Showing Posts For Thane.9421:
One problem with that Sly… everyone knew what was happening even before the tournament started. Teams were scrambling and reshaping at the top tier because of this.
Two very simple points.
1) You can destroy projectiles with shroud 2 and
2) Necro relies on CC to mitigate damage rather than blocks.
Using auto-target is a mistake. There are too many situations it’ll pick the wrong target, and too many skills which have different and better functionality when you can use them without a target. Learn to love clicking and tabbing.
Agree with OP’s initial point, not so much with the top stats modifier ( there are too many situations where someone is contributing but not directly to a top stat, like with kiting enemies. Also classes that are hybrid would lose out, because while they are performing in multiple top stat categories, they aren’t getting the TOP stat in that category.)
But seriously Anet, listen to the community here. Gains/losses need to be based on TEAM MMR. NOT personal MMR.
Just coming in to point out something that lower MMR players not be realizing:
Low population is the #1 biggest problem for Spvp, yes. But rewarding points off of personal MMR rather than team MMR also discourages higher ranked players from playing unless it’s on an alt accounts. And the alt accounts going around are probably the #2 biggest issue this season.
This mechanic is WHY op got such a disparity of rating gain/loss in his matches. It’s not the QUALITY of the match that is the problem, it is the ACTUAL POINTS GAINED/LOST.
Solution: rating gained or lost based on TEAM MMR.
The season where we had something like this implemented were by far the most enjoyable seasons imo. Nothing makes you want to quit pvp like losing matches where you’re performing but pugs you have no control over playing with throw.
Also, a related point: the idea that good players have to “carry” the bad ones is pretty laughable. Watch streams of some of the best players in the game, and you’ll see them lose matches because of teammates kitten ing. With a good duo, it’s better, but mostly only if at least one of the duo is playing on a low MMR alt account. Queue both on main account, and if you are Gold T3 or higher, you are going to have clueless teammates who will throw.
100% agree with everything Saiyan said, and Reikou’s #2 point. The match manipulation is a real factor this season, and imo the prevalence is a result of discouraging players who have reached a desired rank from continuing to play at that rank any more than necessary. The logic is like this:
Step 1: Player reaches a desired top 250 spot, or hits plat, or high gold, or whatever they are aiming for.
Step 2: Player is punished more for losses than they gain for wins, thanks to points being calculated off PERSONAL MMR instead of TEAM MMR.
Step3: It is therefor undesirable for player to play any more games than are strictly necessary to avoid decay and remain on the boards (assuming they are actually after a board position. Player gets on an alt account!
Step 4: Player is already on an alt account, and:
A: Duo queues up with a buddy, but hey, player messes around more on this alt and therefor has lower MMR here, and how about that, it helps out their buddy to climb, because player is drawing a lower MMR opponent for them!
B: Player sees one of those top ranking competitors on his team, and man, they really don’t want to give that competitor a win. I’m not saying player is throwing the match per se, but their heart isn’t in it, they just don’t play that hard. Or for some people, they do just straight out throw.
Conclusion: as a result of the way personal MMR effects points gained/lost at the end of a match, I think you can see a clear incremental decision making process that would lead to behaviors that taken in whole looks an awful lot like deliberate match manipulation. And as we all know, there’s no real recourse for players to report and see anything get done about this with any consistency.
Solution: Swap to TEAM MMR for determining points gained/lost so that higher ranked players only have to maintain that 50% win rate against equal opponents to maintain rank… you know, the 50% win rate that the MMR system is attempting to generate to begin with.
Much logic.
I’d rather wait thirty minutes for a queue pop than waste 15 minutes playing with trash players who rage and afk and have it tank my rating. I can alt+tab, it’s cool.
Spvp is a team format game. Being able to form teams and learn to play with them is, by design, supposed to be part of the format. So, being able to play with good players is part of the skill here. And good players are not generally interested in carrying scrubs. They want someone who will carry their weight, because back when there were five man queues and more active high mmr players, sometimes real teams would queue up together.
tldr: Spvp isn’t 1v1, it’s a team format game. If you don’t allow teams, you actually ARE NOT seeing at least half of the relevant skill set to the format. If people want to see raw mechanical skill vs raw mechanical skill, Anet needs to introduce a 1v1 format with its own leaderboard. Otherwise, honestly I’m sick of hearing this idea that teams ’aren’t fair’ (as if getting queued with bronze-silvers or people who afk properly reflects your skill in your rating.)
Just wanted to say I think this is exciting news! And also that there’s nothing wrong with cash prizes, or ‘bringing back pro league players’ (quite a few still play, tbh.)
