WvW. We would not have made this thread if that was the case. This thread is not about us being too lazy to transfer! This argument has been attacked by everyone still in T8 at one point or another, and re-typing it here would simply add another two pages to this post.

So, again: please post more than a drive-by comment. When you appear to have read the thread and seem up-to-date, I’ll take your arguments seriously. Until then, thanks for the bump!

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

WvW was never designed or even remotely intended to be balanced.

It’s a numbers game, and always will be, and it simply doesn’t matter enough to deserve any dev’s attention at all. Everyone who enjoys it should either go to real PvP, or back to DAoC.

Huh? So…the tiers are in place for what reason? As you’ve stated, WvW isn’t supposed to be balanced, especially in regards to the numbers a server can field. This leaves me grasping at straws to figure out why we have a tier system that seperates the servers based on score (for the most part).

Since score is primarily influenced by the numbers a server can field, the final score a server gets is supposed to influence what rating a server has, and the rating a server has influences what tier the server is in, do you truly believe that a semblance of balance was never intended to happen?

Please, post more insightful comments that at least imply you’ve read through the thread and thought about it. Drive-by postings that shoot down a perceived discussion that isn’t even happening are generally frowned upon. Based off the times of your post history, the length of your post, and what your post actually had in it, I’d be surprised if you read anything more than the thread title and the OP post.

Also, you state that the best course of action for people like us, who do actually enjoy WvW, is to ignore WvW and go do something else? The two alternative options you’ve given seem to include either doing something so far removed from WvW as to alienate people who enjoy WvW, or leaving the game for another.

So…your response is either “You’re not having fun correctly. You’re supposed to have fun like this,” or “ANet doesn’t want your increase in revenue.” Yay for sound business strategies.

In parting, bumping the thread was appreciated. Thank you.

Back to page 1 with you!

Yeah, I’d have to agree with Advent at the moment. Super-Asuran-Ninja stuff not withstanding, T8 giving up and moving on first seems the most likely. Hopefully ANet will at least respond to this thread soon (with more than an auto-generated message!). Preferably before this thread hits its tenth page from thread bumps…

However, at the current rate things are going, there’s not going to be anybody left in T8 to respond to. As much as it’s only anecdotal evidence, easily half of the people I once knew on T8 have already moved on. That’s never a good sign.

Just helping keep the thread bumped before turning in.

SoggyFrog.4170:

I dropped a summary on the gw2 reddit, please let me know if there’s anything I missed or could clarify:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/18wb2i/when_the_wvw_ratings_break/

And upvote, of course.

+1!

SoggyFrog, you are my hero. When I start my religion about you, are there any particular rituals you wish to be practiced?

Jokes aside, you not only summed everything up perfectly, this problem doesn’t even directly affect you for the most part. That post would have taken at least 2 hours to make, if not 5, considering you must’ve had to have read through the entire thread while typing it up to hit all of the key points so well.

From everyone in T8, thank you.

As SoggyFrog pointed out, this sub-forum increases the challenge of keeping this thread alive, but we cannot let that stop us! Also, would anyone else be willing to follow through with SoggyFrog’s idea? “Concise” is not my forte.

I’m not sure if I’m amused or saddened by the thread’s move to the Suggestions Sub-forum. I’m amused because it means someone read it and realized (hopefully) that we are trying to discuss ways of fixing things, and it means they’ve decided we’re being nice enough in here that they’ll allow us to continue seeing the light of day. However, this move does complicate things somewhat.

Keeping a thread bumped in the Suggestions Sub-forum is going to be a pain in the posterior. It has everybody able to come here, not just the WvW crowd, which means we’ll have many more threads to compete with for space on the front page. Granted, most threads also only get close to 500 thread views before they sail off into the distance, but the shear volume of new threads created is going to be a virtual quicksand if I ever saw one.

To anyone who is reading this and cares at all for what this thread is about, please, try to get everyone you can to come on here and keep it bumped with civil discussion and debate. Many people who could care about this thread will never find it in this sub-forum, since many avoid this place on principle. Yes, there are a lot of really good suggestions in this place, but many of them also amount to “Please add 10GB of data to the game tomorrow. Kthx by.” I’m not sure about most people, but I seem to come very close to developing headaches whenever I browse this place for too long.

Also, SniffyCube, if you’re reading this, I have a minor favour to ask. Is it possible to change the thread title after ANet has manually set it to what it is? The current title works wonders in the WvW Sub-forum, but half of the people who come here would be the PvE only crowd and have no idea what “tier 8 ratings” is talking about. Is there any way the title could be changed to something along the lines of “Request: A Fix For the Bottom Tier Ratings In WvW”?

Cosmic.6047:

//Snip! ’Cause character limits suck//

//Facepalm//

Why couldn’t I find that when I went searching for it? Thank you! I couldn’t figure out what equation they used to transform the scores for the life of me. I suspect you have given me a play thing for the next couple hours.

+1

What’s this? We’ve broken the 10,000 thread view count and nobody mentioned it when they bumped the thread in celebration?!

Let’s see this thread to the 20,000 mark guys!

Guapo El.1754:

I agree with the issue being the system and not the team SF. For all the people who say stop crying and move…what does that fix? the system is still broken.

+1

A new face! Not only that, but a new face who realizes what the issue in this thread is? What witchcraft is this? Err…jokes aside, I’m glad to see someone else joining in the debate. (And the thread bumping!) Keep coming out of the shadows guys! The light doesn’t hurt…much.

Ynot.8397:

I thought a simple thread bump was in order. Maybe someone who actually does something at ANet will read it.

Much appreciated bumping power! We will not let this thread die!

It’s odd, but I’m actually sad that nobody posted in counter to this thread since I checked last. It’s much easier to keep a thread bumped when engaged in a duel of wits.

Also, even though I could not agree with your parting statement any more if I tried, I’ll try my hand at a defence of ANet for anybody reading in an attempt to keep the thread to a naive and positive atmosphere. Wish me luck:

I’d be shocked to find out nobody on ANet’s WvW team had yet to read the thread. I’d even take a gamble at saying someone truly high up in the WvW team might have even read this thread by now. After all, any development team that truly cared about their baby would have to come on the forums every now and then and see what the players are saying. The question is whether they have the rank, power, and authority in the entirety of ANet to respond with something more than an auto-generated response, and whether they bother to read this thread.

Based on the distinct lack of such responses by them in this thread, I’m assuming that’s the issue. Maybe I’m suffering from delusions of grandeur, but this thread has been on the front page repeatedly for a week now, and nobody has been hit by the ban-hammer yet. Someone in ANet must have been curious by now. However, the issue does get a bit more confusing when you factor in that they might not be allowed to respond at all, even in situations where they cannot disagree more. But until this thread is locked, and while I remain unbanned, I will assume they are merely muzzled by bureaucracy.

Back to the first page with you! Twenty views to get to 10,000 guys!

TheGhostBaron.1250:

Takerukun, you sir are a shiny ray of light in an otherwise muddy pool of delusion.

I’ve been reading ignorant comments of us being complainers, bad players, lazy for not transfering out of a tier 8 server and have been trying to find the perfect way to respond that wasn’t snarky or insulting. And thankfully you come along and sum it all up in yet another of your post.

Flattery will get you everywhere.

But yeah, you have no idea how hard it was not break out the snark for some of that. Well, actually, you do, seeing as how you’re posting about the exact same issues. But you know what I mean?

TheGhostBaron.1250:

ET and FC don’t care if we lose, would we like to win yes, but if we get out played so be it. We just want the chance at the win, we’ve discovered that we can’t beat the current SF, the reasons don’t matter. SF has proven it week after week. Even if we get beat by every new server that comes to T8, atleast going into the week we’ll feel like we have a chance, as it is now when the new week starts we know we have around 3 to 4 hours of us winning before SF really shows up and then all is lost.

So, for every other server player that reads this thread, take it for what it is, us frustrated not with SF for beating us(more power tot hem and I wish them luck for when the finally move on, if ever) we’re frustrated with a system so broken that it doesn’t give us the chance for anything but to be stomped week in and week out by a server that should have already gone its seperate way from ET and FC.

And Takerukun hit the nail on the head when he said that when someone from Anet says “We get it and we’re looking into it” we’ll let this thread die. Once I see those words from someone at Anet they can lock and delete the thread for all I care because at that point it will have served its purpose.

+1

Yeah, I’m hoping that by this point, people realize we aren’t complaining about SF. We’re complaining about a system that keeps SF in place when they clearly don’t belong where they are. Yes, they’re replacement might also not belong in T8, but we won’t know that until they drop and face us. And at the current rate that’s projected to come about, there won’t be anyone left in T8 to even test this idea out when it happens.

