Guild Wars 2

I would prefer some level of clipping.

Cyninja.2954:

Tornupto.2304:

Cyninja.2954:

EDIT: if you want to compare damage numbers, perfect rotation cPS on the training dummy gets to about 20-21k. In raid scenarios depending on boss fights and group composition it’s realistic to land 11-13k with not perfect rotations, with ideal boss fights and good play toping at 15-17k. If you are sub 10k on cPS you really need to work on your rotation no matter which boss.

Ehm. 20-21k are realistic to many bosses. On the golem you should go way higher with a good rotation.

Condition PS, not condition berserker. Difference there bud.

He knows lol, benchmark from qt for condition ps is 27.4k, not 20-21k…

Biggest point people really need to grasp is that not all content is designed for everyone to play, they made raids for the players who like to min-max reasonably, research/learn builds and strategies in depth, have excellent knowledge of their class/classes and good mechanical skill. They didn’t make an easy mode so if you go into raids and are not one of these players then you’re gonna have a hard time.

With regards to the OP, training runs don’t have to be all inclusive, they tend to actually be the least productive ones when they are. Some commanders may like to actually train people who are at end-game level and want to succeed and go on to kill the bosses within the run rather than just go for a jolly wipe-fest with players who don’t know what toughness is.

Problem here is that you are an extreme outlier, they can’t be altering plans heavily and taking on more work that isn’t generating much, if any revenue based on satisfying a handful of people. In this case you should have mailed support and asked if you could get an alternative reward, I’m sure that they would have obliged and imo a bespoke solution like that is appropriate in this case.

By not even knowing what li’s are you immediately tell people that you haven’t done much if any research into raids. By coming across as a person who lacks initiative you’re also much more likely to not really know your class well and certainly not know the mechanics well. This in turn means you are probably going to be dead-weight in the raids and as a druid it’s even worse, you probably will contribute a lot more to the entire raid failing.

As fishball said, most people you class as ‘elitist’ became ‘elitist’ because of their desire to avoid apathetic players like you. I’ve seen plenty of new players dodge the entire li gate and join experienced groups because they display a proactive ideology, are eager to learn and have done good preparation, unlike yourself.

I’m glad you came to the conclusion to go back to dungeons, raids weren’t designed to be completed successfully by players with your attitude.

I repeat myself, the story of the raid was so superficial that you don’t build up a feeling, a relationship or anything else to the given npc (Benett or others) as a casual player. If you are a lore hunter or somebody like that with such deep feelings for story etc., you belong to a very small amount of the playerbase – a very very very very very small one to be honest.
And then it’s ok to invest some time or effort to play the raids or just read the notes.
But don’t pretend that the lore is inaccessible to a broader spectrum of the playerbase. The vast majority if not almost all of the players are completely pleased about the story. They don’t need the involvement of the raid part. Sorry to say, but your thing is very special-snowflake-like.

For the average player in this game there is only one question:
Does the raid has any additional information at all or any important detail to tell players aren’t gaining throughout playing the LS3?

And this question can be answered with a pure: “No!”

Lol, if I didn’t do the raids I wouldn’t have a clue how Lazarus randomly showed up from his severely weakened state. If I did do the raids, I’d realise that the white mantle working under Xera were responsible and chose to hide the information from Caudecus, creating a fundamental split in the white mantle.

Frankly you try to display your opinions as facts when they aren’t facts and use numbers such as 0% and 100% to try and make your arguments seem intelligent, pro tip – don’t make up statistics based on your opinion, it looks very amateurish and diminishes the validity of any arguments you make.

The raid story is a direct prequel of LS3. Whether or not you think the events were important enough to be told to non-raiders is what is up for debate. The answer to that is also fully opinionated. All you are trying to do is say that their opinion is wrong and the events are not important enough and yours is right, there are no ‘facts’ in that.

Blaeys.3102:

Ranael.6423:

So much disrespect for your fellow player… You are probably trying to compensate your lack of skill by showing that you are more intellectual than the others and that you are more interested in the story while raiders are stupid players who don’t care of the story and only fight bosses to get their loot….

No disrespect meant to raiders – seeing as I am one.

This isn’t about taking sides. I truly do see an issue here. Be careful of personal comments when you don’t know the person.

Tbh it’s clear that a lot of people arguing against you are simply thinking this is an anti-raid thread like most others. They are blinded and will not listen to even the most obvious arguments. The raid story is a direct prequel to the events of LS3. Some people like Vince claim relevance and necessity to be the same thing which is not the case.

Of course you can understand and follow LS3 without doing the raid, where the f did anyone say that you can’t. That doesn’t make the raid story irrelevant to LS3, honestly what is wrong with some people…

If Anet choose not to share the prequel plot to everyone as a conscious decision fine, it’s their game and their rules and is an enticement to do raids (which I love doing), but to say that – It’s ok guys, it’s a cracking prequel written and planned well with an enlightening twist at the end that makes you question the white mantle’s unity itself, demonstrated at the climax of the first episode of LS3, but don’t worry, it’s not absolutely necessary to the main story and you can still follow what’s going on – is the biggest cop-out I’ve heard from a gaming company.

Any story can be followed with the barebones of details. Adding flesh to these details is what gives a rich story experience. Is one cutscene (doesn’t even have to be animated, quality still-frame ones are better imo) explaining all this so much to ask? (Even I could do it ffs).

See Warhammer 40k for example, I don’t need to know the details of the Horus Heresy to follow how the Imperium of Man came about. But boy is the overall lore and story of the creation of the Imperium of Man much more exciting after reading it.

Vinceman.4572:

hardy.7469:

Everything that happened in there is directly relevant and vital to the story of the LS… Okay.