One of the many issues I think the post-HoT pvp scene had was that the pro leagues were separated out so much from the general populace. Once upon a time, it was not uncommon at high mmr to go against duo and triple queues of top tier players, and that was a good thing. We want a better skill level, to push others to get better.
Also, honestly, there’s an obvious reductio ad absurdem here. There will always be some players better than other players, and therefor always players who would ‘benefit’ by having the top players bumped off. Do we want to be left with nothing but trash? I think not.
Above all else, we need the pvp community to grow. Anet clearly isn’t doing much in this regard – or if they are, going incommunicado isn’t helping. So priority #1 should be increasing the number of active players, whether by inspiring new players, or retaining old ones. The more we have, the more possibility of multiple tournaments, the better our matchmaking, and the more attention Anet will give pvp as well.
tldr; Cash is fine, yes we want pro players, hell we want any players we can get. If spvp dies, it’ll be from low population. And thanks Jebro!
Yes, but let’s be honest. What percentage of the time are such reports acted on? I’m not saying every report should necessarily result in punishment, we all know some people abuse the report feature also. But tbh reporting feels like an empty threat.
Just want to throw my two cents in: automated tournaments could be what keeps GW2 PVP alive in this post-Esports era. Right now, there’s simply not a reason to put in the work to build a team. I think a weekly tournament would be ideal, bi-weekly would be… acceptable, anything less than that you aren’t going to have teams staying together for. Unless the prizes are seriously increased.
I also kind of hope Pro League is dead, but Anet needs to switch gears faster and turn at least a fraction of the energy they put in to Pro Leagues into regular pvp tournaments, like old ESL weekly/monthly and AG. To echo what Ryan said, with this solo/duo queue stuff, teams need a reason to exist. Right now it’s like Anet has actually gone anti-team for spvp.
Good to know I won’t be playing Season 6, then.
Normalizing the jumping puzzles on both sides is a fine idea, but this new map takes all the risk/reward out of jumping. I mean there are literally staircases.
The new tower looks worse, and is way less interesting, losing the multi-level aspects old Kyhlo had.
Is this going to be a trend? Dumbing down all the kiting/jumping on maps? Seems pretty weak.
Can we please stop creating incentives for players to take actions in PvP other than doing their best to win the match? I’m all for giving new players a reason to play PvP and get some loot for doing it – but if we’re gonna bring in new players, let’s train them right from the beginning. If whatever you are doing results in a win, it’s a behavior we want to encourage. If it results in a loss, no cookie for you. This is how you create solid players.
Just in here to echo that it’s not just paid tournaments that are lacking, the whole competitive environment is falling apart. With the interviews during the last Worlds and the end of AG, it was pretty obvious where things were going.
It’s too bad, because I think competitive GW2 is a pretty unique experience, and I’m not sure there’s another game out there that is a good substitution. There are plenty of high-skill cap team games, don’t get me wrong, but for me, FPS just aren’t as engaging.
Oh well, maybe if Anet had invested more into creating an in-game architecture for creating tournaments and generating rewards, and had been consistent with balancing PvP separately from PvE, and focused first on building an actual competitive community of decent size before actually dividing that community into sponsored Pros and the rest of us, they might still have something to work with. But they didn’t.
Every time I hear this type of complaint, I think of all the times I’ve crushed a 5 man with a few decent pugs, and shake my head.
I agree with everything the OP said, though the only reason I’d want to see an MMR reset is just so Anet can have the illusion shattered that their system is working. No matter how good you are, there are teams you can’t carry, as anyone who has watched high level streams knows is true. The soft MMR reset is protecting some of the standing from last season, creating a somewhat more consistent model of last season, but I’m convinced in a hard MMR reset with the duo queue restriction this would not be the case.
TBH Anet, if you want a gamemode where pure individual skill is all that is taken into account, create some kind of 1v1 or at least Random Arenas style deathmatch mode where there’s no respawn, just one team fight and it’s over, wash and repeat. Conquest is about teamwork. T E A M work.
Solo/duo queue limitations has officially made this season completely impossible for me to enjoy, despite the fact that I was excited about all of the other changes.
Even when I’m maintaining or gaining ground, just dealing with three or four pugs every match makes it completely not worth it.
Combine this with the end of AG, and tbh I am wondering why I still log in anymore. GG anet, I’m done.
Class roles are not a player invention, they are just logic at work. There’s always going to be a build each class has that is more or less the best, and because different classes have different mechanics, certain classes will excel at certain roles. The only way to negate that would be to make all classes functionally the same.