By the way, as much as this only partially relates to the discussion at hand, it’s probably worth mentioning. I’m having more fun fighting off differing opinions and trolls in this thread than I am when I can log into the game for WvW. That might be worth thinking about…

Firstly, we’re fewer than 200 thread views away from the 10,000 mark. Awesome job guys! Keep up the great work all the way to this thread’s tenth page!

FilthyRat.4652:

Finally, some one that understands the game is trying to explain it to everyone else….just be careful if they disagree with you Big brother may be called in to erase your argument. There are many thinned skinned people out there that would like see your post go bye bye and get you a -1 (can’t reference cause I will get another -1 today…only 4 so far when I thought i was being ok)

Wait…so you’re saying that someone who truly understands this game realizes that the only way to properly play this game is either to get transfers, or transfer yourself? I’m not sure I fully comprehend the profound implications of this idea, but don’t you think that’s a terrible way of looking at things from a quality of service point of view?

“Oh, you can access WvW from the T8 servers, but you shouldn’t play on it. Transfer if you want to actually play WvW.”

Not to sound rude, but could you support your claims with some kind of evidence that has more cohesion than a three year old still suffering from egocentrism?

SoggyFrog.4170:

Interestingly enough, the argument is so bad that you can actually work the analogy in reverse to rebuke Asglarek’s political philosophy, which presumably everyone is supposed to share.

“Why can’t everyone just be a privileged white guy?!”

But yes, the issue is obviously the 300-point gap and unless you’ve personally worked a server to overcome a 300-point gap without resorting to bandwagon transfers you’re really not in a position to criticize those complaining about it.

I’d realized his argument was bad, but you almost made me laugh out loud when I read that. Thank you for brightening my day.

insanemaniac.2456:

yeah but with the whole quoting multiple posts… hes just a speed bump

The debate train doesn’t stop for speed bumps. We crush them as we go by.

insanemaniac.2456:

//Snip! ’Cause character limits suck.//
stop entering this thread and posting that were whining about losing.

^ What Rikkity said. Please, to the people who think we’re whining about “losing” or “lasting in other tiers”, quote us for future reference. If you can’t even do something so mind-numbingly easy as quoting the offending post for ridicule, your argument looks made-up at best.

And Bedstain, as much as ANet probably does “get it”, they have yet to so much as post “We get it.” When they get around to doing that, we will be happy to let this thread sink to the bowels of this forum. However, until such a time that that single condition is met, we will not allow this thread to reach the third page of WvW threads.

Ynot.8397:

FilthyRat.4652:

Think people are trying to say is what will happen when at tier 7 team move down to tier 8. Most likely the same thing they are competitive in tier 7 and not sure the outcome will be any different.

But SF lost in T8 the first week it dropped down and barely won the second week. The week before in T7 SF barely lost out to HoD. Now SF is crushing T8. Something changed in SF. They are clearly doing better than before so they deserve a chance in T7. For all we know they have twice as many players as before and can storm past T7.

^ What Ynot said. Who knows, maybe you’re right. Maybe there is no third server that will fit into T8. However, the first two weeks SF was down in T8 were the best weeks of WvW T8 has had in over 5 months. It didn’t matter that FC won the first week. It didn’t matter that SF won the last week. All sides had roughly an equal showing for the duration of the match. After that, for whatever reason, something changed.

So, forgive us our delusions. Those first two weeks have given us hope that – just maybe – another T7 server would be a more balanced match up than SF. But with the current ratings pit that this thread is about, we won’t get a chance to test this until everyone in T8 has given up and transferred away. That will not be a test of the current argument. That will be everyone who thinks we are just whining getting a confirmational bias based off of a self-fulfilling, never ending spiral.

On a somewhat related note, I feel like this thread is getting filibustered by all sides. Thank you to everyone who is doing so, as it keeps this thread bumped. Keep up the great work!

insanemaniac.2456:

if he had actually read the thread, he would realize the issue isnt population, its that theres a nearly 300 point gap in the ratings… i dont even know why youre responding to his post ><

1) Free thread bump. Much the same reason I waited to respond to you on purpose.
2) Educating the uneducated is fun.
3) Trolls are good bedtime snacks.

geekanerd.4123:

No. I say don’t bother. I had a fleeting moment where I thought about going after that post, as well, but it’s so silly I can’t help but think I’d be equally as silly taking it seriously.

Just my two cents.

Ha! I probably won’t unless he trys to back up his claims. Then it’s free thread bumps.

Ynot.8397:

Wow… I don’t know if you are trolling or just that dense.

//Guild banter. Please ignore.//

’Bout time you chimed in here again! :P

My laptop can’t even run TS for the next week, so it’s the only way I know the guild’s still alive!

//Edit: We’re about to break 10,000 thread views guys! Awesome job!//

Asglarek.8976:

After reading through the entirety of this thread I’ve come to the conclusion that most who offer some semblance of a solution have taking the position of punishing the successful servers which reminds me of the mentality of the OWS (bowel)movement.

I just wonder how any of these servers could feel an ounce of pride knowing they couldnt use the metrics everyone else has used that have been on top whether it was t1 -t8.

Take Kainege for instance they were bottom of the wv3 ranking just 2 months ago now they are on the threshold of moving in to t1 so you guys in t8 do some self reflection and you’ll discover its your crying and quitting mentality that’s your problem not your competition.

So lets change the metrics to me just reeks of poor sportsmanship.

Nice job with the complete post edit. I’m wondering if the way I format my posts prevents quote updates, or if these forums simply don’t allow it. I haven’t seen something to compare it with, so I couldn’t actually tell you.

In counter to your hastily thrown together last-minute-argument, let me just remind you that what you just said literally amounts to the following:

“Why can’t you just get massive free transfers as well? Kain did! You guys just reek of poor sportsmanship!”

Do I really need to go on to shoot this argument down…?

FilthyRat.4652:

And look at your teammate that made post right before you about changing SF score so pretty sure it wasn’t one of us.

My apologies if this sounds a little defensive on my part, but did you really just imply what I think you just did? Especially after I made a point of stating multiple times in my post that I thought that it would be a terrible idea to actually send in a false report, did I actually just read what I thought I just read?

I even sent a PM to Weris about the request to deliberately avoid this. And yet, when I stop by here to read the thread, I find someone has the audacity to come into this thread not 5 posts after this and accuse me of such folly? Do you just get a kick out of trying to stir up conflict, or is your reading comprehension simply that bad?

If I misread the tone of your post, please inform to the contrary of my current understanding and I’ll take back everything I just said as a simple misunderstanding. But don’t come in here, slander my name, and – more importantly – endeavour to derail this thread in an infantile attempt to try and start a fight.

Maybe it was someone from FC, but I will not accept the idea that someone was stupid enough submit a false report simply to follow through with a hypothetical idea in my post that was surrounded by a giant “Don’t do this if you value your self worth at all” sign.

On the bright side, I will thank you for bumping the thread, as well as giving me a reason to bump it again without seeming too desperate. And if I didn’t misread the tone of your post, and you come back here to try and back it up, I’ll thank you again for the thread bump.

Detharos.3157:

This situation is rapidly decaying into yet another case of it taking a combination of Eredon’s Terrace and Ferguson’s Crossing throwing in the towel and going on vacation from WvW for a couple weeks paired with some miraculous drop in the next highest server’s rating to get the big dog of this tier to advance.

The ascent is miserably slow, extremely demoralizing for those on these servers who love WvW, and no matter how hard we try arguments seem to break out of no where in the forums because we’re all getting frustrated with these painfully slow weeks of domination. With the frustrations increasing its coupled with this feeling that you have to keep a tight lid on everything you type else face the risk of increasingly common forum infractions. (Which in my opinion are handed out far too readily whenever “Arena Net” is typed in a paragraph in a non-positive light.)

Take a look for yourselves, with near identical scores in the past weeks Sorrow’s Furnace got 50+ rating increases every time. Yet last week despite a rather unchanged ending score, the rating was a mere 14+, and will likely continue to decrease unless 600+ ppt starts to be achieved. Yet the more we throw in the towel, simply the more it encourages hardcore WvW players of Eredon’s Terrace and Ferguson’s Crossing to transfer to a different server as the trend is that WvW match-ups never work out well down here. Something that this whole “new era” of transfer fees was supposed to be discouraging, not encouraging as it is.

+1

Frustration is increasing across the board, and I don’t see it dying down any time soon. Rather than encouraging in-fighting, anybody in T8 who reads this, please encourage everyone you know to come on here and add their voices to this thread in a civilized manner. If enough people keep this thread alive for long enough, I doubt even the worst PR team in the industry, let alone ANet’s team, would ignore the thread.