No, it isn’t. It’s the other way round. The raid lore is completely irrelevant. 100% irrelevant.

Everything else of your post can be neglected.

Definition of relevant: closely connected or appropriate to the matter in hand.

And you say that the re-empowering of Lazarus by members of the white mantle that have likely done so against the wishes of their confessor (Caudecus) is 100% irrelevant. By all means defend having part of the main story in a raid, I’m fine with that, disagreeing on relevance however is just a tad child-ish (arguing for the sake of it) in this case tbh.

Game of Thrones Spoilers:

It’s like saying how John Snow got revived is irrelevant to the story in GoT, all that’s relevant is that he got revived. Pretty sure anybody can see that who, how and by whom he was revived is critically important, it influences many other decisions in the show, e.g why he doesn’t execute Melissandre, potential relationship with other Lord of Light followers.

Usually I’m on the other side of an argument with regards to raids but in this case it’s pretty obvious that the raid story is quite important and relevant to the LS3 story.

Spoilers:

The resummoning/re-empowering of Lazarus happens in the raid. You find out that the white mantle hired bandits to kidnap people who are then sacrificed to summon Lazarus. The place where he was awakened was in the stronghold of the faithful, a huge settlement built next to the bloodstone in order to harness its energy, he was awakened by Xera and importantly Caudecus didn’t know about the re-summoning in LS3 episode 1.

One of the most climactic parts of LS3 episode 1 (Lazarus suddenly appearing when we thought he was gone and challenging Caudecus) is explained by the raid story. The recap cutscene is just simply insufficient and doesn’t explain the raid story other than the white mantle were working in the shadows.

The raid story also introduces some intriguing speculation:

Were the white mantle working under High Inquisitor Xera hiding their work from Confessor Caudecus? Had they simply hid their work or completely disobeyed orders from Caudecus? Even the name of the stronghold could have some meaning, ‘Stronghold of the Faithful’ – A faction secretly faithful to the mursaat? whereas the rest of the white mantle are simply loyal to Caudecus and his aspirations for power.

Most of this interesting speculation and knowledge is unknown if you didn’t follow the raid story which isn’t really good tbh. It’s not that the story shouldn’t have been put into the raids but it should have been explained clearly in a much more detailed video.

Thanks for the laugh, probably would have kicked you too, not for the pack runes but for your condescending attitude.

Phoenix.1370:

Dominik.5162

Whatever. I’m done talking. It’s obvious I cannot get through to certain people. Mindlessly defend meta more. Don’t know why I expected more from people, or an actual response to more than just meta.

This is all you have homed in on “meta meta meta meta” blatantly ignoring my other points. Sorry but idiots deserve to be called out. If you ignore my other points and harp on about just 1 point then you are an idiot mindlessly defending something you use instead of adressing the other points I made.

Something something toxicity, hostility.

Phoenix.1370:

I’m choosing to ignore toxic posts by toxic people clearly just wanting to assault me for refusing to be a meta drone instead of addressing the topic at hand.

Rashy.4165

Not everyone has ascended, not easiest thing to get the specific ones, I happen to be lucky and got a decent few zerker ones for my rev along with weapons for him
Kinda unrealistic to some who do not have luck or pvp or has not tried fractals/raids before as they are usually more common from there apart from dung specific ones.

Again, this is circular. You need experience to get in, to get in your need experience. I have no such experience as I have yet to find a group to even make a first attempt. Hardly positive or helpful from community. “Oh sure, you can join in, as long as you have tried before”…not tried? SOL

The barriers I have listed are from around 15 or so groups I’ve attempted to join/contact all without sucess all requiring unrealistic requirments. Either this content you need to get REALLYlucky with or be part of an already helpful guild.

What is optimal to one person may not be optimal to another. Playing with a build or weapon you are unfamiliar with and cannot perform up to standard with even if they are the most best thing in the world, will be detrimental to the team and be counter productive.
I cannot even get in to try out the content in order to make correct adjustments to perform better due to the barriers I’ve experienced, I have no idea if the “meta” will be the best for me, I have a feeling it won’t. The barriers prevent me from trying/adapting or learning.

Keep spewing out buzzwords buddy, I’m sure they’ll mean something someday if you believe hard enough!

Sigh, again more toxic attitude. Prime example of what is wrong. “My way or the highway” attitude when it comes to certain things.

As opposed to making me your slave and forcing me to play with you, in the way that you want? Seems like you are just as much of an advocate of the ‘my way or the highway’ approach. Actually you are even worse, you want to control how people play without even dealing with the hassle of leading a squad. You want to join someone else’s squad and then force them to accept you regardless of what you do.

Something something toxic attitude…

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

It seems this thread is completly derailing and turning into “what you are doing wrong” THIS ISN’T ABOUT ME this isn’t about me specifically and my builds, again I’d post on revenant forum to discuss if it was.

Please get back on topic.

This topic was about the difficulty of newcomers getting into it, regardless of builds.

There is too many barriers and too few support for newcomers getting in, this has been my experience for atleast a week and a half now.

And the attitude such as this as hostile to newcomers. This may not be the experience of all, but it certainly has me. Requirments for most entry level is ridiculous and unrealistic and the few training guilds are very hostile/toxic in their attitudes. This has been my experience. That is all.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT YOU, you opened this thread!
You feel that there are barriers, but the reasons you showed in this thread are not! That’s why people are trying to show you why you might be feeling those “barriers”, but you refuse to listen.
Your attitude is bad, That is all.