Does anyone else get the idea Anet doesn’t understand classes have roles in pvp? They act like they want any class to be able to fulfill any role, but that’s ridiculous. Scepter dps ele, lol.
Also, 55% and 33% nerfs on Rev plus a survivability nerf? RIP power rev, you had four seasons.
To clarify my original point, I don’t think Anet needs to add more PvP content in the sense that we need some more shiny rewards or new maps or a new game mode. We need more tournaments and better leaderboards. More open, inclusive tournaments that encourage new teams to form and try to get themselves known. Leaderboards that take actual work to climb and give a decent reflection of player skill.
All competitive players need is something to actually compete for besides scrims or trolling unranked.
There absolutely needs to be a competitive scene outside of ESL on this game (the status of which is currently questionable, anyway.) Otherwise, ESL just stagnates, and everyone just stops giving a kitten .
This last couple months, I literally watched several new teams form and start scrimming regularly and entering AG just because of ToL – it really doesn’t take that much to invigorate the pvp community, we just need something to work towards. With AG ending and a ranked season incoming where teams literally won’t even be allowed to queue together ranked, it’s not looking great.
Time to step up Anet, pvp isn’t fueled by a handful of teams getting a big payout, it’s driven by competition your players can actually participate in.
Anet devs give plenty of attention to pvp. The problem is not attention, it is that the actual division of labor and structure of devs at anet make it basically impossible to keep pvp balanced. They can add all the pvp content in the world, but they can’t balance a simple skill/class without having to evaluate the impact on every single game format, because balance is handled by a single team for WvW, Raids, Fractals, general PvE, and PvP.
Also anet has a policy in GW2 (unlike GW1) of not splitting skills to be different in different formats of play. So skills/classes have to be balanced for 5v5, zerg v zerg, zerg v world boss, guild v raid, and 5 v fractal. Good luck with that, anet.
This is why I quit GW2 PvP after running a team for two years, and playing since beta.
Also a further note on my point 2…
Anet really needs to look at the bigger picture. Yes, we do want people to come in to PvP from PvE. But if Anet actually wants to build a legit GW2 Esports scene that is more than, well…. backwater, then they need to create the kind of PvP environment that would bring new players to the game specifically for pvp.
And you know what turns off PvP players? Games where the balance is so bad that multiple classes are seen as unplayable. Arguably one of the strongest things about GW2 PvP is the flexibility of build design and team design, and keeping every class viable is the single most important thing Anet needs to do to build on that strength.
Don’t get me wrong, creating additional build diversity by bringing new builds into play is a great idea, but when a whole class is out of serious play, we can’t forget how many new players this can alienate, whether it’s new PvE players who can’t bring their favorite toon to PvP without being a burden, or entirely new GW2 players who look into the game and are put off by the lack of balance.
To go further on my first point, separating PvE and PvP skills/traits obviously isn’t going to be the first choice when balancing something. Sometimes, something is just plain OP, and flat out needs a nerf, and that’s all well and good. But let me go to my alacrity example again: this was in need of such a severe nerf specifically mostly because of the effect it was having on raids. In PvP, chances are a mesmer would be lucky to effect 1-2 other people with their alacrity, because of the point control focus of the format.
I would argue that it is actually more complicated to try and balance a single set of skills for such a diverse set of criteria than it is to isolate out the problematic format with a given skill and give that format its own specific solution.
Also, given that there are separate development teams for different formats, I suspect this could simplify the balancing process at Anet. Instead of one team coming forward with a proposal for a balance change which then has to be reconciled with the big picture, each team can control the balance in their own formats. Less groupthink, more targeted team management of balance.
Lastly, the how is not really the question. Skills already were balanced this way in GW1, and some specific skills actually have been made different in PvP/PvE in GW2 in the past, so the coding is clearly not a problem. I suspect ‘the problem’ is a philosophy of wanting the game unified for a combination of aesthetic and organizational (internally to anet, re: approvals for changes and whatnot) reasons, along with perhaps a concern with making the game too complex for new players to approach. This last concern is silly though: those who are new to the game would hardly notice the balance shifts between skills that still too more or less similar things, and those players who are more advanced in a given format will be familiar enough with the game and their chosen format to understand the differences.
Hi, I’m Thane, team captain of Theory of Relativity [EMC], what I would consider a mid-level team that has been competitive in many tournaments. As a devoted PvP player with a team that has been together for over a year, and a devoted Guild Wars fan who has been playing since GW1, I’d like to make a few observations at this pivotal time with Colin Johanson leaving the picture.