Hopefully, ANet might respond to this thread before April with a something that adds to the debate, if only so much as a “Shut up already! We don’t agree with you!”

Asglarek.8976:

Cool we need more affirmative action for server minorities its worked so kitten well in real life lets make everyone a winner deservingly or not as long as it makes everyone feel all warm and fuzzy inside its a win win amirite?

Moral integrity attached to the sarcasm of your post aside, do you see anyone in this thread arguing that everyone should be a “winner”? We’re arguing that everyone should have a chance to have fun, regardless of the server they’re on.

66.6% of the servers will find themselves losers at the end of each week. That’s a non-issue. The issue is when the entire population of a tier is throwing their hands in the air and wondering why they bother trying to have fun anymore. Please, inform me how the “affirmative action” to increase the overall enjoyment level of WvW you seem opposed to is going to screw things up?

As much as I wished it wasn’t the case, Rikkity is spot on. The closer SF gets to approaching T7 ratings, the more they’ll have to stomp T8 just to maintain ratings, let alone gain them. It reminds me oddly of a graph as it approaches an asymptote, but that comparison is even a little too extreme for my taste.

As much as I don’t recommend doing this, you could get a numerical answer quite easily if you simply submit a false report to MOS showing SF having all of the points, with all of the point gain for themselves. Assuming it went through unflagged, it would be an interesting experiment to see if SF actually was projected to improve to a T7 rating.

Not that I’d advise doing that, as you would make a great number of people wish ill health on you if were to do it. Hmm…I wonder if whoever runs that site would be willing to run the calculation if requested through email…

I’d try my hand at running the calculations myself, but I can’t seem to find the actual modified equations ANet uses, or the current Ratings Deviation of each T8 server for the life of me.

^ What Rikkity said. My apologies for getting your server wrong. I just read “Shiverpeaks” and assumed NSP. I guess I need to brush up a little more on my EU servers, as I’m still a little biased towards understanding the NA issues.

Well, most of my argument towards you in my last post have kind of been thrown out the window…

But, yeah, you’re not in the wrong thread at all. I’ve never played in the EU bracket, and I’ve never really followed it before either, but just checking MOS shows that they’re in the same situation as NA. Honestly, maybe it’s just too early in the morning for my brain to function, but looking at the history of the servers is showing you guys probably have had it worse than NA the past month or two. Frankly, I’m surprised you guys weren’t the ones to make this thread.

By the way, could someone enlighten me as to how EU handles transfers? Maybe I’m just thinking that paid transfers came in sooner than they actually did, but it seems as though at least two of your T1 servers weren’t daunted by the idea of paying for a mass exit in the least. Also, your tiers seem to have volitility like I never imagined, with your T9 being a pathos inducing wreck. I’m guessing that free transfers were a very screwed up thing for EU lower tiers, considering that just looking at the MOS history baffles me. Some of the T9 servers go from winning over 90% of the points, to losing with less than 10%, and then jump back up to 75% the next week.

Forgive me if I seem confused, but after looking at the MOS history for only 20-30 minutes, I have to ask why it wasn’t you guys who started this thread…?

//Edit: After this point.//

Okay, I checked the history a little bit more, and the EU bracket appears to not only be in the same position as NA, they appear to have completely broken the tier system to beyond my level of comprehension. At least when a server changes tiers in NA, the next matchup is more or less roughly predictable. It looks like either the tiers have no real correlation to their population and skill level, or some of your servers have possibly the most impulsive groups of people in existance.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why a server would crush T9, be stomped by T8, stomp T9 again, randomly fling themselves into T7 during the next T8 match, and somewho manage to hold their own in T7. And that’s not even counting the servers that randomly started free-falling through the tiers, the servers that seem to swap populations with the other servers in their tier at random intervals, and the servers that bounce from tier to tier like a yo-yo.

While this isn’t the wrong thread for you at all, I think there’s at least two more threads EU could start without people batting an eyelash.

Edit: It’s sad that I can be ninja’d six minutes before I post something…

Yeah, this post is most definately not motivated in any way by end-of-day bump efforts. Four hours with no bump and a looming second page placement didn’t encourage this at all.

Twinny.9304:

If only there was a way they could merge NA and EU servers like T1 NA and T8 EU merge and T1 EU and T8 NA merge or some similar merging through all tiers based on server population.
It would not solve but help server population and also give every server a fair advantage with the night capping etc,

When the issue of night-capping came about back in the early months of WvW, I think pretty much everyone wanted this in one shape or form. If ANet hadn’t seperated the NA and EU data centers at the game’s creation, this would have probably been an ultimatum from the WvW population.

Sadly, as you pointed out, there isn’t a way. ANet’s stated on multiple occasions that, with their current hardware, it’s physically impossible. So, the thought remains forever in our fondest dreams, never to stray nearer the realm of reality.

My apologies if that sounded harsh or condescending. I just want to make sure people don’t start debating the pros and cons of breaking the laws of reality.

Twinny.9304:

also i seen someone on this thread mention about a season or league table which i was also thinking the same way myself, like the way a football/soccer league is set out so regardless of the fact that u will still have servers far superior than others, we will all still have the opportunity to play each other an equal amount of times throughout the season and add some variety to whom you play whilst also keeping a ranking system in place. Only a few weeks back we had same opponents for numerous weeks in a row which was a bit repetitive and also knowing that unless your server magically grows in numbers or gets a few night capping guilds move to ur server then with the current system there will be servers u will never ever get to play.

Could someone be so kind as to please explain to me why so many people think a season, round-robin, or winner-move-up scoring system is the final hope of WvW? As you stated, there are currently servers you will never play. Things are like that for a reason.

You’re from NSP, are you not? You currently reside in the most even, nail-biting, fight to the bitter end tier to exist in WvW. That’s even looking at EU as well. Would you find WvW a fun place to be if you suddenly had to relive your matchup with Kain from 4 weeks ago? To trade the uncertainty of your current match for a roflstomp that’s decided before the reset even happens? To relive the match for months on end, only changing one faceless Kain server for another every week?

If the current method of scoring WvW matches was done away with for something that allowed servers to still try, even when they had been outperformed for 4 days, and that didn’t allow time-zones to play such a large role in score, the variety that people seem dead-set on might work. But, as it is, introducing variety would only lead to wondering which servers drew the short-stick in the roflstomp-lottery that week, along with a lot of servers simply wondering who is going to stomp them.

I feel the need to reiterate this: When the novelty of wondering who’s going to stomp you that week, and just how they’ll do it, has worn off, you’ll be wishing the change had never happened and wondering why you ever wished such a terrible fate upon yourself.

And if, for whatever reason, you find yourself on the new version of the JQ server and able to slaughter every other server, with only 2 to 4 even finishing close to your score, you’ll find yourself bored out of your mind. You’ll be trading one faceless T8 server for another every week and wondering why there aren’t any servers that play WvW and take points for months at a time.

Twinny.9304:

Since everyone who waned to move to the higher tier servers done it before pay to exchange came in unfortunately u not gonna see as many guilds moving around now, so the server population seems to be set solid.

Currently, this is true. That’s why the past 15-ish posts have been discussing the possibilities of how to rectify this. A problem that proves itself a challenge is a problem worthy of being solved, not a problem to accept and forget about.

yawg.4172:

Hey guys, SF member here, just pokin my head in…

Firstly I’d like to thank Takerukun.8924 for keeping a level head and calmly explaining several points that clarified a lot to me and is sincerely appreciated by a lot of us.

Thanks. If it helped even one person, it was worth it. :’)

yawg.4172:

Secondly…
//Snip! ’Cause this is the post above this one.//

If more people take a chance like you and provide their civil input in this thread, it can do nothing but improve things for everyone involved. Even if they disagree with the main point behind the thread, civil debate is healthy for all parties involved.

Thank you for joining the chorus of voices in this thread. It’s nice seeing new faces that bring a healthy dose of respect and civility in their arguments.

(Also, reduncy isn’t a bad thing in most cases if it isn’t verbatim. It’s merely showing support for things already presented.)

The message, clips, music…the voice! This thread deserves a couple days worth of bumps.

Thank you for making my day.

FilthyRat.4652:

It’s been a problem since day one and really hope they do something about it they will drive people away from game now that they put paid transfers in. It takes them so long to even fix the little thing in the game, we can only hope. Not happy that they are pushing back the Feb. WvW updates, but hopefully it’s cause they are working on current system.

+1

We can only really hope that the March update brings good things with it. Other than that, I’m stock-piling cookies and ice-cream in fear of heartbreak. Let there be good things in store! Otherwise, there will be a comfort food consumption unlike any before seen on this Earth! Climb, cardiac arrest rates! Climb!!!