This thread is about my experience and the experience of others attempting this content. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

Your experience is caused by your attitude. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

My experience is caused by the attitude of others. You don’t see it because you seem to be one of those “others”

In most cases where build is an issue it’s “my way or the highway” which is hardly productive.

The attitude I seem to see and the theme seems to be “teach what to think, not how to think” when the opposite should be true.

Feel free to make your own squad and impose whatever rules you want. If too scared, deal with other people’s rules. Simple really.

Phoenix.1370:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

There’s a decent amount of people in your shoes. Try creating a non-rep guild to find like minded people and go try the raids together, great tactics are already made available to you via websites and videos if you choose to use them, or if you want an authentic experience try to figure them out yourself like many experienced raiders did.

Expecting someone to teach you for no other incentive is a bit too optimistic, the experienced raiders also play this game for fun and teaching inexperienced people all the time, many of whom will not adapt or listen in order to improve, isn’t most people’s idea of fun. I started late (March) and sought out the rare players who were charitable enough to teach me. Importantly I understood that they were actively taking a hit to their entertainment a lot of the time just to help me, I was grateful rather than advocating my birth-right forcing them to teach all the time.

The main problem is that there are far fewer than 1 in 10 leaders who are somewhat new to raiding. Instead of being proactive and trying to lead they more commonly whine on forums.

I don’t expect anything. Where have I stated that I do? My issue is the attitude people have developed over raids. Mostly being elitist. I understand that the few that do teach do so with little to gain. my issue is there is too few and too big a gap for newcomers to get in, that provides a problem that the community and the content have created.

Too steep a mountain for newcomers to be able to join in and too little incentive or reason to include them. That is what should be fixed, either with fixing something or making it more appealing/rewarding to include newcomers.

I am not “whining” on forums. I am stating an issue I have experienced with content in the game. and my experience with people and community in this. Sure I could do it myself, and chances are I will, it still does not change the fact that some other people who will come after me will run into the same barriers and elitist attitudes.

Shouldn’t something that is clearly detrimental to some players being able to experience content be fixed?

Your entire post is complaining about how the ‘elitists’ don’t want to either teach you in a training run or simply carry you through the raid whilst you try learn yourself (btw anyone asking for a requirement for anything in the world is an elitist by your definition so it’s not much of an insult). It basically epitomises the problem, the majority of new/late raiders have attitudes like yours expecting someone else to lead and organise meaning nobody is leading and organising.

There’s a decent amount of people in your shoes. Try creating a non-rep guild to find like minded people and go try the raids together, great tactics are already made available to you via websites and videos if you choose to use them, or if you want an authentic experience try to figure them out yourself like many experienced raiders did.

Expecting someone to teach you for no other incentive is a bit too optimistic, the experienced raiders also play this game for fun and teaching inexperienced people all the time, many of whom will not adapt or listen in order to improve, isn’t most people’s idea of fun. I started late (March) and sought out the rare players who were charitable enough to teach me. Importantly I understood that they were actively taking a hit to their entertainment a lot of the time just to help me, I was grateful rather than advocating my birth-right forcing them to teach all the time.

The main problem is that there are far fewer than 1 in 10 leaders who are somewhat new to raiding. Instead of being proactive and trying to lead they more commonly whine on forums.

Shiyo.3578:

Idk I went into a training run with 1 experiened player and 9 new/“knows some” to the fight and killed KC in less than an hour. I didn’t watch a video or have any idea what the boss did prior to fighting it.

My bad, I guess your cherry picked anecdotal evidence of an outlier clearly disproves the trends observed by most.

I’ll be looking for only new players from now on, I’ll get the raid done super quick guaranteed.

They have every right to choose who they want to play with, just like you have every right to choose who you want to play with. The difference is they actually put up an lfg to find the people they want to play with (experienced) whereas you come to the forums to complain instead of putting up an lfg to find the people you want to play with (no experience required).

munki.6402:

STIHL.2489:

But remember, you do play a role if the game does start to die, because you were the one that wanted to exclude people, and told them to get out if they didn’t like it.

+1 Interesting that not even the forum specialist can see the danger of this “gtfo if you can’t hang” attitude that a lot of the consistent posters in the sub spew.

Interesting how people can only see this point through their own tinted glasses. A great deal of players who raid nowadays only play GW2 because raids exist. By telling them that they can’t have raids or other challenging PvE content you are doing exactly the same thing as you are accusing people of doing, i.e. excluding them from the game.

You are telling them to get out if they don’t like it.

The key difference between the two requests is one party tries to wipe out the others content entirely whereas the other simply wants them to work on both, even accepting that they should split resources accordingly to pleasing the majority/minority, which they have done currently.

I think it’s pretty obvious who the truly selfish people in this affair are.

I should also have the right to choose who I play with, and a part of that, should not be being forced to deal with egotistical elitist entitled jerks that think they are better then other people.

You do have that right, nobody said you didn’t.

Nobody is forcing you to play with them, why don’t you try find like-minded people and play with them instead, did they release a patch where only “elitist jerks” can search for groups on lfg?

Frankly I don’t care whether or not people believe my estimate, I provided a lower limit which I always surpass unless 2 more maps fail (happened once) and an upper limit if I get a great group/good luck. It’s actually better for me if more people don’t try it tbh.

Besides this, the whole point was to show that you only need 14g/hr to make it a more efficient way of making money. I also provided two other farming methods, both of which easily surpass this required rate, one of which can be accessed fully by someone who can only press 1 and move.

Another point is that if you can’t make 14g/hr you clearly are not going to cap out shards in 3 hours, so again the comparison still holds true.

If people still choose to dig their head in the sand so be it, glad Anet will ignore their cries.