PvP in an MMO is a funny thing. The most successful Esports games are typically 100% PvP – League, that sort of thing. They are accessible, arguably balanced, and have top level players who can get 20k+ viewers on twitch at times. These games are 100% committed to their PvP experience, something that just isn’t possible in an MMO.
That being said.
1. PvP and PvE need to have separate skill/trait balancing. I don’t know why exactly you’ve gone back and forth on resorting to this, and while I’m sure on paper a game where skills always operate the same way sounds wonderful, the simple fact is that there is not enough flexibility with builds and skills to have them be balanced in raids, in fractals, in WvW, against world bosses and in PvP. 5v5 point contention, 20 v 20 zerg fights, 50 v 1 enormous boss, you just aren’t going to make that work. Let me give an example: the nerf to alacrity took mesmer almost completely out of the meta for PvP. This brings me to the next point.
2a. When a class is forced completely out of the meta, it needs to be absolute top priority for your PvP team to bring it back in line with the other classes. In particular, now that Pro Leagues are limiting teams to no class stacking, the fact that there are two classes arguably out of the meta right now is just not acceptable. Not only does this disenfranchise some of your top players, but imagine the frustration of being a new player who is in love with and only really knows one class, and arriving in PvP to be greeted in every match with “great, a warrior, I might as well AFK.” Is this a lot to ask? Also, as a corollary:
3. The format for ranked and Pro leagues should be the same. If Pro Leagues eliminates class stacking, so should ranked play. This would honestly do a lot to assist balance, and even though obviously most teams will never get to the Pro Leagues, that’s the dream. You WANT us to want to grind ranked because we are striving to reach the pro level. Ranked team play should feel like the road to the Pro Leagues, even if it’s a road most will never reach the end of. Keep the two consistent if possible.
4. Don’t reinvent the wheel. We all love how committed Guild Wars 2 is to doing new and edgy things, but not so much that it justifies lack of balance. When you’ve got classes that aren’t playable in PvP, instead of picking some arbitrary new build you want to FORCE into the meta, why not look at the builds that have actually worked on that class in the past, and try and bring a couple of those in line with current builds. Builds work for a lot of reasons – one of the important things is that a given build can’t be outclassed at doing the exact same thing on a team by another build, or it just won’t see play (and the players who do play it will be given grief.) So instead of, say, for example, trying to buff rifle, a weapon that has never been taken seriously in PvP on warrior, why not take a look at good old longbow, a weapon that was a lynchpin of Hambow, Shoutbow, and GS/longbow, all of which were meta warrior builds in their time. When something isn’t working, sometimes you should look at when it was working.
5. Balance based on high level play, not low level play. As much as it might frustrate some new players to get shut down by the occasional ‘easy to play’ spike build, a healthy high level game is essential to the health of the game overall. Bad players are going to get wrecked by things that they shouldn’t, and some builds are just easier to play, so they come out stronger at low skill levels. Often times, these are going to be builds that can put out a high amount of pressure, because less skilled players aren’t proficient at kiting and dodging effectively. Nerfing based on these complaints results in bunk meta, and boring high level play, or classes being drummed out of the meta, like has happened with Dragon Hunter. It is also honestly not a favor to the low level players.
6. Get these PvE rewards that every Guild Wars 2 player feels entitled to out of our ranked PvP. The way to get more people invested in PvP isn’t to railroad PvE players into it! PvP needs NEW players that are interested BECAUSE OF PVP. Players who will log the hours to play the THOUSANDS OF GAMES it takes to actually become top players, or even mid tier players, honestly. Sure, PvP players want some swag, but what we don’t want is PvE players coming in to ‘get their dailies’ or players wanting MMR to somehow create an artificially even playing field where anyone can climb to Legendary if they just play a lot, because they want their shiny wings. No. Create parallel systems to get the same items/skins in PvE and PvP involving similar amounts of effort, so you aren’t forcing PvP people to grind PvE or PvE people to grind PvP, and you’d be doing your community a huge favor.
7. Season are neat, but the ladders and ranks need to be permanent. Refresh them at the start of a season, sure. But forcing everyone into unranked while the seasons are inactive is like cruel and unusual punishment. Not only does it make a mess of MMR, it forces us to play on maps that are utterly irrelevant to ranked players, and honestly turns the heart of the mist into a ghost town.