Oh. Umm…I think I got carried away there. Moving along.

My apologies in advance if I offend, just trying to keep the debate civil and ongoing.

FilthyRat.4652:

First off never seen anyone guest in the game yet.
Right now it’s based on server population as a whole so to change it to give the bottom tier servers a handicap would be unfair to many people.

I won’t really address the first issue too much, as people not utilizing a system in place for them doesn’t invalidate the system.

As to you’re second point, I agree with you in that transfers shouldn’t be cheap to the lower tiers simply because they’re in the lower tiers. They should be based off of man-hours of participation in WvW – that would help deal with issues reaching far beyond any complaints of T8. The scale could adjust itself as people transfer, basing adjustments on the transferred account’s average hours in WvW over the past month.

I can’t claim to be a professional programmer by any means, but it shouldn’t be too hard to clock the times I’ve mentioned. They already have the basic framework in place to make /age work.

FilthyRat.4652:

Lol… what doesn’t make sense is this whole thread. The name is meant to draw people in then in the opening page you reference other servers, and when people from other servers come in and give you an opinion you call them troll and tell them to stay out?

And be truthful about the real situation on your servers please with all the infighting, guilds not working together, and the way people act in map chat. i have talked to several member that came to our server in the week alone.

If people are paying to get out of there and come with awful stories about certain servers then it seems like you need to do some internal work and and start working together.

Not everyone in this thread has called non-T8 posters trolls with a GTFO sign to the face. Admittedly, some have, but that in no way makes the debate going on in this thread completely invalid. Ignoring the message because of the messanger it was sent with is illogical.

Furthermore, in-fighting inside the lower tiers, and even FC and ET suddenly deciding to all stop playing, does not invalidate the original point behind this thread. The fact of the matter remains that T8 ratings are so far underneath T7 ratings that tier advancement isn’t viable, even when it’s obvious. SF aside, replace them with Kain next week and you still would see more than a single week of Kain having to claw their way out of the tier.

FilthyRat.4652:

Wow…you are too funny.
I never equated guesting in any kind of reference to paid transfers. Just said I haven’t seen it myself.
Right now based on total server population. Seems like an indifferent system than one based on either doing it by wvw or pve populations. You may like to guest on other severs but some people like to just be on a server and stay there.

Yes, at the moment the system of paid transfers is indifferent. That’s the problem. Guesting is in place for the PvE crowd, and paid transfers takes everybody into account. Therefore, the current system favours the PvE crowd when it has the framework in place to cater to everyone.

FilthyRat.4652:

Can say the same thing about you also…and btw I have agreed with it just not your ideas to fix it. Giving an advantage to a server that doesn’t get people to come out to WvW except for friday night just doesn’t make sense. Call me a troll all you want but I read this whole thread and you guys have said that with anyone that doesn’t agree with you. And some of my previous post were for a reason. please don’t dish it out if you can’t take it.

It doesn’t make sense to favour servers with one-day-shows, you’re right. However, that’s why a system could be designed to adjust in almost-real-time for WvW man-hours. If you wanted to get really complex, put error limits in place that account for the rate that WvW man-hours are being accumulated. If a server were to suddenly go from having sub-par showings, to accumulating hours at par or above, temporarily increase the transfer price to match higher population servers in order to avoid the lower population server getting mass transfers.

The math behind it isn’t something that can really be debated in this thread. ANet has too tight of a lid on any numbers they have or record to have any debate be more than guess-work. However, the debating of the need for such math is in no way over-stepping the rights of a debate.

Seven hours with no thread bump? Page two?! Oh, no you don’t thread…

In regards to the argument that people who transfer based on PvE would start an uprising if they had to pay transfer fees that were scaled according to something they have no interest in, there’s a single word that invalidates any strength behind that line of reasoning. Can anybody guess what that word is?

Guesting.

The PvE crowd can transfer to not only any server they want free of charge, they can do this twice every 24 hours. Is there even a single one of them who honestly pays to PvE with friends from different servers when they can do the transfer for free? If there are, they clearly have no money management skills. The only reason to do a permanent transfer is for WvW. Period. Full stop.

So, I’m asking again: Why don’t the permanent transfer fees in any way relate to WvW? Please, to anyone who reads this, I’m begging you; can you offer an answer to this question? If it takes more than 2 paragraphs to shoot down a defence of the current scheme I’ll be shocked.

insanemaniac.2456:

to actually do something like this… anet would need to introduce obnoxiously expensive transfer tickets to go to any server with even a few more man hours put into wvw. 2000 gems doesnt cut it, and the current number is based off of the wrong statistic (total population, with very large brackets for different price points). they could do something more like 20k gems, or 10x current prices, for any server with higher than average man hours put into wvw. and reduce prices to (or even incentivize) transfer to undermanned servers. and they could make transfers act something like the gem/gold exchange where massive spikes in plain old transfers (and not man hour averages) drastically and quickly change a servers transfer price, to prevent abuse.

i think the servers would even out wvw population-wise fairly quickly.

Yeah, that sound you heard when paid transfers came out was the relieved sigh of every WvW player, followed by a resounding thud from the mass facepalming when they checked the price-scheme. I’ve yet to hear a truly valid rebuttal arguing against basing paid transfers on WvW population rather than on total server population. If PvE population is becoming an issue (which is hard to believe considering this game rewards grouping up with other players for PvE like no other), simply stop transfers to the server.

I’d be surprised to find more than a few people in WvW who wouldn’t defend the system you suggest to the death (err…of their avatar). It would probably show, at the very least, enough balance that teirs adjacent to one another could fight each other without many population or coverage problems. The current system gives no reason to transfer to any of the tiers below T5, and I’ve yet to see a valid argument for why that remains unchanged.

Edit: Oops. ^ What fivekiller said. You ninja’d me.

Yes, if your server drops enough rating, you guys will drop to a lower tier. This is assuming you guys aren’t already in T8 (T9 if you’re EU), but from “put with some lower rated server”, I’m going to assume that’s a safe bet.

Though, as much as I don’t want to be the troll that ruins your day…Your server dropping to a lower tier for a balanced match also assumes you don’t have one of the awkward and annoying in-between server populations that’s too low for your current tier, but too high for the tier below you.

It that were the case, it still won’t be a balanced match. But at least you’ll be winning. You’ll just be putting the other lower tier servers in your current position.

Fozzik.1742:

I think the idea that there’s some “ideal match” that every server should end up in…where they are playing two other servers they are evenly matched with and they play them every week forever…sounds like a pretty boring prospect.

That seems to be the goal of this system…that things shake out to the point where we have two opponents (instead of dozens) and just play those two every week for as long as we play the game.

Personally, I think that’s a lousy idea and will be terrible for long-term retention. They need to mix it up and provide fresh experiences. Whatever system they use, it needs to be one where servers get to see different opponents at least reasonably often, and where the matches’ outcomes aren’t known before they even start.

You’re right. It is a terrible idea. What you say also points to the root of this problem – that not even fixing the ratings this thread is about is a viable plan for long term growth. However, while the servers might need variety, they need fun variety. Variety for variety’s sake is about as much fun as sending an old, bitter, and uptight grandparent to hang out with a group of rebellious teenagers. Sure, you probably haven’t seen that in a while. But it isn’t going to end well.

The only real viable solution for the long term survival of this game (in WvW at least) is balancing the populations across all 24 servers. You’ll still see servers who are just plain out better than others, and some that are still going to be crushed. But that would be from player skill, not population. People don’t usually complain when that happens – they strive to improve themselves.

That’s where this becomes a tightrope walk in a hurricane. ANet can’t balance the populations on their own. They’ll probably lose more than half their player base if they do that. All they can do is offer some kind of reason for people to balance out of their own free will.

All I can say is good luck with that. The game’s been out for half a year already and people still haven’t done it out of the goodness of their heart. They’ll need either a game breaking carrot to move to under-powered servers, or a death threat of a stick for those that stay on over-powered servers. Hell with the cake the Necro forum sent ANet, I’m sending whoever’s in charge of this Aspirin for the migraines

Fozzik.1742:

I agree that the level of effort is probably pretty lopsided, but it’s important to note that those trying their hardest in WvW every night are, at this point, a pretty small part of the populations of both servers (ET and FC). If the match’s outcome was a bit less certain, there would be a lot more FC and ET players out there trying their hardest.

I still enjoy playing WvW almost every night, but it’s definitely frustrating and I don’t begrudge anyone taking a break from it. We’re not showing at our best, is all I’m saying, and our score doesn’t define us right now.