No – they can’t. Do you know why? Because somehow in the way he sees it if an inexperienced or new player wants to do the content I’m doing I’m somehow obligated to take him along and help and teach him.

In his confusion he’s mistaken me for a tutorial system that Anet never made. Because my playtime, satisfaction or enjoyment of the game don’t matter – what matters is that “new players get into raids lel”.

The raids are there – you can open them anytime.
The LFG tool is there – you’re free to use it.
The forums are here – you can look for a guild ( or use reddit, or google).

You have the tools to fix your problem – but do it yourself – don’t expect others to.

Yep, exactly, they feel entitled to an on-demand teacher who will hold their hand through the game. Unfortunately for them this god given birthright that they imagine they have does not exist and they get salty when people don’t respect it.

Perhaps one day these people will finally understand that it is not acceptable to demand that a total stranger sacrifices their time and entertainment to sit there and teach you. It is 100% their choice whether they want to do that or not, not yours, and flaming them when they choose not to is the real toxic and mean ideology.

You’re thinking too much about the Legendary Armor. While that will be an issue, no doubt, that will only affect the people what enjoy Legendary Journeys, and don’t enjoy the Raid. Yes, that group will become alienated, and is it’s own subset, and there is a good chance that they also will be driven from the game. An Unfortunate loss, perhaps, but they are not the group I am talking about.

My main issue it’s the ability to Buy Ascended Weapons/Armor with Raid Tokens, (AKA: Magnetite Shard), thus bypassing all RNG and Crafting Grind.

That is what makes Raids the ‘End Game’ content, because you can’t buy Ascended Weapons/Armor with any other currency.

Now if they put in a vendor where players could buy Ascended Armor/Weapons from Fractals (Which would make sense) and change it so that The Glorious and Triumphant Armor from the WvW/sPvP Reward Tracks was Ascended as opposed to Exotic, that would equalize the game quite a bit.

But right now, Raids give players the ability to simply buy Ascended Armor/Weapon, for less gold then it costs to make an Insignia.

I actually support the idea of being able to buy ascended boxes via maybe pristine fractal relics or putting them into the wvw/pvp tracks (assuming ofc that they balance the time value of them all).

A quick analysis you may find of interest however:

Farming gold to craft ascended weapons:

- AB multilooting is consistently 40-50g for approximately 1 hour of playtime assuming you are the commander (generally 50mins-1hr if not).
- Gathering runs at current rates can yield 25g per hour. Fractal 40 farm can yield similar rates.
– An ascended 1h weapon is approximately 104g on average (with a low standard deviation) taking into account the best potential gold value of laurels for recipes etc. An ascended 2h weapon is on average approximately 120g.

Therefore under AB methods it would take you 2.08 – 2.6 hours to accrue enough gold to craft a 1h ascended weapon and 2.4 – 3 hours for a 2h weapon.

Under gathering methods it would take 4.16 hours for a one handed weapon and 4.8 hours for a 2h weapon.

Getting ascended weapons via raids:

Let’s say it takes 3 hours to cap out on shards, a reasonable estimate for an experienced and skilled group including organisational time and a short break. For this you get 100 shards. It costs 250 shards + 15g for a single handed weapon, 500 + 30g for a 2h.

So to obtain a one handed weapon it would take you 7.5 hours to get enough shards and around 0.3 of an hour worth of AB, a total of about 7.8 hours.

For a 2h weapon it’s even worse, it would take 15 hours to get the shards and 0.6 hours of AB, a total of 15.6 hours.

As this simple analysis demonstrates, the quickest (and easiest in this case) of obtaining ascended gear is through farming gold and for weapons at least, holds true as long as you are making 14g/hr + which is easily doable via many many sub-optimal methods.

Of course there’s going to be someone who tries to pick holes with the 3 hours for a raid and say it can be done in 2 but even then as long as you are farming gold as efficiently as you would be farming those raids you will obtain it quicker via farming gold.

Thank you for clearly showing the problem here, see, anyone that wants to raid, has to deal with 9 other entitled jerks to do the content. See the problem now?

Or they could find like-minded people of which there seem to be plenty of on these forums and play with them instead? (Pretty obvious why they don’t want to do that but that’s a different matter).

If your “problem” is group content then MMO’s aren’t the genre for you, there are plenty of single player games where you don’t have to interact with anyone. Expecting an MMO to relinquish its group content is amongst the dumbest things you’ve said.

Firstly there are always going to be a couple of bad apples in any game mode, especially one which has a higher chance of failure.

However, assuming this was a training raid (otherwise I don’t know why they picked you up), you would be surprised at the degree of variance between player skill and knowledge who want to try and have never tried before. You legitimately will get many many people who have not watched or read anything, do not even know what toughness is or crowd control or what half their skills do and generally are not at the standard to be doing T3 fractals let alone raids. These people make it nearly impossible to teach the players who genuinely are at end-game level knowledge without the experience in raids and essentially ruin the experience for everyone. My guess is that the leader of your training run was dealing with many people like this and snapped eventually.

We are all humans at the end of the day and repeatedly getting your training runs for end game content sabotaged by players who haven’t taken the time to go through the basics of the game can be frustrating (some people cannot control their frustration as well as others). Of course I don’t advocating slandering people but at least it was done to vent without them hearing it which is not so bad, surely you have vented about people in game or in life.

There’s plenty of build diversity in raids but the point is you should know the class and the encounter and see if you need to tailor your build according to the respective mechanics. There’s a difference between using a different build to combat some mechanics or just using a different build because you don’t like being the same as others. As you have no clue about the mechanics and no experience fighting the bosses, surely the best thing you could do is as Dinosaurs says, start with a cookie cutter build (PS) and then see whether the team is lacking something after having a few attempts at the boss once you actually know why you want to change your build.