8. Put some stuff to do in Heart of the Mist. A jumping puzzle? Mini games? ANYTHING? As much as I love killing the same 3-4 npcs at a time thousands of times, actually no, no I don’t love spending that much of my time logged into GW2 just…. waiting. Addressing queue times is an excellent step here, but you all could definitely improve quality of life for PvP players by giving us a bit more to do in HotM.
9. Maybe give some love to hot joins, I don’t know. Create a reason that non-serious, less competitive players might actually WANT to do unranked or hot join play, instead of feeling like if they don’t do ranked they aren’t making progress. Maybe bring back Zaishen quests? Make arenas less expensive? Open up more options in arenas, rather than wasting time on Guild Hall pvp arenas, where you can’t use amulets?
10. Start working on a way to poll top tier players for input on balance. Whether you open a test server, send out surveys, monitor top level play, or a combination of all, it needs to happen. It’s painfully obvious that some of these balance decisions are made by people who don’t have a very deep grasp of PvP strategy, builds and team composition. You have a community where some people have dedicated their time to thousands on thousands of games… utilize that, it’s just ridiculous not to.
I’m sure there are many who will disagree with a lot of what I’ve said here, but at the end of the day, Anet: you need to decide who your audience is, and make a product that will appeal to them. Whether that is your current PvE players, or potential GW2 players who might be drawn in by a more balanced, competitive PvP game with a robust Pro League and top level play to entice them.
Very simply, forcing all pvp players outside of Guild Challenger seasons to play on Skyhammer and Spirit Watch is obnoxious and a waste of our time. These maps are not going to be part of Pro League play or ranked Guild Challenger league play. If Guild Wars 2 wants to foster a healthy e-sports community, we need better control over the maps we play, it’s that simple. Having one solo queue player force 9 people into wasting 20 minutes of their life playing Skyhammer is not ‘fun.’ It is frustrating.
Slayer has it right. A warrior in melee range is a joke when up against bunker mesmer, reaper, scrapper and dragon hunter. Adding additional dps to berserker isn’t going to fix the problem. And the team support shoutbow provides is now thoroughly outclasses along with its 1v1 ability.
Warrior is in a sad place, and until it gets more viable sustain and/or ranged pressure added, I doubt we’ll see it on top teams. When Rom goes off warrior, you know there’s a problem.
I have to agree. Testing this, the most OP factor is the quickness, and even so, to achieve really high quickness you need to be running things to extend boon duration, which most likely means Runes of the Traveler. With those runes, you aren’t going to do OP damage.
Another point is that “We Heal As One” handicaps Rangers when it comes to dealing with conditions. Many Ranger builds rely on Healing Spring for condition removal, and if not, we are probably talking condi/survival Ranger which relies on Troll Unguent and Entangle. To run boon Ranger, you’re forced to split utilities between shouts and survival skills, making you much more vulnerable to condi. The swiftness and regen uptime while running Travelers on condi survival is pretty meaningless, as you already have 25% move buff and you have no healing stat.
Might uptime compared with other classes is insignificant. For D/D or D/F or Engi, 25 stacks of might is simple in their normal rotations. For a Ranger with “We Heal As One” it requires staying close with a pet that stops moving for 3s, utilizing a heal for the boon share rather than for damage, and we are talking 17s of might. This also means using the juvenile jungle stalker rather than your hawk or wolf, and time spent with your pet not attacking which is a reduction in overall dps and/or utility.
Ultimately I didn’t see a significant increase in effectiveness using “WHAO” when it comes to PvP play. After the nerf, I fully expect it to go right back to being considered non-viable.
We are looking for an experienced team player who is communicative, committed and flexible. Must be available Sunday for ESL and Monday for AG, or you need not apply. As a general guideline, you should have the following:
*3k + games, or the ability to demonstrate mastery of your class.
*Ability to learn and play new classes when/if we need to change comp
*A chill attitude, but still able to focus
*Open mindedness and willingness to take criticism without taking it personally
*Team experience preferred, but not mandatory
Message either Wizard of Words or Mark Thane in game
Theory of Relativity is looking for other competitive tournament – playing teams to scrim against, as well as to arrange 2v2s and 3v3s for practice. We’re also open to 2v2s and such with partial teams, provided we’re on a comparable skill level.
For anyone interested, please contact me directly here, or message Wizard of Words or Mark Thane in game. We look forward to the matches!
Since the most recent update, I have been having progressively worse overheating issues when running Guild Wars 2. All other games and programs run fine. Running GW2 will spike my CPU from 39C to over 75C. Adjusting graphics settings seems to have no real impact. Currently this renders the game unplayable for me, when in the past I was able to run the game with high settings very smoothly.
Any help would be much appreciated!