Oh, I agree with you 100% in that regard. And I’ll even admit to being part of the no-show problem most days this past week. (Midterms are fun, what can I say…?)

If everyone in FC and ET who consider themselves part of the WvW crowd were to put their full effort in, I have no doubt that we’d at the least give SF a better run for their money. We might even be able to stand up to T7. It’s just that between low morale, real life getting in the way, and the black-hole that is T8 ratings, the turnout won’t increase enough to matter in a timely fashion.

I wish it would, ‘cause I’ve seen some awesome WvW people from both servers. But then, if we do show up in force for once, SF’s crippled crawling frantic dash for T7 will slow down even more. Who knows, T8 might yet be an even and fair match even with SF in it. But, with the shear number of people I know who are throwing themselves at WvW non-stop, I don’t see that happening.

Kyto.4269:

So would the choices be reset tiers or closed the servers on the lowest bracket and allow people out of those servers to ones of their choice?

A soft reset for the tiers would help, but as one poster pointed out, that’s more of “a bandage for a bullet wound” than a fix. Then there’s the idea of server closure, which would probably be very bad for ANet’s PR purposes. FC and ET aren’t dead servers in the usual sense of the word. I don’t PvE all that much, but I’d be surprised if the nobody was still out playing that area of the game on the servers. Our WvW populations are just getting tired of showing up.

EasymodeX.4062:

Fozzik.1742:

What do you think it is right now? Blowout week after week is exactly what we have, with no change in sight…no possibility of something new or different.

Er, not gonna scroll through the thread to look at what matchup you’re talking about in detail, but there is no blowout in T8. SF is winning by a pretty wide margin, but they only have 55% of the total score. A blowout is when they’re winning by a hell of a lot more than that, lmao.

When looking at the current T8 match-up, people refer to it as a blowout because of the effort put on by all sides. The current score is FC and ET throwing everything they have at the match with serious risk of burnout just to get under 50% of the score between them. SF is getting over 50% just by being SF, losing interest and getting bored because of it. Not that SF isn’t trying, far from it. They just don’t need to try to get more than 50% of the score

titanlectro.5029:

I agree. I was not trying to belittle the frustration in T8 at the moment. My comments were in response to the idea of a “everyone plays everyone” season format. I believe that this would be even worse than T8’s already painful situation.

^What Titanlectro said. T8 might stand a chance against T7, they might not. We won’t know until those match-ups happen. Could T8 stand against T6? Debatable, but probably not. T5 and above would wonder if T8 was even on the map.

Change could be good, but the idea that trading one blowout for another would be enjoyable for any server involved is laughable if it kept up for more than 2 weeks. I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again: It might be a breath of fresh air for the stomped tiers at first, but when the wonder and awe has worn off, it would be the same old stale cesspool we have at the moment. Even worse, we would be dragging the upper tiers which have already started to balance into it as well. (Not that all the upper tiers have balanced…)

Changing things up so we saw a couple of the servers in T7 probably wouldn’t be that bad, but we’re getting over-confident for no real reason if we seriously think we stand a chance against the higher populated servers.

Ungood.3054:

Takerukun.8924:

Wouldn’t you need at least a second shade of green for it to be monotone?

That would be monochrome ;-P

Ahem…excuse me as I quietly go and edit that. //Facepalm//

Ungood.3054:

I wondered that myself, as well. if wining all the time is sadly setting yourself up to fail later.

Anyway. I have a Theory.

I theorize that IF we at ET (and FC) were to just ignore WvWvW, for the week, and let you just take it all, you would still not get out of Tier 8 because the math is just that messed up.

I would love to see if I am right or not.

Even if you were wrong, which is questionable at this point, SF would only get into T7 by their toenails. That is, after all, the point of the two to five threads floating around this forum on the issue at the moment.

SniffyCube.6107:

Don’t really want to edit this in for whoever has responded or read my last post, but for whatever reason, let’s not lose sight of why this thread was started. One step at a time regardless of your personal feelings, it’s all anecdotal and speculative at the minute without hard data post xfer period.

+1

As to the debate going on for the past 10 or so posts…Maybe my reading comprehension is just going down the toilet tonight, but what exactly is the viewpoint difference? Or are you guys just bouncing ideas off one another? All participants seem to have agreed that SF needs to get bumped up to T7, the T8 math is holding them in place, and that having a server drop from T6 to T7 probably wouldn’t be fun for anyone involved.

I think I’m missing something…will have to check back tomorrow to see how this played out. Good luck to all parties, and may your feces remain unflung.

Jesse.4631:

Apparently my last comment was “rude” my apologies Anet, but how are people not suppose to post on this forum with a tad of frustration, when it feels like T8 is being treated like something that can be ignored, over something that’s obviously a problem?

I see less and less people in wvw every day, not just from FC or ET, but from SF themselves. This matching has become stale, no one enjoys watching a movie, when they know the ending.

While calling a specific individual an idiot isn’t exactly the most PR approved move in the world, I don’t think many would disagree with the assessment presented in your post, nor your frustration. It’s a good sign that you’re not a robot. Also, no offense to Krak, but leaving your back open during warfare is a questionable move no matter how you slice it…

insanemaniac.2456:

Ungood.3054:

SniffyCube.6107:

Just trying to keep the discussion going…It’s important that we try to find a solution, even if it seems like we’re being ignored atm… or are being ignored… can’t really tell

Pause and Ponder this,

They are using a very well developed and top notch system that is designed to build a individual profile for unique user and place them an ideal tier of skill to guess the outcome of several massive pugs.

If that does not scare you, it has not sunk in yet.

collectively, a server acts as a unique individual. youre missing the forest for the trees and assuming the rating applies at all to any of the trees. and you need to replace “skill” with “population” instead of even thinking a servers rating has anything whatsoever to do with “skill” from the massive population imbalances that have run rampant. so dont be scared, because the rating system is applicable. we just need more than 24 competitors (not happening), or for manual adjustments to take place when issues like 200 point rating gaps crop up.

I’d have to agree with Rikkity a little bit more on this one. Yes, it probably isn’t the smartest thing to think of an entire server as one person, but a server’s average turn out crowd is roughly the same as a person. The average skill level and coverage should remain more or less constant, only improving at the rate that the average person on the server is.

The only time it would shift or spike enough to be statistically relevant is when you have the people themselves change. While even paid transfers still leave some threat of this, and free transfers had this happen every other day, it shouldn’t happen on a massive scale any more.

I can’t disagree with you entirely Ungood, I just think (hope) that the people themselves would be consistant enough to take an average sampling as valid.

Let the debate continue! We will reach page ten!

silverfire.2547:

Trust me, few if any of the commanders are under any illusion that T7 will be easy at all. I know that with every passing week, the threat of complacency looms larger and larger, but thankfully many of us have the foresight to make sure it doesn’t cloud our judgement.

Oh, I have faith in the commanders and the WvW guild who know what they’re doing. I just have a slight worry that a fifth or more of your current WvW population will sail for greener pastures when T7 pulls a Gandalf.

Wouldn’t you need at least a second shade of green for it to be monotone?

Sarcasm aside, all three servers are getting hit by this. SF is getting more of an ego boost every day they’re in T8, which is leading a lot of them (not the entire server! Don’t shoot me.) to stop caring about tactics or anything. Who needs to practice or get better when you slaughter everything in sight without trying?

Then you have FC and ET being shot down every week, crushing the morale of both. Fewer people from each show up every week thereafter, which makes SF’s lead get even larger and confidence grow even more out of proportion. I feel bad for SF being stuck in T8, but I feel even worse for them when they escape from T8 and meet servers that can stand up to them.

On the bright side, if SF ever does leave T8, they’ll get an honest fight for the first time in over 2 months. Also, FC’s and ET’s morale might surface for just long enough to put up an even fight with SF’s replacement. If that could keep up, T8 might just see itself saved yet.

insanemaniac.2456:

SniffyCube.6107:

I think most of us wanted something more… maybe a “we’re looking into it” what this change told me was that they’ve read this post and believe it’s only in my opinion, and maybe only affects t8… I’m probably just paranoid though at this point.

the op is yours, you can always add in an edit or 2 to say things like this also is a t1/t2 issue

^ And no, you’re not paranoid. I’m just trying to remain as positive as possible before burnout and attrition destroy any effort and effect this thread has created.

Labarge.1439:

The problems are two-fold:

1. ET and FC do not have an appropriately matched third opponent, and more importantly:

2. ET/FC’s low ratings cause an excessive dragging effect on SF (or any other server eventually in SF’s current situation) which makes it very difficult for overqualified servers to get out of T8 when they are forced to fill that open slot.