Well said OP, raids have been a tremendous success and I’m excited to see the theme of the next one! The whiners will whine at anything as they clearly enjoy the thrill of campaigning against other people’s happiness!

Yep, keep it up Anet! Raids have definitely invigorated my Guild Wars 2 experience and I have never enjoyed something as much in the game!

Rising Dusk.2408:

Don’t forget that a lot of what we’re currently seeing in these raid releases was developed by the raid team well before HoT was released. It’s not entirely truthful to assume that they’re churning out everything back-to-back with no prior work involved. They were staggered very intentionally to ensure that a constant stream of raid content was being released periodically.

I expect we’ll see a ton more content in other areas of the game come the July/August summer seasonal update. We know for a fact that at least 1 new Fractal is coming out this year, for instance. Just hold it together until then.

Summed it up very well, the raid team released their content over intervals rather than in one go at the start, the open world stuff was released in one massive chunk at the start. Pretty sure people wouldn’t have been as salty now if they staggered the new maps but then it wouldn’t have been much of an expansion so they probably would have complained then instead!

If they had released the entire raid in one go with the release of HoT I certainly wouldn’t have expected another until nearly a year after, clearly that’s the time it takes for the company to get stuff done as seen over the years, I don’t know why the open world PvE’rs can’t grasp this.

Many non-raiders attitudes on the forums:

A bakery has my favourite cake in stock today. I buy it, eat it and am happy.

The bakery does not have your favourite cake in stock today. They will be in stock tomorrow. You are unhappy.

You tell the baker that they should stop making my favourite cakes and ONLY make your favourite cakes in an attempt to never make it go out of stock again. I disagree with you.

Is it not worse to nullify some people’s enjoyment to ensure that other people don’t have to wait a little while for their enjoyment? I think so, and am disgusted by the people advocating it, I’m glad Anet ignore them and are already working on a new raid.

Quartermaster Ival at Mellaggan’s Valor waypoint allows you to hand in as many items as you want to get provisioner tokens. Essentially handing in an item to him makes Steward Katren at Faren’s Flyer waypoint think you’ve already handed a weapon to her and also therefore means that you can keep handing in items to Ival. For purposes of investigation I used Apothecary’s Noble Shoulders as the hand in item to Ival.

There has also been a case in the past where a friend reported the same issue between Westwatch and Southwatch provisioners respectively but that has subsequently been fixed. I am unsure about the others but it is worth checking out as I have only ever handed in the items in a particular order (hence doing a different order could reveal the same issue between other provisioners).

Vinceman.4572:

Holy sh.., d you even know that many of the very good PvP-players (not talking about the few “esports guys”) are the ones who are posting in this subforum because they usually play PvE and belong to the speedrun community? I guess not. This ignorance hurts…

And second paragraph leads to absurdism when you notice that PvP is way more toxic than PvE. So after your logic PvP is far-out from thrill and challenge.

I wouldn’t bother Vince, he’s just as bad as Ohoni lol, can’t even begin to fathom other people’s opinions and motivations if they’re different to his own.

No it won’t do anything if you already have 100%.

sluringshhh.7403:

Okay before you guys start saying that ascended armor takes just the right amount of time Please dont get angry at the people who dont agree with you.

Heres my problem yes ascended armor should take time and defication but should it be so long that it takes some people over a month to achieve. And alot of the time getting it is just saving up the gold and laurels to get the recipes. Now the argument ive been hearing is that ascended armor should take time because it keeps noobs from raiding therefore making a better experience. My counterargument is that logging once a day to get dailies is not a increase or decrease in skill and in fact will let those noobs get to raiding easier. To get to my point is i want ascended armor to not require laurels, but instead some kindve fun challenge to complete with a party of five that rewards the recipes, and then requiring youto still make your own ascended gear. Now i know that laurels are the most valuable currency in the game and all, but i dont believe that logging in once a day to get my ascended armor is fun it feels stupid and grindy two things arena net tries their best to remove from the game.

Now i dont know if my idea is any better but i drastically want this system to change for the better as many cannot experience some of the game without ascended.

The thing is ascended armor is account bound allowing you to use one set of gear on multiple characters, for example I use my heavy set on my warrior, guardian and revenant.

It is also possible to easily swap stats of ascended armor so getting any ascended drop is great. It is also great when new stat combinations are released as you can swap to them if you want.

Add this to the increase in offense and larger increase in defense (a major benefit to the armor in for example wvw but nearly irrelevant in pve) as well as the ability to gain more agony resist (and even more stats) via infusions means that ascended armor needs to be priced as it is.

The issue here I think (assuming here) is that you only want the armor for the small increase in offense (probably the reason why guilds are asking for it even though it’s a little over the top) and for that reason alone you feel that it is overpriced. It’s like you want a bike chain but the only way for you to get it is to buy a bike. All I can say is that the other benefits of ascended armor are excellent and if you play this game a lot in the future it’s likely you’ll make use of those benefits and won’t feel like you’ve payed too much.

So many people don’t know what a trend/correlation is, it’s hilarious.

“A Positive correlation is a relationship between two variables in which both variables move in tandem. A positive correlation exists when as one variable decreases, the other variable also decreases and vice versa.”

Read through what I say carefully without skipping stuff out due to your rage tinted glasses:

In our case people who discriminate based on achievement points (or li’s, whatever same principle) have identified a positive correlation up to a certain threshold (imo around 3-5k) between the achievement points of a player and their technical ability within the game.