The 2nd problem is the one that I think can be more easily dealt with, as it is caused primarily by how ratings are calculated. Problem #1 is not a simple fix, as you correctly point out. However, not being simple doesn’t invalidate it as a problem, and at the very least something could be done to help alleviate problem #2.

You brought a tear to my eye with beauty of this post. (^_^)/
+1

Oozo.7856:

LOL. And here I thought a dev was going to give a post showing some concern for the stagnation in T8 that puts people in unbalanced matches for months. What a fool I am.

Sorry for using you as an example (even if I am taking your post out of context), but your post is actually another reason why having ANet post just to explain a title change indirectly helps the cause of this thread. Whether intentionally or not, they’ve flagged this thread as having an official response. The fact that the response isn’t actually a response aside, having the response at all makes people check the thread.

A lot of people who would never have read the thread in the first place are now going to see the giant red button beside it and think “Oh wow. I thought T8 was just whining, but ANet responded to them! OMG I’m checking this out!”

Keep debating guys. Our resolve just might see us through yet.

Yohimbe.1876:

CC Meinke.2749:

Please note that this thread has been renamed according to the Code of Conduct.
Thank you for your understanding.

LOL. Well then.

I’ve been following this thread with interest. As an SBI member I can tell you ET/FC we feel your pain. Hold on, little buddies, there is a great chance we will meet you as we continue our own whomping freefall through the ranks.

It seems to me that WvW is divided between hi-pop zerg servers and the rest of us. There really does need to be a mechanism in place that takes the number of players v players on the field into account. Match ups need to be balanced whether it’s ZvZ or not and T8 is taking the worst brunt of this imbalance. It is incomprehensible to me that ANet has not stepped in to address the situation. Well, except for the thread renaming bit.

Yeah, I’ve been following your server’s fall with mild interest. Not that I like seeing servers fall, but I’m wondering if yours is finally the one that will fit comfortably in T8. From what other posters have said, you would still need a lot of people to transfer away, but that isn’t beyond the realm of possibility when a server drops from T1 to T4.

As to the Red-Card response not really directly responding to anything other than the title being a little too…flashy, I’m not really surprised. The good sign is that they responded at all. That means the thread has at least gotten their attention. Whether for better or for worse remains to be seen. Though, an extreme case of angering them isn’t likely, since they haven’t outright locked the thread, and they haven’t banned anyone posting on the thread.

Logically, they can’t give a response with any real meat to it, because any statement by an ANet account would be taken as an official confirmation that something is wrong, and that a fix is on the way. Due to the simply lovely invention of bureaucracy, this could take weeks, if not months, before a response like that would be allowed. Anything that happens before that is liable to get someone fired. That’s why even a post explaining a title change gives me some hope.

All we can do in the mean time is keep the debate up, remaining as civil as possible while following the Code of Conduct, and keep this thread on the front page. If we start flame wars, or start flinging every derogatory word in the English vocabulary at ANet in hopes that some of the rotten fruit sticks, we’ll just get the thread ignored and shut down.

In time, an actual response might yet be forthcoming, if only so much as a thread-lock and swing with the ban-hammer. But, at the very least, we would then know their official take on it.

For those who played it, I imagine being a commander in WvW at the moment is very similar to playing Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim. Except that in WvW, you can’t set bounties on the things you want attacked. I feel for them.

TheGhostBaron.1250:

First, not creepy, not yet anyway lol.

Second, yeah a reward system definately comes down to how to track it and how to keep punks from abusing it.

But reward system aside, Anet should definately take a long look at setting up some kind of “season” system, even if by the end of the season we end up with ETvsFCvsSF atleast leading up to that point will have been different and interesting. Which in the end whether we win or lose, all we want is to have some fun.

Not to completely disagree with you, because any change would be nice at this point, but change doesn’t always equal fun if the change we’re talking about becomes a normal change. Err…well, if that wasn’t the most awkward way I could have worded it, I don’t know what is.

What I’m trying to say is that while changing things up might seem fun at the moment, even going from curbstomping to being curbstomped and vice versa, and even changing one curbstomper for another, when that change is a regular occurance, it’ll stop feeling like a breath of fresh air and still be the stale cesspool we have at the moment. It’s just trading one blowout for another. That isn’t really a fix.

On a more positive note, a season system might yet still be possible and fun one day! All we need to see are more people transferring around to balance the tier WvW populations out. Even enough that only the two or three tiers adjacent to each other could still reasonably go toe-to-toe. I’m just not holding out hope of this barring manual re-shuffling, and even that isn’t going to happen without outraging the player base.

fivekiller.1432:

the previous posters didn’t all suggest “anything is preferable.” it was only said as a sort of off the cuff jab at the current system.

a solution that is less than optimal but better than the current solution isn’t demeaning to anyone.

The best solution would be one that addressed competitiveness in WvW altogether so that matchups could be more competitive within a given tier. Since that isn’t happening any time soon if ever, a less than optimal solution would then be preferable.

What those who say things like “a bad matchup every other week would not be fun” are ignoring is that right now there are at least 13 servers in a matchup that they have nearly zero chance of winning.

that is over half of all servers playing a battle they know they will lose. many of which know they will be in the same battle next week and many weeks after.

its not ideal, but what many who preach the problems of disparities between tiers ignore is the disparities already existing within tiers.

I hadn’t intended to say that a less than optimal solution wasn’t worth looking at. My apologies if I offended. I have a bad habit of getting caught up in stressing points while typing.

I just think that having a sub-par solution shouldn’t be the cause of week-long celebrations. Yes, something might be fixed. But, then we have to look objectively at the other twenty things that need fixing. It’s like asking someone to be happy that they were only abused and beaten 20 times as a child rather than 50. (While I realize a game probably shouldn’t be compared with child abuse, it’s the only comparison that comes to mind that’s even slightly similar.)

By the way, I agree with almost everything in your post. The disparity within tiers is terrible at the moment, and the disparity between them just compounds the issue. Of all the things suggested so far, the one that would be a dream come true is some sort of mass balancing transfer where everyone tried to evenly spread out the WvW population of their own volition.

But, as unlikely as that is to happen, any suggestions that are realistic are welcome at the moment. We just shouldn’t break out the good champaign for ones that leave us almost exactly where we started.

TheGhostBaron.1250:

I agree mate, I can see how a reward for being the top server definately gives the wrong vibe and will cause mass transfer to the “winning” servers. But if they had a way to reward players who put active time into WvW on their server rather than based on their finish rank. That way people won’t feel the need to jump ship at the first sign of trouble and it gives people who don’t normally get into WvW an extra reason to get into the fight. Granted I don’t know how this type of system would be implemented or what type of reward could be given. But in my eyes this offers a lot of answers to the questions we’ve been asking.

Not to sound creepy or anything, but I’m starting to like you. You’ve helped to keep the debate going and haven’t flat out shot anyone down. (Edit: Why don’t the forums like my surprised emoticon that uses a Russian character? T^T)

As to rewarding active WvW time, I think that might be the closest thing to a half-viable reward structure suggested yet, but would still be difficult to pull off. How would you measure active WvW time?

Actual time in WvW maps would be easy to farm up. Just sit in the map, move around every now and then (manually or through an automated tap of an arrow key every 9 minutes and 50 seconds). Then you would reward people for taking up queue slots and hindering their server. Mind you, T8 laughs at the notion of queue slots most days, but I digress.

Kill count would greatly favour the DPS crowd and further shift the meta away from support roles. Siege built would reward the rich for being rich and spending their money (gotten primarily through PvE or the TP, since WvW clearly isn’t about making money at the moment). Points taken would assume your opponent can actually field the numbers to take a statistically relevant number of points. And points defended would only be viable if you made the Dynamic Event system realize that you can defend by doing more than killing people and using supply to repair .

If people can think of a viable reward structure that isn’t exploitable, by all means, chime in and present it, ’cause this is the most likely option for getting WvW participation up and keeping it from withering away.

Irate Platypus.9318:

Here’s an idea that’s unlikely to happen but would solve some of these problems and I think be fun: every so often, have four-sided matches instead of three. That lets one tier get exposed to the ratings in the ones above and below it, and adds some variety to both the matchups and the gameplay. It wouldn’t quite work for the EU servers though with their not-divisible-by-4 situation. I blame the metric system for that.

While this wouldn’t be that bad of an idea, it would require entirely new maps. While a lot of people agree that new maps are needed, those take massive amounts of time and resources to construct. The time and effort requires goes up exponentially when you have to take PvP and siege placement balance into account, which is why you’ll always see more new PvE maps than new PvP maps.