Let’s think of a common, truly special argument that tilts me further than the tower of pisa:

Argument 1:

‘But just last week I saw a guy with 32kAP and 40kAP and they were rubbish at t4 fracs’

- Firstly these are known as outliers and their existence does not prove that the correlation does not exist. Secondly as I already mentioned most people agree that the positive correlation ends at a certain threshold (imo 3-5k). I know that most people agree because otherwise you would see lfg’s asking for 30k+ AP which you do not.

Let me put it this way; I say that a trend I observed is that there is a positive correlation between the ability of people to play basketball and their respective height up to a threshold of 6ft5 (totally made up number, its an example). You then say “no you are wrong idiot, I played with a 6ft10 guy and he was awful!” Can you see how stupid you sound?

Outliers can also be on the other side of the correlation, i.e highly skilled players who have low AP. Again, stating that you know someone or are someone like this does not mean the trend does not exist.

I know people with low AP can be skilled and I know people with higher AP can be less skilled. But I have observed over my playtime that it is more likely that the player with low AP is worse than the player with high AP.

More likely

The only valid argument to this is if you have observed over your playtime that this positive correlation does not exist. In that case we simply disagree on our observations and nothing either one of us say to the other will change that. It just so happens that the majority of the player base agrees with me not you and hence why you whine here on the forums.

That is all.

staff is only that high on gorsaval. For everything else if you go practical dps a thief will beat an ele and the thief will have more cc. If you bring focus for the untility as an ele you lose more dps. This isn’t to say ele is bad they are very good, but thief is also really good for dps and break bars. Thief is also far more survivable. So unless you are at gorsaval or need the swirling winds at sloth, there is nothing wrong with taking a thief over an ele

Wash the pain away is enough of a reason on its own to pick ele over thief imo for every encounter so far but some other things ele offers which are incredible:

Slothasor: More than 1/4 full group projectile destruction uptime, AoE instant stun break for fear, superior AoE damage, AoE healing.

Bandit trio: Far superior AoE damage. Can proc oil slick easily (less important).

Matthias: Easy clearing of icy patches, higher range (d/w) to allow for higher dps uptime when cyclones and ghosts pass through and when you have a bomb. Easy potential for multiple fast group condi cleanses if required. Fast AoE healing. Wipe avoidance potential with rebound. Mist form to get back to group if downed at well/wall.

Gorseval: Higher dps by a decent margin, easy clearing of orbs, aoe instant stun break for people who fail to dodge. Wipe avoidance potential during cc with rebound. AoE healing.

Vale guardian: Good seeker control with flash freeze. Wipe avoidance potential with rebound. AoE healing. Mist form to get back to group if ported and downed.

Sabetha: Better cleave, AoE healing. Mist form to get back to group if downed away from group (e.g on the way back from cannon or due to a bomb or something).

Hopefully the next raid wing implements mechanics uniquely solvable with thief as I would like to see it played more. I’m not an expert on thief so if you want to give some advantages of thief for each encounter feel free, note that the advantages I’ve listed are for benefiting PuG groups.

STIHL.2489:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

. If you can’t overlook this minority then I guess sticking to environments where failure isn’t as strong a possibility is the best option and there isn’t anything wrong with that.

It’s never a question of failure, It’s a question of elitism and exclusion.

The two have nothing in common.

Actually the two have everything in common. If I want to go kill (for example) a hero point champion I’m not going to vet the people I do the champion with, I’m not going to expect that they don’t constantly mess up, why? Because the possibility of failure is minute even if many people mess up. If I want to go kill Matthias I am going to vet the people I do Matthias with and I am going to expect that they don’t mess up constantly because if people mess up constantly there is a very very strong possibility of failure.

I don’t know anyone who likes to fail. You used the term ‘fear’ which is a little dramatic but is still the same dislike of failure.

STIHL.2489:

Coconut.7082:

STIHL.2489:

Neox.3497:

Yeah because you can compare the fail rate of raids with dungeons and fractals. Haha nice joke.

The only joke in this topic is that people think Raids are special or hard.

I disagree, I think the only joke in this topic is that people who never cleared any raid think they are so easy, and also use it as an excuse to not try raiding!

Everyone on this topic made it clear it was the community surrounding Raids that made Raids unappealing.

Your post does a solid job of reinforcing their feelings on the matter.

I mean to be fair you’ve made several sweeping statements about the raiding community and raids with very little experience. You’ve belittled a vast swathe of friendly and nice people in labeling the entire raiding community as toxic. You’ve said that raids are easy without managing to complete any (even though you’ve tried and failed arguably the easiest one multiple times), again belittling anyone who thinks they are difficult (completed or not) and that people never do it because of the challenge, obviously you the almighty one know the ‘true’ reason why many in the raiding community repeat the raids several times a week after they’ve reached the magnetite shard cap and got the kills on the bosses even though it literally costs them gold.

Frankly you’ve already been more ‘toxic’ and judgmental than the vast majority of people I’ve raided with.

However, let me ask you a question. Why should I go through the effort to learn Wing2, if I already feel that the Raid game mode inspires a toxic community, and because of that, is not something I want to support?

I mean there’s nothing I can really say that’s going to persuade you if you’ve already formed conclusions, all I can say is that we have differing opinions on the raiding community, I started raiding 2 months ago, PuG’s multiple times every week (even after cap + kill) and from what I can remember I’ve seen 4 people get spiteful at others. I’m confident I’ve raided with over 100 different people and the vast majority are quiet/shy with some being confident leaders/shotcallers.

In my experience people who got impatient with the rate of learning of less experienced players generally very rarely raged at them but simply told the group thanks and that they need to go and then left the squad to join a different squad.