Don’t get me wrong, new maps and a four server free-for-all would be fun. Albiet, four servers could get…crowded, for lack of a better term. It’s just that I agree with you when you say it would be unlikely to happen.

Ungood.3054:

So basically, if I grasp this right, thanks to the system being used Glicko, and Glicko-2, it pretty much scales each sever vs Server battle into what amounts to a PvE encounter, where the level of the player is pit against the level of mob, and if the mob is too low level it won’t award exp, in this case, SF can’t climb out of Tier 8 by simply winning, because they are not going to get exp for beating FC or ET with the way the math is set up.

What that means is that system set up is so heinously skewed, that the only way they can really get out is by not fighting, and thus tanking their rating down to where they can get gain solid points from beating ET and FC and then win big, to get out of Tier 8.

While I may be wrong, if that is the case, I can only muse at what a messed up system they have in place.

Sort of, yes. At the moment FC’s and ET’s ratings are so far down in the hole that the “exp” SF is gaining from us like grinding your pokemon to level 100 in the starter area. The only problem with them not showing up so as to let FC and ET gain ratings, and in turn give SF more exp, is that SF will lose exp during that time. This, in turn, will make SF crushing us again basically push them back to where they were before they slipped, and crush FC and ET back to the hole they were in before crawling out.

So, in a sense, it’s a PvE encounter where it’s impossible to level up from normal mobs in the area you’re in, impossible to leave the area you’re in, and impossible to level the mobs around you by dying to them. Yay for math.

Eliyahu.1467:

What is needed here is a “soft reset” similar to LoL’s elo rating soft resets at the beginning of each season.

Don’t totally reset the ratings, but instead bring all the server ratings proportionally closer to the median rating.

This was suggested by one player in the Reset Ratings thread ANet made, with each server basically being put 50 points below the server ranked one above them, but was never really responded to. Just one more awesome idea to add to the pile for fixing things. Thanks!

TheGhostBaron.1250:

If they want to use the same math without having some sort of fix for it, they could set up some kind of “season” idea.

Like everyone starts at say an even 1500 rating, they fight for say 2 months with rank and ratings changing as they either win or lose. Then at the end of 2 months every server gets some kind of prize based on end ranking(as an incentive for more players to get involved in WvW) and then they reset everyone and the season starts again. This way things have a fluidity they dont have now. You may see 3 servers get stuck at the bottom, but if it happens you know its not for long. Is this idea perfect, no, but based on the way the math and ratings are this option has the chance to give us some interesting matches and offers those of us on the bottom the chance to play some different folks for once even if we still get facerolled.

It delights me to see a lot of people are sticking around in this thread with options and civil debate. (Not to mention keeping it on the front page…ahem.)

In regards to the season thing, the way to give out rewards would be a major challenge to the servers ever balancing. If they reset everyone’s ratings to 1500 every, let’s say two months or so, you would see massive stompings as the servers with the most coverage started to float their way back to the top (hopefully with more efficiency than bubble sorting…).

A lot of players I’ve talked to and stalked read on the forums don’t seem to mind the idea of some unbalanced matches, but the unbalanced matches – combined with rewards to the server who stomps the most – would serve as a catalyst for the unfortunate human instinct to jump ship to the winner. Why bother trying to compete at all when you can just transfer to the server who you know will win to get free stuff?

That’s why using a tier system to give rewards could get very tricky to do with anything resembling something other than mass trollery by ANet. Unless they could implement a viable reason for servers to fight tooth and nail to the bitter end, even when they know they cannot win, people who want to win and get rewards (read as the majority) would just transfer. The mass transfer would then go on and ensure that whoever was already pretty much assured victory is now undeniable in their victory.

I’m all for trying to increase WvW turnout by giving rewards, and adding some sort of meaning to the never-ending fight, but rewarding servers for being high up in the tiers is simply saying “Congratulations, you picked and/or transferred to a server with a large WvW turnout, combined with tight coverage. Thanks for playing!” This, in turn, simply enrages all tiers below T1 into either quiting or transferring to T1.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

Not sure if this idea has been pitched or not (I’ve only somewhat skimmed this thread), but why not simply set the rating ceiling to 2000 and floor at 1000? Tiebreakers for placement could be resolved by your finishing result from the previous week relative to tier (1st place in T2 would be weighted higher than 2nd place in T1, for example).

Under this idea, JQ, SoR, SoS, and BG would in the running for T1 placement, with Kaineng in striking distance.

Likewise, in T8, SF/FC/ET would all be at 1000 rating, with GoM and HoD only about 30-40 points away. A T8 blowout by SF would elevate them to T7 or possibly even T6 after just one week.

That has been sort of suggested, just with no concrete numbers being mentioned. There aren’t any obvious drawbacks to it aside from figuring out exact bookend numbers that avoid putting the tiers too close together for stability purposes (which would be something of an ironic reversal to the current problem, but I digress).

However, since the thread hasn’t received any Red-Card response, we kind of just said “Maybe?” and moved on to discuss more things. Which, by the way, people have been awesome about. Keep up the good work guys!

Fozzik.1742:

The most basic issue with the system is that players like easy wins. If someone can figure out how to cure that…

The problem is getting people to come out when [servers] are losing.

Until ArenaNet provides some REAL incentive for playing through some adversity… being an underdog and fighting tooth and nail…this will continue to be a problem. I’m really hoping the new reward system coming over the next few months provides the incentive to get players into a match, no matter how their server is currently doing.

The problem with the math…with the huge point disparity between T8 and everyone else, is totally separate and definitely needs to be corrected in some way.

Sorry for snipping your post up. My post was turning into a wall with just the quotes.

In regards to the rewards system in March, let’s hold out high hopes they offer real incentives to come out and fight. Even just getting rid of repair costs when your server is far enough behind would help somewhat with turn out.

To try and keep the discussion up, I have to ask: what types of incentives do you think they could offer to keep people showing up, while being still being fair and non-exploitable?

Besetment.9187:

Warlord Lu Bu.7905:

Why does there need to be a point system? Why not have the winner move up and the loser move down?

Volatility. It means that every other week you go from completely smoking a server with vastly inferior coverage to getting dominated by a server with vastly superior coverage.

With glicko, you will eventually settle into a matchup against servers with similar coverage because the scoring system in this game is strongly correlated to active WvW population and timezone coverage.

It does not matter if you defend a keep for 15 minutes against 100 of the most skilled and organized players on the planet vs 5 uplevels with quaggan assist. You still get +25 points for the tick.

The problem with glicko is really a problem with the overwhelming majority of people who play this game. Glicko relies on historical data to inform current shifts in rating. But if a server suddenly receives a large influx of players, it throws glicko out of whack because the historical data describes a server with limited coverage just about getting by. It takes many more matchups for glicko to accumulate (up to date) historical data to inform current shifts in rating. The problem has always been large numbers of players jumping servers to make rank, faster than glicko can correct itself.

But the very idea of “trying” to be in a tier where your server’s population and timezone coverage is clearly not adequate to make a competitive match, makes no sense. It makes no sense for anyone on Maguuma to “want” to get into tier 2.

If you look at how dysfunctional the brackets are (with T8 being the most prominent and terminal example), its hard to call WvW a PvP game. If your server has not been beaten by 400,000 points before it is very hard to get across just how irrelevant skill and organization is when you confront a timezone coverage disparity on this order of magnitude. Thats not a competitive PvP game. Thats crashing waves and waves of idiots into your opponent’s keeps until their players get worn down and quit.

This. The Glicko ratings are supposed to create a balance of power in the tiers to ensure competition and enjoyment. Like it or not, power in WvW at the moment is simply coverage and number. Nothing drives this point home more than watching your server lose by over 400k simply because you couldn’t field the numbers to drive back a herd of cattle, let alone real humans with siege.

Your baffled take on “trying” to be in an upper tier your server doesn’t belong in is one of the most intelligent things I’ve seen on these forums in a long time. Thank you.

The Past Three Posters:

Anything is preferable to the current.

While anything might be preferable, it’s demeaning to everyone involved to think that a solution that’s still terrible, and which would lead to WvW populations probably having a bi-weekly turn out for the most part, is still a solution. It makes no sense that anyone should be happy for the conditions to go from dismal to below sub-par.

A temporary fix might please the affected tiers for a short while, but the “solution” mentioned would only upset more tiers than it would fix, while still leaving everyone wondering what the blazes ANet was doing to fix things less than a month later.

By the way, my apologies if I come across as hostile, cynical or anything like that when I’m debating the cons of a particular point in my posts, or if I’m just agreeing with someone with no real content added. I’m just trying to keep the discussion up (sometimes as the Devil’s Advocate in desperation).