There will always be a tiny minority of spiteful people in a setting where failure is a strong possibility. I’ve seen much worse in WvW and PvP than in raids for this reason. Hell I’ve seen people rage at others in the HoT meta events because of this. If you can’t overlook this minority then I guess sticking to environments where failure isn’t as strong a possibility is the best option and there isn’t anything wrong with that.

My reasons for not getting into raiding is, honestly, the biggest one was the community turned me off, that was simply not the group of people I wanted to spend time with, based on my sampling of them. To a far lesser extent, while I could find myself doing it for the loot, it did not seem like fun “Green/Dodge” is not my idea of what a Raid should be. Maybe the other Bosses are more dynamic, but, honestly, after VG, can’t say I’m feeling the urge to see what Monkey Dance the others really are.

I’d just like to chime in and say that VG does not represent other raid bosses very well, salvation pass especially has a much different feel to it that I think you would like where everyone has nearly equal responsibility (no set tank, various mechanics for everyone). VG is a snoozefest for 5 players but reasonably difficult for the other 5. If you haven’t played as the tank or the green circle role then I don’t think you fully appreciate the challenge they face either (maybe you have, if so ignore this).

Finally do I think VG is more fun than some T4 fracs? No tbh, mechanics feel too forced in a way but I believe it’s like that to act as a raid introduction making the mechanics super obvious (gimmicky). Do I think Slothasor is more fun than some T4 fracs? Most certainly, it’s my favourite fight in the game by far.

Guess I’m just trying to get you to give wing 2 a shot before writing off raids as a whole as in my experience it’s way more fun!

I really do sympathize with you, Anet have just changed fractals with HoT to make the old 40-50 fractals the new 76-100 fractals and just put in more agony requirements to exclude non-HoT players from the very highest levels. It’s clearly a move to entice players to buy the expansion but in this case I feel it’s just a bit distasteful. I guess the only consolation I can give you is that the difficulty is pretty much the same throughout the tier 4 fractals (extremely nominally harder) so you can still do essentially the hardest fractal content with the +5’s rather than the +7’s.

I know the feeling, I came back to the game just over a month ago and wanted to try the raids, it was very difficult getting groups at the start but fortunately a raid training guild got me my first couple of kills. I then got more confidence and pugged vg, gorseval and slothasor whenever there were lfg’s that didn’t specify li’s (from my experience there were plenty). Importantly I did this more than just once a week for the kill as I loved raids and so got a lot of experience with those bosses even with a relatively low amount of insights. Eventually on Mondays I joined full wing 1 runs which always went super smooth until sabetha and so people were willing to be patient with me on sabetha due to my performance earlier in the raid. Similarly now I’ve got to the stage where I can kill trio and matthias too and expect to kill all 6 bosses every week. My legendary insights? 20 and I’ve never had to lie about them.

Basically my advice to you is a) have more than one class that is able to raid with as much ascended gear as possible b) regularly check lfg whenever waiting around in lions arch etc. c) Start with a couple of bosses and actually learn the fights properly to the point where you can carry inexperienced players (I still join training runs to help out).

To be honest you’ve already past the biggest hurdle imo, just sneak another li and pugging past 10li will open more doors. Don’t give up, I know it can be disheartening!

Oh, I don’t give a kitten about Person A or his shiny medal. Person A is irrelevant to me. I do want the armor that I want though.

Oh but you do though! Just to clarify if it wasn’t clear enough….Person A are the people currently doing raids, the shiny medal is the unique rewards from raids (skins and currently legendary armor). You wouldn’t even be on this thread arguing if you didn’t!

Btw calling everyone who aspires to do anything challenging a waste of human tissue doesn’t exactly seems like a very reasoned argument does it?

Why study for an exam and get an A? I could just as easily take 3 easy mode exams and that should give me the same A grade right!

Why be promoted for being good at your job? I should be given a promotion for going on reddit for three times as long as that guy did his job for!

Guy 1 goes to a river and sits for two hours before catching a fish. Guy 2 comes along and wants a fish. Guy 1 tells Guy 2 that it took him 2 hours to catch the fish. Guy 2 says kitten that, I cba with that and goes and demands the river deliver him a fish whilst he goes to watch tv for 2 hours.

Frankly you are just an entitled brat who thinks they deserve everything without actually doing anything.

But I’m not taking ANYTHING from you! You have no justification to complain! It’s like you have a $100 bill, and I say “Can I have a $100 bill too?”
“Mine? No.”
“No, not yours, a new one will be given to me, you can keep yours.”
“Still, no, I like that you don’t have one.”
“Well how about a $20 bill?”
“Nope, I can only be happy if I have this $100 bill and you have nothing.”

I’m sorry, but that is not a reasonable position to hold your ground on

.

I love how you used the specific part of the analogy and left out extremely relevant parts.

Here’s an analogy that describes the situation better:

Analogy:

There is a city with a number of people living there. There is lots to do in the city, lots of places of eat, cinemas, clubs, leisure centres, something for everyone. One day the mayor sets up a city marathon for those people that are very keen for a challenge. In order to attract attention to the marathon and reward the citizens taking part he decides to give a shiny medal to those that complete it. Person A and B both hear this news and tell their friends that they like the medal and decide they want it. Person A goes to the sports shop and buys running shoes and goes to the gym for a month to train in preparation for the marathon. Person B feels like this is too much effort and goes to the cinema with some friends to watch a film and relaxes for the month.

It’s marathon day. Both Person A and B are at the start line ready to go. The whistle blows and they both head off. At the start there seems to be no difference in terms of position between both Person A and Person B. 2 miles into the marathon however Person B discovers that it would take a lot more effort than she’d anticipated and so decides to call it quits. Person A however is really determined to achieve the goal that she set. Person A, after a long and difficult time finishes the marathon. She is greeted by the mayor at the finish line and is given the shiny medal.

Person A feels really happy and rewarded for her hard work and shows the medal to her friends down the pub. It just so happens that Person B sees the medal and is overcome by envy. She then goes to the mayor and demands that an easier race be made (lets say 5km) with the same medal as the marathon being given as a reward for completing the easy race 3 times.

Hypothetical 1 – The mayor caves in to Person B’s demands.

The mayor then arranges a number of easier 5km races and after completing three of them the participants get the same shiny medal as those who completed the marathon. Person B does three of the easier races, gets the medal and goes to the pub to show off the medal. Person A sees the medal and realises that it is exactly the same medal that she got from the marathon. Person A now feels cheated out of her accomplishment and has nothing to prove how much effort it took to complete the marathon. Person A now no longer feels like the medal is worth showing off and puts it in the attic.

This is your wish Ohoni, it ruins the enjoyment of those people who like challenges just because of your seething jealousy.

Hypothetical 2 – The mayor compromises.

The mayor then arranges a number of easier 5km races and after completing one of them the participants get a certificate saying that they did so. Person B does the easier race, gets the certificate and goes to the pub to show off their accomplishment. Person A sees the certificate and congratulates Person B. Person A and B talk about their running experiences and became friends. Person A still feels good about completing the marathon and feels that sense of satisfaction every time she looks at the medal. She puts the medal in a cabinet in the living room of her house. Person B does the same with her certificate and feels proud of her achievement.

This is actually the compromise, not your self-centred proposal. This is what should happen if there is enough interest from people who can’t complete the marathon.

Hypothetical 3 – The mayor refuses entirely.

The mayor tells Person B that there simply hasn’t been enough requests to warrant arranging easier races. Person B remains unhappy and jealous.

This is what should happen if there isn’t enough interest from people who can’t complete the marathon.

I recently came back to Guild Wars and have started to raid last week. It has been a struggle to find people willing to take on new players and took a while but fortunately there were people who were willing to accept me (raid teaching guild and PuGs). I can honestly say it’s been the most fun I’ve had in PvE in my entire GW lifetime, even the few hours of failing was way more fun than the majority of other PvE in my opinion of course and the feeling of finally killing a boss is the best buzz I’ve had in the game. I will continue raiding and will get the achievements for the legendary armor.

Do I think it was a good idea, putting legendary armor behind the raids?

Probably not, as it is one of the true end game goals of many players who don’t want to raid but play the game a lot. Crucially this is only the case because the previous legendary weapons were not gated behind difficult content, so asking a whole swathe of people to change their entire aspiration that they had become accustomed to is a tad unfair. If say, from release the legendaries had been locked behind hard content then they would not have been the goals for these players and people wouldn’t have complained.

Do I think having unique rewards from raids, unobtainable any other way is good?

I think it is essential. Before I took my long break from the game, my only interest in PvE was high level fractals (this was before the fractured update, so fractal 50 or 48 or w/e it was). It was never very profitable in terms of liquid gold and the biggest reason why people did them over other things was to get the fractal skins. Most of the skins looked rubbish but do you know why people still wore them? It’s the prestige you get from having something relatively exclusive and difficult to obtain. It’s a sign saying, hey I did this thing that was kinda tough and I did it a lot!

Now you can get them for 20 pristines each! Hooray now everyone has them and any prestige or exclusivity has eroded entirely and so nobody cares about them at all!

The same thing would happen if easy mode raids with access to the same rewards are implemented. There are people who collect skins for prestige (rarity usually) or fashion (sometimes both if lucky), let the people who want their prestige be happy too please!

Golden rule: A rare and prestigious skin is not a rare and prestigious skin if everyone can get it!

Thanks for letting us know and although it doesn’t affect me as I was never going for any of the new legendaries I’m sure a lot of people were really looking forward to them as it is one the game’s true end-game goals so there’s obviously going to be a lot of resentment on here. One improvement for next time I would say is this; if you give each class one more weapon as part of their elite specialization and hype that up considerably and balance those weapon’s skills to be highly competitive making them see a great deal of use, make sure that those are the ones that you design the first new legendaries for. I guarantee you that you’d have had a lot more people trying to make the 2nd gen legendaries if you did this and maybe then you wouldn’t feel the need to indefinitely delay the others due to low player involvement (and even if you did, a much bigger chunk of the playerbase would have been satisfied already!)

Anyway, I’m still looking forward to any upcoming fractal changes and the backpiece so hope to hear soon about progress on that!

Hi there, would love to join Modern Family (I’m on deso)! I’ve come back to the game a couple of weeks ago and really want to get into raids but don’t have the experience which PuG’s require! I usually do fractals and WvW.

The zealot, final boss from hotw p3 (jellyfish one) would be quite a challenge!

The rewards aren’t ridiculous as you seem to think. They may need some slight tweaking but overall it’s ok. People who want to make good gold from dungeons don’t just spam cof p1 and p2 because they know that there are several other paths which are as easy/easier/shorter than cof p2 and the daily reward per path is now better than spamming the same dungeon repeatedly. People speedrun AC,TA fwd/fwd and up, SE 1 and 3, CoF 1 and 2, CoE, Hotw 1 with ease. If anything they should reduce the AC gold to be in line with the others but maybe it’s to entice new players to do explorable dungeons. I guess the point you’re trying to make is valid, but your opinion of dungeon difficulty is a bit narrow. Look at gw2lfg during peak times for ‘speedrun’ groups and you’ll find them almost entirely only for the paths I stated (and arah ofc), it’s for a reason.