Grommet.2963:

A response would be nice, and don’t stop walls of text! Chances are if we’re here in forums in the first place, we like reading and we like lots of discussion xD and you make a lot of good points in your post, especially how T1 is the opposite situation of T8.

The one thing I’d like to ask ferg players, or really sorrows or any other lower tier servers, do you guys get overflows for maps often in PvE? I can tell you right now that during primetime on Eradon we don’t, occasionally one for lions arch but that’s it (and that would be resolved if they gave us something like guild halls for guilds to hang out in!). I personally feel like the server populations aren’t accurate.

One of the biggest complaints everyone has is about coverage, not just in t8, but in multiple tiers. Maybe Anet really should consider merging not just bottom tier servers, but multiple servers, and take a new look at their “server population” indicators. If they want WvW battles to be balanced, the first step is to actually fill the matches, a team of 80+ people on one map vs a team of 20 or so people isn’t fun for most people, and even in PvE zones we don’t get overflows so its hard to imagine why we’re considered medium/high population on the server list, or why the system exists in this manner in the first place.

If coverage/player populations in WvW wasn’t an issue for all matchups, then we would see more matches changing around and less blowouts by some servers vs other servers. Really I’d love to hear Anets response on this, or for them to look into the possibility of merging servers. Yes some people always think merging servers sounds bad and will push players away, but you know what pushes players away even more? Ghost towns and blowouts, stagnant matches that never changes, unachievable score differences to change said match ups. Just my two cents.

Honestly, I don’t really do PvE all that much. AI mechanics are too predictable and boring to keep me interested. But when I do pop into PvE for money for WvW, I’ve never ran into Overflow servers. The rare exceptions were near Queensdale when the game came out, and LA. Actually, now that you’ve got me thinking, I actually had to guest on Tarnished Coast in frustration of not being able to open Temple of Dwayna for exotic armour because of lack of other people running about. Granted, I don’t think I tried much during prime time (that’s the best WvW time!), so my views might be slightly biased.

I’m curious as to how many people in each of our servers are running dungeons at any given time, though. I’d be surprised if it made enough of a difference to be relevant, but we might never see Overflow servers simply because everyone is in their own dungeon instance.

On the notion of merging servers for coverage purposes, that wouldn’t really be all that practical. It would hypothetically be the perfect solution if all the servers were to be found in one selection pool, but that isn’t the case. The fact that NA servers can’t interact with EU servers, but people from EU and NA are free to pick either pool, makes coverage merging a game of chance. ANet would have better data available for making the decision, but you would have to monitor the number of EU’s on the NA servers and vice versa very closely before any merger plan could even be thought of, let alone looked at and implemented.

If everyone from NA actually stayed on NA servers, and everyone from EU actually stayed on EU servers, that would help coverage as well. But that isn’t a viable solution either, since a lot of people from either side of the pond prefer to play with the other side for a variety of reasons. Trying to cater to every reason in such a way as to get people staying on their side of the pool, so to speak, would be an effort in futility on a scale never seen before. Even if you IP blocked the NA servers from outside NA timezones, and IP blocked EU servers from outside EU timezones to try and force the issue, IP blocks are a joke to get around.

Even without thinking about merging for coverage in the infamous “Nightcapping” sense, merging just for NA primetime coverage would be a nightmare. Because of the tier system (and even the way just the maps work), there would still have to a server count divisible by three at the end of the mergers. While it’s very easy to say server X + server Y would be an even match for server Z, it would quickly get out of hand when you have to ensure a multiple of 3. You would have to think about servers A, B, C, D, and E, joining to face servers J, K and L, which would also face server Z. Quickly, you’ve got server overload and the entire thing crashes down.

It would be lovely if it worked, but the mind numbing ramifications of doing even a slight alteration to server mergers with the intent of balancing WvW population is too much to expect even professionals to handle well.

Agricola.2817:

As it stands right now according to millenium, if the match ended right now despite winning by 30000 points SF would LOSE 37 rating. This system is silly.

The system itself is more or less valid. The uninspired way it was originally implimented – with free tranfers leading to the damages in the ratings – and the apparent lack of fix for the damage done is what’s “silly”, for lack of better word that isn’t replaced with “kitten”. Granted, ANet did propose a fix in the infamous Reset Ratings, but that was shot down for completely valid and logical reasons. It’s just that a once proposed fix that didn’t actually go through or change anything doesn’t count as a fix.

Thresher.3049:

I honestly think a system of Green ^1 rank, Blue -0 rank, Red v1 rank would see some kind of more interesting match ups because the current system is borked in that you’ll get stuck in stagnation for weeks on end having to put up with the same teams fighting, every week.
Blackgate came to realise after I think about the 7th week stuck in a row, winning every match- is that the system means you must not just win your match, you must DESTROY the opposition to the point that they’re completely broken and it becomes a massive blow-out… not just a big point lead, I really do mean complete and utter annihilation.
Do I like winning? Yes, but I don’t really want to log in, see its all green and then have to figure out what to do for a few hours either and would much rather a down to the wire war to the last minute with only a few 1000pts in the match.

The other problem is a bit of human nature and a bit of Anet too. If I absolutely had to leave Blackgate where I first rolled my GW2 characters, I would go down a much lower tier to somewhere that I felt I could make a difference to something… but thats more of an Aussie thing maybe of cheering for the team no one expects to win.
But the rest of the world doesn’t, they’d crawl over their dead mothers to get onto the winning team and ignore everyone else, simply because there is no penalty to do otherwise in the game.

my 2c

Huh, now that I think about it, the issue with T8 is kind of morbidly reversed for T1. T8 has no lower floor, and so their ratings continue to crumble and be too low for T7 to even consider them more than an annoying bug. T1 has not upper ceiling, and so continues to float high above any reasonable reach of T2.

But I digress.

The only problem with the idea of Green goes up, Red goes down, is that between a lot of the tiers, there’s no uncertainty in the outcome at all. I’ve never experienced the upper tiers personally, but looking at what others have said and the matchup history, quite a few servers that stomp one tier get stomped by the tier above them when they move up. So, if they were to move up no matter what when they won, they’d move right back down the next week after gaining under 5% of the total score that week.

I honestly wish more people had your outlook about tranfering to whichever server could use the most help. If enough people did that, the tiers would become balanced enough that a Green goes up, Red goes down would be viable. It would also fix all the complaints of rating imbalance between tiers since everyone would be within 200 or so points of everyone else (hypothetically at least. A reset would still be needed if they tiers ever balanced that much). As it is, the population imbalance looks at the idea and laughs it off as simple trollery.

If ANet can’t create a system that keeps the top and bottom tiers in a type of pre-defined bookend range, with the tiers between being held within a certain distance of each other, I’d love dearly for them to create an insentive to transfer to servers that are in need of WvW help. Howver, since it isn’t realistic to expect all 24 WvW populations to ever get evenly matched, they could even do a analysis of current match scores for transfer incentive. On a % based scale, if one of the servers in the tier has under 15-20% (number up for debate) of the total score between all three servers, give incentive to transfer to that server that instant. The larger the score differences, the larger the incentive to tranfer. That would at least help balance each tier to the point they all were fun again.

Dreams aside, let’s keep this positive and civil discussion up! (And on the front page.) Hopefully, we might one day get a Red-Card response, if only so much as “We’re aware of the problem, but have no way to fix it at this time. Please be patient.”

I need to stop posting walls of text…

Catisa.6507:

Takerukun.8924:

And the sentry is mainly there to just hinder and/or stop enemy dolyaks from passing. For the most part, they do that just fine as they are.

Really? The sentry cannot even kill a dolyak. Sentries are a joke. Sentries should be an upgrade option at the nearest camp or tower/keep/castle. The default sentry needs a serious buffing too.

Touche. To be honest, I’ve never bothered to sit and watch a sentry at work to see if it really did kill the dolyak. I’d just naively assumed that ANet hadn’t overlooked balance that badly.

You know, I can’t find any obvious flaws in your arguments in regards to fun or balance. In hindsight, it does seem kind of lame that an NPC archer would sit and shoot a bow at you when there’s a perfectly servicable cannon beside them. And not being able to help the worker, or at least give the worker your own supply seems counter-intuitive. As much as I can’t see anyboby coding this any time soon (even by the March update is unrealistic if this isn’t already in their proposed changes for that update), I’m in agreement with you. +1

Mind you, I’m not sure if I’d agree with the dolyak guard and sentry upgrade. The dolyak guards despawn when the dolyak is killed anyway, so making the guards better wouldn’t have an effect on the majority who just focus the dolyak down. And the sentry is mainly there to just hinder and/or stop enemy dolyaks from passing. For the most part, they do that just fine as they are.